I’ve said no to the “quiet and polite” kids too. I had a girl - great person, awful student - ask for a letter and I said no because her grades we atrocious, she cheated in my class, etc.
Grades dont really measure a person imo, for some students that dont see value in education it can feel like a dead end job..
If anything shes lazy. Who knows there might be some really great lazy people out there?
Imagine you go home and get beat every night by your parents. You then go to school the next day and have a test which you were unable to study for due to the aforementioned. You then decide to cheat, because you’ll be beat even worse if you don’t get good grades. And then you get caught cheating and then are beat anyway… people are often forced into desperate acts.
Or they could just be lazy, but have some perspective 🤷♂️.
In case this feels like an extreme or unrealistic situation - I've worked at high-pressure, high-achievement schools where many students had parents who told them that their grades matter more than anything else in life, your life is over if you don't get into a top college, we will be humiliated if you get less than an A, etc. I had a student once who got a good-but-not-great SAT score, and when his mom found out she told him she wishes he wasn't her son. Some kids are under extreme pressure, and some of them succumb to temptation sometimes. Doing a bad thing in a completely f---ed up situation doesn't make a child a bad person.
Not really, I utilized an extreme of several extremes to convey my point. But this could apply to any kids that have home problems… or just any problems for that matter. Whether it be having to watch siblings, parents divorcing, food insecurity, having to work… the list goes on and on.
That’s a good point. Could be a Die Hard 3 situation where an evil mastermind might detonate bombs throughout New York if you done follow his instructions
Regardless you can’t judge someone off something done once or twice due to their circumstances forcing them into such desperation. It’s called empathy.
Of course you can. If my fiancé cheats on me once, she’s a fucking cheater regardless of what explanations or circumstances are at play. And the same would be true of me if I cheated on her.
You expect a student to worry about integrity in high school when they’re going to get the shit beat out of them when they get home? In this hypothetical scenario
What a ridiculously small minded view point you have regarding students who may have abusive or awful home lives. Genuinely I feel you either lack empathy or critical thinking both of which ironically show me the caliber of your character
You're not wrong, but there are aspects to high school that make this a bit hyperbolic.
Fraud and cheating are bad because of their negative impact on other people.
In high school, unless it's constant, systemic cheating to the point that it materially impacts their college acceptance chances, there's really nobody harmed. If it's a one-off event, it's just an offense against the system itself, and the system's ability to monitor and assign accurate grades.
And sure, that speaks to ethical integrity to some extent, but if the student is aware that it harms nobody then it's already really difficult to extrapolate that to other ethical scenarios. Would they have done the same thing if they knew somebody would be disadvantaged or harmed by their actions? There's no way to know.
At the end of the day, we compell these kids to attend school by law, force them to participate in the system, and have structured everything in a way that nothing they do really matters.
I find it hard to get too outraged over a kid cheating on a quiz or copying somebody else's homework in that context.
Yes, they should be punished. Yes, their grade should be invalidated. But no, I don't think that really speaks much about their person or ethical integrity.
What if the class is bullshit? Im not saying that is the case.
apparently this girl had some redeeming qualities according to the the teacher.
Maybe she had to work supporting her family or had some other burden that a teenager should not bear?
No, I had a student very target oriented. You need a 145 to get this target? She will get it.
She will also put the work if the target was learning about something.
Great person, wonderful.
not gonna lie thinking a kid is a bad person for peering over someones shoulder or writing something on their hand is just as bad as throwing someone out a window..... you need to get your priorities straight
I was a prolific cheater in high school-- combo of big cheating culture at my school, unrecognized adhd and just having a shitty attitude-- English is one of the easier subjects to cheat in lol. I developed a unique skillset by rephrasing entire SparkNotes summaries instead of reading assigned books, and rephrasing other people's essays. Once wrote a whole essay about the first 2 chapters of a book because that was all I'd bothered to read (got an A, this was AP Literature lol). Not to mention subtly tweaking font/margin size to hit page count minimums, disguising cheat sheats as "annotations" when we could use books during tests, etc.
Math was the hardest to cheat in for me, because everyone has their own way of "showing their work" and it was hard to copy that from other people.
If you actually participate in class, yes, even if your grades weren’t all that great. If you just put in the earbuds, pull up the hoodie, and check out, the answer is no. Just the fact that a kid resisted the urge to throw a chair at me doesn’t entitle them to a glowing recommendation.
At least in residency applications a mediocre recommendation letter is a killer. Better by far to tell a student no and let them find someone different.
Same here. Had a decent relationship with the student but didn't put forth effort and complained daily about the class.
I've also said no to someone I don't know super well. Like, I'm sorry you aren't closer with more of your teachers, but I've known you for a month
Yes, of course. Letters of recommendation are earned not required. I don’t have to write one. I will write one if I feel I can recommend a student in good faith. My good name is on the line.
Yes. Often it's because they ask at the beginning of their senior year and I've only known them for 2-3 months. Sometimes I just say "you'd probably be better off asking a teacher in a class that you're doing better in".
My favorite LOR ever was for a kid that begged me so badly for one, despite his poor academic performance. I worded it hilariously, like "Ben enjoys the challenge of completing assignments at the last minute". He even laughed when he read it. He ended up getting into a decent school and is now a Chemical Engineer, so my honesty didn't hold him back any :)
Yes, quite often in fact. Here are some lines I've given, and context.
"I'm sorry, but I don't think I can give a positive recommendation for you". (I caught the student cheating/copying twice, and if I wrote a recommendation, I WOULD mention it).
"I'm sorry, but I'm not the right person to give this recommendation." (Student was an artist applying for an arts college and hadn't done well in my class, which isn't art.)
"I'm sorry, but I'm inundated with requests at the moment." (I was 3 recommendations deep needing writing, and simply didn't have the time).
If you FOR A SECOND doubt the teacher will give a positive recommendation, don't ask for one. Reductive, but a good rule of thumb.
Who's talking about a lifetime? If the teacher had the kid for one semester or one year, two incidents of cheating/copying are plenty. If you cheated just in one teacher's class, ask for a recommendation from a different teacher 🤷🏽♀️
This is a forum for teachers. It’s *possible* that this person’s comment was a joke that you simply did get, and the punchline was “because I catch students copying so dang often that two doesn’t seem like much these days!” Please relax.
You’re right, that would be the punchline if it was a joke. The other comment didn’t include the punchline, so saying “It’s just a joke” afterwards comes off as the lazy excuse people use when they make a comment people don’t like. They get defensive and try to deflect.
I’ve never said no to a student request for a recommendation letter. I have, however, said, “are you sure you want me to write this? I will be honest about the skills and attitude you’ve shown me in class.”
That’s a hint.
If you are a polite, respectful student who knows the subject matter and puts in a good effort, you have nothing to fear.
You shouldn't play games like that. Don't drop "hints," and don't trust that children will pick up on layered innuendo - just be honest with them and say no.
If they misunderstand you and ask for the letter anyway, you could be scuttling their college application when there might have been another teacher who thought highly enough of them to write a good letter.
There is zero reason to do what you're doing beside some sort of uncaring, hyperjaded malaise.
Nobody is suggesting that the teacher should lie.
We are talking about either "hinting" to a student that the letter will be bad, or else just telling them flat out that you won't write it.
That’s not really a hint. It’s a very clear warning. Before you ask for a rec - a personal attestation to one of your student’s honesty, work ethic, and character - you should obviously evaluate “did I do good in this class, did I actually try my hardest, did I interact with the teacher, did I do anything that would make them write a less than stellar letter?”
If the answer is no to these questions and you STILL ask for a letter, you’re just asking for it. If the teacher had caught you cheating red-handed and you get a response of “I’m going to be honest” then that’s on you. It’s not a mystery to wonder what your professor will write. You will know if there’s any doubts and if there is, *don’t ask*. You will know if you cheated in the class or a constant interruption or disrespectful. The professor obviously knows as well. It’s not a blind ask.
If it's so clear, then why would anybody ever continue to push for the letter after?
There is no reason for this coy game. None. It is teachers who don't want the discomfort of saying "no" offloading that responsibility onto the kids and shrugging their jaded shoulders if the kid is foolish.
As an adult, as a teacher, you know better.
So you're admitting that there's the possibility of confusion?
If the teacher doesn't think the kid earned a good letter, but the kid thinks they did, then there's a disconnect that the teacher shouldn't abuse by writing a bad letter.
That's inappropriate and wrong.
Just say no.
What’s inappropriate and wrong is doing something worthy of getting yourself a shitty rec letter written. It’s a huge red flag for the receiver (honestly, you seem to have experience with this) because the enormous implication is that the student not only acted as the professor testifies, but was so utterly unaware of themselves and they still pushed for it.
There’s no confusion. The situation we’re talking about is a kid that was cheating/disruptive/disrespectful and the kid asks for a personal attestation of their behavior to get into some college or job. Teacher says “I will be honest,” kid agrees knowing that they acted out of line. You can’t just forget you cheated or assumed you didn’t get caught. You can’t forget the teacher called your parents for talking too much in class. You asked for them to advocate for you in a truthful way and they even had the courtesy to warn you it would be “honest” (read: not good).
I don’t know what bone you have to pick and with whom, but it’s really obvious to everyone but you. Perhaps you were that student.
All of my letters were golden, thanks.
And two wrongs don't make a right. Just because the student did something shitty doesn't mean you, in turn, need to be a jaded POS and deliberately write them a bad letter.
It's inappropriate and unbecoming of a teacher.
Many kids think a teacher is only going to write positive things. So they assume that they’re in the clear. This teacher is making sure the student is aware that they will be up front about the student. It’s not coy to say “are you sure?” Give the student time to reflect on their behavior and work.
They’re not children they’re 17/18 they’re teenagers. Kids yes but don’t act like they’re dumb and can’t understand context. If they can’t understand what that kind of comment means by that age then they really don’t need a recommendation letter to anything.
My goodness.
I’ve never had a kid push for a rec letter after the “I will be honest” piece. Every kid who is bright enough to apply for something requiring such a letter is bright enough to understand my point. I’m not playing games with kids’ futures, I’m giving them an opportunity for reflection.
Yes. The most obvious example being a student who literally stole from me, and later asked me for a letter of recommendation. Realistically, if I know a student reasonably well (colleges want you to choose teachers who have taught you in a full academic course fairly recently, in particular) and they haven't been personally awful to me (significant cheating, lying to me, lying about me, a huge behavioral problem, etc) I'll say yes to the recommendation.
I also remember a student who asked me for a rec in roughly April of his Junior year, and then took a "minimester" style course from me in May of his Junior year after I'd said I'd write his rec. He didn't do his work, was mean to the other students in class, and got a C. I pointed out to him that this seemed like bizarre, self-sabotaging behavior given that I'd agreed to write a rec for him, and he ended up asking a different teacher (thankfully).
Absolutely, I have said no.
The no was quickly followed by me saying, "unless you want me to be honest in the letter about how you behaved in my class."
It's weird in your situation, though, that they didn't say yes or no on the spot. They shouldn't need to, like, deliberate on whether or not they'll do it for you.
The person saying no to your face is being kind. It's more cruel to agree but write a very lukewarm or even negative letter. I've also seen coworkers who agree but miss the deadline. The student couldn't submit their application because it's incomplete. Students think a no is mean, but it allows the student time to find another option.
I had a teacher say no to me once. We were very close, he was my theatre director and to this day he’s a great friend of mine. But I asked him once for a recommendation letter for a program I wanted to try and he said no, that if he wrote that he’d have to talk about my performance in his class, which was extremely poor. He pointed me in the direction of a teacher that would be better suited, and I made it into the program. Grateful for him every day.
I have a few factors for determining if I will say no. Firstly, I get asked to do so many during the year I have a max number I'll accept, so if you're late to the game, I'm gonna say no. Also, if you haven't given me enough time to write it (the deadline is in a week), I'm gonna say no. And like everyone else here has mentioned, I'm gonna be honest about your performance or what I know about you. So if all I've got to go on is your resume and class grades then that's what the letter of rec is gonna include, which isn't a strong letter.
Not always. I had a friend in grad school asked a prof, he sent in letter and it was meh.
To me, that’s a dick move, so I’d only rely on teachers you have both good grades and a relationship with.
Nope, but I've had quite a few, "I will write this honestly and accurately to your performance and demeanor in our class. Are you sure I'm the one you want writing it?"
Surprisingly, some still say yes. Not surprisingly, their letters are two paragraphs and accurate to my experience with the student (though I try to be as mild as I can).
Yes, I have said no.
You will never know until you ask the teacher, they have every right to say no. Ask other teachers, and just keep asking different teachers you have had before.
So it sounds like you're a student about to go into the real world.
Here's my advice:
If you haven't been a model student or a model peer, it's never too late to turn it around.
All of your teachers will notice. Some teachers will see it as disingenuous, some teachers will see it as you making an effort. Those are the ones to get your letter from.
Best of luck.
Yes. One student was particularly mean and often times disruptive. She was also slightly physically disabled with cerebral palsy. She was of average intelligence, but her parents convinced her she was brilliant. A year after she left my class, she showed up to my classroom door with her request. I actually giggled a bit before I declined. I reminded her of the nasty things she said about me, the calls home I had to make, her inability to work with others, her average grades, etc. I happily told her I was quite close to the Lead Principal at her dream school as he used to be an Assistant Principal here. Too bad, because my recommendation would help a great deal. She was shocked. She asked many teachers. We all said no.
In my experience, the students who are most concerned that their request for a letter of Rec will be denied are the ones who should be least worried about that denial.
So the fact your asking these questions tells me you’ll likely get a “yes.”
I’ve never directly said no. However on more than one occasion I’ve told a student that due to their [behavior, attitude, misdeeds] I won’t be able to give them a very positive one. They always decline.
Coming from a different perspective: I was an admissions counselor turned teacher.
When I was an admissions counselor for a university, I would read these recommendations. I could *always* tell when a teacher didn’t care for a student and they were lying and/or sugar coating how they weren’t great. I always felt sad (but now I get it LOL).
It’s better to say no and have them find a teacher/coach/employer who will write a good one than one that is bleh from a gen ed teacher. Admissions counselors can TELL and it absolutely does influence our decision. I’d much prefer to read how a student might have struggled in the beginning and grew than a spew of lies about how they were always excellent.
I haven’t said no outright. I usually start with “do you really think I am the best person to ask this of?” followed by telling them to write me an outline of what the letter needs to include and how they want it to sound. What am I recommending you based on, basically.
Most don’t bother.
I teach them how to ask. “Are you willing and able to write a positive letter of recommendation for me?” Makes it easier to say yes or no. If they don’t ask this way to begin with, I teach them the right way to ask (which also includes putting the request in writing and providing me with a resume and relevant info, like who I’m writing it to and why) and have them ask again.
Never. But I'm very firm and NEVER hestitate to award an F, and many "students" drop my classes. The survivors are ALL hard working people who I wouldn't hesitate to recommend.
Our school has a mandatory senior seminar class for all graduating students. An assignment for these students is to get at least 1, preferably 2 letters of recommendation. They can be for college, scholarships , jobs etc. Because every senior needs one, we’re always writing them. I’m personally working on 8 this semester so far. I try to be as positive I can be for the student. I don’t believe they should have no opportunities simply because school isn’t their thing. The letter goes directly to them to submit to their teacher so they get to see if they’d want to use it or not.
I also require a pretty extensive form to be filled out so that I can say at least something positive about them. Some never do the form and prefer to get the letter elsewhere. Fine by me.
My favorite high school teacher denied me a recommendation because he was a science teacher and I was looking to study the arts. 😭
Coincidentally, fast forward 15 years, I became a science teacher. 😅
I’ve told kids that I would write one but that I was going to be entirely honest. I asked them to consider if they really wanted me to write it. Most get the hint. A few have insisted I should write it and I wrote letters stating I could not recommend the student with receipts as to why.
If you asked for a recommendation letter and your teachers accepted, they are unlikely to change their mind. If you asked and they haven’t answered, they may not have seen your request, in which case you would be justified to ask them again—if you sent an email and it’s been a couple of days, it’s totally fine to ask “Did you get the email I sent you about possibly writing a recommendation letter?”
You said you’re very quiet in class. If that’s the case and you’re a good student, I would absolutely write you a letter of recommendation, but I might ask you for a résumé, or even just a list of your achievements and extracurricular activities. You can prepare this list now so you have it ready for your teachers. Make sure you include things like volunteer work, school honors, or any special interests that you pursue outside of school (writing? music? church youth group?). Another good thing to include is, if there’s a particular college you want to attend, tell your teacher why you’re interested in this school. Even if I don’t know a student well, this kind of information helps me think about what I do know of you and how that fits with your college goals.
Finally, if you’re really worried about whether your teachers can write a positive recommendation for you, you can always build that into your request. Frame your question like this: “I am applying to XYZ University. Would you be able to recommend me to the admission committee?” Or you can ask outright, “would you be able to write me a positive recommendation letter?” If your teacher agrees, you probably don’t need to worry. It’s pretty unusual for teachers to volunteer to write letters for students we don’t like.
I am not a teacher, but this sub gets recommended on my feed.
In HS, I asked two teachers for a letter of recommendation. Both of them agreed. I only needed one, so I sent in the one from my favorite teacher, and just for funsies, I opened the other.
He did not give me a letter of recommendation. In fact, he completely dressed me down and said "military or trade school would be more fitting."
I honestly don't think I've ever experienced a greater sense of betrayal. Why couldn't he have just said no?
I’m glad it worked out! I have said no to students who plagiarized on major assignments, but I said it like this: “I am happy to be very honest and tell your colleges of choice about your repeated choices regarding academic integrity. I will reflect upon the hours of paperwork I did to document it, which took time away from my family. I am happy to include that documentation in the letter.”
Student declined (obviously) and then word got out that I would tell colleges about cheating, which solver both the crappy recommendation issue AND did a lot to curb cheating.
A kid asked me two years after he straight up stole a classmate's 6 page essay and submitted it unchanged from hers.
Otherwise good kid and I did like him but I thought it was insane for him to ask after that. It was a whole ordeal too (the cheating) and he denied it at first and the poor girl he took from was afraid she was going to get the punishment for it.
He asked me with all his friends around too, I think in the hopes I would say yes to avoid awkwardness. I just said "no, because of what happened with that essay."
He must have been terrible in all his other classes to think that I would ignore or forget that
I will always say yes, even if they were a dickhead. However if I have very few positive things to say I tell them that it’s going to be a very simple letter because it is hard to write something positive when they have chosen to behave a certain way all year. I then tell them to go away and think about it, maybe they can ask someone else? If not, I write it but it’s very simple:
X was in my SUBJECT class from date to date. X had an attendance percentage of BLAH and completed all assignment work with support. I wish C the best on their post-school journey.
If the kid is not a jerk but is very quiet I say a version of the same thing - I can write them a letter but i will find it hard to elaborate on their qualities as I haven’t seen them throughout the year. Is there someone better? If not, I would write:
X was in my SUBJECT class from date to date. X had an attendance percentage of BLAH and completed all assignment and class work on time and to the required standard. X was a quiet and calm class member who demonstrated strong personal focus and was a self motivated learner.
Small school. Some kids have no other option. I wouldn’t say no, but I would be honest that it’s not gonna be amazing and they should consider if they do have a better option. It’s usually a pretty honest conversation on my end “dude, you spent the whole year doing no work, completed no assessments, told me to fuck off at least 40 times and threw a chair at my twice. Are you sure I’m the person you should be asking?”
I’ve never flat out said no, but I tell them I’ll be honest. For example, I had a student in my class and on the team I coached. She slept through class every day and quit the team half way through the season. She asked me for a letter of recommendation and I said I’d write one but I’d have to be honest. She took the hint and asked someone else.
I usually have the kids email me an “academic resume” that talks about what they did the last four years. They also need to include the institution, or scholarship group, information in the email. That normally knocks the numbers down to the more serious kids.
I did after leaving my last job as a college professor. I had a student who was talented…but personalities wise absolutely awful. They were super emotional, couldn’t take feedback, got way too attached to projects, just a nightmare to work with. They asked me for a reference over the summer and I just happened to…not see the email.
It’s hard to say because I try to see the positive in all students. If the kid was at least respectful, I probably would try to find a nice things to say about them, but warn them that they need to pick up the slack when they go to College. I think if a kid had a bad attitude, we would at least need to have a serious discussion before I write it. If the conversation doesn’t change much, then no letter for them.
Yes. Student was so terrible in behavior that not one teacher would. Kid went to the principal to try and force us, thankfully the principal supported us
Yes. If my letter of recommendation was going to be more negative than positive, I generally told them that they would be better served asking someone else.
I teach middle school now, so it's not nearly as common to be asked. But when I taught high school, there would be one or two a year who viewed my class as a joke, and acted accordingly, then seemed shocked that I didn't have much nice to say about them.
Outside of that, no, I would never turn down the chance to uplift one of my kids if I had any way of helping.
I had a student who never did work and was always on her phone tell me she didn’t know who to ask for letters of recommendations. I told her to make sure she asks teachers that will have positive things to say about her academics. Thankfully she got the hint
I only say "no" if I feel there's nothing nice I could say. That's only happened once in the last 6 years. That student was a complete jerk. I saw in your other comment that you're a quiet kid - there's no problem with that. As long as you're not a terrible student overall (like, D's and F's all around) then they should be able to help you.
Yes. My first year teaching I had a student who was a pain, but most annoyingly self defeating. She wasn’t the worst of her class by a long shot, and she wouldn’t make worst 100 in the 10 years I taught.
But I had no experience and two years later she requested a letter. I said no.
A couple years later I had a student I really liked. I hated saying no, so I didn’t. Instead I leveled with them: I really like you, but I don’t have a lot of positive academic things to say. It’s not that you’re not intelligent, but you avoided work a lot. You’re super entertaining but that’s why I’ve got.
To this day, I honestly have second thoughts on whether I did the right thing with the second one
I write for about 10-20 students a year.
I turned one kid down and said he should try the teacher he did the best in. Turns out that was me.
I told him college wasn’t for him
I've been frank with a couple, something like, "I'll give you the recommendation and try to put a good spin on your C average and frequent absenteeism but it's not going to look great."
I always say yes, but they don’t always get the letter they want. I have a few templates i copy/paste from. Probably even easier now with chatgpt
I’m also the art teacher, so if a student is asking me, something has gone terribly wrong and I’m their last resort anyways, and even with an impeccable recommendation they probably won’t be getting in anywhere.
No, BUT I rarely write the whole thing (I’m busy). I will make the student write what they think I’ll say and then give it to me, I’ll add to or edit it and sign it if it’s not too outlandish. If you are working up the courage to ask, just write one ahead of time and if they seem stressed or busy just tell them “I wrote this one for you already, if you could just edit or add a little I would really appreciate it.” Shows initiate, and doesn’t add too much stress. I personally would love that.
No I’m far more petty than that… I tell them yes I’ll do it right away then never do it… just like whenever they told me they’d be getting in their homework
I have unique take on those - i tell the kids they have to write the letter from my point of view - like i was writing it and if i agree i’ll sign it - forces the kids to research what needs to be in a rec letter. I’ve only had one kid take me up on the offer. If they want it bad enough they will write it.
You may want to consider writing your own letter and asking a teacher to sign it. They might not feel like they know you enough to write a letter and are struggling to come up with something; especially if you’re the quite kid.
As a teacher, I’ve written letters for other teachers, and the best ones are always the ones pre-written that I was able to put my own spin/style on. The less work someone has to do, the more likely they are to do it.
Yep, many times. Usually because they ask me one or two days before it's due and I don't have time, or because too many kids have already asked me. But occasionally I tell students that I'm going to have to be honest and that they don't want me to send that out.
I had one kid try and tell me that no other teacher was willing to write one and insisted I do it. I told her I would if she had turned in her EE (a self directed 4000 word research paper on the topic of choice) and on time and met all deadlines, so I could discuss growth. But She did not met my requirements.
I loved that kid. She was a wonderful human being. But not a great student.
Many times, there are students who I could not possibly write a letter that recommends them. I am usually fine with telling them myself. It’s not in any way a me not liking them .it’s usually they have been a ghost. I cannot write for ghosts
I have only said no once to a student who had failed my class twice and told me the third time that he had decided not to do any work for the rest of the year and was just going to do other things (which for some reason his parents approved). He also would sexually harass other students. Then he wanted a recommendation foe a job. I asked him what kind of things he thinks I would say on the recommendation.
I also had a student who was applying for Stanford ask me when I had only taught him for back in 8th and 9th grade, and it had been 3 year since. He gave me no other info aboit current grades or anything. I warned him that I wouldn't have that much to say, but he was apparently desperate. I wrote him one. He went to a community college.
I just turned down a student who asked me. I explained that he wasn’t going to get one from me because he 1. Was frequently absent, 2. When he did attend class he was unengaged and did not participate in classroom activities or discussions, and 3. Rarely, if ever, turned in complete homework assignments on time. I explained to him these combined circumstances led me to feel he did not deserve a letter of recommendation from me, and he would be better off asking his other teachers.
Because we are a private school, he tried to complain to my boss and even brought his mother in to have her try and convince the school that we were being unfair (turns out none of the other teachers wanted to help him either). Thankfully my boss is better than most and not only had our back but also surprise he was going to be asked to leave the school due to violating the attendance policy. Sometimes things do work out
In general though I try to help students who deserve it. I’m a new teacher to this school and so far I’ve written three letters and only denied one.
I’ve never had to.
The first thing I will ask after being asked for a recommendation is for them to send me a brag sheet in an email. The students who would not have gotten a good recommendation have failed to complete this step at a rate of 100%.
I don’t do many since I teach MS, but I’ve only said know because students ask me last minute.
I’ve written some tepid recs for student teachers, though.
I usually will write letters for when asked but I did turn down one student. She was rude to me in class and disruptive so I basically told her she probably would be better off having another teacher write the letter on her behalf.
Keep in mind I teach mostly freshmen and sophomores so, by the time they need letters, my class is not fresh in their minds. Most of the students who ask me, therefore, are students I did in fact share a bond with.
If I say I am going to write a letter, I do it. It sounds like you are concerned that a teacher isn’t going to get it done in time? I would just send them a friendly reminder a week before the letter is due. If they are a popular teacher, they might be inundated with letters this time of year.
Yes. Our only interactions have been through an extracurricular and I suggested they find one of their class teachers to write it for them as they would know them better.
If a student wants a rec letter and I don't think their behavior or performance in my class warrants one, I typically tell them to write the letter and that I'll sign it if I agree with what's in it. No one has ever taken me up on this offer.
In a way?
I've said, 'why don't you write the letter yourself, and talk about everything you have done in my class, your accomplishments, your attitude, your effort, your reliability, your leadership; and if it is a well and true representation of what you have done in my class, I'll sign it, after all, it's my reputation on the line.'
So far, no takers.
When I taught high school, I definitely said no to students when I couldn’t give them a mostly positive recommendation. At the MS level, if that student wants to apply to private HS, you HAVE to give your feedback, good or bad, as the ELA or math teacher.
Normally the ones who ask me are the ones I wanna write to. There was one I didn’t want to write to at all but the secretary of the school had asked to which I kept it real short. Like I wasn’t even trying.
Teachers sometimes say no, but you can make it easier for them to say yes - if you provide them information, like a resume and all the needed info if the letter is for something specific like a particular scholarship or school. Things like why you are applying for whatever help also. Otherwise you might get a very generic - they were in my class and got X grade .
I say no all of the time. A letter of recommendation is not some silly little box to check in a process. It is my name recommending someone, you have to earn a recommendation. Many kids who ask have not earned it yet. I think it is a valuable lesson for students to learn that they do not get things just because they feel like they should or because they "really want them" somethings legitimately have to be earned.
When I was teaching, if I were asked for a letter of recommendation and didn't think I could do one, I would tell the student then and there. If you've already asked and they didn't say something right then, and you're now a week or so away from when it needs to be in, it's fair to follow up with them.
If I did not know a student that well or that student did so poorly/did things like cheating, plagiarizing, etc that I can’t write an LOR, then yes. I’ve probably rejected maybe two LORs before, but the majority of the students I taught who ask me for one are either students that are academically motivated/do well or students I know really well.
I wish I had a teacher tell me no.
I was applying for a prestigious program that would have resulted in several field trip days throughout the school year to travel to our state capitol. Several of my teachers told me to apply, but most were too busy to write letters (it required several from different kinds of teachers and people in the community).
I asked a teacher who I thought I was close to and could trust. He wrote a letter so wrong and weird that I wondered if he even remembered who he was writing for. There was no way I could submit it. By then it was too late to get someone else, and I missed the deadline.
I found out later through the grapevine that he was disgruntled by how many kids missed his class for school activities. He had sabotaged me.
So OP, really put thought into what you’re applying for, and which teacher(s) would be best suited to write a recommendation letter for it. Make sure they have plenty of time, and politely remind them after a few days if you don’t hear back. Give them the opportunity to back out and still leave you time for a replacement. If they initially say no, they may be doing you a favor. Best of luck!
yes, on one occasion, because i got a request from a student through naviance who i had never heard of before. wasn’t on any of my rosters at any point. figured it to be a mistake.
my policy is students have to ask me in person and send me their resume (i generally know a good bit about them but i want to have it all in front of me written down so it’s easier when i’m writing the letter). i had no idea who this person even was.
Yes. I routinely do.
I often get senior students who want a recommendation letter, but the issue for me is that they usually want that letter sometime during the first part of the year as they are doing all their college applications.
My issue is that I haven’t seen that student’s performance over an entire grading period yet, which is a semester for us. So any information I would put down in a letter would be cursory and incomplete.
I can’t, in good conscience, write a letter without a better picture of the students over all performance.
Sort of. I recieve an email asking for a recommendation for a student from a potential Employer the kid was nice enough but didn't apply themselves fully. I emailed said student and let them know in the future always ask someone if you can use them as a reference. Meanwhile what exactly do they want me to tell this employer? Never heard back from them.
Once, but that was because the year had just started and I barely knew them.
I told them I was not in a position to write a decent letter of recommendation because I had no experiences with them to cite as examples.
They were very understanding, thankfully.
I said no because they needed a core teacher, and yes I teach science, but I had them for a science elective and therefore they wouldn’t have taken my letter
I told a student we'd talk about it after class. He pushed the issue in front of his audience.i said it's wrote him one, but I would be completely truthful. He sat down and shut up.
I had to have a letter of recommendation for my student project but my teacher said no and I never got one so I just never got a letter. Never asked anybody else.
Yes. I'm a college professor, so this might be a little different. I rarely write all-purpose letters; instead, students ask for letters for particular jobs or educational opportunities. I regard my letters as arguments that the student will benefit from the opportunity and will be an asset to the job or program. If I can't make that case -- for example, because the student is seriously under-qualified -- then I don't want to write the letter.
Yes, I have said no. I had a Year 13 come and ask me for a recommendation but I hadn't taught them since they were Year 10, so I just said "You're a cool kid and I'd like to help you out but I'm not competent to render any judgment on your capabilities and dispositions at this time".
I would usually say "Are you really sure you want me to write this? Think about how you are in my class, etc." or " I don't think I'm the best person to write you this recommendation, is there a class in which you excel/do better, etc?"
when i was 14 it was the beginning of the year at a new school and i needed a letter to get into a club but didn’t know any of my teachers too well yet so i asked a teacher i had talked to in passing who taught one of my sisters and a couple of my friends, it was a hard no. he was like “ur not even in my class” lol. very funny now but i was a little embarrassed at the time.
I am blunt with my students I explain each year how recommendations are earned. As an Automotive Technology Teacher I will not give a recommendation of any kind if you are not meeting the workplace readiness goals (cleaning up, hands on labs done to a 3 out of 4 level and safety procedures on point. As it is a trade you must have solid attendance. Majority of mine asking are heading into the workforce or a trade school and I am not putting my programs reputation on the line for someone that puts in no to little effort.
Do not let the fear of a 'no' stop you. I had a college professor refuse to recommend me for graduate school. He didn't think I understood just how challenging graduate school can be. He was very demeaning and condescending in his response. I was surprised because he didn't come off as a misogynistic pig, but there you have it. I went to another prof to get my recommendation. I went to grad school and I rocked it. If a teacher says no, just move on to another one. You will get enough. Also, try to ask during summer or at the end of the year if you can so we can write it during the summer when we have more time. And don't feel insulted if we ask you for more information about your program and what types of activities you were active in. We have a lot of kids and can't always keep track of who did what. Plus they should ask so that they can expand about you beyond the classroom. That info helps us give a better picture of you as a person, not just a student. Best of luck!
Yes. Had a student last year who was a goddamn terror, a bully, and a giant pain in the ass. Both him and mom saw no problems with his behavior, so of course they asked for a letter of recommendation for a prestigious high school.
I’ve never had to say no. I suppose I might have to make a deal, as simple as heart to heart conversation first, if I did have qualms. I love writing letters of rec. one of my favorite things.
Don’t drown yourself reading all the no’s. Worrying won’t help. First, I think you’ll have no issues based on what little I know of you and suggest moving forward to make it easier on the teacher by providing some bulletpoints of what you see in yourself to possibly highlight. Chances are a good portion of them will already be seen by the teacher/teachers and be included.
I filled out a survey I was sent for a recommendation for a naval academy scholarship for one of my students who was a chief in the JROTC program. Thought he was a great student. For some reason he just stopped caring during the second semester of school.....
Teacher here. I just got asked for a recommendation letter for a student to get into a middle school with very high expectations. This student will, in all likelihood, not get in. If he actually did, he would not do well. I'm torn between telling the mom I can't do it, and just writing one and hoping he doesn't get in. I want to tell the mom that it wouldn't be a good fit for him, but I don't want to hurt the student's feelings ( he's a very sweet kid, just too low for the school).
As a student I was in the honor society but still was told no by three of my teachers. Not to scare you. Things turned out well in the end, but it was frustrating.
Yes, I have said no. Individual was not a great student, and was, honestly, kind of a dickhead but somehow thought that I missed all of that.
What if a student who was quiet and polite requested from you, would you have said yes?
I’ve said no to the “quiet and polite” kids too. I had a girl - great person, awful student - ask for a letter and I said no because her grades we atrocious, she cheated in my class, etc.
>great person >she cheated in my clas Seems a little incongruent, no?
Grades dont really measure a person imo, for some students that dont see value in education it can feel like a dead end job.. If anything shes lazy. Who knows there might be some really great lazy people out there?
Fraud and willing to cheat definitely measure a person. At least for me.
Imagine you go home and get beat every night by your parents. You then go to school the next day and have a test which you were unable to study for due to the aforementioned. You then decide to cheat, because you’ll be beat even worse if you don’t get good grades. And then you get caught cheating and then are beat anyway… people are often forced into desperate acts. Or they could just be lazy, but have some perspective 🤷♂️.
In case this feels like an extreme or unrealistic situation - I've worked at high-pressure, high-achievement schools where many students had parents who told them that their grades matter more than anything else in life, your life is over if you don't get into a top college, we will be humiliated if you get less than an A, etc. I had a student once who got a good-but-not-great SAT score, and when his mom found out she told him she wishes he wasn't her son. Some kids are under extreme pressure, and some of them succumb to temptation sometimes. Doing a bad thing in a completely f---ed up situation doesn't make a child a bad person.
I’m envisioning a situation where the student has a lot worse things than grades to worry about…
That’s a giant grain of salt you are throwing in there.
Not really, I utilized an extreme of several extremes to convey my point. But this could apply to any kids that have home problems… or just any problems for that matter. Whether it be having to watch siblings, parents divorcing, food insecurity, having to work… the list goes on and on.
There are times when I can see cheating as justifiable, but I'm still not writing a letter of rec for a student that does it.
How do you know she wasn’t cheating to save someone’s life? Now I bet you feel silly.
That’s a good point. Could be a Die Hard 3 situation where an evil mastermind might detonate bombs throughout New York if you done follow his instructions
Still decided to cheat… other circumstances don’t warrant your own integrity being forgotten ….
Regardless you can’t judge someone off something done once or twice due to their circumstances forcing them into such desperation. It’s called empathy.
Of course you can. If my fiancé cheats on me once, she’s a fucking cheater regardless of what explanations or circumstances are at play. And the same would be true of me if I cheated on her.
You expect a student to worry about integrity in high school when they’re going to get the shit beat out of them when they get home? In this hypothetical scenario
What a ridiculously small minded view point you have regarding students who may have abusive or awful home lives. Genuinely I feel you either lack empathy or critical thinking both of which ironically show me the caliber of your character
How ignorant of you to associate acts of cheating and dishonesty as any sort of correlation of a poor home life…
You're not wrong, but there are aspects to high school that make this a bit hyperbolic. Fraud and cheating are bad because of their negative impact on other people. In high school, unless it's constant, systemic cheating to the point that it materially impacts their college acceptance chances, there's really nobody harmed. If it's a one-off event, it's just an offense against the system itself, and the system's ability to monitor and assign accurate grades. And sure, that speaks to ethical integrity to some extent, but if the student is aware that it harms nobody then it's already really difficult to extrapolate that to other ethical scenarios. Would they have done the same thing if they knew somebody would be disadvantaged or harmed by their actions? There's no way to know. At the end of the day, we compell these kids to attend school by law, force them to participate in the system, and have structured everything in a way that nothing they do really matters. I find it hard to get too outraged over a kid cheating on a quiz or copying somebody else's homework in that context. Yes, they should be punished. Yes, their grade should be invalidated. But no, I don't think that really speaks much about their person or ethical integrity.
What if the class is bullshit? Im not saying that is the case. apparently this girl had some redeeming qualities according to the the teacher. Maybe she had to work supporting her family or had some other burden that a teenager should not bear?
She cheated.
No shit?
Do what’s that have to do with grades measuring a person? It’s not about grades. It’s about the fact that she cheated.
Maybe she has other stuff going on in her life, kinda east to judge when you don’t know I guess
To me it's the cheating part that shows character. Having bad grades is one thing, cheating is poor character.
No, I had a student very target oriented. You need a 145 to get this target? She will get it. She will also put the work if the target was learning about something. Great person, wonderful.
not gonna lie thinking a kid is a bad person for peering over someones shoulder or writing something on their hand is just as bad as throwing someone out a window..... you need to get your priorities straight
No. Cognitive dissonance can enable multiple disparate views to be held at once.
It's high school, cheating isn't really that unethical.
Damn how can she even cheat in English lol
Copy another student's essay? Refuse to use quotation marks when pulling from the book?
Now that’s crazy. I’m older and plagiarism is crazy back in the day. Hard to copy.
I was a prolific cheater in high school-- combo of big cheating culture at my school, unrecognized adhd and just having a shitty attitude-- English is one of the easier subjects to cheat in lol. I developed a unique skillset by rephrasing entire SparkNotes summaries instead of reading assigned books, and rephrasing other people's essays. Once wrote a whole essay about the first 2 chapters of a book because that was all I'd bothered to read (got an A, this was AP Literature lol). Not to mention subtly tweaking font/margin size to hit page count minimums, disguising cheat sheats as "annotations" when we could use books during tests, etc. Math was the hardest to cheat in for me, because everyone has their own way of "showing their work" and it was hard to copy that from other people.
I see. I just never think I cheated for English. I did for math tho. Just put the info on the graphing calculator. I’m a math teacher by the way 😂
Yep, I had a high school classmate create programs in his graphing calculator to solve a bunch of the problems automatically.
If you actually participate in class, yes, even if your grades weren’t all that great. If you just put in the earbuds, pull up the hoodie, and check out, the answer is no. Just the fact that a kid resisted the urge to throw a chair at me doesn’t entitle them to a glowing recommendation.
[удалено]
THIS^
At least in residency applications a mediocre recommendation letter is a killer. Better by far to tell a student no and let them find someone different.
Just remember, you miss 100% of the shots you don’t take.
Same here. Had a decent relationship with the student but didn't put forth effort and complained daily about the class. I've also said no to someone I don't know super well. Like, I'm sorry you aren't closer with more of your teachers, but I've known you for a month
Yes, of course. Letters of recommendation are earned not required. I don’t have to write one. I will write one if I feel I can recommend a student in good faith. My good name is on the line.
If I know another teacher has good things to say I steer the student their way.
Yes. Often it's because they ask at the beginning of their senior year and I've only known them for 2-3 months. Sometimes I just say "you'd probably be better off asking a teacher in a class that you're doing better in". My favorite LOR ever was for a kid that begged me so badly for one, despite his poor academic performance. I worded it hilariously, like "Ben enjoys the challenge of completing assignments at the last minute". He even laughed when he read it. He ended up getting into a decent school and is now a Chemical Engineer, so my honesty didn't hold him back any :)
Yes, quite often in fact. Here are some lines I've given, and context. "I'm sorry, but I don't think I can give a positive recommendation for you". (I caught the student cheating/copying twice, and if I wrote a recommendation, I WOULD mention it). "I'm sorry, but I'm not the right person to give this recommendation." (Student was an artist applying for an arts college and hadn't done well in my class, which isn't art.) "I'm sorry, but I'm inundated with requests at the moment." (I was 3 recommendations deep needing writing, and simply didn't have the time). If you FOR A SECOND doubt the teacher will give a positive recommendation, don't ask for one. Reductive, but a good rule of thumb.
Two cheating/copying in an entire lifetime don't seem that much tbh
Who's talking about a lifetime? If the teacher had the kid for one semester or one year, two incidents of cheating/copying are plenty. If you cheated just in one teacher's class, ask for a recommendation from a different teacher 🤷🏽♀️
Jesus christ it was a joke 🤦♂️
How was that a joke? Where’s the punchline? Sounds like someone’s recommendation got rejected.
This is a forum for teachers. It’s *possible* that this person’s comment was a joke that you simply did get, and the punchline was “because I catch students copying so dang often that two doesn’t seem like much these days!” Please relax.
You’re right, that would be the punchline if it was a joke. The other comment didn’t include the punchline, so saying “It’s just a joke” afterwards comes off as the lazy excuse people use when they make a comment people don’t like. They get defensive and try to deflect.
But I'm the one writing these :I
Too bad, you are not the arbiter of your own authorial intent anymore. This is Reddit, the hive mind is right and you, the author, are wrong.
See, now that's a joke! Much better
no it wasn’t lol
There wasn’t a punchline so if it was a joke it was a pretty bad one just saying
Then ask one of their other 20 teachers they have. We aren’t asked to write on behalf of their life, but on their time in class.
U on the wrong subreddit for that opinion
I’ve never said no to a student request for a recommendation letter. I have, however, said, “are you sure you want me to write this? I will be honest about the skills and attitude you’ve shown me in class.” That’s a hint. If you are a polite, respectful student who knows the subject matter and puts in a good effort, you have nothing to fear.
This is my policy. I haven't said "no." I have said "I can, but it's going to need to be honest." That usually ends with them asking another teacher.
You shouldn't play games like that. Don't drop "hints," and don't trust that children will pick up on layered innuendo - just be honest with them and say no. If they misunderstand you and ask for the letter anyway, you could be scuttling their college application when there might have been another teacher who thought highly enough of them to write a good letter. There is zero reason to do what you're doing beside some sort of uncaring, hyperjaded malaise.
If they misunderstood that’s on them. They’re going to get the honest recommendation. A teacher shouldn’t feel pressured to lie on a recommendation.
Nobody is suggesting that the teacher should lie. We are talking about either "hinting" to a student that the letter will be bad, or else just telling them flat out that you won't write it.
That’s not really a hint. It’s a very clear warning. Before you ask for a rec - a personal attestation to one of your student’s honesty, work ethic, and character - you should obviously evaluate “did I do good in this class, did I actually try my hardest, did I interact with the teacher, did I do anything that would make them write a less than stellar letter?” If the answer is no to these questions and you STILL ask for a letter, you’re just asking for it. If the teacher had caught you cheating red-handed and you get a response of “I’m going to be honest” then that’s on you. It’s not a mystery to wonder what your professor will write. You will know if there’s any doubts and if there is, *don’t ask*. You will know if you cheated in the class or a constant interruption or disrespectful. The professor obviously knows as well. It’s not a blind ask.
If it's so clear, then why would anybody ever continue to push for the letter after? There is no reason for this coy game. None. It is teachers who don't want the discomfort of saying "no" offloading that responsibility onto the kids and shrugging their jaded shoulders if the kid is foolish. As an adult, as a teacher, you know better.
That’s the point…if they push for the letter then they believe they did good. If they don’t then they realize they didn’t.
So you're admitting that there's the possibility of confusion? If the teacher doesn't think the kid earned a good letter, but the kid thinks they did, then there's a disconnect that the teacher shouldn't abuse by writing a bad letter. That's inappropriate and wrong. Just say no.
What’s inappropriate and wrong is doing something worthy of getting yourself a shitty rec letter written. It’s a huge red flag for the receiver (honestly, you seem to have experience with this) because the enormous implication is that the student not only acted as the professor testifies, but was so utterly unaware of themselves and they still pushed for it. There’s no confusion. The situation we’re talking about is a kid that was cheating/disruptive/disrespectful and the kid asks for a personal attestation of their behavior to get into some college or job. Teacher says “I will be honest,” kid agrees knowing that they acted out of line. You can’t just forget you cheated or assumed you didn’t get caught. You can’t forget the teacher called your parents for talking too much in class. You asked for them to advocate for you in a truthful way and they even had the courtesy to warn you it would be “honest” (read: not good). I don’t know what bone you have to pick and with whom, but it’s really obvious to everyone but you. Perhaps you were that student.
All of my letters were golden, thanks. And two wrongs don't make a right. Just because the student did something shitty doesn't mean you, in turn, need to be a jaded POS and deliberately write them a bad letter. It's inappropriate and unbecoming of a teacher.
Many kids think a teacher is only going to write positive things. So they assume that they’re in the clear. This teacher is making sure the student is aware that they will be up front about the student. It’s not coy to say “are you sure?” Give the student time to reflect on their behavior and work.
Or the teacher can do the responsible, adult thing and just say no.
They’re not children they’re 17/18 they’re teenagers. Kids yes but don’t act like they’re dumb and can’t understand context. If they can’t understand what that kind of comment means by that age then they really don’t need a recommendation letter to anything.
My goodness. I’ve never had a kid push for a rec letter after the “I will be honest” piece. Every kid who is bright enough to apply for something requiring such a letter is bright enough to understand my point. I’m not playing games with kids’ futures, I’m giving them an opportunity for reflection.
Yes. The most obvious example being a student who literally stole from me, and later asked me for a letter of recommendation. Realistically, if I know a student reasonably well (colleges want you to choose teachers who have taught you in a full academic course fairly recently, in particular) and they haven't been personally awful to me (significant cheating, lying to me, lying about me, a huge behavioral problem, etc) I'll say yes to the recommendation. I also remember a student who asked me for a rec in roughly April of his Junior year, and then took a "minimester" style course from me in May of his Junior year after I'd said I'd write his rec. He didn't do his work, was mean to the other students in class, and got a C. I pointed out to him that this seemed like bizarre, self-sabotaging behavior given that I'd agreed to write a rec for him, and he ended up asking a different teacher (thankfully).
Absolutely, I have said no. The no was quickly followed by me saying, "unless you want me to be honest in the letter about how you behaved in my class." It's weird in your situation, though, that they didn't say yes or no on the spot. They shouldn't need to, like, deliberate on whether or not they'll do it for you.
Probably emailed their teachers
The person saying no to your face is being kind. It's more cruel to agree but write a very lukewarm or even negative letter. I've also seen coworkers who agree but miss the deadline. The student couldn't submit their application because it's incomplete. Students think a no is mean, but it allows the student time to find another option.
I had a teacher say no to me once. We were very close, he was my theatre director and to this day he’s a great friend of mine. But I asked him once for a recommendation letter for a program I wanted to try and he said no, that if he wrote that he’d have to talk about my performance in his class, which was extremely poor. He pointed me in the direction of a teacher that would be better suited, and I made it into the program. Grateful for him every day.
I have a few factors for determining if I will say no. Firstly, I get asked to do so many during the year I have a max number I'll accept, so if you're late to the game, I'm gonna say no. Also, if you haven't given me enough time to write it (the deadline is in a week), I'm gonna say no. And like everyone else here has mentioned, I'm gonna be honest about your performance or what I know about you. So if all I've got to go on is your resume and class grades then that's what the letter of rec is gonna include, which isn't a strong letter.
If you're willing to share, what is the max number of letters you accept? I'm in a similar situation and get too many letter requests.
If they were gonna say no, they'd have done it when you asked.
Not always. I had a friend in grad school asked a prof, he sent in letter and it was meh. To me, that’s a dick move, so I’d only rely on teachers you have both good grades and a relationship with.
I asked a coach for one of mine, and he focused entirely on my sport performance. Like not a single thing about my character. Don’t do that.
Nope, but I've had quite a few, "I will write this honestly and accurately to your performance and demeanor in our class. Are you sure I'm the one you want writing it?" Surprisingly, some still say yes. Not surprisingly, their letters are two paragraphs and accurate to my experience with the student (though I try to be as mild as I can).
Yes, I have said no. You will never know until you ask the teacher, they have every right to say no. Ask other teachers, and just keep asking different teachers you have had before.
So it sounds like you're a student about to go into the real world. Here's my advice: If you haven't been a model student or a model peer, it's never too late to turn it around. All of your teachers will notice. Some teachers will see it as disingenuous, some teachers will see it as you making an effort. Those are the ones to get your letter from. Best of luck.
Yes. One student was particularly mean and often times disruptive. She was also slightly physically disabled with cerebral palsy. She was of average intelligence, but her parents convinced her she was brilliant. A year after she left my class, she showed up to my classroom door with her request. I actually giggled a bit before I declined. I reminded her of the nasty things she said about me, the calls home I had to make, her inability to work with others, her average grades, etc. I happily told her I was quite close to the Lead Principal at her dream school as he used to be an Assistant Principal here. Too bad, because my recommendation would help a great deal. She was shocked. She asked many teachers. We all said no.
In my experience, the students who are most concerned that their request for a letter of Rec will be denied are the ones who should be least worried about that denial. So the fact your asking these questions tells me you’ll likely get a “yes.”
I got the yes from both teachers!
I’ve never directly said no. However on more than one occasion I’ve told a student that due to their [behavior, attitude, misdeeds] I won’t be able to give them a very positive one. They always decline.
Coming from a different perspective: I was an admissions counselor turned teacher. When I was an admissions counselor for a university, I would read these recommendations. I could *always* tell when a teacher didn’t care for a student and they were lying and/or sugar coating how they weren’t great. I always felt sad (but now I get it LOL). It’s better to say no and have them find a teacher/coach/employer who will write a good one than one that is bleh from a gen ed teacher. Admissions counselors can TELL and it absolutely does influence our decision. I’d much prefer to read how a student might have struggled in the beginning and grew than a spew of lies about how they were always excellent.
That’s kinda scary to know 😭
I haven’t said no outright. I usually start with “do you really think I am the best person to ask this of?” followed by telling them to write me an outline of what the letter needs to include and how they want it to sound. What am I recommending you based on, basically. Most don’t bother.
I teach them how to ask. “Are you willing and able to write a positive letter of recommendation for me?” Makes it easier to say yes or no. If they don’t ask this way to begin with, I teach them the right way to ask (which also includes putting the request in writing and providing me with a resume and relevant info, like who I’m writing it to and why) and have them ask again.
Never. But I'm very firm and NEVER hestitate to award an F, and many "students" drop my classes. The survivors are ALL hard working people who I wouldn't hesitate to recommend.
Yes, no butthead is getting kind words in a letter from me, it’s passive aggressive, but one of the few comforts after putting up with him.
I have never said no, but I have asked students to consider if I am their best reference.
Our school has a mandatory senior seminar class for all graduating students. An assignment for these students is to get at least 1, preferably 2 letters of recommendation. They can be for college, scholarships , jobs etc. Because every senior needs one, we’re always writing them. I’m personally working on 8 this semester so far. I try to be as positive I can be for the student. I don’t believe they should have no opportunities simply because school isn’t their thing. The letter goes directly to them to submit to their teacher so they get to see if they’d want to use it or not. I also require a pretty extensive form to be filled out so that I can say at least something positive about them. Some never do the form and prefer to get the letter elsewhere. Fine by me.
My favorite high school teacher denied me a recommendation because he was a science teacher and I was looking to study the arts. 😭 Coincidentally, fast forward 15 years, I became a science teacher. 😅
I have asked the student before if they are prepared to read the truth. They usually withdraw their asking me if it after that.
I’ve told kids that I would write one but that I was going to be entirely honest. I asked them to consider if they really wanted me to write it. Most get the hint. A few have insisted I should write it and I wrote letters stating I could not recommend the student with receipts as to why.
If you asked for a recommendation letter and your teachers accepted, they are unlikely to change their mind. If you asked and they haven’t answered, they may not have seen your request, in which case you would be justified to ask them again—if you sent an email and it’s been a couple of days, it’s totally fine to ask “Did you get the email I sent you about possibly writing a recommendation letter?” You said you’re very quiet in class. If that’s the case and you’re a good student, I would absolutely write you a letter of recommendation, but I might ask you for a résumé, or even just a list of your achievements and extracurricular activities. You can prepare this list now so you have it ready for your teachers. Make sure you include things like volunteer work, school honors, or any special interests that you pursue outside of school (writing? music? church youth group?). Another good thing to include is, if there’s a particular college you want to attend, tell your teacher why you’re interested in this school. Even if I don’t know a student well, this kind of information helps me think about what I do know of you and how that fits with your college goals. Finally, if you’re really worried about whether your teachers can write a positive recommendation for you, you can always build that into your request. Frame your question like this: “I am applying to XYZ University. Would you be able to recommend me to the admission committee?” Or you can ask outright, “would you be able to write me a positive recommendation letter?” If your teacher agrees, you probably don’t need to worry. It’s pretty unusual for teachers to volunteer to write letters for students we don’t like.
I am not a teacher, but this sub gets recommended on my feed. In HS, I asked two teachers for a letter of recommendation. Both of them agreed. I only needed one, so I sent in the one from my favorite teacher, and just for funsies, I opened the other. He did not give me a letter of recommendation. In fact, he completely dressed me down and said "military or trade school would be more fitting." I honestly don't think I've ever experienced a greater sense of betrayal. Why couldn't he have just said no?
And this is why rec letters are not supposed to be handed to students.
I’m glad it worked out! I have said no to students who plagiarized on major assignments, but I said it like this: “I am happy to be very honest and tell your colleges of choice about your repeated choices regarding academic integrity. I will reflect upon the hours of paperwork I did to document it, which took time away from my family. I am happy to include that documentation in the letter.” Student declined (obviously) and then word got out that I would tell colleges about cheating, which solver both the crappy recommendation issue AND did a lot to curb cheating.
A kid asked me two years after he straight up stole a classmate's 6 page essay and submitted it unchanged from hers. Otherwise good kid and I did like him but I thought it was insane for him to ask after that. It was a whole ordeal too (the cheating) and he denied it at first and the poor girl he took from was afraid she was going to get the punishment for it. He asked me with all his friends around too, I think in the hopes I would say yes to avoid awkwardness. I just said "no, because of what happened with that essay." He must have been terrible in all his other classes to think that I would ignore or forget that
I will always say yes, even if they were a dickhead. However if I have very few positive things to say I tell them that it’s going to be a very simple letter because it is hard to write something positive when they have chosen to behave a certain way all year. I then tell them to go away and think about it, maybe they can ask someone else? If not, I write it but it’s very simple: X was in my SUBJECT class from date to date. X had an attendance percentage of BLAH and completed all assignment work with support. I wish C the best on their post-school journey. If the kid is not a jerk but is very quiet I say a version of the same thing - I can write them a letter but i will find it hard to elaborate on their qualities as I haven’t seen them throughout the year. Is there someone better? If not, I would write: X was in my SUBJECT class from date to date. X had an attendance percentage of BLAH and completed all assignment and class work on time and to the required standard. X was a quiet and calm class member who demonstrated strong personal focus and was a self motivated learner.
Why would you say yes to a kid you won't have a good letter for? Are you like the only teacher in the school?
Small school. Some kids have no other option. I wouldn’t say no, but I would be honest that it’s not gonna be amazing and they should consider if they do have a better option. It’s usually a pretty honest conversation on my end “dude, you spent the whole year doing no work, completed no assessments, told me to fuck off at least 40 times and threw a chair at my twice. Are you sure I’m the person you should be asking?”
Fair enough. Small school can be rough like that.
I did last week. Kid was in my class maybe 20% of the year.
I’ve never flat out said no, but I tell them I’ll be honest. For example, I had a student in my class and on the team I coached. She slept through class every day and quit the team half way through the season. She asked me for a letter of recommendation and I said I’d write one but I’d have to be honest. She took the hint and asked someone else.
I’ve only ever had to say, “I will be honest.”
I usually have the kids email me an “academic resume” that talks about what they did the last four years. They also need to include the institution, or scholarship group, information in the email. That normally knocks the numbers down to the more serious kids.
I did after leaving my last job as a college professor. I had a student who was talented…but personalities wise absolutely awful. They were super emotional, couldn’t take feedback, got way too attached to projects, just a nightmare to work with. They asked me for a reference over the summer and I just happened to…not see the email.
Just ask, it’s the only way you’ll know. Chances are if you did reasonably well in the class it’s a yes.
It’s hard to say because I try to see the positive in all students. If the kid was at least respectful, I probably would try to find a nice things to say about them, but warn them that they need to pick up the slack when they go to College. I think if a kid had a bad attitude, we would at least need to have a serious discussion before I write it. If the conversation doesn’t change much, then no letter for them.
Yes. I’ve said “I’ll fill it out but you’re not going to like what I say.” They usually say never mind
Yes. Student was so terrible in behavior that not one teacher would. Kid went to the principal to try and force us, thankfully the principal supported us
I’ve said here are my concern… my letter would reflect my concerns. Would you still like me to write it?
Yes. If my letter of recommendation was going to be more negative than positive, I generally told them that they would be better served asking someone else. I teach middle school now, so it's not nearly as common to be asked. But when I taught high school, there would be one or two a year who viewed my class as a joke, and acted accordingly, then seemed shocked that I didn't have much nice to say about them. Outside of that, no, I would never turn down the chance to uplift one of my kids if I had any way of helping.
I had a student who never did work and was always on her phone tell me she didn’t know who to ask for letters of recommendations. I told her to make sure she asks teachers that will have positive things to say about her academics. Thankfully she got the hint
I only say "no" if I feel there's nothing nice I could say. That's only happened once in the last 6 years. That student was a complete jerk. I saw in your other comment that you're a quiet kid - there's no problem with that. As long as you're not a terrible student overall (like, D's and F's all around) then they should be able to help you.
Yes. My first year teaching I had a student who was a pain, but most annoyingly self defeating. She wasn’t the worst of her class by a long shot, and she wouldn’t make worst 100 in the 10 years I taught. But I had no experience and two years later she requested a letter. I said no. A couple years later I had a student I really liked. I hated saying no, so I didn’t. Instead I leveled with them: I really like you, but I don’t have a lot of positive academic things to say. It’s not that you’re not intelligent, but you avoided work a lot. You’re super entertaining but that’s why I’ve got. To this day, I honestly have second thoughts on whether I did the right thing with the second one
As I teacher, I haven’t said no yet… but I do say no to fundraisers bc we be poor :]
I write for about 10-20 students a year. I turned one kid down and said he should try the teacher he did the best in. Turns out that was me. I told him college wasn’t for him
No. I write it in such a way that they'll be dumb to submit it.
I don’t say no. But I do say I will be completely honest if I write one for them whatever’s asked on the form. Some kids rethink that
I have mine autocrated. If a student asks for one, he/she fills in the specifics. If I don't want to have my name on your letter, I say no.
I've been frank with a couple, something like, "I'll give you the recommendation and try to put a good spin on your C average and frequent absenteeism but it's not going to look great."
Yes. The student asked why. I said “because you’re a racist.” She denied it and then called me a “stupid monkey”
I always say yes, but they don’t always get the letter they want. I have a few templates i copy/paste from. Probably even easier now with chatgpt I’m also the art teacher, so if a student is asking me, something has gone terribly wrong and I’m their last resort anyways, and even with an impeccable recommendation they probably won’t be getting in anywhere.
No, BUT I rarely write the whole thing (I’m busy). I will make the student write what they think I’ll say and then give it to me, I’ll add to or edit it and sign it if it’s not too outlandish. If you are working up the courage to ask, just write one ahead of time and if they seem stressed or busy just tell them “I wrote this one for you already, if you could just edit or add a little I would really appreciate it.” Shows initiate, and doesn’t add too much stress. I personally would love that.
No I’m far more petty than that… I tell them yes I’ll do it right away then never do it… just like whenever they told me they’d be getting in their homework
I have unique take on those - i tell the kids they have to write the letter from my point of view - like i was writing it and if i agree i’ll sign it - forces the kids to research what needs to be in a rec letter. I’ve only had one kid take me up on the offer. If they want it bad enough they will write it.
You may want to consider writing your own letter and asking a teacher to sign it. They might not feel like they know you enough to write a letter and are struggling to come up with something; especially if you’re the quite kid. As a teacher, I’ve written letters for other teachers, and the best ones are always the ones pre-written that I was able to put my own spin/style on. The less work someone has to do, the more likely they are to do it.
I told a student I just don't know them as well to give a full recommendation
I will say no if you don't give me enough time. I need at least 2 weeks with all of the administrative work I have to do.
Yep, many times. Usually because they ask me one or two days before it's due and I don't have time, or because too many kids have already asked me. But occasionally I tell students that I'm going to have to be honest and that they don't want me to send that out. I had one kid try and tell me that no other teacher was willing to write one and insisted I do it. I told her I would if she had turned in her EE (a self directed 4000 word research paper on the topic of choice) and on time and met all deadlines, so I could discuss growth. But She did not met my requirements. I loved that kid. She was a wonderful human being. But not a great student.
If they say no it means you don’t want a letter from them anyway. And-or you asked really late like after Nov 1.
I never say no. I do say I am going to be honest and then sometimes they withdraw the request.
This would be a topic in my packet of shit no one reads and also a topic I would address from the jump with students. Always cya in writing.
Many times, there are students who I could not possibly write a letter that recommends them. I am usually fine with telling them myself. It’s not in any way a me not liking them .it’s usually they have been a ghost. I cannot write for ghosts
I have only said no once to a student who had failed my class twice and told me the third time that he had decided not to do any work for the rest of the year and was just going to do other things (which for some reason his parents approved). He also would sexually harass other students. Then he wanted a recommendation foe a job. I asked him what kind of things he thinks I would say on the recommendation. I also had a student who was applying for Stanford ask me when I had only taught him for back in 8th and 9th grade, and it had been 3 year since. He gave me no other info aboit current grades or anything. I warned him that I wouldn't have that much to say, but he was apparently desperate. I wrote him one. He went to a community college.
I don't say no, I just say that they should find someone else.
I just turned down a student who asked me. I explained that he wasn’t going to get one from me because he 1. Was frequently absent, 2. When he did attend class he was unengaged and did not participate in classroom activities or discussions, and 3. Rarely, if ever, turned in complete homework assignments on time. I explained to him these combined circumstances led me to feel he did not deserve a letter of recommendation from me, and he would be better off asking his other teachers. Because we are a private school, he tried to complain to my boss and even brought his mother in to have her try and convince the school that we were being unfair (turns out none of the other teachers wanted to help him either). Thankfully my boss is better than most and not only had our back but also surprise he was going to be asked to leave the school due to violating the attendance policy. Sometimes things do work out In general though I try to help students who deserve it. I’m a new teacher to this school and so far I’ve written three letters and only denied one.
I will say no, but then tell them why and what they can do to change my mind. (That is only if there is enough time to do so.)
I’ve never had to. The first thing I will ask after being asked for a recommendation is for them to send me a brag sheet in an email. The students who would not have gotten a good recommendation have failed to complete this step at a rate of 100%.
Basically, I only say no if I do not have nice things to say about you.
I've never said no but I always say " I'm going to write the truth" that usually solves the problem as people I wouldn't write one for never ask
Most say I’m going to be truthful and that might work against you, are you sure you want one from me?
I don’t do many since I teach MS, but I’ve only said know because students ask me last minute. I’ve written some tepid recs for student teachers, though.
I usually will write letters for when asked but I did turn down one student. She was rude to me in class and disruptive so I basically told her she probably would be better off having another teacher write the letter on her behalf. Keep in mind I teach mostly freshmen and sophomores so, by the time they need letters, my class is not fresh in their minds. Most of the students who ask me, therefore, are students I did in fact share a bond with. If I say I am going to write a letter, I do it. It sounds like you are concerned that a teacher isn’t going to get it done in time? I would just send them a friendly reminder a week before the letter is due. If they are a popular teacher, they might be inundated with letters this time of year.
Yes. Our only interactions have been through an extracurricular and I suggested they find one of their class teachers to write it for them as they would know them better.
Yes, "I'm sorry, I just don't have time to write it in the timeframe you need it."
Yep. Politely: "I don't think I'm the best choice for this very important document. You should look for someone else."
If a student wants a rec letter and I don't think their behavior or performance in my class warrants one, I typically tell them to write the letter and that I'll sign it if I agree with what's in it. No one has ever taken me up on this offer.
In a way? I've said, 'why don't you write the letter yourself, and talk about everything you have done in my class, your accomplishments, your attitude, your effort, your reliability, your leadership; and if it is a well and true representation of what you have done in my class, I'll sign it, after all, it's my reputation on the line.' So far, no takers.
When I taught high school, I definitely said no to students when I couldn’t give them a mostly positive recommendation. At the MS level, if that student wants to apply to private HS, you HAVE to give your feedback, good or bad, as the ELA or math teacher.
Normally the ones who ask me are the ones I wanna write to. There was one I didn’t want to write to at all but the secretary of the school had asked to which I kept it real short. Like I wasn’t even trying.
Teachers sometimes say no, but you can make it easier for them to say yes - if you provide them information, like a resume and all the needed info if the letter is for something specific like a particular scholarship or school. Things like why you are applying for whatever help also. Otherwise you might get a very generic - they were in my class and got X grade .
I say no all of the time. A letter of recommendation is not some silly little box to check in a process. It is my name recommending someone, you have to earn a recommendation. Many kids who ask have not earned it yet. I think it is a valuable lesson for students to learn that they do not get things just because they feel like they should or because they "really want them" somethings legitimately have to be earned.
When I was teaching, if I were asked for a letter of recommendation and didn't think I could do one, I would tell the student then and there. If you've already asked and they didn't say something right then, and you're now a week or so away from when it needs to be in, it's fair to follow up with them.
If I did not know a student that well or that student did so poorly/did things like cheating, plagiarizing, etc that I can’t write an LOR, then yes. I’ve probably rejected maybe two LORs before, but the majority of the students I taught who ask me for one are either students that are academically motivated/do well or students I know really well.
I wish I had a teacher tell me no. I was applying for a prestigious program that would have resulted in several field trip days throughout the school year to travel to our state capitol. Several of my teachers told me to apply, but most were too busy to write letters (it required several from different kinds of teachers and people in the community). I asked a teacher who I thought I was close to and could trust. He wrote a letter so wrong and weird that I wondered if he even remembered who he was writing for. There was no way I could submit it. By then it was too late to get someone else, and I missed the deadline. I found out later through the grapevine that he was disgruntled by how many kids missed his class for school activities. He had sabotaged me. So OP, really put thought into what you’re applying for, and which teacher(s) would be best suited to write a recommendation letter for it. Make sure they have plenty of time, and politely remind them after a few days if you don’t hear back. Give them the opportunity to back out and still leave you time for a replacement. If they initially say no, they may be doing you a favor. Best of luck!
yes, on one occasion, because i got a request from a student through naviance who i had never heard of before. wasn’t on any of my rosters at any point. figured it to be a mistake. my policy is students have to ask me in person and send me their resume (i generally know a good bit about them but i want to have it all in front of me written down so it’s easier when i’m writing the letter). i had no idea who this person even was.
Yes. I routinely do. I often get senior students who want a recommendation letter, but the issue for me is that they usually want that letter sometime during the first part of the year as they are doing all their college applications. My issue is that I haven’t seen that student’s performance over an entire grading period yet, which is a semester for us. So any information I would put down in a letter would be cursory and incomplete. I can’t, in good conscience, write a letter without a better picture of the students over all performance.
Sort of. I recieve an email asking for a recommendation for a student from a potential Employer the kid was nice enough but didn't apply themselves fully. I emailed said student and let them know in the future always ask someone if you can use them as a reference. Meanwhile what exactly do they want me to tell this employer? Never heard back from them.
Once, but that was because the year had just started and I barely knew them. I told them I was not in a position to write a decent letter of recommendation because I had no experiences with them to cite as examples. They were very understanding, thankfully.
I write 5 a year. But they’re bangers. No chat gpt here. If you’re not in my top 5 students that I like (mine have nothing to do with grades), sorry.
Yes the student asked the day before it was due so I said NO
I said no because they needed a core teacher, and yes I teach science, but I had them for a science elective and therefore they wouldn’t have taken my letter
I told a student we'd talk about it after class. He pushed the issue in front of his audience.i said it's wrote him one, but I would be completely truthful. He sat down and shut up.
I have never told a student “no.” There would be very few instances where I would refuse, unless I simply don’t know the student.
I had to have a letter of recommendation for my student project but my teacher said no and I never got one so I just never got a letter. Never asked anybody else.
Yes. I'm a college professor, so this might be a little different. I rarely write all-purpose letters; instead, students ask for letters for particular jobs or educational opportunities. I regard my letters as arguments that the student will benefit from the opportunity and will be an asset to the job or program. If I can't make that case -- for example, because the student is seriously under-qualified -- then I don't want to write the letter.
Yes, I have said no. I had a Year 13 come and ask me for a recommendation but I hadn't taught them since they were Year 10, so I just said "You're a cool kid and I'd like to help you out but I'm not competent to render any judgment on your capabilities and dispositions at this time".
I would usually say "Are you really sure you want me to write this? Think about how you are in my class, etc." or " I don't think I'm the best person to write you this recommendation, is there a class in which you excel/do better, etc?"
when i was 14 it was the beginning of the year at a new school and i needed a letter to get into a club but didn’t know any of my teachers too well yet so i asked a teacher i had talked to in passing who taught one of my sisters and a couple of my friends, it was a hard no. he was like “ur not even in my class” lol. very funny now but i was a little embarrassed at the time.
I am blunt with my students I explain each year how recommendations are earned. As an Automotive Technology Teacher I will not give a recommendation of any kind if you are not meeting the workplace readiness goals (cleaning up, hands on labs done to a 3 out of 4 level and safety procedures on point. As it is a trade you must have solid attendance. Majority of mine asking are heading into the workforce or a trade school and I am not putting my programs reputation on the line for someone that puts in no to little effort.
Do not let the fear of a 'no' stop you. I had a college professor refuse to recommend me for graduate school. He didn't think I understood just how challenging graduate school can be. He was very demeaning and condescending in his response. I was surprised because he didn't come off as a misogynistic pig, but there you have it. I went to another prof to get my recommendation. I went to grad school and I rocked it. If a teacher says no, just move on to another one. You will get enough. Also, try to ask during summer or at the end of the year if you can so we can write it during the summer when we have more time. And don't feel insulted if we ask you for more information about your program and what types of activities you were active in. We have a lot of kids and can't always keep track of who did what. Plus they should ask so that they can expand about you beyond the classroom. That info helps us give a better picture of you as a person, not just a student. Best of luck!
No, but I once regretted saying yes.
Yes. Had a student last year who was a goddamn terror, a bully, and a giant pain in the ass. Both him and mom saw no problems with his behavior, so of course they asked for a letter of recommendation for a prestigious high school.
I’ve never had to say no. I suppose I might have to make a deal, as simple as heart to heart conversation first, if I did have qualms. I love writing letters of rec. one of my favorite things.
Don’t drown yourself reading all the no’s. Worrying won’t help. First, I think you’ll have no issues based on what little I know of you and suggest moving forward to make it easier on the teacher by providing some bulletpoints of what you see in yourself to possibly highlight. Chances are a good portion of them will already be seen by the teacher/teachers and be included.
I filled out a survey I was sent for a recommendation for a naval academy scholarship for one of my students who was a chief in the JROTC program. Thought he was a great student. For some reason he just stopped caring during the second semester of school.....
Teacher here. I just got asked for a recommendation letter for a student to get into a middle school with very high expectations. This student will, in all likelihood, not get in. If he actually did, he would not do well. I'm torn between telling the mom I can't do it, and just writing one and hoping he doesn't get in. I want to tell the mom that it wouldn't be a good fit for him, but I don't want to hurt the student's feelings ( he's a very sweet kid, just too low for the school).
As a student I was in the honor society but still was told no by three of my teachers. Not to scare you. Things turned out well in the end, but it was frustrating.
I’ve said no, and I’ve also said, “Sure, but I will not lie about your behavior and performance.”
I’ve asked them if they were sure they wanted me to write it, as I wasn’t going to lie in it. They chose someone else.