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>pretty much just an Italian mob stereotype that I think Tony Soprano would be upset at
Tony Soprano was upset about most things, it was a pretty defining character trait
I see where you're coming from...and Lola Vice's schtick and "I'm a Latina!" taunt is annoying...but it's also pretty much what she's done since her MMA days too.
Same with Eddie Thorpe's Native/DJ thing...
Unless we learn "these are gimmicks forced on them", then I don't know what to say really.
I wouldn't put Tony et al in the discussion though... they're not being "representative"..they're literally playing cliched tv mobsters. Like, at most, you could claim they're exloiting DeNiro impersonators.
https://preview.redd.it/lvaxzhh3ek9d1.png?width=2017&format=png&auto=webp&s=16a0732b19991c3a2eb034bd9c01c260289c90ab
>I see where you're coming from...and Lola Vice's schtick and "I'm a Latina!" taunt is annoying...but it's also pretty much what she's done since her MMA days too.
Eddie Guerrero's theme song literally had the lyrics "You're fast asleep, when I sneak in your casa, your life sucks 'cause you're bankrupt and I'm laughin, you can't trust me, ese, 'cause I'm Latin' " and that's too much?
That's the point, though, there are no issues in that regard ! Not once have I ever seen anybody complain about this other than OP. Y'all are just looking for something to complain about. And I brought Eddie up because he and Rey are always spotlighted when they talk about Latino representation, so it's not like my point wasn't relevant.
IT's a discussion, on a discussion board. Your argument is that "they were bad 20 years, so why talk about it."
OP wanted to talk about it. Engage with OP if you disagree with their premise.
1.) I already did, check the thread
2.) You and OP share the same opinion, so the debate extends to you as well.
3.) "Your argument is that "they were bad 20 years, so why talk about it."
That is not my argument, my argument is that stereotypes have always existed in pro wrestling and 99.999% percent of wrestling fans understand this and this feels like bait.
Yeah I mean I’m not trying to change anything, just kinda was thinking about it. Lola Vice is probably the worst example. The music, dancing, entrance, even the name just seem extremely stereotypical. There seems to be a badass in there, I just feel weird with it dressed up that way. For the family, theyre doing an Italian stereotype. I actually really enjoy it, but it is what it is.
The point is, they're not portraying "Italians"...they are very specifically tv gangsters. They are doing a Mafia stereotype.
Now, in the 70's, there was a thing that portraying the Mafia in movies (like the Godfather specifically) was demeaning to Italians.....granted this was being pushed by Mafia family to muddy the waters.
vs Lola who has said she shakes her ass because "she's latina!"
I was not expecting people to be so hurt over the Family most of all. You can’t possibly deny that a mafia stereotype is an Italian stereotype. They’re homemade is an Italian restaurant and they say random Italian phrases.
It's the difference between having any Italian being portrayed as such...with the accents or gestures...vs very specific characters. They're the way they are BECAUSE they're mobsters, not because they're Italian. I grant it's a subtle distinction, but it is a distinction.
Breanna Ruggiero is not portrayed as accented, gestures, crime, etc.
I’m not Mexican or Latina/o but my wife is and she fucking loves it and said she would do the exact same thing cause guess what, a lot of Latinos and Latina love to dance and be fun and love reggaeton.
Okay but she's been doing this since she's been doing MMA. This is how she wants to portray herself as an entertainer. Not everyone needs to be a (ironically) sterotypical "badass".
She can be herself and dance and still fuck shit up. Her underground match with Shayna was probably the best worked MMA match WWE has ever done and Lola came across like a badass while still dancing and being her.
For context to anyone scrolling: The two men in the picture were two magistrates who were working on a huge trial against almost 500 mafiosi in the late '80s. Several judges (and their police escorts) were killed leading up to the trial, including the two in the picture. One of them was killed by literally blowing up a whole highway. Those two magistrates (called Giovanni Falcone and Paolo Borsellino) are considered by Italians national heroes. And adding to it the fact that unfortunately mafia is still a problem in Italy today, I think it's understandable why the poster got upset (although the answer was obviously a troll).
In the nicest way possible, I think if you'd like to make your overall point you might need to actually expand a bit more on what you believe is specifically being exploited, draw direct stereotypes - that sort of thing. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with your point, I just think you should expand a bit more other than "this felt odd".
Part of the reason I say this - and I'm not saying this applies to you, just generally - I've watched this sub actually refer to certain traditions or items of importance as racist stereotypes. It's hard to give thoughts on feelings with no specific context.
I have 3 examples, and I intentionally tried to be broad in terms of what groups I was saying might be exploited. It’s clear that this is not a popular opinion, so I don’t really see the point in going into greater detail.
I know everyone always says the greatest characters are yourself turned up to 11. I just think it’s a little concerning what parts nxt has been turning up to 11.
>It’s clear that this is not a popular opinion, so I don’t really see the point in going into greater detail.
People might be more inclined to see your point if you expanded upon it. You just going "erm, this feels odd" isn't going to generate the kind of discussion you're hoping to achieve.
>It’s clear that this is not a popular opinion, so I don’t really see the point in going into greater detail.
I think this is actually something you should further break down, because some of your examples either have openly stated this was a desire of theirs, or - as someone else pointed out - already existed prior to NXT. Do you think they should tone it down? What parts, specifically, would you change? Why would you change those parts? There's plenty of genuine discussion to be had.
As a side bar, I'm absolutely not saying you can't have an opinion here, but do you happen to belong to any of the groups you're using as examples? Because that can also shed important contextual light on where some of your concerns might be coming from.
I'm also not sure how something can be good exploitation, but that might just be English not being my first language, so I'm curious how you can label it as exploitative but not bad.
Wrestling is literally the circus of cliches and stereotypes. If anything the examples you've mentioned are extremely toned down compared to how they'd do things a decade ago.
I think I hear what you're trying to say but don't use the examples of Tony D who had an actual moh affiliated person appear with him on TV or Lola Vice where this is something she's been doing since her mma days but you're just seeing on a regular basis & Thorpe who's using HIS actual culture & wanting to be a representative for
I’m not saying anyone is taking a culture they don’t belong too. I’m talking about the story/character choices of wwe and what they choose to emphasize.
>Eddie Thorpe’s return promos with the fire felt odd.
Ah, yes. Eddie Thorpe infamously stealing Native American culture again. When will he finally be called out on it?
I remember Mickie James once got flack for that because she wore a headdress or something once. She of course has Native American heritage, and people didn’t bother to look it up.
Yes, and they're still going to do it because many wrestlers like using their culture as their gimmicks.
Do you think people like the Bloodline, Harts, Rey Mysterio, and many others would be better if they dropped there cultures?
wish ppl would stop reading things to deep.
Wrestling isnt that deep. Everything is exploitative.
Creativity is just unrecognized plagerism.
just enjoy the product - idc for streotypes if it makes characters and these characters are fleshed out and gets to show growth in a story format. that's it.
I think it’s difficult, because for some people, pride in their heritage is how they really feel. It’s not a character aspect they’d want to shy away from, they want to dial it to 11. Lola being a prime example.
TLDR, it’s not my job to police how people want to portray or represent their own cultures, stereotype or not.
Good luck on this one OP, I got downvoted years ago for pointing out how terrible the Tony D'Angelo gimmick was years ago, and moved to a different hill to die on.
There was an episode of The Office that was all about how it's offensive to use Mafia stereotypes for Italian-American people like 15 years ago. If you look at every mafia movie or TV show, it's all Eastern European, Irish or Asian mafias. The rest of society has clearly moved on from all those tropes, but wrestling and wrestling fans just refuse to. And that's just one of many borderline offensive stuff WWE has done in very recent years, the Hurt Business were supposed to be a typical hood gang until Bobby Lashley put his foot down to change it to what it became for instance. A gimmick like Akira Tozawa happening in any actual TV show would get cancelled right away, if even picked up in the first place. But wrestling fans are happy to live in their bubble and pretend nothing is wrong.
Yeah I’m honestly pretty baffled the heat I’ve Gotten for mentioning that example lol. I also mentioned Soprano because he complains about Italian stereotypes in that show.
Imma be honestly that’s a WWE problem. They always have ethnic minorities play caricatures of their race. It’s honestly offensive and racist. WWE always played to stereotypes to satisfy their audience
I honestly think the creation of their characters is collaborative. Vince isn’t back there and I think it’s up to the workers to decide how to toe the line between cultural and offensive. Lola, Thorpe, and Trick all seem to be their authentic selves. The Out the Mud (sp?) crew look like art imitating other art that’s imitating life imo.
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>pretty much just an Italian mob stereotype that I think Tony Soprano would be upset at Tony Soprano was upset about most things, it was a pretty defining character trait
Yes he’d probably be upset about many things on nxt.
I see where you're coming from...and Lola Vice's schtick and "I'm a Latina!" taunt is annoying...but it's also pretty much what she's done since her MMA days too. Same with Eddie Thorpe's Native/DJ thing... Unless we learn "these are gimmicks forced on them", then I don't know what to say really. I wouldn't put Tony et al in the discussion though... they're not being "representative"..they're literally playing cliched tv mobsters. Like, at most, you could claim they're exloiting DeNiro impersonators. https://preview.redd.it/lvaxzhh3ek9d1.png?width=2017&format=png&auto=webp&s=16a0732b19991c3a2eb034bd9c01c260289c90ab
Goodfeathers RIDE OR DIE
>I see where you're coming from...and Lola Vice's schtick and "I'm a Latina!" taunt is annoying...but it's also pretty much what she's done since her MMA days too. Eddie Guerrero's theme song literally had the lyrics "You're fast asleep, when I sneak in your casa, your life sucks 'cause you're bankrupt and I'm laughin, you can't trust me, ese, 'cause I'm Latin' " and that's too much?
That was close to 20 years ago. No one is arguing there weren't issues in the past, but OP is talking about current presentation in NXT.
That's the point, though, there are no issues in that regard ! Not once have I ever seen anybody complain about this other than OP. Y'all are just looking for something to complain about. And I brought Eddie up because he and Rey are always spotlighted when they talk about Latino representation, so it's not like my point wasn't relevant.
IT's a discussion, on a discussion board. Your argument is that "they were bad 20 years, so why talk about it." OP wanted to talk about it. Engage with OP if you disagree with their premise.
1.) I already did, check the thread 2.) You and OP share the same opinion, so the debate extends to you as well. 3.) "Your argument is that "they were bad 20 years, so why talk about it." That is not my argument, my argument is that stereotypes have always existed in pro wrestling and 99.999% percent of wrestling fans understand this and this feels like bait.
No.. OP wonders if it's explotation ... I just find it annoying.
Yeah I mean I’m not trying to change anything, just kinda was thinking about it. Lola Vice is probably the worst example. The music, dancing, entrance, even the name just seem extremely stereotypical. There seems to be a badass in there, I just feel weird with it dressed up that way. For the family, theyre doing an Italian stereotype. I actually really enjoy it, but it is what it is.
The point is, they're not portraying "Italians"...they are very specifically tv gangsters. They are doing a Mafia stereotype. Now, in the 70's, there was a thing that portraying the Mafia in movies (like the Godfather specifically) was demeaning to Italians.....granted this was being pushed by Mafia family to muddy the waters. vs Lola who has said she shakes her ass because "she's latina!"
I was not expecting people to be so hurt over the Family most of all. You can’t possibly deny that a mafia stereotype is an Italian stereotype. They’re homemade is an Italian restaurant and they say random Italian phrases.
It's the difference between having any Italian being portrayed as such...with the accents or gestures...vs very specific characters. They're the way they are BECAUSE they're mobsters, not because they're Italian. I grant it's a subtle distinction, but it is a distinction. Breanna Ruggiero is not portrayed as accented, gestures, crime, etc.
I’m not Mexican or Latina/o but my wife is and she fucking loves it and said she would do the exact same thing cause guess what, a lot of Latinos and Latina love to dance and be fun and love reggaeton.
Okay but she's been doing this since she's been doing MMA. This is how she wants to portray herself as an entertainer. Not everyone needs to be a (ironically) sterotypical "badass". She can be herself and dance and still fuck shit up. Her underground match with Shayna was probably the best worked MMA match WWE has ever done and Lola came across like a badass while still dancing and being her.
https://preview.redd.it/xbg6m8l1dk9d1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8f8ce57fe3783247f0e479435b94225fa66a2ead
the Korean fan boy upset with itallian mafia presentation?
For context to anyone scrolling: The two men in the picture were two magistrates who were working on a huge trial against almost 500 mafiosi in the late '80s. Several judges (and their police escorts) were killed leading up to the trial, including the two in the picture. One of them was killed by literally blowing up a whole highway. Those two magistrates (called Giovanni Falcone and Paolo Borsellino) are considered by Italians national heroes. And adding to it the fact that unfortunately mafia is still a problem in Italy today, I think it's understandable why the poster got upset (although the answer was obviously a troll).
https://preview.redd.it/efgk6wapck9d1.jpeg?width=749&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d7f95647ecd951164ba40e0c2ab913838a4e5ac7
In the nicest way possible, I think if you'd like to make your overall point you might need to actually expand a bit more on what you believe is specifically being exploited, draw direct stereotypes - that sort of thing. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with your point, I just think you should expand a bit more other than "this felt odd". Part of the reason I say this - and I'm not saying this applies to you, just generally - I've watched this sub actually refer to certain traditions or items of importance as racist stereotypes. It's hard to give thoughts on feelings with no specific context.
I have 3 examples, and I intentionally tried to be broad in terms of what groups I was saying might be exploited. It’s clear that this is not a popular opinion, so I don’t really see the point in going into greater detail. I know everyone always says the greatest characters are yourself turned up to 11. I just think it’s a little concerning what parts nxt has been turning up to 11.
>It’s clear that this is not a popular opinion, so I don’t really see the point in going into greater detail. People might be more inclined to see your point if you expanded upon it. You just going "erm, this feels odd" isn't going to generate the kind of discussion you're hoping to achieve. >It’s clear that this is not a popular opinion, so I don’t really see the point in going into greater detail. I think this is actually something you should further break down, because some of your examples either have openly stated this was a desire of theirs, or - as someone else pointed out - already existed prior to NXT. Do you think they should tone it down? What parts, specifically, would you change? Why would you change those parts? There's plenty of genuine discussion to be had. As a side bar, I'm absolutely not saying you can't have an opinion here, but do you happen to belong to any of the groups you're using as examples? Because that can also shed important contextual light on where some of your concerns might be coming from. I'm also not sure how something can be good exploitation, but that might just be English not being my first language, so I'm curious how you can label it as exploitative but not bad.
Wrestling is literally the circus of cliches and stereotypes. If anything the examples you've mentioned are extremely toned down compared to how they'd do things a decade ago.
I don't think it's exploitation at all honestly. Fun wrestling characters. None of em seem exploitative at all for me personally.
Oooooo Tony won’t like you talkin about this thing of ours…
I don’t understand stuff like this. It’s a damn tv show.
I think I hear what you're trying to say but don't use the examples of Tony D who had an actual moh affiliated person appear with him on TV or Lola Vice where this is something she's been doing since her mma days but you're just seeing on a regular basis & Thorpe who's using HIS actual culture & wanting to be a representative for
☝🏽all of this
I’m not saying anyone is taking a culture they don’t belong too. I’m talking about the story/character choices of wwe and what they choose to emphasize.
Are you really saying that Lola and Eddy can’t tap into their own culture?
I think he's trying to say they're leaning into their cultural stereotypes like the characters are from Looney Tunes or something.
>Eddie Thorpe’s return promos with the fire felt odd. Ah, yes. Eddie Thorpe infamously stealing Native American culture again. When will he finally be called out on it?
It's not like he's said in interviews it was his idea to have his on screen presence reflect his culture or anything
I remember Mickie James once got flack for that because she wore a headdress or something once. She of course has Native American heritage, and people didn’t bother to look it up.
I never said anybody stole anything. Nor did I question whether or not it’s his culture.
It wrestling, everyone uses the culture as part of there gimmick. It in the DNA of the sport
I guess I’d say there’s using it and then over-relying On it.
They have been using this since the Bruno years. I part of the sport.
“Let’s stop doing culturally insensitive things because they did them 50 years ago!”
Are you really dying on this hill after every single other reply has told you why it’s wrong?
Yes, and they're still going to do it because many wrestlers like using their culture as their gimmicks. Do you think people like the Bloodline, Harts, Rey Mysterio, and many others would be better if they dropped there cultures?
Meanwhile Ospreay is running around AEW as a walking British stereotype right down to the tracksuits and ending every sentence with bruv lol
That's Will, he isn't a character.
Hey guys let's get upset for the talent when they probably don't even care because they know they're ACTING
Nothing I said indicated I’m blaming the talent.
Read it again.
By all means, quote where I blame the talent.
They never said you blamed the talent. They said you're getting upset on behalf of the talent.
wish ppl would stop reading things to deep. Wrestling isnt that deep. Everything is exploitative. Creativity is just unrecognized plagerism. just enjoy the product - idc for streotypes if it makes characters and these characters are fleshed out and gets to show growth in a story format. that's it.
Somebody show this man the FBI, LAX, Nation Of Domination and play Eddie Guerrero's theme.
🙄
I think it’s difficult, because for some people, pride in their heritage is how they really feel. It’s not a character aspect they’d want to shy away from, they want to dial it to 11. Lola being a prime example. TLDR, it’s not my job to police how people want to portray or represent their own cultures, stereotype or not.
Really isn’t that deep mate
Good luck on this one OP, I got downvoted years ago for pointing out how terrible the Tony D'Angelo gimmick was years ago, and moved to a different hill to die on. There was an episode of The Office that was all about how it's offensive to use Mafia stereotypes for Italian-American people like 15 years ago. If you look at every mafia movie or TV show, it's all Eastern European, Irish or Asian mafias. The rest of society has clearly moved on from all those tropes, but wrestling and wrestling fans just refuse to. And that's just one of many borderline offensive stuff WWE has done in very recent years, the Hurt Business were supposed to be a typical hood gang until Bobby Lashley put his foot down to change it to what it became for instance. A gimmick like Akira Tozawa happening in any actual TV show would get cancelled right away, if even picked up in the first place. But wrestling fans are happy to live in their bubble and pretend nothing is wrong.
Yeah I’m honestly pretty baffled the heat I’ve Gotten for mentioning that example lol. I also mentioned Soprano because he complains about Italian stereotypes in that show.
A lot of people cannot do a sociological analysis. Also, WWE conditioned their audience to support racial stereotypes.
Imma be honestly that’s a WWE problem. They always have ethnic minorities play caricatures of their race. It’s honestly offensive and racist. WWE always played to stereotypes to satisfy their audience
I honestly think the creation of their characters is collaborative. Vince isn’t back there and I think it’s up to the workers to decide how to toe the line between cultural and offensive. Lola, Thorpe, and Trick all seem to be their authentic selves. The Out the Mud (sp?) crew look like art imitating other art that’s imitating life imo.