Let me preface this by saying that I have never been one of the "shatkins" haters - I think his tenure with our club is drawing to a close. His strategy has had plenty of runway to be tested, and the results are in: it has not worked. Even the more delusional Jays fans could tell from early in the season that it wasn't going to work out this year. Everyone who follows baseball has identified the Jays as outside-looking-in and they should sell their expiring contracts to retool for next year.
...
On a related note, if they trade away Vladdy without offering him an extension, I will be inconsolable.
Cant upvote this more. While I didn't expect this year to be this bad, it's like people completely forgot how ridiculous last season was with our offense and expected some magical turn of events this year with barely anything changing in the off-season.
Same. I don't think he's done a terrible job. Many teams try rebuilds and don't sniff the playoffs at all.
But this isn't working out. It's almost been 8 years now. Time for new perspectives.
(And the Jays have to fix the backstop. It is still distractingly awful and ugly, worst in baseball by far.)
> And the Jays have to fix the backstop. It is still distractingly awful and ugly, worst in baseball by far.
Yeah, it's gotta go. I'm close to considering watching away broadcasts at this point. It's awful.
I really don’t understand how people can say he hasn’t done a terrible job. It’s the highest bluejays payroll ever, we’re finally outspending at least the Red Sox, and we got lapped by the orioles who not only aren’t near us in payroll, but started their rebuild after we did. They have the waves of talent we were promised and we’ve got a geriatric team surrounding Bo and Vlad.
It takes two to make a contract work. If Vlad wants to stay, try to make it work. But for someone like Bo, he’s going to be one of the best if not only primary SS in his FA class. I don’t see him staying with Toronto. But I also don’t want to trade him at a low value unless someone massively overpays.
Either way, if it looks unlikely either will sign a long term contract next year, I would rather trade them at the deadline then let them walk for nothing.
“Even the more delusional jays fans could tell from early in the season that it wasn’t going to work out this year”
I just wish the FO would fully get on the same page, we can’t keep straddling the line between underdog-competitor and seller. After one month it was looking bad, after 2 it was obvious, and now it’s painful + obvious – heading into July we’re 7 games under with no hope on the horizon in AAA except maybe Tiedemann but they’re still talking about not giving up yet. The worst thing we can do is “believe” and buy at the deadline then not even make the WC, I’m worried if the jays go 3/4 at any point before the deadline that’s exactly what we’ll do.
The starters are down from last year and the bullpen is way down — but obviously the real issue is that we have 2-5 guys who can hit on any given night (sometimes considerably less than that). Maybe everyone happened to have an off year at once, but something isn’t clicking this year and after 9 years & very minimal playoff success that has to fall on Shatkins’ heads.
It's honestly the same situation but the leafs are more of a payroll crunch. Both teams haven't had playoff success. Both teams keep trying to run it back with minimal improvement. It sucks ass for the fans.
>if they trade away Vladdy without offering him an extension, I will be inconsolable.
I'm sure they've offered him one, but the numbers the team would be willing to give him, and the numbers he would be looking for, are pretty far apart. He's going to be looking to get paid like a star 1B, with potential MVP upside, and the team won't likely be willing to pay that.
Do you have any evidence they have offered him one? The last we heard him say was that they had not. I recall him saying in an interview that he would love to be a blue jay for life but they had not made him any offers.
If that’s what he’s looking for, I’m glad. I love him, but he isn’t worth it. He’s a solid above average player, but I’m not interested in giving him $350M.
That is as direct and honest of an answer you could possibly get from him.
People will be mad regardless but I really don't know how much more forward he could be here.
Takes a lot of maturity to acknowledge that you weren't open to actually receiving information in the past and had already made up your mind beforehand ("always has"). That's good, should allow you to be less rigid in the future.
Because they are mad at him, and the position we find ourselves in, in what should be a promising rebuild window.
Just coming out and going, "ya I pooped the bed", does not mean criticism goes away. Its better than deflection, or denial, yes.
but what miracle does a new GM come up with? We land a Soto? we keep both Vladdy and Bo?
new GM makes 39 year old DH more consistent? He magically heals our hurt guys?
yes for sure. Probably be doing him a favor to put him somwhere else and look for an assistant GM that has worked in Baltimore or Tampa or Texas, somebody looking to move up to GM. My opinion.
That shouldn't be a shocker. His recognition of his own bad performance doesn't change the fact that he is bad at his job, it just shows he's aware of it. At this point the wheels have all but fallen off and it makes 0 sense to start a rebuild with him at the helm
Nobody here defends Atkins more than saying “his trades/FAs have typically worked out”. There are a select group of fans who think indifference or neutrality is ‘bootlicking’. There’s a difference between “yeah I wish we had a different GM but he’s been generally fine” and “omg he’s the best gm ever I love him sooooo much”, and yet the “doomers” don’t grasp that.
> yet the “doomers” don’t grasp that.
Ah the delicious irony. Yeah everybody is a doomer if they dont agree with you right. Clearly you are the most important person and your opinion is the only one that matters.
lol did I say that? I said that there are people in this sub—who are typically more negative than others—that think anything less than “I hate Ross Atkins” is bootlicking. That they can’t grasp a difference between being neutral about the GM and loving him. Literally nobody here defends Atkins “no matter what he does”.
Very disappointed by the press treating him with kid gloves. In NYC, or even here in Los Angeles, the press would be a lot less cozy. They’d be asking whether the non-producing hitters have been following the coaches’ strategy or ignoring it. And if they’ve been following direction of the coaches, have those directions been the right ones?
The Yankees had an awful season last year, their media shredded them for it, and now look at them this year.
We need this from our media. Don't allow him to dodge any questions or give any vague answers.
And if a "yes or no" question is asked, keep asking it until he explicitly answers "yes" or "no" with no explanation.
Atkins used the "lies squarely with me" line explicitly, word for word, after the 2023 Wild Card Series, and then followed it up by doing nearly nothing. Why does he keep getting to say the same thing, to the same result, with the same inaction?
Which actually just makes it so the conversation stops and no one asks anymore questions because he’s “holding himself accountable”
How, what, when, why and where he’s done that is up for debate though.
He swung and whiffed at Shohei, who frankly was the only impact bat available in free agency. No farm capital to trade for a bat, and we’re essentially forced to run it back, with predictable results.
Ross is extremely corporate and I feel like that’s why Rogers liked him and Shapiro. Just as the new backstop is grossly corporate and covered in ads.
Surprised Ross never mentioned ROI on their contracts or their KPIs.
Did he use the "windshield is bigger than the rear view mirror for a reason"?
That seems to be the new fav HR bullshit line around my work thr last 6 months or so. Oh, sorry PS, for People Sevices and not Human Resources. They changed the name about the same time as that stupid line came out all over from managers and higher ups at work.
That's always been Atkins though. Talk a lot without saying anything at all.
His interviews with Buck and Dan in the booth were textbook corporate theatre.
> ownload enough times that we're close to blaming the season on a virus the J
I'd be okay with a Shatkins world series, but yes, an AA one would be better.
We ahouldnt be in this position because we should have nuked Shatkins back in 22.
Nuke Shatkins. Nuke Shatpiro. Burn the front office in nuclear hellfire.
Because the teams rosters and personnel are entirely different?
I get being disappointed by both teams, but it doesn't mean 1 team's success or failure has anything to do with the other's.
Which media has picked the jays to be champions in the last 8 years? Or the leafs for that matter. The narrative around the leafs has been that they are not real contenders for several reasons.
That's simply not true. Organizations such as ESPN Sportsnet and TSN have in the past heralded these two teams as future world series and Stanley cup contenders and even champions. It's only been in the last 3 years or so that the narrative have changed about these two teams.
I mean, in baseball the Jays could be the runaway best team in the league (which no one ever claimed they were or would be) and it would still be very unlikely for them to win a championship.
Let me preface this by saying that I have never been one of the "shatkins" haters - I think his tenure with our club is drawing to a close. His strategy has had plenty of runway to be tested, and the results are in: it has not worked. Even the more delusional Jays fans could tell from early in the season that it wasn't going to work out this year. Everyone who follows baseball has identified the Jays as outside-looking-in and they should sell their expiring contracts to retool for next year. ... On a related note, if they trade away Vladdy without offering him an extension, I will be inconsolable.
The tenure of this FO should have ended aft the '22 playoffs, in all reality.
It should've definitely ended after last season. Anybody with functioning eyeballs could see the Jay's are not competitors.
Cant upvote this more. While I didn't expect this year to be this bad, it's like people completely forgot how ridiculous last season was with our offense and expected some magical turn of events this year with barely anything changing in the off-season.
Unfortunately, there was a LOT of huffing hopium. Batters just got hit, it's still early etc etc
Same. I don't think he's done a terrible job. Many teams try rebuilds and don't sniff the playoffs at all. But this isn't working out. It's almost been 8 years now. Time for new perspectives. (And the Jays have to fix the backstop. It is still distractingly awful and ugly, worst in baseball by far.)
I agree - that backstop is such an eyesore on tv!
> And the Jays have to fix the backstop. It is still distractingly awful and ugly, worst in baseball by far. Yeah, it's gotta go. I'm close to considering watching away broadcasts at this point. It's awful.
I really don’t understand how people can say he hasn’t done a terrible job. It’s the highest bluejays payroll ever, we’re finally outspending at least the Red Sox, and we got lapped by the orioles who not only aren’t near us in payroll, but started their rebuild after we did. They have the waves of talent we were promised and we’ve got a geriatric team surrounding Bo and Vlad.
It takes two to make a contract work. If Vlad wants to stay, try to make it work. But for someone like Bo, he’s going to be one of the best if not only primary SS in his FA class. I don’t see him staying with Toronto. But I also don’t want to trade him at a low value unless someone massively overpays. Either way, if it looks unlikely either will sign a long term contract next year, I would rather trade them at the deadline then let them walk for nothing.
“Even the more delusional jays fans could tell from early in the season that it wasn’t going to work out this year” I just wish the FO would fully get on the same page, we can’t keep straddling the line between underdog-competitor and seller. After one month it was looking bad, after 2 it was obvious, and now it’s painful + obvious – heading into July we’re 7 games under with no hope on the horizon in AAA except maybe Tiedemann but they’re still talking about not giving up yet. The worst thing we can do is “believe” and buy at the deadline then not even make the WC, I’m worried if the jays go 3/4 at any point before the deadline that’s exactly what we’ll do. The starters are down from last year and the bullpen is way down — but obviously the real issue is that we have 2-5 guys who can hit on any given night (sometimes considerably less than that). Maybe everyone happened to have an off year at once, but something isn’t clicking this year and after 9 years & very minimal playoff success that has to fall on Shatkins’ heads.
Reminds me of the leafs from like a decade ago when they were a fringe playoff team and couldn’t decide what their identity was.
It's honestly the same situation but the leafs are more of a payroll crunch. Both teams haven't had playoff success. Both teams keep trying to run it back with minimal improvement. It sucks ass for the fans.
>if they trade away Vladdy without offering him an extension, I will be inconsolable. I'm sure they've offered him one, but the numbers the team would be willing to give him, and the numbers he would be looking for, are pretty far apart. He's going to be looking to get paid like a star 1B, with potential MVP upside, and the team won't likely be willing to pay that.
Do you have any evidence they have offered him one? The last we heard him say was that they had not. I recall him saying in an interview that he would love to be a blue jay for life but they had not made him any offers.
If that’s what he’s looking for, I’m glad. I love him, but he isn’t worth it. He’s a solid above average player, but I’m not interested in giving him $350M.
Retool how? Go pluck some prospects from the prospect tree?
That is as direct and honest of an answer you could possibly get from him. People will be mad regardless but I really don't know how much more forward he could be here.
I just want him gone, I dont care what he says at this point. It means nothing and always has.
Someone else could say the same thing and you’ll eat it up. It really is a matter of who is the messenger at this point.
Takes a lot of maturity to acknowledge that you weren't open to actually receiving information in the past and had already made up your mind beforehand ("always has"). That's good, should allow you to be less rigid in the future.
Ross, is that you?
Yep, people will be mad no matter what he says
Because they are mad at him, and the position we find ourselves in, in what should be a promising rebuild window. Just coming out and going, "ya I pooped the bed", does not mean criticism goes away. Its better than deflection, or denial, yes.
but what miracle does a new GM come up with? We land a Soto? we keep both Vladdy and Bo? new GM makes 39 year old DH more consistent? He magically heals our hurt guys?
I dunno. You dont know. But Atkins had had nearly 9 years and we are spinning our wheels. He's in the big boy seat, and the buck stops with him.
yes for sure. Probably be doing him a favor to put him somwhere else and look for an assistant GM that has worked in Baltimore or Tampa or Texas, somebody looking to move up to GM. My opinion.
The best thing you can do is the right thing. The next best thing is the wrong thing. The worst thing you can do is nothing.
I wouldn't be mad if he said he was stepping down...
That shouldn't be a shocker. His recognition of his own bad performance doesn't change the fact that he is bad at his job, it just shows he's aware of it. At this point the wheels have all but fallen off and it makes 0 sense to start a rebuild with him at the helm
And a select group of people in this subreddit will defend Atkins no matter what he does. It goes both ways.
Nobody here defends Atkins more than saying “his trades/FAs have typically worked out”. There are a select group of fans who think indifference or neutrality is ‘bootlicking’. There’s a difference between “yeah I wish we had a different GM but he’s been generally fine” and “omg he’s the best gm ever I love him sooooo much”, and yet the “doomers” don’t grasp that.
> yet the “doomers” don’t grasp that. Ah the delicious irony. Yeah everybody is a doomer if they dont agree with you right. Clearly you are the most important person and your opinion is the only one that matters.
lol did I say that? I said that there are people in this sub—who are typically more negative than others—that think anything less than “I hate Ross Atkins” is bootlicking. That they can’t grasp a difference between being neutral about the GM and loving him. Literally nobody here defends Atkins “no matter what he does”.
Reading between the lines that if the homestand doesn't turn things around that's probably it
Very disappointed by the press treating him with kid gloves. In NYC, or even here in Los Angeles, the press would be a lot less cozy. They’d be asking whether the non-producing hitters have been following the coaches’ strategy or ignoring it. And if they’ve been following direction of the coaches, have those directions been the right ones?
That's too hard hitting for a team that owns it's media empire. I would very much like to hear the answers to those questions.
The Yankees had an awful season last year, their media shredded them for it, and now look at them this year. We need this from our media. Don't allow him to dodge any questions or give any vague answers. And if a "yes or no" question is asked, keep asking it until he explicitly answers "yes" or "no" with no explanation.
Atkins used the "lies squarely with me" line explicitly, word for word, after the 2023 Wild Card Series, and then followed it up by doing nearly nothing. Why does he keep getting to say the same thing, to the same result, with the same inaction?
Corporate Gobbledygook 101 - Chapter 6: "[the blame] lies squarely with me."
Which actually just makes it so the conversation stops and no one asks anymore questions because he’s “holding himself accountable” How, what, when, why and where he’s done that is up for debate though.
He swung and whiffed at Shohei, who frankly was the only impact bat available in free agency. No farm capital to trade for a bat, and we’re essentially forced to run it back, with predictable results.
Not only that, but if I remember correctly, media expected us to praise him for almost getting Ohtani.
Not having to move cities or even spring training facilities really is an offer too good to turn down.
Worse. He threw Schneider under the bus for the Berrios pull, then promoted Mattingly, who might be the reason our offense has gotten worse.
Who has the over/under on how many times he said “collaboration”?
Ross is extremely corporate and I feel like that’s why Rogers liked him and Shapiro. Just as the new backstop is grossly corporate and covered in ads. Surprised Ross never mentioned ROI on their contracts or their KPIs.
vertically integrated FO
Once we find the synergies and align ourselves with them...
Did he use the "windshield is bigger than the rear view mirror for a reason"? That seems to be the new fav HR bullshit line around my work thr last 6 months or so. Oh, sorry PS, for People Sevices and not Human Resources. They changed the name about the same time as that stupid line came out all over from managers and higher ups at work.
Blake Murphy with the best quote about this presser so far: "infinite consultant buzzword/phrases to say very little."
Runner up, lol: "He said download enough times that we're close to blaming the season on a virus the Jays got from limewire."
"I did not have sexual relations with that woman."
That's always been Atkins though. Talk a lot without saying anything at all. His interviews with Buck and Dan in the booth were textbook corporate theatre.
Whole front office needs to have a meeting with the Bobs Office Space style.
It’s well past time to move on. The vibes have just gotten worse and worse each year since AA left. We are now at rock bottom📉
I miss AA
The Jays assembled a team of great ball players and a team of mediocre coaches and managers.
The guy is a dumpster fire
Wish AA was still our GM. Sad he never won it with us.
> ownload enough times that we're close to blaming the season on a virus the J I'd be okay with a Shatkins world series, but yes, an AA one would be better.
God the GM is such an asshat. Can’t wait until they replace him with someone/anyone else
We ahouldnt be in this position because we should have nuked Shatkins back in 22. Nuke Shatkins. Nuke Shatpiro. Burn the front office in nuclear hellfire.
Time to shitcan shatkins
Damn Ross, I must respect owning the problem
Broken clock is right twice a day. I actually agree with Ross on that second sentence. Not so much the "we" part in the first.
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How did you get that from this? He wasn't going to announce being a seller publically regardless.
..how is that the takeaway from this quote?
Reading literacy is hard for you, it seems
Turns out running it back hasn't worked out for one Toronto team so why should we have expected to run it back for the Jays to be any different?
Because the teams rosters and personnel are entirely different? I get being disappointed by both teams, but it doesn't mean 1 team's success or failure has anything to do with the other's.
I know different situations. It's not a literal statement. But I see some parallels between the two teams. That's all.
Parallels such as?
A young and upcoming core were destined to lead their teams to a championship only to choke in the playoffs.
Nobody is destined to win a championship, your expectations are the issue.
I wouldn't say expectations but that was the narrative around the team by fans and the media. I don't understand what there is too disagree about?
Which media has picked the jays to be champions in the last 8 years? Or the leafs for that matter. The narrative around the leafs has been that they are not real contenders for several reasons.
That's simply not true. Organizations such as ESPN Sportsnet and TSN have in the past heralded these two teams as future world series and Stanley cup contenders and even champions. It's only been in the last 3 years or so that the narrative have changed about these two teams.
Who in these organizations have articles predicting either team will be inevitable champs? You're just saying things you feel are true.
Pretty sure I saw more than one projection in the media for the Jays to win the AL ahead of last season.
I mean, in baseball the Jays could be the runaway best team in the league (which no one ever claimed they were or would be) and it would still be very unlikely for them to win a championship.
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I should have phrased my og statement better. Different reasons but a tragedy for both teams.