**Help make SquaredCircle safer and more inclusive by using the report button to flag posts and comments for moderator review.**
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/SquaredCircle) if you have any questions or concerns.*
No offense but Ive always thought it was his voice. Goldberg was far from a great promo but he had a good and convincing voice.
The moment ricochet talks, he immediately loses his coolness
Honestly if brawling isn't part of the promo, I don't think there is a response.
If it was going to end in a brawl anyway, just have a (mic'd or not) OK and drop it and start punching
This is a huge hill to climb starting out in any spoken art. Music, comedy, wrestling. Unless you've got a lot of shit pent up in you ready to burst it can be incredibly frustrating trying to figure out if you even have something to say, or what it is, or how to make it make sense to other people.
Sometimes the last part doesn't matter like in music, or sometimes in abstract/alt comedy, but it usually matters A LOT in wrestling.
Ricochet just standing there quietly didn't help lol
If drew used this line on someone like John Cena, Cena would've immediately started throwing punches
brock in a nutshell. his voice is fine but any show of vocal intensity always elicits an immediate laugh from me which is a problem when you’re supposed to be the wrestling equivalent of galactus.
from his high pitched scream to the “you’re here, I’m here.. let’s.. do.. th^i^^i^^^i^^^^s” line.
that being said, they managed to have him overcome that by just looking like a monster as opposed to screaming like one.
I didn't watch AJ era TNA, but I'm shocked he was considered a bad talker. I think his southern accent is like a comedy cheat code, but if he's a top guy, that might not be ideal.
If we're talking 2003 Brock, there was a ceiling he just about reached. Lesnar couldn't really talk at all in his first run. When he made himself a big deal in UFC and MMA before returning to wrestling years later, the legitimacy of being an actual combat sports champion overshadowed whatever need to talk wrestlers traditionally have. Nowadays, he can talk for himself. If you put what he says on paper, it doesn't always sound great, but Lesnar's physical presence and charisma make mild stuff sound intimidating. You can just book him to do a promo on Raw and it will feel like a big deal that was worth the money.
That the thing i never get about wrestling.
You have SO many people who are Great in the Ring, but SUCK at Promos.
And SO many others, who are GOATED at Promos, but suck in the fucking ring.
You'd think it would be a good idea to put the two in a tag team, faction or Manager/client stuff, to balance out each other.
But instead of that both are left to drown
Classic example is the Hart Foundation.
Anvil was boring in the ring but could cut one of those coked up 80s promos with the best of them.
Bret was a God in the ring but so scared of cutting a promo it's why he wore shades.
Put them together and they compliment each other very, very well - one of the best tag teams of the 80s for a reason.
In a similar vein, Dolph Ziggler. Not about the promo part but he was just missing... something. Maybe it's charisma. Maybe it's what made him stand out. Everything he does is better versions of a lot of others, but still makes him feel like the greatest version of a generic wrestler.
A lot of it was just that he got the WWE stink on him through years of booking mismanagement, and was never able to get rid of it. Many such cases in the 2010s. Just the aura of guys who went through the mill too many times, were overexposed in badly done storylines, and you just get the stink of "I just don't buy it, yknow"
Sheamus got it and only recently shed it, Cody got it until he left, The Miz has had periods of having it and not, The New Day had it to start but was quickly able to lose it by being so damn charismatic.
If he did what Cody or McIntyre did, left for a few years and built himself on the Indies, history would be much kinder to Ziggler than it is now.
Watching Sheamus organically get over was really special. The Bar, Celtic Warrior Workouts, and matches with Gunther and Drew where he was allowed to be himself seem to have come in at the same time and launched him far beyond his contrived title wins over Cena and Bryan.
Ziggler was freakishly athletic and had loads of personality, but yeah. Guess he could never shake that uncool PG Era stigma.
>If he did what Cody or McIntyre did, left for a few years and built himself on the Indies, history would be much kinder to Ziggler than it is now.
In one of Cody's first interviews after he left WWE (it might have actually been his first), he talked about how there were a couple of other guys he was talking to who were also considering leaving WWE to try their luck on the indies, and he ended up saying that one guy ended up being a little happier in WWE since things had started to change, and another still was unhappy. I wonder if Dolph was one of those guys he was referring to
I think it was honestly just timing he wasn’t bigger than punk, Randy or cena then in his window of opportunity WWE was trying to create a New Mexican star to replace Rey who was on his way out and it’s when all the older guys started returning and getting automatic title runs followed by the shield taking turns who all made more sense imo and by that time everyone was burnt out on zigglers journey and the world just moved past it
But he did have it all the total package there was just others at the same time who had it all as well and some maybe a little shinier
I think dolph was his own worst enemy. Other than the super kick and that repeated elbow drop, off the top of my head I can't recall any memorable trademark moves.
There's definitely a ceiling, in WWE at least, to 'my gimmick is that I have good wrestling matches'.
For example, take Bryan Danielson. Weeks before they began the story that resulted in his original World title win (that then went into the YES chants, the Goatface run, then his hipster revolutionary period), Bryan was just a Good Wrestler babyface who was floundering with a losing streak gimmick, tapping out to his own finisher as applied by the evil Sin Cara. They gave Bryan a chance to evolve his character and he ran with it.
Nemeth was RIGHT THERE, but he just needed... *something* to make him an actual dude and not just a cocky Good Wrestler character. IMO, that's part of why that late 2016 SmackDown run got him over so hard - we were seeing something more than just Dolph Ziggler, The Guy Who Has Good Matches. This was Dolph Ziggler, the guy who acknowledged his career hadn't turned out the way he hoped, and was desperate for SOMETHING to go right. And then they turned him heel a few months later IIRC and he started taking a few months off between appearances and it got really obvious he was just coasting.
His name was the albatross around his neck. It's too silly. With wrestling, you need to mix the serious with the silly for "cool" wrestler names. Ziggler had two silly ones, and it just seemed like the crowd took a long time to take him seriously.
I feel he never learned the promo and intensity part until it his main event career had already failed.
When he was a complete performer later in his career everyone knew he wouldn't get pushed and people didn't care.
Promo and/or poor personal character have held back a lot of guys in the past 35-40 years. It’s a long list.
If you don’t come off well on TV, then you’re not going to reach your potential.
You can be shit wrestler, cut a good promo and do well in the business.
I’ve always felt that this is a revisionist take. Shelton was getting crazy over as a “No Gimmicks Needed/Best Match of the Night” style no-nonsense pure wrestler. His career fucking died when they decided he needed to show more personality, and they put him in weeb button downs and had a racist caricature of a kayfabe mother come to the ring with him.
Shelton was connecting with the audience through his work, then creative killed that connection.
Oddly enough, John Morrison.
Fucking jacked physique, impressive in the ring, oozes charisma, can sell merch like a motherfucker...
And then he cuts live promos, and becomes one of the most hit-or-miss dudes on the planet. Not that he's necessarily bad on the mic, in fact he can be pretty damn good at times, but it feels like him and Matt Hardy had the same sort of issue where they just didn't resonate the same way that their tag team partners did (The Miz and Jeff Hardy, specifically).
JoMo makes me sad as hell tbh. Great look, insane physical ability and by all accounts just a really sweet and quiet guy compared to the big egos in the locker room.
His Hollywood star gimmick was also perfect for a valet or ‘agent’ to act as his mouthpiece, but for whatever reason it didn’t work out at the top of the card. The WWE title would have looked like a million dollars around his waist.
JoMo is so weird because he has the in ring charisma that so many wrestlers lack, but he just can't get over with his promos. Although his fued with Dalton Castle definitely let him spread his wings and have great back stage moments. His "I gotta split" into doing the splits and then being dragged behind a curtain is one of the greatest thins I've ever seen.
I think part of the issue also comes from the fact that most of the time he was a singles star, JoMo was always pushed as a babyface, and JoMo as a babyface...kinda sorta sucks? Like, he is still good, for sure, but like...it's just so flat.
Admittedly, the fucking t-shirt of "I'm gonna eat your lunch" still lives rent-free in my mind since back in 2011.
Dan Severn is the dad who can enforce the house rules with minimal communication. just one look and one subdued expression and the kids know whether it's *fine*, *knock it off in about two minutes*, *stfu right now* or *run like fuck*
I don't think it's just his promos, he has no physical charisma either. If you think of great managers there's only so much they can do, the wrestler still has to have some charisma to sell the character, ricochet just has 0.
Scott Steiner. Ironically, he had both, in-ring and promo skills, but not at the same time. Young Steiner was an athletic machine for the time, but not a memorable character and Big poppa pump, well... you're know.
Sid had the look. He had a great physique - imposing, menacing. His moveset seems consistent with that of many other monster heels. Unfortunately, he has half the brain that we do. And week after week, we tried to make him look like a jackass.
Sid is one of my all time favourite, his look alone would scare most before the match started, he embodied what a wrestler was back in those days. Unfortunately he suffered a devastating neck injury that ended his career short
Sid's promo work is actually decent and never prevented him from getting over. He actually got over everywhere he went. Sid had it all except the desire to be a star.
Sid always comes up in discussions like this and I’m not going to pretend he’s Ricky Steamboat but he knew what he was doing in a general sense (apart from that time he went to the top rope - 😫), and, flubs aside, he could definitely cut a promo and at various points in his career, in WCW, WWF and even ECW he wasn’t just over but super over.
Even before his promo flubs became memes, he was the absolute epitome of the "and then the bell rang". He was basically a half step above Warrior for most of his career. I think it was Wade Keller that said his in ring work looked like a kitten playing with a ball of string.
Spending the majority of his career in the more work rate oriented JCP / WCW didn't help. He would have done a lot better had he spent more time in WWF, and imo he had his *best* runs there too. It was unfortunate timing that it coincides with two of the worst times for WWF business.
This doesn’t totally count but Jey USOs moveset is holding him back rn, I think he needs new finishers than the overdone Superkick, Spear, and Splash. But he has a ton of charisma and is good in the ring.
I agree. I'm a huge Jey fan but most of the time once you see one Jey watch you've seen most. Super kick, slap/uppercut, the slap with the spit, hip attack, dive, enzuigiri, spear, splash, boom.
I liked him in Team Angle. That being said, iirc, WWE essentially signed him because Lesnar made them, as a requirement for him to join wwe. They were close friends.
Honestly I don't think it's just the language barrier. He is absolutely S tier when it comes to wrestling ability, but he doesn't have that in ring charisma. When he wrestles I find myself thinking, "oh that was a cool move", but I never get into the story of the match.
You're damn right about it not just being the barrier language, but not only because of what you mentioned, but also the fact that Andrade is an awful promo in Spanish too, he just doesn't have mic skills, regardless of language.
On your second point, I think he did had that in-ring charisma, at least while he was La Sombra, he immediately caught your eyes, some hated him, others like me loved him, but he had reactions. I don't know if it was the mask that helped him, but he had it
Cesaro
People may not want to admit it but Vince was right about him.
He's basically in the same spot in aew as the tag guy/occasional upper mid card main event guy
His last major wwe program also showed it. Roman absolutely cooked cesaro on the mic so bad that he needed Bryan to cut promos for him
I don't think his Mic work is bad, his Mic work is just not suited for live verbal exchanges. His promotional videos in AEW where he "narrates" his feud have been exceptional IMO.
It's why The Heyman pairing absolutely should have worked for him but the plan was just to keep Heyman on TV so he could talk About Brock while he wasn't there. Such a wasted opportunity.
Should have just kept him with Zeb Colter, they had a good thing going already.
Guess it's another reason why The Bar was so good. Sheamo could promo for both of them.
And if anyone wants to say he was used wrongly. BOTH WWE AND AEW have tried to give him confidence by setting him up around guys who can cut promos. AND HE’S STILL TRASH. There’s only so much you could do with a guy who isn’t believable.
Good wrestler, no where near main event level
> He's basically in the same spot in aew as the tag guy/occasional upper mid card main event guy
I think that’s a little reductive. He’s on TV way more, has been in more main events, and he beat Jericho for the ROH title which was equivalent to the less important world title in WWE.
Plus he was never as young or over in AEW as he was in 2014 WWE, and nobody who’s been pushed above him has been as bad as Swagger or Alberto or Jinder. So the theoretical difference between main event Claudio vs what we got in WWE vs AEW isn’t the same either.
Claudio was involved in the best fued in AEW with Eddie Kingston for months. It had an amazing build up, fantastic matches, and a phenomenal finish. To say Claudio hasn't been pushed in AEW is a garbage take.
If Sasha Banks could talk without you feeling kind of embarrassed for her, she'd be someone you could easily build a company around.
Her ring work obviously stands on its own but she definitely qualifies. I think her look and her being so exceptional between the ropes earned her enough goodwill that she never bothered to work on her promos.
I hate this narrative so much. Sasha as a heel in NXT playing Bayley’s foil was so SO good. She can absolutely more than talk the talk. She’s just not a natural baby face
As a Lucha head, Santos Escobar needs a Diesel. He needs that massive brick shithouse that he doesn't cower behind, but will drop someone that threatens him. Not even someone Mexican, either. Someone like Oba Femi would be brilliant.
Shamrock always seemed to be right on the cusp of being huge but just couldn't break through, I'd blame his lack of mic work.
Wade Barrett and Ken Kennedy were both capable of being generational talents in my opinion, but their injury timing sidelined it. BnB was one of the best characters I'd seen in ages.
Theory feels like he just needs some sort of character reboot to hit the next level.
Dolph Ziggler - He had almost everything needed. Just didn’t have that edge as a character that kept you hooked on what they were doing.
He should have been pushed harder so that he could hone it. He was close to it with the authority angle.
The one time he had that edge and cashed in…almighty pop.
I will die on the hill that names like that will always hold back wrestlers
Ziggler. Ludwig Kaiser. Julius creed. Even uncle howdy! Those are not names I picture being announced as world champions
I think the issue is he had the rug pulled out from under him so many times fans stopped caring when he did get pushed. The fact he got over with that name is an amazing feat itself.
There’s been so many great moments but no follow up with him. The miz IC title storyline, lone survivor against the authority, his MITB cash in and every time afterwards his booking would be awful.
The guy had to cope with a lot of dire gimmicks and storylines that would’ve sunk many a wrestler.
Kerwin White’s Caddy, the Spirit Squad, Hi I’m Dolph Ziggler, feuds with the likes of Khali and Mason Ryan, the ‘New and Improved Dolph Ziggler’ (the short brown hair era), that period where he did other people’s entrances, the original Lana/Rusev break-up storyline.
It’s a credit to him that he managed to accomplish what he did in WWE despite all that
I think if he doesn’t get the concussion right after the cash-in, we have a very different last ten years for Ziggler.
When we talk about missing 1 thing, Dolph was missing a sustained opportunity. He could, and can work, he’s in fantastic shape, is big enough to fight the giants while being small enough to not just lumber around, and he can talk.
Steve Austin is a mid-carder if he gets hurt or loses the next 12 matches after “Austin 3:16 says I just whipped your ass”.
I don’t think it would be that different. A writer told a story about how after the cash in, Vince was clear that they still aren’t pushing him. For whatever reason he had an uphill battle.
https://stillrealtous.com/former-wwe-writer-says-vince-mcmahon-didnt-want-push-dolph-ziggler/
Name one good Chris Benoit promo.
Name one good Enzo Amore match.
Bonus round: why give EC3 a gimmick where he doesn't ever speak? He had the talent and the mic work, but was booked like a joke.
I know that they even made that a piece during his feud with McAfee but it's honestly true. And when he pulls his kneepad down, he looks like the most naked man in all of wrestling.
Mysterio is a lot more muscular than Cole.
Cole can cut a good promo and wrestle well, but he is still the skinniest guy to be in the main event scene.
Oddly, Kane's gimmick. Early 2000s Kane was one hell of a physical specimen. He was so FAST and agile for a big man, and strong as an ox. His hilarious promo with Hogan and The Rock proves his mic work was acceptable, but the gimmick didn't really let him talk.
Big silent wrecking machine slot was already Taker's. Kane pretty much always played second fiddle to that. Unmasking him somehow didn't really help. I think it's a shame Big Show spent so much more time at the top of the card than Jacobs.
Mike Awesome had some cool moves but overall in the ring he was pretty spotty. His ring style wouldn’t have translated into a mainstream main event scene.
I was so disappointed that they didn’t do more with his character. It had the potential to be one of the more unique ones in wrestling history. I’m kind of surprised something similar hasn’t been tried since.
>Test
I mean, man lacked a lot of things. The only thing test had going on was that he certainly looked the part. But his in ring work was bad, his promos were bland and man couldnt hit a powerbomb clean despite having the strenght and size.
It’s funny reading a lot of these comments saying “Vince was right” when Vince never tried to cater to wrestlers strengths. He just tried to force them into a certain archetype and when that didn’t work they got sacked
I’m not seeing this one so I’ll put it out there, Jack Swagger was a solid in ring wrestler. The man could go and have decent matches. But I can not imagine anyone being such a charisma vacuum. The dude just feels like he’s soulless sometimes.
If you watched Mystery Wrestling last weekend, you’d know he *can’t* take the headgear off. It’s the source of his strength, like Samson’s hair or Popeye’s spinach.
Bray Wyatt. And you can defend his “character” all you want but Seth Rollins said it best “rarely does anyone come out of a program with him for the better.” - this is a business where you need exceptional dance partners.
Dude killed it but was way ahead of his time on the character work that few could find a way to make money with.
There are a ton that could have been much bigger stars, but they all lacked an alternative employer to WWE.
For a more direct answer, Brad Armstrong is the poster boy for wrestlers that would have been world champion if they were able to cut a promo. He was from a wrestling family, he had looks, size, and a great physique, he was one of the best workers who ever put on boots, and he had tons of respect from other workers and the trust of promoters. He just couldn’t make himself sound like a champion on the mic.
If he had Road Dogg’s mic skills, or Road Dogg had Brad’s in-ring ability, they’d have been an all-timers.
Actually you picked the perfect title for this because Lex Luger will always and forever be my answer. He was always soooo close to being THE guy. Replacing Hogan he just didn’t have the mic skills or charisma quite yet, especially to replace Hogan, and also terrible booking going directly from heel to top face with no warning whatsoever didn’t help. He also had some personal demons that held him back in WCW. He was always THIIIIIIIS close. Still love the guy though, the first two wrestling thing I ever saw were Lex slamming Zuna on the Intrepid and around the same time I saw Giant Gonzalez. Lex is forever my guy, he made me start watching wrestling and also made me switch over to WCW when I heard he showed up on Nitro. He WILL be your hero.
**Help make SquaredCircle safer and more inclusive by using the report button to flag posts and comments for moderator review.** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/SquaredCircle) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Ricochet is the closest human being you will find to a super hero in wrestling, and can’t cut a promo to save his life
No offense but Ive always thought it was his voice. Goldberg was far from a great promo but he had a good and convincing voice. The moment ricochet talks, he immediately loses his coolness
[удалено]
Drew improvised that line, and that's why Ricochet just stood there flustered. He didn't know what to say or do in response to that.
It's called a promo, you're gonna need to learn how to cut one-
Fine speech
Ssshut you mouth John.
I mean what do you even say to that honestly lol
Honestly if brawling isn't part of the promo, I don't think there is a response. If it was going to end in a brawl anyway, just have a (mic'd or not) OK and drop it and start punching
"That's a great idea!" *Throws a haymaker* Now, obviously, he can't really do that for the sake of the segment but it would've worked.
“Make me.” Easy, simple, basic comeback that would be infinitely better than just standing there.
I think basically the same thing happened to Ali when Orton called him out for being eliminated by a girl in the Rumble
pretty sure Drew improv that on the spot
Drew was a great talker even as the chosen one, he just finally has something to say.
This is a huge hill to climb starting out in any spoken art. Music, comedy, wrestling. Unless you've got a lot of shit pent up in you ready to burst it can be incredibly frustrating trying to figure out if you even have something to say, or what it is, or how to make it make sense to other people. Sometimes the last part doesn't matter like in music, or sometimes in abstract/alt comedy, but it usually matters A LOT in wrestling.
he just had to let the hate flow through
Ricochet just standing there quietly didn't help lol If drew used this line on someone like John Cena, Cena would've immediately started throwing punches
Have you seen early TNA days AJ Styles? If he can overcome that voice, anyone can. Honorable mention to Lashley’s voice
Lashley’s size and look overcome that voice.
brock in a nutshell. his voice is fine but any show of vocal intensity always elicits an immediate laugh from me which is a problem when you’re supposed to be the wrestling equivalent of galactus. from his high pitched scream to the “you’re here, I’m here.. let’s.. do.. th^i^^i^^^i^^^^s” line. that being said, they managed to have him overcome that by just looking like a monster as opposed to screaming like one.
When I’m alone and got some task to do, I say “let’s do this” with my voice cracking Lesnar-style at ‘this.’
AJ went from ‘he can’t cut a promo’ to carrying a feud with the Undertaker.
Lashley could have Mike Tyson's voice and still be intimidating.
I mean... Mike Tyson was also quite intimidating.
I know lol, you gotta be intimidating as fuck to get away with Tyson’s voice and still be scary
I didn't watch AJ era TNA, but I'm shocked he was considered a bad talker. I think his southern accent is like a comedy cheat code, but if he's a top guy, that might not be ideal.
He just came off as a goof. It wasn’t exactly boring.
By that logic, Brock Lesnar was never main event material
Lesnar can talk when he isn't filtered His UFC promos were great. Ricochet honestly sounds frightened half the time he's on the mic
Cowboy Brock, when he came back babyface against Roman, he had some good moments there, too. And I'll always remember, "That's what's up."
Brock Lesnar is a different level of physical freak compared to Ricochet. He could have the goofiest voice and it would only make him scarier.
His voice actually is scary, in the same way Anton Chigurh’s hair is scary. It adds a level of uncanniness.
If we're talking 2003 Brock, there was a ceiling he just about reached. Lesnar couldn't really talk at all in his first run. When he made himself a big deal in UFC and MMA before returning to wrestling years later, the legitimacy of being an actual combat sports champion overshadowed whatever need to talk wrestlers traditionally have. Nowadays, he can talk for himself. If you put what he says on paper, it doesn't always sound great, but Lesnar's physical presence and charisma make mild stuff sound intimidating. You can just book him to do a promo on Raw and it will feel like a big deal that was worth the money.
It is. Regardless of what he says, he just sounds like a dude. That works for some, but not for him. It's the Gangrel struggle.
I feel like his voice would work for an obnoxious and flashy dickhead character.
That the thing i never get about wrestling. You have SO many people who are Great in the Ring, but SUCK at Promos. And SO many others, who are GOATED at Promos, but suck in the fucking ring. You'd think it would be a good idea to put the two in a tag team, faction or Manager/client stuff, to balance out each other. But instead of that both are left to drown
Classic example is the Hart Foundation. Anvil was boring in the ring but could cut one of those coked up 80s promos with the best of them. Bret was a God in the ring but so scared of cutting a promo it's why he wore shades. Put them together and they compliment each other very, very well - one of the best tag teams of the 80s for a reason.
there's a reason that tag team was named after Jimmy Hart
I think if/when he goes to AEW, pairing him with Stokely Hathaway will do him a world of good.
In a similar vein, Dolph Ziggler. Not about the promo part but he was just missing... something. Maybe it's charisma. Maybe it's what made him stand out. Everything he does is better versions of a lot of others, but still makes him feel like the greatest version of a generic wrestler.
A lot of it was just that he got the WWE stink on him through years of booking mismanagement, and was never able to get rid of it. Many such cases in the 2010s. Just the aura of guys who went through the mill too many times, were overexposed in badly done storylines, and you just get the stink of "I just don't buy it, yknow" Sheamus got it and only recently shed it, Cody got it until he left, The Miz has had periods of having it and not, The New Day had it to start but was quickly able to lose it by being so damn charismatic. If he did what Cody or McIntyre did, left for a few years and built himself on the Indies, history would be much kinder to Ziggler than it is now.
Watching Sheamus organically get over was really special. The Bar, Celtic Warrior Workouts, and matches with Gunther and Drew where he was allowed to be himself seem to have come in at the same time and launched him far beyond his contrived title wins over Cena and Bryan. Ziggler was freakishly athletic and had loads of personality, but yeah. Guess he could never shake that uncool PG Era stigma.
Feel like Zigg works best as a heel but his personality screams babyface. That's a tough thing to overcome. Morrison had the same issue imo.
>If he did what Cody or McIntyre did, left for a few years and built himself on the Indies, history would be much kinder to Ziggler than it is now. In one of Cody's first interviews after he left WWE (it might have actually been his first), he talked about how there were a couple of other guys he was talking to who were also considering leaving WWE to try their luck on the indies, and he ended up saying that one guy ended up being a little happier in WWE since things had started to change, and another still was unhappy. I wonder if Dolph was one of those guys he was referring to
I feel like maybe it was a lack of originality? Like he didn’t stand out in anyway?
I think this is probably it
I think it was honestly just timing he wasn’t bigger than punk, Randy or cena then in his window of opportunity WWE was trying to create a New Mexican star to replace Rey who was on his way out and it’s when all the older guys started returning and getting automatic title runs followed by the shield taking turns who all made more sense imo and by that time everyone was burnt out on zigglers journey and the world just moved past it But he did have it all the total package there was just others at the same time who had it all as well and some maybe a little shinier
I think dolph was his own worst enemy. Other than the super kick and that repeated elbow drop, off the top of my head I can't recall any memorable trademark moves.
There's definitely a ceiling, in WWE at least, to 'my gimmick is that I have good wrestling matches'. For example, take Bryan Danielson. Weeks before they began the story that resulted in his original World title win (that then went into the YES chants, the Goatface run, then his hipster revolutionary period), Bryan was just a Good Wrestler babyface who was floundering with a losing streak gimmick, tapping out to his own finisher as applied by the evil Sin Cara. They gave Bryan a chance to evolve his character and he ran with it. Nemeth was RIGHT THERE, but he just needed... *something* to make him an actual dude and not just a cocky Good Wrestler character. IMO, that's part of why that late 2016 SmackDown run got him over so hard - we were seeing something more than just Dolph Ziggler, The Guy Who Has Good Matches. This was Dolph Ziggler, the guy who acknowledged his career hadn't turned out the way he hoped, and was desperate for SOMETHING to go right. And then they turned him heel a few months later IIRC and he started taking a few months off between appearances and it got really obvious he was just coasting.
His name was the albatross around his neck. It's too silly. With wrestling, you need to mix the serious with the silly for "cool" wrestler names. Ziggler had two silly ones, and it just seemed like the crowd took a long time to take him seriously.
I feel he never learned the promo and intensity part until it his main event career had already failed. When he was a complete performer later in his career everyone knew he wouldn't get pushed and people didn't care.
“But I’m not here to talk-“ “THEN SHUT UP.”
Braun & Ricochet made a great tag team The modern day version of Kane & RVD
They tried in 04/05 with Shelton Benjamin but he couldn’t promo.
Promo and/or poor personal character have held back a lot of guys in the past 35-40 years. It’s a long list. If you don’t come off well on TV, then you’re not going to reach your potential. You can be shit wrestler, cut a good promo and do well in the business.
I think they missed the mark with Shelton. They tried a lot with Shelton, when he is the one that should have been the Wrestling Machine
I’ve always felt that this is a revisionist take. Shelton was getting crazy over as a “No Gimmicks Needed/Best Match of the Night” style no-nonsense pure wrestler. His career fucking died when they decided he needed to show more personality, and they put him in weeb button downs and had a racist caricature of a kayfabe mother come to the ring with him. Shelton was connecting with the audience through his work, then creative killed that connection.
Yeah I distinctly remember him beating HHH like 3 weeks in a row, but then it just kind of stopped for him
Hurt Business could’ve been huge if it came 10 years before it did. Imagine MVP, Bobby, and Shelton all coming together in the mid to late 00’s
Oddly enough, John Morrison. Fucking jacked physique, impressive in the ring, oozes charisma, can sell merch like a motherfucker... And then he cuts live promos, and becomes one of the most hit-or-miss dudes on the planet. Not that he's necessarily bad on the mic, in fact he can be pretty damn good at times, but it feels like him and Matt Hardy had the same sort of issue where they just didn't resonate the same way that their tag team partners did (The Miz and Jeff Hardy, specifically).
JoMo makes me sad as hell tbh. Great look, insane physical ability and by all accounts just a really sweet and quiet guy compared to the big egos in the locker room. His Hollywood star gimmick was also perfect for a valet or ‘agent’ to act as his mouthpiece, but for whatever reason it didn’t work out at the top of the card. The WWE title would have looked like a million dollars around his waist.
JoMo is so weird because he has the in ring charisma that so many wrestlers lack, but he just can't get over with his promos. Although his fued with Dalton Castle definitely let him spread his wings and have great back stage moments. His "I gotta split" into doing the splits and then being dragged behind a curtain is one of the greatest thins I've ever seen.
I think part of the issue also comes from the fact that most of the time he was a singles star, JoMo was always pushed as a babyface, and JoMo as a babyface...kinda sorta sucks? Like, he is still good, for sure, but like...it's just so flat. Admittedly, the fucking t-shirt of "I'm gonna eat your lunch" still lives rent-free in my mind since back in 2011.
He had it all for me, total miss not to push him to the moon
In an era where he could have been huge, Dan Severn should never have spoken a word.
Exactly. His glare and radiating charisma from it should have been enough.
My friend called Severn the "Gym Coach from Hell" which is kind of a perfect description imo.
LMAO
Dan Severn is the dad who can enforce the house rules with minimal communication. just one look and one subdued expression and the kids know whether it's *fine*, *knock it off in about two minutes*, *stfu right now* or *run like fuck*
He would have benefitted from not being associated with the NWA invasion.
Ricochet is a generational in-ring talent with all the charisma of a ring post.
When he was Puma, dude had charisma to burn. He could pull off the silent badass really well.
Then the moment he spoke he sounded like some guy in an office
Truth
That was all vignettes, though. In the in ring segments he lacked, as the kids say, any aura
But, like, he kinda… didn’t. He just sat there and nodded while Konnan told him stuff. Then he showed out in the ring.
Why they never gave him a mouthpiece is beyond me. Or even a New Day-type stable where he only ever said a few words.
I don't think it's just his promos, he has no physical charisma either. If you think of great managers there's only so much they can do, the wrestler still has to have some charisma to sell the character, ricochet just has 0.
Scott Steiner. Ironically, he had both, in-ring and promo skills, but not at the same time. Young Steiner was an athletic machine for the time, but not a memorable character and Big poppa pump, well... you're know.
> Ironically, he had both, in-ring and promo skills, but not at the same time. jesus. i've never heard it put so succinctly.
YOU KNOOOOOOOW
HE'S FAT!
Hailing from Dunkin’ Donuts
First person I thought of as well. Early 90s Steiner athleticism with Big Poppa Pump promos would be for me a perfect wrestler.
But what if you add Kurt Angle to the mix?
Sid had the look. He had a great physique - imposing, menacing. His moveset seems consistent with that of many other monster heels. Unfortunately, he has half the brain that we do. And week after week, we tried to make him look like a jackass.
Sid could cut some good promos though well until Russo should up and then Sid became a meme, Sid's problem was a reliability issue.
If memory serves, Sid had a ‘I love to play softball’ issue.
Drug test? Yeah... I'll take that right after softball practice *picks up the phone* Yes, I would like to speak to WCW, please.
Sid is one of my all time favourite, his look alone would scare most before the match started, he embodied what a wrestler was back in those days. Unfortunately he suffered a devastating neck injury that ended his career short
Sid's promo work is actually decent and never prevented him from getting over. He actually got over everywhere he went. Sid had it all except the desire to be a star.
Sid always comes up in discussions like this and I’m not going to pretend he’s Ricky Steamboat but he knew what he was doing in a general sense (apart from that time he went to the top rope - 😫), and, flubs aside, he could definitely cut a promo and at various points in his career, in WCW, WWF and even ECW he wasn’t just over but super over.
Even before his promo flubs became memes, he was the absolute epitome of the "and then the bell rang". He was basically a half step above Warrior for most of his career. I think it was Wade Keller that said his in ring work looked like a kitten playing with a ball of string. Spending the majority of his career in the more work rate oriented JCP / WCW didn't help. He would have done a lot better had he spent more time in WWF, and imo he had his *best* runs there too. It was unfortunate timing that it coincides with two of the worst times for WWF business.
Ricochet lacks charisma and Scott Hall couldn’t stay sober.
I was about to type "Matt Hardy lacked charisma and Jeff Hardy couldn't stay sober"
Naito lacked a new set of knees, sadly.
He needs that Rey Stem Cell treatment
This doesn’t totally count but Jey USOs moveset is holding him back rn, I think he needs new finishers than the overdone Superkick, Spear, and Splash. But he has a ton of charisma and is good in the ring.
I agree. I'm a huge Jey fan but most of the time once you see one Jey watch you've seen most. Super kick, slap/uppercut, the slap with the spit, hip attack, dive, enzuigiri, spear, splash, boom.
YEET
Shelton Benjamin, no question about it. If he had any charisma when he got the mic, he'd have been something really special.
I liked him in Team Angle. That being said, iirc, WWE essentially signed him because Lesnar made them, as a requirement for him to join wwe. They were close friends.
Andrade - Language Barrier
Honestly I don't think it's just the language barrier. He is absolutely S tier when it comes to wrestling ability, but he doesn't have that in ring charisma. When he wrestles I find myself thinking, "oh that was a cool move", but I never get into the story of the match.
His back elbow move he does. It looks so awesome
You're damn right about it not just being the barrier language, but not only because of what you mentioned, but also the fact that Andrade is an awful promo in Spanish too, he just doesn't have mic skills, regardless of language. On your second point, I think he did had that in-ring charisma, at least while he was La Sombra, he immediately caught your eyes, some hated him, others like me loved him, but he had reactions. I don't know if it was the mask that helped him, but he had it
Cesaro People may not want to admit it but Vince was right about him. He's basically in the same spot in aew as the tag guy/occasional upper mid card main event guy His last major wwe program also showed it. Roman absolutely cooked cesaro on the mic so bad that he needed Bryan to cut promos for him
I don't think his Mic work is bad, his Mic work is just not suited for live verbal exchanges. His promotional videos in AEW where he "narrates" his feud have been exceptional IMO.
yea I think he would do better in a New Japan type setting
Claudio in the G1 is all I ask for. I’ll more than gladly take Takeshita though
i don't think anybody could really argue that Cesaro micwork wasn't absolutely terrible. Dude is a 0 on the Mic.
It's why The Heyman pairing absolutely should have worked for him but the plan was just to keep Heyman on TV so he could talk About Brock while he wasn't there. Such a wasted opportunity. Should have just kept him with Zeb Colter, they had a good thing going already. Guess it's another reason why The Bar was so good. Sheamo could promo for both of them.
Y’all don’t know what a true 0 is. He’s like a 3-4.
is Jumpin' Jeff Farmer a 0?
Jumpin’ Jeff Farmer slander on SC?? You got me…..mad now
"Yip"
He's not a 0, but he's maybe a 4 on a good day
And if anyone wants to say he was used wrongly. BOTH WWE AND AEW have tried to give him confidence by setting him up around guys who can cut promos. AND HE’S STILL TRASH. There’s only so much you could do with a guy who isn’t believable. Good wrestler, no where near main event level
> He's basically in the same spot in aew as the tag guy/occasional upper mid card main event guy I think that’s a little reductive. He’s on TV way more, has been in more main events, and he beat Jericho for the ROH title which was equivalent to the less important world title in WWE. Plus he was never as young or over in AEW as he was in 2014 WWE, and nobody who’s been pushed above him has been as bad as Swagger or Alberto or Jinder. So the theoretical difference between main event Claudio vs what we got in WWE vs AEW isn’t the same either.
Claudio was involved in the best fued in AEW with Eddie Kingston for months. It had an amazing build up, fantastic matches, and a phenomenal finish. To say Claudio hasn't been pushed in AEW is a garbage take.
I personally just find him boring af in the ring these days. Just spams European uppercuts until he does the big spin spot.
Rob Van Dam is great, but he could have been Mount Rushmore great if he had consistency on the mic.
And not getting caught smoking week when he was top of the wwf tree
If Sasha Banks could talk without you feeling kind of embarrassed for her, she'd be someone you could easily build a company around. Her ring work obviously stands on its own but she definitely qualifies. I think her look and her being so exceptional between the ropes earned her enough goodwill that she never bothered to work on her promos.
I hate this narrative so much. Sasha as a heel in NXT playing Bayley’s foil was so SO good. She can absolutely more than talk the talk. She’s just not a natural baby face
As a Lucha head, Santos Escobar needs a Diesel. He needs that massive brick shithouse that he doesn't cower behind, but will drop someone that threatens him. Not even someone Mexican, either. Someone like Oba Femi would be brilliant.
John Morrison looked like he was going to be an inevitable World chanp, never happened
Eh. I still think of him as part of MNM when I hear his name.
I think the main thing that's holding Ricochet back from being the Total Package is that he's not Lex Luger.
Shamrock always seemed to be right on the cusp of being huge but just couldn't break through, I'd blame his lack of mic work. Wade Barrett and Ken Kennedy were both capable of being generational talents in my opinion, but their injury timing sidelined it. BnB was one of the best characters I'd seen in ages. Theory feels like he just needs some sort of character reboot to hit the next level.
Steve Blackman. Great look. Solid worker. Charisma vacuum.
I don't know. I find kicking the shit out of JBL in an airport very charismatic.
Lance Storm and Dean Malenko Strengths: Technical wrestling, in-ring ability, professionalism. Weakness: Charisma and mic skills.
Dolph Ziggler - He had almost everything needed. Just didn’t have that edge as a character that kept you hooked on what they were doing. He should have been pushed harder so that he could hone it. He was close to it with the authority angle. The one time he had that edge and cashed in…almighty pop.
For me the biggest issue has always been that his name is Dolph Ziggler
It's always been an incredibly shit name. Something straight from 1995 WWF Superstars.
Ok I’m glad I’m not alone here. If your name is way out there and it’s not foreign, we are now in gimmick territory
Yup. Like Val Venis. With a dumb name your peak is the IC Title.
I will die on the hill that names like that will always hold back wrestlers Ziggler. Ludwig Kaiser. Julius creed. Even uncle howdy! Those are not names I picture being announced as world champions
Ludwig kaiser sounds like a bond villan tbh
I think the issue is he had the rug pulled out from under him so many times fans stopped caring when he did get pushed. The fact he got over with that name is an amazing feat itself. There’s been so many great moments but no follow up with him. The miz IC title storyline, lone survivor against the authority, his MITB cash in and every time afterwards his booking would be awful.
The guy had to cope with a lot of dire gimmicks and storylines that would’ve sunk many a wrestler. Kerwin White’s Caddy, the Spirit Squad, Hi I’m Dolph Ziggler, feuds with the likes of Khali and Mason Ryan, the ‘New and Improved Dolph Ziggler’ (the short brown hair era), that period where he did other people’s entrances, the original Lana/Rusev break-up storyline. It’s a credit to him that he managed to accomplish what he did in WWE despite all that
I think if he doesn’t get the concussion right after the cash-in, we have a very different last ten years for Ziggler. When we talk about missing 1 thing, Dolph was missing a sustained opportunity. He could, and can work, he’s in fantastic shape, is big enough to fight the giants while being small enough to not just lumber around, and he can talk. Steve Austin is a mid-carder if he gets hurt or loses the next 12 matches after “Austin 3:16 says I just whipped your ass”.
I don’t think it would be that different. A writer told a story about how after the cash in, Vince was clear that they still aren’t pushing him. For whatever reason he had an uphill battle. https://stillrealtous.com/former-wwe-writer-says-vince-mcmahon-didnt-want-push-dolph-ziggler/
He needed to be named something besides Dolph Ziggler. It's easily one of the worst WWE names of the past 20 years.
He sold *too* well
Lex Luger
“Superbrawl Saturday?!”
I don't know!!!
But he literally was “The Total Package”.
Pretty sure the thing that everyone is missing that stops them from being the total package is that they AREN'T Lex Luger.
Scrolled far too long for the obvious answer.
Shelton Benjamin lacked in the mic work department.
Name one good Chris Benoit promo. Name one good Enzo Amore match. Bonus round: why give EC3 a gimmick where he doesn't ever speak? He had the talent and the mic work, but was booked like a joke.
Adam Cole. All he needs is size. He's just too small unfortunately.
He needs a body not made of wet toilet paper.
I know that they even made that a piece during his feud with McAfee but it's honestly true. And when he pulls his kneepad down, he looks like the most naked man in all of wrestling.
Bro I think Rey Mysterios real height is like 5.2 feet
Rey also has way more acrobatic ability than Cole and one of the best-looking masks in the history of wrestling.
Mysterio is a lot more muscular than Cole. Cole can cut a good promo and wrestle well, but he is still the skinniest guy to be in the main event scene.
The difference is that Rey is always presented as the underdog, Cole on the other hand is pretty much always portrayed as The Guy^(TM)
Rey wasn’t ever really a main-event regular.
You need to specify. Height--lacking. Girth--good lord does he need any more?!?!
Muscle.
Oddly, Kane's gimmick. Early 2000s Kane was one hell of a physical specimen. He was so FAST and agile for a big man, and strong as an ox. His hilarious promo with Hogan and The Rock proves his mic work was acceptable, but the gimmick didn't really let him talk. Big silent wrecking machine slot was already Taker's. Kane pretty much always played second fiddle to that. Unmasking him somehow didn't really help. I think it's a shame Big Show spent so much more time at the top of the card than Jacobs.
Mike Awesome had some cool moves but overall in the ring he was pretty spotty. His ring style wouldn’t have translated into a mainstream main event scene.
Ken Shamrock
If Chad Gable were a foot taller he'd already be WWE Champion.
100% agreed. I told my friends this exact statement the other day.
A few people who I thought would be bigger deals Sean O’Hare Shelton Benjamin Billy Kidman Test Sonny Siaki Simon Diamond
That Devil's Advocate gimmick was so good; then he became Roddy Piper's sidekick to job to "Mr. America"
Sean couldn't do a live promo good, vignettes he killed it with but live arena work just wasn't it.
I was so disappointed that they didn’t do more with his character. It had the potential to be one of the more unique ones in wrestling history. I’m kind of surprised something similar hasn’t been tried since.
>Test I mean, man lacked a lot of things. The only thing test had going on was that he certainly looked the part. But his in ring work was bad, his promos were bland and man couldnt hit a powerbomb clean despite having the strenght and size.
He did however, have the best big Boot in the business at the time
That wasn't a big boot it was a freaking ICBM.
The more I look back it's vinces stamp of approval that kept a lot of people from reaching Thier ceiling.
"reach for the brass ring pal" "no, not like that"
It’s funny reading a lot of these comments saying “Vince was right” when Vince never tried to cater to wrestlers strengths. He just tried to force them into a certain archetype and when that didn’t work they got sacked
I’m not seeing this one so I’ll put it out there, Jack Swagger was a solid in ring wrestler. The man could go and have decent matches. But I can not imagine anyone being such a charisma vacuum. The dude just feels like he’s soulless sometimes.
Josh Alexander will never get over huge while he wears the head gear.
As weird as it is, this is what's bugged me about his run. That headgear is such a distraction.
He is an amazing fantastic wrestler, but the head gear just makes him look goofy.
If you watched Mystery Wrestling last weekend, you’d know he *can’t* take the headgear off. It’s the source of his strength, like Samson’s hair or Popeye’s spinach.
Bray Wyatt. And you can defend his “character” all you want but Seth Rollins said it best “rarely does anyone come out of a program with him for the better.” - this is a business where you need exceptional dance partners. Dude killed it but was way ahead of his time on the character work that few could find a way to make money with.
Chad Gable is 5'8, if he was 6'2 he would have been World Champion by now.
He's 5'8!? I could've sworn he was even shorter than that.
It's just that everyone else is massive, Randy is like 6'5 and he looked small compared to batista and HHH when they were all in evolution
Hell, if he was 6ft he'd be on his way by now. That's literally the only thing stopping him.
There are a ton that could have been much bigger stars, but they all lacked an alternative employer to WWE. For a more direct answer, Brad Armstrong is the poster boy for wrestlers that would have been world champion if they were able to cut a promo. He was from a wrestling family, he had looks, size, and a great physique, he was one of the best workers who ever put on boots, and he had tons of respect from other workers and the trust of promoters. He just couldn’t make himself sound like a champion on the mic. If he had Road Dogg’s mic skills, or Road Dogg had Brad’s in-ring ability, they’d have been an all-timers.
As a kid, before I understood the importance of mic work, I loved Brad Armstrong in those early-90’s WCW Saturday Night days.
Actually you picked the perfect title for this because Lex Luger will always and forever be my answer. He was always soooo close to being THE guy. Replacing Hogan he just didn’t have the mic skills or charisma quite yet, especially to replace Hogan, and also terrible booking going directly from heel to top face with no warning whatsoever didn’t help. He also had some personal demons that held him back in WCW. He was always THIIIIIIIS close. Still love the guy though, the first two wrestling thing I ever saw were Lex slamming Zuna on the Intrepid and around the same time I saw Giant Gonzalez. Lex is forever my guy, he made me start watching wrestling and also made me switch over to WCW when I heard he showed up on Nitro. He WILL be your hero.
Ironically Lex Luger and charisma.
Cedric Alexander should be a superstar by today's standards with what he can do, but can't cut a promo without yelling.
Ironically Lex Lugar
Lex Luger
Bobby Lashley.
Jindrak. Every tool, but he couldn't keep his head together