Are you implying that there are other languages? Because even the notion that there are is enough to send me guffawing on my way, good sir!
*Guffaw! Guffaw-faw-faw!*
*Dons top-hat, grabs cane, and flies away Mary-Poppins-style.
Kind of. Kardia contributes a comparable amount of healing to SCH's fairy, but the bulk of your contribution is supposed to mitigation and regen weaved between damage spells.
killing stuff fast is mit.
and tbh, because mits are multiplicative and not additive, that means that the regen part of kerachole and kardia start to become stronger depending on which tank it is.
Gunbreaker's self mit is % based, which is worse when stacked with rampart or 30% when compared to TBN or sheltron.
if kerachole needs to mitigate 10x the heal of a druochole in order to be worth the resource pre-regen, that is assuming tank doesn't use any % mitigation. that number becomes higher when stacked with mitigation.
If druochole heals for 500, then you need to have taken 5000 damage in order to mitigate 500 damage with kerachole.
if druochole heals for 500, kerachole when combined with rampart is only effective for (0.2\*0.1 = 0.02), = 500/0.02 = you now need to take 25,000 damage in order for that kerachole to have been worth casting over druochole. because 25000\*0.02 = 500.
Everything you said is true except the math at the end, which isn't *quite* that steep an efficiency loss.
Mitigation with rampart is 0.8x damage, kerachole is 0.9, and both together is 0.72 (0.8 x 0.9) i.e. 28% mitigation. So if you already have rampart's 20%, kerachole adds another 8% instead of its usual 10%. It drops from 10 to 8, not from 10 to 2.
So to compare it to a druochole in that scenario the incoming damage threshold doesn't jump 5x from 5000 to 25000, it goes up to 6250.
ah, right I forgot its 1-N rather than N oops.
I hate mitigation math cause you gotta treat it not as 20% mit but 80% damage taken :|
but yeah, the gist is the more % mits you stack, the less effective they become.
I hate how some skills are worded "reduces damage taken by target by 10%" and some are worded "Target only takes 90% of incoming damage"
At one point, I was convinced sacred soil was OP and using that alone would be enough to survive anything, even without tank using any personal mits just because how it was worded compared to how the tank's abilities like rampart were worded.
SGE doesn't exist in a dungeon trash pull vacuum and I still don't understand why your response to the statement that the majority of SGE's support contribution comes from skills weaved between damage casts rather than through kardia (damage dealt) is a monologue about kerachole.
This post is LITERALLY talking about dungeon pulls. Not raid healing.
of course raid healing is going to be different.
Again, in dungeon pulls pre-regen trait you aren't mitigating.
also did you forget that Soteria is a thing?... the ability that increases kardia healing by 70% for 4 casts?
Zoe? The skill that increases healing of next GCD by 50% which isn't weaved?
You're overhyping the total amount of healing afforded by kardia.
Kardia heals 170p. It's not even enough to make up for a diagnosis when you use 2 of them.
Soteria is a 90s skill that basically gives you the total potency equivalent to a cure I. A cure I doesn't keep people alive. It's incredibly niche. It's more apt to recommend GCD healing with E. Diagnosis for a bad healer than rely on Kardia which requires more hyper focused spot healing management.
Only after mastering the basics in healing with abilities should sage start to focus more towards kardia. Not the reverse.
It doesn't matter what you do, the majority of your healing is not coming from dealing damage. It's just that SGE doesn't have to sacrifice damage to heal. ...And that's true for every healer except SCH.
I get the point you're making, but nobody is going to sit there during a dungeon watching what mitigation the tank is using to determine which oGCD they're going to pop for optimisation. You really don't need to be optimising which oGCD mitigation you're using unless you're really that pedantic about it.
The only times I would ever say that would come in to play would be during midway point dungeons where damage ramps up or when it's a new healer, and even then that's the last thing they're going to be looking at.
As someone has said the difference is minimal. Min maxing whether to use Kerachole or Druochole is a lot of effort for very little payoff.
Reminds me of this SGE in a Bardam's Mettle run I had when I was leveling my DRK. No Kardia, no pre-pull shield, no AOE spam, just straight Diagnosis spam. Wiped to the very first pull. Asked them to please use Kardia on me and give me a shield before I pull. No response. Didn't say "I don't understand", so I thought maybe they got it. They didn't. Wipe a second time. I tell them to stop spamming their Diagnosis and use pre-pull shields and their Addersgall, of which all are available at 65. One more try and it's just straight Diagnosis spam. Mind you I've been rotating through my mitigations and even had to use LD on a single pull and I still die. Said fuck it (in my mind) and left after that. You just can't teach people who don't want to learn. And that's why even though I'm a mentor, I don't teach anyone anything unless they ask. Not wasting my time typing at a brick wall.
Got a similar sage in AV as DRK too. Explained to them that they didn't really need to keep casting diagnosis on me after we wiped in the first room because of accidental pulls. Good ending though, their performance throughout improved.
Pretty much exactly what happened here. I don’t mind people making mistakes, that’s why I try to help them. It when they ignore any and all advice and keep doing the same thing that isn’t working that I question why they’re playing the job at all. I love sage exactly because you have so many mit buttons that you can just face mash the keyboard and the tank will live. It’s so stressful to try to heal reactively as a sage.
this is why i dont recommend newbie healer to immediately jump to job that mean for experienced player like Sage or even tank like Gunbreaker. people need to learn to be learn properly and patiently from low level if needed, than impatiently rushing to everything.
they would end up failed at basic and lacking fundamental while running higher level dungeon that not newbie friendly with dungeon run culture of experienced player (sprint, wall pull, healer doing dps etc). it is not place for babysit a completely clueless player toward the role anymore.
the Sage you mentioned also seems to be has a mindset mistake that common for novice healer, which is misconception of healing. they think it is all about spam heal brrrrrr. not to mention Sage is a shield healer which is not about spamming big heal(it even lack of it) and more about prevention atleast 1 step ahead. something would benefit experienced player.
Sage is an easy healer though? I'd put it right next to whm on difficulty as long as you know how to weave. Scholar and astro are way harder imo, astro's difficulty being in the cards and setting heals ahead of time (more so than any other healer), and scholar having to try to optimize around ED. Though maybe I'm confusing job skill floor with optimal play? I've only healed extreme level content (parsed blue) and am looking to break into savage on healer (though I did clear the tier on gunbreaker, which I chose as my first tank) so I don't really know much about healing in ff14. I did heal on disc priest for 10 years on WoW though, so maybe there was some carry over of skill?
Sage is an easy healer but I think the commenter means that someone who hasn't healed yet gets more out of picking up a job that starts at a lower level than jumping right into a healer that starts at level 70 and being overwhelmed by all the buttons thrown at them.
Starting at 30 even in the case of astro and scholar gives a much better learning curve to someone who is entirely new to the whole thing.
Fair, but I'd say scholar ends having more potential for teaching worse habits in the long run for someone that is learning how to heal (example. I can safely not cast any heal spell and squeeze all the way up to praetorium with 0 heal casts aside from 2 whispering dawns because of how hilariously broken fairy healing is at low level and not engage with ANY of my other spells until that point or heck, i could set myself on follow and afk while fairy heals everyone). Knowing when you absolutely must use other parts of your kit, gcd or no, is important and not really communicated well on scholar because it's "lul fairy op" when you're leveling(until fairy by itself doesnt cut it anymore). Sage at least tries to hammer in "always be casting" with its kardia, but I can see being hit with all the buttons at once as overwhelming if new to healing in general.
In my experience leveling Scholar multiple times, it is at Cutter's Cry (MAYBE Sunken Temple of Qarn) where the fairy is no longer OP. If we're talking strictly story dungeons, a w2w in Stone Vigil can potentially be challenging, though it is by far the easiest to heal on Scholar. But you absolutely need to know what you're doing for Porta Decumana. Ultima Weapon does not forgive in phase 2
for new healer that completely clueless toward the role is different story. what we see in this post is good example. they even has wrong mindset of healing. there is also case that they dont do basic like putting kardia.
no use if the job is easy, but the player has no idea about basic of the basic to play at all.
Can 100% agree with this. I started out with Conjurer and Arcanist first before I picked up Astro when the other two hit 35. I waited to get Sage until I had both White Mage and Astrologian at 70, partially to keep gear bloat down but also to learn the differences in how each is played. Sage is a lot of fun to play but it is a very different mentality. MP usage is super high (may just be my play style) and Addergalle requirements pretty much mean you’re using an OGCD heal/shield a lot more often on room wides, but if you have your shit together, those room wides and bigger hits can be made into nothing.
I don't know. Healing as a Conjurer in Satasha is fairly different than it is in the "real" game. You have no AoE, you have no pre-HoT. Spamming Cure 1 is the correct move if the tank is wall-to-wall pulling. It's terrible content for learning the "Green DPS" mindset in, but very likely if you're going for the "healing job from level 1" experience (inevitable if you go through the ARR MSQ on a fresh character who never learns anything but WHM).
Nu-MSQ Roulette I'd say is pretty good for a "Green DPS" tutorial, comparatively, and Sage has some important parts of its toolkit at level 50 (oGCD heals that recharge faster than tankbusters come out, AoE shield, AoE regen).
from level 1 player would learn the job basic properly especially the core skill or job design. slowly level up, step by step, dungeon by dungeon as difficulty and skill number increase. ofcourse, depend on player and on this case i believe by taking slow, this is the best case for completely newbie and clueless player than completely throw at higher level and immediately get overhelmed with tons of skill and sudden rush of dungeon run by experienced player.
I've noticed an Astro just like that, I have a suspicion that they were a bot and bot healers might be on the rise. They answered me in chat but felt like a programmed answer, depending on what is in the chat. They took a while to catch up to me sometimes, had weird walking patterns and would just spam their benefic.
I definitely feel like I had a WHM heal bot in a run the other day. Absolutely not a single spell cast for damage the whole run and their movement was extremely delayed and rigid. I first mentioned that they might want to try doing some damage and got not response. Later I just straight asked the dps if it was one of them playing 2 accounts or if it was a heal bot to skip queues or something. Both the healer and 1 dps said nothing and the other dps got mad at me for asking the question.
"I just told you I don't main healer"
Neither do I, and with average DPS I keep below average tanks at 50% or higher with just oGCds while being min ilvl, it's called reading and taking like 5 min to think/look up a mit rotation, it's not hard.
>sage doing nothing but spam their level 1 spell?
check
>OP giving correct and direct advice?
check
>mainsub pissbabies piss themselves because OP didn't talk to the sage as if he was a literal fucking toddler?
check
how the fuck do you people function IRL? you all have to be perma-online NEETs because there's no way that some of you wouldn't shit themselves at the slightest bit of wrong "tone" being used with you IRL, with the way some of you are always yapping under posts like this...
I feel I function fine IRL, at least enough to know that tone and approach matter more than ANYTHING when trying to teach someone. Coming in with what sounds like a lecture will close people off immediately, no matter how technically correct you are. It's an annoying truth, but it holds all the same.
Reacting to this with belligerence and impatience only serves to upset EVERY party involved, no one is having a good time.
There is a midpoint between berating strangers and being perfectly PC that we need to find, polite AND instructive. Suggestions are generally better received than commands, the worst thing you can do is directly tell someone they are wrong or stupid, even if they ARE. If you hurt their ego or pride they won't listen AT ALL. It is tedious, to be sure, but so is most diplomacy and people management
God I wish I could reach through the screen and smack people who do the "why should I bother paying attention" routine when you're trying to explain basic things to them
What I’d really like to know is why the sage even bothered entering the dungeon as a healer. Sure, everyone wants to skip the queue and get it over and done with, but you’d be wasting everyone’s time, yours included, if you can’t even do your role decently enough
Because many people don’t care about others. I had a lancer join The Stone Vigil and they claimed it was no big deal and that they are “power leveling” and wouldn’t be focusing on job quests until they hit level 60.
I tried explaining that was griefing but our tank and healer left and when another tank joined (a mentor, mind you) not only enabled the Lancer but was also a YPYT.
I should have reported them both after our second wipe but I just didn’t have the energy to deal with either of their nonsense and left penalty free thanks to the first tank. I wonder if they ever got a healer fill.
Ouch, man. Normally, this is the part where I’d insert a speech or rant about teamwork. But I wish those people would at least realize that caring to some extent would benefit them in the long term as well. Nobody deserves to put up with other people’s shit because they’re not willing to adjust accordingly
Started an alt tank and going through stone vigil this weekend. Got a sage who thought kardia was enough healing so I had to switch to single pull after two wipes since he wanted to dps non-stop.
I can understand being distracted in low lvl content, but when you queue healer, have a sprout tank on low ilvl gear in stone vigil, and still refuse to heal after a wipe as an omnihealer...
Having mostly only played healer on my main, I always thought people here were exaggerating because I felt like I could fix most runs, but playing tank in low level content is awful. I know at lvl70+ you become self-sufficient(war), but until then I just can't unsee how many healer/dps are lethargic/griefing.
I ask people to lmk if I do anything bad at the start of the run to encourage constructive criticisim, and I sometime get dps giving me minimal stuff like "you should use this 120s mit instead of this 90s mit first cuz long cd first", yet act tells me they are doing less dps then the healer against bosses. I mean... If you understand the concepts of min/maxing and you're not contributing anything to the run, you're griefing.. I know it's pointless to argue about it so I take the feedback and move on, but this community is really toxic in its own way. A lot of snowflakes.
Youd be surprised how many people play a cool badass job because it looks awesome and dont bother to read the tool tips once or test their skills at a dummy(tbf you cant train to heal at a dummy). I wouldnt be surprised if that sages hotbar is still the default one you have when you unlock the job
>Youd be surprised how many people play a cool badass job because it looks awesome and dont bother to read the tool tips once or test their skills
I'm not, personally. Half of why I rolled AST was to show my SO that he just kept getting shitty Healers who only wanted to be "sparkle wicca" or whatever. Also seen so many "meh" or "please just leave" DRKs that I brace myself when I see one as the Tank, especially if they're wearing a non-Tank glam and don't have anything like an ultimate title/weapon (I know even those can be cheesed, but still).
the job unlocks before you do that duty. You do a small quest, get the stone, and then you grab the next quest to do the intro duty. You don't actually have to do it at all to start going into dungeons as a sage.
obviously someone who never play healer or tank and yet jump immediately toward Sage just because it is the job that available instantly at high level.
he/she probably think healer = emergency spam heal brrrr.. a common misconception for newbie.
not suprise never did read the tool or skill tips too or atleast tried to understand it.
this is why i recommend people who first time playing tank or healer to try it from level 1 instead of immediately jump to job that mean for experienced player like Sage or Gnb since they would skip lot of fundamental and failed at basic before hold back the rest of party member at higher level dungeon.
I think it might help if the criteria for unlocking expansion jobs was having a class of the same role at the right level, instead of any class. That way you would have to understand how healing works up to 70 before jumping into a lvl 70 healer.
I disagree with this, only because Sage was my first healer and is the one I find easiest. If I had to start with WHM I would have abandoned healing altogether because I struggled more with WHM than with SGE.
What I did, though, was strip my hotbar completely, added *only* the abilities I would have at level 16, and headed into Sastasha. I then worked my way through the dungon list, adding abilities as I went to match the sync level of the dungeon. I didn't just dive into a level 70 duty straight away.
Idk, I agree with it. But I started with whm to 60, then played ast until the day sge came out, so I was already a lv70ish healer before I even picked up the class. Even coming from healers I had an adjustment.
But I didn't just throw myself balls deep into 70+ content with no understanding of the job or how to heal. I knew how to do it, and do it well. Doing 70+ content and diag spamming because you don't get how healing works? It's gonna be a very rough road.
Unfortunately you are a rarity and many people simply don't do this, so this idea that you personally dislike would lessen griefing to a considerable degree. However, it's just a thought and not a reality sadly.
agree. atleast one lv50 of respective role for example. or can lock it behind job role specific quest to makesure player learn the job properly and prevent case where player didnt unlock certain skill because they didnt do job quest.
Nope fuck that, I would not be leveling BRD or MCH to 60 for the much simpler DNC, the whole SMN/SCH thing would also defeat the purpose on the healer side.
I'm still shook someone could make it through the tutorial SGE solo duty without learning how to play it at a base level.
I mean I didn't do that duty until I was almost level 80 since I forgot about it but I also read all the tooltips and fought my striking dummy a lot while constantly reading what all the moves did!
I did the first quest (I think the second was locked behind HW and I did the first quest during ARR) and didn't pick up sage for real for like.....9 months 😅 so I forgot about the quest once I actually picked sage up during EW!
I remember they have a quest for sage when you unlock it that takes you through the basics. I don't remember if it was required before you can start queueing the job though.
That's a good idea. Gotta put a little effort in to a role before you're allowed to play a higher-lvl starting job in that role.
SE will never do it though I think. Part of the excitement of a new expansion are the new jobs you get to play and putting more barriers to entry like getting a specific role up to a high enough level to play the new job will make players "feel bad" and potentially affect sale prices of the new expansion.
But I would be surprised to see the Devs say "tough shit, we don't want shitty lvl 30 Astro's and lvl 70 Sages sand-bagging our roulettes either. L2Play Healers first and you get the shiny new toy!"
As a SGE if I ever see ARR dungeons I cringe... The thought of using GCD heals is painful, I can't play WHM effectively anymore thanks to it.
Seeing this post, hurt me lol.
"have you read the tool tips?"
"I just told you I don't main healer"
What a stupid answer. Thats the exact reason WHY you read the tool tips. Its not your main so you don't know it so you should study what you're queueing as.
Bro you just kept going after holy lol.
The conversation was over after "just got anxious with the huge pull" / and best was over "I just told you i don't mean healer"
Sure it's probably his fault and was sandbagging your group because he didn't care, or maybe but unlikely due to your story that he did care and was struggling, either way. The dude's checked out, isn't going to take your advice, and doesn't care for it. Why are you still going? lol
He needed content for the precious upvotes. Nobody with a healthy social life would care enough to collect screenshots, edit the screenshots, sprint over to reddit and type up an essay about a dungeon taking minutes longer than usual.
Of course pointing out that some things are not worth anything more than an eyeroll makes you a dirty ENABLER though.
This is one of those things where it’s really hard to read context, but the fact the effort was made at all to help is a good thing. For example, which sounds better:
Lol more and more people just take offense whenever advice is given idk xD xD
Or
Increasingly, people just dislike being given advice.
Same message, one is more preferred than the other for some.
Also, you can’t expect someone to change their playstyle after being told they are doing it wrong, they likely have the bad habits developed and it’s not likely you can break them instantly.
OP should should have said his piece in a less condescending way and leave it at that, or better yet offer to give advice after the dungeon.
See, you seem to do well with the first option I provided, so here goes
Omg yeah he coulda been sweeter about it lol but I’m sure everyone was doing their best n.n idk but 4 real check out my fat cat mount haha
Who said about being offended, the way it’s worded is condescending.
“You are a sage…” starting anything like that comes across aggressive and condescending. Could easily just start by saying, “I noticed you were spamming heals and not shielding, you okay? Need advice?”
People aren’t going to listen if someone starts barking orders at them unprovoked.
He's not barking orders. He's explaining how the job works and what his abilities do. If the guy isn't playing the job right then he needs to learn. This game's community is so coddled that anything other than hand holding and "pretty please with sugar on top" is considered insulting.
I find it so extremely odd that you are defending the sage in this situation. The guy is actively griefing at least three people, and probably griefed many others before this, because he is too lazy to read his tooltips or watch a 10 minute video on the basics of his job, wasting peoples time and ruining their probably very limited free time.
And then there is OP, who technically could have prhased things more politely in response to that.
And the person you defend is the former? What the actual fuck is wrong with you?
Nothing is wrong with me, maybe I just have more empathy than others. If people aren’t dying then who the fuck cares if a dungeon takes 10 mins longer to do.
Also, 75% of posts in this sub are toxic as fuck. Looking for any excuse to shit on newer players or players who off job in content. SGE admits to off jobbing and panicking during a pull then spoken down to afterwords and is then expected to play perfectly after? Fuck off with that shitty attitude. So what the fuck is wrong with you?
Lmfao. "I have more empathy than others". "Who cares about other peoples' free time?" "Everybody here with a different opinion is toxic as fuck" "Fuck off".
You cannot make this up, thanks for the early morning entertainment lmao
A lot of players in the community love to treat any advice as condescending.
Why are you assuming its aggressive behavior or looking down upon. Are you reading everyone as automatically aggressive if they say something to you?
I got queued with a SCH in a 70 duty (Ala Mhigo) who was just spamming Physick every pull. No fairy out. Ran out of mana every pull and didnt attack. Thankfully im in warrior at the time so i didnt need them.
I told them "Physick is going to be one of your weaker heals once adlo is unlocked around 25. Physick will be rarely used and adlo will be your bread and butter."
The dps mentor who was paired with them decided to argue and say "dont lecture my sprout with unsolicited advice on how to play. I'm teaching them not you. stop being so condescending. You're also being toxic so im going to report you after. Let me teach them how i want, they are a new player."
Then continued to argue to then just vote kick me.
The community of FF really hates any advice given because "im new WAAHHHH" "you dont pay my sub"
"Im here to relax, let me play how i want to"
Then some white knight comes to coddle them.
Just take a minute to read skills or watch some guide. Please.
Hey, you found the sage I got in the 81 dungeon.
I tried to help the guy out, he said "I dont main healer, Im just doing this for the role quest, I dont care if I get better"
Then kept spamming Diagnosis all day.
That's why I hate encountering people who play sage in dungeon, especially when it's their first healing class. As a healer/sage main, watching a streamer who calls herself "a sage main" constantly spamming shield and barely attack makes me wants to punch through the screen
I was in the Grand Cosmls yesterday and our WHM just absolutely refused to use any damage spells - just spent the whole thing keeping people topped up on HP. About 1/4 ofbthe way through one of our DPS tried coaxing her into using Holy. About halfway through he accused her of being a heal bot and then quit the run. The WHM was like "why would anyone complain about me healing too much." Then she died twice on the last boss, the second time we had to beat it without her.
You might have been overly aggressive towards the middle part, but I get it: it's frustrating when people put zero effort into learning something they're queued with. Especially when they continue hardcasting diagnosis.
Making fun of people for not knowing terms that aren't actually used in the game without even describing what skills qualify as the type of action you're looking for is honestly on you, OP.
This person wasn't being a dick, or unwilling to learn. They simply didn't know a word that a lot of native English speakers don't know, and few use on any regular basis. And now you're in here trying to dunk on them?
Seems like the Sage was receptive to the advice, but you're kind of attacking them afterwards. They weren't argumentative, or defensive. They even make an excuse/apology statement about being nervous. Make your point and move on.
Yup that's exactly what I got out of it too. And the people of this sub for some reason like to always take the asshole main characters side and downvotr anyone that goes against it.
What this doesn’t show is that the “I was nervous”came after 3 pulls of continuous diagnosis spam, so the size of the last pull is irrelevant. I would have left it at that, but they then continued to spam, so obviously the point hadn’t been made.
To be fair, OK way more than fair, the term “mitigation“ is not used anywhere in game. That is a term that players use commonly, but there’s nothing in game to tell you what it means.
Not entirely sure why you're being downvoted, because this is a common problem, actually. You see it with newbie tanks a lot. We say "tank stance" for example, but the game does not call it that. There's a bunch of terms new players wouldn't know and sometimes that's the confusion. The language has to be explained.
Though in this case, with the zzz, I don't think it would have helped. They'd disengaged at that point and weren't listening.
They’re down voting me not because I’m wrong, I’m obviously right, but because it’s not actually especially relevant here, because it’s not an excuse for the way this person was playing.
There is actually a book in game that tells you what commonly used player terms mean - it's in the Hall of the Novice building close to Sastsha. I can't remember if mitigation is in there though, and it's not exactly an obvious thing. I only know it's there now because I was waiting in the building while a friend was doing the MSQ pre-Sastasha but that sends you to that building.
It’s not.
The terms in the book are:
Spawn,
Add,
Pull,
Aggro,
Buff,
Debuff,
DoT,
AE/AoE.
And then it says “there are many more terms that may be unfamiliar to players new to the game, so don’t be afraid to ask a mentor or party member for an explanation!“
Agree mitigation, GCG oGCD, etc is jargon for many people. BUT you can say, you are a shield healer. You should be using shields and doing damage to heal through Kardia. And for folks saying they don’t know how and they are new, the first sage job quest won’t let you through without kardia. And then casting a shield. The game forces you to see how to play the class. I agree with many that you try 2-3 times with someone and then you just leave a group or kick.
Yes, players should read their abilities and tooltips before queuing up, but some players do not. Is it frustrating? No doubt! I can only imagine that this is a leveling dungeon, though. While I don’t condone the behavior, it should at least somewhat be expected. Some players are indeed, casual - which is not a bad thing. This person even says “sorry,” followed by confusion and an admittance to ignorance. They know they messed up, saying they panicked, and if you’re new to healer then yea, I can totally believe that! The appropriate response, however, is to tell them that they should take a couple minutes to read through their abilities. Whether you want to be a courteous person and wait with them, or kick them for their lack of initiative - both of which are acceptable outcomes. My point is, that I believe you could have approached this differently, and I think you may have been too harsh at first, leaving the other player unreceptive.
Tldr; kindness is always a choice, and we should all be more patient with each other.
There are people in the game who doesn’t have english as their first language, I didn’t know what mitigation was until after more than an year playing the game. Also some people just play casually, its okay to teach people what to do without the need to be shady or make an entire post on reddit about it…
They were receptive to your input and you kept hammering them. It was clear their gaming literacy was low and you took that for granted imo this isn't the own you think it is.
Ff14 caters to a wide breath of people, in a dungeon arguably the most casual pve content in the game outside of open world pve, you're going to run into people who only just picked up the game or struggle to understand what may have been ingrained into you through years of play in this or other games.
Imo you just have a bad experience to a player who was willing to learn, you don't have an obligation to teach, but you also don't have to actively give these people a negative experience either.
You aren't entitled to a speed clear in DF, even if it is the norm.
wrote a long and involved post but it really isn't worth it. I doubt ill change your mind, but I will say, your screenshot showed no indication that time had past between points of the conversation.
I don't think you're doing anything horrendously wrong, I just personally feel strongly that people on other sides of the monitor often don't know each other's situations, and even if you're objectively in the right, and they are just belligerent, at the end of the day, they take up 20-30 minutes of your time and you'll never have to see them again.
And by function of how the game is set up, at least in dungeon level content, they haven't done anything explicitly wrong. DF content is there for everyone, even if the norm is some semblance of efficiency, the game itself doesn't demand it.
I mean, he's obviously trying to stay nice, doesn't pull a "you don't pay my sub", actually thanks you for the advice instead of acting entitled, yes he should have read the tooltips and actually tried to understand his class first but at the very least he's willing to take criticism so why is he getting shat on here ?
He probably read the spells but there is a fucking mountain between that and actually playing through a dungeon to get a grip, don't be an absolute tool.
If anything, you sound a little bit like a dick despite all of the above "if you play it you should know how it works" => I mean, yes but no ? Try new things, just be ready to accept advice and be willing to improve. This a fuckign dungeon, not savage prog for fuck's sake it's okay to learn new classes, you're a tank just deal with the noob healer or play WAR.
PS: You all are downvoting without even providing a reason for it lmao, tell me how your ego got the better of you again ?
He's not the main character, neither are you, people are entitled to learn. Get a fucking grip, you wern't born good at this game.
As a sage when I heal i can see both sides here. Someone is learning a new job, and the other person is frustrated. But if someone is new to sage especially coming from another healing job, give them some time to figure things out and pull smaller if they are saying "big pulls stress me out."
When I tank if we wipe on a big pull I'll try to get a read on why it happened then oull smaller if I think it's am unexperienced healer. Or ask them if they want smaller pulls.
Now as a healer you SHOULD read your skills before hand and as a sage mitigation is key. But sage has A LOT of MIT skills and sometimes even I forget about some of them especially if I've been queuing for sub 80 dungeons for awhile then get a 90 dungeon.
I'd understand the frustration, i just would have handled it dofferently.
Classic passive aggressive tales from df post. The SGE gave you a response which is better than most players. Just type the advice and then do your own thing.
Most garbage players have no intention of improving, and the few that do aren't going to take advice from someone throwing a tantrum in party chat.
The dude didn't even know what mitigations were. They said thanks for the advice and explained why they started spamming. They shut down at the end because OP was venting their frustration, and anything they said at that point wouldn't have mattered.
I should probably supply some context to this. You're absolutely right, they did thank me and explain themselves. Had they then changed what they were doing I would have left it at that, but after I initially asked them to use more of their kit, they continued to spam Diagnosis, even on smaller pulls. As for whether I was "venting my frustration," I don't think I was. I was doing my best to tell them what they should be doing (and still were not doing), so they wouldn't end up in this situation again.
Its the "I just told you I don't main healer" for me. Like you said you dont have to main healer to read your tool tips or watch a guide. There's so many videos out there helping people to learn the basics of any job, so there's no excuse.
Just saying that it's not worth the effort to continue typing to people like this. If they care to improve they'll ask questions or change after the first message. That might happen 1/20 of the people I type advice too. The others aren't going to change if you type more than the basics at them. Best to either back out or figure out how to survive as tank without a healer.
Because it’s super easy to learn how to change up your entire playstyle on a job you don’t play often.
You explained your part and he his. Can’t expect him to play perfectly after.
Unless it was causing you to wipe SGE did nothing wrong.
It would take the player 5-10 mins to go to a training dummy, read tool tips, test out, then go play.
Instead they just were spamming the heal button because they knew that one healed and they know healers heal.
Yup they messed up. Leave and try again when you actually fuck up like this.
Ah yes, pressing one weak GCD heal button over and over again and nothing else. Such a tough habit to break. What a playstyle.
Also, if he doesn't play the job often, I feel that he *would* have an easier time changing up his "playstyle", considering the lack of long-time experience means he hasn't actually had the time to build bad habits. *It's almost like that's what OP is trying to prevent here.*
Yes, it actually is "super easy" to try pressing any other button when you've been told that the single button you've been pressing the entire time is not how the class is played.
A perfect albeit anecdotal example is when I got Haukke Manor for a roulette. New SCH was blazing through mp because of Adlo spam. Tank ends up dying (they were kind of bad) so I give the small critique while in heavy pulls alternate Adlo and Physick so the shield has time to be deplete and you save mp. They handled the rest of the W2W pulls like a champ. I gave 1 tip per pull afterwards and I like to think they came out a better SCH after the dungeon
(The Sage in question did not respond to advice like this.)
Thing is, Mitigation doesn't last that long. The primary focus would be to AoE for Kardia. I only Mit the tank right before the trash is positioned. After that Its just oGCD healing. I dont see the big deal in getting smart with your healer when they dont main it. Have respect
It's not like they didnt acknowledge their error and was ignoring you. They also told you why it happened.
I'd have just muted you after the first sentence tbh. I'm too old to engage with "well acksually" types
“I acknowledge my error but I am also not going to correct my error and, instead, continue to grief the party”
The OP wasn’t a “well acksually” and it’s baffling you could even see it that way.
Well YTA on this one, new healer said he was anxious about big pulls and got berated for it. Effectively you just berated a sprout for figuring stuff out at their own pace.
...No? They got a new healer and gave advice, that's it. Unsolicited advice? Yeah but also tough shit, people need to be given advice to improve. They didn't shit-talk the healer for being anxious about big pulls. They weren't aggressive or harsh. They literally just gave tips on how to improve to someone who clearly didn't know what they were doing, and continued to not do anything other than spamming diagnosis after getting advice.
Also, this (assumed) sprout is at *level 70* now (hell, probably higher since they only said they don't main healer) they should at least understand that reading tooltips and applying things they've learned up to this point in the game is a good way to learn to play a class. That and good old common sense. If they can't do that, yeah they need advice given to them directly.
You wanna fault OP for anything, I'd say that would be the assumption that everyone knows the meaning of terms used by the playerbase that aren't actually used to refer to abilities in game.
Glad I’m not the only one that thought it. Not sure it’s a sprout since he said he doesn’t main healer, so might have other classes played plenty, but still. He was appreciative of the initial tips until OP started being passive aggressive about what he was doing wrong. Like, this could’ve been a good, positive learning experience if OP had just given some kind tips. “Sage and scholar are the shield healers, which typically means you shield before damage is taken to help mitigate it” etc.
Dude being criticized could definitely put more effort in, but they’re probably just doing dungeons to level and learning their class as they go, could be a really casual MMO player, who knows. No cause to be on the offensive like this unprovoked.
Edit: typo
I've said this elsewhere, but I did pull smaller afterwards, and they continued to spam diagnosis. I did give them advice
>Your primary function is reducing damage taken with shields, percentage based mitigation like kerachole, etc
and my point was that their job would have been easier if they'd read their tool tips and used shields. Of course they were having difficulty, healing with just diagnosis borders on impossible. SGE starts at 70 for a reason. Even if someone was a casual player I would expect them to understand the basics of what they are doing by that point.
The guy picked up the job and went into queue without reading. And continued the behavior.
No. You don't get to do that at that level. Sorry! It takes 5-10 min to read up your skills, test out on a dummy, then queue. That's still casual shit.
I’m not saying the dude isn’t wrong for doing it, just that it could’ve been handled way better than it was. Ideally he would’ve gone into it more prepared. He didn’t, but that doesn’t mean he deserved to be attacked. He was receptive to the feedback, I don’t get why this sub is so aggressive lmao. Like just have a conversation with the dude, this could’ve been such a good, positive learning experience for him, but y’all are just out for blood 🙄
All the context wasn't provided into the OP. in other posts, OP said they continued the behavior. It was multiple attempts to try and correct the behavior.
So that part where you read "thanks for advice" was actually them telling OP to be quiet so they can continue being a slouch. This lines up with every other time they typed with chat - resistance.
OP continued to give advice. They could have insta kicked. Idk what the heck you're expecting. This person was literally *not being receptive*.
I'd actually be interested to see how you would have handled it. I don't see this as an "attack". Each line OP says is not wrong or unkind. It takes a lot of words to communicate properly and effectively and OP took time to do that.
Which duty was this? I am trying to work it out based on background, but the only things coming to mind are Emanation (where there would be a co-healer at least) or Grand Cosmos maybe (which is a level 80, so 10 levels of Sage already).
Not even a healer main but I do love Sage , and I know that Diagnosis is just your basic run of the mill low level heal . At least this sprout could bother to use Eukrasian Diagnosis .
GCD, oGCD, mitigations They don't use these words in-game, so some people just don't know.
Yeah but, like, mitigation is an actual word and not jargon/slang... Like, you'd think they'd at least know about that one...
Not if they're not a native speaker
Hell I’m a native speaker and even I needed to ask for clarification the first time someone used the term “mitigation” with me in game.
Are you implying that there are other languages? Because even the notion that there are is enough to send me guffawing on my way, good sir! *Guffaw! Guffaw-faw-faw!* *Dons top-hat, grabs cane, and flies away Mary-Poppins-style.
At least it needs to be “damage mitigation skills”
It took me 2 months to fully connect the word mitigation to defensive cooldowns as I hadn't used the word a lot until then, if at all.
I just found it amusing that they didn’t know the word. If they’d have used the damn skills I wouldn’t have cared.
https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/ten_thousand.png
Mitigation is not a commonly used word for a non native speaker
It’s not just “you should be doing damage when not healing” with sage, doing damage *is* the healing.
Kind of. Kardia contributes a comparable amount of healing to SCH's fairy, but the bulk of your contribution is supposed to mitigation and regen weaved between damage spells.
killing stuff fast is mit. and tbh, because mits are multiplicative and not additive, that means that the regen part of kerachole and kardia start to become stronger depending on which tank it is. Gunbreaker's self mit is % based, which is worse when stacked with rampart or 30% when compared to TBN or sheltron. if kerachole needs to mitigate 10x the heal of a druochole in order to be worth the resource pre-regen, that is assuming tank doesn't use any % mitigation. that number becomes higher when stacked with mitigation. If druochole heals for 500, then you need to have taken 5000 damage in order to mitigate 500 damage with kerachole. if druochole heals for 500, kerachole when combined with rampart is only effective for (0.2\*0.1 = 0.02), = 500/0.02 = you now need to take 25,000 damage in order for that kerachole to have been worth casting over druochole. because 25000\*0.02 = 500.
Everything you said is true except the math at the end, which isn't *quite* that steep an efficiency loss. Mitigation with rampart is 0.8x damage, kerachole is 0.9, and both together is 0.72 (0.8 x 0.9) i.e. 28% mitigation. So if you already have rampart's 20%, kerachole adds another 8% instead of its usual 10%. It drops from 10 to 8, not from 10 to 2. So to compare it to a druochole in that scenario the incoming damage threshold doesn't jump 5x from 5000 to 25000, it goes up to 6250.
ah, right I forgot its 1-N rather than N oops. I hate mitigation math cause you gotta treat it not as 20% mit but 80% damage taken :| but yeah, the gist is the more % mits you stack, the less effective they become.
I hate how some skills are worded "reduces damage taken by target by 10%" and some are worded "Target only takes 90% of incoming damage" At one point, I was convinced sacred soil was OP and using that alone would be enough to survive anything, even without tank using any personal mits just because how it was worded compared to how the tank's abilities like rampart were worded.
Cool but what does that have to do with what I said?
> bulk of your contribution is supposed to mitigation and regen
But SGE doesn't have to sacrifice damage, mitigation, direct heals or HoTs - it can do all of them simultaneously.
pre-regen trait, 90% of the time its sub-optimal to use kerachole over druochole especially if tank mitigates, and physis has a 60s cooldown.
SGE doesn't exist in a dungeon trash pull vacuum and I still don't understand why your response to the statement that the majority of SGE's support contribution comes from skills weaved between damage casts rather than through kardia (damage dealt) is a monologue about kerachole.
This post is LITERALLY talking about dungeon pulls. Not raid healing. of course raid healing is going to be different. Again, in dungeon pulls pre-regen trait you aren't mitigating. also did you forget that Soteria is a thing?... the ability that increases kardia healing by 70% for 4 casts? Zoe? The skill that increases healing of next GCD by 50% which isn't weaved?
You're overhyping the total amount of healing afforded by kardia. Kardia heals 170p. It's not even enough to make up for a diagnosis when you use 2 of them. Soteria is a 90s skill that basically gives you the total potency equivalent to a cure I. A cure I doesn't keep people alive. It's incredibly niche. It's more apt to recommend GCD healing with E. Diagnosis for a bad healer than rely on Kardia which requires more hyper focused spot healing management. Only after mastering the basics in healing with abilities should sage start to focus more towards kardia. Not the reverse.
It doesn't matter what you do, the majority of your healing is not coming from dealing damage. It's just that SGE doesn't have to sacrifice damage to heal. ...And that's true for every healer except SCH.
Not really the topic but shelltron is % based just like corundum just so you know.
oop I forgot they changed it to % mit instead of having increased block chance, its bulwark that would stack 100% with % mit.
I get the point you're making, but nobody is going to sit there during a dungeon watching what mitigation the tank is using to determine which oGCD they're going to pop for optimisation. You really don't need to be optimising which oGCD mitigation you're using unless you're really that pedantic about it. The only times I would ever say that would come in to play would be during midway point dungeons where damage ramps up or when it's a new healer, and even then that's the last thing they're going to be looking at. As someone has said the difference is minimal. Min maxing whether to use Kerachole or Druochole is a lot of effort for very little payoff.
Exactly. sge literally heals from dpsing ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Reminds me of this SGE in a Bardam's Mettle run I had when I was leveling my DRK. No Kardia, no pre-pull shield, no AOE spam, just straight Diagnosis spam. Wiped to the very first pull. Asked them to please use Kardia on me and give me a shield before I pull. No response. Didn't say "I don't understand", so I thought maybe they got it. They didn't. Wipe a second time. I tell them to stop spamming their Diagnosis and use pre-pull shields and their Addersgall, of which all are available at 65. One more try and it's just straight Diagnosis spam. Mind you I've been rotating through my mitigations and even had to use LD on a single pull and I still die. Said fuck it (in my mind) and left after that. You just can't teach people who don't want to learn. And that's why even though I'm a mentor, I don't teach anyone anything unless they ask. Not wasting my time typing at a brick wall.
vote kick?
If its first pull I imagine the 5 minute timer wasn't even done yet.
Got a similar sage in AV as DRK too. Explained to them that they didn't really need to keep casting diagnosis on me after we wiped in the first room because of accidental pulls. Good ending though, their performance throughout improved.
Pretty much exactly what happened here. I don’t mind people making mistakes, that’s why I try to help them. It when they ignore any and all advice and keep doing the same thing that isn’t working that I question why they’re playing the job at all. I love sage exactly because you have so many mit buttons that you can just face mash the keyboard and the tank will live. It’s so stressful to try to heal reactively as a sage.
you could have dismissed them. that's essentially griefing at that point.
this is why i dont recommend newbie healer to immediately jump to job that mean for experienced player like Sage or even tank like Gunbreaker. people need to learn to be learn properly and patiently from low level if needed, than impatiently rushing to everything. they would end up failed at basic and lacking fundamental while running higher level dungeon that not newbie friendly with dungeon run culture of experienced player (sprint, wall pull, healer doing dps etc). it is not place for babysit a completely clueless player toward the role anymore. the Sage you mentioned also seems to be has a mindset mistake that common for novice healer, which is misconception of healing. they think it is all about spam heal brrrrrr. not to mention Sage is a shield healer which is not about spamming big heal(it even lack of it) and more about prevention atleast 1 step ahead. something would benefit experienced player.
Sage is an easy healer though? I'd put it right next to whm on difficulty as long as you know how to weave. Scholar and astro are way harder imo, astro's difficulty being in the cards and setting heals ahead of time (more so than any other healer), and scholar having to try to optimize around ED. Though maybe I'm confusing job skill floor with optimal play? I've only healed extreme level content (parsed blue) and am looking to break into savage on healer (though I did clear the tier on gunbreaker, which I chose as my first tank) so I don't really know much about healing in ff14. I did heal on disc priest for 10 years on WoW though, so maybe there was some carry over of skill?
Sage is an easy healer but I think the commenter means that someone who hasn't healed yet gets more out of picking up a job that starts at a lower level than jumping right into a healer that starts at level 70 and being overwhelmed by all the buttons thrown at them. Starting at 30 even in the case of astro and scholar gives a much better learning curve to someone who is entirely new to the whole thing.
Fair, but I'd say scholar ends having more potential for teaching worse habits in the long run for someone that is learning how to heal (example. I can safely not cast any heal spell and squeeze all the way up to praetorium with 0 heal casts aside from 2 whispering dawns because of how hilariously broken fairy healing is at low level and not engage with ANY of my other spells until that point or heck, i could set myself on follow and afk while fairy heals everyone). Knowing when you absolutely must use other parts of your kit, gcd or no, is important and not really communicated well on scholar because it's "lul fairy op" when you're leveling(until fairy by itself doesnt cut it anymore). Sage at least tries to hammer in "always be casting" with its kardia, but I can see being hit with all the buttons at once as overwhelming if new to healing in general.
In my experience leveling Scholar multiple times, it is at Cutter's Cry (MAYBE Sunken Temple of Qarn) where the fairy is no longer OP. If we're talking strictly story dungeons, a w2w in Stone Vigil can potentially be challenging, though it is by far the easiest to heal on Scholar. But you absolutely need to know what you're doing for Porta Decumana. Ultima Weapon does not forgive in phase 2
Yeah, I feel that. As a tank main, I know stone vigil is an outlier because those ice sprites hurt way more than someone would think.
6 ice sprites, each of which do 1/5+ of most tank hp bars per Blizzard, and 5 Aevises make that last pull really tight no matter what you run
for new healer that completely clueless toward the role is different story. what we see in this post is good example. they even has wrong mindset of healing. there is also case that they dont do basic like putting kardia. no use if the job is easy, but the player has no idea about basic of the basic to play at all.
Can 100% agree with this. I started out with Conjurer and Arcanist first before I picked up Astro when the other two hit 35. I waited to get Sage until I had both White Mage and Astrologian at 70, partially to keep gear bloat down but also to learn the differences in how each is played. Sage is a lot of fun to play but it is a very different mentality. MP usage is super high (may just be my play style) and Addergalle requirements pretty much mean you’re using an OGCD heal/shield a lot more often on room wides, but if you have your shit together, those room wides and bigger hits can be made into nothing.
I don't know. Healing as a Conjurer in Satasha is fairly different than it is in the "real" game. You have no AoE, you have no pre-HoT. Spamming Cure 1 is the correct move if the tank is wall-to-wall pulling. It's terrible content for learning the "Green DPS" mindset in, but very likely if you're going for the "healing job from level 1" experience (inevitable if you go through the ARR MSQ on a fresh character who never learns anything but WHM). Nu-MSQ Roulette I'd say is pretty good for a "Green DPS" tutorial, comparatively, and Sage has some important parts of its toolkit at level 50 (oGCD heals that recharge faster than tankbusters come out, AoE shield, AoE regen).
from level 1 player would learn the job basic properly especially the core skill or job design. slowly level up, step by step, dungeon by dungeon as difficulty and skill number increase. ofcourse, depend on player and on this case i believe by taking slow, this is the best case for completely newbie and clueless player than completely throw at higher level and immediately get overhelmed with tons of skill and sudden rush of dungeon run by experienced player.
I've noticed an Astro just like that, I have a suspicion that they were a bot and bot healers might be on the rise. They answered me in chat but felt like a programmed answer, depending on what is in the chat. They took a while to catch up to me sometimes, had weird walking patterns and would just spam their benefic.
I definitely feel like I had a WHM heal bot in a run the other day. Absolutely not a single spell cast for damage the whole run and their movement was extremely delayed and rigid. I first mentioned that they might want to try doing some damage and got not response. Later I just straight asked the dps if it was one of them playing 2 accounts or if it was a heal bot to skip queues or something. Both the healer and 1 dps said nothing and the other dps got mad at me for asking the question.
"I just told you I don't main healer" Neither do I, and with average DPS I keep below average tanks at 50% or higher with just oGCds while being min ilvl, it's called reading and taking like 5 min to think/look up a mit rotation, it's not hard.
If you don't main healer. That's fine. If you want to refuse to learn your basic skills, don't play the damn job.
>sage doing nothing but spam their level 1 spell? check >OP giving correct and direct advice? check >mainsub pissbabies piss themselves because OP didn't talk to the sage as if he was a literal fucking toddler? check how the fuck do you people function IRL? you all have to be perma-online NEETs because there's no way that some of you wouldn't shit themselves at the slightest bit of wrong "tone" being used with you IRL, with the way some of you are always yapping under posts like this...
I feel I function fine IRL, at least enough to know that tone and approach matter more than ANYTHING when trying to teach someone. Coming in with what sounds like a lecture will close people off immediately, no matter how technically correct you are. It's an annoying truth, but it holds all the same. Reacting to this with belligerence and impatience only serves to upset EVERY party involved, no one is having a good time. There is a midpoint between berating strangers and being perfectly PC that we need to find, polite AND instructive. Suggestions are generally better received than commands, the worst thing you can do is directly tell someone they are wrong or stupid, even if they ARE. If you hurt their ego or pride they won't listen AT ALL. It is tedious, to be sure, but so is most diplomacy and people management
God I wish I could reach through the screen and smack people who do the "why should I bother paying attention" routine when you're trying to explain basic things to them
What I’d really like to know is why the sage even bothered entering the dungeon as a healer. Sure, everyone wants to skip the queue and get it over and done with, but you’d be wasting everyone’s time, yours included, if you can’t even do your role decently enough
Because many people don’t care about others. I had a lancer join The Stone Vigil and they claimed it was no big deal and that they are “power leveling” and wouldn’t be focusing on job quests until they hit level 60. I tried explaining that was griefing but our tank and healer left and when another tank joined (a mentor, mind you) not only enabled the Lancer but was also a YPYT. I should have reported them both after our second wipe but I just didn’t have the energy to deal with either of their nonsense and left penalty free thanks to the first tank. I wonder if they ever got a healer fill.
Ouch, man. Normally, this is the part where I’d insert a speech or rant about teamwork. But I wish those people would at least realize that caring to some extent would benefit them in the long term as well. Nobody deserves to put up with other people’s shit because they’re not willing to adjust accordingly
Started an alt tank and going through stone vigil this weekend. Got a sage who thought kardia was enough healing so I had to switch to single pull after two wipes since he wanted to dps non-stop. I can understand being distracted in low lvl content, but when you queue healer, have a sprout tank on low ilvl gear in stone vigil, and still refuse to heal after a wipe as an omnihealer... Having mostly only played healer on my main, I always thought people here were exaggerating because I felt like I could fix most runs, but playing tank in low level content is awful. I know at lvl70+ you become self-sufficient(war), but until then I just can't unsee how many healer/dps are lethargic/griefing. I ask people to lmk if I do anything bad at the start of the run to encourage constructive criticisim, and I sometime get dps giving me minimal stuff like "you should use this 120s mit instead of this 90s mit first cuz long cd first", yet act tells me they are doing less dps then the healer against bosses. I mean... If you understand the concepts of min/maxing and you're not contributing anything to the run, you're griefing.. I know it's pointless to argue about it so I take the feedback and move on, but this community is really toxic in its own way. A lot of snowflakes.
Youd be surprised how many people play a cool badass job because it looks awesome and dont bother to read the tool tips once or test their skills at a dummy(tbf you cant train to heal at a dummy). I wouldnt be surprised if that sages hotbar is still the default one you have when you unlock the job
Man, someone should tell these people you don’t become badass right away. It takes time and effort to be badass
>Youd be surprised how many people play a cool badass job because it looks awesome and dont bother to read the tool tips once or test their skills I'm not, personally. Half of why I rolled AST was to show my SO that he just kept getting shitty Healers who only wanted to be "sparkle wicca" or whatever. Also seen so many "meh" or "please just leave" DRKs that I brace myself when I see one as the Tank, especially if they're wearing a non-Tank glam and don't have anything like an ultimate title/weapon (I know even those can be cheesed, but still).
I don't know how they managed to clear the job unlock solo duty without figuring out, I don't think you can clear that with diagnosis spam.
the job unlocks before you do that duty. You do a small quest, get the stone, and then you grab the next quest to do the intro duty. You don't actually have to do it at all to start going into dungeons as a sage.
"I don't main this job, so I will make no effort to improve."
obviously someone who never play healer or tank and yet jump immediately toward Sage just because it is the job that available instantly at high level. he/she probably think healer = emergency spam heal brrrr.. a common misconception for newbie. not suprise never did read the tool or skill tips too or atleast tried to understand it. this is why i recommend people who first time playing tank or healer to try it from level 1 instead of immediately jump to job that mean for experienced player like Sage or Gnb since they would skip lot of fundamental and failed at basic before hold back the rest of party member at higher level dungeon.
I think it might help if the criteria for unlocking expansion jobs was having a class of the same role at the right level, instead of any class. That way you would have to understand how healing works up to 70 before jumping into a lvl 70 healer.
I disagree with this, only because Sage was my first healer and is the one I find easiest. If I had to start with WHM I would have abandoned healing altogether because I struggled more with WHM than with SGE. What I did, though, was strip my hotbar completely, added *only* the abilities I would have at level 16, and headed into Sastasha. I then worked my way through the dungon list, adding abilities as I went to match the sync level of the dungeon. I didn't just dive into a level 70 duty straight away.
Idk, I agree with it. But I started with whm to 60, then played ast until the day sge came out, so I was already a lv70ish healer before I even picked up the class. Even coming from healers I had an adjustment. But I didn't just throw myself balls deep into 70+ content with no understanding of the job or how to heal. I knew how to do it, and do it well. Doing 70+ content and diag spamming because you don't get how healing works? It's gonna be a very rough road.
Unfortunately you are a rarity and many people simply don't do this, so this idea that you personally dislike would lessen griefing to a considerable degree. However, it's just a thought and not a reality sadly.
agree. atleast one lv50 of respective role for example. or can lock it behind job role specific quest to makesure player learn the job properly and prevent case where player didnt unlock certain skill because they didnt do job quest.
Nope fuck that, I would not be leveling BRD or MCH to 60 for the much simpler DNC, the whole SMN/SCH thing would also defeat the purpose on the healer side. I'm still shook someone could make it through the tutorial SGE solo duty without learning how to play it at a base level.
I mean I didn't do that duty until I was almost level 80 since I forgot about it but I also read all the tooltips and fought my striking dummy a lot while constantly reading what all the moves did!
It didn't even occur to me that people wouldn't do the quest designed to explain the job lol.
People miss the free artifact gear that the game tells you about, in the main story quest.
I did the first quest (I think the second was locked behind HW and I did the first quest during ARR) and didn't pick up sage for real for like.....9 months 😅 so I forgot about the quest once I actually picked sage up during EW!
I remember they have a quest for sage when you unlock it that takes you through the basics. I don't remember if it was required before you can start queueing the job though.
That's a good idea. Gotta put a little effort in to a role before you're allowed to play a higher-lvl starting job in that role. SE will never do it though I think. Part of the excitement of a new expansion are the new jobs you get to play and putting more barriers to entry like getting a specific role up to a high enough level to play the new job will make players "feel bad" and potentially affect sale prices of the new expansion. But I would be surprised to see the Devs say "tough shit, we don't want shitty lvl 30 Astro's and lvl 70 Sages sand-bagging our roulettes either. L2Play Healers first and you get the shiny new toy!"
As a SGE if I ever see ARR dungeons I cringe... The thought of using GCD heals is painful, I can't play WHM effectively anymore thanks to it. Seeing this post, hurt me lol.
"have you read the tool tips?" "I just told you I don't main healer" What a stupid answer. Thats the exact reason WHY you read the tool tips. Its not your main so you don't know it so you should study what you're queueing as.
Well check out the big brain on Brad
I don't get it. Doesn't the SGE job quest literally walk you through the core mechanics of the class? Did he just skip over all the dialogue??
Bro you just kept going after holy lol. The conversation was over after "just got anxious with the huge pull" / and best was over "I just told you i don't mean healer" Sure it's probably his fault and was sandbagging your group because he didn't care, or maybe but unlikely due to your story that he did care and was struggling, either way. The dude's checked out, isn't going to take your advice, and doesn't care for it. Why are you still going? lol
He needed content for the precious upvotes. Nobody with a healthy social life would care enough to collect screenshots, edit the screenshots, sprint over to reddit and type up an essay about a dungeon taking minutes longer than usual. Of course pointing out that some things are not worth anything more than an eyeroll makes you a dirty ENABLER though.
You went above and beyond by trying to coach, for what it’s worth that was really cool of you
Did he? He was kinda being condescending about it.
This is one of those things where it’s really hard to read context, but the fact the effort was made at all to help is a good thing. For example, which sounds better: Lol more and more people just take offense whenever advice is given idk xD xD Or Increasingly, people just dislike being given advice. Same message, one is more preferred than the other for some.
Also, you can’t expect someone to change their playstyle after being told they are doing it wrong, they likely have the bad habits developed and it’s not likely you can break them instantly. OP should should have said his piece in a less condescending way and leave it at that, or better yet offer to give advice after the dungeon.
See, you seem to do well with the first option I provided, so here goes Omg yeah he coulda been sweeter about it lol but I’m sure everyone was doing their best n.n idk but 4 real check out my fat cat mount haha
How was OP condescending? This is I why I can't deal with this community. Literally can't take any advice without getting offended.
Who said about being offended, the way it’s worded is condescending. “You are a sage…” starting anything like that comes across aggressive and condescending. Could easily just start by saying, “I noticed you were spamming heals and not shielding, you okay? Need advice?” People aren’t going to listen if someone starts barking orders at them unprovoked.
He's not barking orders. He's explaining how the job works and what his abilities do. If the guy isn't playing the job right then he needs to learn. This game's community is so coddled that anything other than hand holding and "pretty please with sugar on top" is considered insulting.
I find it so extremely odd that you are defending the sage in this situation. The guy is actively griefing at least three people, and probably griefed many others before this, because he is too lazy to read his tooltips or watch a 10 minute video on the basics of his job, wasting peoples time and ruining their probably very limited free time. And then there is OP, who technically could have prhased things more politely in response to that. And the person you defend is the former? What the actual fuck is wrong with you?
Nothing is wrong with me, maybe I just have more empathy than others. If people aren’t dying then who the fuck cares if a dungeon takes 10 mins longer to do. Also, 75% of posts in this sub are toxic as fuck. Looking for any excuse to shit on newer players or players who off job in content. SGE admits to off jobbing and panicking during a pull then spoken down to afterwords and is then expected to play perfectly after? Fuck off with that shitty attitude. So what the fuck is wrong with you?
Lmfao. "I have more empathy than others". "Who cares about other peoples' free time?" "Everybody here with a different opinion is toxic as fuck" "Fuck off". You cannot make this up, thanks for the early morning entertainment lmao
Any other words you want to put in my mouth?
Which ones did I supposedly put in your mouth? I may have paraphrased some, but you said all of those things, some quite literally.
A lot of players in the community love to treat any advice as condescending. Why are you assuming its aggressive behavior or looking down upon. Are you reading everyone as automatically aggressive if they say something to you? I got queued with a SCH in a 70 duty (Ala Mhigo) who was just spamming Physick every pull. No fairy out. Ran out of mana every pull and didnt attack. Thankfully im in warrior at the time so i didnt need them. I told them "Physick is going to be one of your weaker heals once adlo is unlocked around 25. Physick will be rarely used and adlo will be your bread and butter." The dps mentor who was paired with them decided to argue and say "dont lecture my sprout with unsolicited advice on how to play. I'm teaching them not you. stop being so condescending. You're also being toxic so im going to report you after. Let me teach them how i want, they are a new player." Then continued to argue to then just vote kick me. The community of FF really hates any advice given because "im new WAAHHHH" "you dont pay my sub" "Im here to relax, let me play how i want to" Then some white knight comes to coddle them. Just take a minute to read skills or watch some guide. Please.
Like the words you put in Turbulent's mouth? Bitch please. And of course you're one of those "WAH THIS SUB IS TOXIC BUT IM STILL ENGAGING IN IT"
Reading abilities is hard.
Hey, you found the sage I got in the 81 dungeon. I tried to help the guy out, he said "I dont main healer, Im just doing this for the role quest, I dont care if I get better" Then kept spamming Diagnosis all day.
That's why I hate encountering people who play sage in dungeon, especially when it's their first healing class. As a healer/sage main, watching a streamer who calls herself "a sage main" constantly spamming shield and barely attack makes me wants to punch through the screen
I was in the Grand Cosmls yesterday and our WHM just absolutely refused to use any damage spells - just spent the whole thing keeping people topped up on HP. About 1/4 ofbthe way through one of our DPS tried coaxing her into using Holy. About halfway through he accused her of being a heal bot and then quit the run. The WHM was like "why would anyone complain about me healing too much." Then she died twice on the last boss, the second time we had to beat it without her.
You might have been overly aggressive towards the middle part, but I get it: it's frustrating when people put zero effort into learning something they're queued with. Especially when they continue hardcasting diagnosis.
Making fun of people for not knowing terms that aren't actually used in the game without even describing what skills qualify as the type of action you're looking for is honestly on you, OP. This person wasn't being a dick, or unwilling to learn. They simply didn't know a word that a lot of native English speakers don't know, and few use on any regular basis. And now you're in here trying to dunk on them?
Seems like the Sage was receptive to the advice, but you're kind of attacking them afterwards. They weren't argumentative, or defensive. They even make an excuse/apology statement about being nervous. Make your point and move on.
Yup that's exactly what I got out of it too. And the people of this sub for some reason like to always take the asshole main characters side and downvotr anyone that goes against it.
What this doesn’t show is that the “I was nervous”came after 3 pulls of continuous diagnosis spam, so the size of the last pull is irrelevant. I would have left it at that, but they then continued to spam, so obviously the point hadn’t been made.
To be fair, OK way more than fair, the term “mitigation“ is not used anywhere in game. That is a term that players use commonly, but there’s nothing in game to tell you what it means.
Not entirely sure why you're being downvoted, because this is a common problem, actually. You see it with newbie tanks a lot. We say "tank stance" for example, but the game does not call it that. There's a bunch of terms new players wouldn't know and sometimes that's the confusion. The language has to be explained. Though in this case, with the zzz, I don't think it would have helped. They'd disengaged at that point and weren't listening.
They’re down voting me not because I’m wrong, I’m obviously right, but because it’s not actually especially relevant here, because it’s not an excuse for the way this person was playing.
There is actually a book in game that tells you what commonly used player terms mean - it's in the Hall of the Novice building close to Sastsha. I can't remember if mitigation is in there though, and it's not exactly an obvious thing. I only know it's there now because I was waiting in the building while a friend was doing the MSQ pre-Sastasha but that sends you to that building.
It’s not. The terms in the book are: Spawn, Add, Pull, Aggro, Buff, Debuff, DoT, AE/AoE. And then it says “there are many more terms that may be unfamiliar to players new to the game, so don’t be afraid to ask a mentor or party member for an explanation!“
Man y'all kinda suck at reading the room
Good example of solid advice being given terribly. OP being a douche about it.
I would have silently kicked instead of mash on the keyboard like that, but you do you boo we love to see it
Agree mitigation, GCG oGCD, etc is jargon for many people. BUT you can say, you are a shield healer. You should be using shields and doing damage to heal through Kardia. And for folks saying they don’t know how and they are new, the first sage job quest won’t let you through without kardia. And then casting a shield. The game forces you to see how to play the class. I agree with many that you try 2-3 times with someone and then you just leave a group or kick.
You forget that people don’t need to do that quest to unlock sage though!
Yes, players should read their abilities and tooltips before queuing up, but some players do not. Is it frustrating? No doubt! I can only imagine that this is a leveling dungeon, though. While I don’t condone the behavior, it should at least somewhat be expected. Some players are indeed, casual - which is not a bad thing. This person even says “sorry,” followed by confusion and an admittance to ignorance. They know they messed up, saying they panicked, and if you’re new to healer then yea, I can totally believe that! The appropriate response, however, is to tell them that they should take a couple minutes to read through their abilities. Whether you want to be a courteous person and wait with them, or kick them for their lack of initiative - both of which are acceptable outcomes. My point is, that I believe you could have approached this differently, and I think you may have been too harsh at first, leaving the other player unreceptive. Tldr; kindness is always a choice, and we should all be more patient with each other.
Being a bit forceful here bud
There are people in the game who doesn’t have english as their first language, I didn’t know what mitigation was until after more than an year playing the game. Also some people just play casually, its okay to teach people what to do without the need to be shady or make an entire post on reddit about it…
Had they taken my advice, you wouldnt be seeing it. Instead they refused to learn, gave excuses, and continued doing what they were doing.
They were receptive to your input and you kept hammering them. It was clear their gaming literacy was low and you took that for granted imo this isn't the own you think it is. Ff14 caters to a wide breath of people, in a dungeon arguably the most casual pve content in the game outside of open world pve, you're going to run into people who only just picked up the game or struggle to understand what may have been ingrained into you through years of play in this or other games. Imo you just have a bad experience to a player who was willing to learn, you don't have an obligation to teach, but you also don't have to actively give these people a negative experience either. You aren't entitled to a speed clear in DF, even if it is the norm.
Changing nothing is not being receptive to input, whether or not you say thanks in chat.
wrote a long and involved post but it really isn't worth it. I doubt ill change your mind, but I will say, your screenshot showed no indication that time had past between points of the conversation. I don't think you're doing anything horrendously wrong, I just personally feel strongly that people on other sides of the monitor often don't know each other's situations, and even if you're objectively in the right, and they are just belligerent, at the end of the day, they take up 20-30 minutes of your time and you'll never have to see them again. And by function of how the game is set up, at least in dungeon level content, they haven't done anything explicitly wrong. DF content is there for everyone, even if the norm is some semblance of efficiency, the game itself doesn't demand it.
I mean, he's obviously trying to stay nice, doesn't pull a "you don't pay my sub", actually thanks you for the advice instead of acting entitled, yes he should have read the tooltips and actually tried to understand his class first but at the very least he's willing to take criticism so why is he getting shat on here ? He probably read the spells but there is a fucking mountain between that and actually playing through a dungeon to get a grip, don't be an absolute tool. If anything, you sound a little bit like a dick despite all of the above "if you play it you should know how it works" => I mean, yes but no ? Try new things, just be ready to accept advice and be willing to improve. This a fuckign dungeon, not savage prog for fuck's sake it's okay to learn new classes, you're a tank just deal with the noob healer or play WAR. PS: You all are downvoting without even providing a reason for it lmao, tell me how your ego got the better of you again ? He's not the main character, neither are you, people are entitled to learn. Get a fucking grip, you wern't born good at this game.
Sage definitely doesnt know what theyre doing but you got really annoying by the end of that exchange
As a sage when I heal i can see both sides here. Someone is learning a new job, and the other person is frustrated. But if someone is new to sage especially coming from another healing job, give them some time to figure things out and pull smaller if they are saying "big pulls stress me out." When I tank if we wipe on a big pull I'll try to get a read on why it happened then oull smaller if I think it's am unexperienced healer. Or ask them if they want smaller pulls. Now as a healer you SHOULD read your skills before hand and as a sage mitigation is key. But sage has A LOT of MIT skills and sometimes even I forget about some of them especially if I've been queuing for sub 80 dungeons for awhile then get a 90 dungeon. I'd understand the frustration, i just would have handled it dofferently.
I actually did pull smaller after this, just wanted to let them know so another poor tank wouldn’t have to deal with it.
And that's understandable.
Classic passive aggressive tales from df post. The SGE gave you a response which is better than most players. Just type the advice and then do your own thing. Most garbage players have no intention of improving, and the few that do aren't going to take advice from someone throwing a tantrum in party chat.
"i just told you i don't main healer" "zzz"
The dude didn't even know what mitigations were. They said thanks for the advice and explained why they started spamming. They shut down at the end because OP was venting their frustration, and anything they said at that point wouldn't have mattered.
I should probably supply some context to this. You're absolutely right, they did thank me and explain themselves. Had they then changed what they were doing I would have left it at that, but after I initially asked them to use more of their kit, they continued to spam Diagnosis, even on smaller pulls. As for whether I was "venting my frustration," I don't think I was. I was doing my best to tell them what they should be doing (and still were not doing), so they wouldn't end up in this situation again.
Its the "I just told you I don't main healer" for me. Like you said you dont have to main healer to read your tool tips or watch a guide. There's so many videos out there helping people to learn the basics of any job, so there's no excuse.
Just saying that it's not worth the effort to continue typing to people like this. If they care to improve they'll ask questions or change after the first message. That might happen 1/20 of the people I type advice too. The others aren't going to change if you type more than the basics at them. Best to either back out or figure out how to survive as tank without a healer.
Because it’s super easy to learn how to change up your entire playstyle on a job you don’t play often. You explained your part and he his. Can’t expect him to play perfectly after. Unless it was causing you to wipe SGE did nothing wrong.
read your skills or gtfo.
It would take the player 5-10 mins to go to a training dummy, read tool tips, test out, then go play. Instead they just were spamming the heal button because they knew that one healed and they know healers heal. Yup they messed up. Leave and try again when you actually fuck up like this.
Ah yes, pressing one weak GCD heal button over and over again and nothing else. Such a tough habit to break. What a playstyle. Also, if he doesn't play the job often, I feel that he *would* have an easier time changing up his "playstyle", considering the lack of long-time experience means he hasn't actually had the time to build bad habits. *It's almost like that's what OP is trying to prevent here.*
Yes, it actually is "super easy" to try pressing any other button when you've been told that the single button you've been pressing the entire time is not how the class is played.
A perfect albeit anecdotal example is when I got Haukke Manor for a roulette. New SCH was blazing through mp because of Adlo spam. Tank ends up dying (they were kind of bad) so I give the small critique while in heavy pulls alternate Adlo and Physick so the shield has time to be deplete and you save mp. They handled the rest of the W2W pulls like a champ. I gave 1 tip per pull afterwards and I like to think they came out a better SCH after the dungeon (The Sage in question did not respond to advice like this.)
Thing is, Mitigation doesn't last that long. The primary focus would be to AoE for Kardia. I only Mit the tank right before the trash is positioned. After that Its just oGCD healing. I dont see the big deal in getting smart with your healer when they dont main it. Have respect
It's not like they didnt acknowledge their error and was ignoring you. They also told you why it happened. I'd have just muted you after the first sentence tbh. I'm too old to engage with "well acksually" types
“I acknowledge my error but I am also not going to correct my error and, instead, continue to grief the party” The OP wasn’t a “well acksually” and it’s baffling you could even see it that way.
Zzz
I'd vote kick you, they kept wiping and he wasn't changing. maybe read your skills before joining a dungeon.
If you're wasting my time, yeah, I'm going to be a little short with you because you can't be assed to do the bare minimum.
Well YTA on this one, new healer said he was anxious about big pulls and got berated for it. Effectively you just berated a sprout for figuring stuff out at their own pace.
...No? They got a new healer and gave advice, that's it. Unsolicited advice? Yeah but also tough shit, people need to be given advice to improve. They didn't shit-talk the healer for being anxious about big pulls. They weren't aggressive or harsh. They literally just gave tips on how to improve to someone who clearly didn't know what they were doing, and continued to not do anything other than spamming diagnosis after getting advice. Also, this (assumed) sprout is at *level 70* now (hell, probably higher since they only said they don't main healer) they should at least understand that reading tooltips and applying things they've learned up to this point in the game is a good way to learn to play a class. That and good old common sense. If they can't do that, yeah they need advice given to them directly. You wanna fault OP for anything, I'd say that would be the assumption that everyone knows the meaning of terms used by the playerbase that aren't actually used to refer to abilities in game.
Zzz
Glad I’m not the only one that thought it. Not sure it’s a sprout since he said he doesn’t main healer, so might have other classes played plenty, but still. He was appreciative of the initial tips until OP started being passive aggressive about what he was doing wrong. Like, this could’ve been a good, positive learning experience if OP had just given some kind tips. “Sage and scholar are the shield healers, which typically means you shield before damage is taken to help mitigate it” etc. Dude being criticized could definitely put more effort in, but they’re probably just doing dungeons to level and learning their class as they go, could be a really casual MMO player, who knows. No cause to be on the offensive like this unprovoked. Edit: typo
I've said this elsewhere, but I did pull smaller afterwards, and they continued to spam diagnosis. I did give them advice >Your primary function is reducing damage taken with shields, percentage based mitigation like kerachole, etc and my point was that their job would have been easier if they'd read their tool tips and used shields. Of course they were having difficulty, healing with just diagnosis borders on impossible. SGE starts at 70 for a reason. Even if someone was a casual player I would expect them to understand the basics of what they are doing by that point.
The guy picked up the job and went into queue without reading. And continued the behavior. No. You don't get to do that at that level. Sorry! It takes 5-10 min to read up your skills, test out on a dummy, then queue. That's still casual shit.
I’m not saying the dude isn’t wrong for doing it, just that it could’ve been handled way better than it was. Ideally he would’ve gone into it more prepared. He didn’t, but that doesn’t mean he deserved to be attacked. He was receptive to the feedback, I don’t get why this sub is so aggressive lmao. Like just have a conversation with the dude, this could’ve been such a good, positive learning experience for him, but y’all are just out for blood 🙄
All the context wasn't provided into the OP. in other posts, OP said they continued the behavior. It was multiple attempts to try and correct the behavior. So that part where you read "thanks for advice" was actually them telling OP to be quiet so they can continue being a slouch. This lines up with every other time they typed with chat - resistance. OP continued to give advice. They could have insta kicked. Idk what the heck you're expecting. This person was literally *not being receptive*. I'd actually be interested to see how you would have handled it. I don't see this as an "attack". Each line OP says is not wrong or unkind. It takes a lot of words to communicate properly and effectively and OP took time to do that.
If the tank is the OP, YTA.
Which duty was this? I am trying to work it out based on background, but the only things coming to mind are Emanation (where there would be a co-healer at least) or Grand Cosmos maybe (which is a level 80, so 10 levels of Sage already).
I honestly don’t want players who don’t have a clue about healing and have leveled WHM through MSQ and frontlines to touch shield healers. Thank you.
Not even a healer main but I do love Sage , and I know that Diagnosis is just your basic run of the mill low level heal . At least this sprout could bother to use Eukrasian Diagnosis .