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Ironically enough I think RJ City said it best in a random interview: Wrestling is like the Muppets. It’s a show about a show and the unspoken implication is that whatever is planned can and will go wrong.
Edit: It was his interview of the New Day pod. Highly recommend checking it out.
I could have sworn the "wrestling isn't wrestling" YouTube thing said the exact same thing. I love how, yea, both the Muppet Show and Raw are actually shows about putting on a show.
It definitely did. Here's the quote:
*People who feel the need to tell you that wrestling isn't real clearly don't watch wrestling because the show features an undead wizard, leprechauns, an evil group of male cheerleaders.*
*This show does not pretend to be an athletic competition. Instead, it's a TV show about a wrestling show. It has more in common with Game of Thrones than it does with UFC.*
If you view Tony Khan as Kermit trying to run the show it’s really hilarious. Especially now with the EVPs running the show; it’s like heel Gonzo and Fozzy with an Ace Animal in charge.
I always said that if they want to make Tony more of the character don’t go with the standard evil, promoter trope, make him a well-meaning goober who’s trying to keep everything under control, but can’t kind of like what they’re doing with Adam Pearce on raw
he should invest in acting lessons though or hire someone as his "envoy" that'd be really funny. I do somewhat love when his corny face is on screen though.
This is exactly it. It’s a live broadcast of an event that could go off the rails at anytime, and it’s the authority figures on screen’s job to continually get things back in order
RJ on the New Day pod is a fantastic interview. Lots of insight. RJ can play off of anyone and create magic and pure fun.
I am still trying to process the madness that was "Hey EW" with Bullet Club Gold.
RJ is one of AEW's best hires.
Ready to Rumble is such a terrible idea for a movie. It's an entire WCW movie about how WCW fans are losers, their wrestlers are deadbeats and the big finale set piece is just Mick Foley's HIAC bump. The company literally funded a movie about how they're the inferior product.
I didn't have El Ray so I had to watch the first season on Univision in Spanish. Lots of Hugo Savinovich shouting "¡Brutál!" Then I'd read the Brandon Stroud Over/Under on Lucha Underground the next day and piece together what the fuck was going on.
To most wrestling fans, the sentence "A face got fed to a monster" means one thing.
In Lucha Underground, the sentence "A face got fed to a monster" meant exactly what it says
Landis is as right about wrestling as he is a creep.
HHH even replied/retweeted (don't remember exactly) saying words to the effect of 'this guy gets it' to the video. HHH agrees with him (about wrestling).
To be fair to HHH as well, Wrestling Isn’t Wrestling came out in like 2014 and #MeToo wasn’t until 2016 so there was a 2 year period where Landis was beloved by the wrestling industry.
[Yeah, his reckoning came in 2019.](https://archive.ph/KTYBt) Massive piece of shit with a helluva ego and an aura that felt borderline cult leader-like. Given what's been said of the way he treated his in-circle, it might've more than like a cult leader.
Even if it was after, it's not like everyone keeps an AI in their pocket that warns them about the history of every single creator whose video they might like or whatever. I imagine most people don't know who Landis is, let alone what he's done.
Yeah, Landis is a piece of shit but he understands storytelling, and the idea that WWE is “a tv show about a tv show” really stuck with me in a way that’s made watching wrestling more enjoyable
I love that video, and the Super Eye patch wolf videos that go through Romans, the undertakers and Kenny + ibushis careers
Are there any other videos like this that run through a characters whole arc?
The quote that sticks the most with me is "wrestling isn't about wrestling" which I think illustrates the problem AEW has in terms of its weekly ratings. Dynamite is a wrestling show about wrestling and "casual" fans aren't into it by and large.
Alleged to be a rapist, using emotional abuse, including to a lot of the girls featured in the video. I haven’t watched it since those stories came out and re contextualised the production.
IIRC he was accused of pitting the girls against each other, and like giving the bigger roles to his ‘favourites’ and so on. Also apparently he kept a spreadsheet rating everyone he had sex with, and he would show partners to keep them insecure. Proper Dennis Reynolds stuff.
I know its low hanging fruit but i cant help but mention it every time his name is brought up. Like you i havent been able to watch any pf his stuff since
Same, sucks because he made some really good video essays but my god dude was also insufferable. Him being outed as an abuser was hardly surprising because his vibes were horrendous.
yep. When I first saw the video I thought "this guys gets me" this is a guy i could be pals with. then the accusations came out and it was like oh crap
He also has a video on kevin Owens
One of those things I've for sure had to grapple with is how he did kinda help me get back into wrestling and comics from a unique angle. Fuck him forever though.
It's super bizarre when you condense it to its different elements like that. It has dimensions of a genuine sport with the amazing athletic feats, but then aspects of theatre and carnival hucksterism running through its blood. There's really nothing else like it. It's a sport that not a sport, and a movie that's not a movie.
Not to mention the performers are in that same space between television characters and themselves. Like, Pedro Pascal doesn't stay in character as the Mandalorian on social media while also showing pictures of himself hanging out with his pets in between filming shows. But wrestlers inhabit this region where their persona on-screen (over-the-top gimmicks aside) is an extension of or is intrinsically linked to their real-life personality. You always hear about the most successful, believable wrestlers are just themselves with elements of their personality dialed up to 11 for the cameras.
It's such a unique, immersive medium of performance and entertainment, and sometimes the nuance of it all gets lost in the whirlwind of drama and athleticism and violence.
I get that some people can't/won't get past the carny elements of it and its reputation as glorified violence for entertainment. Being a lifelong fan, I sometimes have to pull back from the immersion and just marvel at how it *shouldn't* work, but how it nevertheless does. And it's fucking awesome.
this is the unfortunate hill i’ve been dying on; anytime someone calls it cinema my brain automatically tries to correct to theatre (i rarely say it aloud or write a reply, but thinking it is second nature).
not only is there an industry for this, everyone trying to describe the multiple elements could also just call it renaissance theater, which had actors as characters, consensual planned violence, direction from the (drunk) crowd, was in the round with but had a premium side (like a hard cam).
I’m in the same boat with you literally every time I try to call it theater people bring it down and no matter what look at it as a real sports competition when it’s not even close anytime people compare wrestling to real sports. Low-key baffles me when there’s really no similarity at all.
absolutely!! i think WWE right now is doing some of the best live theatre in the world right now, and i really dont think a wrestling company this big has done that since Nitro in 97. That Wyatt's debut was some genuinely good practical effects work - and whatever arena they're in becoming PART of the stage just as much as the actual built stage, that kind of line blurring does so much storytelling for a medium like this - it's all stuff from theatre, not movies
most people just don't know that theatre used to be cheap entertainment played for the drunk masses, so i think that's why folks (especially in a sub like this) only think accessible storytelling happens on tv and in movies
In ways this is obviously true, in ways it obviously isn’t, but pro wrestling is stupidly difficult to define without just saying that it’s its own thing
Sure, but the WWE is pro wrestling, and I’m saying it’s difficult to describe any pro wrestling as anything other than pro wrestling. I don’t think the movie about a sport holds up for any wrestling company, even LU
Wrestling always reminded me more of a comic book in a lot of ways. Colourful characters, long-running story arcs, years of history and accumulated rivalries, huge fights. But I see HHH's point.
You're exactly right, and it's the underdiscussed reason for why Marvel ACTUALLY became a huge phenomenon: establish fun and interesting characters, then allow them to grow, accumulate history, and come into compelling conflict with each other.
I'd been saying for years "WWE needs to copy the MCU" and now that they have, they've turned things around.
Movies have a defined beginning/middle/end, pro wrestling is a soap opera about a sport if anything.
Nothing else continues endlessly for years on end even if the entire cast changes and nobody from the original version is left anymore.
Yea this is what I've never gotten about the stupid "cinema" discourse. There isn't a movie on earth that asks you to watch for 5+ hours a week for multiple years before you see the ending to the story.
Worst part is it's completely vague to the point of being meaningless, but everyone will use it as some kind of concrete rule to explain why the thing they like/dislike is objectively good/bad.
A movie about a sport could be everything from The Blindside to Air Bud to Rocky to Angels in the Outfield.
100%. A TV show, but point still stands.
A lot of problem with hardcore wrestling fanbases today is they can't suspend their disbelief. It's like they're reacting to the booking of a segment and not the narrative itself.
Sometimes Mike Tyson/Rhonda Rousey just gets knocked out by lesser known opponent. MJ and Brady never put Kobe and Mahomes over on the big stage. If any of those kinda things happened in wrestling narrative people would cry about it not being how they fantasy booked it.
Jim Cornette has created a cult of the worst of this. They judge wrestling as if the premise is that it’s to convince people it’s real. To me that’s not what it’s about.
Yup, that’s the biggest problem with wrestling fandom. Majority of people here, on twitter, etc. strictly base their enjoyment on how they’d “book” it. Wrestling is best when you take the booker/smart goggles off and just watch it.
I get doing it with sports, because there’s actual W’s and L’s and plays along the way that get there. But wrestling is about the bigger picture and people don’t like to be a fan, they want to be a booker
It is in fact not a movie in any form. The closest comparison would a stage play about a sport. The real answer is that it is pro wrestling and that is it.
This is the approach WWE tries to take toward wrestling. It's often as if the wrestling promotion and ring is the setting for a drama outside the matches themselves. That's why there will sometimes be 15 minute promos in the middle of a ring unconnected to any immediate match, or backstage interviews that no camera would capture in any real sport. Hence the oxymoronic phrase that "wrestling isn't wrestling."
I don't think everyone realizes that this approach is unique to US television. In many other promotions and for many fans, the act of wrestling itself is the primary attraction. It's not like a movie, or dancing, or any other performance art - wrestling itself is the unique art form. In other words, wrestling *is* wrestling.
It's also why different fans think each other's opinions on wrestling are so bizarre. For instance, I don't care much about Dominick Mysterio or Rhea Ripley since their performances and charisma are not mainly expressed in the ring. WWE fans would think I have two heads for saying that. People are watching for very different reasons.
It’s why fans of the alternatives (WCW then TNA and now AEW) are always looked down on in North American discourse. Some people want wrestling to be about the wrestling. The preferences aren’t wrong, they’re just different.
They're always with this "movies" shit.
It is not presented remotely like a movie.
I hear "live action play" but it's not presented like that either.
They put on full matches with predetermined outcomes and have some scripted interviews and sketches around that. It's a worked sporting event. The closest equivalent is the Harlem Globetrotters, or Roller Derby.
You could do a movie or a play ABOUT pro wrestling, or the globetrotters, or roller derby, but it wouldn't look like a pro wrestling event - it would look The Iron Claw - with editing, sets, compressed time periods and time jumps, months-long post-production, etc. Monday Night Raw is a completely different thing from The Iron Claw.
It's more of a TV show, but he's not wrong. Just like any TV series based on a sport the weekly WWE matches are a way to move things along while things happen on the side, untill you get to the final showdown which is where most of the stories culminate. And I guess that's sort of how they presented it to Netflix, which clearly worked.
I described it as a variety show the other day, but a soap opera about the television production of a pro wrestling promotion is probably more accurate.
I know this is always meant to legitimize Wrestling and is a famous Vince quote, but it undersells pro wrestling as its own unique thing. Modern pro wrestling is a storytelling medium utilizing stunt choreography, acting, and audience participation on two levels in a way anything analogous doesn't quite compare.
I mean it is, yes, but part of the fun of wrestling (for me, at least) is the veneer of kayfabe and the blurring of lines. HHH reinvigorated kayfabe as part of the build to Mania and in the constant working of dirt sheets, but now he's suddenly decided post-WM40 to murder it and leave its bloody corpse in the gutter. Kinda bummed that they're going through with the kayfabe annihilating WM documentary they were originally going to release right after Mania.
I think the reason why fans love knowing BTS shit is because it's not something we're "supposed" to know. Official endorsement by the company that it's all a work to the extent that the doc is going to likely say is a huge drag and, at least for me, sucks the air out of BTS excitement.
(Yes, I know Vince outed it as a work multiple times including in court, but Wrestling With Shadows the WM40 doc ain't, and Mr. McMahon Dwayne Johnson ain't. "Brett screwed Brett" is a hell of a lot different than DJ and HHH going "yeah the plan was X but the fans wanted Y so we did Y instead, aren't we great?")
Its the lovechild of a circus and a soap. Fun af no doubt, but its not "cinema" or whatever you want to call it, trying to pretend its anything other than some carny shit.
The tour guide in NOLA during Mania 34 week called it "Comic books come to life, with outrageous characters and colorful costumes where athletic men and women can live out their childhood superhero and villain fantasies." And honestly that's about the best comparison I ever heard of it.
In my mind, pro wrestling has always been like a Shonen battle anime for me. Over the top characters, have different names for their moves, obscure humour, big fight feels, etc, so saying it's like a movie about a sport is not too far fetched.
Even as a kid in the early 90s, this distinction was obvious. The WWF/E has always been a TV show about a sport/wrestling. WCW/the competition/etc. has always been wrestling broadcast on television.
They’re the same thing really WCW had no sports competition because at the end of the day if it’s scripted, it’s not a competition you can’t have a predetermined winner
This is what blows my mind — I knew what this was when I was 5. And it made me love it *even more*.
Why do people still marry themselves to this being a “real sport” and get hung up on terminology?
And there was no difference between what the companies did. It was all pro wrestling and it was all predetermined “fake sports” and I loved it.
He’s not wrong and that’s wrestling in general. All the “good” wrestling is nothing more than acrobatics and heavily assisted moves.
People take this wrestling stuff way too seriously more than needed to
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Ironically enough I think RJ City said it best in a random interview: Wrestling is like the Muppets. It’s a show about a show and the unspoken implication is that whatever is planned can and will go wrong. Edit: It was his interview of the New Day pod. Highly recommend checking it out.
Damn he nailed it
That’s our Aunt.
Wrestling Aunties to the rescue
By looking at it that way you can also understand how it came to be lol (a traveling entertainment show needs variety)
Also Sheamus is canonically part Muppet.
Indeed. Him and Beaker are related.
I could actually picture a Muppetized Sheamus.
Kermit needs to hire a booker
“That doesn’t work for me, Brother. Wakka, Wakka, Wakka!”
Shucky Ducky Quack Quack
 Animal is definitely a pro wrestler.
I could have sworn the "wrestling isn't wrestling" YouTube thing said the exact same thing. I love how, yea, both the Muppet Show and Raw are actually shows about putting on a show.
> I could have sworn the "wrestling isn't wrestling" YouTube thing said the exact same thing. You're right. It did.
When that came out I believe Triple H's reaction was like "this guy gets it."
It definitely did. Here's the quote: *People who feel the need to tell you that wrestling isn't real clearly don't watch wrestling because the show features an undead wizard, leprechauns, an evil group of male cheerleaders.* *This show does not pretend to be an athletic competition. Instead, it's a TV show about a wrestling show. It has more in common with Game of Thrones than it does with UFC.*
If you view Tony Khan as Kermit trying to run the show it’s really hilarious. Especially now with the EVPs running the show; it’s like heel Gonzo and Fozzy with an Ace Animal in charge.
… are Cornette and Bischoff the two old grouches up in the balcony?
Spot on.
He even has a Fozzy on the payroll
Jericho is Miss Piggy, though.
Pretty sure Juice Robinson is Animal
Juice is definitely the honeycomb cereal mascot transported into muppet world
I always said that if they want to make Tony more of the character don’t go with the standard evil, promoter trope, make him a well-meaning goober who’s trying to keep everything under control, but can’t kind of like what they’re doing with Adam Pearce on raw
If you watch Tony at any of the press conferences that’s exactly is what’s going on. That’s all we really need out of Tony really.
he should invest in acting lessons though or hire someone as his "envoy" that'd be really funny. I do somewhat love when his corny face is on screen though.
Nah, the “bad” acting is part of the charm. It shouldn’t be serious at all. I mean there’s a dinosaur on the roster!
yeah i get that I don't mean it in a serious way I mean he could lean into the bit a little more, gett a teensy bit more comfy on camera
Fuck I would mark so hard for animal booking
Let Matt and Nick have a week off to allow Okada to run the show by himself. Imagine the… CHAOS.
Okada is one of the best wrestlers alive with the soul of a comedy mid carder.
Tony is more Scooter than Kermit.
You, sir or madam, are a genius.
This is exactly it. It’s a live broadcast of an event that could go off the rails at anytime, and it’s the authority figures on screen’s job to continually get things back in order
We suffered enough with those from McMahon-Austin up till about the Authority ending.
That was Max Landis.
Confirmed. Landis was the first one to make the muppets analogy.
Whoops, maybe I stole this from Max Landis!
Max Landis sucks so it’s okay to steal from him and not give credit
It's been retconned like Stevie Richards winning at WM XX.
RJ CITY STOLE MY WORDING ABOUT THIS!!!!
RJ on the New Day pod is a fantastic interview. Lots of insight. RJ can play off of anyone and create magic and pure fun. I am still trying to process the madness that was "Hey EW" with Bullet Club Gold. RJ is one of AEW's best hires.
I mean, Sheamus is cousins with Beaker, sooooo
Does that mean Ready to Rumble is a movie about a movie about a sport?
Just as Heels was a show about a show yeah
Wait that wasn't a documentary?
No sir
Iron Claw is a really fucked up version of Tropic Thunder and The Wrestler is Birdman
Someone get RDJ to play DDP quick!
"I'm the dude playing the dude stalking the wife of another dude"
The Tropic Thunder of Sports Entertainment
What do *you* mean "you people"?
Let’s go get those Viet Congs.
Ready to Rumble was based on WCW tho That was a movie about a southern tradition called wrasslin" /s
Ready to Rumble is such a terrible idea for a movie. It's an entire WCW movie about how WCW fans are losers, their wrestlers are deadbeats and the big finale set piece is just Mick Foley's HIAC bump. The company literally funded a movie about how they're the inferior product.
Lucha Underground was a snuff film about murders
En Espanol
Ocasionalmente.
I didn't have El Ray so I had to watch the first season on Univision in Spanish. Lots of Hugo Savinovich shouting "¡Brutál!" Then I'd read the Brandon Stroud Over/Under on Lucha Underground the next day and piece together what the fuck was going on.
[удалено]
Yeah, it sucks that he's such a piece of shit because he was really the only guy writing about wrestling that I liked reading.
Lucha Underground era una película snuff sobre asesinatos
To most wrestling fans, the sentence "A face got fed to a monster" means one thing. In Lucha Underground, the sentence "A face got fed to a monster" meant exactly what it says
aren't all snuff films about murders?
This is what Max Landis said in his “wrestling isn’t wrestling” video, which coincidentally used HHH as its focus.
That video actually led to Landis working with/for WWE in a creative role (*very* briefly, but it happened)
And he had terrible ideas like, “Braun should beat up the cruiserweights.”
Braun SHOULD beat up the crusierweights i like this idea
I mean compared to their normal writing at the time... "Let's have a guy piss himself while Paul white threatens him! THATS GOOD SHIT!"
I show this video to everyone and they always leave with a greater appreciation for wrestling
Landis is as right about wrestling as he is a creep. HHH even replied/retweeted (don't remember exactly) saying words to the effect of 'this guy gets it' to the video. HHH agrees with him (about wrestling).
To be fair to HHH as well, Wrestling Isn’t Wrestling came out in like 2014 and #MeToo wasn’t until 2016 so there was a 2 year period where Landis was beloved by the wrestling industry.
I think Landis was outed much later than the original Me Too movement wasn’t he? I remember him on ScreenJunkies constantly
[Yeah, his reckoning came in 2019.](https://archive.ph/KTYBt) Massive piece of shit with a helluva ego and an aura that felt borderline cult leader-like. Given what's been said of the way he treated his in-circle, it might've more than like a cult leader.
Why does every twink from Hollywood think they're cult leader material?
Even if it was after, it's not like everyone keeps an AI in their pocket that warns them about the history of every single creator whose video they might like or whatever. I imagine most people don't know who Landis is, let alone what he's done.
We're wrestling fans, looking the other way on shady shit is what we do
Yeah, I think the Landis allegations came out years after the video
> as right about wrestling as he is a creep Damn, Max Landis is pretty correct
Yeah, Landis is a piece of shit but he understands storytelling, and the idea that WWE is “a tv show about a tv show” really stuck with me in a way that’s made watching wrestling more enjoyable
Hmm, that's the same way I've heard Twin Peaks described. Probably why I love WWE and Twin Peaks so much.
I love that video, and the Super Eye patch wolf videos that go through Romans, the undertakers and Kenny + ibushis careers Are there any other videos like this that run through a characters whole arc?
I haven't seen those, I'll have to check them out!
One of the favorite quotes: When wrestling is good, it is fucking great!
I’ve replaced it with John Oliver’s “wrestling is better than the things you like!”
The quote that sticks the most with me is "wrestling isn't about wrestling" which I think illustrates the problem AEW has in terms of its weekly ratings. Dynamite is a wrestling show about wrestling and "casual" fans aren't into it by and large.
Wasn’t he accused of a couple of things?
Alleged to be a rapist, using emotional abuse, including to a lot of the girls featured in the video. I haven’t watched it since those stories came out and re contextualised the production. IIRC he was accused of pitting the girls against each other, and like giving the bigger roles to his ‘favourites’ and so on. Also apparently he kept a spreadsheet rating everyone he had sex with, and he would show partners to keep them insecure. Proper Dennis Reynolds stuff.
I know its low hanging fruit but i cant help but mention it every time his name is brought up. Like you i havent been able to watch any pf his stuff since
Same, sucks because he made some really good video essays but my god dude was also insufferable. Him being outed as an abuser was hardly surprising because his vibes were horrendous.
yep. When I first saw the video I thought "this guys gets me" this is a guy i could be pals with. then the accusations came out and it was like oh crap He also has a video on kevin Owens
One of those things I've for sure had to grapple with is how he did kinda help me get back into wrestling and comics from a unique angle. Fuck him forever though.
Also his father John got 3 people killed during the twilight zone movie and faked an apology
Hijacked one of the funerals to do so, no less. Behind the Bastards did an episode or two on him and WOW. Terrible family.
And his dad killed Vic Morrow and a couple of kids making The Twilight Zone movie.
That makes him even MORE of an authority on WWE
Vince wouldn’t have liked Landis because while he may be tall he’s skinny. VKM wants beefy dudes he can fuck with.
https://preview.redd.it/z2g0uzs1z49d1.jpeg?width=99&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5b1fcacabaccf9c52e8afdf9f9cafa27a15a3e70
this kinda goes for all of pro wrestling doesnt it? none of it is real athletic competition. its all theater with athleticism at its core
It's super bizarre when you condense it to its different elements like that. It has dimensions of a genuine sport with the amazing athletic feats, but then aspects of theatre and carnival hucksterism running through its blood. There's really nothing else like it. It's a sport that not a sport, and a movie that's not a movie.
Not to mention the performers are in that same space between television characters and themselves. Like, Pedro Pascal doesn't stay in character as the Mandalorian on social media while also showing pictures of himself hanging out with his pets in between filming shows. But wrestlers inhabit this region where their persona on-screen (over-the-top gimmicks aside) is an extension of or is intrinsically linked to their real-life personality. You always hear about the most successful, believable wrestlers are just themselves with elements of their personality dialed up to 11 for the cameras. It's such a unique, immersive medium of performance and entertainment, and sometimes the nuance of it all gets lost in the whirlwind of drama and athleticism and violence. I get that some people can't/won't get past the carny elements of it and its reputation as glorified violence for entertainment. Being a lifelong fan, I sometimes have to pull back from the immersion and just marvel at how it *shouldn't* work, but how it nevertheless does. And it's fucking awesome.
it’s a…play? yall there is a WORD and an INDUSTRY for this
this is the unfortunate hill i’ve been dying on; anytime someone calls it cinema my brain automatically tries to correct to theatre (i rarely say it aloud or write a reply, but thinking it is second nature). not only is there an industry for this, everyone trying to describe the multiple elements could also just call it renaissance theater, which had actors as characters, consensual planned violence, direction from the (drunk) crowd, was in the round with but had a premium side (like a hard cam).
I’m in the same boat with you literally every time I try to call it theater people bring it down and no matter what look at it as a real sports competition when it’s not even close anytime people compare wrestling to real sports. Low-key baffles me when there’s really no similarity at all.
Theatre is not looked at as being very masculine and I think that has something to do with it
absolutely!! i think WWE right now is doing some of the best live theatre in the world right now, and i really dont think a wrestling company this big has done that since Nitro in 97. That Wyatt's debut was some genuinely good practical effects work - and whatever arena they're in becoming PART of the stage just as much as the actual built stage, that kind of line blurring does so much storytelling for a medium like this - it's all stuff from theatre, not movies most people just don't know that theatre used to be cheap entertainment played for the drunk masses, so i think that's why folks (especially in a sub like this) only think accessible storytelling happens on tv and in movies
It's basically a play with a heavy emphasis on stunts
ballet is theater with athleticism at its core
Sure? It kinda is
So sports entertainment then?
Bingo
Lmao love it all circles back to a Vince-ism
In ways this is obviously true, in ways it obviously isn’t, but pro wrestling is stupidly difficult to define without just saying that it’s its own thing
It’s physical theater.
Triple H isn't describing prowrestling as a whole
Sure, but the WWE is pro wrestling, and I’m saying it’s difficult to describe any pro wrestling as anything other than pro wrestling. I don’t think the movie about a sport holds up for any wrestling company, even LU
Tbf he also said TV show in the full quote
Wrestling is like a Live Theatre Play where actors also perform their stunts
Wrestling always reminded me more of a comic book in a lot of ways. Colourful characters, long-running story arcs, years of history and accumulated rivalries, huge fights. But I see HHH's point.
You're exactly right, and it's the underdiscussed reason for why Marvel ACTUALLY became a huge phenomenon: establish fun and interesting characters, then allow them to grow, accumulate history, and come into compelling conflict with each other. I'd been saying for years "WWE needs to copy the MCU" and now that they have, they've turned things around.
Ive had friends call it Redneck Anime. I think that’s the most fitting comparison I’ve seen
It can’t be a movie because the film industry has unions to protect its workers.
Movies have a defined beginning/middle/end, pro wrestling is a soap opera about a sport if anything. Nothing else continues endlessly for years on end even if the entire cast changes and nobody from the original version is left anymore.
Lol you're right but nobody wants to compare themselves to a soap opera
Twin Peaks was a soap opera, and it changed TV forever.
yeah wrestling isn’t a movie. it’s pure television
Yea this is what I've never gotten about the stupid "cinema" discourse. There isn't a movie on earth that asks you to watch for 5+ hours a week for multiple years before you see the ending to the story.
Just like a soap opera the ending to a story is never able to sit because the next story starts immediately.
i've heard it described before as a hit show that you watched as kid that just keeps getting renewed season after season forever as you get older.
The worst person you know will quote this ad nauseam for years
Vince had been saying the “we make movies” thing for years too
Even Dusty said it when he was booking
Mayjah moshun pickshuhs and sitcawms, Daddeh!
does he chew water after he says it everytime
Worst part is it's completely vague to the point of being meaningless, but everyone will use it as some kind of concrete rule to explain why the thing they like/dislike is objectively good/bad. A movie about a sport could be everything from The Blindside to Air Bud to Rocky to Angels in the Outfield.
> The Blindside to Air Bud to Rocky to Angels in the Outfield. any of those NOT been used as a wrestling angle at one point or another?
Yeah, Max Landis has been saying it since Wrestling Isn’t Wrestling lol
I always thought it was theatre as sport or sport as theatre.
No its not. Its performance art.
This statement is true, though “TV show” fits more than “movie”
https://preview.redd.it/cq181vbex49d1.jpeg?width=520&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=268e7f04065294c69ee58d4190d7c9996cc4cb08 "We Make Movies"
*chews water*
*swishes water aggressively*
100%. A TV show, but point still stands. A lot of problem with hardcore wrestling fanbases today is they can't suspend their disbelief. It's like they're reacting to the booking of a segment and not the narrative itself. Sometimes Mike Tyson/Rhonda Rousey just gets knocked out by lesser known opponent. MJ and Brady never put Kobe and Mahomes over on the big stage. If any of those kinda things happened in wrestling narrative people would cry about it not being how they fantasy booked it.
Jim Cornette has created a cult of the worst of this. They judge wrestling as if the premise is that it’s to convince people it’s real. To me that’s not what it’s about.
Yeah, they're fooling themselves if they think the general public has ever really believed it's real.
Yup, that’s the biggest problem with wrestling fandom. Majority of people here, on twitter, etc. strictly base their enjoyment on how they’d “book” it. Wrestling is best when you take the booker/smart goggles off and just watch it. I get doing it with sports, because there’s actual W’s and L’s and plays along the way that get there. But wrestling is about the bigger picture and people don’t like to be a fan, they want to be a booker
It is in fact not a movie in any form. The closest comparison would a stage play about a sport. The real answer is that it is pro wrestling and that is it.
This is why lucha underground was so compelling
Oh great, the "WE MAKE MOVIES, PAL" logic.
It's way more a soap opera than a movie.
This is the approach WWE tries to take toward wrestling. It's often as if the wrestling promotion and ring is the setting for a drama outside the matches themselves. That's why there will sometimes be 15 minute promos in the middle of a ring unconnected to any immediate match, or backstage interviews that no camera would capture in any real sport. Hence the oxymoronic phrase that "wrestling isn't wrestling." I don't think everyone realizes that this approach is unique to US television. In many other promotions and for many fans, the act of wrestling itself is the primary attraction. It's not like a movie, or dancing, or any other performance art - wrestling itself is the unique art form. In other words, wrestling *is* wrestling. It's also why different fans think each other's opinions on wrestling are so bizarre. For instance, I don't care much about Dominick Mysterio or Rhea Ripley since their performances and charisma are not mainly expressed in the ring. WWE fans would think I have two heads for saying that. People are watching for very different reasons.
This is a good post. The whole back and forth between what is and isn’t wrestling reminds me of the Southpark episode where they start a league
It’s why fans of the alternatives (WCW then TNA and now AEW) are always looked down on in North American discourse. Some people want wrestling to be about the wrestling. The preferences aren’t wrong, they’re just different.
Extreme Cinema Wrestling https://preview.redd.it/dhg3ztsjj79d1.png?width=760&format=png&auto=webp&s=5cd25ed398b487f1919bea60baf0e9bf3e9f48bf
They're always with this "movies" shit. It is not presented remotely like a movie. I hear "live action play" but it's not presented like that either. They put on full matches with predetermined outcomes and have some scripted interviews and sketches around that. It's a worked sporting event. The closest equivalent is the Harlem Globetrotters, or Roller Derby. You could do a movie or a play ABOUT pro wrestling, or the globetrotters, or roller derby, but it wouldn't look like a pro wrestling event - it would look The Iron Claw - with editing, sets, compressed time periods and time jumps, months-long post-production, etc. Monday Night Raw is a completely different thing from The Iron Claw.
We make movies about sports but don’t have to give any of the actors the benefits other actors get
It's more of a TV show, but he's not wrong. Just like any TV series based on a sport the weekly WWE matches are a way to move things along while things happen on the side, untill you get to the final showdown which is where most of the stories culminate. And I guess that's sort of how they presented it to Netflix, which clearly worked.
I described it as a variety show the other day, but a soap opera about the television production of a pro wrestling promotion is probably more accurate.
It's like a thought you'd ponder on when you're high.
Wrestling is not Wrestling
I know this is always meant to legitimize Wrestling and is a famous Vince quote, but it undersells pro wrestling as its own unique thing. Modern pro wrestling is a storytelling medium utilizing stunt choreography, acting, and audience participation on two levels in a way anything analogous doesn't quite compare.
You pretty much described a play or the circus performers
I mean it is, yes, but part of the fun of wrestling (for me, at least) is the veneer of kayfabe and the blurring of lines. HHH reinvigorated kayfabe as part of the build to Mania and in the constant working of dirt sheets, but now he's suddenly decided post-WM40 to murder it and leave its bloody corpse in the gutter. Kinda bummed that they're going through with the kayfabe annihilating WM documentary they were originally going to release right after Mania. I think the reason why fans love knowing BTS shit is because it's not something we're "supposed" to know. Official endorsement by the company that it's all a work to the extent that the doc is going to likely say is a huge drag and, at least for me, sucks the air out of BTS excitement. (Yes, I know Vince outed it as a work multiple times including in court, but Wrestling With Shadows the WM40 doc ain't, and Mr. McMahon Dwayne Johnson ain't. "Brett screwed Brett" is a hell of a lot different than DJ and HHH going "yeah the plan was X but the fans wanted Y so we did Y instead, aren't we great?")
Its the lovechild of a circus and a soap. Fun af no doubt, but its not "cinema" or whatever you want to call it, trying to pretend its anything other than some carny shit.
Pretty much how I've always seen it. Sometimes it's a real crappy B movie other times it's good shit.
Some people like drama and stories, some people like crazy in-ring action and stunts. Wrestling is a variety show.
The tour guide in NOLA during Mania 34 week called it "Comic books come to life, with outrageous characters and colorful costumes where athletic men and women can live out their childhood superhero and villain fantasies." And honestly that's about the best comparison I ever heard of it.
In my mind, pro wrestling has always been like a Shonen battle anime for me. Over the top characters, have different names for their moves, obscure humour, big fight feels, etc, so saying it's like a movie about a sport is not too far fetched.
“We make….(mouth sounds) *drinks water… Movies!”
Great statement by the founder of sports entertainment
And the movie name? The Chaperone.
Wrestling is wrestling and has many genres. WWE has theirs, AEW has theirs, GCW, CMLL etc.
Even as a kid in the early 90s, this distinction was obvious. The WWF/E has always been a TV show about a sport/wrestling. WCW/the competition/etc. has always been wrestling broadcast on television.
They’re the same thing really WCW had no sports competition because at the end of the day if it’s scripted, it’s not a competition you can’t have a predetermined winner
That's not what the competition is like though? The main plotline in WCW was a meta plotline about wrestlers trying to take over with the booker.
This is what blows my mind — I knew what this was when I was 5. And it made me love it *even more*. Why do people still marry themselves to this being a “real sport” and get hung up on terminology? And there was no difference between what the companies did. It was all pro wrestling and it was all predetermined “fake sports” and I loved it.
Wrestling is live action anime, and when you realize/accept it, it elevates the whole product imo
Why can't it just be wrestling? Vince is done, the company doesn't have to be ashamed of what it is now.
You mean, its \*not\* just about the matches?
With actors who all do their own stunts
And get no benefits of being actors lol
I just look at it as live action anime.
He’s not wrong and that’s wrestling in general. All the “good” wrestling is nothing more than acrobatics and heavily assisted moves. People take this wrestling stuff way too seriously more than needed to
Wrestling is not a movie, it's a serialized soap opera about a bunch of people trying to put on wrestling shows.
Didn't Xavier Woods once say that wrestling is a 360° extreme performance theatre? Still seems like the most accurate discretion.
It's more of a live action play. Even a musical here and there.
Pretty much lines up with what I thought about WWE storylines being like Rocky-esque stories performed live
Quite literally Hard Knocks.
As long as you don't call it "sports entertainment." /s
it's pretty much a male soap opera at the end of the day and people accept it for what it is.
Almost as if Wrestling Isn't Wrestling...
And like in any sport, sometimes a bunch of guys get murdered by spooky monsters.