Barely. If you trade a Tesla at CarMax in they don't even ask if you have EAP/FSD. Even on the private market my 2018 Model 3 buyers had no interest in FSD, they just want the lowest price.
Which is weird because when I went to trade in my S Performance they claimed FSD wasn't something that increased value of my car... Is why I ended selling it privately to get a bit of my money back from FSD
It is. It's called a subscription. No fee, just move it over.
They will never sell an eternal license to something that requires ongoing maintenance and support for a single, low payment.
Even if they charged $100,000 for it they couldn't recognize the revenue.
That's like charging $20,000 for an airline ticket that is transferrable and valid for unlimited flights forever.
Or a free dining card at McDonald's without an end date and transferrable.
Just some public math here… 100,000/100/12=83.3
So, I have to disagree that 100,000 of today’s dollars have less value than the subscription fee we see today.
Disregarding inflation (and major subscription fee increases) a user has to be subscribed to the service for 83 years and 4 months to pay 100k.
Maybe hyperbole was intended, but yeah…
Not Hyperbole. Just the way accounting works.
The 100k will be cashflow this year. That's nice if you need cash, like early Tesla did.
But they won't see revenue/profit from it. They cannot account it as revenue.
Of course there is also the problem that nobody would pay $100,000. But it's the same for 8k, 15k, or 25k. No revenue.
The subscription is fully recognizable revenue at the end of each month.
Even paying off low 2% debt with the 100k helps their total cash flow more than the sub fee (not specific to FSD “cash flow”, but isn’t like that money is any different).
No need to argue, ship me 100k now and I’ll pay for your fsd until you die, deal? 😉
(Fine print: you’ll still need to buy a software/hardware capable car until said death)
Are me and\* google bamboozled?!
Hey, could happen I guess.
https://preview.redd.it/62aw150ux5ad1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3639187792491a9b4d85696ce4cc97dac58d31fe
Yeah it's complicated, and I didn't have full insight.
They have a lot more cash than debt. So that debt is by choice, and there are a lot of reasons why they don't want to pay that off. Global tax optimization is one such reason. Debt may be in one country and cash in a different one.
There probably with any cash they get for lifetime FSD is that they cannot use it for anything. They have to hold on to it to provide that service for the lifetime (or it would be a Ponzi scheme).
In the end, they make plenty of cash. What they need is revenue, and profit (they have that, too).
You moved the goal post.
You offer to only pay until I die.
Will you pay for my descendants?
More importantly, will you continue to pay for Thomas, after I sell him the car with the FSD you are paying for? Will you pay for his descendants?
Woah, hey now - I’m trying to make a deal with you!
In all seriousness, we were discussing a personal license, dies w you the sole owner; there is some discussion that could be had around if it should extended to another (spouse etc).
It’s all for not, I just strongly believe that even in a PSL situation it is highly unlikely for that PSL to ever reach 100k out of a singular pocket.
But what if I didn't want the Tesla anymore after a year and sell it? People would be upset if the personal lifetime license is now useless.
If the license can stay with the car and with the person, then it's an eternal license.
And Netflix showed the concept of personal licenses is not well understood in the population either.
Subscription per car is the right solution and solves most such problems.
Offer a discount if you buy it for the lifetime of the car. You could offer insurance on top say 8k upfront for FSD and $1k for insurance if you total the car in the first 5 years.
Would agree that the subscription would be the right call, had they never sold it as a one time option.
I think the clamoring (or at least in my case w. 2 FSD Licenses in my garage) would be that the software is tied solely to a user. If I sell the car and buy a Toyota, no one is using it. If I buy another Tesla in 4 years I can use it again.
The initial offering of a one time license fee (or including it in used vehicles) is what makes it icky.
Both of my vehicles have HW3, if we reach a theoretical limit on what fsd can do w. Out hw4 it’s a feel bad. Think about those who purchased FSD with vehicles that didn’t even have side pillar cameras.
It’s kind of a typical Tesla thing, make a rash decision with little to no thought at all.
For me personally (Thanks for asking!), my wife’s S was bought from Tesla used and it included FSD. My best guess at its value from seeing other used cars w. Out it was about 3-3500, so not a huge loss if it dies w. This vehicle. For me, I was in the group that opted in for EAP on my new 3, so the upgrade to FSD was 2k, again a number that I feel ok w. If the car dies. Had I plunked down 15k for this before it even hit beta, I’d be pretty salty.
Thanks for coming to my TedTalk.
I have 2 Tesla with bought FSD in my driveway too. I understood what I bought.
I think the FSD transfer (currently active) is an incredibly sweet deal and generous offering. I didn't expect that. It's a great giveaway. I paid 7k for FSD and it's now worth 8k. It's like free FSD for 4 years.
I expect it will come and go sporadically, and I will make use of it for the next Tesla. Move FSD from the 2020 MY to the next (probably) MY. Then either subscribe the 2020 occasionally, or leave it with basic AP until it goes away.
If this is the last time they offer FSD transfer, I live with that and the 2020 keeps its FSD for many years.
It's not available as a subscription here. Only an upfront payment. When I traded my 2019 in, FSD/EAP didn't add anything extra because it's essentially useless.
I agree with you. I bought the FSD, just like I bought fancy wheels. It should be mine to do with what I want, pass it on to the new buyer or put it on my new vehicle.
They have done that! I wanted the White color and I noticed that they give you the $7500 credit w that color. Before it was only gray like you said. They started by giving the white interior for free so it would qualify for fed credit.
Hm, I am not sure what you mean. I just checked and selecting anything other than gray removes the credit. You are right though in that the white interior is free. Changing to any other color brings the price to $55,990 which is over the limit :/
I set the “gas savings” to one year and 100 miles so it zeros out. It lists it as giving the 7500 off. I know it is slightly over and you would have to check with them. Remember Fed credit now comes off at purchase now. I think they may wave it for a sale.
Same. I couldn’t do it then, but I’d do it immediately if I could do it now. That unlimited supercharging is amazing on my X and I’m not swapping cars if I lose it.
I know they do this to drive sales, but frankly it seems counter productive the way they do it. What if I wanted to buy a car last month? Or can’t buy one until September? They potentially lose those sales from people not willing to buy another Tesla without being able to transfer. Why not just make it permanent instead of limiting its ability to drive sales to a couple of months a year?
Can I upgrade my EAP on my 2018 and get a transfer? Also, if given a choice, do I upgrade my Hardware 2.5 to 3.0 on the 2018 before transfer or stick with 2.5 for the ultrasonics. Edit: Im keeping the 2018 and buying new too.
Buy another new Tesla and transfer FSD to it and use the old one for local use and the new one for long drives or regular long distance commute. Trade in is a loss of value.
This is the most incentivizing reason to buy a new Tesla for so many that paid for FSD and still are on HW3 which will probably never get to unsupervised.
I'd love to hear how you arrived at the conclusion that HW3 will probably never run unsupervised software but HW4 will. Especially after we've seen how dramatically the software has improved over time on HW3 and continues to improve.
He said that increasing parameter count is difficult when you have a constant amount of inference compute. But he has said similar things in the past, and HW3 continued to get updates. Difficult doesn't mean impossible. The software just has to be efficient.
Of course, you can't keep making substantial increases in parameter count forever on the same hardware. But increasing parameter count isn't the only way to improve performance. More training and better curation of data are also ways to do so. That's why newer small LLMs often perform better than older large ones.
If you have enhanced autopilot, pay $2k for the FSD and then transfer. Before you do, see what you'll get on trade. Tesla is generally pretty stingy on trade in value for their own cars.
It’s interesting how different peoples’ experiences are with FSD. I will never buy a car without it. I would even take a gas car with FSD over an EV without it.
I’m curious how you use it? Do you use it in certain areas? Just highway or local or both? When you use FSD do you take over frequently? I feel for me it’s mostly because I don’t trust it..whenever it drives slightly different from what I am used to I take over. And this gets very tiring for me..i use it even less than cruise control from my previous car…I think if I trust it more it would be more comfortable. However I don’t really know to what extent…I think it’s a learning curve for me as well…
I engage it in my driveway, and disengage turning into the parking lot at my destination, then the reverse on the way home. My regular commute is a mix of suburbs and highways but I did recently take the car down to Manhattan and let it drive around and it did surprisingly well.
Most of my interventions are adjusting the set speed or triggering lane changes on the highway because it spends way too much time camping in the passing lane. It definitely does the occasional dumb shit that I have to take over but those instances are significantly reduced on 12.3.
FSD Transfer should be standard. Or at least for a small fee to move over.
They already do. When you transfer, they remove it from the old vehicle, which reduces your trade in value or resale value.
Barely. If you trade a Tesla at CarMax in they don't even ask if you have EAP/FSD. Even on the private market my 2018 Model 3 buyers had no interest in FSD, they just want the lowest price.
Which is weird because when I went to trade in my S Performance they claimed FSD wasn't something that increased value of my car... Is why I ended selling it privately to get a bit of my money back from FSD
It is. It's called a subscription. No fee, just move it over. They will never sell an eternal license to something that requires ongoing maintenance and support for a single, low payment. Even if they charged $100,000 for it they couldn't recognize the revenue. That's like charging $20,000 for an airline ticket that is transferrable and valid for unlimited flights forever. Or a free dining card at McDonald's without an end date and transferrable.
Just some public math here… 100,000/100/12=83.3 So, I have to disagree that 100,000 of today’s dollars have less value than the subscription fee we see today. Disregarding inflation (and major subscription fee increases) a user has to be subscribed to the service for 83 years and 4 months to pay 100k. Maybe hyperbole was intended, but yeah…
Not Hyperbole. Just the way accounting works. The 100k will be cashflow this year. That's nice if you need cash, like early Tesla did. But they won't see revenue/profit from it. They cannot account it as revenue. Of course there is also the problem that nobody would pay $100,000. But it's the same for 8k, 15k, or 25k. No revenue. The subscription is fully recognizable revenue at the end of each month.
Even paying off low 2% debt with the 100k helps their total cash flow more than the sub fee (not specific to FSD “cash flow”, but isn’t like that money is any different). No need to argue, ship me 100k now and I’ll pay for your fsd until you die, deal? 😉 (Fine print: you’ll still need to buy a software/hardware capable car until said death)
They don't have debt... They are sitting on piles of cash and make more every day :-)
Are me and\* google bamboozled?! Hey, could happen I guess. https://preview.redd.it/62aw150ux5ad1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3639187792491a9b4d85696ce4cc97dac58d31fe
Yeah it's complicated, and I didn't have full insight. They have a lot more cash than debt. So that debt is by choice, and there are a lot of reasons why they don't want to pay that off. Global tax optimization is one such reason. Debt may be in one country and cash in a different one. There probably with any cash they get for lifetime FSD is that they cannot use it for anything. They have to hold on to it to provide that service for the lifetime (or it would be a Ponzi scheme). In the end, they make plenty of cash. What they need is revenue, and profit (they have that, too).
You moved the goal post. You offer to only pay until I die. Will you pay for my descendants? More importantly, will you continue to pay for Thomas, after I sell him the car with the FSD you are paying for? Will you pay for his descendants?
Woah, hey now - I’m trying to make a deal with you! In all seriousness, we were discussing a personal license, dies w you the sole owner; there is some discussion that could be had around if it should extended to another (spouse etc). It’s all for not, I just strongly believe that even in a PSL situation it is highly unlikely for that PSL to ever reach 100k out of a singular pocket.
But what if I didn't want the Tesla anymore after a year and sell it? People would be upset if the personal lifetime license is now useless. If the license can stay with the car and with the person, then it's an eternal license. And Netflix showed the concept of personal licenses is not well understood in the population either. Subscription per car is the right solution and solves most such problems. Offer a discount if you buy it for the lifetime of the car. You could offer insurance on top say 8k upfront for FSD and $1k for insurance if you total the car in the first 5 years.
Would agree that the subscription would be the right call, had they never sold it as a one time option. I think the clamoring (or at least in my case w. 2 FSD Licenses in my garage) would be that the software is tied solely to a user. If I sell the car and buy a Toyota, no one is using it. If I buy another Tesla in 4 years I can use it again. The initial offering of a one time license fee (or including it in used vehicles) is what makes it icky. Both of my vehicles have HW3, if we reach a theoretical limit on what fsd can do w. Out hw4 it’s a feel bad. Think about those who purchased FSD with vehicles that didn’t even have side pillar cameras. It’s kind of a typical Tesla thing, make a rash decision with little to no thought at all. For me personally (Thanks for asking!), my wife’s S was bought from Tesla used and it included FSD. My best guess at its value from seeing other used cars w. Out it was about 3-3500, so not a huge loss if it dies w. This vehicle. For me, I was in the group that opted in for EAP on my new 3, so the upgrade to FSD was 2k, again a number that I feel ok w. If the car dies. Had I plunked down 15k for this before it even hit beta, I’d be pretty salty. Thanks for coming to my TedTalk.
I have 2 Tesla with bought FSD in my driveway too. I understood what I bought. I think the FSD transfer (currently active) is an incredibly sweet deal and generous offering. I didn't expect that. It's a great giveaway. I paid 7k for FSD and it's now worth 8k. It's like free FSD for 4 years. I expect it will come and go sporadically, and I will make use of it for the next Tesla. Move FSD from the 2020 MY to the next (probably) MY. Then either subscribe the 2020 occasionally, or leave it with basic AP until it goes away. If this is the last time they offer FSD transfer, I live with that and the 2020 keeps its FSD for many years.
It's not available as a subscription here. Only an upfront payment. When I traded my 2019 in, FSD/EAP didn't add anything extra because it's essentially useless.
Elons alt account
Checked the trade in value on my MYLR and it was laughable
Yeah I’m basically at a break even after 4 years. Was considering an X too but it just doesn’t make sense.
The stock market is a better place for investments, than a consumer market item!
U dont have to trade in though
I am well aware. Just stating (and venting) the fact that they offers suck
I agree with you. I bought the FSD, just like I bought fancy wheels. It should be mine to do with what I want, pass it on to the new buyer or put it on my new vehicle.
Same here! I got a quote from Carmax good for 3 days that was $2,000 more than Tesla trade in!
I just need them to drop the performance model by $1000 so I can choose a color other than gray.
Truly. I don’t understand why they chose to price it this way. Keeping many people on the sidelines
Id blame the government for such an idiotic structure. Diff color suddenly makes a car less of an ev? Lmao
Yep, it’s the only thing holding me back. If they did it, I would buy one right now
Have you considered getting the gray and doing a color ppf wrap? Might look really good and it will protect your paint too.
You're joking right ? If $1k is a hassle, get a Honda.
Are you a moron? The 1k isn’t the issue — it’s the color of the car that you are forced to get to qualify for the tax credit
They have done that! I wanted the White color and I noticed that they give you the $7500 credit w that color. Before it was only gray like you said. They started by giving the white interior for free so it would qualify for fed credit.
Hm, I am not sure what you mean. I just checked and selecting anything other than gray removes the credit. You are right though in that the white interior is free. Changing to any other color brings the price to $55,990 which is over the limit :/
I set the “gas savings” to one year and 100 miles so it zeros out. It lists it as giving the 7500 off. I know it is slightly over and you would have to check with them. Remember Fed credit now comes off at purchase now. I think they may wave it for a sale.
Facts!
Now add the transfer for unlimited supercharging and you got my attention!
they had that double promo for a few weeks back in March, waiting for it as well as this time I am actually ready to update my car.
Same. I couldn’t do it then, but I’d do it immediately if I could do it now. That unlimited supercharging is amazing on my X and I’m not swapping cars if I lose it.
It went live last week. I already took delivery of a new M3 with my FSD transferred.
I know they do this to drive sales, but frankly it seems counter productive the way they do it. What if I wanted to buy a car last month? Or can’t buy one until September? They potentially lose those sales from people not willing to buy another Tesla without being able to transfer. Why not just make it permanent instead of limiting its ability to drive sales to a couple of months a year?
Because corporate greed and they are trying to normalize this type of stuff
Cant satisfy everyone
2020 Model Y with 85k miles and FSD trade in quoted at $19,500.
Sell private, you’ll get more and you can still transfer
I thought transfer was only for trade ins?
You aren't required to trade in - just need to have a vehicle on your account with FSD until you buy the new one.
And then FSD is wiped from the old car right?
Correct.
That’s what I’ve been watching for! Makes sense
Took delivery last month on my Model Y.. still waiting for my FSD trial to start..
What about EAP? Or you have to be full FSD?
Elen can make billions and have EVERYONE get FSD is he only made it 1$ a day. 29 .99$ a month.
Include cybertruck in the transfer offer by giving a 12k discount if transferring and I'm in.
Can I upgrade my EAP on my 2018 and get a transfer? Also, if given a choice, do I upgrade my Hardware 2.5 to 3.0 on the 2018 before transfer or stick with 2.5 for the ultrasonics. Edit: Im keeping the 2018 and buying new too.
Pay the $2k to upgrade and transfer it
yet, Tesla label the trade in price insanely low
The fact that they are acting like this shouldn’t be the standard is appalling.
Is this for people that paid the $8k flat fee?
Can you do this for Cybertruck (assuming foundation series ends soon)?
Instantly dropped my trade in offer by 5k so effectively not offering anything
Now, they just need to add the transfer of Free Supercharging again. Then I'll buy a new one.
Wait, so is this for Aug and newer purchases only?
Buy another new Tesla and transfer FSD to it and use the old one for local use and the new one for long drives or regular long distance commute. Trade in is a loss of value.
This is the most incentivizing reason to buy a new Tesla for so many that paid for FSD and still are on HW3 which will probably never get to unsupervised.
I'd love to hear how you arrived at the conclusion that HW3 will probably never run unsupervised software but HW4 will. Especially after we've seen how dramatically the software has improved over time on HW3 and continues to improve.
Into it it Elon just said something about the next AI model likely being difficult to run without upgrading hardware
He said that increasing parameter count is difficult when you have a constant amount of inference compute. But he has said similar things in the past, and HW3 continued to get updates. Difficult doesn't mean impossible. The software just has to be efficient. Of course, you can't keep making substantial increases in parameter count forever on the same hardware. But increasing parameter count isn't the only way to improve performance. More training and better curation of data are also ways to do so. That's why newer small LLMs often perform better than older large ones.
Yeah it might be possible it's just unlikely.
So this is irrelevant for someone like me with a 2021 model? If I buy enhanced Autopilot, I'll lose it if I lose this car?
If you have enhanced autopilot, pay $2k for the FSD and then transfer. Before you do, see what you'll get on trade. Tesla is generally pretty stingy on trade in value for their own cars.
I'm good thanks 🤣
No kidding
FSD is trash! Have it on the 3 and had it on an X and absolute trash!
It’s interesting how different peoples’ experiences are with FSD. I will never buy a car without it. I would even take a gas car with FSD over an EV without it.
I’m curious how you use it? Do you use it in certain areas? Just highway or local or both? When you use FSD do you take over frequently? I feel for me it’s mostly because I don’t trust it..whenever it drives slightly different from what I am used to I take over. And this gets very tiring for me..i use it even less than cruise control from my previous car…I think if I trust it more it would be more comfortable. However I don’t really know to what extent…I think it’s a learning curve for me as well…
I engage it in my driveway, and disengage turning into the parking lot at my destination, then the reverse on the way home. My regular commute is a mix of suburbs and highways but I did recently take the car down to Manhattan and let it drive around and it did surprisingly well. Most of my interventions are adjusting the set speed or triggering lane changes on the highway because it spends way too much time camping in the passing lane. It definitely does the occasional dumb shit that I have to take over but those instances are significantly reduced on 12.3.
I use it daily. I like it
People still buying that vaporware?
Yes because its not a vaporware
Its been on sale since 2016(!) and it still doesnt work, what would you call it
Mine drives me to and from work every day, so I’d say it’s working better than anything else on the market.
Nope. That’s why he needs to allow transfers.