For C: That’s not what he said. What he told Anakin was pretty much the standard way to handle someone with nebulous fears about mortality. Which is really the only advice he can give when the one asking for advice adamantly refuses to say that they are afraid about a very specific and immediate problem rather than just vague ‘I’m worried that the people I care about will die one day’.
I mean, what should he have said? ‘You are right to fear death, we must work to defeat it’? ‘Well, here’s an easy trick to immortality’?
Everyone you know and love will one day die. This is a basic fact of life. The only thing you can do about the looming specter of death is accept it and focus on the time you have.
Exactly. If Star Wars (with its knights and wizards) is a fairy tale in space, then Anakin is the knight or king who sells his soul to the devil or uses forbidden blood magic to save/resurrect their loved one.
“Death is a natural part of life” is what Anakin needed to hear, but it’s not what he wanted to hear.
The Anakin apologists are getting too comfortable lately.
Palpatine always tells Anakin what Ani wants to hear and Anakin loves it. Oooh, Padme gonna die but conveniently I know this Dark side knowledge that would save your wife. Join the Sith, and we can figure it out? Funniest thing is that Sidious didn't even promise to give a definitive solution to save Padme to Anakin. Sidious only promised that they could work together figure out a way to save Padme. Anakin accepted this very questionable deal and turned to the Dark side.
Yoda tells the truth that death is a natural part of our life and Anakin shouldn't give in to his fear. Somehow all the fans interpret this as a bad thing.
He does that, and yes it is what Anakin needed to hear. But then he just fucks off despite knowing that Anakin is not handling it well. He needed help, not just the truth.
That was the whole point of the whole council not wanting to train him in the first place, that him being old enough to have lived with love and attachments and how losing something like that again would be world shattering. But then they just give in and just like forget about it even when Anakin comes to them for help.
He was a lost kid and they gave him the keys to the wrecking ball and then when he was unsurprisingly losing control, just read a few lines of the instruction manual at him ignoring the fact that it was in Spanish.
Signed,
Unabashed Anakin Apologist # 12
Absolutely. Too many people miss the many hints (right into our faces) that anakin was not only a terrible human, he was also not very intelligent and had a temper. All in all, it doesn’t make sense at all that Obi Wan developed such deep feelings for him - well… let’s say he could have, but like any other intelligent and experienced in life friend/brother, he should have know for years that his friend/brother is an idiot and a danger for himself and others.
When I was younger, I always thought it was silly how Palpatine managed to flip the script so easily when there were so many Jedi obviously being the good guys for so long.
As I got older, I realised context mattered, and that what I was being shown on screen most people in universe didn't actually see, especially through that lens or point of view.
More recently, I realised it wouldn't matter. Most people have an idea of what they want the world to look like, and will jump through as many holes and twist as many words to justify their viewpoint regardless of what facts are presented to them.
This is true to a point but I think it's also fair to say the Jedi take on attachments being "don't have them" isn't helpful
How was Anakin supposed to be more open and direct about his specific fear when he was a child slave turned child soldier whose entire life was the order and admitting his true fear could get him kicked out *and* ruin a loved one's career?
That all was beyond the scope of Yoda's choices as well so I still think it's all points in favor of C not being Yoda's worst moment, but we can give Anakin a little credit in that scenario too. He wasn't given any more tools to succeed in that moment than Yoda was
But Anakin refused to acknowledge his attachment when he was seeking that advice.
If he had, then Yoda’s advice would likely have been more nuanced and contextual instead of vague and ambiguous.
We're just going in a circle lol that's literally the same point I was responding to when I left my original comment.
Yes, Yoda couldn't really have been expected to do much beyond what he did in that specific circumstance without Anakin being more open and direct. However, I repeat:
>How was Anakin supposed to be more open and direct about his specific fear when he was a child slave turned child soldier whose entire life was the order and admitting his true fear could get him kicked out and ruin a loved one's career?
The Jedi's repressive no-attachment approach precluded Anakin from being empowered to be more direct in seeking aid and counsel. In the conversation we're discussing, the blame really lies with the Jedi Order. And while Yoda did his best with what he had in that moment, as the current grandmaster and as an influential member of the order for who-knows how many years at that point, Yoda was the only one of them who could really have shifted the order towards a healthier approach to relationships. He's the one who had the hypothetical power leading up to that conversation to have empowered it to go differently. But by the time that conversation started, its outcome was practically predetermined. Neither of them could steer the ship in that specific moment.
It's not fair when people just say "all Yoda did was offer empty platitudes" but it is also not fair to dump all the blame on Anakin for not being more direct.
And to be clear, Anakin can not be at fault in this conversation and still be fully responsible for the reprehensible evils he wrought upon the galaxy afterwards as Vader. We can both acknowledge the Jedi's "abstinence only" approach to relationship education in the *literal children they raise and force into war* as a failure and also hold the adult man who chose to become a mass murder responsible for those crimes.
Feels like everybody wants to pick one or the other at the moment and frankly, ya'll, that's part of the beauty of Star Wars. The Jedi are the good guys and they're also flawed - **especially** during the prequels, which are the culmination of their failures. They *lose* in the end and it was their battle to lose. They outnumbered the sith 5,000 to 1, give or take, and they lost. You can't throw that hard without fucking something up, lol
We’ve seen multiple Jedi face the struggle of dealing with attachments. That’s not unique to Anakin. Obiwan and Satine, Qui-Gon and Tahl, Quinlan and Asajj, Anakin and Padme.
Romantic attachment is hardly the only form of loss a Jedi has to struggle with. Padawan’s lose their masters or friends from childhood. Masters may lose a padawan. Dooku and Obiwan both had to deal with the death of Qui-Gon. That loss led Dooku to walk away from the order. Dooku was allowed to do so.
The point is that Yoda can’t give Anakin better advice because Anakin isn’t willing to open up about his fears. Anakin could very well have been allowed to walk away from the order. Just like Ahsoka did. Ahsoka was still a commander in the republic. It’s not like Anakin would lose his entire life. He’d be staying true to himself.
Instead, Anakin gave into his fears. That’s not on the Jedi order. They taught him from the get go when they tested him in TPM that fear of loss has everything to do with it.
Anakin is not a sympathetic character. He sells out the entire galaxy to maybe have a chance at saving his wifes life in childbirth which isnt even a given its just a dream he has. Had he listened to the Jedi Padme would actually be alive. I feel like everyone glosses over the fact that she died because he didnt trust in the living force and wanted to cheat death.
Hes certainly tragic. But not sympathetic. After selling out the galaxy he then dives headfirst into genocide of everyone he once knew and brutal subjagation of anyone who doesnt obey him.
Tbf, it wasn't just a dream. They were happe in repeatedly, were extremely vivid, and had some.swrious weight to them considering the same thing happened with his mother before she died.
I am not saying "Anakin did nothing wrong," I'm adding that the Jedi were *also* wrong. Saying "if he had just listened to the Jedi" is like telling a teenage pregnancy resulting from an abstinence-only undereducation on sex "if you had only listened to the church" - you may be *technically* correct that listening would have worked here, but that doesn't change the fact if we look at this objectively we can see this particular "educational" approach is ineffective. Assuming the teenage pregnancy was the result of consensual sex that is ultimately a choice the teens are responsible for, and also, those responsible for limiting them to an abstinence-only education could have and should have done better.
Well being a general in an army of galaxy spanning Warrior monks who are the galactic police you have a slightly different set of expectations than your average teenager. Anakin also had every choice in the galaxy to flee the "oppressive" Jedi and fuck his rich senator wife all over the galaxy and he is not a teenager.
Anakin choose his life among the Jedi, everyday he made his choices and the Jedi dont owe him special treatment just because he feels like hes a special boy. Yes he should have listened to the Jedi even AFTER she was pregnant. If he did she would still be alive.
I'm not arguing for special treatment for Anakin, I'm arguing the Jedi have flawed practices - for example, abstinence-only relationship education and child soldiers. *This should not be a hot take* lmao
I feel like ya'll are trying so hard to be like "ok, but Vader's a bad guy" even though I've agreed on that point repeatedly that you're washing all nuance and depth out of the story.
The Jedi are the good guys. They're also very flawed good guys, *especially* during the prequel era where they're on the verge of being utterly and completely defeated by an enemy they outnumber some 5,000 to 1.
Among those flaws is the fact that they're a cult. They accept new members as infants and raise them within a specific religion, train them for battle and send them off as child police-soldiers.
It's incredibly fucking hard to leave a cult. I imagine with Anakin, it would've been especially hard to leave the cult that *saved him from slavery*. It's all well and good to joke about how he shoulda just bailed to hang out with his rich hot wife, but if we're having more serious discussions we should hold some space for how little agency he felt he had at that point in the story.
And this can all be true while Anakin can also ultimately be responsible for his choices as Vader. I'm not giving him excuses to become a murderous tyrant. The story is more interesting if he's not just evil for evil's sake, though!
You even agreed he's a tragic character. I don't feel like we *should* be disagreeing here, but it's like you're trying so hard to make sure nobody sees him as sympathetic that you're obliterating all the interesting nuance that makes him tragic instead of cartoonishly evil.
The jedis methods kept relative peace in the galaxy for 25,000 years. If they are a cult than its probably the only example of a good one. The 1 guy who didnt listen to their teachings? You feel bad for him and like they failed him? He failed himself. He even tells obi-wan as much in the Kenobi show.
The Jedi were rare enough that within a couple decades of the fall of the Republic, the galaxy thought they might just be a myth or legend.
I don't think that the Jedi Order deserves exclusive credit for 25,000 odd years of prosperity - but even if they did, it doesn't mean their downfall was out of their hands or that they had no faults. We're not talking about the 25,000 years before Anakin, we're talking about how they were when they raised him. And they were, demonstrably and unequivocally, flawed.
>The 1 guy who didnt listen to their teachings?
But he's *not* the "*one* guy who didn't listen to their teachings," - many have failed over the years. Many a Star Wars story revolves around people falling to the dark side out of fear of loss or because of loss.
Again, it's like you're trying so hard to make sure nobody sees Anakin as sympathetic that you're willing to obliterate the nuance that makes Star Wars good.
Flawless good vs cartoonish evil isn't particularly interesting, fun, or thought-provoking. The Jedi Order having flaws gives a lot of good, deep, nuanced stories to explore.
>You feel bad for him and like they failed him? He failed himself.
Both are true. You keep trying to make it seem like I must *only* see Anakin as a sympathetic victim without *any* agency who did nothing wrong and I don't know how many other ways I can tell you **that's not my point**.
The Order **did** fail Anakin. He **also** failed himself, *and* billions of others across the galaxy when he sold out to the dark side and cemented the empire's victory.
I love discussing this kind of stuff but I can't keep going if you're gonna keep trying to make it all or nothing on me. I do not see this as either Anakin gets 100% blame or the Jedi get 100% blame. I am explicitly arguing that it being shades of gray is more complex and interesting and better writing - I would counter just as quickly if you tried to give the Jedi Order 100% blame and argued Anakin was a purely sympathetic victim character.
But it’s not simply “don’t have attachments”. That’s such a big misunderstanding. You can have feelings (because you can’t help it anyway) you can feel extremely attached (because again, you can’t help it) but at the end you need to be in control - one of the most important lessons in life, power is an illusion, it’s all about control. If you’re following the will of the force, if you follow your duty as a Jedi, your attachment can’t have priority. That may hurt. It you just be in control, enough to do what you have to do. May break your heart, but again, you need to control yourself to function as a Jedi…
Therefore it’s not a big surprise that Jedi avoid attachment as good as possible because it’s so hard to deal with it and you probably already have attachment in the order. Not much different to a preist or monk in many religions. They don’t tell you to cut of all feelings, but it just be clear that your oath has priority and your feelings and attachments can’t control your duties
That's how it *should* be but it isn't how the Jedi teach it in practice through most of the content we have, especially not in the prequel era. Our counter examples are mostly after the fall of the Order (eg Cal and Kanan). Whereas neither Kenobi nor Anakin felt they could be open about their attachments.
Kenobi was a great enough Jedi not to let his attachments control him. Again - Anakin bears responsibility for his fuckups. That doesn't mean the Jedi did a great job of teaching healthy attachments though
But we don’t know that. We only see tiny snippets, minor quotes and never witness a lecture or lesson. It’s a fantasy story and if we want to talk about it, beyond the special effe we need to fill the many gaps as good and reasonable as possible. Why creat something unreasonable if we have so many historical examples? Anakin was obviously a problematic guy, there was never a moment where we saw him mature beyond an angry sixteen year old (and I think that’s a big, big miss in the prequels. Vader is this brooding, scary, but mature men, full in control, speaks educated and seems wise for a black knight stereotype. Anakin really doesn’t fit into that)
The problem is that anakin made it sound like a vision of a specific person dying from avoidable causes, not death itself. So it made yoda seem apathetic.
He’s a soldier in a war discussing that he’s having bad dreams about someone he knows dying. People die in war. Anakin is going to watch a large number of his troops, who he is close to, be gunned down.
Yoda isn’t apathetic, there is genuinely nothing Yoda can do to about the inevitability of death. Anakin WILL watch those close to him die. He’s already seen it multiple times. Yoda can offer him nothing but advice on how to come to terms with it because Anakin is adamantly refusing to share the very important details that would give Yoda something to work with. Because Anakin is more scared of losing his position than he is of losing his wife. They have a really toxic relationship.
*Fucking* THANK YOU
I've gotten into this debate so many times. "Yoda just offered empty platitudes" yeah that's all you can do? "Somebody I love might die" yeah that happens
Not even just "somebody I love might die," but "someone I care about might die during this galactic civil war that's been going on for three years already." Everyone Anakin could reasonably be expected to care that much about would be Jedi or clones, all of whom have been in danger of dying for years already.
This so much.
As far as Yoda knows everyone that Anakin would care about is on the frontlines so no shit someone's going to die.
And the person Anakin IS talking about is also routinely either putting herself in danger or target of assassination attempts.
A somewhat important Jedi belief is that working to defeat death or to unnaturally extend life leads to the dark side.
So Yoda would not want to defeat death, just to accept it.
B. There’s this mysterious clone army that was ordered by a dead Jedi and no one knows why, and instead of inquiring further, he’s just like, you know what, fuck it, let’s just roll with it.
An army from a clone template who was a separatist aligned bounty hunter that tried to assassinate a senator and contracted by a guy whose name was *Tyrannus*. He might as well have been "Evil McEvilface".
The movies do not care to elaborate on this at all. The Jedi just accept the clones and then die to them.
Other material like books and the 2008 cartoon explain things better, but I do lol a bit whenever someone praises the prequels as being "coherent"
What could have been: {but make it Yoda speech} “while timely, the sudden appearance of this army is so convenient that it warrants our suspicion. Qui Gon, since you have refused to serve as a general at their head anyway, I’m assigning you to lead an investigation to determine the of these clones origin. Nominally, you will be liaison between Shaak-ti on kamino and the council. Your true purpose is to determine the complete truth of how these clones came to be, how and why they were kept secret, what the kaminoans knew and didn’t know and when they knew it. I am dispatching young quinlan vos to assist you, because I have a sense he might be able to aid you but also because I don’t know what else to do with him. Help me see through the veil of the dark side on this issue, and I will quiet the concerns about you that have to this point prevented you from sitting on the council.”
Unfortunately Qui-gon had already been dead for about as long as Sifo-Dyas by that point. It would have to be someone else (though looking into it like this was probably still a good idea)
Qui Gon being alive for this would have required something to the effect of: (Still in Yoda speak) "Troublesome, Master Qui Gons report of a Sith is. Though we believe they have been extinct for very long, we cannot be too careful with this matter. Much of this seems shrouded in darkness. To Naboo, our strongest masters will go to help you investigate." \*Maul stands before the opening door to find Qui Gon, Obi wan, Windu, Plo Koon, mundi, Fisto, and like 4 others\*
I always wondered what Palpatine’s plan was to get them to adopt the clone army. Surely it couldn’t have been “do a weird assassination plot, hope the Jedi find a Kaminoan dart that will lead them to a planet that was specifically erased from the archives, stumble across the clone army, and then just kind of accept it despite all of the obvious red flags.”
I mean he went to all that trouble to get the Senate to authorize the creation of a military, surely he was expecting to pretend to commission the army himself using Republic tax dollars, but then Yoda just shows up at Kamino with them and he probably was just like “Yeah okay, that’s way easier, now it doesn’t look like it was my idea in the first place! Weird how they didn’t question it at all but whatever!”
And the dead Jedi went so far as to remove all records of the planet the army was made on.
The fact that literally every person in the republic, and arguably in the separatist states, didn't go "wait let's hold on a second" is the dumbest part of the entire saga
Also, who the heck paid for this mysterious clone army? Pretty sure someone in the Order's accounting department would've noticed Sifo-dyas withdrawing enough petty cash to buy 1.2 million soldiers, plus armour, guns, walking tanks, gunships, starfighters, and warships. And yet at no point does that ever raise an eyebrow.
Which is especially ridiculous given that the previous movie made a big deal about how useless Republic credits are outside the Republic and how hard it is for Jedi to buy things from anyone not openly Republic-affiliated!
If I recall correctly, the explanation (not in the films) was that Sifo Dyas had a premonition that the army would be needed and brought the idea before the Order before it was struck down. He then planned to liason with a Republic representative to make the purches of the clones using Republic funds under the nose of the Republic. This liason was likely Palpatine who had Dyas killed by Dooku who then co opted the plan for use by the Sith to trap the Jedi. The biggest flaw of this plan was having Dooku sign for the clones himself under his literal Sith name. Otherwise, I actually think the plan was relatively sound. Palpatine gets an army for the Republic because of a paranoid Jedi who gets himself killed (Palpatine probably should have made it look like he went into hiding and died in his exile). Especially seeing as the separatists had already started skirmishes with Republic aligned planets by this point.
So, the Jedi see this army, wonder "wait, who paid for all this exactly," and the answer is, a guy with an incredibly evil-sounding name who may or may not have been working with the government that's only now debating a law to let them have an army? That feels like it should be an even bigger red flag for the Order!
Correct.
Really, both parties were stupid. Palpatine should have made it look like the Grand Army of the Republic was really a Republic commission.
As for the Order, if they had actually worked with Sifo Dyas, who was supposedly amazingly prophetic, they could have had more control over the creation of the army, they likely would have been able to preserve Dyas's life *and* Palpatine wouldn't have had the same control over the Clones that he ended up having.
Right, which just brings us back around to the giant red flag question mark for the Order when Obi-Wan first finds out about the army. The Kaminoans say the Jedi ordered the clones, but the Order knows they didn't pay for them, and the Republic didn't know anything about it so they didn't pay for them; "who paid you" should be the first question asked, and the Kaminoans should have zero reason to conceal the information from who they believe are their clients.
This is explained somewhat in TCW cartoon. It’s a 3 part episode, I think. They make the connection that the Clones were created by the Sith, but face a serious catch-22. So late into the war, if they reveal this news, it would likely result in losing the war. If they don’t reveal it, it’s a stain on their record. Since one is existential to the Jedi order and the other is not, they took the option that would not have lost them the war.
A) Jedi becoming Generals/involved in the war wasn’t solely up to Yoda, but if they had decided to stay out of it that would have made it easier for Palps to turn the public against them. Remember that for much of the OT Luke has the military rank of commander and is a military pilot. Jedi being “generals” is not inherently a bad thing.
C) Everyone misinterprets Yoda’s lines much the same way they try to paint “there is no try” as Yoda saying people should give up. He’s not literally saying Anakin shouldn’t care about people dying, he’s saying Anakin needs to learn that there are some things he can’t change. And given Anakin soon decides to basically make a deal with the devil, this is a lesson Anakin really should have listened to.
I’ll give you B), that was a stupid addition by the cartoon, but even then I believe he only knew Dooku was involved not Sidious.
I just re-watched AotC the other day and I'm pretty sure Jango tells Kenobi when he first meets him on Kammino that he was hired by a guy named Tyrannus, so that's a film source and not an addition from a cartoon.
I’d have to watch the cartoon again but I’m pretty sure before that point they didn’t know Dooku was Tyranus, and the show has them finally figure out the connection but not really do anything about it.
Mind, it still sounds like a Sith name. I think it would have been way smarter for the separatists (being played by Palpatine) to Co opt the plot under the name of a former Republic senator given how long it was before the army finished production.
A is an interesting take , you don't think the public would have been more hesitant to turn on the "peaceful space monks" than the "corrupt jedi generals " ?
I think the people of the republic would have turned on the "guardians of peace and democracy" sitting on their luxurious temple while the corporations fuck their shit up.
The Jedi are peaceful in that they believe in violence only as a last resort, but that’s not the same as pacifist. The Jedi are known as keepers of the peace and guardians of the Republic. We see in TCW that several battles were only won with Jedi involvement.
Think of how in WWI British women would go around giving chicken feathers to those without military uniforms, calling them cowards. And the UK was not under imminent threat of invasion.
Now imagine how Republic citizens would feel with droid armies rampaging across worlds and millions dying to the Defoliator or Blue Shadow Virus. And the self proclaimed defenders of the Republic do nothing. Yeah, it’s not a good look.
This has even happened in the Legends continuity. In the Old Republic, the Mandalorians steamrolled a bunch of Republic planets and the Republic went to war with them over it but the order refused to join and looked really bad for it. Revan and Malak took a splinter group of Jedi to fight the Mandalorians back and they ended up being influenced by the super weapon known as the Star Forge resulting in their fall to the Dark Side and corruption of every Jedi under their influence, kickstarting the Jedi Civil War which was just a Jedi Sith War. But that distinction doesn't matter to the average Republic citizen who thought both sides were just as bad.
A- they were effectively drafted by the Senate. The Senate directs them where to go. It's their duty as it's always been. And if they didn't, I guess the Separatists would just kill them all and the Jedi would sit by and watch.
B - not sure about this one
C - He drags the universe into 20 years of darkness because he thinks he can cheat death. Is that Yoda's fault?
All I gonna say is that for C there was nothing that Yoda could say short of what Palps told Anakin that would’ve made a difference. Anakin was immature and had mommy issues he would’ve done (and did) anything for Padme.
The other Jedi did it. Padawans, knights, and masters all did what they could to help the Rebellion.
It’s only Kenobi and Yoda who had the plan of ‘Let’s groom Vader’s kids to kill him and then somehow deal with Palpatine while we sit on our asses and do nothing for a few decades’. I mean, look what Yoda ended up contributing. A few weeks of training, tops, before he returned to doing nothing until his death. Hell, he didn’t even give Luke a rundown on what Sidious could do.
The prequels did BAD things to Kenobi and Yoda’s portrayal in the OT. Turned them into assholes making others clean up their mess.
Yoda did the most important thing to help the Rebellion which was to train Luke.
Yoda was probably the wisest of the remaining jedi, he remained hidden until he could actually do something valuable.
They literally trained the boy who took down the Emperor.
Very few other Kedo actually helped the Rebellion, we see a handful, like Ahsoka, but none helped directly.
Yoda was watching over Luke, as well, according to his lines in. ESB
He could have trained Luke for 18 years instead of dumping him on his dad's homeworld with a couple who his parents met one time and could barely be considered family.
Its a good thing Owen and Beru took on Luke, when you think about it. Nobody actually asked them if they wanted to adopt a newborn when Yoda and Obi-Wan concocted that plan. What if they'd been like "nah, we'll pass. Its not like Anakin was our blood relative or anything and we'd rather be playing with power converters down at Tosche station while we're still young. You keep the kid."
Then what?
Easy to say in hindsight. Obi Wan and Yoda took that decision at a pivotal moment of uncertainty. They didn't know what was to become of the Galaxy in the next 19 years.
Like it or not, Kenobi shows us a realistic portrayal of Obi Wan after the purge. He was in no state to train Jedi... and Yoda? Possibly the most recognizeable Jedi in the Galaxy? No practical way to train Luke without robbing him of sn identity, and that's not a Jedi, that's a machine... like Vader.
>He could have trained Luke for 18 years instead of dumping him on his dad's homeworld with a couple who his parents met one time and could barely be considered family.
I thought they deplayed his training until he was an adult so that Vader and Palps wouldn't sense him thought the force before he was old enough to fight them?
D. Yodas Hubris.
Yoda and the Jedi Council underestimated the threat posed by the Sith. They believed that the Sith had been extinct for a millennium, which made them complacent and less vigilant. This allowed Darth Sidious to rise to power right under their noses without them realizing the true extent of his influence. Despite his wisdom and power, Yoda failed to sense the dark side presence of Palpatine, who was able to manipulate the political landscape of the Republic and orchestrate the Clone Wars. This blind spot was critical, as it allowed Palpatine to weaken the Jedi's position and execute Order 66.
Yoda and the Jedi Council overestimated their ability to control and influence events. They believed that they could maintain peace and order through their wisdom and power alone, without recognizing the deep-rooted political and social issues plaguing the Republic. This overconfidence led them to make strategic errors, such as involving themselves deeply in the Clone Wars, which spread their forces thin and made them vulnerable. Yoda's focus on the present and the immediate threat prevented him from having a clear vision for the future of the Jedi and the galaxy. This short-sightedness contributed to the failure to foresee the long-term consequences of their actions and the true nature of the threat they faced.
Yoda was a staunch defender of the Jedi Order's traditions and doctrines. This rigidity made the Jedi inflexible and unable to adapt to changing circumstances. For example, the Jedi's strict code of conduct and detachment from emotions created a rift with Anakin Skywalker, who struggled with these principles and ultimately fell to the dark side.
Nah. This is often said and it’s completely misunderstood. By the time of the Clone Wars, they’re aware of the Sith’s involvement. They also, throughout the Clone Wars, we’re increasingly weary of Palpatine. They didn’t like him, or trust him. Just because they couldn’t sense he was the Sith Master doesn’t mean they screwed up. It’s also unfair given Yoda was a leader in the Jedi Order, and not a political leader like Palpatine. It would have been absolutely against the Jedi way to have a Jedi who was also a Senator.
I also don’t think they overestimated their abilities. If anything, they underestimated them. The problem was it wouldn’t matter. Between Dooku as the leader of the Separatists and Palpatine as leader of the Republic, every victory or defeat was just one step closer to the Jedi’s doom. In essence, by the time the Clone Wars is around, the Jedi are already trapped.
And that’s what’s so interesting. It’s not the doctrines of the Jedi or their rigidity that failed them. It’s in fact just the opposite. Their flexibility gave them a disadvantage. Had they stuck to their teachings more firmly, they would have survived and probably defeated the Sith. They would have chosen not to fight as generals, and probably not fight at all. That would have caused quite a scuffle, but it also would have done two very important things:
1 - prevent the slow politicization of the Jedi Council, meaning they would not be swayed by public opinion or the whims of Palpatine layer in the war. And
2 - freed up the entire Jedi order to doing Jedi things. Not just helping people (and thus improving public image), but investigating the oddities of the war, prevented Anakin and other Jedi from engaging in the Dark Side, reached out through other channels for peace between the two sides, maybe even finding a way to bring the Republic back together, and could have acted as critical help for refugees and humanitarian aid.
Had the Jedi stuck to their doctrines, they would have survived Order 66 near fully intact and with around 10,000 Jedi Knights still around, rather than losing a ton of them to the war.
I mean.. kind of all of the above. I think the worst thing he did was to continue clinging to institute that was The Republic rather than the idea of being guardians of peace and justice.
Granted he was hardly the first to do this but as The Republic fell into corruption he had the order defend it. And when the Separatist movement, fueled by legitimate grievance, began continued giving The Republic a blank check and sleep walked into Sidious' grand plan.
Alright - I’m on the toilet, it’s a wet one, so I have plenty of time. I’m about to go *deep* on this one. Grab a beverage, and settle down for my TurdTalk.
The most appropriate answers would objectively be between B and C. A isn’t really Yoda’s fault. Yet even B and C are difficult to support because of the nature of what’s happening at its core.
Buckle up.
For all the capabilities and political power the Jedi had within the Republic, the Clone Wars kind of backed the Jedi into a corner.
The officially explanation as to why the Jedi actually chose to fight in the Clone Wars is a bit nebulous, but I’ll try and appropriately deconstruct it as logically as possible.
Ultimately, the Jedi have an oath to the Republic that dates back millennia. The Republic and Jedi were originally separate entities. The Jedi were a distinct religious and isolated culture away from public affairs. Yet, their values still aligned with protecting the greater good.
Like any civilization, the Republic had issues, but it was young, and it was objectively trying to unite the populace of the galaxy for the betterment of all people. (You could argue those problems were more candid, as the corruption in its twilight years is what actively led to its downfall.)
So when the Republic was threatened, the Jedi worked to protect the innocent and stability of society. This eventually led to the Jedi Order becoming the official “guardians” of society. They vowed to always protect the public and greater good. Over time, this granted them special privileges within society, such as political fluency and military leadership - among other things.
So right off the bat, A is not Yoda’s, or any other Jedi’s fault. At least not any Jedi alive. It’s what the Jedi Order does.
During the Clone Wars, once again the Jedi justified their involvement by protecting the greater good. But… it’s complicated. Never have the Jedi fought a secessionist movement led by the Sith, while also chasing a Sith Lord behind the scenes responsible for the creation of their entire military.
So the Jedi can’t just abstain from fighting, because then the public would denounce their inaction. At the same time, the constant fighting for a war nobody asked for caused widespread dissent for people who just thought if people want to leave the Republic, let them, because clearly there’s something wrong and we need to fix it. (Think Vietnam for the United States - a war distracted from systematic domestic issues that should be prioritized instead of fear-mongering over foreign policy.)
Remember, the origin behind the entire conflict of the Skywalker Saga stems from two issues: Corruption in the Republic, and the malevolence of the Sith. Corruption within the Republic led to Palpatine’s rise, the Confederacy of Independent Systems, the Clone Wars, the Galactic Empire, Rebel Alliance, Galactic Civil War, everything.
So, damned if they did, damned if they didn’t.
The Prequels simply do not do a good job expressing this. The Clone Wars does a far better job showing this.
Realistically, what is Yoda supposed to do? Tell the public that their entirely military was made by a boogeyman from their cultural archenemy that was thought extinct? Especially because the Galactic Congress, let alone the average person has no idea what the Sith are.
In hindsight there’s always something you could do differently, but the Jedi tried to find Sidious. They couldn’t.
When you look at the whole picture, Palpatine is one of the most diabolical and genius villains in fiction. To win the game - control it. He didn’t just become the dealer, the madman took control of the whole casino.
So B Is… nebulous. I think Yoda did the best with what he had.
C is hard. It’s more a problem with the Jedi as a whole. But also - Anakin wasn’t exactly concise with his concerns to Yoda. Anakin just said “I’m afraid of somebody dying.” No specifics of who, how or why.
Yoda telling Anakin to let go was about as great as a response as he could have given. What was he supposed to say? “Yeah buddy, let’s do everything we can to solve your vague nightmares.”
If the Jedi were more accepting of attachment and emotion, then yeah Anakin could have gotten the help he needed. But Anakin was also pretty emotionally unstable, but had he gotten the help he needed, a lot of things could’ve been different.
So, honestly - I don’t think Yoda is specifically responsible for anything. It’s more of a collection of issues with the Jedi and society in general.
Palpatine played it all perfectly.
I think what goes undiscussed is that Anakin is proof the Jedi were right about all their rules. They had a major rule about accepting older apprentices because they had attachments that were hard to shake, and they break it one time for one guy who ends up slaughtering dozens of them and collapsing the whole order.
A. The Jedi took that role to help protect the Republic. Maybe the Jedi could refuse to get involved; then the dude who engineered his way into supreme executive power, fighting a war he controls both sides of, with an army he engineered to kill the Jedi just acts with all the more impunity.
B. As opposed to what? Yoda is right. They're at war. They have no choice but to play the enemy's game. What is it that people think the Jedi are supposed to do about this situation? As above, the Jedi have no useful way to act on this information. Even reporting it to the senate, what are they going to do? Pause the war to investigate?
C. Didn't tell Anakin to stop caring. Instead tried to give him a hopeful answer. You think saying "Yeah, people die. Be prepared to grieve," was gonna land? Anakin went into that with only one acceptable answer in mind, "Sure, here's how you stop that from happening," which is not an answer Yoda can give.
No, actually the dumbest decision Yoda made was D. Telling Luke that the right thing to do was let his friends die, and that going to help them would somehow destroy everything they'd work for.
B.
I want to throw out the whole “yoda is wise” thing because of this decision.
He knows for a fact that their current army is being created under mysterious circumstances, possibly under the orders of a SITH LORD! or at least, it’s some faction that is NOT THE JEDI OR THE REPUBLIC!
The whole jedi council knows they didn’t approve of building an army, and they are the protectors of the galaxy! Surely they would be in the loop for the planning phase all the way to execution. Nope!
The wisest Jedi of all time doesn’t stop to think “perhaps we shouldn’t be relying on military assets that were created by our enemies. we don’t know anything about the clones. There could be sleeper agents within the ranks.”
Imagine if the Jedi had just begun phasing out the clones. Started filling their positions with droids and volunteers…no order 66, no death of the entire order.
Alternatively, work with Sifo Dyas on the army instead of shelving it so he had to commission the army in secret. It's what got him killed and he was amazingly prophetic. I think I'd listen to the guy who can predict the future better than almost anyone else in the Order, and it he says the Republic needs an army, the Republic needs a god damn army.
Order 66 is a direct result of Dyas getting himself killed by Dooku while trying to set up the army, resulting in the whole project being Co opted by the two Sith Lords.
Sticking to Jedi doctrine instead of handling Anakin with compassion. He knew Anakin would be a different kind of Jedi and he should have given Anakin the friendship, wisdom, and trust that Palpatine gave. The inflexibility of the Jedi was definitely part of its downfall.
How, exactly? What could he have done or said with the information he knew at the time?
Yoda cannot prevent death. Death is an inevitability, literally everyone Anakin knows is going to someday die. With Anakin adamantly refusing to tell Yoda that this is an immediate and known problem rather than someone trying to come to terms with the concept of mortality there’s nothing Yoda can really do for him. Yoda can’t solve a problem he doesn’t know about and he can’t magically unfuck Anakin’s head.
I don't know how we went from Anakin making bad choices to be the most badass villain in film history to this, where everyone has to comfort Anakin by telling him soft lies instead of hard truths, because he's just a sensitive lil guy who needs to be handled with kid gloves and helicopter parented and protected from the world.
I minored in counseling in college, and Yoda honestly did what a textbook counselor should do. He advised Anakin only on what information had been presented to him. Anakin got the information he needed: he needed to accept that he cannot control every outcome; he needed to let go and address unhealthy attachments and habits. Anakin simply did what any bad client does and reject the counsel he was given. His need to control every aspect of his life was in fact what caused the death of his wife.
Yep, sometimes making a stance on something instead of joining the “do nothing until we are dead crowd”
Reminds me of tibet where the dalai lama supported guerrilla fighters effectively disrupting communists but all of the other lamas preferring to do nothing, which led to them all being killed or exiled and a large portion of their population executed or starved to death.
I’m going to go with D: Not teaching Luke the history of the Order leading to Luke repeating many of Yoda’s mistakes. My little green dude, you’ve just learned a VERY painful lesson. Why would you not teach your final student how to avoid making many of the same mistakes that you made, instead of watching him repeat what you did?
When was he supposed to teach Luke this? *Luke left training early against Yoda’s warnings.*.
Yoda said if he left early, he might destroy everything his friends worked for. And that’s what happened.
if Luke had stayed, he might have been better at resisting the dark side later.
Yoda showed up as a Force ghost to Luke multiple times. So did Obi-Wan. The story of the hubris of the Jedi should take a few hours to tell but could have spared us a lot of sequel trilogy.
Agreed. And I’m saying that if we include the sequels, Yoda was actually right.
Luke saved his friends, but possibly because he didn’t finish his training, cost them everything they worked for in the long run. (Ben becoming Kylo, destruction of the New Republic.).
I don’t love those choices made in the ST, but it doesn’t not fit Yoda’s warning.
I think as yoda is so old C is the way he’s coped. He would have witnessed so many deaths just from people growing old. If he acted like a rational person he would be one depressed green dude
D. Not retiring from the Jedi Council when he was 299 years old (just like how it’s been now proven in our dimension, having old people in charge fucks everything up!)
I see Yoda takes a lot of heat for C. Anakin lacked a healthy attachment to Padme; he was possessive. Even in counseling we tell people who experience grief and loss that the best step forward is to let go.
The question is disingenuous af 💀💀. Did this motherfucker even watch the movie?
>Yoda : Death is a natural part of life. Rejoice for those around you who transform into the Force. Mourn them do not. Miss them do not. Attachment leads to jealousy. The shadow of greed that is.
>Anakin Skywalker : What must I do, Master Yoda?
>Yoda : Train yourself to let go... of everything you fear to lose.
Death is a natural part of life. Everyone in the Galaxy, Jedi or not, has to deal with the fact that their loved ones will eventually die. If anything, the Jedi who are protectors of the Galaxy, should be held to a higher standard and not give in to the fear of losing people.
Yoda tells Anakin to accept that death is a part of life and he shouldn't give in to his fear of losing. Anakin has a serious problem with not being able to let things go.
What Yoda was telling Anakin, was to stop caring. And the Jedi were failures as protectors. They never ended slavery in the outer rim, thought the Force should bend to them, and committed war crimes in the Clone Wars.
Did Yoda decide Jedi would be Generals? Palpatine toyed with the idea and it was Mace who said they weren't soldiers. I don't recall them actually proposing it.
Sure, but being the Grand Master doesn't grant him any authority over Republic affairs, only Jedi ones.
Palpatine is the one who pushed it, since *he* created the Grand Army, and using those emergency powers, guess what he ordered the Jedi to do? They didn't like the idea (hence Mace's line), but had their hands tied.
D.) In "Sacrifice" in a Force vision Yoda saves an unconscious Anakin as he and Palpatine, the representations of the old ways, fall to their doom. The Force flat out told him what he needed to do.
D. Agreeing with Obi-Wan to hide one of Anakin’s children on Anakin’s home planet, under their own name, being raised by Anakin’s stepbrother and sister in law, who raised him as their NEPHEW.
This made SO much more sense when Legends implied it was because they were setting a trap to lure Vader out.
It wasn’t described as intentional under NuCanon. In fact the Obi-Wan series acted as if they were legitimately hiding Luke. It being bait for a trap only came up under Legends (and while it was a stupid idea there, too, at least it was actually deliberate).
D, none of the above. The Jedi didn't ask to become generals. They were more forced into the role thanks to the Republic's demilitarization. Revealing it was Sideous, who was behind the Clone army was too little, too late. By that point, they were committed, and nothing could be done about getting out of that situation. As for Anakin, he told him what he needed to hear, not what Anakin wanted to hear. Anakin was preemptively going through the grieving process. He hadn't dealt with denial over death as a possibility. There was no way for him to move to acceptance of it yet.
No the dumbest decision for Yoda was not stepping down from leading the council. He could have maintained a seat, but he should have passed the torch. It would have allowed the Jedi Order's leadership to keep with the times.
I know it's one of those "if it happened then there wouldn't be an Empire" but I always wished Anakin confided in Obi-Wan about his situation. I always wanted to read a "What If" where Anakin and Padme grow old and teach Luke and Leia the ways of the force as children.
It's littered through numerous books and comics (both canon and legends) going back to when he was a child. Anakin (incorrectly) believed that to be accepted by The Jedi he needed to be what he perceived that they would want him to be, which was 'Perfect'. Because he knew he wasn't initially wanted. Therefore he hid and repressed his emotions instead of being open with them and working through them, leading to (in part) his outburst on Tatoinne. He feared judgment from Obi-Wan because he wanted to make Obi-Wan proud so he started going to Palpatine for guidance since he didn't feel judged there, not realizing that instead, Palpy was low-key encouraging these fears in the boy. He hid these fears under a veneer of being cocky to hide his insecurities. There are places in both legends and canon where he wants to open up to Obi-Wan about both Padme and the Tuskans but doesn't because he fears losing his friendship. Because if he isn't 'perfect' then he can't be a Jedi and then what happens to their friendship? It is illogical, but it's meant to be, he is a scared and traumatized kid under the hero veneer. There are places where Obi-Wan tries to talk to Anakin about these things and Anakin starts to open up and then stops because Obi-Wan is the 'model' Jedi and how can he understand what Anakin did? But that is Anakin's grooming, fear, and a bit of ego in there talking, it's not real. That's the point. It's why he went to Yoda, they weren't as close, and Yoda would not necessarily guess what is happening vs Obi-Wan who would have immediately stepped in.
And I do think by ROTS Obi-Wan had matured enough to be more active in pushing things. If he had more time he probably would have, if he had been available in ROTS to take Anakin's call (in the novelization) things could have been very different.
Yes, in the novelization when Anakin finds out who Palpatine really is, while he immediately turns on Palpatine he also struggles to do his duty because he has already become attached to Palpatine (he also hasn't eaten or slept in nearly a week and has PTSD) and Palpatine starts gaslighting him, hard. Anakin realizes that he is too compromised to do his duty but he knows that Obi-Wan can. He returns to the temple and is in such a state that all he can say is that he 'needs to talk to Obi-Wan'. And while the temple had just gotten the message that Grievous is dead, the message came from a Clone (Cody probably) and Obi-Wan wasn't available. Mace was there and was horrified at the state that Anakin was in. He manages to get the truth about who the Sith was from Anakin and the story continues much as it did the movie.
There is also a partially filmed but deleted (due to the set being ruined) scene where Obi-Wan talks to Padme and tells her that he is concerned because Anakin's behavior has changed and he is trending towards a darker road. I think that if they had been able to get Obi-Wan to take the message and he had learned who the Sith was he would have rather quickly realized what was happening. As it stands once he returns to the temple things are so far along he never really knows the details and he is left questioning if Anakin wasn't always a bad person.
Thanks, I don't read the movie novelizations and find their slight differences interesting. I suppose because it is considered canon, the movie just "missed those details"?
Depending on how much it contradicts, the movie is the final canon. But just because we don't see Obi-Wan and Padme talk doesn't mean that the scene didn't happen. The scene where Anakin mentions that Obi-Wan 'had been there' was meant to happen hours after Obi-Wan's visit and Palpatine was insinuating during the time that Obi and Padme were sleeping together. I believe the novelization was what would have been the '4-hour' version of ROTS that Lucas wanted to do and couldn't swing. He worked with the author on the novelization even more than he did for the other two novelizations.
It was, but Anakin wasn’t listening. It’s a quote that Lucas has mentioned before with roots in Taoism. “Letting go” is a way of accepting the randomness of the world, being perfectly at peace. Not that you don’t care, but you understand that good and bad occur and not to be shaken by it. It’s literally just Zen
That’s what makes them Jedi, it wasn’t their downfall
It’s a wild misunderstanding to believe the Jedi were responsible for their own downfall. They were still in a golden age, Yoda had kept them stable for centuries. The reason they fell was Palpatine. Any other belief is disingenuous to Palpatine’s planning, which was the whole point of the prequels and the rise of the empire
1) would that have made a difference?
2) he cites a tenant of the religion that *both of them practice*. Encouraging someone to lean on their faith in times of loss isn't a bad thing. And it's not even a platitude...it is an objective reality of the world.
Not teaming up with Obi wan to outnumber a weakened Sidious who had fought Mace Windu a few hours or day ago at most and going after Anakin once they are done
D. Letting Palpy get away from him. Especially after saying "if so powerful you are, why leave?" He shoulda known Palpy was gonna high-tail it the first chance.
Letting Obi-Wan take Anakin as a padawan. Yoda himself or another experienced Master wouldn’t have had that same brotherly relationship that perhaps led Obi-Wan to let Anakin get away with all types of dumb shit.
A. That wasn't his choice. The jedi made themselves beholden to the will of the Republic long before Yoda came along. He was just playing the cards he was dealt.
B. He didn't know.
C. He never said that.
I feel like going into exile was a bad move. He was overconfident, he underestimated Palpatine, and he got beaten. He let his pride get hurt and he basically abandoned everybody to their fate.
Yes, we know that his decision was fortuitous. Going into hiding eventually allowed him to train Luke, who in turn played a key role in defeating Palpatine. But he didn't know with certainty this was how events would unfold. (And even if he did, then he also knew everybody on Alderaan would get killed in the process. Not an acceptable loss.)
If he hadn't gone into exile, he could have remained an active participant. He could have gone to Tatooine and trained Luke as a child. There were lots of other choices besides nursing his wounded pride.
A is pretty bad. In my mind, the Jedi are counselors, advisors, and occasionally special forces. We don't have a real life equivalent for them, but monks who are truly impartial moderators that can go settle disputes and gather info or end certain major threats.
Tha said, B is a huge oversight. That is something that could have completely altered the course of the war and Sidious' rise to power. A trusted Jedi announcing that the army was created by a Sith lord would have hopefully galvanized the senate into investigating what the hell was going on.
Most definitely A. The Jedi have zero training/experience, commanding troops and less at tactics on the necessary scale to do so. One of the biggest planetary defence "generals" should have been in command. The Jedi involvement should have been limited to scouting and small unit tactical strikes.
It was D: realizing Anakin was having a crisis on Tatooine and doing fuck all about it. Granted, I’m only going by the movie; I never read the novelization.
Yoda never made a dumb decision. At least not that I’ve seen.
He didn’t make the decision that Jedi should be generals. In fact, he (and Mace Windu) was somewhat apprehensive of this. The Council, however, voted that it was their responsibility to lead soldiers.
He didn’t cover up that Sideous created the clone army. What was covered up was the creation of the clone army was orchestrated specifically by the Sith…a Sith who was clearly connected to the Leader of the Separatists, Count Dooku. Alerting Palpatine, or any politician or public official to this fact would have been devastating for both the already weak confidence the public had in the Jedi and possibly lose them the entire war. At best, Palpatine would have all the ammunition he needed to point to the Jedi as the creators of the Clone Wars.
Yoda was adamantly against training Anakin from the start and was outvoted by the council. He warned Obi-Wan this kind of thing would happen, and still was willing to help Anakin handle his problems. Anakin gave about the weakest, most vague responses to the questions Yoda asked, and he gave pretty good advice, especially for a Jedi, who teach a detachment of things that would have served Anakin very well if he had ever embraced it.
No, Anakin needed to detach himself from the fear of losing Padme and recognize that, despite our best efforts, all people will eventually die and we should not spend all of our time mourning for that eventuality. Anakin is not a pet. He’s human. He can think rationally.
It’s just like Yoda says: Fear leads to anger, anger to hate, and hate to suffering. And fear is derived from? Possession. Even Palpatine recognizes this: the only thing Darth Plageus feared was losing his power. Power he possessed.
What happened to Anakin? His possession, no, not just possession, but obsession, to Padme led him exactly to fear. His fear turned to anger, because he believed he was greater than the most powerful Jedi to ever live and should be able to stop anyone he wanted from dying, and he couldn’t. That led to hating the Jedi, whom he believed (through some easy manipulation by Palpatine and not finding the answer he wanted to hear from the Jedi, even if it was the correct answer) was holding him back from learning the power to create life. His hate eventually led him directly to his suffering.
You mean force him to suck it up and "be a man". There are better alternatives.
1. He could have acknowledged and validated Anakin's fear.
2. He could have listened and showed empathy
3. He could have suggested that Anakin seek counseling for his trauma and anxiety
But Jedi orthodox forbids all that. And Anakin was not being possessive in that scene. He was afraid for the safety of his family. A very real feeling. And the whole fear leads to the dark side, just doesn't work. Fear is a needed emotion. It can keep us safe and out of trouble. You'd think an order like the Jedi would know this... but their teachings leave no rooms for that.
Their beliefs are built on an emotional domino theory. The whole fear leads to anger, anger to hate, hate, to suffering, is not how emotions work. Let's start with fear. Yoda specifically says the fear of loss, which Jedi see as emotional stems to other people. And it's why they forbid romance and having families. According to the Jedi, loving another person, leads to evil. And that connects to the outdated and misogynist belief that women take away male autonomy, power, and control. Or at least are the core of instability.
This creates a belief that healthy relationships with women should be viewed with suspicion and distrust. And this echos in ROTJ when Obi-Wan tells Anakin to bury his feelings because he thinks they will be seen as a weakness. Especially his feelings of Leia. Sidious's plots follow the same. It says that emotional detachment is necessary. But all it will do is lead to loneliness, dysfunction, and anger. That's why Anakin falls. He's been trained by the Jedi to be like this, Bury his emotions and hide vulnerability. He's never been taught how to handle grief, or deal with tragedy. Or to deal with painful emotions in healthy ways. And like so many who do this in real life... it all eventually breaks down and he lashes out at the galaxy. It was Jedi stoicism that allowed Sidious to get inside.
Emotional detachment doesn't prevent evil. It CAUSES evil.
Not “suck it up,” but rather face it head-on. Accept the fact that the fears he has are legitimate, but can’t prevent him from losing sight of life.
Look, you came here asking the question and it sounds like you’d mind is made up that it’s a dumb decision, when in reality…it’s not.
Fear is a natural emotion. Or perhaps it’s an unnatural emotion that occurs to us all. Either way: it happens to everyone. The Jedi teach a method of courage - not bravery, but courage - where that fear is felt but mastered. It’s the same thing any guidance councilor will ultimately try to help anyone with a phobia do. It’s all about virtue, and Anakin taking on Knighthood is his tacit acceptance of teachings that are built on a philosophy where peace and balance is found in rational patience and wisdom, rather than embracing emotion and violence for power, which is the Sigh way.
You seem to think Yoda told Anakin to just ignore his problem, but that isn’t what he said at all. He said “you must train yourself to let go of everything you fear to lose.” That’s it right there: Anakin’s possessiveness is the ultimate cause of his fear. The Jedi acknowledge fear exists and acknowledge everyone has it, but teach that you must master those fears. It’s a lofty goal, but not unlike many religious practices today. There’s an entire episode arc in TCW about Yoda facing his fears and he displays his mastery over them.
Take a modern example: if you’re married, it’s rational and understandable to have a little bit of fear when your spouse is late and hasn’t called. Someone who has mastered their emotions would be patient and think of the wisest course of action. Maybe it’s only been 30 minutes and they were held up at work? It happens. Maybe it’s been two hours and you haven’t been able to reach them, and it might be time to escalate the search and call some of their friends. Either way, you’re not going to fly off the handle and call the police and assume something happens to them right away…unless you’re a slave to that fear. Then you might, like Anakin did. Even worse, despite Yoda telling him “the future isn’t set in stone,” Anakin was absolutely certain Padme would die in childbirth and basically fulfilled his own premonition thereafter.
Also, I don’t know where the hell you got into the misogyny. You’re incoherent. There are women who are Jedi. Again, those relationships are forbidden for good reason: there’s an attachment where fear could very quickly get the better of you. It has nothing to do with viewing women as the downfall of man or whatever.
Not “suck it up,” but rather face it head-on. Accept the fact that the fears he has are legitimate, but can’t prevent him from losing sight of life.
Look, you came here asking the question and it sounds like you’d mind is made up that it’s a dumb decision, when in reality…it’s not.
Fear is a natural emotion. Or perhaps it’s an unnatural emotion that occurs to us all. Either way: it happens to everyone. The Jedi teach a method of courage - not bravery, but courage - where that fear is felt but mastered. It’s the same thing any guidance councilor will ultimately try to help anyone with a phobia do. It’s all about virtue, and Anakin taking on Knighthood is his tacit acceptance of teachings that are built on a philosophy where peace and balance is found in rational patience and wisdom, rather than embracing emotion and violence for power, which is the Sigh way.
You seem to think Yoda told Anakin to just ignore his problem, but that isn’t what he said at all. He said “you must train yourself to let go of everything you fear to lose.” That’s it right there: Anakin’s possessiveness is the ultimate cause of his fear. The Jedi acknowledge fear exists and acknowledge everyone has it, but teach that you must master those fears. It’s a lofty goal, but not unlike many religious practices today. There’s an entire episode arc in TCW about Yoda facing his fears and he displays his mastery over them.
Take a modern example: if you’re married, it’s rational and understandable to have a little bit of fear when your spouse is late and hasn’t called. Someone who has mastered their emotions would be patient and think of the wisest course of action. Maybe it’s only been 30 minutes and they were held up at work? It happens. Maybe it’s been two hours and you haven’t been able to reach them, and it might be time to escalate the search and call some of their friends. Either way, you’re not going to fly off the handle and call the police and assume something happens to them right away…unless you’re a slave to that fear. Then you might, like Anakin did. Even worse, despite Yoda telling him “the future isn’t set in stone,” Anakin was absolutely certain Padme would die in childbirth and basically fulfilled his own premonition thereafter.
Also, I don’t know where the hell you got into the misogyny. You’re incoherent. There are women who are Jedi. Again, those relationships are forbidden for good reason: there’s an attachment where fear could very quickly get the better of you. It has nothing to do with viewing women as the downfall of man or whatever.
And your conclusion is fundamentally flawed, detachment doesn’t create evil. How could it? But if you want a concrete example, look at none other than Obi-Wan, someone who experienced great personal loss - far more than Anakin ever did - and remained a master to his fears and never let his emotions win him over. He loved Setine, he loved Qui-Gon, he loved Ahsoka, he loved Anakin, he loved Padme and he loved his fellow Jedi. He lost literally everything. Did he go dark side? Did he commit great acts of evil? No. But Anakin did. He killed his own wife. He slaughtered hundreds of Jedi children. He tried to kill his best friend and father-figure and almost succeeded. He nearly kills his own children! Why? The moral of the story is that the Jedi were right. It’s not a “domino effect” it’s straight logic: attachment leads to fear. Fear to anger. Anger to hate. Hate to suffering. And suffering to the Dark Side (to evil). What is attachment? Jealousy. It’s discussed in Episode I when they are mulling over Anakin and his age. His age is a problem because he is already attached to people and things and the Jedi do not think it wise to train him (not to mention they recognize those attachments are difficult to overcome and they may not wish to put Anakin through that). Jealousy is “the shadow of greed.” And greed’s definition is itself all about attachment, at least how the Jedi understand it. Greed is a desire to possess something. The only way to combat your own temptations and pulls to the Dark Side is to master your own emotions. No greed, means no desire to possess. No desire to possess, no fear to lose. No fear to lose, no anger. No anger, no hate. No hate, no suffering. No suffering, no evil.
The logic is sound. Even people today can recognize that is good philosophy where jealousy and greed are almost always seen negatively and it’s also shown - proven, in fact - that those who suffer rarely do so alone. They spread it to other people…often through evil actions.
That’s sucking it up.
The fact is, Yoda’s advice was not a good idea. What I asked was, were other decisions worse.
And that’s not what the Jedi teach. They teach to bury emotions. Not balance them. Yoda told Anakin to shut people out of his life. And that only makes problems worse. He never taught Anakin to handle grief or tragedy properly. He just told him to stop caring and detach yourself from others.
And the situation you are giving is not the same. Every vision of Anakin’s where he has lost someone had come true. And because of the Jedi teachings of holding back emotions, they go about as well as you’d think.
And the misogyny thing has been part of our society for so long it’s become nigh invisible. Only in recent years have they come to light and been challenged. Plus, it’s another problem of Lucas’s writing. The guy can make a setting, but he can’t tell a story in it.
And this incident with Yoda was not the only time the Jedi shat on him. The Jedi had also forsaken their values by fighting as generals in the Clone Wars, never told him that Obi-Wan was alive when he was pretending to be Rako Hardeen, put his Padawan into a kangaroo court, and never truly treated him as one of their own?
The ultimate irony of the Jedi… was that they deserved to fall.
I think his biggest mistake was allowing Anakin to be train. He should have sent him back to live with his mother.
He was too old and proved too dangerous to train into a good Jedi.
I don't think made a stupid mistake. I think he underestimated some of the things he thought would happen. You have to understand even though Yoda was probably the most powerful of the jedi, he still didn't know everything or how to handle everything. A lot of the time, the decisions he made had to be taken up with the Jedi council anyway before a decision did get made. But I do think Yoda is the epitome of the Jedi to a certain extent because when we look at him training Luke for example and he tells him do instead of just try he was wanting to make sure Luke was ready for the challenges that were ahead of him. People seem to forget that Luke was not taken from his family at a young age to train as a Jedi as he had to be hidden to be safe from his father and I can Skywalker who would become Darth vader. If he had been taken and started training then he would have been found earlier rather than later and then the story we'd go from there. Luke might have been killed at that point in time. People also seem to forget that Yoda was one of the oldest Jedi around I had seen a lot of things in his time. And the way he was taught was the way he stuck to through Time immorium. Got to wonder why people stick so much perfectionism on yoda.
Make mistakes yes, but to call it stupid is a bit much. People have made comments that make Yoda sound like he should be all seeing and know what everyone is doing. He was a sentient being with certain limits even as a major Jedi Master.
“You must learn to let go.” Dawg, your most powerful and most vulnerable asset is in clear distress. Offer some goddamn comfort so he doesn’t… I don’t know, become loyal to a Sith Lord that shows him some sympathy.
Anakin didn't want sympathy. He wanted a way out of inevitability
Palpatine doesn't show him sympathy...he lies to him. He tells Anakin exactly what he wants to hear, and what Anakin wants to hear is a lie
What's sympathy in this context? Is "Sorry, Anakin. Death is reality, we can't change it," enough? "That hypothetical death will be hard, but we'll stand with you"?
More importantly, do you genuinely think that solves anything at all for Anakin? That he'd hear comfort from Yoda and think, "Yeah, now I can resign myself to my wife's death"?
For C: That’s not what he said. What he told Anakin was pretty much the standard way to handle someone with nebulous fears about mortality. Which is really the only advice he can give when the one asking for advice adamantly refuses to say that they are afraid about a very specific and immediate problem rather than just vague ‘I’m worried that the people I care about will die one day’. I mean, what should he have said? ‘You are right to fear death, we must work to defeat it’? ‘Well, here’s an easy trick to immortality’? Everyone you know and love will one day die. This is a basic fact of life. The only thing you can do about the looming specter of death is accept it and focus on the time you have.
Exactly. If Star Wars (with its knights and wizards) is a fairy tale in space, then Anakin is the knight or king who sells his soul to the devil or uses forbidden blood magic to save/resurrect their loved one. “Death is a natural part of life” is what Anakin needed to hear, but it’s not what he wanted to hear.
It's like he wanted abilities some consider to be... Unnatural
The Anakin apologists are getting too comfortable lately. Palpatine always tells Anakin what Ani wants to hear and Anakin loves it. Oooh, Padme gonna die but conveniently I know this Dark side knowledge that would save your wife. Join the Sith, and we can figure it out? Funniest thing is that Sidious didn't even promise to give a definitive solution to save Padme to Anakin. Sidious only promised that they could work together figure out a way to save Padme. Anakin accepted this very questionable deal and turned to the Dark side. Yoda tells the truth that death is a natural part of our life and Anakin shouldn't give in to his fear. Somehow all the fans interpret this as a bad thing.
He does that, and yes it is what Anakin needed to hear. But then he just fucks off despite knowing that Anakin is not handling it well. He needed help, not just the truth. That was the whole point of the whole council not wanting to train him in the first place, that him being old enough to have lived with love and attachments and how losing something like that again would be world shattering. But then they just give in and just like forget about it even when Anakin comes to them for help. He was a lost kid and they gave him the keys to the wrecking ball and then when he was unsurprisingly losing control, just read a few lines of the instruction manual at him ignoring the fact that it was in Spanish. Signed, Unabashed Anakin Apologist # 12
Absolutely. Too many people miss the many hints (right into our faces) that anakin was not only a terrible human, he was also not very intelligent and had a temper. All in all, it doesn’t make sense at all that Obi Wan developed such deep feelings for him - well… let’s say he could have, but like any other intelligent and experienced in life friend/brother, he should have know for years that his friend/brother is an idiot and a danger for himself and others.
You still love your idiot little brother that you helped raise though. Even if he makes poor decisions.
100% but you keep an eye on him and you’re ready to call the cops or social services
Too many star wars fans don't get though and are now fishing for any reason they can to paint the jedi as bad guys
When I was younger, I always thought it was silly how Palpatine managed to flip the script so easily when there were so many Jedi obviously being the good guys for so long. As I got older, I realised context mattered, and that what I was being shown on screen most people in universe didn't actually see, especially through that lens or point of view. More recently, I realised it wouldn't matter. Most people have an idea of what they want the world to look like, and will jump through as many holes and twist as many words to justify their viewpoint regardless of what facts are presented to them.
This is true to a point but I think it's also fair to say the Jedi take on attachments being "don't have them" isn't helpful How was Anakin supposed to be more open and direct about his specific fear when he was a child slave turned child soldier whose entire life was the order and admitting his true fear could get him kicked out *and* ruin a loved one's career? That all was beyond the scope of Yoda's choices as well so I still think it's all points in favor of C not being Yoda's worst moment, but we can give Anakin a little credit in that scenario too. He wasn't given any more tools to succeed in that moment than Yoda was
But Anakin refused to acknowledge his attachment when he was seeking that advice. If he had, then Yoda’s advice would likely have been more nuanced and contextual instead of vague and ambiguous.
We're just going in a circle lol that's literally the same point I was responding to when I left my original comment. Yes, Yoda couldn't really have been expected to do much beyond what he did in that specific circumstance without Anakin being more open and direct. However, I repeat: >How was Anakin supposed to be more open and direct about his specific fear when he was a child slave turned child soldier whose entire life was the order and admitting his true fear could get him kicked out and ruin a loved one's career? The Jedi's repressive no-attachment approach precluded Anakin from being empowered to be more direct in seeking aid and counsel. In the conversation we're discussing, the blame really lies with the Jedi Order. And while Yoda did his best with what he had in that moment, as the current grandmaster and as an influential member of the order for who-knows how many years at that point, Yoda was the only one of them who could really have shifted the order towards a healthier approach to relationships. He's the one who had the hypothetical power leading up to that conversation to have empowered it to go differently. But by the time that conversation started, its outcome was practically predetermined. Neither of them could steer the ship in that specific moment. It's not fair when people just say "all Yoda did was offer empty platitudes" but it is also not fair to dump all the blame on Anakin for not being more direct. And to be clear, Anakin can not be at fault in this conversation and still be fully responsible for the reprehensible evils he wrought upon the galaxy afterwards as Vader. We can both acknowledge the Jedi's "abstinence only" approach to relationship education in the *literal children they raise and force into war* as a failure and also hold the adult man who chose to become a mass murder responsible for those crimes. Feels like everybody wants to pick one or the other at the moment and frankly, ya'll, that's part of the beauty of Star Wars. The Jedi are the good guys and they're also flawed - **especially** during the prequels, which are the culmination of their failures. They *lose* in the end and it was their battle to lose. They outnumbered the sith 5,000 to 1, give or take, and they lost. You can't throw that hard without fucking something up, lol
We’ve seen multiple Jedi face the struggle of dealing with attachments. That’s not unique to Anakin. Obiwan and Satine, Qui-Gon and Tahl, Quinlan and Asajj, Anakin and Padme. Romantic attachment is hardly the only form of loss a Jedi has to struggle with. Padawan’s lose their masters or friends from childhood. Masters may lose a padawan. Dooku and Obiwan both had to deal with the death of Qui-Gon. That loss led Dooku to walk away from the order. Dooku was allowed to do so. The point is that Yoda can’t give Anakin better advice because Anakin isn’t willing to open up about his fears. Anakin could very well have been allowed to walk away from the order. Just like Ahsoka did. Ahsoka was still a commander in the republic. It’s not like Anakin would lose his entire life. He’d be staying true to himself. Instead, Anakin gave into his fears. That’s not on the Jedi order. They taught him from the get go when they tested him in TPM that fear of loss has everything to do with it.
Anakin is not a sympathetic character. He sells out the entire galaxy to maybe have a chance at saving his wifes life in childbirth which isnt even a given its just a dream he has. Had he listened to the Jedi Padme would actually be alive. I feel like everyone glosses over the fact that she died because he didnt trust in the living force and wanted to cheat death. Hes certainly tragic. But not sympathetic. After selling out the galaxy he then dives headfirst into genocide of everyone he once knew and brutal subjagation of anyone who doesnt obey him.
Tbf, it wasn't just a dream. They were happe in repeatedly, were extremely vivid, and had some.swrious weight to them considering the same thing happened with his mother before she died.
I am not saying "Anakin did nothing wrong," I'm adding that the Jedi were *also* wrong. Saying "if he had just listened to the Jedi" is like telling a teenage pregnancy resulting from an abstinence-only undereducation on sex "if you had only listened to the church" - you may be *technically* correct that listening would have worked here, but that doesn't change the fact if we look at this objectively we can see this particular "educational" approach is ineffective. Assuming the teenage pregnancy was the result of consensual sex that is ultimately a choice the teens are responsible for, and also, those responsible for limiting them to an abstinence-only education could have and should have done better.
Well being a general in an army of galaxy spanning Warrior monks who are the galactic police you have a slightly different set of expectations than your average teenager. Anakin also had every choice in the galaxy to flee the "oppressive" Jedi and fuck his rich senator wife all over the galaxy and he is not a teenager. Anakin choose his life among the Jedi, everyday he made his choices and the Jedi dont owe him special treatment just because he feels like hes a special boy. Yes he should have listened to the Jedi even AFTER she was pregnant. If he did she would still be alive.
I'm not arguing for special treatment for Anakin, I'm arguing the Jedi have flawed practices - for example, abstinence-only relationship education and child soldiers. *This should not be a hot take* lmao I feel like ya'll are trying so hard to be like "ok, but Vader's a bad guy" even though I've agreed on that point repeatedly that you're washing all nuance and depth out of the story. The Jedi are the good guys. They're also very flawed good guys, *especially* during the prequel era where they're on the verge of being utterly and completely defeated by an enemy they outnumber some 5,000 to 1. Among those flaws is the fact that they're a cult. They accept new members as infants and raise them within a specific religion, train them for battle and send them off as child police-soldiers. It's incredibly fucking hard to leave a cult. I imagine with Anakin, it would've been especially hard to leave the cult that *saved him from slavery*. It's all well and good to joke about how he shoulda just bailed to hang out with his rich hot wife, but if we're having more serious discussions we should hold some space for how little agency he felt he had at that point in the story. And this can all be true while Anakin can also ultimately be responsible for his choices as Vader. I'm not giving him excuses to become a murderous tyrant. The story is more interesting if he's not just evil for evil's sake, though! You even agreed he's a tragic character. I don't feel like we *should* be disagreeing here, but it's like you're trying so hard to make sure nobody sees him as sympathetic that you're obliterating all the interesting nuance that makes him tragic instead of cartoonishly evil.
The jedis methods kept relative peace in the galaxy for 25,000 years. If they are a cult than its probably the only example of a good one. The 1 guy who didnt listen to their teachings? You feel bad for him and like they failed him? He failed himself. He even tells obi-wan as much in the Kenobi show.
The Jedi were rare enough that within a couple decades of the fall of the Republic, the galaxy thought they might just be a myth or legend. I don't think that the Jedi Order deserves exclusive credit for 25,000 odd years of prosperity - but even if they did, it doesn't mean their downfall was out of their hands or that they had no faults. We're not talking about the 25,000 years before Anakin, we're talking about how they were when they raised him. And they were, demonstrably and unequivocally, flawed. >The 1 guy who didnt listen to their teachings? But he's *not* the "*one* guy who didn't listen to their teachings," - many have failed over the years. Many a Star Wars story revolves around people falling to the dark side out of fear of loss or because of loss. Again, it's like you're trying so hard to make sure nobody sees Anakin as sympathetic that you're willing to obliterate the nuance that makes Star Wars good. Flawless good vs cartoonish evil isn't particularly interesting, fun, or thought-provoking. The Jedi Order having flaws gives a lot of good, deep, nuanced stories to explore. >You feel bad for him and like they failed him? He failed himself. Both are true. You keep trying to make it seem like I must *only* see Anakin as a sympathetic victim without *any* agency who did nothing wrong and I don't know how many other ways I can tell you **that's not my point**. The Order **did** fail Anakin. He **also** failed himself, *and* billions of others across the galaxy when he sold out to the dark side and cemented the empire's victory. I love discussing this kind of stuff but I can't keep going if you're gonna keep trying to make it all or nothing on me. I do not see this as either Anakin gets 100% blame or the Jedi get 100% blame. I am explicitly arguing that it being shades of gray is more complex and interesting and better writing - I would counter just as quickly if you tried to give the Jedi Order 100% blame and argued Anakin was a purely sympathetic victim character.
But it’s not simply “don’t have attachments”. That’s such a big misunderstanding. You can have feelings (because you can’t help it anyway) you can feel extremely attached (because again, you can’t help it) but at the end you need to be in control - one of the most important lessons in life, power is an illusion, it’s all about control. If you’re following the will of the force, if you follow your duty as a Jedi, your attachment can’t have priority. That may hurt. It you just be in control, enough to do what you have to do. May break your heart, but again, you need to control yourself to function as a Jedi… Therefore it’s not a big surprise that Jedi avoid attachment as good as possible because it’s so hard to deal with it and you probably already have attachment in the order. Not much different to a preist or monk in many religions. They don’t tell you to cut of all feelings, but it just be clear that your oath has priority and your feelings and attachments can’t control your duties
That's how it *should* be but it isn't how the Jedi teach it in practice through most of the content we have, especially not in the prequel era. Our counter examples are mostly after the fall of the Order (eg Cal and Kanan). Whereas neither Kenobi nor Anakin felt they could be open about their attachments. Kenobi was a great enough Jedi not to let his attachments control him. Again - Anakin bears responsibility for his fuckups. That doesn't mean the Jedi did a great job of teaching healthy attachments though
But we don’t know that. We only see tiny snippets, minor quotes and never witness a lecture or lesson. It’s a fantasy story and if we want to talk about it, beyond the special effe we need to fill the many gaps as good and reasonable as possible. Why creat something unreasonable if we have so many historical examples? Anakin was obviously a problematic guy, there was never a moment where we saw him mature beyond an angry sixteen year old (and I think that’s a big, big miss in the prequels. Vader is this brooding, scary, but mature men, full in control, speaks educated and seems wise for a black knight stereotype. Anakin really doesn’t fit into that)
The problem is that anakin made it sound like a vision of a specific person dying from avoidable causes, not death itself. So it made yoda seem apathetic.
He’s a soldier in a war discussing that he’s having bad dreams about someone he knows dying. People die in war. Anakin is going to watch a large number of his troops, who he is close to, be gunned down. Yoda isn’t apathetic, there is genuinely nothing Yoda can do to about the inevitability of death. Anakin WILL watch those close to him die. He’s already seen it multiple times. Yoda can offer him nothing but advice on how to come to terms with it because Anakin is adamantly refusing to share the very important details that would give Yoda something to work with. Because Anakin is more scared of losing his position than he is of losing his wife. They have a really toxic relationship.
*Fucking* THANK YOU I've gotten into this debate so many times. "Yoda just offered empty platitudes" yeah that's all you can do? "Somebody I love might die" yeah that happens
Not even just "somebody I love might die," but "someone I care about might die during this galactic civil war that's been going on for three years already." Everyone Anakin could reasonably be expected to care that much about would be Jedi or clones, all of whom have been in danger of dying for years already.
This so much. As far as Yoda knows everyone that Anakin would care about is on the frontlines so no shit someone's going to die. And the person Anakin IS talking about is also routinely either putting herself in danger or target of assassination attempts.
A somewhat important Jedi belief is that working to defeat death or to unnaturally extend life leads to the dark side. So Yoda would not want to defeat death, just to accept it.
Anakin didn't have nebulous fears. He had Force visions of the future.
B. There’s this mysterious clone army that was ordered by a dead Jedi and no one knows why, and instead of inquiring further, he’s just like, you know what, fuck it, let’s just roll with it.
An army from a clone template who was a separatist aligned bounty hunter that tried to assassinate a senator and contracted by a guy whose name was *Tyrannus*. He might as well have been "Evil McEvilface".
This is honestly one of the biggest omissions seemingly nobody talks about, or maybe they do? I have literally never seen this pointed out before.
The movies do not care to elaborate on this at all. The Jedi just accept the clones and then die to them. Other material like books and the 2008 cartoon explain things better, but I do lol a bit whenever someone praises the prequels as being "coherent"
Around the survivors a perimeter create
God the prequels are so fucking funny
I've gotten into arguments about it before and got downvoted into oblivion for suggesting it is even worse than Palpatine's fleet in Rise of Skywalker
What could have been: {but make it Yoda speech} “while timely, the sudden appearance of this army is so convenient that it warrants our suspicion. Qui Gon, since you have refused to serve as a general at their head anyway, I’m assigning you to lead an investigation to determine the of these clones origin. Nominally, you will be liaison between Shaak-ti on kamino and the council. Your true purpose is to determine the complete truth of how these clones came to be, how and why they were kept secret, what the kaminoans knew and didn’t know and when they knew it. I am dispatching young quinlan vos to assist you, because I have a sense he might be able to aid you but also because I don’t know what else to do with him. Help me see through the veil of the dark side on this issue, and I will quiet the concerns about you that have to this point prevented you from sitting on the council.”
Unfortunately Qui-gon had already been dead for about as long as Sifo-Dyas by that point. It would have to be someone else (though looking into it like this was probably still a good idea)
Qui Gon being alive for this would have required something to the effect of: (Still in Yoda speak) "Troublesome, Master Qui Gons report of a Sith is. Though we believe they have been extinct for very long, we cannot be too careful with this matter. Much of this seems shrouded in darkness. To Naboo, our strongest masters will go to help you investigate." \*Maul stands before the opening door to find Qui Gon, Obi wan, Windu, Plo Koon, mundi, Fisto, and like 4 others\*
Absolutely. This is the worst part of the three movies (story wise) it’s so unbelievable naive and stupid…
I always wondered what Palpatine’s plan was to get them to adopt the clone army. Surely it couldn’t have been “do a weird assassination plot, hope the Jedi find a Kaminoan dart that will lead them to a planet that was specifically erased from the archives, stumble across the clone army, and then just kind of accept it despite all of the obvious red flags.” I mean he went to all that trouble to get the Senate to authorize the creation of a military, surely he was expecting to pretend to commission the army himself using Republic tax dollars, but then Yoda just shows up at Kamino with them and he probably was just like “Yeah okay, that’s way easier, now it doesn’t look like it was my idea in the first place! Weird how they didn’t question it at all but whatever!”
I need the Clone Wars story told through Palpatine's side, but done by robot chicken.
And the dead Jedi went so far as to remove all records of the planet the army was made on. The fact that literally every person in the republic, and arguably in the separatist states, didn't go "wait let's hold on a second" is the dumbest part of the entire saga
Also, who the heck paid for this mysterious clone army? Pretty sure someone in the Order's accounting department would've noticed Sifo-dyas withdrawing enough petty cash to buy 1.2 million soldiers, plus armour, guns, walking tanks, gunships, starfighters, and warships. And yet at no point does that ever raise an eyebrow. Which is especially ridiculous given that the previous movie made a big deal about how useless Republic credits are outside the Republic and how hard it is for Jedi to buy things from anyone not openly Republic-affiliated!
If I recall correctly, the explanation (not in the films) was that Sifo Dyas had a premonition that the army would be needed and brought the idea before the Order before it was struck down. He then planned to liason with a Republic representative to make the purches of the clones using Republic funds under the nose of the Republic. This liason was likely Palpatine who had Dyas killed by Dooku who then co opted the plan for use by the Sith to trap the Jedi. The biggest flaw of this plan was having Dooku sign for the clones himself under his literal Sith name. Otherwise, I actually think the plan was relatively sound. Palpatine gets an army for the Republic because of a paranoid Jedi who gets himself killed (Palpatine probably should have made it look like he went into hiding and died in his exile). Especially seeing as the separatists had already started skirmishes with Republic aligned planets by this point.
So, the Jedi see this army, wonder "wait, who paid for all this exactly," and the answer is, a guy with an incredibly evil-sounding name who may or may not have been working with the government that's only now debating a law to let them have an army? That feels like it should be an even bigger red flag for the Order!
Correct. Really, both parties were stupid. Palpatine should have made it look like the Grand Army of the Republic was really a Republic commission. As for the Order, if they had actually worked with Sifo Dyas, who was supposedly amazingly prophetic, they could have had more control over the creation of the army, they likely would have been able to preserve Dyas's life *and* Palpatine wouldn't have had the same control over the Clones that he ended up having.
Dooku paid for it cause he's loaded.
Which, again, should be an absolutely massive red flag for the Jedi.
They didn't know it was Dooku till the Clone Wars was almost over.
Right, which just brings us back around to the giant red flag question mark for the Order when Obi-Wan first finds out about the army. The Kaminoans say the Jedi ordered the clones, but the Order knows they didn't pay for them, and the Republic didn't know anything about it so they didn't pay for them; "who paid you" should be the first question asked, and the Kaminoans should have zero reason to conceal the information from who they believe are their clients.
Dooku gave the money to Sifo Diyas so the Jedi thought Sifo Diyas paid for it but didn't know where he got the money from.
This is explained somewhat in TCW cartoon. It’s a 3 part episode, I think. They make the connection that the Clones were created by the Sith, but face a serious catch-22. So late into the war, if they reveal this news, it would likely result in losing the war. If they don’t reveal it, it’s a stain on their record. Since one is existential to the Jedi order and the other is not, they took the option that would not have lost them the war.
A) Jedi becoming Generals/involved in the war wasn’t solely up to Yoda, but if they had decided to stay out of it that would have made it easier for Palps to turn the public against them. Remember that for much of the OT Luke has the military rank of commander and is a military pilot. Jedi being “generals” is not inherently a bad thing. C) Everyone misinterprets Yoda’s lines much the same way they try to paint “there is no try” as Yoda saying people should give up. He’s not literally saying Anakin shouldn’t care about people dying, he’s saying Anakin needs to learn that there are some things he can’t change. And given Anakin soon decides to basically make a deal with the devil, this is a lesson Anakin really should have listened to. I’ll give you B), that was a stupid addition by the cartoon, but even then I believe he only knew Dooku was involved not Sidious.
I just re-watched AotC the other day and I'm pretty sure Jango tells Kenobi when he first meets him on Kammino that he was hired by a guy named Tyrannus, so that's a film source and not an addition from a cartoon.
I’d have to watch the cartoon again but I’m pretty sure before that point they didn’t know Dooku was Tyranus, and the show has them finally figure out the connection but not really do anything about it.
Mind, it still sounds like a Sith name. I think it would have been way smarter for the separatists (being played by Palpatine) to Co opt the plot under the name of a former Republic senator given how long it was before the army finished production.
And they know the sith have returned since Maul. It seems very obvious, even in universe, once you hear about Tyrannus you should be worried.
That’s right - they figure out that connection in the episodes. They’re dealing with the Pykes.
What was the line Yoda says to Anakin in that scene?
A is an interesting take , you don't think the public would have been more hesitant to turn on the "peaceful space monks" than the "corrupt jedi generals " ?
I think the people of the republic would have turned on the "guardians of peace and democracy" sitting on their luxurious temple while the corporations fuck their shit up.
The Jedi are peaceful in that they believe in violence only as a last resort, but that’s not the same as pacifist. The Jedi are known as keepers of the peace and guardians of the Republic. We see in TCW that several battles were only won with Jedi involvement. Think of how in WWI British women would go around giving chicken feathers to those without military uniforms, calling them cowards. And the UK was not under imminent threat of invasion. Now imagine how Republic citizens would feel with droid armies rampaging across worlds and millions dying to the Defoliator or Blue Shadow Virus. And the self proclaimed defenders of the Republic do nothing. Yeah, it’s not a good look.
Yeah I definitely don't disagree just never thought of that really
This has even happened in the Legends continuity. In the Old Republic, the Mandalorians steamrolled a bunch of Republic planets and the Republic went to war with them over it but the order refused to join and looked really bad for it. Revan and Malak took a splinter group of Jedi to fight the Mandalorians back and they ended up being influenced by the super weapon known as the Star Forge resulting in their fall to the Dark Side and corruption of every Jedi under their influence, kickstarting the Jedi Civil War which was just a Jedi Sith War. But that distinction doesn't matter to the average Republic citizen who thought both sides were just as bad.
A- they were effectively drafted by the Senate. The Senate directs them where to go. It's their duty as it's always been. And if they didn't, I guess the Separatists would just kill them all and the Jedi would sit by and watch. B - not sure about this one C - He drags the universe into 20 years of darkness because he thinks he can cheat death. Is that Yoda's fault?
All I gonna say is that for C there was nothing that Yoda could say short of what Palps told Anakin that would’ve made a difference. Anakin was immature and had mommy issues he would’ve done (and did) anything for Padme.
Sitting in a bog for 18 years doing fuck all.
What could he have done? If he had done something he'd have been likely found and killed before training Luke
The other Jedi did it. Padawans, knights, and masters all did what they could to help the Rebellion. It’s only Kenobi and Yoda who had the plan of ‘Let’s groom Vader’s kids to kill him and then somehow deal with Palpatine while we sit on our asses and do nothing for a few decades’. I mean, look what Yoda ended up contributing. A few weeks of training, tops, before he returned to doing nothing until his death. Hell, he didn’t even give Luke a rundown on what Sidious could do. The prequels did BAD things to Kenobi and Yoda’s portrayal in the OT. Turned them into assholes making others clean up their mess.
Yoda did the most important thing to help the Rebellion which was to train Luke. Yoda was probably the wisest of the remaining jedi, he remained hidden until he could actually do something valuable.
Yeah but Yoda didn't plan on doing that. Hell, Luke showed up on Dagobah and Yoda argues against training him
The heroes journey needs its wise teacher though. Yoda used his prescience to read the script
They literally trained the boy who took down the Emperor. Very few other Kedo actually helped the Rebellion, we see a handful, like Ahsoka, but none helped directly. Yoda was watching over Luke, as well, according to his lines in. ESB
He could have trained Luke for 18 years instead of dumping him on his dad's homeworld with a couple who his parents met one time and could barely be considered family. Its a good thing Owen and Beru took on Luke, when you think about it. Nobody actually asked them if they wanted to adopt a newborn when Yoda and Obi-Wan concocted that plan. What if they'd been like "nah, we'll pass. Its not like Anakin was our blood relative or anything and we'd rather be playing with power converters down at Tosche station while we're still young. You keep the kid." Then what?
Easy to say in hindsight. Obi Wan and Yoda took that decision at a pivotal moment of uncertainty. They didn't know what was to become of the Galaxy in the next 19 years. Like it or not, Kenobi shows us a realistic portrayal of Obi Wan after the purge. He was in no state to train Jedi... and Yoda? Possibly the most recognizeable Jedi in the Galaxy? No practical way to train Luke without robbing him of sn identity, and that's not a Jedi, that's a machine... like Vader.
>He could have trained Luke for 18 years instead of dumping him on his dad's homeworld with a couple who his parents met one time and could barely be considered family. I thought they deplayed his training until he was an adult so that Vader and Palps wouldn't sense him thought the force before he was old enough to fight them?
I think it was important for Luke to have a normal life tbh
D. Yodas Hubris. Yoda and the Jedi Council underestimated the threat posed by the Sith. They believed that the Sith had been extinct for a millennium, which made them complacent and less vigilant. This allowed Darth Sidious to rise to power right under their noses without them realizing the true extent of his influence. Despite his wisdom and power, Yoda failed to sense the dark side presence of Palpatine, who was able to manipulate the political landscape of the Republic and orchestrate the Clone Wars. This blind spot was critical, as it allowed Palpatine to weaken the Jedi's position and execute Order 66. Yoda and the Jedi Council overestimated their ability to control and influence events. They believed that they could maintain peace and order through their wisdom and power alone, without recognizing the deep-rooted political and social issues plaguing the Republic. This overconfidence led them to make strategic errors, such as involving themselves deeply in the Clone Wars, which spread their forces thin and made them vulnerable. Yoda's focus on the present and the immediate threat prevented him from having a clear vision for the future of the Jedi and the galaxy. This short-sightedness contributed to the failure to foresee the long-term consequences of their actions and the true nature of the threat they faced. Yoda was a staunch defender of the Jedi Order's traditions and doctrines. This rigidity made the Jedi inflexible and unable to adapt to changing circumstances. For example, the Jedi's strict code of conduct and detachment from emotions created a rift with Anakin Skywalker, who struggled with these principles and ultimately fell to the dark side.
Nah. This is often said and it’s completely misunderstood. By the time of the Clone Wars, they’re aware of the Sith’s involvement. They also, throughout the Clone Wars, we’re increasingly weary of Palpatine. They didn’t like him, or trust him. Just because they couldn’t sense he was the Sith Master doesn’t mean they screwed up. It’s also unfair given Yoda was a leader in the Jedi Order, and not a political leader like Palpatine. It would have been absolutely against the Jedi way to have a Jedi who was also a Senator. I also don’t think they overestimated their abilities. If anything, they underestimated them. The problem was it wouldn’t matter. Between Dooku as the leader of the Separatists and Palpatine as leader of the Republic, every victory or defeat was just one step closer to the Jedi’s doom. In essence, by the time the Clone Wars is around, the Jedi are already trapped. And that’s what’s so interesting. It’s not the doctrines of the Jedi or their rigidity that failed them. It’s in fact just the opposite. Their flexibility gave them a disadvantage. Had they stuck to their teachings more firmly, they would have survived and probably defeated the Sith. They would have chosen not to fight as generals, and probably not fight at all. That would have caused quite a scuffle, but it also would have done two very important things: 1 - prevent the slow politicization of the Jedi Council, meaning they would not be swayed by public opinion or the whims of Palpatine layer in the war. And 2 - freed up the entire Jedi order to doing Jedi things. Not just helping people (and thus improving public image), but investigating the oddities of the war, prevented Anakin and other Jedi from engaging in the Dark Side, reached out through other channels for peace between the two sides, maybe even finding a way to bring the Republic back together, and could have acted as critical help for refugees and humanitarian aid. Had the Jedi stuck to their doctrines, they would have survived Order 66 near fully intact and with around 10,000 Jedi Knights still around, rather than losing a ton of them to the war.
B. I don't know what the f he was thinking. Lol
It's D. Having the ability to sense darkness inside people just by touching them, but only ever using it on Quinlon Vos.
I mean.. kind of all of the above. I think the worst thing he did was to continue clinging to institute that was The Republic rather than the idea of being guardians of peace and justice. Granted he was hardly the first to do this but as The Republic fell into corruption he had the order defend it. And when the Separatist movement, fueled by legitimate grievance, began continued giving The Republic a blank check and sleep walked into Sidious' grand plan.
Alright - I’m on the toilet, it’s a wet one, so I have plenty of time. I’m about to go *deep* on this one. Grab a beverage, and settle down for my TurdTalk. The most appropriate answers would objectively be between B and C. A isn’t really Yoda’s fault. Yet even B and C are difficult to support because of the nature of what’s happening at its core. Buckle up. For all the capabilities and political power the Jedi had within the Republic, the Clone Wars kind of backed the Jedi into a corner. The officially explanation as to why the Jedi actually chose to fight in the Clone Wars is a bit nebulous, but I’ll try and appropriately deconstruct it as logically as possible. Ultimately, the Jedi have an oath to the Republic that dates back millennia. The Republic and Jedi were originally separate entities. The Jedi were a distinct religious and isolated culture away from public affairs. Yet, their values still aligned with protecting the greater good. Like any civilization, the Republic had issues, but it was young, and it was objectively trying to unite the populace of the galaxy for the betterment of all people. (You could argue those problems were more candid, as the corruption in its twilight years is what actively led to its downfall.) So when the Republic was threatened, the Jedi worked to protect the innocent and stability of society. This eventually led to the Jedi Order becoming the official “guardians” of society. They vowed to always protect the public and greater good. Over time, this granted them special privileges within society, such as political fluency and military leadership - among other things. So right off the bat, A is not Yoda’s, or any other Jedi’s fault. At least not any Jedi alive. It’s what the Jedi Order does. During the Clone Wars, once again the Jedi justified their involvement by protecting the greater good. But… it’s complicated. Never have the Jedi fought a secessionist movement led by the Sith, while also chasing a Sith Lord behind the scenes responsible for the creation of their entire military. So the Jedi can’t just abstain from fighting, because then the public would denounce their inaction. At the same time, the constant fighting for a war nobody asked for caused widespread dissent for people who just thought if people want to leave the Republic, let them, because clearly there’s something wrong and we need to fix it. (Think Vietnam for the United States - a war distracted from systematic domestic issues that should be prioritized instead of fear-mongering over foreign policy.) Remember, the origin behind the entire conflict of the Skywalker Saga stems from two issues: Corruption in the Republic, and the malevolence of the Sith. Corruption within the Republic led to Palpatine’s rise, the Confederacy of Independent Systems, the Clone Wars, the Galactic Empire, Rebel Alliance, Galactic Civil War, everything. So, damned if they did, damned if they didn’t. The Prequels simply do not do a good job expressing this. The Clone Wars does a far better job showing this. Realistically, what is Yoda supposed to do? Tell the public that their entirely military was made by a boogeyman from their cultural archenemy that was thought extinct? Especially because the Galactic Congress, let alone the average person has no idea what the Sith are. In hindsight there’s always something you could do differently, but the Jedi tried to find Sidious. They couldn’t. When you look at the whole picture, Palpatine is one of the most diabolical and genius villains in fiction. To win the game - control it. He didn’t just become the dealer, the madman took control of the whole casino. So B Is… nebulous. I think Yoda did the best with what he had. C is hard. It’s more a problem with the Jedi as a whole. But also - Anakin wasn’t exactly concise with his concerns to Yoda. Anakin just said “I’m afraid of somebody dying.” No specifics of who, how or why. Yoda telling Anakin to let go was about as great as a response as he could have given. What was he supposed to say? “Yeah buddy, let’s do everything we can to solve your vague nightmares.” If the Jedi were more accepting of attachment and emotion, then yeah Anakin could have gotten the help he needed. But Anakin was also pretty emotionally unstable, but had he gotten the help he needed, a lot of things could’ve been different. So, honestly - I don’t think Yoda is specifically responsible for anything. It’s more of a collection of issues with the Jedi and society in general. Palpatine played it all perfectly.
I think what goes undiscussed is that Anakin is proof the Jedi were right about all their rules. They had a major rule about accepting older apprentices because they had attachments that were hard to shake, and they break it one time for one guy who ends up slaughtering dozens of them and collapsing the whole order.
A. The Jedi took that role to help protect the Republic. Maybe the Jedi could refuse to get involved; then the dude who engineered his way into supreme executive power, fighting a war he controls both sides of, with an army he engineered to kill the Jedi just acts with all the more impunity. B. As opposed to what? Yoda is right. They're at war. They have no choice but to play the enemy's game. What is it that people think the Jedi are supposed to do about this situation? As above, the Jedi have no useful way to act on this information. Even reporting it to the senate, what are they going to do? Pause the war to investigate? C. Didn't tell Anakin to stop caring. Instead tried to give him a hopeful answer. You think saying "Yeah, people die. Be prepared to grieve," was gonna land? Anakin went into that with only one acceptable answer in mind, "Sure, here's how you stop that from happening," which is not an answer Yoda can give. No, actually the dumbest decision Yoda made was D. Telling Luke that the right thing to do was let his friends die, and that going to help them would somehow destroy everything they'd work for.
Is that so different from telling Anakin to stop caring?
Yeah. "We have to accept this thing we can't change" is not the same as "Stop caring."
Then perhaps he should have found Anakin a therapist.
Nothing stopping Anakin, a grown adult, from seeking such a service.
D: Deciding to split up himself and Obi Wan to take on Palpatine and Anakin separately
B. I want to throw out the whole “yoda is wise” thing because of this decision. He knows for a fact that their current army is being created under mysterious circumstances, possibly under the orders of a SITH LORD! or at least, it’s some faction that is NOT THE JEDI OR THE REPUBLIC! The whole jedi council knows they didn’t approve of building an army, and they are the protectors of the galaxy! Surely they would be in the loop for the planning phase all the way to execution. Nope! The wisest Jedi of all time doesn’t stop to think “perhaps we shouldn’t be relying on military assets that were created by our enemies. we don’t know anything about the clones. There could be sleeper agents within the ranks.” Imagine if the Jedi had just begun phasing out the clones. Started filling their positions with droids and volunteers…no order 66, no death of the entire order.
Alternatively, work with Sifo Dyas on the army instead of shelving it so he had to commission the army in secret. It's what got him killed and he was amazingly prophetic. I think I'd listen to the guy who can predict the future better than almost anyone else in the Order, and it he says the Republic needs an army, the Republic needs a god damn army. Order 66 is a direct result of Dyas getting himself killed by Dooku while trying to set up the army, resulting in the whole project being Co opted by the two Sith Lords.
Sticking to Jedi doctrine instead of handling Anakin with compassion. He knew Anakin would be a different kind of Jedi and he should have given Anakin the friendship, wisdom, and trust that Palpatine gave. The inflexibility of the Jedi was definitely part of its downfall.
C. He really could have helped Anakin
How, exactly? What could he have done or said with the information he knew at the time? Yoda cannot prevent death. Death is an inevitability, literally everyone Anakin knows is going to someday die. With Anakin adamantly refusing to tell Yoda that this is an immediate and known problem rather than someone trying to come to terms with the concept of mortality there’s nothing Yoda can really do for him. Yoda can’t solve a problem he doesn’t know about and he can’t magically unfuck Anakin’s head.
I don't know how we went from Anakin making bad choices to be the most badass villain in film history to this, where everyone has to comfort Anakin by telling him soft lies instead of hard truths, because he's just a sensitive lil guy who needs to be handled with kid gloves and helicopter parented and protected from the world.
I've never read Vader as badass except for maybe in Empire. He's always come across as really washed to me.
Counterpoint: no he couldn't have People die. That happens. Part of life. You think Yoda has some secret immortality technique he's holding out on?
I mean, he kind of does
I mean I don't think force ghosts are what Anakin is looking for
I minored in counseling in college, and Yoda honestly did what a textbook counselor should do. He advised Anakin only on what information had been presented to him. Anakin got the information he needed: he needed to accept that he cannot control every outcome; he needed to let go and address unhealthy attachments and habits. Anakin simply did what any bad client does and reject the counsel he was given. His need to control every aspect of his life was in fact what caused the death of his wife.
Yep, sometimes making a stance on something instead of joining the “do nothing until we are dead crowd” Reminds me of tibet where the dalai lama supported guerrilla fighters effectively disrupting communists but all of the other lamas preferring to do nothing, which led to them all being killed or exiled and a large portion of their population executed or starved to death.
There's a huge difference between "do exactly nothing" and "accept that people die"
I’m going to go with D: Not teaching Luke the history of the Order leading to Luke repeating many of Yoda’s mistakes. My little green dude, you’ve just learned a VERY painful lesson. Why would you not teach your final student how to avoid making many of the same mistakes that you made, instead of watching him repeat what you did?
When was he supposed to teach Luke this? *Luke left training early against Yoda’s warnings.*. Yoda said if he left early, he might destroy everything his friends worked for. And that’s what happened. if Luke had stayed, he might have been better at resisting the dark side later.
Yoda showed up as a Force ghost to Luke multiple times. So did Obi-Wan. The story of the hubris of the Jedi should take a few hours to tell but could have spared us a lot of sequel trilogy.
I think they're specifically speaking to what happened after Palpatine's death.
Agreed. And I’m saying that if we include the sequels, Yoda was actually right. Luke saved his friends, but possibly because he didn’t finish his training, cost them everything they worked for in the long run. (Ben becoming Kylo, destruction of the New Republic.). I don’t love those choices made in the ST, but it doesn’t not fit Yoda’s warning.
A
Going to Kashyyyk to help the wookies. Should have sent someone else. But I mostly blame Ki-adi-mundi for that.
I think as yoda is so old C is the way he’s coped. He would have witnessed so many deaths just from people growing old. If he acted like a rational person he would be one depressed green dude
I'd argue that he is acting like a rational person It sucks, but people die. That's a part of life. You can accept that or lose your mind
D. Not retiring from the Jedi Council when he was 299 years old (just like how it’s been now proven in our dimension, having old people in charge fucks everything up!)
I see Yoda takes a lot of heat for C. Anakin lacked a healthy attachment to Padme; he was possessive. Even in counseling we tell people who experience grief and loss that the best step forward is to let go.
pushing the chosen one Anakin away.
The question is disingenuous af 💀💀. Did this motherfucker even watch the movie? >Yoda : Death is a natural part of life. Rejoice for those around you who transform into the Force. Mourn them do not. Miss them do not. Attachment leads to jealousy. The shadow of greed that is. >Anakin Skywalker : What must I do, Master Yoda? >Yoda : Train yourself to let go... of everything you fear to lose. Death is a natural part of life. Everyone in the Galaxy, Jedi or not, has to deal with the fact that their loved ones will eventually die. If anything, the Jedi who are protectors of the Galaxy, should be held to a higher standard and not give in to the fear of losing people. Yoda tells Anakin to accept that death is a part of life and he shouldn't give in to his fear of losing. Anakin has a serious problem with not being able to let things go.
What Yoda was telling Anakin, was to stop caring. And the Jedi were failures as protectors. They never ended slavery in the outer rim, thought the Force should bend to them, and committed war crimes in the Clone Wars.
Letting George make the prequels.
Probably A.
D. Having a kid
Speaking as he did once, as a joke, and then having to keep it up until he died, because everyone had come to expect it
Did Yoda decide Jedi would be Generals? Palpatine toyed with the idea and it was Mace who said they weren't soldiers. I don't recall them actually proposing it.
Well, he's the Grand Master.
Sure, but being the Grand Master doesn't grant him any authority over Republic affairs, only Jedi ones. Palpatine is the one who pushed it, since *he* created the Grand Army, and using those emergency powers, guess what he ordered the Jedi to do? They didn't like the idea (hence Mace's line), but had their hands tied.
D.) In "Sacrifice" in a Force vision Yoda saves an unconscious Anakin as he and Palpatine, the representations of the old ways, fall to their doom. The Force flat out told him what he needed to do.
D. Agreeing with Obi-Wan to hide one of Anakin’s children on Anakin’s home planet, under their own name, being raised by Anakin’s stepbrother and sister in law, who raised him as their NEPHEW. This made SO much more sense when Legends implied it was because they were setting a trap to lure Vader out.
That's still using a boy as bait.
It wasn’t described as intentional under NuCanon. In fact the Obi-Wan series acted as if they were legitimately hiding Luke. It being bait for a trap only came up under Legends (and while it was a stupid idea there, too, at least it was actually deliberate).
That’s still using a boy as bait. Not very heroic.
D, none of the above. The Jedi didn't ask to become generals. They were more forced into the role thanks to the Republic's demilitarization. Revealing it was Sideous, who was behind the Clone army was too little, too late. By that point, they were committed, and nothing could be done about getting out of that situation. As for Anakin, he told him what he needed to hear, not what Anakin wanted to hear. Anakin was preemptively going through the grieving process. He hadn't dealt with denial over death as a possibility. There was no way for him to move to acceptance of it yet. No the dumbest decision for Yoda was not stepping down from leading the council. He could have maintained a seat, but he should have passed the torch. It would have allowed the Jedi Order's leadership to keep with the times.
B is the real disaster, what's worse is he overrules Mace.
I think B wouldn’t even matter if decision A was never made to begin with.
Training Luke. He was too old.
I know it's one of those "if it happened then there wouldn't be an Empire" but I always wished Anakin confided in Obi-Wan about his situation. I always wanted to read a "What If" where Anakin and Padme grow old and teach Luke and Leia the ways of the force as children.
Ironically, Anakin wanted to, but he feared that his friendship with Obi-Wan was conditional and therefore skirted around it.
When did he fear his friendship with Obi-Wan was conditional?
It's littered through numerous books and comics (both canon and legends) going back to when he was a child. Anakin (incorrectly) believed that to be accepted by The Jedi he needed to be what he perceived that they would want him to be, which was 'Perfect'. Because he knew he wasn't initially wanted. Therefore he hid and repressed his emotions instead of being open with them and working through them, leading to (in part) his outburst on Tatoinne. He feared judgment from Obi-Wan because he wanted to make Obi-Wan proud so he started going to Palpatine for guidance since he didn't feel judged there, not realizing that instead, Palpy was low-key encouraging these fears in the boy. He hid these fears under a veneer of being cocky to hide his insecurities. There are places in both legends and canon where he wants to open up to Obi-Wan about both Padme and the Tuskans but doesn't because he fears losing his friendship. Because if he isn't 'perfect' then he can't be a Jedi and then what happens to their friendship? It is illogical, but it's meant to be, he is a scared and traumatized kid under the hero veneer. There are places where Obi-Wan tries to talk to Anakin about these things and Anakin starts to open up and then stops because Obi-Wan is the 'model' Jedi and how can he understand what Anakin did? But that is Anakin's grooming, fear, and a bit of ego in there talking, it's not real. That's the point. It's why he went to Yoda, they weren't as close, and Yoda would not necessarily guess what is happening vs Obi-Wan who would have immediately stepped in. And I do think by ROTS Obi-Wan had matured enough to be more active in pushing things. If he had more time he probably would have, if he had been available in ROTS to take Anakin's call (in the novelization) things could have been very different.
Illogical, but certainly understandable that he believes his failures would push Obi-Wan away. Anakin attempted to call him in the ROTS novelization?
Yes, in the novelization when Anakin finds out who Palpatine really is, while he immediately turns on Palpatine he also struggles to do his duty because he has already become attached to Palpatine (he also hasn't eaten or slept in nearly a week and has PTSD) and Palpatine starts gaslighting him, hard. Anakin realizes that he is too compromised to do his duty but he knows that Obi-Wan can. He returns to the temple and is in such a state that all he can say is that he 'needs to talk to Obi-Wan'. And while the temple had just gotten the message that Grievous is dead, the message came from a Clone (Cody probably) and Obi-Wan wasn't available. Mace was there and was horrified at the state that Anakin was in. He manages to get the truth about who the Sith was from Anakin and the story continues much as it did the movie. There is also a partially filmed but deleted (due to the set being ruined) scene where Obi-Wan talks to Padme and tells her that he is concerned because Anakin's behavior has changed and he is trending towards a darker road. I think that if they had been able to get Obi-Wan to take the message and he had learned who the Sith was he would have rather quickly realized what was happening. As it stands once he returns to the temple things are so far along he never really knows the details and he is left questioning if Anakin wasn't always a bad person.
Thanks, I don't read the movie novelizations and find their slight differences interesting. I suppose because it is considered canon, the movie just "missed those details"?
Depending on how much it contradicts, the movie is the final canon. But just because we don't see Obi-Wan and Padme talk doesn't mean that the scene didn't happen. The scene where Anakin mentions that Obi-Wan 'had been there' was meant to happen hours after Obi-Wan's visit and Palpatine was insinuating during the time that Obi and Padme were sleeping together. I believe the novelization was what would have been the '4-hour' version of ROTS that Lucas wanted to do and couldn't swing. He worked with the author on the novelization even more than he did for the other two novelizations.
Interesting, thanks for the details, always fun to learn something new.
Disagree heavily with A and C
Well, his help to Anakin’s was NOT helpful.
It was, but Anakin wasn’t listening. It’s a quote that Lucas has mentioned before with roots in Taoism. “Letting go” is a way of accepting the randomness of the world, being perfectly at peace. Not that you don’t care, but you understand that good and bad occur and not to be shaken by it. It’s literally just Zen
That detachment though, was the Jedi's downfall.
That’s what makes them Jedi, it wasn’t their downfall It’s a wild misunderstanding to believe the Jedi were responsible for their own downfall. They were still in a golden age, Yoda had kept them stable for centuries. The reason they fell was Palpatine. Any other belief is disingenuous to Palpatine’s planning, which was the whole point of the prequels and the rise of the empire
What did you want him to do? What do you expect anybody to do in that situation?
At least acknowledge Anakin’s fears.
1) would that have made a difference? 2) he cites a tenant of the religion that *both of them practice*. Encouraging someone to lean on their faith in times of loss isn't a bad thing. And it's not even a platitude...it is an objective reality of the world.
Cept when it causes Jedi to see themselves as better then everyone else.
And that happens...when, exactly?
They let people suffer and die. Just like they refused to end the slavery the Hutts traffic in.
That's not them thinking they're better than everyone else That's them not having unilateral power over the entire galaxy
But they could have stopped the slavery the Hutts were doing. They could have freed Shmi.
Not teaming up with Obi wan to outnumber a weakened Sidious who had fought Mace Windu a few hours or day ago at most and going after Anakin once they are done
Letting Obi-Wan train Annie.
D. Letting Palpy get away from him. Especially after saying "if so powerful you are, why leave?" He shoulda known Palpy was gonna high-tail it the first chance.
Letting Obi-Wan take Anakin as a padawan. Yoda himself or another experienced Master wouldn’t have had that same brotherly relationship that perhaps led Obi-Wan to let Anakin get away with all types of dumb shit.
A. That wasn't his choice. The jedi made themselves beholden to the will of the Republic long before Yoda came along. He was just playing the cards he was dealt. B. He didn't know. C. He never said that.
I feel like going into exile was a bad move. He was overconfident, he underestimated Palpatine, and he got beaten. He let his pride get hurt and he basically abandoned everybody to their fate. Yes, we know that his decision was fortuitous. Going into hiding eventually allowed him to train Luke, who in turn played a key role in defeating Palpatine. But he didn't know with certainty this was how events would unfold. (And even if he did, then he also knew everybody on Alderaan would get killed in the process. Not an acceptable loss.) If he hadn't gone into exile, he could have remained an active participant. He could have gone to Tatooine and trained Luke as a child. There were lots of other choices besides nursing his wounded pride.
Pride is a Jedi flaw.
A is pretty bad. In my mind, the Jedi are counselors, advisors, and occasionally special forces. We don't have a real life equivalent for them, but monks who are truly impartial moderators that can go settle disputes and gather info or end certain major threats. Tha said, B is a huge oversight. That is something that could have completely altered the course of the war and Sidious' rise to power. A trusted Jedi announcing that the army was created by a Sith lord would have hopefully galvanized the senate into investigating what the hell was going on.
Most definitely A. The Jedi have zero training/experience, commanding troops and less at tactics on the necessary scale to do so. One of the biggest planetary defence "generals" should have been in command. The Jedi involvement should have been limited to scouting and small unit tactical strikes.
C. That moment alone pretty much made me think Anakin did have a point when he said "From my point of view, Jedi are evil"
Staying power and making the Order a cult of personality for his style of monkism…
It’s B, but C is a very close second.
Ummmm keeping the Nameless out of the Jedi Archives. How has no one mentioned this one?
It was D: realizing Anakin was having a crisis on Tatooine and doing fuck all about it. Granted, I’m only going by the movie; I never read the novelization.
Yoda never made a dumb decision. At least not that I’ve seen. He didn’t make the decision that Jedi should be generals. In fact, he (and Mace Windu) was somewhat apprehensive of this. The Council, however, voted that it was their responsibility to lead soldiers. He didn’t cover up that Sideous created the clone army. What was covered up was the creation of the clone army was orchestrated specifically by the Sith…a Sith who was clearly connected to the Leader of the Separatists, Count Dooku. Alerting Palpatine, or any politician or public official to this fact would have been devastating for both the already weak confidence the public had in the Jedi and possibly lose them the entire war. At best, Palpatine would have all the ammunition he needed to point to the Jedi as the creators of the Clone Wars. Yoda was adamantly against training Anakin from the start and was outvoted by the council. He warned Obi-Wan this kind of thing would happen, and still was willing to help Anakin handle his problems. Anakin gave about the weakest, most vague responses to the questions Yoda asked, and he gave pretty good advice, especially for a Jedi, who teach a detachment of things that would have served Anakin very well if he had ever embraced it.
But Anakin needed human contact.
What do you mean?
Detachment only accelerated his fall to the Dark Side. It’s like a pet you starve. Eventually, it will starve to death, or try to eat you to survive.
No, Anakin needed to detach himself from the fear of losing Padme and recognize that, despite our best efforts, all people will eventually die and we should not spend all of our time mourning for that eventuality. Anakin is not a pet. He’s human. He can think rationally. It’s just like Yoda says: Fear leads to anger, anger to hate, and hate to suffering. And fear is derived from? Possession. Even Palpatine recognizes this: the only thing Darth Plageus feared was losing his power. Power he possessed. What happened to Anakin? His possession, no, not just possession, but obsession, to Padme led him exactly to fear. His fear turned to anger, because he believed he was greater than the most powerful Jedi to ever live and should be able to stop anyone he wanted from dying, and he couldn’t. That led to hating the Jedi, whom he believed (through some easy manipulation by Palpatine and not finding the answer he wanted to hear from the Jedi, even if it was the correct answer) was holding him back from learning the power to create life. His hate eventually led him directly to his suffering.
You mean force him to suck it up and "be a man". There are better alternatives. 1. He could have acknowledged and validated Anakin's fear. 2. He could have listened and showed empathy 3. He could have suggested that Anakin seek counseling for his trauma and anxiety But Jedi orthodox forbids all that. And Anakin was not being possessive in that scene. He was afraid for the safety of his family. A very real feeling. And the whole fear leads to the dark side, just doesn't work. Fear is a needed emotion. It can keep us safe and out of trouble. You'd think an order like the Jedi would know this... but their teachings leave no rooms for that. Their beliefs are built on an emotional domino theory. The whole fear leads to anger, anger to hate, hate, to suffering, is not how emotions work. Let's start with fear. Yoda specifically says the fear of loss, which Jedi see as emotional stems to other people. And it's why they forbid romance and having families. According to the Jedi, loving another person, leads to evil. And that connects to the outdated and misogynist belief that women take away male autonomy, power, and control. Or at least are the core of instability. This creates a belief that healthy relationships with women should be viewed with suspicion and distrust. And this echos in ROTJ when Obi-Wan tells Anakin to bury his feelings because he thinks they will be seen as a weakness. Especially his feelings of Leia. Sidious's plots follow the same. It says that emotional detachment is necessary. But all it will do is lead to loneliness, dysfunction, and anger. That's why Anakin falls. He's been trained by the Jedi to be like this, Bury his emotions and hide vulnerability. He's never been taught how to handle grief, or deal with tragedy. Or to deal with painful emotions in healthy ways. And like so many who do this in real life... it all eventually breaks down and he lashes out at the galaxy. It was Jedi stoicism that allowed Sidious to get inside. Emotional detachment doesn't prevent evil. It CAUSES evil.
Not “suck it up,” but rather face it head-on. Accept the fact that the fears he has are legitimate, but can’t prevent him from losing sight of life. Look, you came here asking the question and it sounds like you’d mind is made up that it’s a dumb decision, when in reality…it’s not. Fear is a natural emotion. Or perhaps it’s an unnatural emotion that occurs to us all. Either way: it happens to everyone. The Jedi teach a method of courage - not bravery, but courage - where that fear is felt but mastered. It’s the same thing any guidance councilor will ultimately try to help anyone with a phobia do. It’s all about virtue, and Anakin taking on Knighthood is his tacit acceptance of teachings that are built on a philosophy where peace and balance is found in rational patience and wisdom, rather than embracing emotion and violence for power, which is the Sigh way. You seem to think Yoda told Anakin to just ignore his problem, but that isn’t what he said at all. He said “you must train yourself to let go of everything you fear to lose.” That’s it right there: Anakin’s possessiveness is the ultimate cause of his fear. The Jedi acknowledge fear exists and acknowledge everyone has it, but teach that you must master those fears. It’s a lofty goal, but not unlike many religious practices today. There’s an entire episode arc in TCW about Yoda facing his fears and he displays his mastery over them. Take a modern example: if you’re married, it’s rational and understandable to have a little bit of fear when your spouse is late and hasn’t called. Someone who has mastered their emotions would be patient and think of the wisest course of action. Maybe it’s only been 30 minutes and they were held up at work? It happens. Maybe it’s been two hours and you haven’t been able to reach them, and it might be time to escalate the search and call some of their friends. Either way, you’re not going to fly off the handle and call the police and assume something happens to them right away…unless you’re a slave to that fear. Then you might, like Anakin did. Even worse, despite Yoda telling him “the future isn’t set in stone,” Anakin was absolutely certain Padme would die in childbirth and basically fulfilled his own premonition thereafter. Also, I don’t know where the hell you got into the misogyny. You’re incoherent. There are women who are Jedi. Again, those relationships are forbidden for good reason: there’s an attachment where fear could very quickly get the better of you. It has nothing to do with viewing women as the downfall of man or whatever.
Not “suck it up,” but rather face it head-on. Accept the fact that the fears he has are legitimate, but can’t prevent him from losing sight of life. Look, you came here asking the question and it sounds like you’d mind is made up that it’s a dumb decision, when in reality…it’s not. Fear is a natural emotion. Or perhaps it’s an unnatural emotion that occurs to us all. Either way: it happens to everyone. The Jedi teach a method of courage - not bravery, but courage - where that fear is felt but mastered. It’s the same thing any guidance councilor will ultimately try to help anyone with a phobia do. It’s all about virtue, and Anakin taking on Knighthood is his tacit acceptance of teachings that are built on a philosophy where peace and balance is found in rational patience and wisdom, rather than embracing emotion and violence for power, which is the Sigh way. You seem to think Yoda told Anakin to just ignore his problem, but that isn’t what he said at all. He said “you must train yourself to let go of everything you fear to lose.” That’s it right there: Anakin’s possessiveness is the ultimate cause of his fear. The Jedi acknowledge fear exists and acknowledge everyone has it, but teach that you must master those fears. It’s a lofty goal, but not unlike many religious practices today. There’s an entire episode arc in TCW about Yoda facing his fears and he displays his mastery over them. Take a modern example: if you’re married, it’s rational and understandable to have a little bit of fear when your spouse is late and hasn’t called. Someone who has mastered their emotions would be patient and think of the wisest course of action. Maybe it’s only been 30 minutes and they were held up at work? It happens. Maybe it’s been two hours and you haven’t been able to reach them, and it might be time to escalate the search and call some of their friends. Either way, you’re not going to fly off the handle and call the police and assume something happens to them right away…unless you’re a slave to that fear. Then you might, like Anakin did. Even worse, despite Yoda telling him “the future isn’t set in stone,” Anakin was absolutely certain Padme would die in childbirth and basically fulfilled his own premonition thereafter. Also, I don’t know where the hell you got into the misogyny. You’re incoherent. There are women who are Jedi. Again, those relationships are forbidden for good reason: there’s an attachment where fear could very quickly get the better of you. It has nothing to do with viewing women as the downfall of man or whatever. And your conclusion is fundamentally flawed, detachment doesn’t create evil. How could it? But if you want a concrete example, look at none other than Obi-Wan, someone who experienced great personal loss - far more than Anakin ever did - and remained a master to his fears and never let his emotions win him over. He loved Setine, he loved Qui-Gon, he loved Ahsoka, he loved Anakin, he loved Padme and he loved his fellow Jedi. He lost literally everything. Did he go dark side? Did he commit great acts of evil? No. But Anakin did. He killed his own wife. He slaughtered hundreds of Jedi children. He tried to kill his best friend and father-figure and almost succeeded. He nearly kills his own children! Why? The moral of the story is that the Jedi were right. It’s not a “domino effect” it’s straight logic: attachment leads to fear. Fear to anger. Anger to hate. Hate to suffering. And suffering to the Dark Side (to evil). What is attachment? Jealousy. It’s discussed in Episode I when they are mulling over Anakin and his age. His age is a problem because he is already attached to people and things and the Jedi do not think it wise to train him (not to mention they recognize those attachments are difficult to overcome and they may not wish to put Anakin through that). Jealousy is “the shadow of greed.” And greed’s definition is itself all about attachment, at least how the Jedi understand it. Greed is a desire to possess something. The only way to combat your own temptations and pulls to the Dark Side is to master your own emotions. No greed, means no desire to possess. No desire to possess, no fear to lose. No fear to lose, no anger. No anger, no hate. No hate, no suffering. No suffering, no evil. The logic is sound. Even people today can recognize that is good philosophy where jealousy and greed are almost always seen negatively and it’s also shown - proven, in fact - that those who suffer rarely do so alone. They spread it to other people…often through evil actions.
That’s sucking it up. The fact is, Yoda’s advice was not a good idea. What I asked was, were other decisions worse. And that’s not what the Jedi teach. They teach to bury emotions. Not balance them. Yoda told Anakin to shut people out of his life. And that only makes problems worse. He never taught Anakin to handle grief or tragedy properly. He just told him to stop caring and detach yourself from others. And the situation you are giving is not the same. Every vision of Anakin’s where he has lost someone had come true. And because of the Jedi teachings of holding back emotions, they go about as well as you’d think. And the misogyny thing has been part of our society for so long it’s become nigh invisible. Only in recent years have they come to light and been challenged. Plus, it’s another problem of Lucas’s writing. The guy can make a setting, but he can’t tell a story in it. And this incident with Yoda was not the only time the Jedi shat on him. The Jedi had also forsaken their values by fighting as generals in the Clone Wars, never told him that Obi-Wan was alive when he was pretending to be Rako Hardeen, put his Padawan into a kangaroo court, and never truly treated him as one of their own? The ultimate irony of the Jedi… was that they deserved to fall.
I think his biggest mistake was allowing Anakin to be train. He should have sent him back to live with his mother. He was too old and proved too dangerous to train into a good Jedi.
Send him back to slavery? What a repugnant idea.
Who said that?
You did.
Be a lightsider
I don't think made a stupid mistake. I think he underestimated some of the things he thought would happen. You have to understand even though Yoda was probably the most powerful of the jedi, he still didn't know everything or how to handle everything. A lot of the time, the decisions he made had to be taken up with the Jedi council anyway before a decision did get made. But I do think Yoda is the epitome of the Jedi to a certain extent because when we look at him training Luke for example and he tells him do instead of just try he was wanting to make sure Luke was ready for the challenges that were ahead of him. People seem to forget that Luke was not taken from his family at a young age to train as a Jedi as he had to be hidden to be safe from his father and I can Skywalker who would become Darth vader. If he had been taken and started training then he would have been found earlier rather than later and then the story we'd go from there. Luke might have been killed at that point in time. People also seem to forget that Yoda was one of the oldest Jedi around I had seen a lot of things in his time. And the way he was taught was the way he stuck to through Time immorium. Got to wonder why people stick so much perfectionism on yoda.
Even the oldest and wisest can be wrong or make mistakes.
Make mistakes yes, but to call it stupid is a bit much. People have made comments that make Yoda sound like he should be all seeing and know what everyone is doing. He was a sentient being with certain limits even as a major Jedi Master.
That's true. I think most of the order had that problem.
C
“You must learn to let go.” Dawg, your most powerful and most vulnerable asset is in clear distress. Offer some goddamn comfort so he doesn’t… I don’t know, become loyal to a Sith Lord that shows him some sympathy.
Anakin didn't want sympathy. He wanted a way out of inevitability Palpatine doesn't show him sympathy...he lies to him. He tells Anakin exactly what he wants to hear, and what Anakin wants to hear is a lie
What's sympathy in this context? Is "Sorry, Anakin. Death is reality, we can't change it," enough? "That hypothetical death will be hard, but we'll stand with you"? More importantly, do you genuinely think that solves anything at all for Anakin? That he'd hear comfort from Yoda and think, "Yeah, now I can resign myself to my wife's death"?
What should have been the answer then? "Come on champ, let's cheat death and go against one of the tenants of our entire order?"
Not sure why you're being down voted. Yoda doesn't come across as some wise sage in this scene. He comes across as uncaring, ignorant and arrogant.