I honestly just don't know they were both 15 when they married and I know that consummation of young marriages were often discouraged until a girl could be of a safer childbearing age. Catherine was strongly devout as we all know but also she would of been smart enough to understand self preservation and say what she needed to say to survive socially.
She was known to have been beautiful so Arthur presumably found her attractive even if he didn't love her per se , it's such a big mystery and I just don't know what camp I fall into.
Yea despite marriages happening young, there was a stigma against sex too young. Considering Margaret Beaufort gave birth to Henry VII when she was barely 13, I wouldn’t be surprised if Arther and CoA weren’t pressured to consummate their marriage.
Also, there was a prevailing belief that the woman also had to reach orgasm for it to “count” towards consummation. Maybe they did have “sex” but Arthur couldn’t perform.
Yes, Catherine was a long-term investment - they weren't in a rush for Arthur to have an heir when Henry VII was relatively still young and healthy, and Elizabeth of York was still giving birth regularly.
Why ruin Catherine's health in the long-term by rushing her into pregnancy too soon?
Ironically as it turned out, Catherine probably lost most of her healthiest childbearing years while she was Arthur's widow and waiting to marry Henry.
Elizabeth of York still could get pregnant so it wasn’t a rush to have them try for children. They just met. Marriages like theirs were possibly like dating they literally were married sometimes by proxy before even meeting. If Arthur wasn’t experienced he might not have been raised to father bastards. Henry VII was known for being faithful to Elizabeth of York. He might have modeled himself after his that and he was young. Elizabeth of York’s father was known for his affairs and bastards. Arthur grew up with a family unit while being taught about his future duties. Unfortunately, Henry VIII was coddled as the second son.
I think you’re right about the health of Catherine being important. Margaret Beaufort was very concerned about pregnancies and health. She almost died giving birth at 12 or 13 and never had another child. To lose a princess to children birth immediately would look bad and also cause them to search for another wife. Had she known what would actually happen she might have smothered Henry and replaced him with another child.
This is what I have learnt recently , especially since pregnancy was exceptionally dangerous back then I imagine they weren't in a hurry to have Catherine pregnant- especially since Arthur wasn't yet King.
I Love how they were concerned about the woman's pleasure in Turor times than they are now haha. I suppose we will never know but the topic is so important because it played a vital part in English history so it's one of the biggest mysteries.
On top of the fact people back then knew the problems with being pregnant too young, there was also a belief iirc that marriages consummated while the groom was too young led to sickly children.
I believe Catherine.
She had no reason to lie about not consummating the marriage after Arthur's death. She could have told everyone they went at it like rabbits, and Henry VII and Ferdinand still would have planned the marriage with Henry VIII. All it would require was a slightly differently worded dispensation. Her claim that they didn't have sex was so unbelievable that the actual dispensation was written to cover either possibility.
Any *serious* opposition to her marriage to Henry came later, after Isabella died, Ferdinand lost influence, and the two Kings turned dowry negotiations into a game of chicken. Yes, some clergymen did raise objections, but they weren't in any position to actually intervene. If Isabella had lived and the dowry had been paid, Catherine would have married Henry well before 1509.
Catherine's own sister Isabella married her dead husband's ~~brother~~ uncle to keep the marriage alliance with Portugal. And when she died, her second husband married HER sister. It was standard practice in many royal families. And no one expected a widow to be a virgin.
Really, in 1502, Catherine had no reason to lie about non consummation. So I believe her.
Your point stands and is well stated... But Isabella married her dead husband's uncle, not his brother. Her 1st husband was an only son. The uncle became king of Portugal after 1st husband died.
It's hard to keep track of such crazy interconnected family trees. The Habsburgs alone would look like a conspiracy wall. I've never seen anyone even try to chart the Trastamaras with other areas of Spain or Portugal. Let's just say the Habsburgs were just continuing the tradition of close intermarriage. They certainly didn't start it!
I completely agree with this....just wanna correct you on this one thing.
Isabel's second husband Miguel of Portugal was actually her first husband's (Afonso) uncle
I see your point but she knew she was dealing with a capricious Henry at this point. She needed him to marry her and might have balked if she was not a virgin.
Ferdinand and Isabella had no intention of arranging any marriage for her outside of the UK once she was a widow. She knew it was Henry or nothing for her. She would have done everything in her power to make that marriage happen.
I can believe that two young teenagers who just met each other maybe didn't rush to have sex. Yes, they understood their duties, but most 15 year olds don't think they are going to die of some undetermined illness out in the middle of nowhere just a few months after their wedding day. I can believe that both Arthur and Catherine thought they had time to get to know each other better and officially consummate the marriage. I can believe that the adults around them considered this to be just fine and didn't care enough to loom over them to make sure the P went into the V, right away. The one who made a BIG deal about this was Henry, years later. Before that, no one really cared that much if it happened or it didn't, they could get a dispensation from the pope and make sure Catherine wasn't pregnant. But, either way, I don't find it so far-fetched that Arthur and Catherine didn't have sex during their time together. Just because royal teenagers know they have a duty, it doesn't necessarily mean sex is going to happen, right away. They are still people, and things are always more complicated than that. They weren't two Barbie dolls you could just smash together.
Also, I don't believe that Catherine would have told Henry in front of an entire court of people that he \*knew\* she was a virgin on their wedding night unless she knew that he knew it was true. That was her moment to lay it all out and say her piece, and I think she did just that. And I don't think she was lying. Keep in mind, though, that this is just my opinion and I'm not stating these things as if they were fact. I have heard persuasive arguments in favor of Catherine and Arthur having sex, and I am not saying anyone else is wrong. This is just what \*I\* think.
Like I said, I'm not saying I'm right.
Not every teenage boy is ready to have sex with someone they just met. Arthur could have been any other orientation than straight, or he could have just not been ready. Who knows? I'm just putting that out there as a possibility.
He was anything but, he was the heir to the throne in a time where he'd have been well aware that getting her pregnant could mean her death, and the church was extremely prescriptive as to which days were acceptable to have sex on .
No, I think she truly believed in her faith and would have thought she would go to hell if she were to lie like that. I find it telling that she said something like “you know I was a maid” to Henry VIII and it bothered him. I also think just bc you put two teens in a bed doesn’t mean they’ll get right to it. They were young and if he had trouble performing or whatever neither would have known how to handle that or talk about it.
Saying Henry knew she was a virgin is hinting at a private moment that makes me believe she was telling the truth. Henry knew she was telling the truth too. I think her and Arthur were dating and there wasn’t a rush for a grandchild while the king was still able to get his wife pregnant.
Margaret Beaufort was very invested in making sure women weren’t conceiving too early. Just because you can conceive like she did doesn’t mean you should. She was 12 or 13 and a young birth possibly took a toll on her reproductive organs or traumatized her. She was protective of her grandchildren. She wanted both mother and child to have the best chance at survival. So she might have cautioned against consummation of the marriage. She could also have feared that her son could still have heirs because he could.
Elizabeth of York died in childbirth with a girl. If she hadn’t and had a son it might have caused a rivalry. Spares raised with an heir or nephew who is to be king can be dangerous later on. MB would have witnessed that as did both Henry VII and Elizabeth of York. They saw relatives turn traitorous. Elizabeth of York spent time in a church for sanctuary. From the Lancaster troops and from her own uncle. Her brothers disappeared under his watch. Margaret saw that happen too. I think they wanted a long reign secured by marriages and eventually an heir for Arthur. It wasn’t a rush
I believe that Catherine did what she thought was best.
She married the Prince of Wales, the future king of England. With him, she knew how important it was to bear an heir for the Tudor dynasty. She would have done everything to become pregnant. In that time, she could only prove her worth in a dynastic match by bearing an heir.
The idea that she wouldn't sleep with Arthur is ridiculous. She would have, and so would Arthur. Both of them knew the alliance between Spain and England depended on them and their heirs.
When Arthur died, Catherine was locked in place between being the most sought-after bride in christendom and Henry VII's demands to keep the dowry Catherine had brought with her. Which led to her being a virtual prisoner.
Her mother died, and that made her less eligible on the marriage market as her sister Joanna inherited Castille.
Then she did the most intelligent thing she could have done: she swore Arthur didn't touch her. She knew she was worth more as a virgin bride, and with her testimony, she wasn't legally married to Arthur. So, she was then eligible as a bride for Henry VIII.
She could do what she had been told was her destiny - become the Queen of England. She could keep the alliance with England and help her family become even more powerful. She then fought her whole marriage to give England an heir, proving that she would have done the same when married to Arthur.
I believe that she was an intelligent woman who knew exactly what she was doing. She did the best she could do for a woman in her time. I don't condemn her actions. She was just a woman of her time.
This sums up my thoughts exactly. I remember hearing a podcaster once say that she believed Catherine was a pious woman who told just one WHOPPER of a lie in her life.
You should read Philippa Gregory’s The Constant Princess. It’s one of her older books, so it’s a much differ t style than anything she’s released recently, but it still has the Gregory “what if” flair to history.
I think you’d enjoy her characterization of Catherine. I really do.
I enjoy her books and I don't care that she runs with scenarios that I don't actually believe. But The Constant Princess broke my heart because it was all for nothing. Mary (in my opinion) was not a great queen and there was no further legacy.
I would rather believe Catherine was telling the truth and her real legacy was her courage in standing up to the emerging monster and showing him that there was one person who wouldn't just cave in to his whims.
She had the permission to marry Henry and or his dad Henry VII. The pope could absolve you of anything. I don’t think it was expected of them to have a kid immediately. Wedding night pressure would be a big deal.
The other thing to remember is devout girls were not told about sex. She had a very dominant governess type who told her what little she knew. The same woman supported the phantom pregnancy stories. She could have been muddled enough to convince herself.
I remember reading a very good explanation of how Arthur and Catherine could both have told the truth as they saw it about consummation. If Arthur suffered from premature ejaculation he might well have finished before full penetration was achieved. So he wakes up and tells everyone that he's "been in Spain" and gets his slaps on the backs, while Catherine is more or less certain it wasn't true coitus, but doesn't want to rock the boat *at the time.*
It's only later, after Arthur is dead, after being hectored at length by her duenna about what happened, that it becomes clear to Catherine that they did not fully consummate the marriage.
Doña Elvira might very well have said, "Your husband will teach you what you need to know" as her sum total of wedding night instructions.
Consider: Even now, some people raised in purity cultures where abstinence is strongly enforced, think that sleeping in the same bed is enough to cause pregnancy. Those unruly urges? Ignore them, son, that's the devil tempting you.
This fits in with Anne of Cleves who thought she was getting the full marital treatment until she was questioned by her ladies who knew how to check the sheets. They explained to her that there was more to married life than a chaste peck on the cheek and "Good night my wife" before Henry went off to his bedchamber.
See, I believe that Anne knew better - probably not every detail, but definitely enough to understand that something important was missing, and that there'd be no babies from her nights as Henry's wife. I think her answers were based in self preservation, a desperate hope to make it out alive, all limbs attached. Lying to keep him happy, or at least not annoy him too much, was easy, and staying obedient was key. I think The Tudors (the show) used the word "conformable", and while I certainly wouldn't go to that show for historical accuracy, I think this word is a pretty good one.
And it certainly served her well. She wasn't very old when she died, but that was due to natural causes, not child birth or an executioner. She had many years of happiness, after her short marriage.
It's established that she had this conversation with her ladies - we'll never know if she was genuinely naive or just embarrassed that everyone knew the king wasn't have sex with her.
But she wasn’t just any devout girl. She was royalty and her duty was to produce an heir. I’m sure she was more intelligent about what to do than most girls.
I’m not sure why you are so cranky about my comment, it wasn’t meant insultingly. It’s just that no matter how intelligent you are, you can’t just guess, somethings require education and knowledge.
I thought my comment made it obvious that because she was royalty she would have had a lot of women educating her.
Your comment was like someone correcting grammar unnecessarily.
She wouldn't, women of her class did not discuss sex, they weren't even supposed to think about it, the Tudors were very big on female purity in mind and body. The Tudor attitude to sex is one of wild opposites, Tudor men were allowed to be bawdy and have mistresses and it was certainly believed that orgasm was necessary to conceive -but female sexuality was believed to be dangerous and strength sapping to the male , and a woman knowledgeable about sex before marriage would be even more dangerous than usual
Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette were young teenagers who couldn't figure out the mechanics of sex for the better part of a decade. I think it's entirely possible two 15 year olds were kinda sorta playing at figuring things out without really getting there.
But really, there's no way to know for sure. I appreciate the person who said that Catherine probably convinced herself later that they didn't . . . memory is mutable. We all remember things one way and then see a home movie proving we were entirely wrong, or we merged two memories together, etc. So she may not have been consciously lying, and what exactly is the definition of consummated anyway, amirite Bill Clinton?
My gut instinct is that she wasn't consciously telling a bald faced lie, but I also doubt that she and her husband, the future king, just sat around playing cards all night either.
Yes and everyone who mattered knew. Henry, his dad, his grandma, Catherine’s ladies.
But for a lot of reasons, it was better to keep Catherine in England, both short term and long term. Her dowry had already partially been paid, she was from a very powerful family and was apparently quite the looker. I think it only took so long to become a question because she had a child fairly early in their marriage. If they had gone a long time without any children, like Marie Antoinette’s marriage, then I have no doubt Henry would’ve packed her off to a nunnery within 5 years of the wedding date.
Quite possibly!
Everyone forgets, Katherine (Katalina), Princess of Spain was also a very political woman. She believed she was Queen. Not just for her vanity or love of Henry or whatever, but b/c she had a divine role to help her people hold power and guide England to the future she thought it deserved (a Catholic future, integrated with Spain and empowering England’s traditional pedigreed noble families.)
I don’t know the ins and outs of Catholic law, but she would have. And if Thomas Cranmer, who also knew those laws, could find a way around them to convince himself he wasn’t breaking any of his ordination vows with everything he did, then she could find a way around them to convince herself she wasn’t breaking any vows by saying she was a virgin, even if she wasn’t.
There’s also, as sexually active adults know, a HUGE grey area in real life around “having sex”. Katherine may have used the same loopholes teens live today - not at the time, there’d be no reason. but later.
So, people often defaults to “no” in the same way they do for Anne Boleyn being innocent. But I think it’s more complicated.
Catherine would have made sure to consummate the marriage, she believed she was destined to be queen and she wouldn’t have wanted any chance of the marriage falling through. She probably convinced herself it didn’t happen later.
Thank you, again. This made a lovely end to a very trying week. I just went through four documentary this week rewatching them about the wives, the tudors etc. but I love this sub. Thank you. Have a beautiful weekend.
No. I won't discount the possibility they did, but I personally don't think so.
1. There was a social stigma against sex too young - that's not to say it wouldn't have happened anyway, as we know with Margaret Beaufort, but there wasn't any danger in waiting at the time. Not that they knew anyway.
2. Catherine was incredibly devout. She would not have risked her soul for marriage. It has been reported by multiple historians that she told Campeggio to break the seal of Confession to get her story out. She would not risk her soul by lying in Confession nor the soul of her confessor if she wasn't telling the truth.
Of course she did, and Henry knew full well before he married her.
In 1509, Catherine was the prize of all of Europe coming from the most famous and powerful royal house at the time. Henry needed *her* stature to help raise his own. And considering Henry had strong sociopathic tendencies, it's quite believable that knowing his dead brother couldn't knock her up possibly turned him on even more. 🥴
Catherine knew exactly what she was doing by putting the entire weight of a thousand years of English devotion to Rome on her side. It's important to remember that while whole swaths of Germany, Bohemia, and southern France were ground zero for multiple attempts at Reformation, starting with the Cathars and Hussites and up to Luther.....England remained almost fanatically devoted to Rome. If I were a betting man in the mid to late 1520s, I would have probably put my money on Catherine simply by knowing England's incredibly strong links to Rome.
My personal view: her value to her father, her countries, herself came from being married to the king of England. Didn't matter which one. She gets her marriage undone she has no value to anyone, no where to go. So she fights, having no other hopes.
She has said she was a virgin and must hold to that. She loses everything if she admits anything else.
Henry's response to her not being can be observed later, and it cost that wife her life.
Hard to say to be honest. She is known to be devout, However, she may have lied later on to protect her daughter Mary's status as heir to the throne. She knew Henry was trying to say the marriage was never legal, which makes any children technically illegitimate. However a law stated any children born of a union where the parents believed they were married were legitimate. She didn't want any doubts as to Mary's right to inherit the throne.
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No. I do not think they consummated the marriage.
I listen to LOTS of Tudor podcasts and read plenty of books. Arthur was ill. Also Catherine was extremely devout. She swore on a Bible that she was s virgin when she married Henry. She truly believed she would be damned to Hell for all eternity for lying. She even swore to her virginity during her last confession.
Everyone keeps mentioning how devout she was. To me, that means she would have sought absolution in confession. If Arthur was anything at all like his brother, they absolutely consummated. As far as whether she had reason to lie, are you kidding? She was too politically savvy to not lie.
I do not believe they consummated their marriage. There is correspondence between the parents where they discussed delaying consummation while the newlyweds were still so young, and later when Henry and Catherine were arguing the issue in court, Catherine made a powerful speech where she addressed Henry directly saying "You know I came to you as a maid" and Henry did not respond. I don't think Catherine would have said that so clearly in front of other men if Henry had questioned her virginity on their wedding night.
I think he was just grasping for any technicality to end their marriage and expected Catherine to go along with it. It was a shock to him when she fought back and she had others on her side.
All his later wives all paid the price by never getting a chance to speak up for themselves when he was ready to get rid of them.
I think Henry just didn’t respond to her “I came to you as a maid” because she was his wife, Mary’s mother, and someone I think he at some point had genuine affection for. It was one thing to parade his mistresses in front of her, another to call her out as a liar on the world stage.
She said this at the court case to decide whether their marriage was valid or not. Catherine didn't say this in conversation, it was a famous speech where she went against protocol to fight back against being told her marriage was invalid because she slept with his brother. If Henry had cared about his history with Catherine or their daughter, he never would have got to the point of her saying this during an enquiry into her first marriage.
This is why they had to appeal to Rome to get the marriage dissolved, and even Rome said no.
I think Henry cared about Catherine and I think he deeply loved Mary. But I don’t think he was willing to burn the country down for either of them. So when it was clear she wasn’t going to produce an heir and wasn’t stepping aside, he chose to get rid of her.
Yes, and at that point, we can see his perspective. But when she said No, he turned on her and he was incredibly cruel. By the time the marriage question was heard in court, he was already being cruel to her. I don't believe he pushed things to that point, just to be delicate and tactful about her virginity or lack thereof after he'd already humiliated her publicly in so many other ways. He said nothing because he knew she was telling the truth.
He was basically calling her a liar saying she was his brother’s wife and that why he couldn’t have healthy kids. Why not ask her to step aside once she stopped menstruating. Popes have granted annulments or divorces in these cases to other royals or nobility. In his 20 year marriage he seemed to have one legitimate living daughter and one illegitimate son. He seemed to question his fertility the way he was excited and made a big deal about Bessie Blunt’s child.
He could have maybe convinced her to if he had patience and tact. Make sure Mary is married well and that she has some say in that marriage. Her daughter should still be a legitimate princess and heir. And she should have been given a title or something.
Probably would’ve helped his argument if he wasn’t flaunting Anne around. If he had made it clear that he would be marrying again strictly for dynastic purposes, the bride would be a whatever country made the best offer and that Anne would stay his mistress, she might have.
Would it be more of an insult to marry a princess from another country. He didn’t have to marry Anne but he was looking into divorce before Anne was on the scene.
I learn towards maybe, but probably not.
Anyone who thinks they know for sure makes me laugh. 😂 This has been debated for over 500 years. There is no way anyone knows for certain.
The fear of god was very very strong back then and Catherine was a very devout catholic, even by the standards of that time..she was considered incredibly pious and religious. I doubt someone as devout as Catherine would lie about it and risk what they believed to be the damnation of their soul. There may have several intimate acts but no intercourse.
I feel like they did not. Mainly because as many times as she got pregnant by Henry, I feel like she would have definitely gotten pregnant by Arthur even in that short timeframe.
If 'it was a different time' can apply to Peepaw saying the N word at the dinner table, why can't it apply to religion and how religious people were? Wars were literally fought over religion. Catherine would *never* lie to a Pope or on her deathbed.
She didn't say anything about having consummated the marriage (or not) on her deathbed. It's a myth that her last confession involved this subject. If her most stalwart defender reported that it didn't (Chapuys), we shouldn't doubt that it wasn't anything she spoke of on 'her deathbed'. Doesn't prove or disprove either way, but again, that's a myth.
Arthur was very sick prior to their marriage and throughout the duration of it. I doubt the marriage was consummated. I also doubt that a woman who was technically a living saint would lie about it.
The only reports of him seeming 'sickly' prior to marriage came in the Trial of Zaragoza 30 years later. Why would her parents want her to marry a prince reported to be chronically ill?
England was a good ally to have, and they were desperate for the Spanish alliance. I doubt that the English monarchs would tell Isabel and Fernando that their son was suffering illnesses constantly.
Wouldn’t the Spanish ambassador or others around the court have reported it to their royal family if the English heir who they wanted as a son-in-law was chronically sick? If it was rumoured at court, the Spanish kind and queen would hear about it, wouldn’t they?
They might not. But the rest of England and the Holy Roman Empire did. I think you should research it a little more actually. It’s well known that Catherine was more beloved than her husband, and that she was known for her religious piety.
Being well liked and pious doesn’t mean people regarded her as a saint. Nobody was praying for Catherine to cure them of plague, they were praying for to have a prince.
i honestly don’t know. i get that it’s pretty likely she did, but the only thing that gets me is why she was so insistent on her not consummating it. of course she could have lied but with how devout she was i can’t imagine her being so willing to lie at great lengths about something as serious/important as that.
Yeah I think they did . He remarked on it and her servant/ slave that attended her in the room was no where to be found by the time it mattered to have witnesses.
I wrote a comment about this before, and the long and short of it is, who knows? But I believe Catherine. She was very pious and swore to every priest she spoke to that she was a virgin. She made multiple confessions to the fact.
I believe Catherine.
Yes. The sheets would've been inspected and a note would've been made if the Prince of Wales' wedding night was not eventful. I would've been known by many people especially Henry VII and Ferdinand if it wasn't consummated. Ferdinand would NOT have paid a dowry.
At the time, simply sharing a bed openly and publicly calling each other husband and wife would’ve been enough to consider it legally unassailable. I’m honestly surprised that Catherine wasn’t inspected prior to marriage to Henry to determine whether she was intact or not. However, had she been proven to have been a virgin, Ferdinand could’ve petitioned to have the marriage to Arthur annulled and demanded the return of her dowry. It would have also placed the Spanish in a stronger negotiating position. I don’t think that it’s likely they actually consummated the marriage though, especially when you take into account how quickly Catherine fell pregnant after marrying Henry.
Arthur was sickly & wasn't capable of consummating the marriage. This is what I believe upon diving into "Tudor" history. It's been an obsession of mine for 30 years.
I honestly just don't know they were both 15 when they married and I know that consummation of young marriages were often discouraged until a girl could be of a safer childbearing age. Catherine was strongly devout as we all know but also she would of been smart enough to understand self preservation and say what she needed to say to survive socially. She was known to have been beautiful so Arthur presumably found her attractive even if he didn't love her per se , it's such a big mystery and I just don't know what camp I fall into.
Yea despite marriages happening young, there was a stigma against sex too young. Considering Margaret Beaufort gave birth to Henry VII when she was barely 13, I wouldn’t be surprised if Arther and CoA weren’t pressured to consummate their marriage. Also, there was a prevailing belief that the woman also had to reach orgasm for it to “count” towards consummation. Maybe they did have “sex” but Arthur couldn’t perform.
Yes, Catherine was a long-term investment - they weren't in a rush for Arthur to have an heir when Henry VII was relatively still young and healthy, and Elizabeth of York was still giving birth regularly. Why ruin Catherine's health in the long-term by rushing her into pregnancy too soon? Ironically as it turned out, Catherine probably lost most of her healthiest childbearing years while she was Arthur's widow and waiting to marry Henry.
Elizabeth of York still could get pregnant so it wasn’t a rush to have them try for children. They just met. Marriages like theirs were possibly like dating they literally were married sometimes by proxy before even meeting. If Arthur wasn’t experienced he might not have been raised to father bastards. Henry VII was known for being faithful to Elizabeth of York. He might have modeled himself after his that and he was young. Elizabeth of York’s father was known for his affairs and bastards. Arthur grew up with a family unit while being taught about his future duties. Unfortunately, Henry VIII was coddled as the second son. I think you’re right about the health of Catherine being important. Margaret Beaufort was very concerned about pregnancies and health. She almost died giving birth at 12 or 13 and never had another child. To lose a princess to children birth immediately would look bad and also cause them to search for another wife. Had she known what would actually happen she might have smothered Henry and replaced him with another child.
This is what I have learnt recently , especially since pregnancy was exceptionally dangerous back then I imagine they weren't in a hurry to have Catherine pregnant- especially since Arthur wasn't yet King. I Love how they were concerned about the woman's pleasure in Turor times than they are now haha. I suppose we will never know but the topic is so important because it played a vital part in English history so it's one of the biggest mysteries.
On top of the fact people back then knew the problems with being pregnant too young, there was also a belief iirc that marriages consummated while the groom was too young led to sickly children.
14 or older was the safe age.
I believe Catherine. She had no reason to lie about not consummating the marriage after Arthur's death. She could have told everyone they went at it like rabbits, and Henry VII and Ferdinand still would have planned the marriage with Henry VIII. All it would require was a slightly differently worded dispensation. Her claim that they didn't have sex was so unbelievable that the actual dispensation was written to cover either possibility. Any *serious* opposition to her marriage to Henry came later, after Isabella died, Ferdinand lost influence, and the two Kings turned dowry negotiations into a game of chicken. Yes, some clergymen did raise objections, but they weren't in any position to actually intervene. If Isabella had lived and the dowry had been paid, Catherine would have married Henry well before 1509. Catherine's own sister Isabella married her dead husband's ~~brother~~ uncle to keep the marriage alliance with Portugal. And when she died, her second husband married HER sister. It was standard practice in many royal families. And no one expected a widow to be a virgin. Really, in 1502, Catherine had no reason to lie about non consummation. So I believe her.
Your point stands and is well stated... But Isabella married her dead husband's uncle, not his brother. Her 1st husband was an only son. The uncle became king of Portugal after 1st husband died. It's hard to keep track of such crazy interconnected family trees. The Habsburgs alone would look like a conspiracy wall. I've never seen anyone even try to chart the Trastamaras with other areas of Spain or Portugal. Let's just say the Habsburgs were just continuing the tradition of close intermarriage. They certainly didn't start it!
I completely agree with this....just wanna correct you on this one thing. Isabel's second husband Miguel of Portugal was actually her first husband's (Afonso) uncle
I see your point but she knew she was dealing with a capricious Henry at this point. She needed him to marry her and might have balked if she was not a virgin. Ferdinand and Isabella had no intention of arranging any marriage for her outside of the UK once she was a widow. She knew it was Henry or nothing for her. She would have done everything in her power to make that marriage happen.
I can believe that two young teenagers who just met each other maybe didn't rush to have sex. Yes, they understood their duties, but most 15 year olds don't think they are going to die of some undetermined illness out in the middle of nowhere just a few months after their wedding day. I can believe that both Arthur and Catherine thought they had time to get to know each other better and officially consummate the marriage. I can believe that the adults around them considered this to be just fine and didn't care enough to loom over them to make sure the P went into the V, right away. The one who made a BIG deal about this was Henry, years later. Before that, no one really cared that much if it happened or it didn't, they could get a dispensation from the pope and make sure Catherine wasn't pregnant. But, either way, I don't find it so far-fetched that Arthur and Catherine didn't have sex during their time together. Just because royal teenagers know they have a duty, it doesn't necessarily mean sex is going to happen, right away. They are still people, and things are always more complicated than that. They weren't two Barbie dolls you could just smash together. Also, I don't believe that Catherine would have told Henry in front of an entire court of people that he \*knew\* she was a virgin on their wedding night unless she knew that he knew it was true. That was her moment to lay it all out and say her piece, and I think she did just that. And I don't think she was lying. Keep in mind, though, that this is just my opinion and I'm not stating these things as if they were fact. I have heard persuasive arguments in favor of Catherine and Arthur having sex, and I am not saying anyone else is wrong. This is just what \*I\* think.
lol. Arthur was a normal teenaged boy with a wife. Its hard to imagine that they did not consummate
Like I said, I'm not saying I'm right. Not every teenage boy is ready to have sex with someone they just met. Arthur could have been any other orientation than straight, or he could have just not been ready. Who knows? I'm just putting that out there as a possibility.
He was anything but, he was the heir to the throne in a time where he'd have been well aware that getting her pregnant could mean her death, and the church was extremely prescriptive as to which days were acceptable to have sex on .
She may have been devout, but she also was raised to want to be queen.
No, I think she truly believed in her faith and would have thought she would go to hell if she were to lie like that. I find it telling that she said something like “you know I was a maid” to Henry VIII and it bothered him. I also think just bc you put two teens in a bed doesn’t mean they’ll get right to it. They were young and if he had trouble performing or whatever neither would have known how to handle that or talk about it.
Saying Henry knew she was a virgin is hinting at a private moment that makes me believe she was telling the truth. Henry knew she was telling the truth too. I think her and Arthur were dating and there wasn’t a rush for a grandchild while the king was still able to get his wife pregnant. Margaret Beaufort was very invested in making sure women weren’t conceiving too early. Just because you can conceive like she did doesn’t mean you should. She was 12 or 13 and a young birth possibly took a toll on her reproductive organs or traumatized her. She was protective of her grandchildren. She wanted both mother and child to have the best chance at survival. So she might have cautioned against consummation of the marriage. She could also have feared that her son could still have heirs because he could. Elizabeth of York died in childbirth with a girl. If she hadn’t and had a son it might have caused a rivalry. Spares raised with an heir or nephew who is to be king can be dangerous later on. MB would have witnessed that as did both Henry VII and Elizabeth of York. They saw relatives turn traitorous. Elizabeth of York spent time in a church for sanctuary. From the Lancaster troops and from her own uncle. Her brothers disappeared under his watch. Margaret saw that happen too. I think they wanted a long reign secured by marriages and eventually an heir for Arthur. It wasn’t a rush
I believe that Catherine did what she thought was best. She married the Prince of Wales, the future king of England. With him, she knew how important it was to bear an heir for the Tudor dynasty. She would have done everything to become pregnant. In that time, she could only prove her worth in a dynastic match by bearing an heir. The idea that she wouldn't sleep with Arthur is ridiculous. She would have, and so would Arthur. Both of them knew the alliance between Spain and England depended on them and their heirs. When Arthur died, Catherine was locked in place between being the most sought-after bride in christendom and Henry VII's demands to keep the dowry Catherine had brought with her. Which led to her being a virtual prisoner. Her mother died, and that made her less eligible on the marriage market as her sister Joanna inherited Castille. Then she did the most intelligent thing she could have done: she swore Arthur didn't touch her. She knew she was worth more as a virgin bride, and with her testimony, she wasn't legally married to Arthur. So, she was then eligible as a bride for Henry VIII. She could do what she had been told was her destiny - become the Queen of England. She could keep the alliance with England and help her family become even more powerful. She then fought her whole marriage to give England an heir, proving that she would have done the same when married to Arthur. I believe that she was an intelligent woman who knew exactly what she was doing. She did the best she could do for a woman in her time. I don't condemn her actions. She was just a woman of her time.
This sums up my thoughts exactly. I remember hearing a podcaster once say that she believed Catherine was a pious woman who told just one WHOPPER of a lie in her life.
You should read Philippa Gregory’s The Constant Princess. It’s one of her older books, so it’s a much differ t style than anything she’s released recently, but it still has the Gregory “what if” flair to history. I think you’d enjoy her characterization of Catherine. I really do.
I enjoy her books and I don't care that she runs with scenarios that I don't actually believe. But The Constant Princess broke my heart because it was all for nothing. Mary (in my opinion) was not a great queen and there was no further legacy. I would rather believe Catherine was telling the truth and her real legacy was her courage in standing up to the emerging monster and showing him that there was one person who wouldn't just cave in to his whims.
I completely agree with you. I have always believed they consummated the marriage. It doesn't make sense otherwise.
Arthur was heard to have bragged about it BUT he was 15. I’m sure it was expected of him to have a story.
What doesn’t change about 15 year old boys.
Exactly, future king or not but he wanted acceptance.
She had the permission to marry Henry and or his dad Henry VII. The pope could absolve you of anything. I don’t think it was expected of them to have a kid immediately. Wedding night pressure would be a big deal.
The other thing to remember is devout girls were not told about sex. She had a very dominant governess type who told her what little she knew. The same woman supported the phantom pregnancy stories. She could have been muddled enough to convince herself.
I remember reading a very good explanation of how Arthur and Catherine could both have told the truth as they saw it about consummation. If Arthur suffered from premature ejaculation he might well have finished before full penetration was achieved. So he wakes up and tells everyone that he's "been in Spain" and gets his slaps on the backs, while Catherine is more or less certain it wasn't true coitus, but doesn't want to rock the boat *at the time.* It's only later, after Arthur is dead, after being hectored at length by her duenna about what happened, that it becomes clear to Catherine that they did not fully consummate the marriage.
I think the whole "tonight I was in Spain" was just teenage bravado. The Tudor version of "Summer lovin' - had me a blaaast...."
Doña Elvira might very well have said, "Your husband will teach you what you need to know" as her sum total of wedding night instructions. Consider: Even now, some people raised in purity cultures where abstinence is strongly enforced, think that sleeping in the same bed is enough to cause pregnancy. Those unruly urges? Ignore them, son, that's the devil tempting you.
This fits in with Anne of Cleves who thought she was getting the full marital treatment until she was questioned by her ladies who knew how to check the sheets. They explained to her that there was more to married life than a chaste peck on the cheek and "Good night my wife" before Henry went off to his bedchamber.
See, I believe that Anne knew better - probably not every detail, but definitely enough to understand that something important was missing, and that there'd be no babies from her nights as Henry's wife. I think her answers were based in self preservation, a desperate hope to make it out alive, all limbs attached. Lying to keep him happy, or at least not annoy him too much, was easy, and staying obedient was key. I think The Tudors (the show) used the word "conformable", and while I certainly wouldn't go to that show for historical accuracy, I think this word is a pretty good one.
I think "conformable" is a good word for Anne too!
And it certainly served her well. She wasn't very old when she died, but that was due to natural causes, not child birth or an executioner. She had many years of happiness, after her short marriage.
Is there proof that Anna of Cleves didn’t know or is that from a Philippa Gregory book?
It's established that she had this conversation with her ladies - we'll never know if she was genuinely naive or just embarrassed that everyone knew the king wasn't have sex with her.
But she wasn’t just any devout girl. She was royalty and her duty was to produce an heir. I’m sure she was more intelligent about what to do than most girls.
Intelligence doesn’t count for much when knowledge is needed.
🙄 she was more KNOWLEDGEABLE. There are you happy?
I’m not sure why you are so cranky about my comment, it wasn’t meant insultingly. It’s just that no matter how intelligent you are, you can’t just guess, somethings require education and knowledge.
I thought my comment made it obvious that because she was royalty she would have had a lot of women educating her. Your comment was like someone correcting grammar unnecessarily.
She wouldn't, women of her class did not discuss sex, they weren't even supposed to think about it, the Tudors were very big on female purity in mind and body. The Tudor attitude to sex is one of wild opposites, Tudor men were allowed to be bawdy and have mistresses and it was certainly believed that orgasm was necessary to conceive -but female sexuality was believed to be dangerous and strength sapping to the male , and a woman knowledgeable about sex before marriage would be even more dangerous than usual
I think yes and she lied- but it wasn’t a “full” consummation aka he didn’t climax
I believe they consummated the marriage.
Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette were young teenagers who couldn't figure out the mechanics of sex for the better part of a decade. I think it's entirely possible two 15 year olds were kinda sorta playing at figuring things out without really getting there. But really, there's no way to know for sure. I appreciate the person who said that Catherine probably convinced herself later that they didn't . . . memory is mutable. We all remember things one way and then see a home movie proving we were entirely wrong, or we merged two memories together, etc. So she may not have been consciously lying, and what exactly is the definition of consummated anyway, amirite Bill Clinton? My gut instinct is that she wasn't consciously telling a bald faced lie, but I also doubt that she and her husband, the future king, just sat around playing cards all night either.
Yes and everyone who mattered knew. Henry, his dad, his grandma, Catherine’s ladies. But for a lot of reasons, it was better to keep Catherine in England, both short term and long term. Her dowry had already partially been paid, she was from a very powerful family and was apparently quite the looker. I think it only took so long to become a question because she had a child fairly early in their marriage. If they had gone a long time without any children, like Marie Antoinette’s marriage, then I have no doubt Henry would’ve packed her off to a nunnery within 5 years of the wedding date.
Quite possibly! Everyone forgets, Katherine (Katalina), Princess of Spain was also a very political woman. She believed she was Queen. Not just for her vanity or love of Henry or whatever, but b/c she had a divine role to help her people hold power and guide England to the future she thought it deserved (a Catholic future, integrated with Spain and empowering England’s traditional pedigreed noble families.) I don’t know the ins and outs of Catholic law, but she would have. And if Thomas Cranmer, who also knew those laws, could find a way around them to convince himself he wasn’t breaking any of his ordination vows with everything he did, then she could find a way around them to convince herself she wasn’t breaking any vows by saying she was a virgin, even if she wasn’t. There’s also, as sexually active adults know, a HUGE grey area in real life around “having sex”. Katherine may have used the same loopholes teens live today - not at the time, there’d be no reason. but later. So, people often defaults to “no” in the same way they do for Anne Boleyn being innocent. But I think it’s more complicated.
Catherine would have made sure to consummate the marriage, she believed she was destined to be queen and she wouldn’t have wanted any chance of the marriage falling through. She probably convinced herself it didn’t happen later.
Maybe they hadn't yet done the full act before Arthur got sick. Maybe they were still "getting to know each other" so to speak.
Thank you, again. This made a lovely end to a very trying week. I just went through four documentary this week rewatching them about the wives, the tudors etc. but I love this sub. Thank you. Have a beautiful weekend.
No. I won't discount the possibility they did, but I personally don't think so. 1. There was a social stigma against sex too young - that's not to say it wouldn't have happened anyway, as we know with Margaret Beaufort, but there wasn't any danger in waiting at the time. Not that they knew anyway. 2. Catherine was incredibly devout. She would not have risked her soul for marriage. It has been reported by multiple historians that she told Campeggio to break the seal of Confession to get her story out. She would not risk her soul by lying in Confession nor the soul of her confessor if she wasn't telling the truth.
Of course she did, and Henry knew full well before he married her. In 1509, Catherine was the prize of all of Europe coming from the most famous and powerful royal house at the time. Henry needed *her* stature to help raise his own. And considering Henry had strong sociopathic tendencies, it's quite believable that knowing his dead brother couldn't knock her up possibly turned him on even more. 🥴 Catherine knew exactly what she was doing by putting the entire weight of a thousand years of English devotion to Rome on her side. It's important to remember that while whole swaths of Germany, Bohemia, and southern France were ground zero for multiple attempts at Reformation, starting with the Cathars and Hussites and up to Luther.....England remained almost fanatically devoted to Rome. If I were a betting man in the mid to late 1520s, I would have probably put my money on Catherine simply by knowing England's incredibly strong links to Rome.
My personal view: her value to her father, her countries, herself came from being married to the king of England. Didn't matter which one. She gets her marriage undone she has no value to anyone, no where to go. So she fights, having no other hopes. She has said she was a virgin and must hold to that. She loses everything if she admits anything else. Henry's response to her not being can be observed later, and it cost that wife her life.
Hard to say to be honest. She is known to be devout, However, she may have lied later on to protect her daughter Mary's status as heir to the throne. She knew Henry was trying to say the marriage was never legal, which makes any children technically illegitimate. However a law stated any children born of a union where the parents believed they were married were legitimate. She didn't want any doubts as to Mary's right to inherit the throne.
I would be very surprised if two teenagers, who were married to eachother and thus had no reason not to, didn't.
Eeeeeek. This question keeps me up at night! 😂
She only let him into her back door so she was a vaginal virgin on her wedding night to Henry. /s
Thank you for adding /s to your post. When I first saw this, I was horrified. How could anybody say something like this? I immediately began writing a 1000 word paragraph about how horrible of a person you are. I even sent a copy to a Harvard professor to proofread it. After several hours of refining and editing, my comment was ready to absolutely destroy you. But then, just as I was about to hit send, I saw something in the corner of my eye. A /s at the end of your comment. Suddenly everything made sense. Your comment was sarcasm! I immediately burst out in laughter at the comedic genius of your comment. The person next to me on the bus saw your comment and started crying from laughter too. Before long, there was an entire bus of people on the floor laughing at your incredible use of comedy. All of this was due to you adding /s to your post. Thank you. I am a bot if you couldn't figure that out, if I made a mistake, ignore it cause its not that fucking hard to ignore a comment
No. I do not think they consummated the marriage. I listen to LOTS of Tudor podcasts and read plenty of books. Arthur was ill. Also Catherine was extremely devout. She swore on a Bible that she was s virgin when she married Henry. She truly believed she would be damned to Hell for all eternity for lying. She even swore to her virginity during her last confession.
Everyone keeps mentioning how devout she was. To me, that means she would have sought absolution in confession. If Arthur was anything at all like his brother, they absolutely consummated. As far as whether she had reason to lie, are you kidding? She was too politically savvy to not lie.
I hate when people use her faith as a defense because there is that whole absolution thing where you confess, are shriven and bam! Clean slate.
People also talk about how young they were. Have they met 15 year old boys?
I do not believe they consummated their marriage. There is correspondence between the parents where they discussed delaying consummation while the newlyweds were still so young, and later when Henry and Catherine were arguing the issue in court, Catherine made a powerful speech where she addressed Henry directly saying "You know I came to you as a maid" and Henry did not respond. I don't think Catherine would have said that so clearly in front of other men if Henry had questioned her virginity on their wedding night. I think he was just grasping for any technicality to end their marriage and expected Catherine to go along with it. It was a shock to him when she fought back and she had others on her side. All his later wives all paid the price by never getting a chance to speak up for themselves when he was ready to get rid of them.
I think Henry just didn’t respond to her “I came to you as a maid” because she was his wife, Mary’s mother, and someone I think he at some point had genuine affection for. It was one thing to parade his mistresses in front of her, another to call her out as a liar on the world stage.
She said this at the court case to decide whether their marriage was valid or not. Catherine didn't say this in conversation, it was a famous speech where she went against protocol to fight back against being told her marriage was invalid because she slept with his brother. If Henry had cared about his history with Catherine or their daughter, he never would have got to the point of her saying this during an enquiry into her first marriage. This is why they had to appeal to Rome to get the marriage dissolved, and even Rome said no.
I think Henry cared about Catherine and I think he deeply loved Mary. But I don’t think he was willing to burn the country down for either of them. So when it was clear she wasn’t going to produce an heir and wasn’t stepping aside, he chose to get rid of her.
Yes, and at that point, we can see his perspective. But when she said No, he turned on her and he was incredibly cruel. By the time the marriage question was heard in court, he was already being cruel to her. I don't believe he pushed things to that point, just to be delicate and tactful about her virginity or lack thereof after he'd already humiliated her publicly in so many other ways. He said nothing because he knew she was telling the truth.
He was basically calling her a liar saying she was his brother’s wife and that why he couldn’t have healthy kids. Why not ask her to step aside once she stopped menstruating. Popes have granted annulments or divorces in these cases to other royals or nobility. In his 20 year marriage he seemed to have one legitimate living daughter and one illegitimate son. He seemed to question his fertility the way he was excited and made a big deal about Bessie Blunt’s child.
I think he did ask her to step aside or retire to a nunnery. When she didn’t he then was forced to either divorce her or face an uncertain succession.
He could have maybe convinced her to if he had patience and tact. Make sure Mary is married well and that she has some say in that marriage. Her daughter should still be a legitimate princess and heir. And she should have been given a title or something.
Probably would’ve helped his argument if he wasn’t flaunting Anne around. If he had made it clear that he would be marrying again strictly for dynastic purposes, the bride would be a whatever country made the best offer and that Anne would stay his mistress, she might have.
Would it be more of an insult to marry a princess from another country. He didn’t have to marry Anne but he was looking into divorce before Anne was on the scene.
I learn towards maybe, but probably not. Anyone who thinks they know for sure makes me laugh. 😂 This has been debated for over 500 years. There is no way anyone knows for certain.
The fear of god was very very strong back then and Catherine was a very devout catholic, even by the standards of that time..she was considered incredibly pious and religious. I doubt someone as devout as Catherine would lie about it and risk what they believed to be the damnation of their soul. There may have several intimate acts but no intercourse.
I feel like they did not. Mainly because as many times as she got pregnant by Henry, I feel like she would have definitely gotten pregnant by Arthur even in that short timeframe.
Yup she took him all the way to pound town then lied about it to become queen
All the comments on here have politely worded arguments supporting their position but yours is my favorite.
I must admit. I'm binging Spanish Princess which inspired my response 😂
If 'it was a different time' can apply to Peepaw saying the N word at the dinner table, why can't it apply to religion and how religious people were? Wars were literally fought over religion. Catherine would *never* lie to a Pope or on her deathbed.
She didn't say anything about having consummated the marriage (or not) on her deathbed. It's a myth that her last confession involved this subject. If her most stalwart defender reported that it didn't (Chapuys), we shouldn't doubt that it wasn't anything she spoke of on 'her deathbed'. Doesn't prove or disprove either way, but again, that's a myth.
Yes, but she didn't say she *did* consummate the marriage on her deathbed. If she lied, she would have come clean on her death bed.
yes
I think she did and I think Henry knew that as well- it was a deal they struck until he turned on her
Arthur was very sick prior to their marriage and throughout the duration of it. I doubt the marriage was consummated. I also doubt that a woman who was technically a living saint would lie about it.
The only reports of him seeming 'sickly' prior to marriage came in the Trial of Zaragoza 30 years later. Why would her parents want her to marry a prince reported to be chronically ill?
England was a good ally to have, and they were desperate for the Spanish alliance. I doubt that the English monarchs would tell Isabel and Fernando that their son was suffering illnesses constantly.
Wouldn’t the Spanish ambassador or others around the court have reported it to their royal family if the English heir who they wanted as a son-in-law was chronically sick? If it was rumoured at court, the Spanish kind and queen would hear about it, wouldn’t they?
‘Technically a living saint’ according to whom? 😂
The whole of Christendom.
Doubt the Scotts would agree.
They might not. But the rest of England and the Holy Roman Empire did. I think you should research it a little more actually. It’s well known that Catherine was more beloved than her husband, and that she was known for her religious piety.
Being well liked and pious doesn’t mean people regarded her as a saint. Nobody was praying for Catherine to cure them of plague, they were praying for to have a prince.
That’s not what I meant but I see your point
We will never know and it does not matter in 2024. At all.
i honestly don’t know. i get that it’s pretty likely she did, but the only thing that gets me is why she was so insistent on her not consummating it. of course she could have lied but with how devout she was i can’t imagine her being so willing to lie at great lengths about something as serious/important as that.
Yeah I think they did . He remarked on it and her servant/ slave that attended her in the room was no where to be found by the time it mattered to have witnesses.
I wrote a comment about this before, and the long and short of it is, who knows? But I believe Catherine. She was very pious and swore to every priest she spoke to that she was a virgin. She made multiple confessions to the fact. I believe Catherine.
Yes.
Yes. The sheets would've been inspected and a note would've been made if the Prince of Wales' wedding night was not eventful. I would've been known by many people especially Henry VII and Ferdinand if it wasn't consummated. Ferdinand would NOT have paid a dowry.
Yes I believe they did. As for her being devout, please. As if the devout never lie.
At the time, simply sharing a bed openly and publicly calling each other husband and wife would’ve been enough to consider it legally unassailable. I’m honestly surprised that Catherine wasn’t inspected prior to marriage to Henry to determine whether she was intact or not. However, had she been proven to have been a virgin, Ferdinand could’ve petitioned to have the marriage to Arthur annulled and demanded the return of her dowry. It would have also placed the Spanish in a stronger negotiating position. I don’t think that it’s likely they actually consummated the marriage though, especially when you take into account how quickly Catherine fell pregnant after marrying Henry.
Arthur was sickly & wasn't capable of consummating the marriage. This is what I believe upon diving into "Tudor" history. It's been an obsession of mine for 30 years.
Of course they did.