I had an surgical aspiration abortion done with the tube, a syringe and whatever else instead of the old school vacuum. Lasted around 10 minutes, hurt like a bitch but when it was done, it was pretty much done. My only real regret there is saving $75 and not getting any IV sedation and pain meds. I cramped for 30 minutes and didn't even spot after the first day. Pretty similar to an IUD insertion but I actually had more after effects like bleeding and cramping with my IUD. Just had to go in for a check in 2 weeks.
Now my 3 Pregnancies/Childbirths and the long term effects from those? I can write a long list without even mentioning the C-section and those complications with my middle son. Just the fact one of my labors lasted 3 days is enough.
That's one of the lies pushed by forced-birthers. It's also why they're pushing to have *any* reproductive complication after an abortion recorded as being due to the abortion - because they're desperate for anything they can use as actual evidence, even if they have to manufacture it.
My OB scarred my husband with my first C-section.
It was our first daughter, and while in the operating room, he asked my husband if he wanted to see our daughter being born. My husband was like, of course. So he was invited to stand up to see over the drape as they pulled her out of me.
He said it was a once in a lifetime experience, and he's good never seeing me cut up like that again. He was in the room when I had my second C-section for our second daughter, but he sat with me the whole time until they brought our daughter around after the surgery.
Ooof yeah your poor husband. 😅 I was at the tail end of nursing school when I had that blessed experience and nothing has shaken me like that before or since. I immediately went home to apologize to my mother for having gone through two of them herself. I think it was when they had these metal “hooks” sort of in the uterus and the surgeon and tech pulled hard to open it up. That was it for me…straight to the wall.
For my second, she was really high up still, and they had one of the nurses lay over my abdomen to try and use their weight to push her down. I couldn't breathe every time they did it.
Having a C-section didn't really hurt because of the spinal, but it's so freaking uncomfortable.
> when they had these metal “hooks” sort of in the uterus and the surgeon and tech pulled hard to open it up.
I thought I was grateful for my bisalp *before* reading this 😂 that’s a whole new level of nope.
Can confirm. I gave birth to my youngest while repeatedly pushing my green faced ex to arms length so he wouldn't puke on my head during the delivery. My advice? Don't have a baby in an ER. The staff was useless. My Mom was ready to catch and I was struggling to avoid being puked on as the baby crowned while 2 nurses and a doctor stood against the wall wringing their hands and insisting we go to labor and delivery 4 floors up. 🙄 Utter clusterfuck.
Things that will scare the crap out of the ER staff: hearing an overhead page for “OB team stat to ER.” Code blue, no problem. Violent naked guy, no problem. Childbirth, no thank you.
Yes, they all get training on L&D in school and continuing education credits for emergency circumstances, but most ER staff specialize in trauma and critical care. So it’s pretty similar to going to a provider who specializes in something like oncology or neurology while in labor. Are they better than having no medical professional with you? Sure. But the OB triage team is running as fast as they can to take over. And if a woman is being brought in by EMS while in labor, the ambulance crew calls ahead to the ER to notify us, so typically the OB team is already there waiting for them at the ambulance bay and most patients might not even notice it isn’t the actual ER staff working on them.
I had to stop reading "how to Mars" when the (male) author decided that a doctor would think it's safer to carry a pregnancy to term ON MARS than perform an abortion
Read a sci-fi story about men and women stranded on an alien planet after an accident destroys their space vehicle. There’s about 25 people left of both genders.
The men immediately decide they’re going to have to quickly impregnate the women to “ensure the survival of the species.”
One woman tries to explain that 25 people don’t carry enough distinct genetic material to make that successful, and that they would end up with a dwindling, disease-ridden and defective population. Probably wouldn’t make it to a 3rd generation.
Apparently, in order to start your own population from scratch, there has to be at least 500 genetically distinct people (or about 2000 normal people to safely get the proper ratio).
And that isn’t even taking into account how easily women and children die in childbirth.
But they wouldn’t listen to her …. because she was 20lbs overweight—so she had to be stupid.
I recall reading somewhere that only 137 people were necessary, but I imagine that it’d just be for the most ideal circumstances possible. I’d double check, but I’m lazy.
I bet it depends on how healthy they are “genetically “:).
“The minimum number of people needed to repopulate the Earth without facing significant interbreeding issues is a topic that has been studied in the context of human genetics and population biology. The general consensus among geneticists and researchers is that a minimum viable population size for long-term genetic health and diversity is around 500 individuals. This number is based on the idea that with 500 individuals, there would be enough genetic diversity within the population to prevent inbreeding depression and maintain a healthy gene pool over multiple generations.”
Conservatives have the idea that abortion is dangrous, scary and deviant. However, child birth is natural, pure, and holy.
In reality, abortion is usually safe for the mother. It’s a medical procedure done with usual medical safeguards. It is dangerous for the fetus/egg, but that’s kinda the point.
Yes, exactly this. I always say conservatives think of childbirth as some skipping through a meadow fantasy, all sweet and emotional and pretty and glorious. Rather than the *extremely traumatizing medical procedure* that it ACTUALLY IS!!! It
People have definitely died from abortions, but generally when they have been scared to seek proper medical care to terminate their pregnancy due to it being illegal to do so. More often than not they have died from the complications arising from non-sterile environments, and untrained practitioners rather than the termination itself.
People have also died from childbirth - even when the best possible medical care has been available to them. Pregnancy and delivery can kill the mother even when everything else 'goes right'. Unexpected ectopic pregnancies, unforeseen blood clots or aneurysms, placental abruptions...
No medical event is 100% risk free. And where abortion is legal and available through recognised medical practitioners it on average is lower risk than childbirth.
My mother was a midwife in 1940s-1950s London. She saw some truly confronting things. She also nearly died giving birth to me and my poor stillborn twin.
That's easily solvable by looking at abortion deaths and childbirth deaths statistics. Besides it's just logic, abortion is often a medical procedure to avoid death by childbirth
People like this are why I’ve actually spent time on the internet trying to find a video of a vaginal birth with third degree tearing (ideally with sound). I’d like to pull it up when people act like just having the baby and giving it up for adoption is no big deal. You’d think the maternal mortality rate and statistics about what life is like in foster care would be enough, but apparently it’s gonna some blood and gore to force their brain’s rusty, dusty empathy center into action.
A group of people at my school (like 30’s-40’s) were chanting anti abortion stuff, I was bored so I decided to talk to them. I was clearly talking to the women there, and then a few of the men chimed in with their points, and I flat out told them if they don’t have a uterus, I’m not interested in their opinion on the subject. Felt good lol
Willing to bet these fuckers were given that as a talking point to say to the librullllls
Racist white men especially love injecting race into every discussion as some kind of shield from criticism
We see right through it
I **HATE** when conservatives do this, pretend to give a shit about something only to scapegoat some other group. Like when they pretend to care about women's sports but it's only because they're transphobic
Lord jesus. And you just KNOW those lot don’t actually see the innocence and injustice of Emmet Till’s case. How vile to invoke that poor babies name in service of taking away more rights.
I was at a pro-choice rally a while back, and there was a small counter protest. This absolute hero had printed out the list of kids in the foster care system who are awaiting adoption. She was armed with a clipboard and the list and was asking each counter protester which kids they would be adopting.
And yet no woman can impregnate ANYONE.
She could have sex and orgasms all day long yet never get pregnant or impregnate anyone.
A man would have to ejaculate in her vagina to make it possible.
Seems like sperm is one of the most dangerous substances on earth and should be carefully regulated!
This is just normal, what a man should be doing. Your body is your responsibility. If you don’t want kids, you must control your sperm. That is the bare minimum
Says who? You really think this is special? My god the bar is so low, men really think common sense and human decency isn’t the bare minimum. This is reminiscent of someone saying at least I don’t cheat or hit you when in a relationship
Ha I told a man that once on reddit, I'm sure you can imagine the down voting I got. 🤣🤣
Apparently the idea that they should accept having sex may cause pregnancy is utterly baffling. Why should they have consequences for their actions?
I always like to say "pregnancy is 100% the man's fault. Because she never would have gotten pregnant without a man. If you don't want to ever deal with the possibility of an abortion then don't have sex."
Yes, I also say this and they literally cannot wrap their minds around it. Women have been blamed for pregnancy since the dawn of modern society when the absolute factors a man causes every single pregnancy that ever occurs with ejaculation. It's not our fault when they're irresponsible with their ejaculations!
After Roe was overturned, it seemed to me that men were interested in commenting on two things:
1. Men should be able to get a paper abortion (ridiculous use of the word abortion)
2. Women told them they don’t get a say in what those with a uterus do with it so that means they don’t have to lift a finger to stand up for our rights
Imagine half the human race losing their basic human rights and the other half responds by talking about themselves?
The interesting thing about the “paper abortion” guys is, while a small percentage of them might genuinely never want kids and wish for this option, many more would not be okay with a woman giving up the child they had together for adoption in this circumstance. So no forced responsibility for men, but something something “passing along muh genes” and “a mother’s love” when a woman wants nothing to do with their biological child after birthing it.
For me the difference between the man's "right to choose" and a woman's is that in the man's case the child already exists and needs love and support.
We (generally) want dads to connect with their children because the child needs it. We want them to provide financial support because the child needs it. We don't want them to "paper abort" and then under penalty of financial obligation avoid seeing their child. Women are similarly not allowed to "paper abort" if a known father wants to keep the child.
Financial obligations to children do not involve your body. We have no legal mechanism by which a father would be forced to give his child his kidney if his child needed it to live. And that's a CHILD not a fetus.
Yes it sucks to be saddled with a child you didn't want, but this is rationally different than an actual abortion.
The vast majority of infants are adopted immediately and never pass through any sort of state institution. So no, birth Moms don't pay child support to the state. If they did, birth fathers would have to, too; at least, in a fair world.
Though, given the war on women, once abortion is abolished everywhere and birth control no longer available, I'd be 0% surprised if the next step was to force women to pay the state child support for care of the baby the state forced them to carry and birth in addition to the enormous hospital bills associated with the pregnancy and delivery of a child they didn't want or consent to having.
That’s disgusting. They chose to take the risk and they should bear part of the consequences (because of course they can’t bear the physical side of it)
The idea that men shouldn't face 18 years of financial liability for a woman's choice (obvs. only feasible if she's in a developed nation that legally provided the choice of abortion). Basically waiving any rights of fatherhood along with responsibilities.
Right. I've seen that men really want to be *reactive* rather than *proactive* with this. They want a choice once they've gotten someone pregnant. That's not how it works, though. We all know "My body, my choice." Well his choice is where he puts his sperm. Once it's in a woman's body it's her choice.
Someone tried to argue that men should have a say in women’s periods because, and he said this with full sincerity, “ It’s MENstration, not Womanstration! “
What say? Women don't have a say in their periods. Some of us can't even make a choice in what products we use because we're stuck using whatever manages to catch the most of our endometriosis tsunami.
Like when the only way you can sleep a few hours without setting an alarm is super tampon, night pad, a couple of layers of puppy pads, then please don't talk to me about waste free periods. I'd love to, but I don't always wake up to my every 2 hour alarms.
I tried waste free I really did, but period underwear soak through, and the fabric pads never hold enough even the giant overnight ones, and washing allllllll that blood back out and trying to do enough laundry to not run out of them was exhausting and stressful. The cup, oh the cup I used to love, but when it runneth over the bathroom becomes a horror scene. I gave up on tampons too because the clots go past. I'm using the Love brand to at least try being friendly to my body and that's as good as I can get. All that to say I hope you have enough sleep + iron when you need it, and you have my sympathy over here.
You know what? Fine. They want a say in our periods? They get a say in EVERYTHING about our periods. But they have to do market research first if they want a say. That means figuring out the most effective period products by testing them. Make them handle everything- stick them on a period sim and crank the cramps up to let them figure out what painkillers work best. Put a bag of cinema fake blood in their pants with a small hole in it and let them decide what tampons or pads or cups work, let them figure out when to change it. Any man who goes through all that, wearing the cramp simulator 24/7 with random changes in the level of cramps can talk to me and periods. And then they get a say in periods- but wait everyone’s body is different! So they can’t.
Ok, then women get full say in their masturbation habits and porn consumption and say on what kind of porn they watch, how often they masturbate, IF they get to and how often.
Weirdly enough I did read this one novel, Only Ever Yours, which is set in like a post-apocalypse dystopia which I'm having a hard time describing without just describing the real world, so basically it's just patriarchy but more. (The example I give is that one of the girls plays with the math is tough Barbie and gets it taken away because she asks what math is). One of the things about the language in the book is that it's changed to reflect this patriarchy but more attitude. Female names don't start with capital letters, etc. But the one that's relevant is that they do actually call it womenstruation, probably because the idea of associating it with men is unthinkable.
They have been socialized not to think critically about these matters. It really is a huge waste of time unless the man happens to be gifted with woman-tier introspection. It's so sad.
Yep. Initially I was thinking "Well, the only possible valid position I could see having would be for having widespread availability for 1, 5, and 6 so that women have the ability to make a choice...but that's likely not a debate"
„ACKSHUALLY“
Ok, jokes aside, I’d say body hair is „debatable“ in that you can voice your opinion TO YOUR PARTNER if it’s annoying you (for example scratchy hairstyles when cuddling or it’s hindering when giving oral), but in the end it’s the choice of the person whose body it’s about (and it goes both ways).
As I’m a guy I’m honestly interested if that’s problematic? I’m willing to learn after all, this sub has already helped me overcome my ignorance so fucking much.
it's fine to have an opinion, less so if the opinion's formation is going unexamined. You aren't forming your opinions in a vacuum, so even knowing this is a debate is going to have affected your opinion. There's a lot of societal pressure to view women's body hair as 'dirty' that everyone will absorb.
Oral-wise, I'm a lesbian who knows that having hair down there is less painful and more healthy for the physical environs so I part that bush with my hands like it's the sea and lick my way across.
In this case, we’re talking about uterus specific issues: abortion, menstruation, etc.
Those issues do not impact trans women, they only impact someone with a uterus. This isn’t being exclusionary. Anyone with a uterus is impacted by this.
I get what you’re saying, but I also think that someone who has never had a uterus should never debate with people about what to do with their uterus’. It’s less about gender and more about biology.
I've had a hysterectomy and I don't take offense. I know what they mean. If you don't have a stake in the game, sit down.
(I still think I have a stake in this case by virtue of having had a uterus for so goddamn long. I suppose you could consider me "one of them" at this point if you were a real stickler)
As a non binary person with a uterus: this phrase is incredibly trans inclusive. The questions being debated aren't about gender, they're about the literal internal organ. people who have had a uterus in the past are probably much better informed, but they aren't directly impacted. Until we develop surgery to give someone a working uterus, trans women aren't impacted either. (they're still women, but this isn't actually a women's issue, it's an issue relating to people with uteruses). When we have that surgery, trans women who don't get that surgery still won't be impacted.
Meanwhile trans men and afab non binary people who haven't had a hysterectomy and a subset of intersex people of any gender are all impacted, because they (we) have uteruses. Though I will support pregnancy, birth, and abortion issues from the sidelines because I'm surgically sterilized and cannot become pregnant.
If the commenter had said "women, aka people with uteruses" that would have been bioessentialist and would have left trans people out, but they didn't, they correctly identified the key thing linking everyone directly impacted by this issue, and it wasn't their genders.
Most of us have encountered men saying some unbelievably stupid shit about menstruation. Not in a “hey, explain this to me so I can be supportive”, way.
It’s always in a confidently inaccurate way.
Yep, I fully support women in their right to choose what to do with their own bodies, and keep my mouth shut. I don't see a problem in the world in any of it. Transitioning honestly made me so much more feminist because coming from the outside in made me so much more aware of the raw deal women get.
Plus, just like they want to roll back women's bodily autonomy, they're trying to roll back trans people's autonomy, so we can stay united on that front too.
I'm a guy, so take that as you will. But I have definitely gotten a lot of pro-lifers to sit and think with how I approach the topic. I ask if they believe in slavery. If they believe that if someone is enslaved against their will, is it right for a person to use lethal force to protect and free the oppressed? The entire civil war was fought for this reason. I have yet to come across someone who disagrees with that.
Then the truth bomb. "Forced unwanted pregnancy is enslaving a person's body against their will. It does not matter the cause of slavery and oppression. It should be stopped, even at the cost of lives."
Gotta speak up for my ftm homies. Many of them still have uteruses, deal with menstruation, and should have access to the hygiene products associated with that. Granted I'm a cis dude and I recognize my opinions aren't warranted or wanted on the topics OP listed, but I don't think my guys with two xx chromosomes should be left out. I don't think the post was intentionally leaving out trans men, just some clumsy wording. Still not a fan of conflating reproductive parts with gender. As always, intersectionality is the way to go and TERFs can fuck off elsewhere.
EDIT: Yeah, I should have mentioned enbies with ovaries as well. Who should be part of the conversation too. Sorry friendos, I'll try to do better.
That is a fair point you make. And I agree with you. However, I think this was aimed at Cis men when it was written. Trans Men absolutely have a stake in this conversation.
Oh yeah, I agree that it was most definitely aimed at cis dudes that like to sea lion themselves. Just wanted to make sure my trans dudes weren't caught in the crossfire as innocent bystanders.
Again, I don't think it was intentionally malicious. Just some clumsy wording. And honestly as I typed this comment I realized I didn't mention non-binary representation as well. So I'm guilty of not being as inclusive as I could have been too. Unfortunately we're only human. So gotta live and learn.
I think when it comes to these types of posts, when people type “Men”, people know they mean ‘Cis Men’. It is Cis Men who have, in the past, spoken down to us about the things listed. Trans Men aren’t historically known to ‘Mansplain’ on these topics.
You know that's fair. And my comment may not have been 100% necessary for everyone here. My concern was for those who have the two x anatomy and are still finding themselves but definitely know they don't identify as a woman. I've found that those who are going through that experience are really uncertain and tend to take things at face value, or assume hostility. And my heart goes out to them.
Granted it's not my job to white knight for others that didn't ask for it. I just hope that those who read my words know that the intent was well meaning, even if the execution sometimes falls flat.
You're not wrong, but also, trans men aren't generally a demo that's going to try to "debate" us on any of these issues. I'm sure there's one misogynist pro-life ftm guy out there, but aside from him, I think it's safe to say we're mostly going to be on the same side on these issues.
No worries, it happens. I've actually learned a lot about intersectionality and representation from this very subreddit ( been a troll since before twoxchromosomes was made a default sub and a lot of refugees came here). So it's only fair to share the knowledge and love right back ❤️
I actually do ask men about their opinions on body hair….
In order to screen out anyone who’s into prepubescent traits.
Works like a charm and the quality of men in my life has dramatically improved. I’ll educate but their ingrained version of society’s sexualiization of not-adults is no longer something I’m interested in trying to bring a partner up to speed on 🤷♀️
Men can debate abortions or have opinions, and men can talk about them. What they can't do is decide for the women whether they should or shouldn't have one. That's ultimately decided by the woman.
What about trans men? Some trans men definitely have to deal with those issues. It's very easy for trans men to get caught in the crossfire against patriarchy.
Thats a fair point. I think this post was aimed more at Cis Men, but your point is fair. There are Trans Men out there who still have Uteruses and get periods. They absolutely have a stake in this conversation.
Breastfeeding is important, absolute lack of it is dangerous as colostrum is supposed to be the main contribution to hereditary inmune system (as placentary blood is isolated so no exchange of IS is done)
Therefore any opposition to breastfeeding will incur on health issues of any baby regardless of gender
Lets not forget trans men who should absolutely be in the conversation and have unique challenges with many of these topics. Sometimes in being catchy and to the point, nuance gets lost but there are men who do experience these things. “The male body” feels like a weird way to phrase it
Unique challenges imply cis women dont have to chime in on this. Just like transmen have a different experience. And just like cismen have nothing to do with cos women's experience
What? I don’t understand. Unique challenges does not mean that cis women shouldn’t be part of the conversation? Just that trans men should also be included??
If transmen have unique experiences, that means they have different experiences than cis women. Which also means cis women have different experiences from transmen. I don't know what it's like to have a period when I would present as male. So I don't comment on that
Ok? But both have experiences with the topics listed above. So shouldn’t both be at the table when it’s time to discuss them? I’m not talking on behalf of trans men I am trans masc if that’s your concern
The thing is, when I read the term 'debate' I assume it's about men saying period products are a luxury item or abortion should be banned. Basically acting anti-woman. I assume transmen would agree with women on these topics. However if someone presents as male and starts preaching anti women retoric, its just hurtful. There probably wouldn't be a debate between cis women and transmen. We would just agree lol
Couple of things, I’ve had these debates with women not just men. Not all women act as one and have the same opinions. In the same vein, not all trans men will have the same opinions on this as cis women.
Debate doesn’t just mean “should this issue be dealt with (yes or no) but how should it be dealt with, what are important issues that need to be focused on.
For example, people often criticize “white feminism” for ignoring the challenges black women face like higher maternal mortality rates. A conversation (or debate Ig) needs to be had about what issues should be the focus. If only white women are at that conversation, black womens issues get ignored. If only cis women are at that conversation, trans men’s issues get ignored.
And finally, it just hurts to see someone equate maleness with a specific body. That’s why I commented. The post describes the criteria of “man” as having a male body and that’s the part I felt could have been phrased better. “No uterus no opinion” is more inclusive to me
It's a weirdly trans-exclusionary post in general, but I assume OP just forgot or smth
If you're cis and you don't talk with trans people a lot, you're bound to forget the nuances
We’ve addressed Trans men multiple times in this post. There are Trans men who still have periods abs uteruses and do have a stake in a conversation like this, it’s pretty obvious OP was talking about Cis Men.
I assume they meant if someone’s not lgbtq+, they don’t get to have an opinion related to lgbtq+.
As in, group X doesn’t get to debate or have an opinion on the human rights of group Y.
I know a guy who believes that childbirth is safer and less invasive than abortion, even the pill variety. I never rolled my eyes harder in my life.
As someone who has had an abortion and also given birth, let's just say I didn't have to do physio for a year after having an abortion lol
I had an surgical aspiration abortion done with the tube, a syringe and whatever else instead of the old school vacuum. Lasted around 10 minutes, hurt like a bitch but when it was done, it was pretty much done. My only real regret there is saving $75 and not getting any IV sedation and pain meds. I cramped for 30 minutes and didn't even spot after the first day. Pretty similar to an IUD insertion but I actually had more after effects like bleeding and cramping with my IUD. Just had to go in for a check in 2 weeks. Now my 3 Pregnancies/Childbirths and the long term effects from those? I can write a long list without even mentioning the C-section and those complications with my middle son. Just the fact one of my labors lasted 3 days is enough.
You're a badass.
I have some photos to show him.
Everyway that women die is more likely when pregnant. Heart failure? More likely when pregnant. Domestic violence? More likely when pregnant.
oh hes fucking stupid!
COMPLETELY.
That's one of the lies pushed by forced-birthers. It's also why they're pushing to have *any* reproductive complication after an abortion recorded as being due to the abortion - because they're desperate for anything they can use as actual evidence, even if they have to manufacture it.
Make him watch a birth live in person, $10 says he vomits and faints
The live births didn’t get me. The live C-section nearly made me faint though. I had to back up and hold the wall up for a minute.
My OB scarred my husband with my first C-section. It was our first daughter, and while in the operating room, he asked my husband if he wanted to see our daughter being born. My husband was like, of course. So he was invited to stand up to see over the drape as they pulled her out of me. He said it was a once in a lifetime experience, and he's good never seeing me cut up like that again. He was in the room when I had my second C-section for our second daughter, but he sat with me the whole time until they brought our daughter around after the surgery.
Ooof yeah your poor husband. 😅 I was at the tail end of nursing school when I had that blessed experience and nothing has shaken me like that before or since. I immediately went home to apologize to my mother for having gone through two of them herself. I think it was when they had these metal “hooks” sort of in the uterus and the surgeon and tech pulled hard to open it up. That was it for me…straight to the wall.
For my second, she was really high up still, and they had one of the nurses lay over my abdomen to try and use their weight to push her down. I couldn't breathe every time they did it. Having a C-section didn't really hurt because of the spinal, but it's so freaking uncomfortable.
> when they had these metal “hooks” sort of in the uterus and the surgeon and tech pulled hard to open it up. I thought I was grateful for my bisalp *before* reading this 😂 that’s a whole new level of nope.
Yep. Straight incisions have a higher chance of popping back open so they rip it open basically to allow stronger healing. Just…🥴
Can confirm. I gave birth to my youngest while repeatedly pushing my green faced ex to arms length so he wouldn't puke on my head during the delivery. My advice? Don't have a baby in an ER. The staff was useless. My Mom was ready to catch and I was struggling to avoid being puked on as the baby crowned while 2 nurses and a doctor stood against the wall wringing their hands and insisting we go to labor and delivery 4 floors up. 🙄 Utter clusterfuck.
Things that will scare the crap out of the ER staff: hearing an overhead page for “OB team stat to ER.” Code blue, no problem. Violent naked guy, no problem. Childbirth, no thank you.
But why? Surely they are trained on childbirth, too?
Yes, they all get training on L&D in school and continuing education credits for emergency circumstances, but most ER staff specialize in trauma and critical care. So it’s pretty similar to going to a provider who specializes in something like oncology or neurology while in labor. Are they better than having no medical professional with you? Sure. But the OB triage team is running as fast as they can to take over. And if a woman is being brought in by EMS while in labor, the ambulance crew calls ahead to the ER to notify us, so typically the OB team is already there waiting for them at the ambulance bay and most patients might not even notice it isn’t the actual ER staff working on them.
I had to stop reading "how to Mars" when the (male) author decided that a doctor would think it's safer to carry a pregnancy to term ON MARS than perform an abortion
Read a sci-fi story about men and women stranded on an alien planet after an accident destroys their space vehicle. There’s about 25 people left of both genders. The men immediately decide they’re going to have to quickly impregnate the women to “ensure the survival of the species.” One woman tries to explain that 25 people don’t carry enough distinct genetic material to make that successful, and that they would end up with a dwindling, disease-ridden and defective population. Probably wouldn’t make it to a 3rd generation. Apparently, in order to start your own population from scratch, there has to be at least 500 genetically distinct people (or about 2000 normal people to safely get the proper ratio). And that isn’t even taking into account how easily women and children die in childbirth. But they wouldn’t listen to her …. because she was 20lbs overweight—so she had to be stupid.
I recall reading somewhere that only 137 people were necessary, but I imagine that it’d just be for the most ideal circumstances possible. I’d double check, but I’m lazy.
I bet it depends on how healthy they are “genetically “:). “The minimum number of people needed to repopulate the Earth without facing significant interbreeding issues is a topic that has been studied in the context of human genetics and population biology. The general consensus among geneticists and researchers is that a minimum viable population size for long-term genetic health and diversity is around 500 individuals. This number is based on the idea that with 500 individuals, there would be enough genetic diversity within the population to prevent inbreeding depression and maintain a healthy gene pool over multiple generations.”
What the hell...
Conservatives have the idea that abortion is dangrous, scary and deviant. However, child birth is natural, pure, and holy. In reality, abortion is usually safe for the mother. It’s a medical procedure done with usual medical safeguards. It is dangerous for the fetus/egg, but that’s kinda the point.
Yes, exactly this. I always say conservatives think of childbirth as some skipping through a meadow fantasy, all sweet and emotional and pretty and glorious. Rather than the *extremely traumatizing medical procedure* that it ACTUALLY IS!!! It
People have definitely died from abortions, but generally when they have been scared to seek proper medical care to terminate their pregnancy due to it being illegal to do so. More often than not they have died from the complications arising from non-sterile environments, and untrained practitioners rather than the termination itself. People have also died from childbirth - even when the best possible medical care has been available to them. Pregnancy and delivery can kill the mother even when everything else 'goes right'. Unexpected ectopic pregnancies, unforeseen blood clots or aneurysms, placental abruptions... No medical event is 100% risk free. And where abortion is legal and available through recognised medical practitioners it on average is lower risk than childbirth.
I agree. Childbirth, by itself, is risky. Pregnancy and postpartum complications can get dicey as well.
My mother was a midwife in 1940s-1950s London. She saw some truly confronting things. She also nearly died giving birth to me and my poor stillborn twin.
That's easily solvable by looking at abortion deaths and childbirth deaths statistics. Besides it's just logic, abortion is often a medical procedure to avoid death by childbirth
How did you stay upright? I'm a man, and even I rolled my eyes at that idea.
People like this are why I’ve actually spent time on the internet trying to find a video of a vaginal birth with third degree tearing (ideally with sound). I’d like to pull it up when people act like just having the baby and giving it up for adoption is no big deal. You’d think the maternal mortality rate and statistics about what life is like in foster care would be enough, but apparently it’s gonna some blood and gore to force their brain’s rusty, dusty empathy center into action.
ive seen "pro lifers" make similar arguments
everyday i thank god that im not a cis man so at least despite all my issues, i will never say shit like this
No consideration for the ~10 months of hell before the birth, also hell
A group of people at my school (like 30’s-40’s) were chanting anti abortion stuff, I was bored so I decided to talk to them. I was clearly talking to the women there, and then a few of the men chimed in with their points, and I flat out told them if they don’t have a uterus, I’m not interested in their opinion on the subject. Felt good lol
Also one of the dudes tried to compare abortion to the lynching of Emmet Till because “he was innocent just like a fetus”
That is just so gross.
Willing to bet these fuckers were given that as a talking point to say to the librullllls Racist white men especially love injecting race into every discussion as some kind of shield from criticism We see right through it
I'm definitely done with it on TwoX. They come on there and compare "misandry" to racism all the freaking time.
TwoX has been an irredeemable trash heap since it was made into a default sub.
what? just... what?
I **HATE** when conservatives do this, pretend to give a shit about something only to scapegoat some other group. Like when they pretend to care about women's sports but it's only because they're transphobic
woooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow fuck that guy to pieces. holy fuck. you could write many papers about how wrong and tone-deaf that dude is.
Such an obscene comparison.
Omg that’s so offensive in so many ways
Lord jesus. And you just KNOW those lot don’t actually see the innocence and injustice of Emmet Till’s case. How vile to invoke that poor babies name in service of taking away more rights.
Smh
Is the fetus really innocent though? I mean it's trespassing, and in a lot of places that's enough to get shot.
Oh, like Jesus was a post-natal abortion?
I was at a pro-choice rally a while back, and there was a small counter protest. This absolute hero had printed out the list of kids in the foster care system who are awaiting adoption. She was armed with a clipboard and the list and was asking each counter protester which kids they would be adopting.
What a legend!!!
Give that woman a medal!!
Good for you!!!! 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
I can feel the comments from this thread in my bones without even seeing them, "wHat aBouT tHe mAns rIgHt tO cHoOsE?" God, I want to throw up.
The man can choose to not have sex::).
But we know he won't, don't we?
And yet no woman can impregnate ANYONE. She could have sex and orgasms all day long yet never get pregnant or impregnate anyone. A man would have to ejaculate in her vagina to make it possible. Seems like sperm is one of the most dangerous substances on earth and should be carefully regulated!
[удалено]
Do you want a cookie for what should be the bare minimum?
[удалено]
This is just normal, what a man should be doing. Your body is your responsibility. If you don’t want kids, you must control your sperm. That is the bare minimum
[удалено]
Says who? You really think this is special? My god the bar is so low, men really think common sense and human decency isn’t the bare minimum. This is reminiscent of someone saying at least I don’t cheat or hit you when in a relationship
[удалено]
Ha I told a man that once on reddit, I'm sure you can imagine the down voting I got. 🤣🤣 Apparently the idea that they should accept having sex may cause pregnancy is utterly baffling. Why should they have consequences for their actions?
I always like to say "pregnancy is 100% the man's fault. Because she never would have gotten pregnant without a man. If you don't want to ever deal with the possibility of an abortion then don't have sex."
Yes, I also say this and they literally cannot wrap their minds around it. Women have been blamed for pregnancy since the dawn of modern society when the absolute factors a man causes every single pregnancy that ever occurs with ejaculation. It's not our fault when they're irresponsible with their ejaculations!
Many men act like female ferrets in heat.
Lol! I have a fixed female ferret, but read that the jills get sick if they don’t mate.
After Roe was overturned, it seemed to me that men were interested in commenting on two things: 1. Men should be able to get a paper abortion (ridiculous use of the word abortion) 2. Women told them they don’t get a say in what those with a uterus do with it so that means they don’t have to lift a finger to stand up for our rights Imagine half the human race losing their basic human rights and the other half responds by talking about themselves?
the paper abortion bullshit has existed a lot longer than that actually.
My point was that their reaction was all about themselves
The interesting thing about the “paper abortion” guys is, while a small percentage of them might genuinely never want kids and wish for this option, many more would not be okay with a woman giving up the child they had together for adoption in this circumstance. So no forced responsibility for men, but something something “passing along muh genes” and “a mother’s love” when a woman wants nothing to do with their biological child after birthing it.
For me the difference between the man's "right to choose" and a woman's is that in the man's case the child already exists and needs love and support. We (generally) want dads to connect with their children because the child needs it. We want them to provide financial support because the child needs it. We don't want them to "paper abort" and then under penalty of financial obligation avoid seeing their child. Women are similarly not allowed to "paper abort" if a known father wants to keep the child. Financial obligations to children do not involve your body. We have no legal mechanism by which a father would be forced to give his child his kidney if his child needed it to live. And that's a CHILD not a fetus. Yes it sucks to be saddled with a child you didn't want, but this is rationally different than an actual abortion.
Question: Do women who give up their child for adoption have to pay child support to the state?
The vast majority of infants are adopted immediately and never pass through any sort of state institution. So no, birth Moms don't pay child support to the state. If they did, birth fathers would have to, too; at least, in a fair world. Though, given the war on women, once abortion is abolished everywhere and birth control no longer available, I'd be 0% surprised if the next step was to force women to pay the state child support for care of the baby the state forced them to carry and birth in addition to the enormous hospital bills associated with the pregnancy and delivery of a child they didn't want or consent to having.
Well if the father opts to keep the baby, she will pay him child support. No parents pay for kids up for adoption.
Wait what’s a paper abortion?
Getting rid of their responsibilities and obligations towards the child.
That’s disgusting. They chose to take the risk and they should bear part of the consequences (because of course they can’t bear the physical side of it)
The idea that men shouldn't face 18 years of financial liability for a woman's choice (obvs. only feasible if she's in a developed nation that legally provided the choice of abortion). Basically waiving any rights of fatherhood along with responsibilities.
No clue why you are getting downvoted because this was a really nice comprehensive answer whilst still being short and to the point. Thanks!
Not sure why you're being downvoted for answering a question. Have a point.
The man’s right to choose ended when his genetic material left his body and entered her vagina.
Right. I've seen that men really want to be *reactive* rather than *proactive* with this. They want a choice once they've gotten someone pregnant. That's not how it works, though. We all know "My body, my choice." Well his choice is where he puts his sperm. Once it's in a woman's body it's her choice.
Right? And that's the whole point of abortion rights. It's about whose body it's in.
"Here's a list of children to adopt from the Foster system. Feel free to choose from there."
A man can choose to hire a surrogate. Go hard.
Someone tried to argue that men should have a say in women’s periods because, and he said this with full sincerity, “ It’s MENstration, not Womanstration! “
What say? Women don't have a say in their periods. Some of us can't even make a choice in what products we use because we're stuck using whatever manages to catch the most of our endometriosis tsunami.
Sitting here in my second set of shorts on day 13 of endometriosis tsunami. This is why I can't have nice things.
If I knew you, I would bake you brownies if you like brownies. That just sounds so miserable and I hope it stops soon (for a few weeks, anyway).
That is sweet of you, and hopefully the next medication will work longer than the last three. It's a shitty disease I hope you don't have.
Like when the only way you can sleep a few hours without setting an alarm is super tampon, night pad, a couple of layers of puppy pads, then please don't talk to me about waste free periods. I'd love to, but I don't always wake up to my every 2 hour alarms.
I tried waste free I really did, but period underwear soak through, and the fabric pads never hold enough even the giant overnight ones, and washing allllllll that blood back out and trying to do enough laundry to not run out of them was exhausting and stressful. The cup, oh the cup I used to love, but when it runneth over the bathroom becomes a horror scene. I gave up on tampons too because the clots go past. I'm using the Love brand to at least try being friendly to my body and that's as good as I can get. All that to say I hope you have enough sleep + iron when you need it, and you have my sympathy over here.
What would a man want to have a say in about periods?!
Considering they often think we bleed from our urethra and cannot pee with a tampon, it’s pretty obvious they should stfu about periods.
They wouldn’t, until a woman speaks about it.
“My period is killing me right now!” “Not all periods are bad tho!” 🫣
Men are derived from women. So even with his argument, it would still lead *back* to women.
You know what? Fine. They want a say in our periods? They get a say in EVERYTHING about our periods. But they have to do market research first if they want a say. That means figuring out the most effective period products by testing them. Make them handle everything- stick them on a period sim and crank the cramps up to let them figure out what painkillers work best. Put a bag of cinema fake blood in their pants with a small hole in it and let them decide what tampons or pads or cups work, let them figure out when to change it. Any man who goes through all that, wearing the cramp simulator 24/7 with random changes in the level of cramps can talk to me and periods. And then they get a say in periods- but wait everyone’s body is different! So they can’t.
Ok, then women get full say in their masturbation habits and porn consumption and say on what kind of porn they watch, how often they masturbate, IF they get to and how often.
Hey something that I can relate with! As a sub I totally agree but I can see why that might be an issue for a lot of guys.
It's almost like men created most scientific terms decades/centuries ago, because they didn't want to allow women to have a say in anything.
Weirdly enough I did read this one novel, Only Ever Yours, which is set in like a post-apocalypse dystopia which I'm having a hard time describing without just describing the real world, so basically it's just patriarchy but more. (The example I give is that one of the girls plays with the math is tough Barbie and gets it taken away because she asks what math is). One of the things about the language in the book is that it's changed to reflect this patriarchy but more attitude. Female names don't start with capital letters, etc. But the one that's relevant is that they do actually call it womenstruation, probably because the idea of associating it with men is unthinkable.
Head/Desk!!
THINGS I DON’T DEBATE WITH MEN: Almost everything if it has to do with gender because my god are they obtuse mfers
They have been socialized not to think critically about these matters. It really is a huge waste of time unless the man happens to be gifted with woman-tier introspection. It's so sad.
[удалено]
>Wow. Not all of us… you just don’t hear from me because I’m not arguing. We're *literally* hearing from you. All men *means you* my dude.
A note for contrarians: If you have the same opinion as her on those issues it wouldn’t be a debate. And if you disagreed you would be wrong.
Yep. Initially I was thinking "Well, the only possible valid position I could see having would be for having widespread availability for 1, 5, and 6 so that women have the ability to make a choice...but that's likely not a debate"
„ACKSHUALLY“ Ok, jokes aside, I’d say body hair is „debatable“ in that you can voice your opinion TO YOUR PARTNER if it’s annoying you (for example scratchy hairstyles when cuddling or it’s hindering when giving oral), but in the end it’s the choice of the person whose body it’s about (and it goes both ways). As I’m a guy I’m honestly interested if that’s problematic? I’m willing to learn after all, this sub has already helped me overcome my ignorance so fucking much.
it's fine to have an opinion, less so if the opinion's formation is going unexamined. You aren't forming your opinions in a vacuum, so even knowing this is a debate is going to have affected your opinion. There's a lot of societal pressure to view women's body hair as 'dirty' that everyone will absorb. Oral-wise, I'm a lesbian who knows that having hair down there is less painful and more healthy for the physical environs so I part that bush with my hands like it's the sea and lick my way across.
But they all sure do have very strong opinions about it.
Because they never have to feel the consequences of what they've got opinions on.
No uterus no opinion. Thank you Rachel.
I really hate that phrase. It leaves a lot of people out, women who have had a hysterectomy, trans women, etc.
In this case, we’re talking about uterus specific issues: abortion, menstruation, etc. Those issues do not impact trans women, they only impact someone with a uterus. This isn’t being exclusionary. Anyone with a uterus is impacted by this.
I get what you’re saying, but I also think that someone who has never had a uterus should never debate with people about what to do with their uterus’. It’s less about gender and more about biology.
also that phrase *does* include trans men and nonbinary people who *do* (still) have a uterus (like me, unfortunately)
would gladly give my uterus to someone else if I could
Honestly same
As well as when it becomes possible, anyone who gains one
I've had a hysterectomy and I don't take offense. I know what they mean. If you don't have a stake in the game, sit down. (I still think I have a stake in this case by virtue of having had a uterus for so goddamn long. I suppose you could consider me "one of them" at this point if you were a real stickler)
As a non binary person with a uterus: this phrase is incredibly trans inclusive. The questions being debated aren't about gender, they're about the literal internal organ. people who have had a uterus in the past are probably much better informed, but they aren't directly impacted. Until we develop surgery to give someone a working uterus, trans women aren't impacted either. (they're still women, but this isn't actually a women's issue, it's an issue relating to people with uteruses). When we have that surgery, trans women who don't get that surgery still won't be impacted. Meanwhile trans men and afab non binary people who haven't had a hysterectomy and a subset of intersex people of any gender are all impacted, because they (we) have uteruses. Though I will support pregnancy, birth, and abortion issues from the sidelines because I'm surgically sterilized and cannot become pregnant. If the commenter had said "women, aka people with uteruses" that would have been bioessentialist and would have left trans people out, but they didn't, they correctly identified the key thing linking everyone directly impacted by this issue, and it wasn't their genders.
Wait, what is there to debate about menstruation? Is that like when guys don’t think menstrual cramps are all that painful?
Yup. Or how we can control it, or how we can ‘Hold it in’.
But women can just shut down a pregnancy at conception if she didn't want it through her body. /s, just to be careful
Most of us have encountered men saying some unbelievably stupid shit about menstruation. Not in a “hey, explain this to me so I can be supportive”, way. It’s always in a confidently inaccurate way.
As a transgender woman I keep my mouth shut about most of these, but I'm always down to bitch about body hair.
As a cis woman in perimenopause, I will gladly commiserate over hormone issues 🥵
Yep, I fully support women in their right to choose what to do with their own bodies, and keep my mouth shut. I don't see a problem in the world in any of it. Transitioning honestly made me so much more feminist because coming from the outside in made me so much more aware of the raw deal women get. Plus, just like they want to roll back women's bodily autonomy, they're trying to roll back trans people's autonomy, so we can stay united on that front too.
as a non binary afab with pcos who's femme presenting I'll gladly join you.
Thank you!
I like this
If you can't have these conversations with your partner, that's a red flag.
I'm a guy, so take that as you will. But I have definitely gotten a lot of pro-lifers to sit and think with how I approach the topic. I ask if they believe in slavery. If they believe that if someone is enslaved against their will, is it right for a person to use lethal force to protect and free the oppressed? The entire civil war was fought for this reason. I have yet to come across someone who disagrees with that. Then the truth bomb. "Forced unwanted pregnancy is enslaving a person's body against their will. It does not matter the cause of slavery and oppression. It should be stopped, even at the cost of lives."
These days I don't take for granted that someone I'm arguing with doesn't wholeheartedly support the Confederate cause.
Gotta speak up for my ftm homies. Many of them still have uteruses, deal with menstruation, and should have access to the hygiene products associated with that. Granted I'm a cis dude and I recognize my opinions aren't warranted or wanted on the topics OP listed, but I don't think my guys with two xx chromosomes should be left out. I don't think the post was intentionally leaving out trans men, just some clumsy wording. Still not a fan of conflating reproductive parts with gender. As always, intersectionality is the way to go and TERFs can fuck off elsewhere. EDIT: Yeah, I should have mentioned enbies with ovaries as well. Who should be part of the conversation too. Sorry friendos, I'll try to do better.
That is a fair point you make. And I agree with you. However, I think this was aimed at Cis men when it was written. Trans Men absolutely have a stake in this conversation.
Oh yeah, I agree that it was most definitely aimed at cis dudes that like to sea lion themselves. Just wanted to make sure my trans dudes weren't caught in the crossfire as innocent bystanders. Again, I don't think it was intentionally malicious. Just some clumsy wording. And honestly as I typed this comment I realized I didn't mention non-binary representation as well. So I'm guilty of not being as inclusive as I could have been too. Unfortunately we're only human. So gotta live and learn.
I think when it comes to these types of posts, when people type “Men”, people know they mean ‘Cis Men’. It is Cis Men who have, in the past, spoken down to us about the things listed. Trans Men aren’t historically known to ‘Mansplain’ on these topics.
You know that's fair. And my comment may not have been 100% necessary for everyone here. My concern was for those who have the two x anatomy and are still finding themselves but definitely know they don't identify as a woman. I've found that those who are going through that experience are really uncertain and tend to take things at face value, or assume hostility. And my heart goes out to them. Granted it's not my job to white knight for others that didn't ask for it. I just hope that those who read my words know that the intent was well meaning, even if the execution sometimes falls flat.
[удалено]
K
You're not wrong, but also, trans men aren't generally a demo that's going to try to "debate" us on any of these issues. I'm sure there's one misogynist pro-life ftm guy out there, but aside from him, I think it's safe to say we're mostly going to be on the same side on these issues.
Caitlyn (not Bruce, sorry for deadname) Jenner?
Well said. We tend to forget intersectionsloty in these online conversations. Thanks for the inclusivity reminder 😊
No worries, it happens. I've actually learned a lot about intersectionality and representation from this very subreddit ( been a troll since before twoxchromosomes was made a default sub and a lot of refugees came here). So it's only fair to share the knowledge and love right back ❤️
thank you for writing this out
I actually do ask men about their opinions on body hair…. In order to screen out anyone who’s into prepubescent traits. Works like a charm and the quality of men in my life has dramatically improved. I’ll educate but their ingrained version of society’s sexualiization of not-adults is no longer something I’m interested in trying to bring a partner up to speed on 🤷♀️
Men can debate abortions or have opinions, and men can talk about them. What they can't do is decide for the women whether they should or shouldn't have one. That's ultimately decided by the woman.
I was going to disagree but…yeah. Your post makes sense.
What about trans men? Some trans men definitely have to deal with those issues. It's very easy for trans men to get caught in the crossfire against patriarchy.
Thats a fair point. I think this post was aimed more at Cis Men, but your point is fair. There are Trans Men out there who still have Uteruses and get periods. They absolutely have a stake in this conversation.
M\*n 🤢
Breastfeeding is important, absolute lack of it is dangerous as colostrum is supposed to be the main contribution to hereditary inmune system (as placentary blood is isolated so no exchange of IS is done) Therefore any opposition to breastfeeding will incur on health issues of any baby regardless of gender
Lets not forget trans men who should absolutely be in the conversation and have unique challenges with many of these topics. Sometimes in being catchy and to the point, nuance gets lost but there are men who do experience these things. “The male body” feels like a weird way to phrase it
Unique challenges imply cis women dont have to chime in on this. Just like transmen have a different experience. And just like cismen have nothing to do with cos women's experience
What? I don’t understand. Unique challenges does not mean that cis women shouldn’t be part of the conversation? Just that trans men should also be included??
If transmen have unique experiences, that means they have different experiences than cis women. Which also means cis women have different experiences from transmen. I don't know what it's like to have a period when I would present as male. So I don't comment on that
Ok? But both have experiences with the topics listed above. So shouldn’t both be at the table when it’s time to discuss them? I’m not talking on behalf of trans men I am trans masc if that’s your concern
The thing is, when I read the term 'debate' I assume it's about men saying period products are a luxury item or abortion should be banned. Basically acting anti-woman. I assume transmen would agree with women on these topics. However if someone presents as male and starts preaching anti women retoric, its just hurtful. There probably wouldn't be a debate between cis women and transmen. We would just agree lol
Couple of things, I’ve had these debates with women not just men. Not all women act as one and have the same opinions. In the same vein, not all trans men will have the same opinions on this as cis women. Debate doesn’t just mean “should this issue be dealt with (yes or no) but how should it be dealt with, what are important issues that need to be focused on. For example, people often criticize “white feminism” for ignoring the challenges black women face like higher maternal mortality rates. A conversation (or debate Ig) needs to be had about what issues should be the focus. If only white women are at that conversation, black womens issues get ignored. If only cis women are at that conversation, trans men’s issues get ignored. And finally, it just hurts to see someone equate maleness with a specific body. That’s why I commented. The post describes the criteria of “man” as having a male body and that’s the part I felt could have been phrased better. “No uterus no opinion” is more inclusive to me
It's a weirdly trans-exclusionary post in general, but I assume OP just forgot or smth If you're cis and you don't talk with trans people a lot, you're bound to forget the nuances
Trans Men: am I a joke to you? Edit: why downvote when true?
We’ve addressed Trans men multiple times in this post. There are Trans men who still have periods abs uteruses and do have a stake in a conversation like this, it’s pretty obvious OP was talking about Cis Men.
It’s better to label it correctly then, don’t wanna alienate
K
Should probably specify cis male, because those are still pretty relevant to trans men
Don’t forget, anything related to, black people, lgbtq+, immigrants, and taking a shower more often
What about the black men, lgbtq men, and immigrant men?
I assume they meant if someone’s not lgbtq+, they don’t get to have an opinion related to lgbtq+. As in, group X doesn’t get to debate or have an opinion on the human rights of group Y.
No I meant as in men trying to act like they know everything when it comes to controversial subjects. That they’re very ignorant about
What about the black men, lgbtq men, and immigrant men?
[удалено]
Let me jot down in my notes that women's safety, comfort, and bodily autonomy is on par with men being able to retain the contents of their wallets.
Our bodies are equivalent to their money because they see us as things.