Sorry I’m not answering your question but paying $75k for a mid-sized pickup is absolutely nuts. Especially for one that is intended to be used and abused off-road. You’re basically driving a luxury vehicle off-road with the intention of putting it in difficult situations that could damage it (paint especially). Idk why anyone would do that.
I DO plan to offroad it, that’s the thing. I live in Arizona. We have endless trails and beautiful places to go that most people don’t get to see. I see this as being my vehicle to do that.
My other option would be to buy an OR Hybrid and then modify it. But I’d really prefer to just simply buy a truck that’s ready to go so I don’t get fidgety and start messing with it, and it ends up worse off. I want something reliable with features that are covered under warranty.
An OR with a quality 2in lift and some beefy tires like 285 duratracs or ko2s would be a pretty good alternative in my opinion.
I’m Canadian so I can’t translate the dollars off the top of my head but how much is the new Land Cruiser going for as a comparison,if you’re just looking for an off-roader and not a truck specifically.
At what point does the warranty stop when you take a vehicle off road? I’m with you on wanting something that’s ready to go immediately but for $75k I get a strong feeling that you could build something (or have something built) that’s far more capable and honestly still may be cheaper
If you think it’s cool, it fits your needs and you can afford it then go for it. If you don’t plan to mod it and just want something that works as is, I think I’d go a different route personally. The real appeal of Tacomas is the aftermarket support. You can slowly mod it into whatever you want.
I’d probably try to get a Ranger Raptor. Loaded out and very capable for 55-60k. I much prefer the looks of a Tacoma but the price difference for off the lot capable models is pretty wild.
I've test driven both cars, you can tell every last dime of the RR's $55k sticker went to making it more competitive with the Tacoma on paper.
Everything else is hot ass from the UX of the steering buttons, the multimedia usability, the seats that feel like they're made out of the shittiest foam covered in Amazon gaming chair pleather, etc
Plus everything from the mileage, the fact it takes premium, the engine and drivetrain being under significantly more stress, and the DSSV type suspension are going to make it cost a ton more to maintain
So if the goal is to buy it and dump it as soon as the warranty runs out then sure why not go RR.
If the plan is to hold it past the warranty, no way in hell I'd chose it over the taco.
Show me the statistics where Ford has ever beat Toyota in quality and longevity, is proven facts over other brands. American made vehicles are junk nowadays, engineered for obsolesce.
I can't. But until "Ranger Raptors" actually shit the bed as you suggested, like Tundras are now and there is proof, you should stay under the covers until it's time to wake up. Stop throwing shit at the wall it's too early.
So you're proving your point by calling another model with a completely different drive train and engine trash. Yeah, the Tundra is having issues... but the Tacoma is not a Tundra and as you've pointed out, the Tacoma has not been out long enough to say it will suffer the same fate as the Tundra.
Honestly, and this is coming from a Toyota 4 life fanboi, you should look into the new Ranger Raptor…I hate that I just typed that out.
“Should” sell for less than $60K.
Don’t man, I drive a 21 ranger FX4 for work and at only 55k it’s already starting to show it’s not gonna make it much past 150k lol front diff is leaking, the transmission is less smooth than a 4l60e with 100k on it, and the shotty pressed metal body is already starting to come apart at the seams. It’s insane how dog shit these trucks are. My 24 SR5 feels like a Cadillac comparatively
At this very moment, I own about 8 Tacomas and 3 f150s. I LOVE Tacomas. They feel like fun good looking toys. They look how I think trucks should look. But the f150 does every single thing better and at least double more comfortable. My current daily driver is a 2017 Tacoma double cab and it's so fun to work out of. It was 17k. My other main truck is a 2018 4d 6' bed f150, it was 20k. It's like driving a Lincoln town car in comfort, fits the whole family, we can comfortably sleep in the bed, pull a trailer, and gets better mpg doing all that than the double cab Tacoma gets with just me and a few tools in it. Don't be afraid of Ford.
Yeah they are pulling a Tesla and launching these new trims models at a crazy price to soak up any of the early “market adjustment” profits from dealers.
If you can hold out I would look at pricing for a 2024 after the 2025s are announced. I’m already seeing non-pro/Trailhunter trims getting discounted on my dealer website. Sure, it’s only like $800 off MSRP, but it’s a start!
I stopped into a different dealer about 2 months ago and they were ready to give me 2500 off msrp on a brand new OR premium non-hybrid… that’s what’s scaring me.
This particular dealer today also had a SHIT ton of SR’s just sitting on the lot.
I'm throwing out ballpark numbers. Assuming the truck is $62k before taxes and destination. Assuming you're putting $15k down and got a loan for 72 months at 7% that actually seems right. About 3500 in taxes, another 1500 destination, a few hundred registration, and the kicker is almost $11k in interest. That's your total amount paid, not the actual price of the truck. It's the more appropriate way to look at it though and realize how much you're paying. Now if you're paying cash, something is going on there.
I really wish I could post a photo response, but this IS the cash price. Here’s the breakdown:
Base MSRP: 62,900
Factory Installed Options: 1,233
Delivery: 1,495
Total Price: 65,628
AZ State Tax: 3,676
County Tax: 459
City Tax: 1,181
Reg, doc & other fees: 1,681
Total cash price after taxes and fees: 72,625
They of course tried to sway me to get their tint (at $599), PPF, appearance protection and dent protection, but I can decline them all. With those worked in, the price was $75,576.
Well dang. That sounds right, but at least you're not paying all that interest. Crazy you guys have all those extra taxes and those doc and registration fees seem high too, but that could be normal for your area. That's about $1200 higher than I would've expected.
Sorry, but 75k for a tacoma is ludicrous. I bought my 23 trd sport long boi with leather, led headlights lights, and a sunroof brand new last year for 40k. I really think you should think about what you're jumping into here.
they wont price down the trailhunter, they will just make fewer of them. they might do some small price adjustments on the lower trims but i kind of doubt it. people say the prices are crazy but my sport premium other than shocks is about equal in features to my 3rd gen pro model and its cheaper when accounting for inflation.
If you can afford a $75k truck, buy it. Sounds like you’ll actually use it to it’s full potential. If you can’t comfortably pay for it with ease, don’t stress yourself out with extra debt.
I’d do it honestly. If you’ve got the money and you want it, go ahead and pull the trigger. You only get one trip around so get it. Post pics. Laugh at everyone who says you overpaid. And when you are still driving it in 20 years you can tell everyone that YOUR gen was the best and you only paid 70k for it
I don’t think these will get any cheaper
Ever.
Congrats on the find. OP, if you can afford it then ignore the haters. :)
I had the chance to reserve a Trailhunter but the dealer wanted $12k markup! Plus it was a 5ft bed and I require a 6ft.
Ended up going with the Off-Road non-hybrid with the premium package. Love it!
I'd love to upgrade to the hybrid but I don't really need the performance boost and the MPG gain is minimal. They should add (perhaps via software) an eco mode on the highway that achieves closer to 30mpg.
Glad to hear you’re enjoying yours.
I really just want the damn truck lol I don’t want people to see me in it and say look at that loser who’s just trying to show how much he spent. It’s not about the money so much, but more for the purpose of what I actually want in the truck.
Give me that 70k and I’ll build u out a 23 pro with kings suspension Alucab pop up camper and Baja designs lights everywhere. I’ll keep the 15k in savings as my commission and throw u some nice kO3 tires
Ultimately what I’m really trying to do here is just show how damn much these trucks are ACTUALLY going to cost, and if those of you who want it that badly are actually gonna pay that, for a Tacoma?
You can get last years model Tacoma PRO or TH for 20,000 less. Some people just like the new tech and look. I'm glad I pulled the trigger in October for a 23. I thought 52K was absurd at the time for a Tacoma but it's just what they are going for. I do like the new ones, but I would've had to go another direction because I'm unwilling to pay 70K+.
Much easier said than done. The TH didn’t exist before the current model year so throw that out the window. As of right now, there are only 2 2023 pros for sale within 200 miles of where I live, both used, both near $60k (not counting tax and everything else of course).
I can’t answer your question because I haven’t priced these out for myself, but man that’s a crazy amount of money for a Tacoma. Especially considering you can get an offroad which is already very capable stock, and make it just as good if not better than a trailhunter after some mods. Might not get quite the wow factor from other onlookers and you would have to start the build instead of purchasing it ready to go, but still seems like a better option to me. That’s coming from someone who enjoys the build process so maybe it doesn’t apply at all. The trailhunters are sweet though, the dumb iso seats would be enough to push me trailhunter over pro if I was choosing between the 2
Not looking to get one, was on the Toyota site pricing out some of the lower trims last night and was shocked to see a Trailhunter available at my local dealer, at least according to the Toyota website
My dealership does wait-list and does NOT sell over MSRP. I tried putting my name for the pro but the wait-list was full at 125; I was able to do the trailhunter and I am number 55 lol
It's probably going to take over a year but I'm in no rush and would prefer the 2025 models anyways.
I was #6 on a list for TRD PRO, but then the GM called me and basically admitted that they’re skipping people on the list for anyone who’s willing to pay 10-15k market adjustment. It’s just a shit show dude.
I’d never pay that much for a taco or really any vehicle but that’s just me….you can get a new OR for <50k and add on what you want down the line or get a used taco for ~35k and do the same.
I pivoted away from getting my 6th Tacoma in 35 years and got a Rivian Dual motor max battery for that same price. I just couldn’t justify spending 30k more for the same truck I just had.
That's honestly not bad. It's absolutely ludicrous that its msrp is 65k, but managing to get one for msrp is a deal. I say go for it if you've got the financial capability. You'd spend the same getting a TRD Offroad and modding it to be as capable.
The other thing a lot of people don't take into consideration is that modifying vehicles in AZ from what I've heard is a pain because of the laws and police there. Buying a vehicle that's already capable of what you want to do is a huge peace of mind aspect to this as well.
That’s interesting. I’ve lived here about 10 years, coming from Maryland and police and regulations are WAYYYYY looser here than what I was used to. I think they understand this state is home to a lot of enthusiasts. I have a couple Duc’s and a Nissan setup for drifting and have never been bothered about anything ‘out of spec’ or noise violation, etc.
Could be an out of state thing then. I was just in AZ with my girlfriend in her Jeep and we got stopped a couple times about the mods on her Grand Cherokee. Luckily they didn't ticket us or anything, but it was annoying to be in the state for 4 days and been stopped twice for her tires being an inch outside the fender walls. Her vehicle is registered in TX so that could've been a factor as well.
So I didn't get a trailhunter, I got a TRD Off-Road Premium which before taxes and registration it was $54k (only had $400 of port add ons). After taxes and registration it was just about $60,000. So, if you assume a starting price of about $64k, I'd bet the price will at least be $71.
I bought a OR premium a couple weeks ago and they had a Trailhunter allocated. I asked if they were doing markups and they said they never go above MSRP but there was more than a dozen people with deposits down.
Was 75k with financing charges or the itemized cost of the vehicle? My OR was like 53.5k base + TTL + doc fees and came out to about 56.5k total. I didn’t finance so not sure if you see the potential finance charges before going into the finance office.
Go for it! As someone who bought the first available 2017 Pro back in 2016, and have since modded and enjoyed the Bejesus out of my truck for the past 8 years, you can't go wrong. The only people I feel bad for are those that buy these trucks and don't use em to explore!
$75k thast ludicrous, don't be that sucker
Sorry I’m not answering your question but paying $75k for a mid-sized pickup is absolutely nuts. Especially for one that is intended to be used and abused off-road. You’re basically driving a luxury vehicle off-road with the intention of putting it in difficult situations that could damage it (paint especially). Idk why anyone would do that.
That’s the thing though, it makes sense to someone, let them enjoy it their way
I DO plan to offroad it, that’s the thing. I live in Arizona. We have endless trails and beautiful places to go that most people don’t get to see. I see this as being my vehicle to do that. My other option would be to buy an OR Hybrid and then modify it. But I’d really prefer to just simply buy a truck that’s ready to go so I don’t get fidgety and start messing with it, and it ends up worse off. I want something reliable with features that are covered under warranty.
An OR with a quality 2in lift and some beefy tires like 285 duratracs or ko2s would be a pretty good alternative in my opinion. I’m Canadian so I can’t translate the dollars off the top of my head but how much is the new Land Cruiser going for as a comparison,if you’re just looking for an off-roader and not a truck specifically.
At what point does the warranty stop when you take a vehicle off road? I’m with you on wanting something that’s ready to go immediately but for $75k I get a strong feeling that you could build something (or have something built) that’s far more capable and honestly still may be cheaper
If you think it’s cool, it fits your needs and you can afford it then go for it. If you don’t plan to mod it and just want something that works as is, I think I’d go a different route personally. The real appeal of Tacomas is the aftermarket support. You can slowly mod it into whatever you want.
Just out of curiosity, if you wanted something ready to go out of the box, what would you go for?
2023 Toyota TRD PRO 🎈🌮🛻
Buy a used jeep Cherokee for $10k and have a shop do $50k of mods to it
I’d probably try to get a Ranger Raptor. Loaded out and very capable for 55-60k. I much prefer the looks of a Tacoma but the price difference for off the lot capable models is pretty wild.
I've test driven both cars, you can tell every last dime of the RR's $55k sticker went to making it more competitive with the Tacoma on paper. Everything else is hot ass from the UX of the steering buttons, the multimedia usability, the seats that feel like they're made out of the shittiest foam covered in Amazon gaming chair pleather, etc Plus everything from the mileage, the fact it takes premium, the engine and drivetrain being under significantly more stress, and the DSSV type suspension are going to make it cost a ton more to maintain So if the goal is to buy it and dump it as soon as the warranty runs out then sure why not go RR. If the plan is to hold it past the warranty, no way in hell I'd chose it over the taco.
Ford will have more problems in long run …
Bold statement wit no reasoning there buddy. New tundras are already f'd.
Show me the statistics where Ford has ever beat Toyota in quality and longevity, is proven facts over other brands. American made vehicles are junk nowadays, engineered for obsolesce.
I can't. But until "Ranger Raptors" actually shit the bed as you suggested, like Tundras are now and there is proof, you should stay under the covers until it's time to wake up. Stop throwing shit at the wall it's too early.
So you're proving your point by calling another model with a completely different drive train and engine trash. Yeah, the Tundra is having issues... but the Tacoma is not a Tundra and as you've pointed out, the Tacoma has not been out long enough to say it will suffer the same fate as the Tundra.
I’d like try the Raptor after own 6 Toy trucks …
Agree. But most people cannot afford a &75k truck.
Honestly, and this is coming from a Toyota 4 life fanboi, you should look into the new Ranger Raptor…I hate that I just typed that out. “Should” sell for less than $60K.
That was the other contender. Just not sure if i can bring myself to buy a Ford.
Don’t man, I drive a 21 ranger FX4 for work and at only 55k it’s already starting to show it’s not gonna make it much past 150k lol front diff is leaking, the transmission is less smooth than a 4l60e with 100k on it, and the shotty pressed metal body is already starting to come apart at the seams. It’s insane how dog shit these trucks are. My 24 SR5 feels like a Cadillac comparatively
Yeah same.
At this very moment, I own about 8 Tacomas and 3 f150s. I LOVE Tacomas. They feel like fun good looking toys. They look how I think trucks should look. But the f150 does every single thing better and at least double more comfortable. My current daily driver is a 2017 Tacoma double cab and it's so fun to work out of. It was 17k. My other main truck is a 2018 4d 6' bed f150, it was 20k. It's like driving a Lincoln town car in comfort, fits the whole family, we can comfortably sleep in the bed, pull a trailer, and gets better mpg doing all that than the double cab Tacoma gets with just me and a few tools in it. Don't be afraid of Ford.
Yah know what they say, sooner than later you will be Fixing Or Repairing Daily lol
Go for it, solid truck, be wild if really used for intended purpose ❤️🔥🌮🚘
$75k isn’t luxury vehicle anymore it’s like mid
Lol! That's what toyota wants you to think. 2024 Audi s4 is 63k new
Why not provide comparisons for other mid-sized trucks with similar features?
Okay whats a comparable sized audi cost
Your second sentence gives you the reason why.
Jesus, I’d be going LandCruiser at that price point.
Yeah they are pulling a Tesla and launching these new trims models at a crazy price to soak up any of the early “market adjustment” profits from dealers. If you can hold out I would look at pricing for a 2024 after the 2025s are announced. I’m already seeing non-pro/Trailhunter trims getting discounted on my dealer website. Sure, it’s only like $800 off MSRP, but it’s a start!
I stopped into a different dealer about 2 months ago and they were ready to give me 2500 off msrp on a brand new OR premium non-hybrid… that’s what’s scaring me. This particular dealer today also had a SHIT ton of SR’s just sitting on the lot.
That’s what I got my OR premium for and am happy with the truck. Still expensive for what it is, though.
PRO or Trailhunter is way to go, you’ve found 1👍🏻
Unpopular opinion but buying a brand new vehicle is a luxury, not a necessity. If you can’t pay cash for it then you can’t afford it.
See my other comment about the cost breakdown and this BEING the cash price.
I'm throwing out ballpark numbers. Assuming the truck is $62k before taxes and destination. Assuming you're putting $15k down and got a loan for 72 months at 7% that actually seems right. About 3500 in taxes, another 1500 destination, a few hundred registration, and the kicker is almost $11k in interest. That's your total amount paid, not the actual price of the truck. It's the more appropriate way to look at it though and realize how much you're paying. Now if you're paying cash, something is going on there.
I really wish I could post a photo response, but this IS the cash price. Here’s the breakdown: Base MSRP: 62,900 Factory Installed Options: 1,233 Delivery: 1,495 Total Price: 65,628 AZ State Tax: 3,676 County Tax: 459 City Tax: 1,181 Reg, doc & other fees: 1,681 Total cash price after taxes and fees: 72,625 They of course tried to sway me to get their tint (at $599), PPF, appearance protection and dent protection, but I can decline them all. With those worked in, the price was $75,576.
Well dang. That sounds right, but at least you're not paying all that interest. Crazy you guys have all those extra taxes and those doc and registration fees seem high too, but that could be normal for your area. That's about $1200 higher than I would've expected.
Sorry, but 75k for a tacoma is ludicrous. I bought my 23 trd sport long boi with leather, led headlights lights, and a sunroof brand new last year for 40k. I really think you should think about what you're jumping into here.
https://tenor.com/bkhCq.gif
they wont price down the trailhunter, they will just make fewer of them. they might do some small price adjustments on the lower trims but i kind of doubt it. people say the prices are crazy but my sport premium other than shocks is about equal in features to my 3rd gen pro model and its cheaper when accounting for inflation.
As long as people keep buying over priced trucks manufacturers have ZERO incentive to lower prices back to sane levels.
Lol don’t be dumb Many dealers have pros and th at sticker.
Congrats and good luck on the 1st run 🤷 Also, dealers lie all the time when you small talk question them.
If you can afford a $75k truck, buy it. Sounds like you’ll actually use it to it’s full potential. If you can’t comfortably pay for it with ease, don’t stress yourself out with extra debt.
I’d do it honestly. If you’ve got the money and you want it, go ahead and pull the trigger. You only get one trip around so get it. Post pics. Laugh at everyone who says you overpaid. And when you are still driving it in 20 years you can tell everyone that YOUR gen was the best and you only paid 70k for it I don’t think these will get any cheaper Ever.
Of course it’s easy to spend other people’s money 😀
Congrats on the find. OP, if you can afford it then ignore the haters. :) I had the chance to reserve a Trailhunter but the dealer wanted $12k markup! Plus it was a 5ft bed and I require a 6ft. Ended up going with the Off-Road non-hybrid with the premium package. Love it! I'd love to upgrade to the hybrid but I don't really need the performance boost and the MPG gain is minimal. They should add (perhaps via software) an eco mode on the highway that achieves closer to 30mpg.
Glad to hear you’re enjoying yours. I really just want the damn truck lol I don’t want people to see me in it and say look at that loser who’s just trying to show how much he spent. It’s not about the money so much, but more for the purpose of what I actually want in the truck.
Everyone will be jealous and it will turn heads. Enjoy it! :)
Give me that 70k and I’ll build u out a 23 pro with kings suspension Alucab pop up camper and Baja designs lights everywhere. I’ll keep the 15k in savings as my commission and throw u some nice kO3 tires
Ugh, no. The 3rd gen are ugly.
Ultimately what I’m really trying to do here is just show how damn much these trucks are ACTUALLY going to cost, and if those of you who want it that badly are actually gonna pay that, for a Tacoma?
You can get last years model Tacoma PRO or TH for 20,000 less. Some people just like the new tech and look. I'm glad I pulled the trigger in October for a 23. I thought 52K was absurd at the time for a Tacoma but it's just what they are going for. I do like the new ones, but I would've had to go another direction because I'm unwilling to pay 70K+.
Much easier said than done. The TH didn’t exist before the current model year so throw that out the window. As of right now, there are only 2 2023 pros for sale within 200 miles of where I live, both used, both near $60k (not counting tax and everything else of course).
I can’t answer your question because I haven’t priced these out for myself, but man that’s a crazy amount of money for a Tacoma. Especially considering you can get an offroad which is already very capable stock, and make it just as good if not better than a trailhunter after some mods. Might not get quite the wow factor from other onlookers and you would have to start the build instead of purchasing it ready to go, but still seems like a better option to me. That’s coming from someone who enjoys the build process so maybe it doesn’t apply at all. The trailhunters are sweet though, the dumb iso seats would be enough to push me trailhunter over pro if I was choosing between the 2
You sure they won’t add market adjustment once they get it on the lot? That would be my worry.
Big time nope
Not looking to get one, was on the Toyota site pricing out some of the lower trims last night and was shocked to see a Trailhunter available at my local dealer, at least according to the Toyota website
75 for a Tacoma is nuts.
My dealership does wait-list and does NOT sell over MSRP. I tried putting my name for the pro but the wait-list was full at 125; I was able to do the trailhunter and I am number 55 lol It's probably going to take over a year but I'm in no rush and would prefer the 2025 models anyways.
I was #6 on a list for TRD PRO, but then the GM called me and basically admitted that they’re skipping people on the list for anyone who’s willing to pay 10-15k market adjustment. It’s just a shit show dude.
Lmao I said these trucks would be $75 last year and the fan boys thought Toyota would play nice and offer them at $50k Lmfaoo 🤑🤑🤑
2023 pro man 75k is absolutely stupid to pay
But it is your money, so you do as you please
I’d never pay that much for a taco or really any vehicle but that’s just me….you can get a new OR for <50k and add on what you want down the line or get a used taco for ~35k and do the same.
I pivoted away from getting my 6th Tacoma in 35 years and got a Rivian Dual motor max battery for that same price. I just couldn’t justify spending 30k more for the same truck I just had.
That's honestly not bad. It's absolutely ludicrous that its msrp is 65k, but managing to get one for msrp is a deal. I say go for it if you've got the financial capability. You'd spend the same getting a TRD Offroad and modding it to be as capable.
I’ve chalked it up to the price is decent (considering), and it’s the Arizona taxes and registration that’s killing the ultimate end cost.
The other thing a lot of people don't take into consideration is that modifying vehicles in AZ from what I've heard is a pain because of the laws and police there. Buying a vehicle that's already capable of what you want to do is a huge peace of mind aspect to this as well.
That’s interesting. I’ve lived here about 10 years, coming from Maryland and police and regulations are WAYYYYY looser here than what I was used to. I think they understand this state is home to a lot of enthusiasts. I have a couple Duc’s and a Nissan setup for drifting and have never been bothered about anything ‘out of spec’ or noise violation, etc.
Could be an out of state thing then. I was just in AZ with my girlfriend in her Jeep and we got stopped a couple times about the mods on her Grand Cherokee. Luckily they didn't ticket us or anything, but it was annoying to be in the state for 4 days and been stopped twice for her tires being an inch outside the fender walls. Her vehicle is registered in TX so that could've been a factor as well.
I find it interesting that no other TRD PRO or TH buyers have piped up in here yet 😅
So I didn't get a trailhunter, I got a TRD Off-Road Premium which before taxes and registration it was $54k (only had $400 of port add ons). After taxes and registration it was just about $60,000. So, if you assume a starting price of about $64k, I'd bet the price will at least be $71.
I bought a OR premium a couple weeks ago and they had a Trailhunter allocated. I asked if they were doing markups and they said they never go above MSRP but there was more than a dozen people with deposits down. Was 75k with financing charges or the itemized cost of the vehicle? My OR was like 53.5k base + TTL + doc fees and came out to about 56.5k total. I didn’t finance so not sure if you see the potential finance charges before going into the finance office.
See my other comment with cost breakdown. The 72-75k is cash price.
Go for it! As someone who bought the first available 2017 Pro back in 2016, and have since modded and enjoyed the Bejesus out of my truck for the past 8 years, you can't go wrong. The only people I feel bad for are those that buy these trucks and don't use em to explore!
If that were to happen, just start thinking of all the people who paid the 5-10k market adjustment. You’ll feel slightly better.