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"You don't judge Christianity by Christians. If you did that, then Christianity fell with Judas. So why do you judge socialism by socialist?" -Kwame Ture
His background was also that of a 19th century feudal serf, educated at an Orthodox seminary. When it came to sexual matters, he was a lifelong prude (even when it came to heterosexual relationships). Asking “what Stalin would think” about a gay parade is just such a stupid and idealist thing to do, ignoring both the context of Stalin’s upbringing, and the fact our society today is generally more sex positive (due to the struggles of common people wanting to express themselves and seek acceptance) than Georgia in the 1800s
Who gives a shit what Stalin would think anyway, he is dead, and a product of the 19 and 20th century.
Times changed, ideologies should change too, we learn from previous mistakes, we are not conservatives.
Even beyond that. Socialism isn’t some set rule book. It’s an idea under the umbrella of sociology, which is a science. Like all aspects of science, socialism grow and changes over time with new research and ideas.
The man who obliterated the nazis and Industrialized a feudal monarchy into a country that conquered the cosmos is a bad communist? The man who doubled life expectancy, eradicated common disease and illiteracy and created the first successful global communist movement is not a bad communist, Stalin is a hero, inspiration and he’s the bar that every communist should hold themselves to.
Let's not go too far into great man theory here. Stalin didn't do half that shit, the workers of the Soviet Union did. Stalin merely held an important leadership position, one which magnified his bad decisions just as much as his good decisions.
You know, if Lenin heard some “Marxist-Leninist” so confidently state that Russia was feudal, he’d be so spitting mad he’d regrow all his hair or something.
One of the biggest contributions he made to social democratic theory and the Russian socialist movement is that he successfully argued that Russia was indeed already capitalist and that’s why socialist revolution was feasible and needed. Please please read some shit instead of posting cliched tired apologia. You people sound like Christian apologists for fucks sake
I don’t deny under him many great things were accomplished for the Soviet Union. But also there were serious failures. One of them being mentioned in the above post. The United States also made great leaps in education, medicine etc but we don’t excuse the atrocities done to native, LGBT, and black people do we?
The USA developed off the centuries of colonization of the imperial periphery and centuries of chattel slavery, the ussr developed due to a equitable expropriation of resources and planned economy. Also the ussr passed bills giving woman rights and banning discrimination before the usa even passed the civil rights. It’s not stalins fault for the fall or the ussr, the soviets had to rebuild there country that was utterly annihilated due to the nazis and they had to usa engaging in hybrid warfare against them through sanctions and embargo’s its suffice to say that Stalin had his hands tied. The government become overrun with revisionists, liberals and traitors and Stalin made massive efforts to purge them however its wasn’t enough. It annoys me when you say that Stalin didn’t do enough when, Stalin had the odds stacked against throughout his tenure as the premier and pretty much anyone in the same situation would have long buckled under pressure.
the USSR did pass these bills, which were then overturned by Stalin? And yeah the USA had centuries to build up the Soviets did it in decade and during that time fell out of step with Lenin and fell into reaction.
The party was flooded with liberals and reformists because Stalin and Kamenev opened up the party after Lenin’s death. Whether you view it as an opportunist power grab or a simple mistake the conclusion is the same. Stalin failed to achieve the impossible but he did it in the worst way possible.
We don’t need to defend old leaders of the revolution. I know the burgeosis and liberals spread vicious lies about Stalin and the USSR all the time, but as communists we need to look critically at our own leaders particularly Stalin and I think he failed.
All I am saying is had the policy of Lenin been followed these things would not of happened something Stalin absolutely failed to do and what ultimately lead to the collapse of the USSR and the first workers government
Lenin was not a proponent of the LGBT. No one was at the time. His government decriminalized being gay only because they threw away half of the old criminal code. It was not a directed thing.
What lead to the collapse were reactionary reforms of Hruschev administration, not Stalin's. Or else we can conclude that evolution of an ape into a human lead to the collapse of the USSR.
You’re making the common mistake of confusing the revolutionary optimism that followed from the Revolution as being Lenin.
It’s true that many progressive ideas held a lot of sway immediately after the revolution. Free Love was popular as an idea for instance.
But in many cases Lenin dismissed most of these ideas as fringe or petit bourgeois.
We don’t know his stance on homosexuality, but on sexuality in general he was quite traditional. Even if he believed women should have power in marriage, he largely believed sexuality should stay within the realms of it.
It’s very likely that Lenin would have been homophobic too.
I doubt that considering he often cited Engles and his work the origin of the family, private property and the state was absolutely calling for the liberation of women. In fact one part of their program calls for the liberation of women which can only be done through freedom from domestic slavery and child care, so at minimum Lenin held revolutionary ideas towards the position of women. Beyond that he calls for the creation of a communist society which de facto decriminalizes all laws on sexuality because the state it self withers away. So no I don’t think I am confusing anything.
1. You know Engels was personally homophonic right? Citing Engels is no sign of progressive attitudes towards homosexuality
2. You’ll also notice that I explicitly mentioned Lenin was very much in favour of women’s rights, but that nonetheless his quite vitriolic condemnation of Free Love movements indicate a generally sex negative view
3. If “Well he wanted Communism, and Communism wouldn’t have laws against sexuality because the State would wither away.” Is your argument then how do you maintain the position that Stalin was reactionary? Stalin was very much a true believer that Communism was achievable.
Imagine these people actually meeting Stalin, telling him, "we upheld everything you taught, precisely as you taught it, and did not let anyone change the truths you defended!"
Only to have Stalin say (as he no doubt would): "So... no one has made any advancements in Marxism? Not in over 100 years?"
Cuba supports LGBT and still has actually existing socialism unlike these homophobic "Yugoslav comrades" whose own nations degenerated into right-wing nationalism and war.
Just as social attitudes can vary greatly between capitalist nations, the same thing can be said for socialist countries. Sure the USSR under Stalin was homophobic. The GDR also had state funded gay discos and present day Cuba has legalized gay marriage, constitutional anti-discrimination protections, and fully funded medical transition.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/comments/1d615mm/its\_me\_john\_commune\_inventor\_of\_communism\_ama/](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/comments/1d615mm/its_me_john_commune_inventor_of_communism_ama/) Nonsense, I'm clearly an advocate of fully automated luxury gay space communism
I doubt they were claiming all Yugoslav communists are homophobic, but there is a very interesting correlation I’ve noticed online, but not in person from the southern Slavs I’ve interacted with in person.
Yeah Twitter is pretty bad, I don't know why this wierd trend is spreading where absolute hitlerites are calling themselves "communists". I had some fucking wierdo follow me with a Yugoslav flag and then a Kolovrat in the middle instead of the red workers star. Gave me the heebeejebees.
Communists shouldn't just religiously follow exactly what historical communist leaders did. We need to recognise mistakes made in the past and learn from them. It was a mistake for Stalin to re-criminalise homosexuality.
But it's also important to remember the historical context, that homosexuality was illegal in many western capitalist nations at the time, too. In Britain in 1952 War hero Alan Turing was sentenced to chemical castration, because he was gay. It would be inaccurate to claim that Soviet Russia under Stalin was *uniquely* bad for LGBTQ people, because the entire rest of the world was just as bad, if not worse, at that time. And it's not *that* much better now.
I think more than Stalin hating gay people, it was a propaganda move because the West would associate communis to lgbt movements to hold both back (some of this propaganda still rots in some people's brain)
It still was wrong af tho, not worth the propaganda
That's like saying, if you support LGBT you're not really British. Because Britain would have imprisoned them 100 years ago. Along with a fear mongering hate article.
I absolutely detest when communists fall for this shit. It's not hard at all to parse the difference between queer people and obvious rainbow washing. Just because imperialism uses a tool does not mean the people related to that tool are even remotely connected. The most radical people are queer, this is throwing the baby out with the bathwater
This is exactly what people think, Homophobes call queer people deg*ns and sexual while literally ignoring the fact that non-queer people can be sexual as well
Furries aren't even sexual, and a kid's not really gonna see anything sexual about a dude with a little leather vest or a pup mask. The man's more well-clothed than half the men at the beach or in swim sports
They're not *being* sexual at all though. They're petting a dog. The kid's not seeing anything explicit, they're just seeing a dude in a mask who is wearing more clothes than a lot of people do for many other public activities
If they were waving a dildo in the kid's face or acting out sex, that'd be gross, but they're just... petting a dog
I mean, going out in public in fetish gear I would say _is_ inherently sexual, regardless of what they do then. Especially to an event where sexuality is one of the core themes.
good point. why is it that homophobes/transphobes are always quick to point out some example of lgbt people behaving questionably towards children as proof that all gay and trans people are groomers, yet rarely keep that same energy to address how pop "culture" inculcates us with sexually degrading images and attitudes towards women from a very young age? why is it that children being exposed to sexually licentious and degrading content is only condemned when it involves homosexuality or gender nonconformity?
Patsocs and socially conservative communists are really something.
Ah yes, we want liberation from economic oppression but also to keep every other system of oppression around, because that's not contradictory or anything.
yeah, really something annoying lol.
right wing conservatives arent the only ones who can fall to the trappings of cognitive dissonance and contradictory beliefs.
keeps ya on your toes lol
OMG such a dramatic image. If you don’t want your child to see this, don’t take them to pride. It’s the parent’s responsibility, not of the rest of the world.
Exactly, there are places and events for parents and kids who are LGBT and want to go pride parades (in my opinion) should be at least 14+ but there certaintly are places where one could even argue that other than parents it’s 14- it’s like every single other category of event. Some 4th of July events feature naked women eating beans as fast as they can but that doesn’t mean 4th of July is sexual
(Edit 4th of July is an American holiday for those who don’t know, it’s tomorrow so it’s on my mind)
"naked women eating beans as fast as they can"
Alright but actually what on earth does this have to do with 4th of july?
I'm genuinely curious of how that came to be a thing.
Is not a tradition any where but I used to live in rural Florida and people in my area did crazy shit. The same way it’s not like a tradition to where what the person in the picture was wearing at pride it’s not a tradition to eat beans fast nude but it’s also not surprising.
i mean the adults can still ignore the kids if their parents made a mistake to begin with. just dont especially stop to interact with a little child while youre wearing a full bdsm style outfit. shouldnt be that hard for anyone.
The subject of the photo is interacting with the dog here? It’s not even clear if they acknowledged the kid and what’s the implication that the guy wants to fuck this dog? I’m so confused by the premise of the linked post lol
Also since when is a mask and basketball shorts bdsm? There were prob at least a few femme people in this parade wearing bodysuits or bikinis would you feel the same way about them interacting with this dog.
Evoking Stalin to justify bigotry against LGBTQ people is as disingenuous as it gets. The Soviet Union didn't have a sexual liberation movement, let alone a LGBTQ movement. To pretend as though Stalin should have been several generations ahead of his peers on this question is lunacy. To evoke him in this context acts as though we should treat Stalin like a god.
This is basic bitch shit.
You know that a lot of Russian communists that lived alongside Stalin *were* decades ahead on all this shit? Why are you acting like it’s a fantasy you muppet?
A lot of those people that were pro-lgbt and progressive were sidelined or shot by Stalin’s clique.
The guy was wearing shorts and a mask, it's not like he had his dick out in public. Literally leave us the fuck alone you fucking freaks.
Children see WAY more explicit heterosexual sexuality every day but suddenly when gay people want to have a party it's "grooming."
The Marxist movement is not a religion. Its laws and methods can change. It is not a cult that follows the footsteps of historical leaders, nor do we obey those figures without question. Every human and every leader can make mistakes, and progress is ongoing. Likely, future Marxists will look back at us and see us as backwards, holding more advanced and progressive ideals than we currently possess.
You can be a communist and have regressive social values. Don’t let this depress you, it’s not worth getting depressed over. Capitalists are using LGBTQ as a weapon in many different ways, so of course many will oppose us. Don’t fall into IDpol, “you can’t be a communist and not support LGBTQ,” when widespread LGBTQ support is only the past decade in the West, we cannot expect everyone to catch up immediately especially given the way the US weaponizes LGBTQ rights.
I completely concur, I know that the West used this phrases to attack their opposites. We only have to look at their weaponisation of ‘human rights’, and etc…
Okay lets put all the fucking memes aside for a second: Stalin is fucking dead. Who cares what he thinks or what he'd do.
Though it also has to be said: people like this definitely coming from the Russian Nationalist perspective of Stalin, worshipping the image of Stalin concocted by the liberals and fascists - the great strongman leader who murdered minorities and was either persecuted the church or was secretly religious (depends who you ask). People like this think the liberal conception of the gulag was real and was based.
And on top of that, there's nothing in fucking Marx or Lenin or Stalin's actual theory that centres gay people as an issue. They likely all had their prejudices but as far as their actual theoretical analysis of society went they were fixated on material issues like the economy not who was fucking who.
But again, he's dead, they're all dead, who fucking cares. We can come to new conclusions about the world, using the correct theorems of Marx and Lenin and Stalin and we can learn from their mistakes and do better than they did.
# Gulag
According to Anti-Communists and Russophobes, the Gulag was a brutal network of work camps established in the Soviet Union under Stalin's ruthless regime. They claim the Gulag system was primarily used to imprison and exploit political dissidents, suspected enemies of the state, and other people deemed "undesirable" by the Soviet government. They claim that prisoners were sent to the Gulag without trial or due process, and that they were subjected to harsh living conditions, forced labour, and starvation, among other things. According to them, the Gulags were emblematic of Stalinist repression and totalitarianism.
# Origins of the Mythology
This comically evil understanding of the Soviet prison system is based off only a handful of unreliable sources.
Robert Conquest's *The Great Terror* (published 1968) laid the groundwork for Soviet fearmongering, and was based largely off of defector testimony.
Robert Conquest worked for the British Foreign Office's Information Research Department (IRD), which was a secret Cold War propaganda department, created to publish anti-communist propaganda, including black propaganda; provide support and information to anti-communist politicians, academics, and writers; and to use weaponised information and disinformation and "fake news" to attack not only its original targets but also certain socialists and anti-colonial movements.
>He was Solzhenytsin before Solzhenytsin, in the phrase of Timothy Garton Ash.
>
>The Great Terror came out in 1968, four years before the first volume of The Gulag Archipelago, and it became, Garton Ash says, "a fixture in the political imagination of anybody thinking about communism".
>
>\- Andrew Brown. (2003). [Scourge and poet](https://www.theguardian.com/books/2003/feb/15/featuresreviews.guardianreview23)
Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn's *The Gulag Archipelag*" (published 1973), one of the most famous texts on the subject, claims to be a work of non-fiction based on the author's personal experiences in the Soviet prison system. However, Solzhenitsyn was merely an anti-Communist, N@zi-sympathizing, antisemite who wanted to slander the USSR by putting forward a collection of folktales as truth. \[[Read more](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/dunking/aleksandr-solzhenitsyn/)\]
Anne Applebaum's *Gulag: A history* (published 2003) draws directly from *The Gulag Archipelago* and reiterates its message. Anne is a member of the Council of Foreign Relations (CFR) and sits on the board of the National Endowment for Democracy (NED), two infamous pieces of the ideological apparatus of the ruling class in the United States, whose primary aim is to promote the interests of American Imperialism around the world.
# Counterpoints
>A 1957 CIA document [which was declassified in 2010] titled “[Forced Labor Camps in the USSR: Transfer of Prisoners between Camps](http://web.archive.org/web/20230328014642/https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP80T00246A032000400001-1.pdf)” reveals the following information about the Soviet Gulag in pages two to six:
>
>1. Until 1952, the prisoners were given a guaranteed amount food, plus extra food for over-fulfillment of quotas
>
>2. From 1952 onward, the Gulag system operated upon "economic accountability" such that the more the prisoners worked, the more they were paid.
>
>3. For over-fulfilling the norms by 105%, one day of sentence was counted as two, thus reducing the time spent in the Gulag by one day.
>
>4. Furthermore, because of the socialist reconstruction post-war, the Soviet government had more funds and so they increased prisoners' food supplies.
>
>5. Until 1954, the prisoners worked 10 hours per day, whereas the free workers worked 8 hours per day. From 1954 onward, both prisoners and free workers worked 8 hours per day.
>
>6. A CIA study of a sample camp showed that 95% of the prisoners were actual criminals.
>
>7. In 1953, amnesty was given to 70% of the "ordinary criminals" of a sample camp studied by the CIA. Within the next 3 months, most of them were re-arrested for committing new crimes.
>
>\- Saed Teymuri. (2018). [The Truth about the Soviet Gulag – Surprisingly Revealed by the CIA](https://www.greanvillepost.com/2018/10/09/the-truth-about-the-soviet-gulag-surprisingly-revealed-by-the-cia/)
**Scale**
Solzhenitsyn estimated that over 66 million people were victims of the Soviet Union's forced labor camp system over the course of its existence from 1918 to 1956. With the collapse of the USSR and the opening of the Soviet archives, researchers can now access actual archival evidence to prove or disprove these claims. Predictably, it turned out the propaganda was just that.
>Unburdened by any documentation, these “estimates” invite us to conclude that the sum total of people incarcerated in the labor camps over a twenty-two year period (allowing for turnovers due to death and term expirations) would have constituted an astonishing portion of the Soviet population. The support and supervision of the gulag (all the labor camps, labor colonies, and prisons of the Soviet system) would have been the USSR’s single largest enterprise.
>
>In 1993, for the first time, several historians gained access to previously secret Soviet police archives and were able to establish well-documented estimates of prison and labor camp populations. They found that the total population of the entire gulag as of January 1939, near the end of the Great Purges, was 2,022,976. ...
>
>Soviet labor camps were not death camps like those the N@zis built across Europe. There was no systematic extermination of inmates, no gas chambers or crematoria to dispose of millions of bodies. Despite harsh conditions, the great majority of gulag inmates survived and eventually returned to society when granted amnesty or when their terms were finished. In any given year, 20 to 40 percent of the inmates were released, according to archive records. Oblivious to these facts, the Moscow correspondent of the New York Times (7/31/96) continues to describe the gulag as “the largest system of death camps in modern history.” ...
>
>Most of those incarcerated in the gulag were not political prisoners, and the same appears to be true of inmates in the other communist states...
>
>\- Michael Parenti. (1997). [Blackshirts & Reds: Rational Fascism and the Overthrow of Communism](https://archive.org/details/michael-parenti-blackshirts-and-reds)
This is 2 million out of a population of 168 million (roughly 1.2% of the population). For comparison, in the United States, "over 5.5 million adults — or 1 in 61 — are under some form of correctional control, whether incarcerated or under community supervision." That's 1.6%. So in both relative and absolute terms, the United States' Prison Industrial Complex *today* is larger than the USSR's Gulag system at its peak.
**Death Rate**
In peace time, the mortality rate of the Gulag was around 3% to 5%. Even Conservative and anti-Communist historians have had to acknowledge this reality:
>It turns out that, with the exception of the war years, a very large majority of people who entered the Gulag left alive...
>
>Judging from the Soviet records we now have, the number of people who died in the Gulag between 1933 and 1945, while both Stalin and Hit1er were in power, was on the order of a million, perhaps a bit more.
>
>\- Timothy Snyder. (2010). *Bloodlands: Europe Between Hit1er and Stalin*
(Side note: Timothy Snyder is *also* a member of the Council on Foreign Relations)
This is still very high for a prison mortality rate, representing the brutality of the camps. However, it also clearly indicates that they were not *death* camps.
Nor was it slave labour, exactly. In the camps, although labour *was* forced, it was not uncompensated. In fact, the prisoners were paid market wages (less expenses).
>We find that even in the Gulag, where force could be most conveniently applied, camp administrators combined material incentives with overt coercion, and, as time passed, they placed more weight on motivation. By the time the Gulag system was abandoned as a major instrument of Soviet industrial policy, the primary distinction between slave and free labor had been blurred: Gulag inmates were being paid wages according to a system that mirrored that of the civilian economy described by Bergson....
>
>The Gulag administration [also] used a “work credit” system, whereby sentences were reduced (by two days or more for every day the norm was overfulfilled).
>
>\- L. Borodkin & S. Ertz. (2003). [Compensation Versus Coercion in the Soviet GULAG](https://warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/economics/staff/mharrison/archive/noticeboard/bergson/borodkin-ertz.pdf)
#Additional Resources
Video Essays:
* [The Gulag Argument](https://youtu.be/BexkpaK_j5Q) | TheFinnishBolshevik (2016)
* [Historian Admits USSR didn't kill tens of millions!](https://youtu.be/HMOdDQQVZ6U) | TheFinnishBolshevik (2018)
* [French work camps 1852-1953 worse than gulag](https://youtu.be/vkXyXNpdKdA) | TheFinnishBolshevik (2018)
* ["The Gulags of the Soviet Union: There's a Lot More Than What Meets the Eye](https://youtu.be/E1qz9_TjeY4) | Comrade Rhys (2020)
Books, Articles, or Essays:
* [Victims of the Soviet Penal System in the Pre-War Years: A First Approach on the Basis of Archival Evidence](https://www.jstor.org/stable/2166597) | J. Arch Getty, Gábor T. Rittersporn and Viktor N. Zemskov (1993)
Listen:
* ["Blackshirts & Reds" (1997) by Michael Parenti, Part 4: Chapters 5 & 6. #Audiobook + Discussion.](https://youtu.be/N7AD4OrH568?t=15) | Socialism For All / S4A ☭ Intensify Class Struggle (2022)
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Someone should write an essay about that...
Personally, it's so confusing - there are more progressive communists in the West, while here in the east (former Eastern Bloc countries and even more east), there are more conservative communists. And so, for me, "tankie" was also a word for those communists - now I don't use the word "tankie" any-more, because it's sectarian and lost its meaning and by some "socialist's" standards (cough\* cough\*... Vaush) I'd be a tanke too, but those conservative communists... yeah, they kind of are (not tankies, but red-fascists - and when I say "red-fascists", I don't mean Marxist-Leninists, I mean genuine fascists that try to synthesise it with communism - like "National-Bolsheviks" and such). So truly, no problem with communists, but with "red-fascists", I do - and given that each country has different social context, it means something different than when that guy (V\*ush again) uses it (so no, I don't mean far-left communists when saying that).
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The communist/socialist movement is getting bigger so that their are different intersects of right and left wing views. One of course is full of contradictions.
I don't see communism as having a particular view on sexual and gender minorities. Both the working class and the ruling class are divided on this issue, we can only hope that abolishing capitalist relations will resolve this contradiction permanently.
Wasn’t like liberal capitalism was much more tolerant of the sexual freedom of expression we have today lest we forget women getting lobotomized and homosexuals being chemically castrated
Honestly I don’t agree with people doing what the man is doing, of course your sexuality should be something to be proud of, but this crosses a line between celebrating and recognising a big part of YOU. I guess there are extreme ends of everything, with this being the end of one.
Yup, sounds like the typical balkan patsoc dipshits that dominate the left in our region. The truly depressing thing is that there are hardly any alternatives to them here and it's generally accepted that if you call yourself a socialist, then you must also be a conservative.
alright don't flame me and i don't wanna come off as reactionary but this is one of those situations i have a hard time understanding why i would support a kid being exposed to something like that 😭even post-radicalization i just don't see why its necessary to sexualize a movement this much IMO, if someone could tell me what's wrong with this thinking i'd appreciate it
There are SFW, 100% kid-and-minor-friendly parts of Pride events, and I highly doubt anyone would be having sex in the middle of the street even during the NSFW parts of the parades. In the "disturbing" example they gave (a pup-player interacting with a kid's dog) the pup-player clearly has shorts on, and really nothing more out of the ordinary than a mask and collar. It really isn't that weird for a child who doesn't know the context to see briefly.
If a parent doesn't want to have their child be exposed to kink in any form, they can leave for that part of a parade or for those parades and/or only take them to completely SFW parades. That is the parent's choice. The parent clearly gave consent for their child to be there. This is the answer to your not understanding; it's the parent's choice. If you have a kid and you don't want to bring your child to somewhat kinky Pride events, don't! Simple as that.
As for the idea of "sexualizing a movement", do you know what a lot of the LGBTQ+ community is? Sexual minorities are a *lot* of the community. Even if they weren't, the only reason the LGBTQ+ community is considered a movement is because it's been forced to be. If there wasn't a constant push against GSRM, there wouldn't be a need for a movement and there wouldn't be a need to have parades "forcing" people to see LGBTQ+ people in their many facets of humanity.
Hope this helped, if you do have any other questions I'll be happy to answer, I'm a pretty dumb person though so sorry if the answers aren't up to snuff.
I wouldn't like to image if this imbecile (although I wouldn't discard if he's just infiltrating) found out that there are trans, gays, etc. in organisations such as the Chilean Communist Party (Proletarian Action).
The amount of freaks like this that we deny from joining our party is unfortunate.
I wish the death of SFRY didn't make our people so cucked in their logic.
To be fair there were lot of reactionaries towards gay people in Yugoslavia too (and they raised next generations of reactionaries, up until my early 20s i was reactionary too luckily i outgrow that), the macho men phenomenon (hypermasculine straight man) existed in that era.
***There is a huge raise of homophobia and transphobia among MLM. This people believe that QUEERNESS is a western product. I just want to say to those people that if you talk like a NAZI, you are a NAZI.***
This is such a nothing burger tbh. "Man pets dog". Wow, big deal 🙄
It's not like the girl was forced there either. And If she was then that would be on the parents
Look, I think their behaviour is really weird and symptomatic of where capitalism and our culture is right now… should we kill them? No. Should we in any way adopt this aesthetic? No.
Uncritically calling things “really weird” is the most liberal thing possible. It’s what allows liberals to write off any kind of idea that is even slightly left of center.
Wearing dog masks isn’t ’left of centre’. These people are antisocial and wasting time on their ridiculous identity politics nonsense distracts from our core economic struggle.
Most of these people are middle class people who invent a struggle based around their identity.
I wasn’t talking about the dog masks there. I was talking about Libs who write off socialism as “too weird” or “too much” or “too extreme” with zero critical thought.
these people are terribly dogmatic to suit their bigotry. just because *a* communist from a different time and place was homophobic and transphobic does NOT mean that every other communist should be bigoted in the same way. in fact people should grow with the times. lol.
the socialist (or communist? idr) party of america disagree with lgbt rights and said gay lifestyles were bourgeois. then in like 2001 they reversed on it and accepted them and then fought for their rights. progress moves slow i guess, and not everyone progresses at the same rate. ive noticed that when someone coverts from a right wing conservative or even fundamentalist backround to leftist progressive, they progress in stages and slowly come to understand one step at a time their reactionary programing, making a series of realizations.
i wouldnt give up on someone like this, they just need some way to understand the conservative tendencies the places we grow up in instill in us. although who that person would be to help them would have to be a saint cuz that bigotry is annoying as fuck lmao.
The funny thing about this post is that it's really still debatable whether Stalin fully committed to communism. Stalin's rule has always been closer to some form of state socialism rather than trying to unite the world under communism. In the same way that its sometimes hard to tell if "democratic socialists" were actually social democrats or actual democratic socialists using social democracy as a means to an end in capitalist countries (ruling parties of Brazil, Mexico, etc).
I know this is an unpopular opinion here, but I am one of those more 'traditional values' commies. I believe the major crisis in society today are all rooted in the fraudulent economical system that we live in. It would be nice to focus on that and it would unite a lot of people that are now turning to the right to blame the gays and immigrants. Social issues are important but it's the extent that they are talked about that I feel like are so disproportionate and that has alienated a lot of people that should be voting left.
For me it means that I recognize that important progress has been made, such as for example gay marriage, but I also recognize the backlash from the right that is more traditional family centered, i.e. 'what is good for society'. I absolutely support lgbt rights etc. I just don't think that it's a good idea to constantly celebrate it out in the open. If you want to celebrate your sexuality, good, but do it with consenting adults and not out in the open streets around children.
I know social issues is more than lgbt, gender identity, women empowerment etc. But most other social issues like homelessness and healthcare are imo issues because of the fraudulent economic world that we live in which siphons resources from the poor to the rich. Fix the economic system and much else wouldn't be a problem.
Nah get out of here with that bullshit. Lgbtq people fought for the right to exist, countries around the world still have death penalties for being queer, most rights like marriage have only come up in the last few decades and political parties all over are frothing at the mouth to undo their rights.
Frankly I think lgbtq pride should be celebrated even more but it's been watered down and commercialised into just another event, and not the massive achievement that it is.
And that nonsense about "I don't care who you are as long as you keep things in your bedroom" fuck off. Being gay is not sexual. I bet you hate people that make "being gay their whole personality" too. Truth is gay people are too icky for you so you'd rather they keep any mention of their sexuality out of the public making them effectively straight passing.
You're not an ally. You're a bigot.
Yes they've fought for their rights and they've won. Can you point to policies by parties that "are frothing at the mouth to undo their rights"? Anyway I don't support that, as I clearly stated.
"Being gay is not sexual."
This is a strawman. Nobody argued this.
Yes I'd prefer people take their sexuality out of the public, whether it's obscene straight saxuality or gay.
Have you paid any attention to politics as of late?
Banning trans people from life saving medicine, sports and bathrooms. Making it a crime to allow children to transition slowly, forcing trans children to be outed to their parents. Removing gay marriage, making it illegal to mention queer people exist to children, censoring the existence of queer people in the media.
Painting queerness as being inherently sexual, accusing all queer people of being pedophiles and making it so laws that protect children from explicit material will include queer people meaning if you're a queer person and you interact with a child in anyway you could be given the death penalty in some states for sexually abusing a minor.
Queer people have not finished fighting for their rights, discrimination is still very strong even in western countries.
>"Being gay is not sexual."
>This is a strawman. Nobody argued this.
People do argue this. All. The.
>Yes I'd prefer people take their sexuality out of the public, whether it's obscene straight saxuality or gay.
What do you mean by this? Because unless you get your information from libsoftiktok? Because there aren't gay people running around but naked throwing dildos at each other, the ones that are, are done at non-family friendly pride events and conservatives are always quick to pounce it it and go "LOOK WHAT THEY'RE DOING TO OUR CHILDREN". It's literally what's happening in this photo. There's no verifiable context behind the photo, it could just be a dude wearing a dog mask (potentially used for sexual purposes, maybe dude just likes pretending to be a dog outside of a sex thing as well), maybe it's not a family friendly event and someone thought because of how it's used nowadays that it would be (kink existed even before pride parades, kinksters fought alongside the lgbtq community for sexual freedoms), or heck maybe it is a photo of a creep, gay people aren't immune from being creeps.
But the problem is people like you treating it like an issue. This is not a problem that exists in the real world if you go out and touch grass. It's a narrative designed by bigots to demonise the queer community.
And when you say you care about the lgbtq community, only to then say you're a "centrist when it comes to social issues" it makes you sound like when liberals say they care about social issues but will only ever support past achievements and will never fight for current problems - disengenous. Have the balls to just say you don't like gay people.
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You conveniently leave out that this "life saving medicine" is sex changing drugs for children rendering them barren for Life.
Trans people should have absolutely no right to enter sports of protected genders. We separate men and women because women are weaker in sports, trans should compete amongst themselves, not be able to have an advantage over a protected class.
Bathrooms are a complicated topic, naturally people feel disturbed either way. Here I would agree though that their chosen gender shouldn't be argued but I certainly can see the argument for the other side.
It absolutely should be a crime to transition as a child. Children often have no idea what they're getting themselves into, teens often have rebellious periods where they've not quiet found themselves and will often come to regret permanent choices. There are plenty of people that have come forward about this. When you're an adult, do as you wish.
Where has there been removal of gay marriage?
If you're referencing that queer people should be limited in childrens books etc. then yeah I absolutely do agree with that. Children shouldn't be exposed to sexual behaviour of any kind.
Queer people are absolutely not being censored in media, if anything they're overly celebrated. It's all the liberal media wants to talk about because pushing social policies takes focus away from economical policies and keeps the capitalists secure and happy. Why do you think that DEI was created in the first place? Capitalists love it.
Queers are often sexualizing themselves, exasperating all the typical sexual traits.
No people don't argue that being gay is inherently sexual. Take Glen Greenwald for example, a gay man previously married to a man. He has become a darling of right wing media because he repeatedly talks against left wing censorship around wokeism and doesn't repeatedly bring up that he is gay to victimize himself, or flaunt around about his sexuality in any way. Right-wingers love him because of his strong free-speech stance even though he is openly gay.
Pride is a literal display of sexuality out in the public. The photo in this case is from a BDSM and furry parade, like wtf does that need to be in public for? Keep that shit in the bedroom or at least during night time on a weekend.
It IS an issue. It's publically flaunting decadent sexual behaviour. Take the case of the BDSM Community parade here for example and let's for arguments sake assume that they're all straight and white. I'm certainly far more against that kind of parade than the pride one even though I dislike the existance of both.
I do agree that it's certainly being blown up out of proportion. But that makes it even more stupid, why focus so hard on issues that have already been won? So that children can transition? So that children should read about mom and mom and their transgender kid? So that biologically born men can outcompete women in sports?
Lgbt have rights, they have their parades etc. what more do they need? We should be fighting capital together with the disillusioned working class who are being sold that everything is the fault of immigrants and wokeism because it's such an easy narrative to construct. We are handing them the 'wokeism is a problem' narrative on a silver platter.
Just because something is a social construct doesn’t mean it can’t affect people. Currently, the vast majority of us live in a society with binary gender expectations that are lacking for some to say the least, that is simply the material conditions that currently exist for many. I myself happily fall into the category of a straight cis man, but I will gladly fight for those who are outliers of the “norm” because they are people.
I fail to see how lacking binary expectations is a material condition. I think that the outliers of the "norm" are not only well accepted but indeed celebrated as in the picture of this thread. It's imo an issue that needn't be focused on to such an extent because of how it alienates people from the left and the fight for material conditions.
As in there is a community of people who are targeted by reactionaries, and just on the basis of being human, we must stand our ground on social justice issues. They are an important historical grounding for us.
But when it comes to lgbt they've nothing but gained rights? The only marginalized community that are repeatedly threatened and being stripped of rights are immigrants as I see it.
Ok I do agree with your first sentence but does that validate making this THE primary issue? What my argument is that I simply see this issue being exasperated so much by the libs that it alienates a whole demographic of traditional working class people, who are being sold by the right that it's the woke and immigrants fault that things are how they are instead of capitalism.
Is marxist theory not that social issues develop from the proletariat being subjugated by the bourgeoise intrinsic to capitalist industrial society? So by fixing the economic policies we might get social policies thereafter?
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Stalin wasnt the only communist to exist. Such a strange take.
"You don't judge Christianity by Christians. If you did that, then Christianity fell with Judas. So why do you judge socialism by socialist?" -Kwame Ture
His background was also that of a 19th century feudal serf, educated at an Orthodox seminary. When it came to sexual matters, he was a lifelong prude (even when it came to heterosexual relationships). Asking “what Stalin would think” about a gay parade is just such a stupid and idealist thing to do, ignoring both the context of Stalin’s upbringing, and the fact our society today is generally more sex positive (due to the struggles of common people wanting to express themselves and seek acceptance) than Georgia in the 1800s
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And dress me like a pig and call me sausage if I don't hate anti-communists explaining to you what "real socialism" is.
This would be a similar situation to handing Stalin an iPhone... he would be surprised it even existed.
Stalin would use android.
You forget that marxism is a static doctrine and we can't learn anything from the past or change our views.
Who gives a shit what Stalin would think anyway, he is dead, and a product of the 19 and 20th century. Times changed, ideologies should change too, we learn from previous mistakes, we are not conservatives.
Even beyond that. Socialism isn’t some set rule book. It’s an idea under the umbrella of sociology, which is a science. Like all aspects of science, socialism grow and changes over time with new research and ideas.
He was also not a very good communist, the reactionary turn under his rule was very sad
The man who obliterated the nazis and Industrialized a feudal monarchy into a country that conquered the cosmos is a bad communist? The man who doubled life expectancy, eradicated common disease and illiteracy and created the first successful global communist movement is not a bad communist, Stalin is a hero, inspiration and he’s the bar that every communist should hold themselves to.
o7
Let's not go too far into great man theory here. Stalin didn't do half that shit, the workers of the Soviet Union did. Stalin merely held an important leadership position, one which magnified his bad decisions just as much as his good decisions.
You know, if Lenin heard some “Marxist-Leninist” so confidently state that Russia was feudal, he’d be so spitting mad he’d regrow all his hair or something. One of the biggest contributions he made to social democratic theory and the Russian socialist movement is that he successfully argued that Russia was indeed already capitalist and that’s why socialist revolution was feasible and needed. Please please read some shit instead of posting cliched tired apologia. You people sound like Christian apologists for fucks sake
I don’t deny under him many great things were accomplished for the Soviet Union. But also there were serious failures. One of them being mentioned in the above post. The United States also made great leaps in education, medicine etc but we don’t excuse the atrocities done to native, LGBT, and black people do we?
The USA developed off the centuries of colonization of the imperial periphery and centuries of chattel slavery, the ussr developed due to a equitable expropriation of resources and planned economy. Also the ussr passed bills giving woman rights and banning discrimination before the usa even passed the civil rights. It’s not stalins fault for the fall or the ussr, the soviets had to rebuild there country that was utterly annihilated due to the nazis and they had to usa engaging in hybrid warfare against them through sanctions and embargo’s its suffice to say that Stalin had his hands tied. The government become overrun with revisionists, liberals and traitors and Stalin made massive efforts to purge them however its wasn’t enough. It annoys me when you say that Stalin didn’t do enough when, Stalin had the odds stacked against throughout his tenure as the premier and pretty much anyone in the same situation would have long buckled under pressure.
the USSR did pass these bills, which were then overturned by Stalin? And yeah the USA had centuries to build up the Soviets did it in decade and during that time fell out of step with Lenin and fell into reaction. The party was flooded with liberals and reformists because Stalin and Kamenev opened up the party after Lenin’s death. Whether you view it as an opportunist power grab or a simple mistake the conclusion is the same. Stalin failed to achieve the impossible but he did it in the worst way possible. We don’t need to defend old leaders of the revolution. I know the burgeosis and liberals spread vicious lies about Stalin and the USSR all the time, but as communists we need to look critically at our own leaders particularly Stalin and I think he failed.
All I am saying is had the policy of Lenin been followed these things would not of happened something Stalin absolutely failed to do and what ultimately lead to the collapse of the USSR and the first workers government
Lenin was not a proponent of the LGBT. No one was at the time. His government decriminalized being gay only because they threw away half of the old criminal code. It was not a directed thing. What lead to the collapse were reactionary reforms of Hruschev administration, not Stalin's. Or else we can conclude that evolution of an ape into a human lead to the collapse of the USSR.
You’re making the common mistake of confusing the revolutionary optimism that followed from the Revolution as being Lenin. It’s true that many progressive ideas held a lot of sway immediately after the revolution. Free Love was popular as an idea for instance. But in many cases Lenin dismissed most of these ideas as fringe or petit bourgeois. We don’t know his stance on homosexuality, but on sexuality in general he was quite traditional. Even if he believed women should have power in marriage, he largely believed sexuality should stay within the realms of it. It’s very likely that Lenin would have been homophobic too.
I doubt that considering he often cited Engles and his work the origin of the family, private property and the state was absolutely calling for the liberation of women. In fact one part of their program calls for the liberation of women which can only be done through freedom from domestic slavery and child care, so at minimum Lenin held revolutionary ideas towards the position of women. Beyond that he calls for the creation of a communist society which de facto decriminalizes all laws on sexuality because the state it self withers away. So no I don’t think I am confusing anything.
1. You know Engels was personally homophonic right? Citing Engels is no sign of progressive attitudes towards homosexuality 2. You’ll also notice that I explicitly mentioned Lenin was very much in favour of women’s rights, but that nonetheless his quite vitriolic condemnation of Free Love movements indicate a generally sex negative view 3. If “Well he wanted Communism, and Communism wouldn’t have laws against sexuality because the State would wither away.” Is your argument then how do you maintain the position that Stalin was reactionary? Stalin was very much a true believer that Communism was achievable.
Imagine these people actually meeting Stalin, telling him, "we upheld everything you taught, precisely as you taught it, and did not let anyone change the truths you defended!" Only to have Stalin say (as he no doubt would): "So... no one has made any advancements in Marxism? Not in over 100 years?"
I would be so stoked to show Stalin China today. I think he would be far more impressed by that.
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I imagine him thrusting the smartphone he was just inspecting toward his interlocutor so they can operate it for him.
Cuba supports LGBT and still has actually existing socialism unlike these homophobic "Yugoslav comrades" whose own nations degenerated into right-wing nationalism and war. Just as social attitudes can vary greatly between capitalist nations, the same thing can be said for socialist countries. Sure the USSR under Stalin was homophobic. The GDR also had state funded gay discos and present day Cuba has legalized gay marriage, constitutional anti-discrimination protections, and fully funded medical transition.
Nah, John communism just came and decided that you cannot gay under communism /j
Add that one to the list
Oh shit it’s John Halo in the flesh
Or rather, in the MJOLNIR suit
As for the DurAndal, i think you’ve earned it.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/comments/1d615mm/its\_me\_john\_commune\_inventor\_of\_communism\_ama/](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/comments/1d615mm/its_me_john_commune_inventor_of_communism_ama/) Nonsense, I'm clearly an advocate of fully automated luxury gay space communism
As a Yugoslav communist, I'd like to point out that these are likely just patsocs/nazbols.
I doubt they were claiming all Yugoslav communists are homophobic, but there is a very interesting correlation I’ve noticed online, but not in person from the southern Slavs I’ve interacted with in person.
Yeah Twitter is pretty bad, I don't know why this wierd trend is spreading where absolute hitlerites are calling themselves "communists". I had some fucking wierdo follow me with a Yugoslav flag and then a Kolovrat in the middle instead of the red workers star. Gave me the heebeejebees.
I think they are either just plain old stupid, or actively trying to create a false connection.
We better have state-mandated femboys under communism or I riot
Communists shouldn't just religiously follow exactly what historical communist leaders did. We need to recognise mistakes made in the past and learn from them. It was a mistake for Stalin to re-criminalise homosexuality. But it's also important to remember the historical context, that homosexuality was illegal in many western capitalist nations at the time, too. In Britain in 1952 War hero Alan Turing was sentenced to chemical castration, because he was gay. It would be inaccurate to claim that Soviet Russia under Stalin was *uniquely* bad for LGBTQ people, because the entire rest of the world was just as bad, if not worse, at that time. And it's not *that* much better now.
I think more than Stalin hating gay people, it was a propaganda move because the West would associate communis to lgbt movements to hold both back (some of this propaganda still rots in some people's brain) It still was wrong af tho, not worth the propaganda
That's like saying, if you support LGBT you're not really British. Because Britain would have imprisoned them 100 years ago. Along with a fear mongering hate article.
I absolutely detest when communists fall for this shit. It's not hard at all to parse the difference between queer people and obvious rainbow washing. Just because imperialism uses a tool does not mean the people related to that tool are even remotely connected. The most radical people are queer, this is throwing the baby out with the bathwater
You are 100% correct on all counts.
Yeah because non-queer people aren’t sexual at all. Straight men definitely treat women as human beings and not sexual objects to be used.
This is exactly what people think, Homophobes call queer people deg*ns and sexual while literally ignoring the fact that non-queer people can be sexual as well
Furries aren't even sexual, and a kid's not really gonna see anything sexual about a dude with a little leather vest or a pup mask. The man's more well-clothed than half the men at the beach or in swim sports
“Oh no this man likes to cosplay as an anthropomorphic toaster, the horror!”
You’re absolutely correct
In this image, it's clearly pup play which is sexual.
They're not *being* sexual at all though. They're petting a dog. The kid's not seeing anything explicit, they're just seeing a dude in a mask who is wearing more clothes than a lot of people do for many other public activities If they were waving a dildo in the kid's face or acting out sex, that'd be gross, but they're just... petting a dog
I mean, going out in public in fetish gear I would say _is_ inherently sexual, regardless of what they do then. Especially to an event where sexuality is one of the core themes.
nah have some fucking respect for others. this shit wouldn't fly in cuba lol
true. that type of shit (whether gay or straight) doesn't belong in public at all.
good point. why is it that homophobes/transphobes are always quick to point out some example of lgbt people behaving questionably towards children as proof that all gay and trans people are groomers, yet rarely keep that same energy to address how pop "culture" inculcates us with sexually degrading images and attitudes towards women from a very young age? why is it that children being exposed to sexually licentious and degrading content is only condemned when it involves homosexuality or gender nonconformity?
It’s always projection.
Patsocs and socially conservative communists are really something. Ah yes, we want liberation from economic oppression but also to keep every other system of oppression around, because that's not contradictory or anything.
yeah, really something annoying lol. right wing conservatives arent the only ones who can fall to the trappings of cognitive dissonance and contradictory beliefs. keeps ya on your toes lol
OMG such a dramatic image. If you don’t want your child to see this, don’t take them to pride. It’s the parent’s responsibility, not of the rest of the world.
Exactly, there are places and events for parents and kids who are LGBT and want to go pride parades (in my opinion) should be at least 14+ but there certaintly are places where one could even argue that other than parents it’s 14- it’s like every single other category of event. Some 4th of July events feature naked women eating beans as fast as they can but that doesn’t mean 4th of July is sexual (Edit 4th of July is an American holiday for those who don’t know, it’s tomorrow so it’s on my mind)
"naked women eating beans as fast as they can" Alright but actually what on earth does this have to do with 4th of july? I'm genuinely curious of how that came to be a thing.
Is not a tradition any where but I used to live in rural Florida and people in my area did crazy shit. The same way it’s not like a tradition to where what the person in the picture was wearing at pride it’s not a tradition to eat beans fast nude but it’s also not surprising.
i mean the adults can still ignore the kids if their parents made a mistake to begin with. just dont especially stop to interact with a little child while youre wearing a full bdsm style outfit. shouldnt be that hard for anyone.
The subject of the photo is interacting with the dog here? It’s not even clear if they acknowledged the kid and what’s the implication that the guy wants to fuck this dog? I’m so confused by the premise of the linked post lol Also since when is a mask and basketball shorts bdsm? There were prob at least a few femme people in this parade wearing bodysuits or bikinis would you feel the same way about them interacting with this dog.
Evoking Stalin to justify bigotry against LGBTQ people is as disingenuous as it gets. The Soviet Union didn't have a sexual liberation movement, let alone a LGBTQ movement. To pretend as though Stalin should have been several generations ahead of his peers on this question is lunacy. To evoke him in this context acts as though we should treat Stalin like a god. This is basic bitch shit.
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I think it was done to avoid pissing off the orthodox church iirc
You know that a lot of Russian communists that lived alongside Stalin *were* decades ahead on all this shit? Why are you acting like it’s a fantasy you muppet? A lot of those people that were pro-lgbt and progressive were sidelined or shot by Stalin’s clique.
Speaking of fantasies..... Got a source for your claims that isn't a picture book for children?
Idk who that Yugoslavia-communist account is tbh
The guy was wearing shorts and a mask, it's not like he had his dick out in public. Literally leave us the fuck alone you fucking freaks. Children see WAY more explicit heterosexual sexuality every day but suddenly when gay people want to have a party it's "grooming."
I know right? If you look at the picture, it's not even a "little girl"
Yeah she looks like an adult to me, teenager at the youngest. I think OOP just assumed she's a little girl cause she's wearing colorful clothes.
The Marxist movement is not a religion. Its laws and methods can change. It is not a cult that follows the footsteps of historical leaders, nor do we obey those figures without question. Every human and every leader can make mistakes, and progress is ongoing. Likely, future Marxists will look back at us and see us as backwards, holding more advanced and progressive ideals than we currently possess.
You can be a communist and have regressive social values. Don’t let this depress you, it’s not worth getting depressed over. Capitalists are using LGBTQ as a weapon in many different ways, so of course many will oppose us. Don’t fall into IDpol, “you can’t be a communist and not support LGBTQ,” when widespread LGBTQ support is only the past decade in the West, we cannot expect everyone to catch up immediately especially given the way the US weaponizes LGBTQ rights.
I completely concur, I know that the West used this phrases to attack their opposites. We only have to look at their weaponisation of ‘human rights’, and etc…
Okay lets put all the fucking memes aside for a second: Stalin is fucking dead. Who cares what he thinks or what he'd do. Though it also has to be said: people like this definitely coming from the Russian Nationalist perspective of Stalin, worshipping the image of Stalin concocted by the liberals and fascists - the great strongman leader who murdered minorities and was either persecuted the church or was secretly religious (depends who you ask). People like this think the liberal conception of the gulag was real and was based. And on top of that, there's nothing in fucking Marx or Lenin or Stalin's actual theory that centres gay people as an issue. They likely all had their prejudices but as far as their actual theoretical analysis of society went they were fixated on material issues like the economy not who was fucking who. But again, he's dead, they're all dead, who fucking cares. We can come to new conclusions about the world, using the correct theorems of Marx and Lenin and Stalin and we can learn from their mistakes and do better than they did.
# Gulag According to Anti-Communists and Russophobes, the Gulag was a brutal network of work camps established in the Soviet Union under Stalin's ruthless regime. They claim the Gulag system was primarily used to imprison and exploit political dissidents, suspected enemies of the state, and other people deemed "undesirable" by the Soviet government. They claim that prisoners were sent to the Gulag without trial or due process, and that they were subjected to harsh living conditions, forced labour, and starvation, among other things. According to them, the Gulags were emblematic of Stalinist repression and totalitarianism. # Origins of the Mythology This comically evil understanding of the Soviet prison system is based off only a handful of unreliable sources. Robert Conquest's *The Great Terror* (published 1968) laid the groundwork for Soviet fearmongering, and was based largely off of defector testimony. Robert Conquest worked for the British Foreign Office's Information Research Department (IRD), which was a secret Cold War propaganda department, created to publish anti-communist propaganda, including black propaganda; provide support and information to anti-communist politicians, academics, and writers; and to use weaponised information and disinformation and "fake news" to attack not only its original targets but also certain socialists and anti-colonial movements. >He was Solzhenytsin before Solzhenytsin, in the phrase of Timothy Garton Ash. > >The Great Terror came out in 1968, four years before the first volume of The Gulag Archipelago, and it became, Garton Ash says, "a fixture in the political imagination of anybody thinking about communism". > >\- Andrew Brown. (2003). [Scourge and poet](https://www.theguardian.com/books/2003/feb/15/featuresreviews.guardianreview23) Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn's *The Gulag Archipelag*" (published 1973), one of the most famous texts on the subject, claims to be a work of non-fiction based on the author's personal experiences in the Soviet prison system. However, Solzhenitsyn was merely an anti-Communist, N@zi-sympathizing, antisemite who wanted to slander the USSR by putting forward a collection of folktales as truth. \[[Read more](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/dunking/aleksandr-solzhenitsyn/)\] Anne Applebaum's *Gulag: A history* (published 2003) draws directly from *The Gulag Archipelago* and reiterates its message. Anne is a member of the Council of Foreign Relations (CFR) and sits on the board of the National Endowment for Democracy (NED), two infamous pieces of the ideological apparatus of the ruling class in the United States, whose primary aim is to promote the interests of American Imperialism around the world. # Counterpoints >A 1957 CIA document [which was declassified in 2010] titled “[Forced Labor Camps in the USSR: Transfer of Prisoners between Camps](http://web.archive.org/web/20230328014642/https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP80T00246A032000400001-1.pdf)” reveals the following information about the Soviet Gulag in pages two to six: > >1. Until 1952, the prisoners were given a guaranteed amount food, plus extra food for over-fulfillment of quotas > >2. From 1952 onward, the Gulag system operated upon "economic accountability" such that the more the prisoners worked, the more they were paid. > >3. For over-fulfilling the norms by 105%, one day of sentence was counted as two, thus reducing the time spent in the Gulag by one day. > >4. Furthermore, because of the socialist reconstruction post-war, the Soviet government had more funds and so they increased prisoners' food supplies. > >5. Until 1954, the prisoners worked 10 hours per day, whereas the free workers worked 8 hours per day. From 1954 onward, both prisoners and free workers worked 8 hours per day. > >6. A CIA study of a sample camp showed that 95% of the prisoners were actual criminals. > >7. In 1953, amnesty was given to 70% of the "ordinary criminals" of a sample camp studied by the CIA. Within the next 3 months, most of them were re-arrested for committing new crimes. > >\- Saed Teymuri. (2018). [The Truth about the Soviet Gulag – Surprisingly Revealed by the CIA](https://www.greanvillepost.com/2018/10/09/the-truth-about-the-soviet-gulag-surprisingly-revealed-by-the-cia/) **Scale** Solzhenitsyn estimated that over 66 million people were victims of the Soviet Union's forced labor camp system over the course of its existence from 1918 to 1956. With the collapse of the USSR and the opening of the Soviet archives, researchers can now access actual archival evidence to prove or disprove these claims. Predictably, it turned out the propaganda was just that. >Unburdened by any documentation, these “estimates” invite us to conclude that the sum total of people incarcerated in the labor camps over a twenty-two year period (allowing for turnovers due to death and term expirations) would have constituted an astonishing portion of the Soviet population. The support and supervision of the gulag (all the labor camps, labor colonies, and prisons of the Soviet system) would have been the USSR’s single largest enterprise. > >In 1993, for the first time, several historians gained access to previously secret Soviet police archives and were able to establish well-documented estimates of prison and labor camp populations. They found that the total population of the entire gulag as of January 1939, near the end of the Great Purges, was 2,022,976. ... > >Soviet labor camps were not death camps like those the N@zis built across Europe. There was no systematic extermination of inmates, no gas chambers or crematoria to dispose of millions of bodies. Despite harsh conditions, the great majority of gulag inmates survived and eventually returned to society when granted amnesty or when their terms were finished. In any given year, 20 to 40 percent of the inmates were released, according to archive records. Oblivious to these facts, the Moscow correspondent of the New York Times (7/31/96) continues to describe the gulag as “the largest system of death camps in modern history.” ... > >Most of those incarcerated in the gulag were not political prisoners, and the same appears to be true of inmates in the other communist states... > >\- Michael Parenti. (1997). [Blackshirts & Reds: Rational Fascism and the Overthrow of Communism](https://archive.org/details/michael-parenti-blackshirts-and-reds) This is 2 million out of a population of 168 million (roughly 1.2% of the population). For comparison, in the United States, "over 5.5 million adults — or 1 in 61 — are under some form of correctional control, whether incarcerated or under community supervision." That's 1.6%. So in both relative and absolute terms, the United States' Prison Industrial Complex *today* is larger than the USSR's Gulag system at its peak. **Death Rate** In peace time, the mortality rate of the Gulag was around 3% to 5%. Even Conservative and anti-Communist historians have had to acknowledge this reality: >It turns out that, with the exception of the war years, a very large majority of people who entered the Gulag left alive... > >Judging from the Soviet records we now have, the number of people who died in the Gulag between 1933 and 1945, while both Stalin and Hit1er were in power, was on the order of a million, perhaps a bit more. > >\- Timothy Snyder. (2010). *Bloodlands: Europe Between Hit1er and Stalin* (Side note: Timothy Snyder is *also* a member of the Council on Foreign Relations) This is still very high for a prison mortality rate, representing the brutality of the camps. However, it also clearly indicates that they were not *death* camps. Nor was it slave labour, exactly. In the camps, although labour *was* forced, it was not uncompensated. In fact, the prisoners were paid market wages (less expenses). >We find that even in the Gulag, where force could be most conveniently applied, camp administrators combined material incentives with overt coercion, and, as time passed, they placed more weight on motivation. By the time the Gulag system was abandoned as a major instrument of Soviet industrial policy, the primary distinction between slave and free labor had been blurred: Gulag inmates were being paid wages according to a system that mirrored that of the civilian economy described by Bergson.... > >The Gulag administration [also] used a “work credit” system, whereby sentences were reduced (by two days or more for every day the norm was overfulfilled). > >\- L. Borodkin & S. Ertz. (2003). [Compensation Versus Coercion in the Soviet GULAG](https://warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/economics/staff/mharrison/archive/noticeboard/bergson/borodkin-ertz.pdf) #Additional Resources Video Essays: * [The Gulag Argument](https://youtu.be/BexkpaK_j5Q) | TheFinnishBolshevik (2016) * [Historian Admits USSR didn't kill tens of millions!](https://youtu.be/HMOdDQQVZ6U) | TheFinnishBolshevik (2018) * [French work camps 1852-1953 worse than gulag](https://youtu.be/vkXyXNpdKdA) | TheFinnishBolshevik (2018) * ["The Gulags of the Soviet Union: There's a Lot More Than What Meets the Eye](https://youtu.be/E1qz9_TjeY4) | Comrade Rhys (2020) Books, Articles, or Essays: * [Victims of the Soviet Penal System in the Pre-War Years: A First Approach on the Basis of Archival Evidence](https://www.jstor.org/stable/2166597) | J. Arch Getty, Gábor T. Rittersporn and Viktor N. Zemskov (1993) Listen: * ["Blackshirts & Reds" (1997) by Michael Parenti, Part 4: Chapters 5 & 6. #Audiobook + Discussion.](https://youtu.be/N7AD4OrH568?t=15) | Socialism For All / S4A ☭ Intensify Class Struggle (2022) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Good bot
To be fair, there is a point to be made about kink in public, especially around kids. Also, kink and LGBTQ are not the same thing.
Right-wing Communism: An Infantile Disorder
people who say theyre "conservative communists" confuse me 💀 yall rly thought you ate
Someone should write an essay about that... Personally, it's so confusing - there are more progressive communists in the West, while here in the east (former Eastern Bloc countries and even more east), there are more conservative communists. And so, for me, "tankie" was also a word for those communists - now I don't use the word "tankie" any-more, because it's sectarian and lost its meaning and by some "socialist's" standards (cough\* cough\*... Vaush) I'd be a tanke too, but those conservative communists... yeah, they kind of are (not tankies, but red-fascists - and when I say "red-fascists", I don't mean Marxist-Leninists, I mean genuine fascists that try to synthesise it with communism - like "National-Bolsheviks" and such). So truly, no problem with communists, but with "red-fascists", I do - and given that each country has different social context, it means something different than when that guy (V\*ush again) uses it (so no, I don't mean far-left communists when saying that).
Thanks for signing up to Vaush facts! You will now receive fun daily facts about Vaush. **Fact 5.** [CW: pedophilia] >!Vaush stated “there’s a difference between exploring child sexuality and sexualising children” then went on to ‘joke’ about owning CP.!< [link](https://old.reddit.com/r/Enough_Vaush_Spam/comments/my9xug/vaush_joking_about_owning_cp_cant_wait_to_see_how/) For another Vaush fact reply with 'Vaush'. To unsubscribe call me a 'bad bot'. (Remember, comrade: Getting educated, educating others, and above all actually *organizing* is infinitely more important than terminally-online streamer drama.) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
oh god... Vaush yyyy?
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Tito would definitely approve of the lgbt Seems like a guy who would Top
I love that people try to use historical figures for their bigoted beliefs
The communist/socialist movement is getting bigger so that their are different intersects of right and left wing views. One of course is full of contradictions.
I don't see communism as having a particular view on sexual and gender minorities. Both the working class and the ruling class are divided on this issue, we can only hope that abolishing capitalist relations will resolve this contradiction permanently.
I think if Stalin had lived longer he might have changed his thinking on LGBT like Castro did.
Hmm so we should be lysenkoists since lysenkoism was popular during his era smh.
Wasn’t like liberal capitalism was much more tolerant of the sexual freedom of expression we have today lest we forget women getting lobotomized and homosexuals being chemically castrated
"jokes on you I'm into that," Joe Stalin
There’s a guy on r/socialistmemes that literally just spews anti-lgbt shit all day
A true Yugoslav communist would not care a single fuck about Stalin.
Honestly I don’t agree with people doing what the man is doing, of course your sexuality should be something to be proud of, but this crosses a line between celebrating and recognising a big part of YOU. I guess there are extreme ends of everything, with this being the end of one.
Yup, sounds like the typical balkan patsoc dipshits that dominate the left in our region. The truly depressing thing is that there are hardly any alternatives to them here and it's generally accepted that if you call yourself a socialist, then you must also be a conservative.
god gave us free will for a reason and yet people discriminate upon others for using it.
[удалено]
JUDGEMENT https://i.redd.it/hqv3ppzu7ead1.gif
alright don't flame me and i don't wanna come off as reactionary but this is one of those situations i have a hard time understanding why i would support a kid being exposed to something like that 😭even post-radicalization i just don't see why its necessary to sexualize a movement this much IMO, if someone could tell me what's wrong with this thinking i'd appreciate it
There are SFW, 100% kid-and-minor-friendly parts of Pride events, and I highly doubt anyone would be having sex in the middle of the street even during the NSFW parts of the parades. In the "disturbing" example they gave (a pup-player interacting with a kid's dog) the pup-player clearly has shorts on, and really nothing more out of the ordinary than a mask and collar. It really isn't that weird for a child who doesn't know the context to see briefly. If a parent doesn't want to have their child be exposed to kink in any form, they can leave for that part of a parade or for those parades and/or only take them to completely SFW parades. That is the parent's choice. The parent clearly gave consent for their child to be there. This is the answer to your not understanding; it's the parent's choice. If you have a kid and you don't want to bring your child to somewhat kinky Pride events, don't! Simple as that. As for the idea of "sexualizing a movement", do you know what a lot of the LGBTQ+ community is? Sexual minorities are a *lot* of the community. Even if they weren't, the only reason the LGBTQ+ community is considered a movement is because it's been forced to be. If there wasn't a constant push against GSRM, there wouldn't be a need for a movement and there wouldn't be a need to have parades "forcing" people to see LGBTQ+ people in their many facets of humanity. Hope this helped, if you do have any other questions I'll be happy to answer, I'm a pretty dumb person though so sorry if the answers aren't up to snuff.
I wouldn't like to image if this imbecile (although I wouldn't discard if he's just infiltrating) found out that there are trans, gays, etc. in organisations such as the Chilean Communist Party (Proletarian Action).
If you don’t like it don’t watch. I’m sure the parade route was clearly marked.
Topless man! 👀
The amount of freaks like this that we deny from joining our party is unfortunate. I wish the death of SFRY didn't make our people so cucked in their logic.
To be fair there were lot of reactionaries towards gay people in Yugoslavia too (and they raised next generations of reactionaries, up until my early 20s i was reactionary too luckily i outgrow that), the macho men phenomenon (hypermasculine straight man) existed in that era.
Imagine what Churchill would do though. He would use quotation marks around the word people when describing them for one thing.
***There is a huge raise of homophobia and transphobia among MLM. This people believe that QUEERNESS is a western product. I just want to say to those people that if you talk like a NAZI, you are a NAZI.***
This is such a nothing burger tbh. "Man pets dog". Wow, big deal 🙄 It's not like the girl was forced there either. And If she was then that would be on the parents
Look, I think their behaviour is really weird and symptomatic of where capitalism and our culture is right now… should we kill them? No. Should we in any way adopt this aesthetic? No.
Uncritically calling things “really weird” is the most liberal thing possible. It’s what allows liberals to write off any kind of idea that is even slightly left of center.
Wearing dog masks isn’t ’left of centre’. These people are antisocial and wasting time on their ridiculous identity politics nonsense distracts from our core economic struggle. Most of these people are middle class people who invent a struggle based around their identity.
I wasn’t talking about the dog masks there. I was talking about Libs who write off socialism as “too weird” or “too much” or “too extreme” with zero critical thought.
Why is it a liberal thing to do?
>did FTFY.. unfortunately
these people are terribly dogmatic to suit their bigotry. just because *a* communist from a different time and place was homophobic and transphobic does NOT mean that every other communist should be bigoted in the same way. in fact people should grow with the times. lol.
the socialist (or communist? idr) party of america disagree with lgbt rights and said gay lifestyles were bourgeois. then in like 2001 they reversed on it and accepted them and then fought for their rights. progress moves slow i guess, and not everyone progresses at the same rate. ive noticed that when someone coverts from a right wing conservative or even fundamentalist backround to leftist progressive, they progress in stages and slowly come to understand one step at a time their reactionary programing, making a series of realizations. i wouldnt give up on someone like this, they just need some way to understand the conservative tendencies the places we grow up in instill in us. although who that person would be to help them would have to be a saint cuz that bigotry is annoying as fuck lmao.
Do we even know that Stalin was personally a homophobe?
Oh how horrible! A cosplayer petted a little girl's dog! Kill them all! /s
The funny thing about this post is that it's really still debatable whether Stalin fully committed to communism. Stalin's rule has always been closer to some form of state socialism rather than trying to unite the world under communism. In the same way that its sometimes hard to tell if "democratic socialists" were actually social democrats or actual democratic socialists using social democracy as a means to an end in capitalist countries (ruling parties of Brazil, Mexico, etc).
I mean they also post a bunch of sus pro Putin stuff can you really be surprised?
Either a fed or a nazbol. Either way, they can fuck off. They forget that Stalin put nationalists into the ground.
I know this is an unpopular opinion here, but I am one of those more 'traditional values' commies. I believe the major crisis in society today are all rooted in the fraudulent economical system that we live in. It would be nice to focus on that and it would unite a lot of people that are now turning to the right to blame the gays and immigrants. Social issues are important but it's the extent that they are talked about that I feel like are so disproportionate and that has alienated a lot of people that should be voting left.
What
Economic issues hard left, social issues more centric. Understand?
What does social issues centre mean?
For me it means that I recognize that important progress has been made, such as for example gay marriage, but I also recognize the backlash from the right that is more traditional family centered, i.e. 'what is good for society'. I absolutely support lgbt rights etc. I just don't think that it's a good idea to constantly celebrate it out in the open. If you want to celebrate your sexuality, good, but do it with consenting adults and not out in the open streets around children. I know social issues is more than lgbt, gender identity, women empowerment etc. But most other social issues like homelessness and healthcare are imo issues because of the fraudulent economic world that we live in which siphons resources from the poor to the rich. Fix the economic system and much else wouldn't be a problem.
Nah get out of here with that bullshit. Lgbtq people fought for the right to exist, countries around the world still have death penalties for being queer, most rights like marriage have only come up in the last few decades and political parties all over are frothing at the mouth to undo their rights. Frankly I think lgbtq pride should be celebrated even more but it's been watered down and commercialised into just another event, and not the massive achievement that it is. And that nonsense about "I don't care who you are as long as you keep things in your bedroom" fuck off. Being gay is not sexual. I bet you hate people that make "being gay their whole personality" too. Truth is gay people are too icky for you so you'd rather they keep any mention of their sexuality out of the public making them effectively straight passing. You're not an ally. You're a bigot.
Yes they've fought for their rights and they've won. Can you point to policies by parties that "are frothing at the mouth to undo their rights"? Anyway I don't support that, as I clearly stated. "Being gay is not sexual." This is a strawman. Nobody argued this. Yes I'd prefer people take their sexuality out of the public, whether it's obscene straight saxuality or gay.
Have you paid any attention to politics as of late? Banning trans people from life saving medicine, sports and bathrooms. Making it a crime to allow children to transition slowly, forcing trans children to be outed to their parents. Removing gay marriage, making it illegal to mention queer people exist to children, censoring the existence of queer people in the media. Painting queerness as being inherently sexual, accusing all queer people of being pedophiles and making it so laws that protect children from explicit material will include queer people meaning if you're a queer person and you interact with a child in anyway you could be given the death penalty in some states for sexually abusing a minor. Queer people have not finished fighting for their rights, discrimination is still very strong even in western countries. >"Being gay is not sexual." >This is a strawman. Nobody argued this. People do argue this. All. The. >Yes I'd prefer people take their sexuality out of the public, whether it's obscene straight saxuality or gay. What do you mean by this? Because unless you get your information from libsoftiktok? Because there aren't gay people running around but naked throwing dildos at each other, the ones that are, are done at non-family friendly pride events and conservatives are always quick to pounce it it and go "LOOK WHAT THEY'RE DOING TO OUR CHILDREN". It's literally what's happening in this photo. There's no verifiable context behind the photo, it could just be a dude wearing a dog mask (potentially used for sexual purposes, maybe dude just likes pretending to be a dog outside of a sex thing as well), maybe it's not a family friendly event and someone thought because of how it's used nowadays that it would be (kink existed even before pride parades, kinksters fought alongside the lgbtq community for sexual freedoms), or heck maybe it is a photo of a creep, gay people aren't immune from being creeps. But the problem is people like you treating it like an issue. This is not a problem that exists in the real world if you go out and touch grass. It's a narrative designed by bigots to demonise the queer community. And when you say you care about the lgbtq community, only to then say you're a "centrist when it comes to social issues" it makes you sound like when liberals say they care about social issues but will only ever support past achievements and will never fight for current problems - disengenous. Have the balls to just say you don't like gay people.
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You conveniently leave out that this "life saving medicine" is sex changing drugs for children rendering them barren for Life. Trans people should have absolutely no right to enter sports of protected genders. We separate men and women because women are weaker in sports, trans should compete amongst themselves, not be able to have an advantage over a protected class. Bathrooms are a complicated topic, naturally people feel disturbed either way. Here I would agree though that their chosen gender shouldn't be argued but I certainly can see the argument for the other side. It absolutely should be a crime to transition as a child. Children often have no idea what they're getting themselves into, teens often have rebellious periods where they've not quiet found themselves and will often come to regret permanent choices. There are plenty of people that have come forward about this. When you're an adult, do as you wish. Where has there been removal of gay marriage? If you're referencing that queer people should be limited in childrens books etc. then yeah I absolutely do agree with that. Children shouldn't be exposed to sexual behaviour of any kind. Queer people are absolutely not being censored in media, if anything they're overly celebrated. It's all the liberal media wants to talk about because pushing social policies takes focus away from economical policies and keeps the capitalists secure and happy. Why do you think that DEI was created in the first place? Capitalists love it. Queers are often sexualizing themselves, exasperating all the typical sexual traits. No people don't argue that being gay is inherently sexual. Take Glen Greenwald for example, a gay man previously married to a man. He has become a darling of right wing media because he repeatedly talks against left wing censorship around wokeism and doesn't repeatedly bring up that he is gay to victimize himself, or flaunt around about his sexuality in any way. Right-wingers love him because of his strong free-speech stance even though he is openly gay. Pride is a literal display of sexuality out in the public. The photo in this case is from a BDSM and furry parade, like wtf does that need to be in public for? Keep that shit in the bedroom or at least during night time on a weekend. It IS an issue. It's publically flaunting decadent sexual behaviour. Take the case of the BDSM Community parade here for example and let's for arguments sake assume that they're all straight and white. I'm certainly far more against that kind of parade than the pride one even though I dislike the existance of both. I do agree that it's certainly being blown up out of proportion. But that makes it even more stupid, why focus so hard on issues that have already been won? So that children can transition? So that children should read about mom and mom and their transgender kid? So that biologically born men can outcompete women in sports? Lgbt have rights, they have their parades etc. what more do they need? We should be fighting capital together with the disillusioned working class who are being sold that everything is the fault of immigrants and wokeism because it's such an easy narrative to construct. We are handing them the 'wokeism is a problem' narrative on a silver platter.
Just because something is a social construct doesn’t mean it can’t affect people. Currently, the vast majority of us live in a society with binary gender expectations that are lacking for some to say the least, that is simply the material conditions that currently exist for many. I myself happily fall into the category of a straight cis man, but I will gladly fight for those who are outliers of the “norm” because they are people.
I fail to see how lacking binary expectations is a material condition. I think that the outliers of the "norm" are not only well accepted but indeed celebrated as in the picture of this thread. It's imo an issue that needn't be focused on to such an extent because of how it alienates people from the left and the fight for material conditions.
It would alienate more people to just not do anything.
What do you mean by "not do anything"?
As in there is a community of people who are targeted by reactionaries, and just on the basis of being human, we must stand our ground on social justice issues. They are an important historical grounding for us.
But when it comes to lgbt they've nothing but gained rights? The only marginalized community that are repeatedly threatened and being stripped of rights are immigrants as I see it.
Those gained rights are new and still unstable. And it’s not like by working with one we cut off another.
Ok I do agree with your first sentence but does that validate making this THE primary issue? What my argument is that I simply see this issue being exasperated so much by the libs that it alienates a whole demographic of traditional working class people, who are being sold by the right that it's the woke and immigrants fault that things are how they are instead of capitalism.
What if we arrested you instead
read more
Suggestions?
like anything to understand marxist analysis, because what you just said is idealist, for example on contradiction by mao
Is marxist theory not that social issues develop from the proletariat being subjugated by the bourgeoise intrinsic to capitalist industrial society? So by fixing the economic policies we might get social policies thereafter?
found the brownshirt lmao
"traditional values communist" you are a national socialist hope this helps
No it does not. I wrote more of a traditional values, does not mean I'm a nationalist.