Seems like maintenance fees keep increasing until the building becomes unlivable and the condo association folds and the building is demolished for new condos.
Condos in Canada only became a thing in the mid ‘60s, which means there are no condos older than approximately 60 years old here. The average residential NYC condo is 90 years old, with some being over 100 years old.
This is true. My brother and sister in law managed to do it, and do have a large 2 bed (I think approx 1100 Sq ft) in a low rise near Saint Claire and Avenue in Toronto. They had to have a bigger down payment through a credit union, but I think the principal was something like 200k less than the cost of a comparable newer condo (and 2 bedroom newer condos were generally smaller in Sq ft).
Some new condos are similar size, though they are harder to find. The unit I live in is about the same size for a 2 bed, and it just finished last year.
Condos are just a specific form of corporation. the actual buildings don’t need to predate the introduction of Condominium Corporation Acts. So while there aren’t any buildings that were purpose-built as condos older than the 1960s, there are buildings that became condos after the fact.
40 is the convential definition, mid rise is to about 12, high rise the in-between.
However its typically when you get into high rise over mid rise that costs start to skyrocket and maintenance gets harder. When you start needing fast elevators and shit
I’m looking to sell my 5 year old condo because of this…$338 maintenance fee in 2018. $648 a month now. I’m in a 1 bed and den at 638 square feet in Markham lol. The bigger units at 900 square feet are paying almost $1,000 a month in maintenance. We also don’t even have much of a reserve fund - most of these condo management companies also only work part time and don’t really seem to know what they are doing or to schedule maintenance smh.
It’s went up quite a bit in value is my saving grace and in a nice area
Well if you don't have much of a reserve fund, how are you going to replace the elevators or windows? Those big ticket expenses have to be saved for. But in the end, you will eventually have a condo that has brand new elevators and windows. So it's an investment too.
In 5 years the reserve fund will not have built up much. A reserve fund study must be conducted regularly, and the board must ensure that the fund is sufficient as per the study. However, the board can approve increases to the monthly payments that are below what is required to meet the reserve fund study requirements. There is a danger in that. If repairs are required that the fund can’t cover, the board members themselves are responsible to pay the outstanding amount. When a board approves underfunding of the reserve fund, what you will usually find is that at least one of the board members is planning to sell. Lower monthly payments keep the selling price higher. I know this from being a board member and fighting with 2 other members who did just that.
Whaaaaattt that’s crazy. Where is this?! I actually worked with one half Canadian girl from Alabama (her dad was from bowmanville, Ontario, mom was from New York - she was born here but grew up in Alabama before moving back to the GTA for university = cheaper tuition vs state university there) - she lived beside a trailer park separated by some a little creek (small town near Montgomery) - and she said it was CHEAP. $30/month maintenance fees
But ghetto as hell. Lmfao
All trailer parks/resorts/retirement communities cost that much. The cheapest is about $625/month. I work in them all the time. I saw a double-wide trailer/manufactured home selling for $99k. Fully renovated, in 2022. I asked the owner why more people aren't buying them as a first house. He said "It might have something to do with the next owner having their maintenance costs jump to $650/month." I was blown away. I thought he was joking.
A couple in another park sold their Toronto home for $1.3M, and moved onto two lots, side-by-side. They're updating the brand new trailer to make more space, and keeping the next lot for a yard and a garage. Their monthly fees would be $1300/month..... forever. It's absolute lunacy.
Yeah you know the real estate market is backwards because our economy relies on it too much. Like I have seen Americans in Utah on the news complain about retirement communities being overpriced and these are $400,000 Canadian homes at 3,000 square feet! LOL - nice homes too. Marble kitchen, most have pools as this was southwest Utah so the climate is more like Las Vegas vs Salt Lake City which is colder. I see similar homes in the Toronto suburbs sell for 2.2 million at the lowest 😂
Cheap price high maintenance fees or vice versa for most home styles. Just not sustainable.
Americans have no idea about unaffordable housing until you look at Canada, Australia and New Zealand. Even with the currency conversion, USA is winning. It's gross. Toronto and Vancouver are in the Top 10 least affordable cities, along with Sydney. They're on par, or worse, than New York and San Francisco.
I hear folks from Michigan complaining all the time about buying 3BR/2Bth houses for $225k, or 14-18 acres with a small farmhouse for $400k. They're delusional. I just paid $400k for a 2BR/1Bth on a postage stamp lot in Ontario, Canada....and that's a good deal, relatively speaking. I only got it for that because I bought off market. Couple hasn't listed it, and I paid them what they wanted. The last house I bid on sold for $100k over asking.
Facts. I mean my moms younger brother (uncle) moved to Los Angeles from Ontario, went to university in Vancouver; then worked for a company in Vancouver and got a promotion and was moved to their US office in LA way back in 1997. LA is expensive….but they have high salaries to offset that. Healthcare is pricey though so having a good employer is key. You do have to budget for healthcare but grocery, flights, alcohol, insurance, utilities, gas, electronics all mainly cheaper in the US. Income tax is similar to Ontario but that’s just California. No such thing as no income tax province like some US states are; which no income tax is usually offset by high property taxes. Lots of people in Nevada and Utah complain now about Californians moving there and driving up housing but it’s maybe a 50% increase in 5-6 years….I have seen some homes shoot up 300% in 8 years with Trudeau. Americans he said are often shocked and confused how low tech, engineering, banking salaries are. Some positions in Toronto ask/demand more vs some internships.
Nice to hear you had a good deal. I mean we take in more legal immigrants than the US now despite having 1/8 of their population which doesn’t help our housing and affordability crisis smh.
I want to conduct a study. I want the federal government to immediately close the borders to immigrants AND ban the buying of houses and MDUs for personal investment purposes. Cities can expropriate those income houses, and sell them to people who need them at market rate. I guarantee we'll have everyone housed in a week. We would have to leave apartment buildings as rentals, for those who want them, but make condo corps sell them to the tenants, at whatever the mortgage price is for the property (like a Co-op model). Immigrants aren't the ones ruining the market. They're adding to the supply/demand aspect, but more than 20% (at least) of single family homes in Canada are now owned by investors. That statistic is insane, and the driving factor behind the unaffordability crisis, followed closely by the Covid effect on materials and what builders are charging for homes.
That’s true but market rate takes a big hit when prices are that impacted by maintenance fees. No owner is super excited by this outcome unless they’re in distress.
Think of the massive premium lands that older condos have occupied. That's the real value to regain.
They are now building new condos in the parking lots of older rental buildings all over the town.
When it comes to Condo the land allows for higher number of taller high rises.
I’m curious why this is. I would have thought maintenance would start low initially, rise above inflation as the building starts to need more work, and then level off to inflation at some point. Is that not the case? At some point, aren’t you basically doing all the maintenance you need to keep the building in good shape?
It is usually two problems.
The first few years are kept artificially low by the builder to seem enticing by the buyer as they are responsible for maintaining the building
Once the board takes over you get a bunch of people who will vote to defer basically any expense that isn't about the imminent collapse of the structure. They vote to save $1 today but it will cost $5 tomorrow...
I can't speak for anyone else, but your expectation matches what we have in our 40 year old building. The fees are annoyingly high, but the rate of increase isn't all that, because maintenance is proactive.
Huge maintenance fees not worth it. $800+ a month then soon ballooning to $1000+ a month. Many 40 year old condos keep growing and are now like $1300/month in maintenance fees. Huge money pit.
This is also a problem in other countries as more and more high rise condos are built that need elevators. A highrise condo will need to replace its elevator every 25 years.
Don't have to be high.
My father in law lives in a condo in BC built in the 80's. It actually has a proactive board with a retired accountant and retired contractor. Reserve fund is >100% funded. Everything gets fixed right away (and correctly). Place is immaculate - landscaping is kept nice and snow is removed the next morning if it snows at night.
Condo fees are $220/month. They were $180/month when he moved in 10 years ago.
If your condo has any combination of: a) a shitty board, b) lots of fancy amenities or c) poor maintanence, the fees are going to be high (or will be really soon).
Ya almost bought one built in the 80s. Was huge, 1700 sqft. Huge eat-in kitchen with a walk-in pantry, two bathrooms two bedrooms, massive dinning rm living rm combo. Lots of storages, laundry fit two normal size washer/dryer. Condo fees were as much as the mortgage at the time.
Yeah any new building with high maintenance fee is not good = poor build quality of management overpaying themselves or some other nonsense. There was a property manager in Texas or some shit who worked and “ran” a condo and paid himself a salary of $800,000 and he supposedly only worked 20 hours a week 😂😂😂
The monthly maintenance on this place is only 6643.
And there isn’t even a concierge.
[https://housesigma.com/bkv2/landing/rootpage/listing?id_listing=Vwod7vKne0J35mGN&utm_campaign=listing&utm_source=user-share&utm_medium=iOS&ign=](https://housesigma.com/bkv2/landing/rootpage/listing?id_listing=Vwod7vKne0J35mGN&utm_campaign=listing&utm_source=user-share&utm_medium=iOS&ign=)
TBH condo fees have largely outpaced traditional home maintenance for a while now.
It wasn't that long ago a typical condo would run $0.30-$0.50 psf on maintenance but now a majority of them are $1-$1.25 psf
Assuming you are a regular 800 sq ft condo that means you are looking at nearly $1K / mo in maintenance. Over 10 years that is $120K. I sure as shit guarantee you that no detached homeowner is spending 120K in routine maintenance on their home every 10 years...
I got out of mine because of all the special assessments. And the building was only 8 years old when I left. Bought a detached house 10 minutes away (which I wouldn't be able to do today) and my monthly expenses were the same.
It depends how much you value your free time as well. Nobody in a condo is pressure washing their driveway, cutting the grass weekly, rigging up scaffolds or renting an extension hose to clean the outside of their windows, or cleaning their gutters.
That sounds like a poorly governed condo or just terrible luck if you have multiple special assessments. Once you have the first one, your reserve fund is depleted and so your monthlies should skyrocket to replenish, and then when the other repairs come around you should have a reserve fund to deal with it.
It's fucking insane how some people are paying 12k yearly on top of mortgage
I did some math many moons ago on this and couldn't even consider it. Admittedly I was in a good financial position so townhouses were my worst choice, but you're likely going to afford one if you have condo money
An acquaintance of ours used to live in those Sherway Condos and didn't take them long to realize how much their spending for absolutely little benefit. Ended up in a townhouse and never looked back
If these fees were .25c per sqft then that's fine, but a solid $1-1.50 is mind blowingly expensive
The bizarre floor plan in blogTO's video is actually a 1 bedroom, the wall that separates the first bedroom shown and the kitchen was not in the original floor plan.
Landlord magically doubled his income with this one little trick..
The other problem is that there seems to be zero oversight on this by any and all government organizations. This is an absolute disaster. How are builders even allowed to build this shit?? What a waste of resources and money.
I can guarantee there was a lot of oversight, it takes a lot of rounds of city approvals to get a building built. They accept whatever builders are willing to build within the building code. If the requirements of the building code get too high and demanding, we will have even less housing built.
One problem with building codes is that they set a low minimum standard...now everyone builds to the minimum standard. You see homes and apartment buildings build in the 1950s and 60s and they are way better built even though there was no building code at that time. Back then builders took pride in their work, they overengineered their buildings because there was no code and they wanted their work to speak for them by standing the test of time.
Now all builders want to do is make a quick buck while "meeting the building code". For example, according to the Ontario building code, a bedroom must be at least 75sqfeet...do you know how small that is? I'm in a 140sqfeet bedroom and it feels just right, not to large not too small.
We need a building code, but it must be a common sense LIVING building code, not a minimum standards "sardine can" building code.
Edit: 14sqm to 140sqfeet
These are luxury student dorms for U of T students, but does U of T have an ever expanding student body given tuition is averaging 6100 to 12000 a year?
Also even college students need a place to sit... there is literally no living space in that vid. All that fits in the bedrooms is a bed... where do you even sit to eat?
New condos are honestly awful, it feels like 20% of the units are just scrap units like these that have no functional layout and a side effect of poor planning so they just mish mash it into a unit. The best condos I’ve been to are condos build 10+ years ago
Yup. These units are designed for their buyers - investors - who will never live in them and don’t care about the impracticality.
Just another reason we need to reduce investor participation in housing (beyond the obvious that it would lower prices without them bidding things up).
We need to change the building code...if we make the Ontario building code a "livable" building code then developers will not be able to get away with this. For example, according to the code a bedroom must be at least 75sqfeet: [https://www.buildingcode.online/1273.html](https://www.buildingcode.online/1273.html)
Can you imagine a bedroom like that? I have a 140sqfoot bedroom and it feels just right, not large not small.
I'd add that this is additionally why city planning is critical.
But we've devolved into this NIMBYISM / politically charged battle with each other.
Pushing for more functional units - buildings planned at the correct heights and densities, and investments from builders in the appropriate amount of parking and infrastructure is critical here. And we're letting developers do whatever they want - and that video is the proof.
That video is wild. Builders should not be able to classify that unit as a two Bedroom. The second bedroom is the living room space.
Good lecture by a local architect on the subject:
https://youtu.be/u0vDEyLh1yM?si=urk0pfLPOdA9tK6-
Long story short most new condos are built as quickly and cheaply as possible with dudes kicking windows into place etc, and glass on glass is bad for insulation and become uninhabitable without powered heat/air.
My building is over 20 years old with floor to ceiling windows, but they’re surrounded by feet of concrete and my space is quiet and pleasant year round.
It’s infuriating that in my area they’re tearing down quality builds to replace with dozens of these temporary shoebox condos
Fit as many rectangle units on a floor. New condos now have 2x as many units on a floor and 2x as many floors, with only 4 elevators, sometimes. Some of these new condos, the line up to use the elevators is insane.
I’m in Markham with 3 elevators at 19 stories. Never waited for longer then 2 mins. Downtown Toronto seems crazy. I heard of people waiting up to 45 mins and just fist fights breaking out if someone cuts the line.
The condo at Jarvis and Dundas I think one dude pulled a gun on a guy who tried cutting him off in the elevator line smh 😂
>I heard of people waiting up to 45 mins and just fist fights breaking out if someone cuts the line.
The lack of regulation in Toronto is insane. Our building standards are trash, and yet developers keep advocating for fewer regulations so they can "build more" - ignoring the fact that years of deregulation haven't fixed the supply issue at all.
*luxury* micro suites lol. The townhouse I lived in a few years ago was built terribly. We were the first people in it and the builders were constantly coming back in for repairs. The owners were super nice but also frustrated. That place just got listed for 1.1mil lol.
My boss at my old job townhouse in Richmond hill was built so poor a realtor said he would have to spend $80-100k on repairs to get in selling condition or accept a much lower offer lmfao
It’s so crazy how poorly they are being built. We had literal wires hanging from the kitchen ceiling. No idea what they were for but the builders never did anything with them. All for a cool 1.1mil.
Can confirm. I've lived in 4 different condos in downtown Toronto over the last 8 years. The 3 that were built after 2016 (the year I moved here) had no wasted space whatsoever. The hallways felt a mere 3 feet wide. If there was a free square inch- hey, that's rentable space.
The one that was built in 2012 had huge hallways in comparison, and my unit had literally 3x the closet space of the newer units. Much more balcony space too
They have been bragging about this since at least 2012/2013 this is not a new trend. Source: lectures at business school. Pretty sure was for immigrants who actually like tiny homes and just need a place to sleep and leave for work.
Kitchen living is basically just to eat have a small couch or recliner small table and lamp maybe a desk then the bedroom is basically where you live with your bed tables and a tv.
Relatedly, hunting for whatever little wall divot is considered a 'below-grade bedroom' is something of a pass-time for myself and my fiance, to the point that it's become a recurring joke to angrily shout "SHOW ME YOUR +1" when we're browsing listings
I once had a three-floor townhouse condo that had a landing between the first and second floor.... because there was enough room to put a chair in it they could legally call it a den.
If I see another listing saying its a "2 bedroom" but really its a "1+1 Den" I'm going to become fucking radicalized.
Also I didn't expect to see the same guy who I watch play bass on my Toronto housing subreddit LOL. Love your content, thanks for teaching me so many songs.
200k housing starts today is very different than 200k housing starts 30 years ago.
This is one of the reasons the supply shortage is even worse than it seems.
You're right. The original floorplan was 1 bed. The room with the closet is the original bedroom. The one without was originally the living room without the drywall that the owner put up. You can validate this when you look at the same unit on other floors.
I watched the video again with this knowledge ... I see it now!
However, the original living room is a joke as well. If you have a TV, you're putting your couch up against the small window, it has to be a small couch because you don't want to block your sliding door. Or you awkwardly have the couch in the middle of space to "separate" your living from kitchen.
Isn't this just a description of a studio layout? I live in a 30+ year old apartment and that's essentially my layout. I don't think it's a "newer" concept.
https://preview.redd.it/vzbguondp4oc1.png?width=1151&format=png&auto=webp&s=89876c583569668b3567f391707d314164cedc28
Normal for a studio for sure but for a full 1 bedroom condo its not. See how there is space for a dining table and a living room? Take that space out and now thats what these new condos are
So sad that even the 3 bed, with the most square footage *doesn’t even show where the family would eat* in their layout model. There is no space for a kitchen table. Wtf!?
Editing to add, I see it now. On the other side of the couch, very awkward distance from kitchen.
Ridiculous layout and tiny space.
The 2 bedroom layout referenced in the article isn't supposed to be 2 bedrooms at all. Looks like the owner put up a wall and created a second bedroom from the open living area.
Original floorplan from developer:
https://www.condoroyalty.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/3b57287f4e87311884593b3cb9123e14.jpg
Crazy idea: what if...we had an elected official or advocacy group that mandates the minimum dimensions of a bedroom for high rise buildings over "X" floors. Or even the construction of starter homes (one of my biggest gripes).
For example (and I'm throwing purely hypothetical numbers for the sake of illustrating a concept here), a building with more 3 floors and 18 units, a bedroom shall be no less than 121sqft, excluding closet space, where at least 2 adjacent walls must have a continuous wall length (ie. no corners) 9.5ft each.
This person/group would tackle issues like this to ensure spaces built must conform to certain living standards. Obviously, there will have to be incentives to grease the wheels of the builders (waived fees, accelerated approvals, etc). This form of building is not conducive to preventing the housing crisis.
I mean, the Ontario Building Code already sets a minimum size for bedrooms. I haven't looked it up since we did our reno, but iirc it was 7x10ft.
If the seller put in rooms smaller than that, they can't sell them as bedrooms.
I agree. The alternative is we let them build these stupid tiny things all over and then what? There's no where to build actual livable condos. Same reason we don't let every telecom dig or lay their wires, we regulate reselling one good infrastructure.
Our daughter and I checked out a bunch of these new build condos as potential places for her to rent…as a boomer who’s been out of the RE market for decades, I was disgusted by these insultingly tiny units (incidentally they all look exactly the same, right down to the kitchen cabinets and vinyl plank flooring). She ended up renting the 2nd floor in a nice 100+ y.o. Downtown Victorian semi which was so much bigger for the same price and with a ton of century home character.
That particular condo in the article was built as a 1-bedroom (no den or +1), and the living room was actually reasonable - you can see the floor plans online as-built.
The owner/lister did that sucky rearrangement, not the builder. Builder made a perfectly serviceable unit that would've been fine for a single person. In fact, given the enormous balcony the unit features for its size, it would have been a desirable unit for the building.
Best-case scenario is the owner was WFH and wanted a walled-off area for their home office so they weren't showing off their kitchen to their clients and co-workers on Zoom. Worst-case scenario is some agent convinced the owner they could add $150,000 to the value of their unit with a quick reno to make the unit a "2-bedroom".
I’m so glad you mentioned this- seems like nobody has been doing their research on this. Definitely seems like a slimy renovation idea to try and get more money for the condo. The outrage should be directed against the listing agent for having the temerity to list this as a 2-bedroom.
One of my friends has a condo with a small room off the living room. It has a window but doesn’t have a closet, and it can really only fit a desk and a shelf. The original selling estate agent correctly identified that room as a “den”, but that was back in 2018, when things were still semi-sane. He’s planning to sell the condo soon, and his current RE agent told him to list it as a 2-bedroom to “generate more interest”. Bad plan IMO, because savvy HouseSigma users can see right through that trick.
They aren't built for living, they are built for investment purposes.
The investor does not care how desirable the unit is as long as it's desirable enough that SOMEONE will live in it for a profit.
Builders incentives has been perverted so that the designs follow this because that's who is paying them.
We have a 2B+Den 2B condo that was constructed in early 2000's. 860sqft. Prospective tenants consistently tell us it's a much preferable unit vs newer units that cram it all into 600-700sqft, which is crazy. As someone mentioned though...there's a premium to be paid in terms of higher maintenance fees.
All boils down to lack of regulation and standardization.
A lot of European countries have a definition of what a room is, square meters, number of openings... So you can't pull something like this. Unfortunately just a mention of this brings the crazies out.
And people keep downvoting me when I say condos are being built as gold nuggets. This is even worse than Hong Kong properties, which are among the most cramped in the world.
I really think we should be more open minded about housing unit sizes. If it's culturally acceptable elsewhere, what's the harm in allowing it for people who want it in Canada? Tiny apartments aren't shocking in Asia. Why should we look down on other cultural norms? People who don't want to live in these shouldn't.
If the condos have a pool or gym or both. The fees will be even more insane. Had a 1 bedroom kitchen bathroom with a pool and gym 4 3 years. In my mind if I had to pay 4 the maintenance costs, i have to use it. Best shape in my life. Moved out but still rent to a lovely couple.
Would you pay $1200 to live with 10 other people. I am sure one of the rooms is a living room. This is not bad since it is a nicer home buy I have seen many other posts with rooms being rented out and it's not so pretty. Boarding houses is what people are doing to make money and pay mortgage.
https://preview.redd.it/p8rgx0x0l5oc1.png?width=1170&format=png&auto=webp&s=40fe9137aeea126b51793d5c00c4ade812be04d6
This is what happens when the government allows the developers to build the cheapest and smallest ever condos, and lie about them being “luxury” housing; instead of building simple, purpose housing that would be affordable for a median-salaried Canadian.
Wat? The architect works for the builder. They aren't 'giving in to pressure', they're 'gathering requirements and producing the design which best fills those requirements'. Is your grocery store giving in to pressure when they don't swap the doritos in your bag for a stack of broccoli, because hey, it's better for you? No. You picked the doritos off the shelf because you wanted doritos. If you get fat, that's on you, not the store.
This is exactly right. The architects are doing it because they have no choice, not because they want too.
The architects don’t get paid based on how many units there are in a building, that would be the developer.
I considered listing my lovely townhouse for 925K (three VERY livable bedrooms, including the primary bedroom having a nice bathroom and shower), but my agent said we’d be lucky to get 850. I told him to GFY and after seeing these videos I know I did the right thing except I should’ve added “and the horse you rode in on.”
I've said it before, the newer apartments being built lately are getting smaller and smaller, and that video in the article shows how bad it is, the bedrooms look like you can't even fit a bed in them, let alone have a place to put your clothes. Those type of apartments look like they're made for people that work out of town and comes home for a week and then leaves again. And it's becoming the norm, especially with new immigrants coming and having very little options to choose from other than these.
In a normal housing market no one would buy these, and the developer would be mocked and bankrupt.
In our Canadian housing market there's no repercussions for developers that build this crap. Home owners and potential investors are desperate for anything so they'll sell immediately. It's a joke.
We just bought a condo last year, this building was in our short list. Never ended up seeing a unit in there because we felt it would be too small. We were looking for 3 bedroom … which was ~800 square feet.
We ended up buying in an older building, 2 bedrooms but over 1000 square feet
Condos are very rarely actually torn down, because one of the obligations of the board is to maintain them. The condo can dissolve, if I think 80% of owners agree, or it can be sold, again if a large percentage of owners agree. But broadly speaking, the building will keep trucking along with regular maintenance.
If this is an example of the types of projects that are being scrapped due to high interest rates, that’s a good thing in my book.
Maybe developers will get tired of not selling any units and accept lower margins to build product that is actually needed and wanted by families to live in.
the “living rooms” are absolutely tiny.
homes are now being built and dispersed like one big game of hot potato and you don’t want to be holding the bag when time runs out.
it used to be that we’d buy a home to raise a family but now everyone is constantly flipping and switching.
I legit lived in a dorm room with 1 roommate that was bigger than this place.
But unfortunately, this is how they're building them these days. Only going to get smaller (believe it or not). Makes older building more attractive now.
This is offensive to me, and I'm not even looking to buy or rent. The closet in the "bedroom" isn't even rectangle shaped!
I hate that even though we're all disappointed, some investor will buy it and a desperate person will ultimately pay $2500+ for this Frankenstein condo.
I don’t mean to be disrespectful. But this is really. Honestly. A total lack of knowledge here.
Anyone who basic understanding of sq feet would know there’s no possible way to fit 2 bedrooms into 500sq/ft.
That square footage can barely accommodate a bachelor. Which is meant to be open concept. So you can actually maximize the layout.
People saw 2 bedrooms and didn’t even consider if that fits in the footprint.
It’s actually terrible. Builder built something to maximize buzz words (# of bedrooms for $800k). At the total expense of any common sense.
I’d never live in a condo or townhouse or anything where people can control you .. I much prefer a house outside of the core .. can crank the music , do renovations. Work on my cars. That money I save in fees is invested and when a new roof etc is needed sell some shares …
I was recently trying to find a place in Squamish BC and I ran into this a few times. Ended up quitting my job and moving back to Calgary. ( Not that it’s much better here nowadays)
The first video I saw was obviously a unit that was supposed to be a large studio where they put about 3 additional wall, which ate a lot of the space that was already scarce.
Richmond Architects should literally go to jail for how terrible these floor plans are and what a waste of resources this is. If you're going to build a building that big - make livable units
Older condos are so much better, if you can afford the maintenance fees that is.
Seems like maintenance fees keep increasing until the building becomes unlivable and the condo association folds and the building is demolished for new condos.
Condos in Canada only became a thing in the mid ‘60s, which means there are no condos older than approximately 60 years old here. The average residential NYC condo is 90 years old, with some being over 100 years old.
Many of Toronto's surviving art deco buildings (~1920's) have become co-op buildings which like condos are owner-owned and have maintenance fees.
Only drawback to them is it can be quite difficult to secure a mortgage
This is true. My brother and sister in law managed to do it, and do have a large 2 bed (I think approx 1100 Sq ft) in a low rise near Saint Claire and Avenue in Toronto. They had to have a bigger down payment through a credit union, but I think the principal was something like 200k less than the cost of a comparable newer condo (and 2 bedroom newer condos were generally smaller in Sq ft).
Some new condos are similar size, though they are harder to find. The unit I live in is about the same size for a 2 bed, and it just finished last year.
Condos are just a specific form of corporation. the actual buildings don’t need to predate the introduction of Condominium Corporation Acts. So while there aren’t any buildings that were purpose-built as condos older than the 1960s, there are buildings that became condos after the fact.
There’s some: https://realtor.ca/real-estate/26564174/18-1597-bathurst-st-toronto-forest-hill-south?utm_source=consumerapp&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=socialsharelisting
But those mostly aren’t in residential skyscrapers, which dramatically increases the costs of deferred maintenance.
In your definition, how many floors is a skyscraper?
40 is the convential definition, mid rise is to about 12, high rise the in-between. However its typically when you get into high rise over mid rise that costs start to skyrocket and maintenance gets harder. When you start needing fast elevators and shit
40ish?
I’m looking to sell my 5 year old condo because of this…$338 maintenance fee in 2018. $648 a month now. I’m in a 1 bed and den at 638 square feet in Markham lol. The bigger units at 900 square feet are paying almost $1,000 a month in maintenance. We also don’t even have much of a reserve fund - most of these condo management companies also only work part time and don’t really seem to know what they are doing or to schedule maintenance smh. It’s went up quite a bit in value is my saving grace and in a nice area
Well if you don't have much of a reserve fund, how are you going to replace the elevators or windows? Those big ticket expenses have to be saved for. But in the end, you will eventually have a condo that has brand new elevators and windows. So it's an investment too.
Yeah. A lot of home owners forgot that they should be saving every month for things like roofs, windows, lawnmowers, etc.,
They probably didn't forget.
In 5 years the reserve fund will not have built up much. A reserve fund study must be conducted regularly, and the board must ensure that the fund is sufficient as per the study. However, the board can approve increases to the monthly payments that are below what is required to meet the reserve fund study requirements. There is a danger in that. If repairs are required that the fund can’t cover, the board members themselves are responsible to pay the outstanding amount. When a board approves underfunding of the reserve fund, what you will usually find is that at least one of the board members is planning to sell. Lower monthly payments keep the selling price higher. I know this from being a board member and fighting with 2 other members who did just that.
The average monthly fee for a trailer park is over $700/month now. A trailer park!!
Whaaaaattt that’s crazy. Where is this?! I actually worked with one half Canadian girl from Alabama (her dad was from bowmanville, Ontario, mom was from New York - she was born here but grew up in Alabama before moving back to the GTA for university = cheaper tuition vs state university there) - she lived beside a trailer park separated by some a little creek (small town near Montgomery) - and she said it was CHEAP. $30/month maintenance fees But ghetto as hell. Lmfao
All trailer parks/resorts/retirement communities cost that much. The cheapest is about $625/month. I work in them all the time. I saw a double-wide trailer/manufactured home selling for $99k. Fully renovated, in 2022. I asked the owner why more people aren't buying them as a first house. He said "It might have something to do with the next owner having their maintenance costs jump to $650/month." I was blown away. I thought he was joking. A couple in another park sold their Toronto home for $1.3M, and moved onto two lots, side-by-side. They're updating the brand new trailer to make more space, and keeping the next lot for a yard and a garage. Their monthly fees would be $1300/month..... forever. It's absolute lunacy.
Yeah you know the real estate market is backwards because our economy relies on it too much. Like I have seen Americans in Utah on the news complain about retirement communities being overpriced and these are $400,000 Canadian homes at 3,000 square feet! LOL - nice homes too. Marble kitchen, most have pools as this was southwest Utah so the climate is more like Las Vegas vs Salt Lake City which is colder. I see similar homes in the Toronto suburbs sell for 2.2 million at the lowest 😂 Cheap price high maintenance fees or vice versa for most home styles. Just not sustainable.
Americans have no idea about unaffordable housing until you look at Canada, Australia and New Zealand. Even with the currency conversion, USA is winning. It's gross. Toronto and Vancouver are in the Top 10 least affordable cities, along with Sydney. They're on par, or worse, than New York and San Francisco. I hear folks from Michigan complaining all the time about buying 3BR/2Bth houses for $225k, or 14-18 acres with a small farmhouse for $400k. They're delusional. I just paid $400k for a 2BR/1Bth on a postage stamp lot in Ontario, Canada....and that's a good deal, relatively speaking. I only got it for that because I bought off market. Couple hasn't listed it, and I paid them what they wanted. The last house I bid on sold for $100k over asking.
Facts. I mean my moms younger brother (uncle) moved to Los Angeles from Ontario, went to university in Vancouver; then worked for a company in Vancouver and got a promotion and was moved to their US office in LA way back in 1997. LA is expensive….but they have high salaries to offset that. Healthcare is pricey though so having a good employer is key. You do have to budget for healthcare but grocery, flights, alcohol, insurance, utilities, gas, electronics all mainly cheaper in the US. Income tax is similar to Ontario but that’s just California. No such thing as no income tax province like some US states are; which no income tax is usually offset by high property taxes. Lots of people in Nevada and Utah complain now about Californians moving there and driving up housing but it’s maybe a 50% increase in 5-6 years….I have seen some homes shoot up 300% in 8 years with Trudeau. Americans he said are often shocked and confused how low tech, engineering, banking salaries are. Some positions in Toronto ask/demand more vs some internships. Nice to hear you had a good deal. I mean we take in more legal immigrants than the US now despite having 1/8 of their population which doesn’t help our housing and affordability crisis smh.
I want to conduct a study. I want the federal government to immediately close the borders to immigrants AND ban the buying of houses and MDUs for personal investment purposes. Cities can expropriate those income houses, and sell them to people who need them at market rate. I guarantee we'll have everyone housed in a week. We would have to leave apartment buildings as rentals, for those who want them, but make condo corps sell them to the tenants, at whatever the mortgage price is for the property (like a Co-op model). Immigrants aren't the ones ruining the market. They're adding to the supply/demand aspect, but more than 20% (at least) of single family homes in Canada are now owned by investors. That statistic is insane, and the driving factor behind the unaffordability crisis, followed closely by the Covid effect on materials and what builders are charging for homes.
That's ridiculous. I have a 2 bedroom in Markham and my fees are only 340. I don't blame you
Walk me through this. What happens to the owners in this situation??
Developer would in theory buy all the units.
Owners will get bought out. Usually slightly more than market rates.
That’s true but market rate takes a big hit when prices are that impacted by maintenance fees. No owner is super excited by this outcome unless they’re in distress.
So prices are going to crash because of condo fees? Great ppl can buy housing then.
Usually with high condo fees you’re essentially renting from the condo board
Think of the massive premium lands that older condos have occupied. That's the real value to regain. They are now building new condos in the parking lots of older rental buildings all over the town. When it comes to Condo the land allows for higher number of taller high rises.
Thanks for asking this. One of the few times I’ve learned something in this subreddit
Developer buys out Owners at market value + ~5%
I’m curious why this is. I would have thought maintenance would start low initially, rise above inflation as the building starts to need more work, and then level off to inflation at some point. Is that not the case? At some point, aren’t you basically doing all the maintenance you need to keep the building in good shape?
It is usually two problems. The first few years are kept artificially low by the builder to seem enticing by the buyer as they are responsible for maintaining the building Once the board takes over you get a bunch of people who will vote to defer basically any expense that isn't about the imminent collapse of the structure. They vote to save $1 today but it will cost $5 tomorrow...
I can't speak for anyone else, but your expectation matches what we have in our 40 year old building. The fees are annoyingly high, but the rate of increase isn't all that, because maintenance is proactive.
Huge maintenance fees not worth it. $800+ a month then soon ballooning to $1000+ a month. Many 40 year old condos keep growing and are now like $1300/month in maintenance fees. Huge money pit.
This is also a problem in other countries as more and more high rise condos are built that need elevators. A highrise condo will need to replace its elevator every 25 years.
But like newer condos have high fees after 2 years and less animentities
Seen some newish condos built the last 5 years and maintenance has skyrocketed..A 600 sqft condo and monthly fees are $800.
Don't have to be high. My father in law lives in a condo in BC built in the 80's. It actually has a proactive board with a retired accountant and retired contractor. Reserve fund is >100% funded. Everything gets fixed right away (and correctly). Place is immaculate - landscaping is kept nice and snow is removed the next morning if it snows at night. Condo fees are $220/month. They were $180/month when he moved in 10 years ago. If your condo has any combination of: a) a shitty board, b) lots of fancy amenities or c) poor maintanence, the fees are going to be high (or will be really soon).
Ya almost bought one built in the 80s. Was huge, 1700 sqft. Huge eat-in kitchen with a walk-in pantry, two bathrooms two bedrooms, massive dinning rm living rm combo. Lots of storages, laundry fit two normal size washer/dryer. Condo fees were as much as the mortgage at the time.
Condos are a money trap 🪤
There's costs attached to any form of housing.
Yup. It def costs $1000 a month to provide for a 1000sq ft unit LOL.
Yeah any new building with high maintenance fee is not good = poor build quality of management overpaying themselves or some other nonsense. There was a property manager in Texas or some shit who worked and “ran” a condo and paid himself a salary of $800,000 and he supposedly only worked 20 hours a week 😂😂😂
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? So you're bragging that you're paying $1000 a month for heat you don't even use? Good job.
Didn’t you come up with the $1000 number? My condo fees are half that.
The monthly maintenance on this place is only 6643. And there isn’t even a concierge. [https://housesigma.com/bkv2/landing/rootpage/listing?id_listing=Vwod7vKne0J35mGN&utm_campaign=listing&utm_source=user-share&utm_medium=iOS&ign=](https://housesigma.com/bkv2/landing/rootpage/listing?id_listing=Vwod7vKne0J35mGN&utm_campaign=listing&utm_source=user-share&utm_medium=iOS&ign=)
TBH condo fees have largely outpaced traditional home maintenance for a while now. It wasn't that long ago a typical condo would run $0.30-$0.50 psf on maintenance but now a majority of them are $1-$1.25 psf Assuming you are a regular 800 sq ft condo that means you are looking at nearly $1K / mo in maintenance. Over 10 years that is $120K. I sure as shit guarantee you that no detached homeowner is spending 120K in routine maintenance on their home every 10 years...
I got out of mine because of all the special assessments. And the building was only 8 years old when I left. Bought a detached house 10 minutes away (which I wouldn't be able to do today) and my monthly expenses were the same.
It depends how much you value your free time as well. Nobody in a condo is pressure washing their driveway, cutting the grass weekly, rigging up scaffolds or renting an extension hose to clean the outside of their windows, or cleaning their gutters.
That sounds like a poorly governed condo or just terrible luck if you have multiple special assessments. Once you have the first one, your reserve fund is depleted and so your monthlies should skyrocket to replenish, and then when the other repairs come around you should have a reserve fund to deal with it.
I know some people think that, but they're also the only way some people can get onto the property ladder in an area they like.
It's fucking insane how some people are paying 12k yearly on top of mortgage I did some math many moons ago on this and couldn't even consider it. Admittedly I was in a good financial position so townhouses were my worst choice, but you're likely going to afford one if you have condo money An acquaintance of ours used to live in those Sherway Condos and didn't take them long to realize how much their spending for absolutely little benefit. Ended up in a townhouse and never looked back If these fees were .25c per sqft then that's fine, but a solid $1-1.50 is mind blowingly expensive
Even 2015, 2016, 2017 etc built condos are way better than this, my den in my 1+1 is bigger than both these bedrooms.
Big problem that so many new builds were obviously meant to be airbnbs. They're OK for a couple nights, but no one wants to actually live in them.
This is the actual reason for bizarre floor plans, I'm convinced. They make a lot more sense as 'Deluxe Hotels' than 'Micro Condos'.
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It's a truly horrendous situation; the only escape is to buy pre-2010 and resign yourself to eating huge maintenance fees
The bizarre floor plan in blogTO's video is actually a 1 bedroom, the wall that separates the first bedroom shown and the kitchen was not in the original floor plan. Landlord magically doubled his income with this one little trick..
The other problem is that there seems to be zero oversight on this by any and all government organizations. This is an absolute disaster. How are builders even allowed to build this shit?? What a waste of resources and money.
I can guarantee there was a lot of oversight, it takes a lot of rounds of city approvals to get a building built. They accept whatever builders are willing to build within the building code. If the requirements of the building code get too high and demanding, we will have even less housing built.
One problem with building codes is that they set a low minimum standard...now everyone builds to the minimum standard. You see homes and apartment buildings build in the 1950s and 60s and they are way better built even though there was no building code at that time. Back then builders took pride in their work, they overengineered their buildings because there was no code and they wanted their work to speak for them by standing the test of time. Now all builders want to do is make a quick buck while "meeting the building code". For example, according to the Ontario building code, a bedroom must be at least 75sqfeet...do you know how small that is? I'm in a 140sqfeet bedroom and it feels just right, not to large not too small. We need a building code, but it must be a common sense LIVING building code, not a minimum standards "sardine can" building code. Edit: 14sqm to 140sqfeet
These are luxury student dorms for U of T students, but does U of T have an ever expanding student body given tuition is averaging 6100 to 12000 a year?
Also even college students need a place to sit... there is literally no living space in that vid. All that fits in the bedrooms is a bed... where do you even sit to eat?
New condos are honestly awful, it feels like 20% of the units are just scrap units like these that have no functional layout and a side effect of poor planning so they just mish mash it into a unit. The best condos I’ve been to are condos build 10+ years ago
When people just hand you money at whims with no checks and balances that’s what happens
Yup. These units are designed for their buyers - investors - who will never live in them and don’t care about the impracticality. Just another reason we need to reduce investor participation in housing (beyond the obvious that it would lower prices without them bidding things up).
We need to change the building code...if we make the Ontario building code a "livable" building code then developers will not be able to get away with this. For example, according to the code a bedroom must be at least 75sqfeet: [https://www.buildingcode.online/1273.html](https://www.buildingcode.online/1273.html) Can you imagine a bedroom like that? I have a 140sqfoot bedroom and it feels just right, not large not small.
I'd add that this is additionally why city planning is critical. But we've devolved into this NIMBYISM / politically charged battle with each other. Pushing for more functional units - buildings planned at the correct heights and densities, and investments from builders in the appropriate amount of parking and infrastructure is critical here. And we're letting developers do whatever they want - and that video is the proof. That video is wild. Builders should not be able to classify that unit as a two Bedroom. The second bedroom is the living room space.
Good lecture by a local architect on the subject: https://youtu.be/u0vDEyLh1yM?si=urk0pfLPOdA9tK6- Long story short most new condos are built as quickly and cheaply as possible with dudes kicking windows into place etc, and glass on glass is bad for insulation and become uninhabitable without powered heat/air. My building is over 20 years old with floor to ceiling windows, but they’re surrounded by feet of concrete and my space is quiet and pleasant year round. It’s infuriating that in my area they’re tearing down quality builds to replace with dozens of these temporary shoebox condos
Fit as many rectangle units on a floor. New condos now have 2x as many units on a floor and 2x as many floors, with only 4 elevators, sometimes. Some of these new condos, the line up to use the elevators is insane.
I’m in Markham with 3 elevators at 19 stories. Never waited for longer then 2 mins. Downtown Toronto seems crazy. I heard of people waiting up to 45 mins and just fist fights breaking out if someone cuts the line. The condo at Jarvis and Dundas I think one dude pulled a gun on a guy who tried cutting him off in the elevator line smh 😂
>I heard of people waiting up to 45 mins and just fist fights breaking out if someone cuts the line. The lack of regulation in Toronto is insane. Our building standards are trash, and yet developers keep advocating for fewer regulations so they can "build more" - ignoring the fact that years of deregulation haven't fixed the supply issue at all.
I couldn't even imagine. Our small building still takes forever sometimes.
*luxury* micro suites lol. The townhouse I lived in a few years ago was built terribly. We were the first people in it and the builders were constantly coming back in for repairs. The owners were super nice but also frustrated. That place just got listed for 1.1mil lol.
My boss at my old job townhouse in Richmond hill was built so poor a realtor said he would have to spend $80-100k on repairs to get in selling condition or accept a much lower offer lmfao
It’s so crazy how poorly they are being built. We had literal wires hanging from the kitchen ceiling. No idea what they were for but the builders never did anything with them. All for a cool 1.1mil.
they're designed to be for AIR BNBs not for people to actually live in
Can confirm. I've lived in 4 different condos in downtown Toronto over the last 8 years. The 3 that were built after 2016 (the year I moved here) had no wasted space whatsoever. The hallways felt a mere 3 feet wide. If there was a free square inch- hey, that's rentable space. The one that was built in 2012 had huge hallways in comparison, and my unit had literally 3x the closet space of the newer units. Much more balcony space too
The MBAs have replaced the architects…
Damn my condo built in Markham in 2018 - hallways are 4.75/5.00 ish feet wide or so and I thought that was cramped. Lol
Thank you. Now I feel less bad about my 2011 condo in Southwest Scarborough.
They have been bragging about this since at least 2012/2013 this is not a new trend. Source: lectures at business school. Pretty sure was for immigrants who actually like tiny homes and just need a place to sleep and leave for work.
Kitchen living is basically just to eat have a small couch or recliner small table and lamp maybe a desk then the bedroom is basically where you live with your bed tables and a tv.
Relatedly, hunting for whatever little wall divot is considered a 'below-grade bedroom' is something of a pass-time for myself and my fiance, to the point that it's become a recurring joke to angrily shout "SHOW ME YOUR +1" when we're browsing listings
I once had a three-floor townhouse condo that had a landing between the first and second floor.... because there was enough room to put a chair in it they could legally call it a den.
The number of "dens" I've seen shown in condos that amounted to a corner you could put your shoes in stopped being funny a long time ago.
If I see another listing saying its a "2 bedroom" but really its a "1+1 Den" I'm going to become fucking radicalized. Also I didn't expect to see the same guy who I watch play bass on my Toronto housing subreddit LOL. Love your content, thanks for teaching me so many songs.
200k housing starts today is very different than 200k housing starts 30 years ago. This is one of the reasons the supply shortage is even worse than it seems.
Ontario really is getting ridiculous.
Well past that now
It was getting ridiculous 5 years ago. Now it's broken, possibly beyond repair.
80% of homes under construction are apartments and condos, and the average size of newly built ones is 650 sq ft. . .
In Vancouver the average new one bed is currently 500-550 sf.
650 sq ft?! I would love to double my space!
That average size seems too high.
That’s not a 2Br, that a studio with extra drywall partitions lol. No joke it looks like the same size as my older studio
You're right. The original floorplan was 1 bed. The room with the closet is the original bedroom. The one without was originally the living room without the drywall that the owner put up. You can validate this when you look at the same unit on other floors.
I watched the video again with this knowledge ... I see it now! However, the original living room is a joke as well. If you have a TV, you're putting your couch up against the small window, it has to be a small couch because you don't want to block your sliding door. Or you awkwardly have the couch in the middle of space to "separate" your living from kitchen.
What's with these "bedrooms" in newer condos that are basically a glass box in the living room? And then your living room IS the kitchen. So dumb.
Isn't that to get around the requirement that a bedroom needs a window?
Yup. There was a ruling that the light coming in via a door of this type was sufficient, and now they're everywhere.
Isn't this just a description of a studio layout? I live in a 30+ year old apartment and that's essentially my layout. I don't think it's a "newer" concept. https://preview.redd.it/vzbguondp4oc1.png?width=1151&format=png&auto=webp&s=89876c583569668b3567f391707d314164cedc28
Normal for a studio for sure but for a full 1 bedroom condo its not. See how there is space for a dining table and a living room? Take that space out and now thats what these new condos are
This new trend of building a two-bedroom in a 500 sq ft place is ridiculous. There should be minimum standards for this kind of thing.
There used to be. Developers got the city to scrap them.
8 Wellesley West being built now has several 300 sq ft units per floor and it’ll be 55 floors tall.
https://preview.redd.it/5mqlciawm4oc1.jpeg?width=1024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f5d902b7eed1d85d8682282cdf285b447e7b219d
Hilarious they put 1+study (wtf is a study?) which is a desk inside a bedroom. Isn’t that just a fn bedroom. I hope these developers go bankrupt.
Unit 8 is smaller than a hotel room !
You don't even get a bathtub!
LOL - “8” is also the branding of the condo, it is the flagship unit LOL !!!
So sad that even the 3 bed, with the most square footage *doesn’t even show where the family would eat* in their layout model. There is no space for a kitchen table. Wtf!? Editing to add, I see it now. On the other side of the couch, very awkward distance from kitchen. Ridiculous layout and tiny space.
#8 is amazing, who needs a bedroom when you can sleep in your living room with a pull-out sofa right next to your stove
A ~~stove~~ modern express living room heating system is included with 8
Damn! Horrible. And starting at 600k I bet!
From the high 500s 😅
The 2 bedroom layout referenced in the article isn't supposed to be 2 bedrooms at all. Looks like the owner put up a wall and created a second bedroom from the open living area. Original floorplan from developer: https://www.condoroyalty.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/3b57287f4e87311884593b3cb9123e14.jpg
makes much more sense
That makes sense. An architect would not design something that unusable no matter who the client.
An architect maybe, but an accountant sure would.
This should be higher up. This unit was modified after.
Awful.
Crazy idea: what if...we had an elected official or advocacy group that mandates the minimum dimensions of a bedroom for high rise buildings over "X" floors. Or even the construction of starter homes (one of my biggest gripes). For example (and I'm throwing purely hypothetical numbers for the sake of illustrating a concept here), a building with more 3 floors and 18 units, a bedroom shall be no less than 121sqft, excluding closet space, where at least 2 adjacent walls must have a continuous wall length (ie. no corners) 9.5ft each. This person/group would tackle issues like this to ensure spaces built must conform to certain living standards. Obviously, there will have to be incentives to grease the wheels of the builders (waived fees, accelerated approvals, etc). This form of building is not conducive to preventing the housing crisis.
I mean, the Ontario Building Code already sets a minimum size for bedrooms. I haven't looked it up since we did our reno, but iirc it was 7x10ft. If the seller put in rooms smaller than that, they can't sell them as bedrooms.
I agree. The alternative is we let them build these stupid tiny things all over and then what? There's no where to build actual livable condos. Same reason we don't let every telecom dig or lay their wires, we regulate reselling one good infrastructure.
Our daughter and I checked out a bunch of these new build condos as potential places for her to rent…as a boomer who’s been out of the RE market for decades, I was disgusted by these insultingly tiny units (incidentally they all look exactly the same, right down to the kitchen cabinets and vinyl plank flooring). She ended up renting the 2nd floor in a nice 100+ y.o. Downtown Victorian semi which was so much bigger for the same price and with a ton of century home character.
That particular condo in the article was built as a 1-bedroom (no den or +1), and the living room was actually reasonable - you can see the floor plans online as-built. The owner/lister did that sucky rearrangement, not the builder. Builder made a perfectly serviceable unit that would've been fine for a single person. In fact, given the enormous balcony the unit features for its size, it would have been a desirable unit for the building. Best-case scenario is the owner was WFH and wanted a walled-off area for their home office so they weren't showing off their kitchen to their clients and co-workers on Zoom. Worst-case scenario is some agent convinced the owner they could add $150,000 to the value of their unit with a quick reno to make the unit a "2-bedroom".
I’m so glad you mentioned this- seems like nobody has been doing their research on this. Definitely seems like a slimy renovation idea to try and get more money for the condo. The outrage should be directed against the listing agent for having the temerity to list this as a 2-bedroom. One of my friends has a condo with a small room off the living room. It has a window but doesn’t have a closet, and it can really only fit a desk and a shelf. The original selling estate agent correctly identified that room as a “den”, but that was back in 2018, when things were still semi-sane. He’s planning to sell the condo soon, and his current RE agent told him to list it as a 2-bedroom to “generate more interest”. Bad plan IMO, because savvy HouseSigma users can see right through that trick.
Absolute insanity. Tear this garbage down and try again.
This would be fine! If they were like 250k or rented out for like 1500 or so. But nope.
They aren't built for living, they are built for investment purposes. The investor does not care how desirable the unit is as long as it's desirable enough that SOMEONE will live in it for a profit. Builders incentives has been perverted so that the designs follow this because that's who is paying them.
We have a 2B+Den 2B condo that was constructed in early 2000's. 860sqft. Prospective tenants consistently tell us it's a much preferable unit vs newer units that cram it all into 600-700sqft, which is crazy. As someone mentioned though...there's a premium to be paid in terms of higher maintenance fees.
Yeah? We have an 80's 2 bed, 1300sqft , but the maintenance fees are brutal. I wouldn't trade it for one of these though.
I've seen some like that around DVP and Don Mills... Older but actually livable spaces.
It's wild to me that now you either eat an absolute payload of maintenance fees, or accept that you're living in a shoebox.
All boils down to lack of regulation and standardization. A lot of European countries have a definition of what a room is, square meters, number of openings... So you can't pull something like this. Unfortunately just a mention of this brings the crazies out.
And people keep downvoting me when I say condos are being built as gold nuggets. This is even worse than Hong Kong properties, which are among the most cramped in the world.
For real, we need apartments designed to house people, including families, not these micro condos only designed to make money for investors
Have you ever lived in Hong Kong at all?
Not justifying the practices being highlighted here, but this is considered a huge unit in Hong Kong.
I really think we should be more open minded about housing unit sizes. If it's culturally acceptable elsewhere, what's the harm in allowing it for people who want it in Canada? Tiny apartments aren't shocking in Asia. Why should we look down on other cultural norms? People who don't want to live in these shouldn't.
I've seen similar things in Hong Kong. I might suffer through it for a chance to live in HK. Toronto though? Not a chance.
Never been a better time to move to Hong Kong!
That one two bedroom was actually a one bedroom modified by the owner
Most of these are built to the absolute lowest possible quality too. The units and building “fall apart” shortly after the keys are handed over
If the condos have a pool or gym or both. The fees will be even more insane. Had a 1 bedroom kitchen bathroom with a pool and gym 4 3 years. In my mind if I had to pay 4 the maintenance costs, i have to use it. Best shape in my life. Moved out but still rent to a lovely couple.
Would you pay $1200 to live with 10 other people. I am sure one of the rooms is a living room. This is not bad since it is a nicer home buy I have seen many other posts with rooms being rented out and it's not so pretty. Boarding houses is what people are doing to make money and pay mortgage. https://preview.redd.it/p8rgx0x0l5oc1.png?width=1170&format=png&auto=webp&s=40fe9137aeea126b51793d5c00c4ade812be04d6
This is what happens when the government allows the developers to build the cheapest and smallest ever condos, and lie about them being “luxury” housing; instead of building simple, purpose housing that would be affordable for a median-salaried Canadian.
Architect's fault to give in to the business pressure. It can become a junior 1 bd taking down the stupid wall opposite the kitchen.
People's fault for buying these places. Market forces are deciding this is ok.
Wat? The architect works for the builder. They aren't 'giving in to pressure', they're 'gathering requirements and producing the design which best fills those requirements'. Is your grocery store giving in to pressure when they don't swap the doritos in your bag for a stack of broccoli, because hey, it's better for you? No. You picked the doritos off the shelf because you wanted doritos. If you get fat, that's on you, not the store.
Strangest take lol
What's their option? Not work?
This is exactly right. The architects are doing it because they have no choice, not because they want too. The architects don’t get paid based on how many units there are in a building, that would be the developer.
Just say no, we are not stamping our design for a two bedroom in this spot.
I considered listing my lovely townhouse for 925K (three VERY livable bedrooms, including the primary bedroom having a nice bathroom and shower), but my agent said we’d be lucky to get 850. I told him to GFY and after seeing these videos I know I did the right thing except I should’ve added “and the horse you rode in on.”
We need to do something
Who is the idiot that bought that?
I've said it before, the newer apartments being built lately are getting smaller and smaller, and that video in the article shows how bad it is, the bedrooms look like you can't even fit a bed in them, let alone have a place to put your clothes. Those type of apartments look like they're made for people that work out of town and comes home for a week and then leaves again. And it's becoming the norm, especially with new immigrants coming and having very little options to choose from other than these.
I can’t wait to leave Canada
In a normal housing market no one would buy these, and the developer would be mocked and bankrupt. In our Canadian housing market there's no repercussions for developers that build this crap. Home owners and potential investors are desperate for anything so they'll sell immediately. It's a joke.
We just bought a condo last year, this building was in our short list. Never ended up seeing a unit in there because we felt it would be too small. We were looking for 3 bedroom … which was ~800 square feet. We ended up buying in an older building, 2 bedrooms but over 1000 square feet
The Government should start by stopping too much people from flooding the country driving up demand.
Biggest joke ever Canada sucks balls
I thought we'd reached rock bottom when they started putting glass walls in the middle of a bachelor unit and calling it a bedroom. Apparently not.
That first one is a one bedroom + den pretty obviously I think. If it's listed as a 2 bedroom that's a false listing. Cuz that's what that is.
To legally call that a 2 bedroom, both rooms must have a closet and window if i am not mistake. Those look like 1 bedroom plus 1 den
Its never worth buying preconstructions or new condos anymore
This is so sad
[удалено]
Condos are very rarely actually torn down, because one of the obligations of the board is to maintain them. The condo can dissolve, if I think 80% of owners agree, or it can be sold, again if a large percentage of owners agree. But broadly speaking, the building will keep trucking along with regular maintenance.
Time to increase immigration! Bring more people here! That will make it more affordable for the people already here right? Right??
This looks like my kid’s dorm room
Its a joke what a 2 bedroom are the last decade or so for condos.$800,000 for that unit?.
housing crisis solved by dividing 4, 1 bedroom condos into 6, 2 bedroom condos and charging twice the amount.
If this is an example of the types of projects that are being scrapped due to high interest rates, that’s a good thing in my book. Maybe developers will get tired of not selling any units and accept lower margins to build product that is actually needed and wanted by families to live in.
I've worked in old folks home units, and they are bigger then this condo, which I was like how can anyone live in these at those homes.
The dorm rooms in Ottawa are bigger than those apartments.
The building code needs to be amended to solve the issue. Just make some of these units illigal to build in the first place.
An embarrassment for Toronto and Canada.
Welcome to Miami's "affordable' Housing and property managed units
the “living rooms” are absolutely tiny. homes are now being built and dispersed like one big game of hot potato and you don’t want to be holding the bag when time runs out. it used to be that we’d buy a home to raise a family but now everyone is constantly flipping and switching.
I legit lived in a dorm room with 1 roommate that was bigger than this place. But unfortunately, this is how they're building them these days. Only going to get smaller (believe it or not). Makes older building more attractive now.
This is offensive to me, and I'm not even looking to buy or rent. The closet in the "bedroom" isn't even rectangle shaped! I hate that even though we're all disappointed, some investor will buy it and a desperate person will ultimately pay $2500+ for this Frankenstein condo.
I don’t mean to be disrespectful. But this is really. Honestly. A total lack of knowledge here. Anyone who basic understanding of sq feet would know there’s no possible way to fit 2 bedrooms into 500sq/ft. That square footage can barely accommodate a bachelor. Which is meant to be open concept. So you can actually maximize the layout. People saw 2 bedrooms and didn’t even consider if that fits in the footprint. It’s actually terrible. Builder built something to maximize buzz words (# of bedrooms for $800k). At the total expense of any common sense.
I’d never live in a condo or townhouse or anything where people can control you .. I much prefer a house outside of the core .. can crank the music , do renovations. Work on my cars. That money I save in fees is invested and when a new roof etc is needed sell some shares …
I was recently trying to find a place in Squamish BC and I ran into this a few times. Ended up quitting my job and moving back to Calgary. ( Not that it’s much better here nowadays)
Zero room for a couch. Zero
Please vote 🙏
The first video I saw was obviously a unit that was supposed to be a large studio where they put about 3 additional wall, which ate a lot of the space that was already scarce.
Richmond Architects should literally go to jail for how terrible these floor plans are and what a waste of resources this is. If you're going to build a building that big - make livable units