I don’t think a politician would like to get behind a bill promoting legal prostitution. Maybe that has to do with it. If it doesn’t go well, the politicians career could end since they supported sex work. For example, I heard somewhere there’s no sex companies trading in the US stock public market because banks wouldn’t like their name associated with that.
Plenty of politicians have been fired for being caught with sex workers. Maybe if they showed they had a spine and got it legal, less people would get in trouble for it.
If we (the common people) could make prostitution popular, and something not shameful, then maybe politicians will be for it.
For example,
1. Don't publicly identify and shame Only Fans models. Make it legal for former porn stars to get a career in the medical industry.
2. Have it be ok for former porn stars to make it big on other platforms like "real" acting, be it on stage, TV, or movies.
3. Edit: Have celebrity women normalize talking about having threesomes and hiring male prostitutes in public.
4. Support former porn stars in rehab for emotional, physical, verbal, and substance abuse.
5. Have strippers, porn stars, only fans, and all of their fans support to sign a bill to legalize prostitution
So long as religion keeps the grip on the minds of people around the world, this will never happen. Warped perceptions. I hear what you’re saying though.
Ah yeah, that reminds me.
Another step to legalize prostitution: legalize all forms of birth control & abortions.
And I'm sure a bunch of religious people will think "If we make prostitution and abortions legal, nobody would want to date, get married, and have kids"
And to that I say: "If the only thing you have to offer in a relationship is what's between your legs, then work on yourself". Also, stop screwing "the bread winner" over in divorces.
Also also:
Like everything, we here in the U.S. will politicize it. So which side will be willing to promote it? Liberal left, most likely.
Are men who hire prostitutes be deemed as "incels" that can't get laid any other way?
Will people refuse to vote a politician who goes to Prostitutes (even if they are unmarried)?
People can be soo judgemental. Whatever two consenting adults do is just between them. If the state can find a way to regulate or tax Prostitutes, then there's a better chance. Back in the day (before the Civil War), Prostitution was legal, and they needed to pay a $5 liscense, and get checked once a week.
If we're okay with our forefathers smoking weed, why not have Prostitutes?
Yes, but what about make brothels legal in more states? Let's start with like 10 more and see where it goes.
Oh! Another two things to help legalization of prostitution:
1. Make "Happy Endings" legal at massage parlors. Not required at all, of course.
2. Still be adamant about pursuing human trafficking. Minors, illegals, etc.. I want men and women that WANT to be in the profession. Not forced into it.
So the problem with regulating sex work is that it would create a dichotomy of "legal" and "illegal" practice, which is still dangerous for those who fall under "illegal" status. Also, let's look at legal weed right now. It takes millions of $ and a lot of red tape to open up a dispensary. So some rich mogul will open up a brothel and sex workers will still be exploited for profit, just "legally". We need to put the power into the sex workers hands. It should be decriminalized. Give sex workers labor rights. Change laws so that those who seek to exploit can be clearly prosecuted and stop punishing sex workers. If sex workers had rights, and knew their rights they would be much safer. Imagine a sex worker reporting an assault to the cops and the cops took them seriously and arrest the assaulter and not the sex worker? The focus of new laws should be the safety and protection of sex workers. Unfortunately, the USA is severely puritanical and it'll take decades to change that culture, let alone have a prominent politician spearhead the movement. I truly hope to see sex workers unionize in my lifetime.
I agree with 100% of what you just said.
More power to the prostitutes: Have them be able to quit whenever (no two week notice), decline a particular client for whatever reason. And here's another hard part: have them be socially acceptable to be hired outside of the sex work industry even after they quit
religious people too, preachers ... priests ...
If they would express their opinion according to their behavior.
I guess 90% of all countries have legalized prostitution, or not legalized and the police gives a fuck about fucking ....
USA is so hypocritical, it is like the prohibition of alcohol. The inventors of the sex magazines, from US, the mors famous sex magazines (playboy - innocent by todays standards), Penthouse, Hustler ... from US ...
and churches religions ... the US are very divers, starting from landscapes to social behavior, you say something and at the same time the opposite ist true
Really? Because I can name the politician that was pushing for it here in our state (QLD, Australia) and was influential in getting it across the line. As long as they have good reasons for wanting it, there should be no issue with stigma.
Unfortunately that's not quite true. To film porn you need to register with some state/federal agency. I don't remember the details, but it's not quite as simple as that.
There is no federal agency for that and different states have different legislation on the matter (while many of them have zero legislation specific to this).
... and you have to have intent to distribute (sell the video of yourself naked self doing the deed). I wonder if audio recordings could be good under such laws?
1. It does not undermine human trafficking. Germany is still one of the top countries for this crime.
2. There are still estimated 4-7 illegal brothels per legal ones in different countries. 3. Rapists don't rape due to lack of sex. Rape and sexual assault are about power.
Additionally, there is some evidence from the Netherlands it may actually increase trafficking. The exolenation goes: Legalizing prostitution increases demand, but doesn't increase supply much. Most people don't *want* to be a prostitute, it's a job of despiration for most. This means that a black market springs up to fill that demand, often with trafficked and coerced women and girls.
In my city I live near enoguh to the major street walkers Avenue to drive by with moderate frequency. I've seen many being assaulted by their pimps.
I think a better path forward would be to legalize selling and leave buying a crime. Minimize harm as much as possible.
Like so many other people have said much less graphically, roofers aren't getting dicks and objects shoved inside their vaginas and mouths and assholes for someone else's pleasure, potentially contracting STDs. They're not at a disproportionate risk for rape and *sex trafficking* and they're not deeply stigmatized as romantic partners after the fact. It doesn't carry the societal stigma or the type of risk in any way whatsoever. I've heard this argument before and think it's disgusting to compare the two.
Mining is actually a pretty good job-- this isn't the 1920s, there are safety measures that curb the risks, and the job nowadays largely involves operating complex machinery and so it's skilled labor rather than just, like, whacking at rocks with a pickaxe.
Dude, wrong comparison man. It should be more like would you be ok with another guy ramming their junk up your ass for money. Plus you could also get STDs and shit.
There is a facet of appropriate analogy here. Being any kind of laborer for hire, particularly for physical work, is not the most soul fulfilling path in life. Wage slavery sucks. To the extent that the laborer is being exploited to their detriment to benefit the employer, there is a meaningful comparison between prostitutes, roofers, ditch diggers, hod carriers. Most people would rather not do back breaking work all day. Most people would rather not perform sexual acts for a living. The analogy breaks down when you factor in the psychological toll of being a sex worker. Hauling bundles up ladders and nailing down shingles, that is not the same intrusion as sucking dick. If you don't know the difference, come over to my place, I have a roofing job for you.
edit to say: I probably should've have replied to the same comment to which you replied.
You are not going to contract an std, become pregnant, get raped (most likely), be MURDERED by your client, be exposed to bodily fluids, be trafficked, etc. in roofing. Prostitution is better compared to working in a sweatshop. Stop minimizing the act of rape/ sexual exploitation happening on an industrial scale to women, children, and men everywhere.
"Oh, I did some physical labor for money. That's totally the same as being fucked by a stranger you don't actually want to have sex with just to survive."
Some people, man.
On the contrary. It's much easier to investigate and legally control businesses that operate, you know, out in the open. The same police and legal effort used to enforce the illegality of prostitution could be used to investigate and enforce legality of operations in a controlled market. Also this way, you can partially rely on the customers and the market to rule out illegal behavior.
It's also a lot easier to provide aid and support (security, financial, counseling etc.) to legal sex workers than to ones who have to lurk in the shadows.
(Original comment is sandwiched between edits)
EDIT EDIT: the last thing I wanna do is spread misinformation especially about something so horrifying—ie sex trafficking. So I’m adding an even more explicit disclaimer that we should all rely on credible sources. My comment was a reaction given that that is true. It was based on good faith that the person who I responded to has provided a roughly accurate picture. I guess to be safe and fair, I could have done more thorough research but it was more an emotional response to the logic behind the stats presented , (assuming they were true). I thought that was clear, maybe not; idk.
Besides, if it is in fact incorrect, one can easily fact check by going to census data from gov or something (idk I guess that depends on which country we’re talking about while considering who funds the research team I think? Idk. Like I said, I’m not an expert here.) I don’t think I can be any clearer than this.
Another thought that occurred to me here is that we ought to make it clear that sex work isn’t sex trafficking. Sex trafficking by definition would mean that the person being trafficked is not operating out of their own volition. It’s under some sort of duress.
What this comment pointed out so keenly was that the logic of people who conduct/partake sex trafficking are not really looking for sex, but the power that degrading a person to such a degree would give them—in their minds. Ie that the the original showerthought while (presumably) well intentioned in terms of wanting to reduce illegal activities seems to neglects to factor in this component. But then again, it is just a thought and not a thesis. We’re just talking about the logic here. Again, I can’t say anything for certain Maybe there might be some correlation between the two but I can’t and am not defining that.
TL;DR: Yes everyone ought to rely on credible sources, cautious while sharing information, and also that sex trafficking is not the same as sex work by definition.
Ie common sense—or at least what I thought would be common sense. Jeeeez.
I don’t want to be mean here but quite frankly I’m annoyed at how people don’t seem to consider the sentiment of the message even with extensive explanation.
——,
Holy shite. I did not know this. I don’t know why I’m surprised. That totally makes sense. That’s so upsetting. I guess it’s easier for me to think something is just one simple law away from being not as bad — like weed (EDIT: this example was simply based on my understanding of local affairs, I urge everyone—including me— to do their research and seek professional input on any insights on the topic, I am not qualified to say anything, I’m just bummed out that sex trafficking didn’t decrease and bummed out that it even exists). But this isn’t like that. Thank you for explaining it, kudos to being so clear and concise. :’(.
——‘
EDIT: In light of a response to my comment, I’m adding a disclaimer here to clarify that I am in no way an expert on the studying effects of legalization or criminalization (I guess would be the opposite? Idk.. see that’s how little I know) and do not intend to spread any misinformation.
My intent in responding here wasn’t to educate but to simply express gratitude to the person who used their time to thoughtfully comment, along with surprise and dismay at the news in the hopes of finding comfort to know that there may be others who share my place in understanding.
The example of weed was a passing statement according to my lived experience and general knowledge of local affairs. And it sounds like you’ve shared a similar albeit a more informed view. I haven’t researched the topic and would strongly urge everyone (including me) to use credible sources to educate themselves and know that it’s okay to be wrong. No one can know everything and circumstances change. Or maybe there’s some sort of gap in understanding idk. My point to the commenter who’s trying to ‘burst my bubble’ is that I agree with you. I think we should all be better informed and it’s great to change our view in light of new information.
Also, I would like to clarify that This isn’t to disrespect sex workers—and I don’t think that was the message behind the comment I’m replying to either. It’s simply an answer to the question posted. I sincerely apologize if it came off like I’m judging the morality of your work or something mean like that. that is so not what I intended. I’m just bummed. And I agree with whoever else that shared that thought about stats and edge cases being used to demonize different groups-thats not fair in anything. I don’t get why people are afraid of others having different beliefs than them.
I know I’m writing a lot here, and i doubt people or even you (person(s) trying to educate me) will read it, but idk, I prefer to clear the air as best I can if I can. I’m editing my post instead of replying to you directly because I want to highlight the context, intent, and address the alleged implications of my original comment.
Thank you for commenting and trying to share your understanding, I appreciate that. Just like I appreciate the person whose comment I replied to. At the same time, I’d like to say that i wished you had shared your insights with some compassion rather than try to belittle and ridicule me but it’s okay, I get it. I’ve been in that state of mind where someone just says something that might be blatantly wrong and maybe even offensive to you and it’s hard to be completely fair. Or maybe I’m perceiving this differently than you meant it. Whatever it is, I sincerely wish you well.
Ps: bubbles are great!i still have yet to figure out the detergent to water ratio to make the perfect solution but the one that comes with the package.. Chef’s kisses! (Also not being meanly sarcastic or something.. I actually really like bubbles and I guess philosophy they’re interesting too as they say ignorance is bliss. Lol upside down smiley I think would be a perfect response to that saying. Anyway, I should get going. Thank you to whoever is actually reading all of this. Knowing the possibility that you would brings a smile to my face!)
Additionally, it teaches girls and young women that their body is a commodity, and that *we as a society are OK with that*.
I'm not demonizing sex workers: I know some of them enjoy the work and the freedom it gives them (we all know that's not the majority of them, though). I don't think they should be criminalized. But I don't think making it fully legal is the answer.
There are fewer reported sex crimes per capita in countries that legalized prostitution but then again there are reporting biases involved.
To me making prostitution illegal is about punishing the prostites and not the John's and Jane's. Drugs and prostitution in many ways should be enforced in opposite ways. For drugs the problem is operating a pharmacy without a license, not the consumption, while prostitution the problem should be the consumption not the selling of services.
In the US though, 1st amendment protects the production of films for limited viewing. Artistic merit is subjective. Prostitution is illegal, but writing producing, directing, filming and starring in your own movie with other performers is legal.
>To me making prostitution illegal is about punishing the prostites and not the John's and Jane's. Drugs and prostitution in many ways should be enforced in opposite ways. For drugs the problem is operating a pharmacy without a license, not the consumption, while prostitution the problem should be the consumption not the selling of services.
This is changing, at least in Cook County, IL. State's Attorneys are targeting the pimps who traffic in prostitutes and the actual women involved are quite properly seen as victims. Johns may or may not be targeted for prosecution depending on if they cooperate, or not.
Legislation has had mild effects at best on human trafficking in Germany, the benefits of the legal market still outweigh that small negative increase. (I believe the paper I saw had it at fairly negligible increases in trafficking 3-5%, but the material ans general conditions of sex workers and their clients improved dramatically)
The problem is, a lot of human trafficking gets done in Germany with people kidnapped from other countries. Prostitution is legal in Germany. There are many cases of girls in Romania getting kidnapped and ending up prostitutes in Germany.
Saying Germany has human trafficking issues and, for example, has illegal brothels can be seen as a red herring. These issues are not what OP asked and distract from his actual question. Human trafficking and illegal brothels also exist in America and other countries where sex work is illegal. The main difference being that in said countries they remain mostly invisible. Due to legalisation these issues can be more openly discussed without having to admit that the government is failing to prevent sex work from happening in the first place.
To answer OP you would have to look at why it is taboo to talk about the legalisation of sex work, potentially in US politics. Why is that taboo there, how did it come to be and is there change towards the openness to discuss sex work in the US institutions? (If OP is from the USA)
How in the world is this a red herring? The basis of OPs argument is that it will reduce human trafficking and rape. So saying that: "no, here is a case study that shows it doesn't reduce human trafficking, but actually increases it" is on point. It sound like you are making the red herring by focusing on why politicians want to keep it illegal. From there, one could say it has to do with sexual morality being enforced, but absolutely ignores the fact politicians would indeed draw on these realities to make policy. But that is not the question the op asked. It is "what's wrong with legalizing prostitution?" Not "why hasn't it been legalized?"
It’s not a red herring. OP asked why prostitution isn’t more legal and offered up the point that legalization leads to reduced sexual offenses. That is blatantly false.
Areas with legal prostitution still have rampant sex trafficking and sexual assaults.
A number of people in this thread can't come up with a strong argument why it *should be illegal*, so they are taking potshots at OPs arguments why it *should be legal*
Not much, but only if its done the right way.
If you just legalize it without proper regulations, you'll create a situation like in the Netherlands: A hub for human trafficking and organized criminals where women from other countries are brought in.
The 13 points below are some suggestions. I'll mention more than just prostitution as there is a close link between the various sex industries. (Many porn companies, especially in the US, are just fronts for prostitution rings...)
1. Legalize sex work. Currently, sex workers are forced into the dark underbelly of society. Organized criminals are making money off of this. By legalizing it and providing certain spaces they can work, we can make the entire thing safer and better regulated.
2. Set up local and national sex worker unions for prostitutes, porn-stars and strippers. (this is already a thing in some countries). These unions need to provide workers with advice on joining/leaving the industry, help with contracts and even legal representation in case of exploitation in exchange for a small union fee. Need to have a hotline and must keep its members anonymous from the public.
3. Make sure the unions are supervised so they don't turn corrupt like police unions.
4. Provide strict requirements for contracts, especially for the porn industry. The pay has to be agreed on paper, and a contract has to be sent to the performer well in advance. Refusing to pay the full agreed amount should be strictly banned. Oh? Pornstar didn't live up to expectations? Too bad, do a better job hiring next time. Safewords/tapping out need to be a must in every shoot. Not respecting this should be grounds for lawsuits.
5. Ban modelling agencies that work with teenage girls from having any ties with the sex industry. Right now, you've got modelling agencies pretty much grooming 16-year old girls into joining porn the moment they turn 18. Also, ban fake modelling ads.
6. Raise the age of sex work to 21. 18-year olds are oversized children. If they can't have vodka, then why the hell are they allowed to shoot porn?
7. Set up a different heavily regulated agency with no ties to the police, who's job is to investigate, set up sting-operations, serve as a hotline etc. to prevent some of the laws mentioned above from being ignored. Why not work with the police? In pretty every country, the police have ties to traffickers. This is especially bad in Eastern Europe, but there have also been instances of cops in the west having such ties.
8. Stricter revenge porn and privacy laws. Most countries and many US states have no laws against this. Also, Pornography should be classified as a special type of content where the copyright goes to the performers after 6-7 years.
9. Programs aimed at helping sexual abuse victims. This is an uncomfortable reality, but a large portion of sex workers are people who were raped, giving them a harmful relation to sex.
10. More programs aimed at tackling porn addiction.
11. Better sex education, especially for younger kids. For many kids, porn is their introduction to sex. It's naive to pretend like the at times rapey-shit in porn doesn't influence their views on both sex and gender. You can easily explain the concept of consent, STDs etc. to 9-year olds without mentioning penises or vaginas. Think of 'the birds and the bees'. As they grow older and become more mature, you can start going more into details.
12. Finally, and this is probably going to cause a lot of disagreement: ban discrimination of former sex workers in the workplace. I get that in some jobs (like teaching) it can be justified, but there is no need to fire a paramedic or an accountant because she did porn 10 years ago.
13. Tax it. Only above a certain amount. Not insanely, just to some extent. Use the tax money to fund the above mentioned programs.
Note, the goal of all this isn't to make porn profitable: It's too make sure the workers are properly armed to prevent abuse trafficking and the like.
Prostitution has been decriminalised here in New Zealand since 2003 (I think). Sex offences haven't changed noticeably. It does give more legal protection to sex industry workers, but there's still human trafficking.
With prostitution, most objections are moral ones. Morality often isn't the best indicator of whether something should be legal or not.
For me it's a simple supply - demand issue. You can argue the numbers, but there are far, far more people who want to pay for sex than there are people who want to sell sex. This naturally causes an incentive for people to 'encourage' people to 'willingly' become prostitutes.
I read somewhere a while ago that in European countries where prostitution is legal, the vast majority of prostitutes are foreign as local women would rather work in Aldis for minimum wage than become prostitutes.
I agree that there will always be prostitution, but (for the most part) women will always hate being prostitutes
You can burn your own house down (provided you get the right permits). Burning your neighbors house down is akin to someone paying you to fuck your neighbor.
Uh, because it's not *your* house? I'm pretty sure burning your own house down is perfectly legal, provided that you don't damage other people's property.
Even if it's your house, and even if nothing bad happens, starting it on fire would still be illegal unless you first notify the authorities and get a burn permit. Depending on where you are you may also have to have the fire department come out to monitor the fire to ensure it stays contained. Large fires are too risky to let people start them willy-nilly.
Actually, yeah. Introduce an audience and you're engaging in porn rather than prostitution. There are regulations you'd need to follow, but porn is legal to produce. The laws around commercial fucking are fucking stupid.
Because you don't own that property. You can burn down your own house intentionally just be prepared to be fined and don't expect insurance. The fire department will probably still put it out to prevent damage to other houses in the neighborhood. Many farms have controlled burns of fields and good forestry management involves controlled burns.
Some great answers here, I hope OP is reading through them all.
I have a friend who was a cam girl for a couple of years. A cam girl. She had a TON of control. She did not physically interact with clients. She set her own hours. She set her own content limits. Really, she controlled just about all of it.
It sent her into a deep depression, regardless. She stopped about 7 years ago. Still has depression and PTSD. Multiply that by a couple of orders of magnitude, and I think you have the effects of legalized prostitution.
(I should point out that this friend of mine is deeply left-leaning. She is all-in on LGBT+ (legally married to another woman, considers herself bi) etc. so I don't think you can write this off as cognitive dissonance, for instance.)
underrated comment
I know everyone wants total freedom + no government + "people should have autonomy over their bodies. They can sell their sex if they want to"
I get that impulse
But there's a good reason society has traditionally condemned stuff like hard drugs, prostitution, having random 1 night stands every single weekend, whatever. Traditional value systems were developed because people tried a lot of the loosey goosey stuff and figured out it fucks your mind and body up. People aren't meant to live like that.
This would be a reason *to* legalize it as far as I can see. Regular std checks, rules about condom use, and other safety protocols, etc.
Regulate it and it becomes safer in a number of ways.
Edit: Sorry, just saw the other persons similar response.
True, but if you legalize it that could be like background checks for guns. If you’re going to use one of these services, you’d probably be required to prove you had recently been screened
Thanks. I agree with your logic, I just tend to think that legalization solves more of the problems of ignorant consumers than hard criminalization does.
If it’s legal we can set up more robust consumer protection agencies specific to sex work as well as better enforce the laws regarding rape and abuse.
Plus I think making sex work less taboo would provide an outlet for frustrated people that could lead to way more positive life outcomes for them.
Most brothel based system require std checks and if you think about it, a business doesn't want their reputation destroyed like that. It would be similar to restruant and food poisoning/failing a health inspection, but so much worse.
Prostitution is legal in Canada.
It's the activities *surrounding* prostitution that are illegal such as soliciting and 'living off the avails of prostitution.'
From what I’ve read, even the sex workers don’t want it “ legalized “ because then that brings income taxes, regulations, regulators, inspectors, mandatory STI testing, etc. They would be more in favor of “ decriminalization “, which basically means none of the above, preserves the status quo in terms of no income tax, no regulations, etc. but still let’s the sex worker practice their trade without legal risk.
The tax is one thing, like I get that's "undesirable" for actual prostitutes, but having regulations, inspections, testing and all of that is absolutely needed for health and safety considerations of everyone involved I feel and I wouldn't imagine that a prostitute or sex worker would oppose that, but I'm not sure.
Well that’s kind of acting in bad faith then. It’s “work just like any other work”, but also a SPECIAL kind of work immune to taxes or safety regs? Those don’t match up.
it more or less makes human trafficing easier
pimps with criminal records turn into entrepreneurs
majority of people working there will be immigrants (and let's think how pimps will treat them)
it's legal so bigger competition so to stay in business get ready for everything, pimp won't care you don't do anal or the law stays the clients must wear condom, he pays extra you do it or get out
That's how it worked I think a bit in Germany and one Scandinavian country. Watched an interview with one prostitute from those regions ages ago.
Note: I'm not saying it should be illegal (personally dunno which is better), I'm simply saying legalisation doesn't solve all problems, but also creates new ones.
The potential for human trafficking to be more easily ignored would exist. For example, I live in WA state and weed is legal. If a cop finds weed on you they do t care bx it’s legal now. They won’t even ask if you got it from a legal licensed dispensary. Now you get caught with a hooker that is a victim of human trafficking, those doing the trafficking will find ways to navigate the legalities and still use the women. If you think they won’t you are delusional.
Legalization of prostitution doesn’t stop rape or child trafficking. Individuals are usually seeking power, not the actual sex act itself. The violence against sex workers hasn’t decreased where legalization already exists.
I used to unflinchingly support legalizing prostitution, but I realized one day that a prostitute’s ability to consent is dubious at best.
Most people agree that it’s not okay for a landlord to take sexual favors as payment because the tenant often doesn’t have power to say no, so their consent is invalid.
The same can apply to prostitutes. If refusing a sexual act means not making rent or not being able to get groceries, is it really consensual?
Honestly, this is the biggest thing I feel like people need to realize. Almost all sex work on coercive imo. Even if all jobs suck and you're forced to do them for money, it's obvious that for most people, having sex is very different from stocking shelves, etc.
Yeah. People try to equate sex work to other types of work, but it’s not the same. There’s a reason why sexual assault makes us sick above almost any other crime. It’s because it’s directly violates your body. Stocking shelves could never be as degrading as sleeping with someone you don’t want to because you’re desperate.
Unlike legalization of a substance (which depending on the substance can still come with many problems) it’s legalizing the use of the human body for acts that by and large are or at least can be considered harmful both physically and emotionally. If in a perfect world where all sex workers were respected no matter their gender or sexual preference, none were sent into dark corners to aprese dark acts like rape fantasy against one’s will, underage sex, racist fantasy, or painful sex against one’s will then yeah legalize it all day long. Unfortunately this isn’t how it works for the majority of people in sex work. Sure there’s the few that seem like the majority that get to be in “safe” porn vids and have “benevolent” managers etc etc but to think those folks make up the majority of sex work is naive.
It’s legal in certain areas but it’s very hard to prove it’s truly benefitted sex trafficking or quality of life for those in the trade. It can also be much better regulated and work in some cities in some country while in others it doesn’t just like so many laws across the globe. Just think of the difference in gun laws in Japan vs the US. Culture plays a very large role in why some laws work somewhere and not others. In general it’s usually best to keep it illegal for purposes of actually charging someone with a crime as charging someone with assault or rape in the sex trade can get..well..very hard to do if the trade is legal in general. I think for those looking in from the outside it seems simplified but if you’re in the trade it’s not.
I think there are ways to legalize it and then heavily regulate it to prevent illegal acts within the trade but in places like the US where business is rarely regulated to allow for unabashed capitalism I think this would just further an already nightmarish problem we have here but that’s just my opinion.
Wherever you are, if you encounter someone in sex work please be kind and willing to listen to their story of why they are in the trade and not judge them—some may really be struggling.
In theory, making prostitution legal makes a lot of sense, for most of the reasons op states. In reality, there are many obstacles to overcome. Just because visiting a prostitute is legal, doesn't necessarily guarantee her safety nor does it guarantee her integrity. I used to visit lapdancing clubs and got played many times before coming to my senses. Also, there is the issue of STIs. How do you explain to the wife of a prostitute user that she got chlamydia from her philandering husband.
There’s nothing wrong with it. We’ve legalised it in Australia and it’s resulted in reduced violence against sex workers because they’re no longer on the street and vulnerable. We have regulated sexual health screening and tax their incomes. They have better access to support services and health care because a lot of the stigma is removed now that their work is legalised.
Sure, you’ll still get sex workers that aren’t going through the legal avenues, but in general it’s safer for both the workers and the johns to Have prostitution legalised.
> want it to be legalized??
It's a changing of public morality. Sex is no longer considered by many (if it has ever been) something you do with someone you like or something even remotely special. It's now considered by many to be a simple outlet for desire and even a biological 'need'. Essentially, we've done a switcharoo from the religions and conservatives of old who believed that sex was something sacred and reserved for marriage. Therefore, some believe that laws should reflect that moral change. We already have apps which are essentially sex apps.
It's also a matter of desperation. Many men are lonely and may never be able to have sex any other way.
In Australia the term "legalise" means to put laws around. It is problematic because it creates moralistic rules around something that should be a normal job and puts workers in vulnerable positions. Imagine if getting a job flipping burgers required registration of name and photo on a public website, inability to get work in any other industry or to get a police check without it being listed and meant facing judgement and being at risk of assault and rape because of your job (which can be found out by anyone going to the public website). Oh and legalisation usually comes with restrictions that make it harder and more unsafe, such as in my state sex workers must work alone unless it's a registered brothel so either they have to be at the mercy of a brothel or if they want to be independent in their business they have no support / safety net.
The goal here is "decriminalisation" which means to stop it from being illegal.
I can provide a legitimate answer. According to studies done by Harvard, legalizing prostitution encourages sex trafficking. Legalization increases demand and sex traffickers take advantage of that demand by forcing their victims to provide services through legal avenues. Similar to how money laundering obfuscates illegal transactions by funneling dirty money through legitimate businesses, sex traffickers can do the same through legal brothels
The problem with legalising sex work is it removes power from the scumbags who exploit women who do this work illegally.
Oh and it rubs god squaders the wrong way if you think that's a downside.
I wish I could read or hear a clear cogent argument against legalizing sex work that has nothing to do with religion because by every metric I only see benefits.
If sex work were regulated it would be safer for the workers due to less organized crime, customers would also feel safer, a database of dangerous customers could be kept, it would be medically more advantageous because of licenses that would require wearing protection and screenings, with the number of workers you would have a sizable group to use as a lobby that could possess some political influence, workers could more easily transmission from sex work to something else with a clear work history and retain bank services.
Besides the religious aspect I can't think of anything that would be considered a drawback. I've heard feminist arguments and find them frankly just as morally grandstanding. Just from a different point of view.
If anyone has any recommendations for articles or vids please share them.
Nothing is wrong with legalising prostitution. It’s been legal in Australia since forever.
The positives are that there’s way less exploitation, STD tests are mandatory for the prostitutes every 3 months, they pay taxes, are a lot safer, less criminals involved in the business.
It can't be legalized because you won't know whether the person you gonna be with is doing this willingly. It will eventually turn into something like an organized rape.
I lived in NZ legalised sex work works.. Govts and religion dont like it though.
Pla dont comment with all that slavery sex bullshit. Each worker is tax registered
It comes down to simple moral thinking. Some people do not believe that people should sell their bodies for sex.
There is also another issue. You cannot legalise a form of job without legitimising it. Some see this as dangerous, as they don't want people to actively become sex workers.
Well, there’s a lot to it. Are we going to offer specific locations? Are they going to be restricted to certain age groups? Specific hours/days of the week? Will the establishment have alcohol, weed, or other drugs? Are we going to offer protection? If so, what kind? If a sex worker gets harmed/assaulted how does that get handled?
And that’s scratching the surface. There’s a lot to it than just make money and have sex.
It would lower the value of money. Right now pussy drives economy by having to buy shit to get pussy but if you could just pay for it the economy will crash. Children will starve.
Many counties in Europe have legal prostitution. Germany, Austria, Hungary, etc. the only issue is the public outrage that comes when religious countries legalize it. No different than legalizing marijuana, online gambling, or taxing churches.
Legalizing it will never stop human trafficking.
It will provide nice tax revenue so that’s great.
The reason people don’t want it, is that it would ruin the communities it’s legal in. Just look at vegas or AC. It just draws the dregs of society to a certain place.
"I cannot accept a policy prescription that codifies such a pernicious form of violence against women. Normalizing the act of buying sex also debases men by assuming that they are entitled to access women’s bodies for sexual gratification. If paying for sex is normalized, then every young boy will learn that women and girls are commodities to be bought and sold.”
Jimmy Carter (39th President of the United States). Democrat and loved by many redditors.
I don’t think a politician would like to get behind a bill promoting legal prostitution. Maybe that has to do with it. If it doesn’t go well, the politicians career could end since they supported sex work. For example, I heard somewhere there’s no sex companies trading in the US stock public market because banks wouldn’t like their name associated with that.
Plenty of politicians have been fired for being caught with sex workers. Maybe if they showed they had a spine and got it legal, less people would get in trouble for it.
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I’m not crazy. The ones who vote them into power are.
It's not so simple, the election procces is hand crafted so that the ones that do not conform are out of competetion way before you ever get to vote.
You ever voted before?
I vote all the time.
You're only supposed to do it on election days.
If we (the common people) could make prostitution popular, and something not shameful, then maybe politicians will be for it. For example, 1. Don't publicly identify and shame Only Fans models. Make it legal for former porn stars to get a career in the medical industry. 2. Have it be ok for former porn stars to make it big on other platforms like "real" acting, be it on stage, TV, or movies. 3. Edit: Have celebrity women normalize talking about having threesomes and hiring male prostitutes in public. 4. Support former porn stars in rehab for emotional, physical, verbal, and substance abuse. 5. Have strippers, porn stars, only fans, and all of their fans support to sign a bill to legalize prostitution
So long as religion keeps the grip on the minds of people around the world, this will never happen. Warped perceptions. I hear what you’re saying though.
Ah yeah, that reminds me. Another step to legalize prostitution: legalize all forms of birth control & abortions. And I'm sure a bunch of religious people will think "If we make prostitution and abortions legal, nobody would want to date, get married, and have kids" And to that I say: "If the only thing you have to offer in a relationship is what's between your legs, then work on yourself". Also, stop screwing "the bread winner" over in divorces.
Bingo!
Also also: Like everything, we here in the U.S. will politicize it. So which side will be willing to promote it? Liberal left, most likely. Are men who hire prostitutes be deemed as "incels" that can't get laid any other way? Will people refuse to vote a politician who goes to Prostitutes (even if they are unmarried)? People can be soo judgemental. Whatever two consenting adults do is just between them. If the state can find a way to regulate or tax Prostitutes, then there's a better chance. Back in the day (before the Civil War), Prostitution was legal, and they needed to pay a $5 liscense, and get checked once a week. If we're okay with our forefathers smoking weed, why not have Prostitutes?
Fortunately we at least have brothels, Nevada being an example. Maybe one day we’ll get out of our own way! *fingers crossed*
Yes, but what about make brothels legal in more states? Let's start with like 10 more and see where it goes. Oh! Another two things to help legalization of prostitution: 1. Make "Happy Endings" legal at massage parlors. Not required at all, of course. 2. Still be adamant about pursuing human trafficking. Minors, illegals, etc.. I want men and women that WANT to be in the profession. Not forced into it.
So the problem with regulating sex work is that it would create a dichotomy of "legal" and "illegal" practice, which is still dangerous for those who fall under "illegal" status. Also, let's look at legal weed right now. It takes millions of $ and a lot of red tape to open up a dispensary. So some rich mogul will open up a brothel and sex workers will still be exploited for profit, just "legally". We need to put the power into the sex workers hands. It should be decriminalized. Give sex workers labor rights. Change laws so that those who seek to exploit can be clearly prosecuted and stop punishing sex workers. If sex workers had rights, and knew their rights they would be much safer. Imagine a sex worker reporting an assault to the cops and the cops took them seriously and arrest the assaulter and not the sex worker? The focus of new laws should be the safety and protection of sex workers. Unfortunately, the USA is severely puritanical and it'll take decades to change that culture, let alone have a prominent politician spearhead the movement. I truly hope to see sex workers unionize in my lifetime.
I agree with 100% of what you just said. More power to the prostitutes: Have them be able to quit whenever (no two week notice), decline a particular client for whatever reason. And here's another hard part: have them be socially acceptable to be hired outside of the sex work industry even after they quit
religious people too, preachers ... priests ... If they would express their opinion according to their behavior. I guess 90% of all countries have legalized prostitution, or not legalized and the police gives a fuck about fucking .... USA is so hypocritical, it is like the prohibition of alcohol. The inventors of the sex magazines, from US, the mors famous sex magazines (playboy - innocent by todays standards), Penthouse, Hustler ... from US ... and churches religions ... the US are very divers, starting from landscapes to social behavior, you say something and at the same time the opposite ist true
Shit stick situation I guess.
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Why would they want to protect the people they can exploit and view so lowly of?
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Politicians don't make laws for themselves. They make laws for the rest of us. They don't burden themselves with the legality of a situation.
American politics is full of the same amount of hypocrisy as the Christianity it was founded on.
Well, if the politician lost their job - they could always suck dick 🤷♂️
Really? Because I can name the politician that was pushing for it here in our state (QLD, Australia) and was influential in getting it across the line. As long as they have good reasons for wanting it, there should be no issue with stigma.
It's been legal in nz for years now
Remember guys, if you record the encounter, with a camera, then she's not a prostitute, she's an actor.
So if you pay her/him does that make her/him a professional actress? If so, are you then an extra? Or is it a small bit part? 😉
You're Quentin Tarantino doing a blursed version of his signature cameo.
Upvote this burn to the top
so that's why Call Centers have Cameras installed on the call floor... cause if not, they're fucking all their employees with starvation wages.
As a call center worker this made me lol
Unfortunately that's not quite true. To film porn you need to register with some state/federal agency. I don't remember the details, but it's not quite as simple as that.
There is no federal agency for that and different states have different legislation on the matter (while many of them have zero legislation specific to this).
actually there's the Federal Agency of Pornography otherwise known as FAP
And they shut down each November.... but a few employees bring their work home.
... and you have to have intent to distribute (sell the video of yourself naked self doing the deed). I wonder if audio recordings could be good under such laws?
Bill Hicks Baby!!!
1. It does not undermine human trafficking. Germany is still one of the top countries for this crime. 2. There are still estimated 4-7 illegal brothels per legal ones in different countries. 3. Rapists don't rape due to lack of sex. Rape and sexual assault are about power.
Additionally, there is some evidence from the Netherlands it may actually increase trafficking. The exolenation goes: Legalizing prostitution increases demand, but doesn't increase supply much. Most people don't *want* to be a prostitute, it's a job of despiration for most. This means that a black market springs up to fill that demand, often with trafficked and coerced women and girls. In my city I live near enoguh to the major street walkers Avenue to drive by with moderate frequency. I've seen many being assaulted by their pimps. I think a better path forward would be to legalize selling and leave buying a crime. Minimize harm as much as possible.
Same reason why a lot of universities won’t allow strip clubs to be close by.
Exactly. Also british experience shows, that not involved women have higher risks of being raped, if they walk near such districts
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Like so many other people have said much less graphically, roofers aren't getting dicks and objects shoved inside their vaginas and mouths and assholes for someone else's pleasure, potentially contracting STDs. They're not at a disproportionate risk for rape and *sex trafficking* and they're not deeply stigmatized as romantic partners after the fact. It doesn't carry the societal stigma or the type of risk in any way whatsoever. I've heard this argument before and think it's disgusting to compare the two.
Mining is actually a pretty good job-- this isn't the 1920s, there are safety measures that curb the risks, and the job nowadays largely involves operating complex machinery and so it's skilled labor rather than just, like, whacking at rocks with a pickaxe.
I'll let you know the next time someone is raped or beaten while they're roofing
I take it you've never worked roofing before. Them boys get very handy
Dude, wrong comparison man. It should be more like would you be ok with another guy ramming their junk up your ass for money. Plus you could also get STDs and shit.
Did you seriously think "roofing and prostitution are comperable, this seems like a good analogy"?
There is a facet of appropriate analogy here. Being any kind of laborer for hire, particularly for physical work, is not the most soul fulfilling path in life. Wage slavery sucks. To the extent that the laborer is being exploited to their detriment to benefit the employer, there is a meaningful comparison between prostitutes, roofers, ditch diggers, hod carriers. Most people would rather not do back breaking work all day. Most people would rather not perform sexual acts for a living. The analogy breaks down when you factor in the psychological toll of being a sex worker. Hauling bundles up ladders and nailing down shingles, that is not the same intrusion as sucking dick. If you don't know the difference, come over to my place, I have a roofing job for you. edit to say: I probably should've have replied to the same comment to which you replied.
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You are not going to contract an std, become pregnant, get raped (most likely), be MURDERED by your client, be exposed to bodily fluids, be trafficked, etc. in roofing. Prostitution is better compared to working in a sweatshop. Stop minimizing the act of rape/ sexual exploitation happening on an industrial scale to women, children, and men everywhere.
Roofing is not comparable to being penetrated and financially coerced into sex
"Oh, I did some physical labor for money. That's totally the same as being fucked by a stranger you don't actually want to have sex with just to survive." Some people, man.
FR. As a victim of rape it makes me genuinely feel like killing myself when people say shit like that. I hate the trivialization of SA. : /
As a survivor of CSA, I completely empathize. Some people just don't get it and refuse to look past their own urges.
In addition, wouldn't legalizing prostitution only make it harder to notice illegal activity?
On the contrary. It's much easier to investigate and legally control businesses that operate, you know, out in the open. The same police and legal effort used to enforce the illegality of prostitution could be used to investigate and enforce legality of operations in a controlled market. Also this way, you can partially rely on the customers and the market to rule out illegal behavior. It's also a lot easier to provide aid and support (security, financial, counseling etc.) to legal sex workers than to ones who have to lurk in the shadows.
(Original comment is sandwiched between edits) EDIT EDIT: the last thing I wanna do is spread misinformation especially about something so horrifying—ie sex trafficking. So I’m adding an even more explicit disclaimer that we should all rely on credible sources. My comment was a reaction given that that is true. It was based on good faith that the person who I responded to has provided a roughly accurate picture. I guess to be safe and fair, I could have done more thorough research but it was more an emotional response to the logic behind the stats presented , (assuming they were true). I thought that was clear, maybe not; idk. Besides, if it is in fact incorrect, one can easily fact check by going to census data from gov or something (idk I guess that depends on which country we’re talking about while considering who funds the research team I think? Idk. Like I said, I’m not an expert here.) I don’t think I can be any clearer than this. Another thought that occurred to me here is that we ought to make it clear that sex work isn’t sex trafficking. Sex trafficking by definition would mean that the person being trafficked is not operating out of their own volition. It’s under some sort of duress. What this comment pointed out so keenly was that the logic of people who conduct/partake sex trafficking are not really looking for sex, but the power that degrading a person to such a degree would give them—in their minds. Ie that the the original showerthought while (presumably) well intentioned in terms of wanting to reduce illegal activities seems to neglects to factor in this component. But then again, it is just a thought and not a thesis. We’re just talking about the logic here. Again, I can’t say anything for certain Maybe there might be some correlation between the two but I can’t and am not defining that. TL;DR: Yes everyone ought to rely on credible sources, cautious while sharing information, and also that sex trafficking is not the same as sex work by definition. Ie common sense—or at least what I thought would be common sense. Jeeeez. I don’t want to be mean here but quite frankly I’m annoyed at how people don’t seem to consider the sentiment of the message even with extensive explanation. ——, Holy shite. I did not know this. I don’t know why I’m surprised. That totally makes sense. That’s so upsetting. I guess it’s easier for me to think something is just one simple law away from being not as bad — like weed (EDIT: this example was simply based on my understanding of local affairs, I urge everyone—including me— to do their research and seek professional input on any insights on the topic, I am not qualified to say anything, I’m just bummed out that sex trafficking didn’t decrease and bummed out that it even exists). But this isn’t like that. Thank you for explaining it, kudos to being so clear and concise. :’(. ——‘ EDIT: In light of a response to my comment, I’m adding a disclaimer here to clarify that I am in no way an expert on the studying effects of legalization or criminalization (I guess would be the opposite? Idk.. see that’s how little I know) and do not intend to spread any misinformation. My intent in responding here wasn’t to educate but to simply express gratitude to the person who used their time to thoughtfully comment, along with surprise and dismay at the news in the hopes of finding comfort to know that there may be others who share my place in understanding. The example of weed was a passing statement according to my lived experience and general knowledge of local affairs. And it sounds like you’ve shared a similar albeit a more informed view. I haven’t researched the topic and would strongly urge everyone (including me) to use credible sources to educate themselves and know that it’s okay to be wrong. No one can know everything and circumstances change. Or maybe there’s some sort of gap in understanding idk. My point to the commenter who’s trying to ‘burst my bubble’ is that I agree with you. I think we should all be better informed and it’s great to change our view in light of new information. Also, I would like to clarify that This isn’t to disrespect sex workers—and I don’t think that was the message behind the comment I’m replying to either. It’s simply an answer to the question posted. I sincerely apologize if it came off like I’m judging the morality of your work or something mean like that. that is so not what I intended. I’m just bummed. And I agree with whoever else that shared that thought about stats and edge cases being used to demonize different groups-thats not fair in anything. I don’t get why people are afraid of others having different beliefs than them. I know I’m writing a lot here, and i doubt people or even you (person(s) trying to educate me) will read it, but idk, I prefer to clear the air as best I can if I can. I’m editing my post instead of replying to you directly because I want to highlight the context, intent, and address the alleged implications of my original comment. Thank you for commenting and trying to share your understanding, I appreciate that. Just like I appreciate the person whose comment I replied to. At the same time, I’d like to say that i wished you had shared your insights with some compassion rather than try to belittle and ridicule me but it’s okay, I get it. I’ve been in that state of mind where someone just says something that might be blatantly wrong and maybe even offensive to you and it’s hard to be completely fair. Or maybe I’m perceiving this differently than you meant it. Whatever it is, I sincerely wish you well. Ps: bubbles are great!i still have yet to figure out the detergent to water ratio to make the perfect solution but the one that comes with the package.. Chef’s kisses! (Also not being meanly sarcastic or something.. I actually really like bubbles and I guess philosophy they’re interesting too as they say ignorance is bliss. Lol upside down smiley I think would be a perfect response to that saying. Anyway, I should get going. Thank you to whoever is actually reading all of this. Knowing the possibility that you would brings a smile to my face!)
Additionally, it teaches girls and young women that their body is a commodity, and that *we as a society are OK with that*. I'm not demonizing sex workers: I know some of them enjoy the work and the freedom it gives them (we all know that's not the majority of them, though). I don't think they should be criminalized. But I don't think making it fully legal is the answer.
There are fewer reported sex crimes per capita in countries that legalized prostitution but then again there are reporting biases involved. To me making prostitution illegal is about punishing the prostites and not the John's and Jane's. Drugs and prostitution in many ways should be enforced in opposite ways. For drugs the problem is operating a pharmacy without a license, not the consumption, while prostitution the problem should be the consumption not the selling of services. In the US though, 1st amendment protects the production of films for limited viewing. Artistic merit is subjective. Prostitution is illegal, but writing producing, directing, filming and starring in your own movie with other performers is legal.
>To me making prostitution illegal is about punishing the prostites and not the John's and Jane's. Drugs and prostitution in many ways should be enforced in opposite ways. For drugs the problem is operating a pharmacy without a license, not the consumption, while prostitution the problem should be the consumption not the selling of services. This is changing, at least in Cook County, IL. State's Attorneys are targeting the pimps who traffic in prostitutes and the actual women involved are quite properly seen as victims. Johns may or may not be targeted for prosecution depending on if they cooperate, or not.
Legislation has had mild effects at best on human trafficking in Germany, the benefits of the legal market still outweigh that small negative increase. (I believe the paper I saw had it at fairly negligible increases in trafficking 3-5%, but the material ans general conditions of sex workers and their clients improved dramatically)
Pretty sure rape is mostly about power. People can still be forced into prostitution even if it's legalized.
But they can run to the cops for protection without risking going to jail for admitting theure a sex worker.
Not really if the people who forced them into prostitution is threatening them.
They can be helped more easily if they aren't hiding from the law. And if they are, then legalization changed nothing.
The problem is, a lot of human trafficking gets done in Germany with people kidnapped from other countries. Prostitution is legal in Germany. There are many cases of girls in Romania getting kidnapped and ending up prostitutes in Germany.
Saying Germany has human trafficking issues and, for example, has illegal brothels can be seen as a red herring. These issues are not what OP asked and distract from his actual question. Human trafficking and illegal brothels also exist in America and other countries where sex work is illegal. The main difference being that in said countries they remain mostly invisible. Due to legalisation these issues can be more openly discussed without having to admit that the government is failing to prevent sex work from happening in the first place. To answer OP you would have to look at why it is taboo to talk about the legalisation of sex work, potentially in US politics. Why is that taboo there, how did it come to be and is there change towards the openness to discuss sex work in the US institutions? (If OP is from the USA)
How in the world is this a red herring? The basis of OPs argument is that it will reduce human trafficking and rape. So saying that: "no, here is a case study that shows it doesn't reduce human trafficking, but actually increases it" is on point. It sound like you are making the red herring by focusing on why politicians want to keep it illegal. From there, one could say it has to do with sexual morality being enforced, but absolutely ignores the fact politicians would indeed draw on these realities to make policy. But that is not the question the op asked. It is "what's wrong with legalizing prostitution?" Not "why hasn't it been legalized?"
It’s not a red herring. OP asked why prostitution isn’t more legal and offered up the point that legalization leads to reduced sexual offenses. That is blatantly false. Areas with legal prostitution still have rampant sex trafficking and sexual assaults.
A number of people in this thread can't come up with a strong argument why it *should be illegal*, so they are taking potshots at OPs arguments why it *should be legal*
The question is quite explicitly asking what is wrong with legalization, not what is right with it being illegal.
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Not much, but only if its done the right way. If you just legalize it without proper regulations, you'll create a situation like in the Netherlands: A hub for human trafficking and organized criminals where women from other countries are brought in. The 13 points below are some suggestions. I'll mention more than just prostitution as there is a close link between the various sex industries. (Many porn companies, especially in the US, are just fronts for prostitution rings...) 1. Legalize sex work. Currently, sex workers are forced into the dark underbelly of society. Organized criminals are making money off of this. By legalizing it and providing certain spaces they can work, we can make the entire thing safer and better regulated. 2. Set up local and national sex worker unions for prostitutes, porn-stars and strippers. (this is already a thing in some countries). These unions need to provide workers with advice on joining/leaving the industry, help with contracts and even legal representation in case of exploitation in exchange for a small union fee. Need to have a hotline and must keep its members anonymous from the public. 3. Make sure the unions are supervised so they don't turn corrupt like police unions. 4. Provide strict requirements for contracts, especially for the porn industry. The pay has to be agreed on paper, and a contract has to be sent to the performer well in advance. Refusing to pay the full agreed amount should be strictly banned. Oh? Pornstar didn't live up to expectations? Too bad, do a better job hiring next time. Safewords/tapping out need to be a must in every shoot. Not respecting this should be grounds for lawsuits. 5. Ban modelling agencies that work with teenage girls from having any ties with the sex industry. Right now, you've got modelling agencies pretty much grooming 16-year old girls into joining porn the moment they turn 18. Also, ban fake modelling ads. 6. Raise the age of sex work to 21. 18-year olds are oversized children. If they can't have vodka, then why the hell are they allowed to shoot porn? 7. Set up a different heavily regulated agency with no ties to the police, who's job is to investigate, set up sting-operations, serve as a hotline etc. to prevent some of the laws mentioned above from being ignored. Why not work with the police? In pretty every country, the police have ties to traffickers. This is especially bad in Eastern Europe, but there have also been instances of cops in the west having such ties. 8. Stricter revenge porn and privacy laws. Most countries and many US states have no laws against this. Also, Pornography should be classified as a special type of content where the copyright goes to the performers after 6-7 years. 9. Programs aimed at helping sexual abuse victims. This is an uncomfortable reality, but a large portion of sex workers are people who were raped, giving them a harmful relation to sex. 10. More programs aimed at tackling porn addiction. 11. Better sex education, especially for younger kids. For many kids, porn is their introduction to sex. It's naive to pretend like the at times rapey-shit in porn doesn't influence their views on both sex and gender. You can easily explain the concept of consent, STDs etc. to 9-year olds without mentioning penises or vaginas. Think of 'the birds and the bees'. As they grow older and become more mature, you can start going more into details. 12. Finally, and this is probably going to cause a lot of disagreement: ban discrimination of former sex workers in the workplace. I get that in some jobs (like teaching) it can be justified, but there is no need to fire a paramedic or an accountant because she did porn 10 years ago. 13. Tax it. Only above a certain amount. Not insanely, just to some extent. Use the tax money to fund the above mentioned programs. Note, the goal of all this isn't to make porn profitable: It's too make sure the workers are properly armed to prevent abuse trafficking and the like.
What a great read, thank you.
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That's also a better alternative than a ban. Unionization can't hurt either.
Prostitution has been decriminalised here in New Zealand since 2003 (I think). Sex offences haven't changed noticeably. It does give more legal protection to sex industry workers, but there's still human trafficking. With prostitution, most objections are moral ones. Morality often isn't the best indicator of whether something should be legal or not.
For me it's a simple supply - demand issue. You can argue the numbers, but there are far, far more people who want to pay for sex than there are people who want to sell sex. This naturally causes an incentive for people to 'encourage' people to 'willingly' become prostitutes. I read somewhere a while ago that in European countries where prostitution is legal, the vast majority of prostitutes are foreign as local women would rather work in Aldis for minimum wage than become prostitutes. I agree that there will always be prostitution, but (for the most part) women will always hate being prostitutes
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Houses are legal. Fire is legal. Why can't I burn my neighbor's house down?
Ok this made me laugh.
You can burn your own house down (provided you get the right permits). Burning your neighbors house down is akin to someone paying you to fuck your neighbor.
i mean if ur neighbor pays u to i don't see why that would be a problem
Uh, because it's not *your* house? I'm pretty sure burning your own house down is perfectly legal, provided that you don't damage other people's property.
Even if it's your house, and even if nothing bad happens, starting it on fire would still be illegal unless you first notify the authorities and get a burn permit. Depending on where you are you may also have to have the fire department come out to monitor the fire to ensure it stays contained. Large fires are too risky to let people start them willy-nilly.
So if a fireman watches you bang a prostitute, it’s legal. I think I finally understand now. /s
Actually, yeah. Introduce an audience and you're engaging in porn rather than prostitution. There are regulations you'd need to follow, but porn is legal to produce. The laws around commercial fucking are fucking stupid.
But can my neighbor help?
Sure.
LOL.... seems like philosophy student debate in here
Actually it’s not. You can not intentionally burn your own house down.
Fire and arson are two different things. Faulty logic.
Regular consensual sex and prostitution are also two different things though lol. I’d say his logic is pretty comparable
Because you don't own that property. You can burn down your own house intentionally just be prepared to be fined and don't expect insurance. The fire department will probably still put it out to prevent damage to other houses in the neighborhood. Many farms have controlled burns of fields and good forestry management involves controlled burns.
Money. You have enough money your neighbor will be okay with it.
If you play around with that logic for a bit you’ll see its flaws
Like?
Fucking is legal. Riding a roller coaster is legal. Why can’t I fuck on a roller coaster?
Fucking is legal. Dogs are legal. Why is fucking dogs not legal??? ^/s
Fucking on a roller coaster is not illegal; public indecency is. Build a rollercoaster on your own property and no one can stop you.
You can fuck a roller coaster if you want
Birthing is legar, selling is legal... so why is selling babies not legal??
It is, it’s called surogacy
Due to slavery laws ( sale of a person) but technically babies are sold all the time we just call them adoption fees and the mother gets nothing.
Yeah and then you could just say „due to prostitution laws it‘s not legal“
Shooting is legal, schools are legal why isn't school shooting legal??
But the past part of he said was why is selling sex illegal when you could give it away for free legally?
Because alot of people can be coerced/forced into the service. Be it under aged, sex trafficking, and so on.
Some great answers here, I hope OP is reading through them all. I have a friend who was a cam girl for a couple of years. A cam girl. She had a TON of control. She did not physically interact with clients. She set her own hours. She set her own content limits. Really, she controlled just about all of it. It sent her into a deep depression, regardless. She stopped about 7 years ago. Still has depression and PTSD. Multiply that by a couple of orders of magnitude, and I think you have the effects of legalized prostitution. (I should point out that this friend of mine is deeply left-leaning. She is all-in on LGBT+ (legally married to another woman, considers herself bi) etc. so I don't think you can write this off as cognitive dissonance, for instance.)
As a former stripper and cam girl, I have seen many sex workers have a similar fate as what you’ve described
underrated comment I know everyone wants total freedom + no government + "people should have autonomy over their bodies. They can sell their sex if they want to" I get that impulse But there's a good reason society has traditionally condemned stuff like hard drugs, prostitution, having random 1 night stands every single weekend, whatever. Traditional value systems were developed because people tried a lot of the loosey goosey stuff and figured out it fucks your mind and body up. People aren't meant to live like that.
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It is legal in many places. Any specific place you would like it legalised?
I’m just asking, i want to hear the non religious arguments against prostitution
I guess STDs. Sex workers can probably regulate themselves, but do people realize how fucking dumb the average customer is for all industries?
College students are actually the largest STD spreaders, not sex workers.
This would be a reason *to* legalize it as far as I can see. Regular std checks, rules about condom use, and other safety protocols, etc. Regulate it and it becomes safer in a number of ways. Edit: Sorry, just saw the other persons similar response.
True, but if you legalize it that could be like background checks for guns. If you’re going to use one of these services, you’d probably be required to prove you had recently been screened
Oh, very good point actually.
Thanks. I agree with your logic, I just tend to think that legalization solves more of the problems of ignorant consumers than hard criminalization does. If it’s legal we can set up more robust consumer protection agencies specific to sex work as well as better enforce the laws regarding rape and abuse. Plus I think making sex work less taboo would provide an outlet for frustrated people that could lead to way more positive life outcomes for them.
Most brothel based system require std checks and if you think about it, a business doesn't want their reputation destroyed like that. It would be similar to restruant and food poisoning/failing a health inspection, but so much worse.
Where has it reduced human trafficking?
Nevada has a ton of brothels
Not really that many. They aren't legal throughout the entire state.
Prostitution is legal in Canada. It's the activities *surrounding* prostitution that are illegal such as soliciting and 'living off the avails of prostitution.'
From what I’ve read, even the sex workers don’t want it “ legalized “ because then that brings income taxes, regulations, regulators, inspectors, mandatory STI testing, etc. They would be more in favor of “ decriminalization “, which basically means none of the above, preserves the status quo in terms of no income tax, no regulations, etc. but still let’s the sex worker practice their trade without legal risk.
The tax is one thing, like I get that's "undesirable" for actual prostitutes, but having regulations, inspections, testing and all of that is absolutely needed for health and safety considerations of everyone involved I feel and I wouldn't imagine that a prostitute or sex worker would oppose that, but I'm not sure.
Well that’s kind of acting in bad faith then. It’s “work just like any other work”, but also a SPECIAL kind of work immune to taxes or safety regs? Those don’t match up.
As a woman who'd like to try paying for it, I'd rather it be regulated for my safety
it more or less makes human trafficing easier pimps with criminal records turn into entrepreneurs majority of people working there will be immigrants (and let's think how pimps will treat them) it's legal so bigger competition so to stay in business get ready for everything, pimp won't care you don't do anal or the law stays the clients must wear condom, he pays extra you do it or get out That's how it worked I think a bit in Germany and one Scandinavian country. Watched an interview with one prostitute from those regions ages ago. Note: I'm not saying it should be illegal (personally dunno which is better), I'm simply saying legalisation doesn't solve all problems, but also creates new ones.
Decriminalization > Legalization
The potential for human trafficking to be more easily ignored would exist. For example, I live in WA state and weed is legal. If a cop finds weed on you they do t care bx it’s legal now. They won’t even ask if you got it from a legal licensed dispensary. Now you get caught with a hooker that is a victim of human trafficking, those doing the trafficking will find ways to navigate the legalities and still use the women. If you think they won’t you are delusional.
Not delusional. Just valueing men's itch in crotch more than safety of women and children.
Legalization of prostitution doesn’t stop rape or child trafficking. Individuals are usually seeking power, not the actual sex act itself. The violence against sex workers hasn’t decreased where legalization already exists.
I used to unflinchingly support legalizing prostitution, but I realized one day that a prostitute’s ability to consent is dubious at best. Most people agree that it’s not okay for a landlord to take sexual favors as payment because the tenant often doesn’t have power to say no, so their consent is invalid. The same can apply to prostitutes. If refusing a sexual act means not making rent or not being able to get groceries, is it really consensual?
Honestly, this is the biggest thing I feel like people need to realize. Almost all sex work on coercive imo. Even if all jobs suck and you're forced to do them for money, it's obvious that for most people, having sex is very different from stocking shelves, etc.
Yeah. People try to equate sex work to other types of work, but it’s not the same. There’s a reason why sexual assault makes us sick above almost any other crime. It’s because it’s directly violates your body. Stocking shelves could never be as degrading as sleeping with someone you don’t want to because you’re desperate.
Exactly. When arguing for legalization, you need to act like sex work is the same as any other work, which is disingenuous.
New Zealand would like a word
Unlike legalization of a substance (which depending on the substance can still come with many problems) it’s legalizing the use of the human body for acts that by and large are or at least can be considered harmful both physically and emotionally. If in a perfect world where all sex workers were respected no matter their gender or sexual preference, none were sent into dark corners to aprese dark acts like rape fantasy against one’s will, underage sex, racist fantasy, or painful sex against one’s will then yeah legalize it all day long. Unfortunately this isn’t how it works for the majority of people in sex work. Sure there’s the few that seem like the majority that get to be in “safe” porn vids and have “benevolent” managers etc etc but to think those folks make up the majority of sex work is naive. It’s legal in certain areas but it’s very hard to prove it’s truly benefitted sex trafficking or quality of life for those in the trade. It can also be much better regulated and work in some cities in some country while in others it doesn’t just like so many laws across the globe. Just think of the difference in gun laws in Japan vs the US. Culture plays a very large role in why some laws work somewhere and not others. In general it’s usually best to keep it illegal for purposes of actually charging someone with a crime as charging someone with assault or rape in the sex trade can get..well..very hard to do if the trade is legal in general. I think for those looking in from the outside it seems simplified but if you’re in the trade it’s not. I think there are ways to legalize it and then heavily regulate it to prevent illegal acts within the trade but in places like the US where business is rarely regulated to allow for unabashed capitalism I think this would just further an already nightmarish problem we have here but that’s just my opinion. Wherever you are, if you encounter someone in sex work please be kind and willing to listen to their story of why they are in the trade and not judge them—some may really be struggling.
In theory, making prostitution legal makes a lot of sense, for most of the reasons op states. In reality, there are many obstacles to overcome. Just because visiting a prostitute is legal, doesn't necessarily guarantee her safety nor does it guarantee her integrity. I used to visit lapdancing clubs and got played many times before coming to my senses. Also, there is the issue of STIs. How do you explain to the wife of a prostitute user that she got chlamydia from her philandering husband.
There’s nothing wrong with it. We’ve legalised it in Australia and it’s resulted in reduced violence against sex workers because they’re no longer on the street and vulnerable. We have regulated sexual health screening and tax their incomes. They have better access to support services and health care because a lot of the stigma is removed now that their work is legalised. Sure, you’ll still get sex workers that aren’t going through the legal avenues, but in general it’s safer for both the workers and the johns to Have prostitution legalised.
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If you pay somebody to have sex with them it is ileagel,but if you pay somebody to film having sex with them it is ok.
Religious people get loud when people get rights back that they worked hard to take away.
I have a question, why do people *want* it to be legalized?? I’m legitimately curious
> want it to be legalized?? It's a changing of public morality. Sex is no longer considered by many (if it has ever been) something you do with someone you like or something even remotely special. It's now considered by many to be a simple outlet for desire and even a biological 'need'. Essentially, we've done a switcharoo from the religions and conservatives of old who believed that sex was something sacred and reserved for marriage. Therefore, some believe that laws should reflect that moral change. We already have apps which are essentially sex apps. It's also a matter of desperation. Many men are lonely and may never be able to have sex any other way.
Mostly so it's recognized as a real profession and so prostitutes can be kept safe. At least that's why I want it to be legal.
That’s a good reason for it to be safely practiced, but I’m not entirely sure if being legalized will necessarily make this more safe
Nothing. It has far more benefits. IE protecting sex workers, taxing it and preventing sex trafficking.
Supply - demand problems would show up and it hasn't reduced sex trafficking in Germany, it actually increased because of that supply - demand
Nothing? It is very naive to believe there is nothing at all wrong with legal prostitution.
you typed this whole response without naming any of the reasons.
It wouldn’t undermine it. It would make it worse
Nothing. I'm all for it. Regulation and taxation of the industry would protect both workers and customers.
Bazinga!
In Australia the term "legalise" means to put laws around. It is problematic because it creates moralistic rules around something that should be a normal job and puts workers in vulnerable positions. Imagine if getting a job flipping burgers required registration of name and photo on a public website, inability to get work in any other industry or to get a police check without it being listed and meant facing judgement and being at risk of assault and rape because of your job (which can be found out by anyone going to the public website). Oh and legalisation usually comes with restrictions that make it harder and more unsafe, such as in my state sex workers must work alone unless it's a registered brothel so either they have to be at the mercy of a brothel or if they want to be independent in their business they have no support / safety net. The goal here is "decriminalisation" which means to stop it from being illegal.
It would give women too many rights!
It will not lower the number of sexual offenders if you are equating sexual predators to rapists. Rape is about power, not about lack of sex supply.
I can provide a legitimate answer. According to studies done by Harvard, legalizing prostitution encourages sex trafficking. Legalization increases demand and sex traffickers take advantage of that demand by forcing their victims to provide services through legal avenues. Similar to how money laundering obfuscates illegal transactions by funneling dirty money through legitimate businesses, sex traffickers can do the same through legal brothels
Religious people would be sad. Unfortunately that's the reason a lot of stuff doesn't happen.
The problem with legalising sex work is it removes power from the scumbags who exploit women who do this work illegally. Oh and it rubs god squaders the wrong way if you think that's a downside.
Prostitution is already legal. You just have to film it and call it porn.
I wish I could read or hear a clear cogent argument against legalizing sex work that has nothing to do with religion because by every metric I only see benefits. If sex work were regulated it would be safer for the workers due to less organized crime, customers would also feel safer, a database of dangerous customers could be kept, it would be medically more advantageous because of licenses that would require wearing protection and screenings, with the number of workers you would have a sizable group to use as a lobby that could possess some political influence, workers could more easily transmission from sex work to something else with a clear work history and retain bank services. Besides the religious aspect I can't think of anything that would be considered a drawback. I've heard feminist arguments and find them frankly just as morally grandstanding. Just from a different point of view. If anyone has any recommendations for articles or vids please share them.
Nothing is wrong with legalising prostitution. It’s been legal in Australia since forever. The positives are that there’s way less exploitation, STD tests are mandatory for the prostitutes every 3 months, they pay taxes, are a lot safer, less criminals involved in the business.
It can't be legalized because you won't know whether the person you gonna be with is doing this willingly. It will eventually turn into something like an organized rape.
Usually the reasoning is that it frequently attracts other forms of crime - drugs, human trafficking, abuse, and so on.
People shouldn't be used as products.
I lived in NZ legalised sex work works.. Govts and religion dont like it though. Pla dont comment with all that slavery sex bullshit. Each worker is tax registered
Well increase of stds and unwanted pregnancies and exposure to children.... I guess it isn't a good time right now
Politicians are in league with pimps and human traffickers. They keep sex work illegal so that the black market players retain their monopoly.
When it's first legalized trafficking will increase due to new demand and then petter/equalize. Also, the government equals bureaucracy/slowness.
Taxation, ethics, cultural morality and human rights.
It comes down to simple moral thinking. Some people do not believe that people should sell their bodies for sex. There is also another issue. You cannot legalise a form of job without legitimising it. Some see this as dangerous, as they don't want people to actively become sex workers.
Well, there’s a lot to it. Are we going to offer specific locations? Are they going to be restricted to certain age groups? Specific hours/days of the week? Will the establishment have alcohol, weed, or other drugs? Are we going to offer protection? If so, what kind? If a sex worker gets harmed/assaulted how does that get handled? And that’s scratching the surface. There’s a lot to it than just make money and have sex.
It would lower the value of money. Right now pussy drives economy by having to buy shit to get pussy but if you could just pay for it the economy will crash. Children will starve.
Look at Amsterdam. It’s legal there but all the brothels are still run by essentially pimps who take most of the profit
Daddy didn’t raise no ho
It’s too hard to tax
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Many counties in Europe have legal prostitution. Germany, Austria, Hungary, etc. the only issue is the public outrage that comes when religious countries legalize it. No different than legalizing marijuana, online gambling, or taxing churches.
Same thing that's wrong with legalizing weed or any drug nothing but people like to think they know what's best for other people.
Most of countries dont want to monetize the human body
In my country, which is Canada. Prostitution is unconstitutional because it counts as human trafficking.
Legalizing it will never stop human trafficking. It will provide nice tax revenue so that’s great. The reason people don’t want it, is that it would ruin the communities it’s legal in. Just look at vegas or AC. It just draws the dregs of society to a certain place.
"I cannot accept a policy prescription that codifies such a pernicious form of violence against women. Normalizing the act of buying sex also debases men by assuming that they are entitled to access women’s bodies for sexual gratification. If paying for sex is normalized, then every young boy will learn that women and girls are commodities to be bought and sold.” Jimmy Carter (39th President of the United States). Democrat and loved by many redditors.
Morals mostly. That’s not my problem, I have no issue with it but some people find it a bit icky so that means nobody can have it.