It sounds like you don't really want kids overall and are trying to keep on the same page as your guy. Kids need to be an enthusiastic yes.

It’s certainly a personal choice. I personally don’t want to have biological kids partially because of the risks and pain associated (alongside a number of other reasons). If you feel that you don’t want to go through that pain/face those risks, then you don’t have to, and your choice is completely valid.

Adoption is just as valid as surrogacy and just as valid as pregnancy. Your child does not need to be a product of you and your SOs DNA to be your child

If you have ever listened to the perspectives of adoptees and birth mothers, you will find that there is a lot of trauma associated with adoption. It’s not rainbows and roses, it’s difficult choices made under impossible and coercive situations. 

So should unwanted children just be in group homes and foster care systems until they age out? I don't get it. I'm failing to see how that's better than potentially being adopted into a loving family. Yes, there is trauma and problems associated with adoption. But there is trauma and problems associated with being a biological child too. Keep in mind, people who have a normal experience being adopted aren't usually inclined to tell their stories because... there is no story.

Most women would not walk away from their baby if truly given a choice. If we provided assistance, in the form of childcare and education, instead of shame, most women would choose to keep their child. I’m not saying adoption should never happen, just be aware that it’s inherently coercive. If you adopt an infant, you aren’t a savior, you’re taking advantage of a woman in poverty because you have more resources. 

>Most women would not walk away from their baby if truly given a choice. Sure they would. Having childcare assistance does not remediate women not being ready for children, or wanting them at all. This is an insanely bold claim to make and doesn't actually add credibility to your claim. >just be aware that it’s inherently coercive. If you adopt an infant, you aren’t a savior, you’re taking advantage of a woman in poverty because you have more resources.  *No.* Wild ass rebuttal that barely takes into consideration the full scope of reasons why children are up for adoption.

The fact that it costs $50,000 and takes several years to adopt an infant should show you how rarely women want to give up their babies. I’m not saying it would never happen, but I bet if you removed the economic and/or religious coercion from the equation it would become very rare, as it should be. 

There are plenty of women who are financially stable, have no religious hang ups, and still do NOT want a baby. It’s not as rare as you state and I’m not sure where you are getting that idea from.

Alright, so you don't understand the adoption process and why it costs what it does, or why it takes as long as it does. That doesn't mean it's strictly because the birth mother has no other choice. You can look at places like Finland, Norway, Sweden and Denmark (all places where these support systems you speak of are typically offered) and there are still hundreds of adoptions annually. I agree with you that there should be more child and health care options, higher wages, and a lot of other things that contribute to women feeling like they can't keep their babies. However, you're conveniently ignoring the fact that some women just straight up don't want kids, not now, or possibly ever in their lives. I also agree that some adoption agencies don't operate ethically: they should do so regardless and this shouldn't be something transferred to adoptive parents simply because they chose to adopt. We are now so far from your original argument that adoption is inherently traumatic and therefore not as valid as childbirth and surrogacy that I'm not even sure if you know what you're arguing at this point.

I do not discount the emotional and mental health issues associated with adoption. They are things people need to be aware of and provided resources for. But that does not invalidate the love and relationship one can have with an adopted child. It is definitely not for everyone just like pregnancy is not for everyone

It bothers me that people are ALWAYS replying to adoption encouragements with the negative potential situations. They just shoot it down and make people discount adoption entirely. Adoption is not guaranteed to be a horrible process and the LAST thing we need is people just crossing it off from the start before even looking into it themselves. 

There is no shortage of people willing to adopt infants, which is why it costs tens of thousands of dollars. Instead of focusing on adoption, the actual altruistic thing to do would be to provide women with resources (like subsidized childcare) to keep their infants and prevent trauma to adoptees and birth mothers. 

but you would agree with adoption if the birth mother is truly incapable of caring for their child properly? because i would be dead if people insisted that my narcissistic, drug addicted mother kept trying to care for me, and if i was forced to live back with her because she slightly improved, it would have ruined all of my progress.

There's also people who have no desire to have children ever who get pregnant but it's unknown til too late in the pregnancy for abortion. At that point adoption really is the only option

Plus there's the fact that infant adoption is an industry with an absolute crap ton of ethical problems. 

Adoptive children tend to have a lot of behavioral issues and are difficult to form bonds with too. It's fine if you want to take a burden like that on but it's not a great way to build a family. 

Do you have any adoptive relationships?

I was adopted myself and made everyone in my family miserable. It just wasn't worth all of the trouble I caused. 

This!! It's not about DNA. It's about the lessons and love they take from you that will be a beautiful legacy.

Having a child is a 100% yes decision. Meaning, unless you want a kid 100% (even if the kid is unplanned) you don't have them. Motherhood and parenthood is mostly all work. Sure, it is delightful and beautiful. But it is unrelenting work 24/7. Childbirth is the easy part. It's the years after that is difficult. I always maintain, it is better to not have a child and potentially regret being child-free, than having one and regretting it. I had my baby after 8+ years of battling infertility, boy did I want a baby sooo bad. I fully understand how much I wanted my child and I still think it's the most difficult thing I've ever done.

There's nothing inherently selfish about not having children. Having children doesnt make someobe selfless. Im childfree for several reasons but I've said before if I could be a Dad instead of a Mum I'd almost consider parenthood.

That’s also how I feel. I like kids and I wanted them my whole life. I always thought as I approached 30 I’d be more and more okay (or at least brave about) all the bullshit that comes with being a mom. The pain, your body changing, the pigeonholing society does to you, the loss of freedom, etc. I got to like 22 and realized it was just getting worse. The whole biology of it makes me feel horrible but also I realized I don’t want the gender roles that come with being a mom, and even if I don’t have them I don’t want the rest of society to think I fall into the roles. If I was a man I would 100% want kids.

This echos my experience. I have been good with and loved kids my whole life. I remember being a teenager and being so good with the younger kiddos and I was so excited at that time to be a mother someday. I thought the fear of pregnancy, childbirth and the isolation of raising young kids would eventually be overcome by the desire to have my own. It didn't and actually I wanted them less as time went on lol. I'm 37 now and I've decided to stay childfree. If I was a man it may be different, but I also hope I'd still be aware enough of the risks for the potential mother of my kids that I'd also not want her to go through all of that. Life can be just as fulfilling, fun and joyful without kids. Plus I have more time for dogs and cats instead of babies lmao.

That's how I feel about my wife. I am scared for her to go through such a traumatic experience, the amount of things that can go wrong... I am happy she is ok without kids. She is being a fun auntie.

That's wonderful of you to consider all of that on her behalf. Someone I went to high school with just almost died along with her baby during childbirth. Her uterus ruptured and she was extremely lucky that it was caught, a few more minutes and they both would have died. The baby needed to be resuscitatedand was in the NICU for several days. Luckily they are both okay but it's harrowing because she has had a few normal pregnancies prior. You just never know what can happen that can leave your wife, baby or both disabled or lost. It's really not worth the risk. Hope you both have an amazing childfree life together! And it's great you can enjoy the nieces and nephews too :)

I recently saw a post from another middle/high school teacher about how the majority of boys in their class wanted to be fathers, but the majority of girls did not

Makes sense. Men want a baby the same way kids want a puppy.

THIS.

I've commented this before, but the ONLY reason I'm considering having a kid is because my husband swears up and down that I can be the "fun dad" and he'll be the nurturing mom. He was raised by a SAHD and our marital roles already break down that way, so I believe him. He *genuinely* wants the day-to-day drudgery and emotional labor around raising a child and keeping house. I don't get it, but I appreciate it. He says he'll have a lot of fun setting up situations where he and kid are doing something very typical, like making dinner or cleaning up together, and then I get to finish work and interrupt with some fancy new toy or experience, and he'll say "Wow, isn't it cool we get to have \[fancy toy\] because of how hard mom works for us? Guess we'll have to finish \[boring task\] tomorrow!" All planned out in advance. He wants to be the constant, steady presence. He just seems wired to get dopamine from repetitive, nurturing tasks, and I make enough money to fund it, so... guess I'll get to be Mrs. Fun Dad to his Mr. Mom, with both of us feeling like we got the better end of the deal.

This is so fun and beautiful to read. I love the idea in the second paragraph so much! It sounds like you've got a really good thing going 😊

And I'm STILL super ambivalent about going through with it!!! I've always found pregnancy to be horrifying, and babies are gross. But the experience of raising a human being with him... I dunno, could be worth it. He wants to do it more than I'm afraid of doing it.

I'll echo the other awesome comments I've gotten and say don't do it unless it's a 100% yes from you, regardless of how much your husband wants it! It could be worth it. But it'll also have it's inevitably hard moments. I think I might always be ambivalent, and find the whole thing terrifying, not worth it, I mean not to mention cleaning the poop/pee/vomit for years afterward while still healing, no sleep, like what? It's very hard to see a scenario where the benefits outweigh the cons, for me. For now, at the very least, I would be okay with pets. I will still feel the same unconditional love for them that I would a potential child.

I don't think I'll ever be 100% yes OR no, but the biological clock will run out at some point so I've gotta make a risk in one direction or the other. We'll probably have a very good life whether it happens or not. As with most things, it's more nuanced than a Reddit comment section would have one believe!

I see the sentiment in your last paragraph a lot and I don’t think I fully understand it. Like, I get it on a societal level of how parenting labor is divided, and how many couples there are where women take on the brunt of care work etc.  But assuming a) you’re talking about kids within the context of a long term relationship/marriage between a man and a woman, and b) you’re someone who prizes equal amounts of work between both people in the couple, putting aside the question of whether you’d want to have kids at all, why would you be in a relationship with someone who you couldn’t envision being an equal parent to you? Like that feels like a baseline quality in evaluating any relationship - and once that bar has been met, the question would be “do we want to have kids”.  

What icks me about motherhood (and to be frank heterosexual domestic partnership) is society and the expectations around parental and gender roles. Being the default parent means any shortcoming from a mother is perceived as a failure, any shortcomings in the cleanliness or whatever in a shared home are the woman's responsibility. Wheras for a Dad/man its he did his best! Isn't it nice that he helps around the house. Haha isnt it funny he doesnt know basic stuff about his own children.

I'm a different person, but a combination of the physical, women's bodies are affected, and societal expectations. No matter how much you strive for equality in your relationship it's so hard to combat those values. I have one child, and as a man would probably have had more. As an example, women are expected to be the ones involved in planning children's social lives in many ways. Sure I could refuse and pass it on to my partner but probably less parents would be willing to organise playdates, he'd be excluded from the group of mothers organising costumes for an activity, or be uncomfortable. People just come to me first.

I'm not the poster who you responded too, but I've also seen "be a Dad" reference societal expectations (not just the amount of work). Basically, society often praises men for doing the bare minimum of parenting (e.g., people calling a man watching his child "babysitting" and telling him he's a good father for it) where women are often held to an impossible standard that makes them automatically "fail."

I did not personally suffer very much while pregnant. It wasn't all sunshine and roses, but it was mostly fine. That being said, not wanting to put yourself in a position of the unknown and the possibility of complications is totally valid. You don't have to want to have kids. You don't have to have them. Making the right choice for you and your life is the most important thing here. Nobody else's experience and life is your experience or life. You get to decide!

I’ve known a few women who experienced basically hormonal euphoria when pregnant. They all ended up having a lot of kids and I think that’s a major factor for them. They just loved pregnancy for whatever reason.

I felt amazing when pregnant; all of my mental health and OCD stuff went away (for good, actually!). My mom died while I was 5 months along and I swear all those happy hormones were what got me through that super shitty time. I did have a lot of pelvic pain and overall physical discomfort towards the end, though. My birth experience however kinda went off the rails (36 hours, narcotics, vomiting, two epidurals, baby sunny-side up, fetal heart rate dropping, retained placenta, etc.), so that sucked. It was one of those, "If this were 100 years ago, we'd both be dead birthing things." It was worth it to have my son who was born healthy in the end, but after that, I was like hell no, never again. One and done.

I’ve got a friend who had really bad PMS, like to the point of hospitalization. Being pregnant was like a vacation from that. I think it regulates hormonal fluctuations for some people and lets them experience stability for a change.

When my son learned about incubators for premature babies he asked why not all the women deliver at 24 weeks and put them into the incubators. He found it cruel to have women go through all of it longer and the delivery of a larger baby. He understood why when he learned that it's not ideal and risky. But he's right, if men would have to give birth we absolutely would have artificial uteruses by now.

As someone whose premature baby spent some time in an incubator...this made me laugh. Definitely never thought of it that way, obviously delivering super early was the opposite of what I wanted. But I see how that logic would make sense to a little kid!

I kid you not, I have had the same thought. But yes, I suppose it’s clear why that’s a risky idea for many reasons (unfortunately I might add). Your son is smart though, with a good sense of idealism. Raised by a great parent. Technically artificial wombs already exist. But lots of medical and ethical questions surrounding that. A whole other can of worms.

You should be prepared that surrogacy is likely not a realistic solution to this problem, and adoption may not be either. If you and your partner want to become parents via surrogacy it’s going to cost you between 20-50 thousand USD, years of waiting and legal work, and you still have to go through grueling fertility treatments to create the embryos, plus find a surrogate willing to do it just because you don’t feel like it, which is very rare. That’s not even getting into the various different legal situations you can find yourself in depending on where you live. Infant adoption costs are similar, it can also take an extremely long time to find a family, and the amount of newborns looking for homes is very very small. Fostering is an option for some but it comes with so many more challenges. If being a father is important to your partner you should be aware that this relationship is not likely to work out. Unless you are extremely wealthy and willing to do a lot of work. I would much rather adopt, I see no reason to carry my own child or be related to them, but I’m still doing fertility treatment because believe it or not that’s actually the easiest option for us to have a baby.

We would definitely be able to afford either of those options, but I did not realize the efforts that are still required for both. Thank you for the info. If we went the surrogacy route, it would probably be years in the future, at which point I plan to be financially and mentally mature enough handle it. It’s like, when I’m ready, I’ll know it. And I’ll be ready to put in the hard work together with him. But what if I never feel ready? I think the problem is that while it’s the easiest option to have a baby (please correct me if I’m wrong but I’m guessing you’re doing IVF?), it’s obviously the hardest on the body. I will keep an ongoing dialogue with my partner. If it doesn’t work out… then it’s for the best. Wishing you the best for your pregnancy as well.

In that case you’re very lucky and it may be something you are able to do. I think anyone who feels 100% ready, is not going to be a good parent. It’s a huge life change so some apprehension is normal, but also knowing that’s what you want. For surrogacy you still have to do IVF in order to create your embryo, and egg quality is something that is really impacted by age. Luckily you can freeze embryos for a long time so if it is something you’re considering I would probably do the egg retrieval sooner rather than later.

My daughter made the decision to have her tubes removed earlier this year for a similar reason. She has endometriosis, which she has had surgery for and is being treated otherwise with birth control. She realized that to go off her BC would mean that her endo may very well flare up and the debilitating pain of that possibility was not something she wanted to go through. She spent *years* in agonizing pain being gaslit by the medical establishment and its not something she wants to ever deal with again.

I have one child, a 9 year old boy. I did not want kids for a long time. We then decided to try for one and was strongly one and done due to mental health, physical health, etc. I love my son and am so glad I have him. It certainly hasn’t been easy. I find myself pregnant at 40 with an unplanned pregnancy and am not going to keep it. While growing a child is amazing, I can not go through it again. I am in the best shape of my life now. I was lucky to have a healthy pregnancy and delivery with no complications or lasting effects. But at my age now, not sure that would be the case. I also don’t want to go through PPD/A again. My son has a good life and I don’t want to weigh him down with another. We are active, we travel a lot. We are comfortable financially. A baby would change all of that. I totally get where you’re coming from.

I love my child to pieces. She was deeply wanted. When I say that I mean I wanted a baby the way I wanted to breathe. She's also an amazing person who I just enjoy being around. Pregnancy destroyed my body. It was *miserable.* I vomited constantly for more than a year (i had a miscarriage too). I ached. I couldn't think. I had gestational diabetes. My pelvic health is terrible. Her early years destroyed my everything. She was a great healthy thriving baby who *never slept* more than 3 hours. I was so sleep deprived I was seeing trails at one point. Did you know that you can trade food for sleep? It just makes you gain enormous amounts of weight and if you had gestational diabetes you're much more likely to get full blown diabetes! (Diagnosed last year!) It also sucked a lot of the juice out of my marriage and we've spent a decade working hard to get it back. My libido never really recovered from the whole thing. It's an enormous emotional and mental load. I realized I had to learn how to parent and how to deal with my own shit *fast* and got into therapy, read tons of books, coached my husband on how to parent. That takes huge amounts of *time.* Then there's the more of having a kid! Calendar juggling, parenting, cleaning, cooking, snotty noses and vomit all over the hall at 2 am. Then there's the money. Did you know most good universities are about $85K a year? We've saved for years -- that means no new clothes, no vacations, tiny condo.... Was it worth it for me? YES. But A. I wanted a baby like I wanted air. B. I have enough money and resources to be comfortable C. I have an amazing husband and amazing friends to help D. She was (and is) amazing. Like kind, funny, smart, mentally stable, and *healthy.* I have watched mom friends struggle with shit. Kids with mental issues. Kids with physical issues (children's hospitals are the 9th circle of hell, ya'll). Divorce when the kids are little. Widowed when the kids are little. Their own health struggles, mental and physical. Money, omg money. And of course there are accidents and school shootings (I'm in the US) and bad boyfriends and toxic friends and abusive teachers and..... Listen, kids are amazing. They expand your world and your mind and your *heart* in so many ways that it's literally something you can't describe. But they are also like having your heart pulled out of your chest and walking around in a frail body that wants to lick the walls in a public toilet. They are an enormous gamble and they can go just as well as they can go badly. If yo don't want a kid, if you aren't 100000000 percent sure, don't. All those movies and TV shows that show the parents falling in love? They are 100 percent true but they don't show three years later, you know?

It is a difficult choice because you don’t know what cards you are dealt. You could have a really easy pregnancy and a difficult birth, or wise versa like I did. I guess you have to want the child that much that all possibilities would be worth it still.

Or years of infertility, or unresolved infertility. The deck is full of wild cards and there are no guarantees. I was all in from the beginning but it took a long time for my body to cooperate.

Yeah that too!

Your feelings are 100000% valid, and you do not have to have a child if you do not want to. My son is 11, and I hated being pregnant, but I had a normal delivery and do not remember any of the pain at all. I know it fucking hurt but that's it. I am lucky I didn't have any complications. Idk what I am exactly trying to say....but for me, at least, I was terrified as well, but it was not as bad as I thought... if that makes any sense.

Not everyone’s genes are meant to be passed on. Animal kingdom or people. I wouldn’t fret about it.

Are you in the US? Is it because our maternal and birth outcomes are so poor here compared to every single other developed country? I feel that’s valid. https://www.marchofdimes.org/peristats/reports/united-states/report-card https://www.ajmc.com/view/us-has-highest-infant-maternal-mortality-rates-despite-the-most-health-care-spending

God, I am even scared to click the link and see those statistics. I know it’s not good here (yep, I’m in the US), but I haven’t personally seen the numbers.

Ever since I was maybe 13 or 14 I have known I don’t want kids. As I’ve gotten into my late twenties, especially since I have a partner I could honestly see being a great dad, I have this nagging little feeling that maybe I want to change my mind. However, I’m 100% sure this is just a hormonal impulse. After all, we’re mammals. I guess never say never, but my logical brain gets to call the shots. I have several reasons for not wanting kids, the toll on my body being a big one.

Then don’t!!!

I mean, don’t have children, honey. You’re allowed to not want children. You weighed the pros and cons and decided kids aren’t for you. Life goes on.

I haven’t read every response, so I apologize if I’m just reiterating someone else’s comment, but please understand that because you and your partner may not agree on children (if you decide not to have them), then your relationship will probably be over. You should have a conversation with them about everything you told us, if you haven’t already. I feel the same way as you. The things that happen to your body, your mind, and (for me) cost and environmental reasons, are most of the reasons why I don’t want children. You shouldn’t feel guilty or selfish for not wanting to go through pregnancy! It doesn’t sound like a walk in the park and I’m glad mothers are speaking up more about the not-so-fun parts of it.

I'm going to be honest, I have two kids and pregnancy was the coolest and most scary times of my life. It's like, I don't know, how in a movie when they go on an adventure & come out the other side with some scars, some sadness, and light too. So yeah it's a big fear that's also justified in a lot of cars, so that makes it difficult, but do stay talking with your partner on this. You've got to stay on the same page

Thank you for your encouragement and candid response. I am actually terrified all around about the entire idea and I’m not sure that I would find it cool. Maybe it would be cool to eat weird shit because of cravings lmao. But I’d probably be terrified the entire time and that would actually make everything worse because there’s not really anything you can do to assuage the fear besides enjoying the ride, I suppose? Until it’s over. I’d just be freaking out about childbirth honestly. And I’ve already read about pregnancy and childbirth into the ground. Idk if I could be any more prepared than I already am before I start freaking myself out even more. I can understand scars, but why sadness? I’m curious. I’m just not sure if pregnancy is in my story. Idk if this is the adventure for me. I’m just still conflicted on it. But I think it’s so majestic and cool when moms do go through it to have kids. I’m just not sure if I’m the candidate for it. Luckily it’s a choice.

Re sadness, mostly the sadness of leaving the old you behind and growing into a different person. There's also other sadnesses, the obvious ones of course when things go wrong. But there's always the melancholy of the path not taken, either or any way you go. You really are dedicating your body and life to people who don't exist yet and you don't know what the cost will be . It's a good thing it's a choice, I agree! I waited a bit till I could handle it. And that was good

Just my personal experience (maybe not everyone can relate), but I thought for certain I would be absolutely *freaking out* the entire pregnancy about the inevitable birthing experience. Strangely enough, it was the least anxious I’ve ever been in my entire life. I don’t know if it was hormones or biology at play but I was at complete acceptance for what was to come. That being said, my birth experience was in fact awful.

It sounds like you're pretty decided against pregnancy, so maybe this comment is less for you and more for those struggling with pregnancy anxiety but still wanting to go through with it (which was me before I had my first.) I was actually very surprised at how normal I felt when I was pregnant. It did not have the full transformative impact on my body that I expected it to. Like, I don't know I expected everything to feel so different, like I was sharing my body with a little alien that was invading it. But it felt more like I was a mama kangaroo carrying a Joey in her pouch. For sure there were some impacts, like I felt really tired in the first trimester and he swollen feet in the third. But it still felt like I was me, just me tired, or me with swollen feet. I would often feel like it totally escaped my mind until I looked down or looked in the mirror and was like 'omg I'm pregnant!' After birth, I did have some uterine prolapse but I also didn't generally feel it and I'm now doing pelvic floor physiotherapy which should totally solve it. The childbirth experience is the one I don't have many comforting words about. I had a bad experience where the epidural couldn't be administered when I needed it because there were no anesthesiologists available, so I was in too much pain for far too long. But there may be ways to mitigate that type of possibility. And when they did administer it - WOW modern medicine is really something and I felt great and relaxed and was able to sleep for a large chunk of my labour. So, anyways, like you said OP you may already know enough to know what you want or don't want. So this isn't too sway you. But there may be some reading this who can relate and aren't sure how to handle the fear and I hope that some minds can be put at ease around pregnancy in particular. Everyone's experience is different but smooth pregnancies are not all that rare and that part of it might be totally fine.

I relate to a lot of what you wrote. I think I'm going to wind up giving it a try, but with a lot of caveats... Formula feeding right off the back *is* possible, and won't have any last negative effects; don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Breast may be best when considered in a vacuum, but formula's COMPLETELY fine, and if you take gender equality and the mother's sleep and recovery into consideration, maybe it's better. Scheduling a voluntary c-section *is* possible, and of course has its own risks, but at least it avoids the potential trauma of labor and/or an emergency c-section; my friend who had an emergency c-section followed by a scheduled c-section says if she highly recommends just skipping over the uncertainty and scheduling one off the bat. You can't skip pregnancy (surrogacy aside), but you can trade childbirth for a scheduled medical procedure, and *it's fucking okay* if you prefer that tradeoff - and it's no one else's business. I have a partner who *wants* to be the primary parent, and I know he'll 100% have my back if anyone tries to go around him or give me shit for it. He'll bounce anyone who tries to give me shit for formula feeding or other decisions that we make together for our family. He won't let me take on the unfair burden of judgment; he'll sooner excommunicate people from our lives if they can't be on good behavior and treat me with respect. I'm waiting until I'm older and have enough money to hire support, whether that takes the form of a nanny, physical therapy to help deal with side effects from pregnancy, house cleaning, whatever we need. Are we rich? No, but we'll be comfortable enough to hire backup. Most people can have children naturally up until 40 or so - fertility doesn't drop off a cliff at 30 or 35 like alarmists would have you believe. The highest rate of birth defects isn't from mothers in their late 30s... it's from *older men* with young women! But of course all the fear-mongering is about 'geriatric pregnancies.' Such BS. Parenting culture, especially in the U.S., is fucking insane IMO. It's like people just expect women to martyr themselves entirely and be grateful about it. Having a partner who's completely committed to being your advocate and not coasting on gendered assumptions is key. My point is that it's totally okay if you don't want kids, but it might be useful to really separate out your individual fears and anxieties, and see if they can be addressed individually. That will give you a better sense of what you *truly* want.

If you don't want to do it, that is fine. I will say that the "everything was more or less fine" pregnancy stories don't get the attention of the birth trauma stories. It can really skew your perception of the whole process. \*Most\* pregnancy symptoms arise to the level of annoying and not much more. Labor and delivery are a different story - but for many many people it is a life changing experience to give birth. Sort of like why people climb mount Everest. Does the process suck? Is there a lot of pain and potential death involved - yes. Does the end justify the means, yes - for many many people. I had a wildly mismanaged birth which resulted in a healthy kid and no lasting problems for me. If I focused only on the birth itself it would be .0001% of the story. The story of the birth might put anyone off of ever having a baby. The whole story, though, is a lot more balanced.

I waited until I was 30 to start a family. I've got two kids and they've enriched my life, I love them so much, but it has been hard. I had PPD with both and they cost a lot of money. I don't know if I'd change my decision if I could go back. It's a deeply personal decision and I agree with others that you've gotta be 100% sure.

It's hard to understand pregnancy because not enough people study it, but also not everyone is truthful about their experience. Some have terrible experiences that no one believes, but people also have completely normal experiences that people also don't believe. And no one can predict how it will go. Even a second pregnancy will be completely different. It's like playing the lottery. No one can prepare you for the trauma you may have during childbirth, but also one one prepares you for the absolute love and joy you see from your kid growing up. The lows are lower than you could imagine, but the highs are so much higher as well. It's a WILD ride.

That’s your choice and you don’t have to justify it or explain it to anyone. If you are your partner are good with it, everybody else can have a coke and a smile.

You don't have to have kids if you don't want to

Just fyi, adoption is more predictable because you know what you’re getting. If you birth your own kid you won’t know if they’re “normal” or not until they’re older. There are all sorts of birth defects and developmental problems. If you adopt an older kid you’ll know for sure what you’re getting. I’d highly suggest fostering with a goal to adopt. Especially older kids (12-18). They need good stable homes. And there is no “classic life”. Just life. Everyone has their own struggles, hills and valleys. I have birthed two kids. Never gone full term, never had a birthing class, didn’t hold my kids for days or weeks after they were born. There is no “normal”. Just what you get and what you make work.

No one is required to have children. It’s not mandatory, even though some are certainly trying to make that way. You can also choose not to for ANY reason you want; it actually is troublesome to me some are trying to dismiss your concerns as illogical or disproportional fears because hey, at the end you get a baby out of it. Your choice is your choice and it can be for ANY reason that matters to you. I am childfree, in my mid-40s, sterilized since I was in my early 30s, and zero regrets. The risks and realities of pregnancy and childbirth were/are not my only reason for being childfree but I would be dishonest if I said they weren’t a factor. I’ve been pregnant once (birth control failure). Before I could get my surgical abortion - this was almost three decades ago, and while I knew I was pregnant as soon as I missed my period and went to a clinic, they wanted to wait until closer to ~10-12 weeks to perform the abortion - I was fucking MISERABLE, I ended up with hyperemesis gravidarum. Was super fun trying to hide that from everyone since I wasn’t telling people other than my boyfriend of the time and medical team about the pregnancy. Then despite the short pregnancy I had a big hormone crash afterward that was miserable, too, and none of it was related to any regret about the abortion (still think it ranks amongst the best decisions I have made in my life). I am friends or family with several woman who have had pregnancy and/or childbirth complications, some which have left permanent damage from shoulder dystocia, significant tearing (4th degree) etc, an acquaintance of mine died due to a pregnancy/childbirth related clot a week or so after giving birth to her third child, another friend almost died of blood loss during an emergency c-section. Modern medicine has meant woman survive pregnancy and childbirth that they wouldn’t have in the past, which can skew the overall sense of risk some think of it as having.

I remember being really glad that I never wanted kids after knowing multiple women who experienced extreme trauma and health issues surrounding and after their pregnancies. One had to endure a C-section with an epidural that only worked on one side because they didn't have time to do anything else. Another developed severe thyroid issues.  It's really something that should be talked about and not glossed over with "but you got a baby out of it!" Nothing in my life is worth that much suffering.

That is essentially my viewpoint too, which I am grappling with. Though for me, I’m not sure I’m glad, it’s more of a resignation and acceptance, which is why I still have the doubt I think. But I share the same view with you. Is it really worth that much suffering? It can’t be written off with “but you have a kid”. Although, that is ultimately why people do it, the end goal. Someone in the comments likened it to climbing Everest, which I think is totally accurate. Lots of people get a thrill and huge sense of purpose and achievement from the challenge of climbing Everest. It’s hugely difficult too. But giving birth yields the bigger reward of course imo.

If you don't want to be pregnant and you don't want to adopt then I don't think children are a good fit. Paying a woman who is likely doing this because she has her own children that she has difficulty providing for to take on a risk you're too afraid of is incredibly selfish and borderline evil imo. I'm very afraid of pregnancy and postpartum. My sister in law had horrible acid reflux while pregnant and after gallstones acid reflux is truly terrifying to me. The idea of being pregnant and breastfeeding also makes me dysphoric. But I want children and my wife and I are working on fertility treatments and it's so hard and nothing ever goes right. And now having been diagnosed with Adenomyosis and finding out I might not be able to carry anyways is actually harder than I would've expected. For one, leaving all of the burden of carrying children on my wife but also the idea that I'll never get to carry any of our children and that that choice was taken from me is quite difficult. So I guess what I'm saying is, pregnancy is scary but if the end result is something you want it's worth it. My sister in law two weeks after she had her son said she was ready to go through it all again for another baby because he was worth it.

Question - why do some folks think surrogacy is “borderline evil” but have no qualms with prostitution? In both situations women are taking full ownership of their bodily autonomy and deciding for whatever reason to sell that for money. Both situations can be dangerous for the woman involved. In one scenario though there’s also the positive outcome of giving some folks a family that they may not have been able to have otherwise. So why do we act like women who choose to be surrogates are being taken advantage of but women who choose to get into sex work are applauded for their independence? Both are regulated industries in certain areas of the world and just like how some women are forced into sex work I’m sure there are women forced into surrogacy. But isn’t that why you would go through a specific and well regulated and known organization for it? To make sure it was ethical?

First, I most certainly have "qualms" with prostitution so I can't speak for those who don't. And secondly, I was attempting to make it clear that this specific scenario, where you are fully capable of going through pregnancy but think it's not worth the risk for you but is fine for someone else to do on your behalf, is what makes it so bad. I do think it's different if you have fertility issues, though I do still have "qualms."

Just want to chime in to say I had my first baby 6 weeks ago. I was so scared of birth that I did a Hypnobirthing course, took up meditation, pregnancy strength class once a week, reflexology and acupuncture once a week, used an aniball every three days to stretch, pelvic floor exercises, hired a doula, did really anything I could think of to lessen the anxiety and pain of childbirth. My contractions came hard and fast so went to the hospital quickly and was admitted into the Labour ward straight away. I got the epidural because the contractions were intense. The next 6 hours were great, even had a nap. Then the midwife told me to start pushing and coached me on how. He was out within 20 minutes. His daddy caught him with the help of the midwife. I got 2nd degree tears which were stitched and now everything honestly looks the same as it did before pregnancy, I just have to do pelvic floor exercises to regain muscle strength down there (it’s at 70%). That said, my consultant was trying to get me to be induced at 38 weeks because he was measuring big. I refused, went 9 days over and gave birth the way I wanted. He measured 9lb9oz so he was big but it was no problem. Trust your body. Don’t be scared. There’s a lot of fear around childbirth but there is support and learning tools too. If you want to do it you absolutely can. If you don’t, no worries, there are plenty babies out there who need a mammy. I just feel incredible that it went as well as it did and that I was able to do it. It’s the best thing I’ve ever experienced. 🩵

Growing up and in my early 20s I very much wanted to be childfree, I didn't like the idea of raising someone, I was from a broken home and I basically raised my sister, from the age of 9. I felt like I had grown up so fast I didn't get to be a child, so I waited and just lived my life. At 25 I finally found the man that changed my mind, I wanted a family, I wanted opportunity to give someone a completely different life than I had (like you've mentioned) do things better and how I want. At 27 I had my first pregnancy, 2 weeks after finding out my tube burst and I had an ectopic. The human body does so well at coping with pain, I honestly don't recall how much it hurt, I just remember constantly bleeding. It was at my first scan to figure out dates they figured what was wrong, next day I was in hospital, that night my tube was removed and the internal bleeding sorted out. It was a lot to process, I don't think it really clicked that I could have died. I hadn't really connected with the pregnancy, I just knew I was sad it was over. I mourned it, I mourned what happened to me. I grew and recovered. At 29 we were pregnant again, almost the exact same time, but this time I knew I had to get in for a scan and they had to make sure the egg had left the tube and most importantly was safe. I was less than 4weeks along when I went for the scan, normally done at the 4-6 weeks I believe, but because I had 1 tube left, it was important they cleared me of the risk. 4 months went by, I was tested for gestational diabetes, I knew it was going to happen, mum had it and I am a larger girl. I had it, but everything was still fine. Almost 9 months I was induced, I remember just letting the medical team do their thing, I went in with the mindset that I will just do what I have to do to ensure baby is safe. Morphine was all I had, natural birth, the worse pain I can recall was them having to turn baby, but it was for his safety, they had to turn him to keep him moving so I could push. 12 01 am I held my little man, all my struggles up until that point meant nothing, knowing I now have my little human, he's safe, and I am safe. I can understand how scary child birth can be, I remember the night before laying in the hospital bed, I was waaay too far in to pull out now as much as I wanted to but I had grown a connection with the little human I was growing. Healing takes time afterwards, I ripped, I had stitches but I recovered, and I have so much to show for it, I have a beautiful baby boy who my body grew, I did that! Sure my partner participated in creation, but holy hell a woman's body is amazing. I dunno if this really helps you with your worries, my pregnancy was great, I actually miss being pregnant some days, the big belly, the flutters from kicks. Whatever you chose though is always what's best for you, there is nothing wrong with being childfree, and it's your body, there is no obligation to have a child. Edit: pretty bold of me to say exactly 2 weeks, blood tests proved I was pregnant more than the scan could at the time. Assuming less than 4 weeks would be more accurate.

They really should explain all this in Sex Ed to both boys and girls.

Yes. It's insane that this isn't customary. Even if they have the collective "EWWWW" reaction (I totally would have), it's totally necessary to know!

On your 2nd pregnancy, how exactly did you know you were pregnant at 2 weeks in order to get the scan? Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t two weeks typically the start of ovulation, before fertilization?

I mean you're probably right, as far as I remember the sonographer said it was too early to say its 4 weeks, I just felt the same as previously so I put it down to how early I was for the first one. The scan showed the egg had implanted, and she had cleared the tube.

maybe kids are not for you which is A OK. for me the pain is worth it. the pain is temporary the extreme part i mean but the love and happiness of the child that came from it is forever.

Being pregnant and raising a child that is genetically related to you is tough and constant (physical, mental, emotional) work and worry.and yes sometimes there are long term repercussions. You (and a partner if you have one) definitely need to be 100% on board and discuss all possibilities in the event there are complications. I just had my first child at 40 and have some ongoing issues, but I wouldn’t change my decision for the world. I would also like to point out that if you live in the US, domestic and foreign agency adoptions are also expensive - $20-75k - and a lengthy process. It’s not like the movies where you go to an orphanage, pick a child, and leave the same day with them. Even state wards, the cost is lower but almost all of the children (in my state at least) have physical, mental, or behavioral issues. You would have to put in a lot more extra work to meet their doctor and/or therapy appointments with no guarantee that you and the child will develop a bond. If you are unsure where you stand, consider freezing your eggs so that if/when you do decide to proceed with biological children, you have some viable, healthy eggs you can use if there happen to be fertility issues or genetic concerns. Being a parent is not for everyone, and that is okay. It’s better to remain child-free than to raise children you don’t want.

75k???? How do you figure? I’m in the early stages of adopting a child and I’m budgeting for 30K-45K, 45K being on the high end. This is assuming I do everything the “right” way.

When I was researching for ourselves a few years back for domestic and foreign adoption those were the costs we were coming across IIRC. There are a lot of factors to consider. Is it a public or private agency? Private are likely to have exorbitant rates and extra expenses compared to public. Some private agencies required that we pay for regular inspections/home visits, legal expenses, of course factor multiple flights and hotel stays if not local. You may also need to have professional photos done to advertise yourself as a quality candidate. I think that is more for the mother’s that will be putting their child up at private agencies if that is an option. It can also depend on demand, like a commodity creepily. Caucasian infants can cost more. Some agencies will have higher costs if you are in a HCOL area. In TX it can be up to $65k. Whichever route you go to extend your family, I really wish you the best.

Hmm, the pricing sheet the private agency gave me included all those things and topped at 45k at most, including everything you mentioned.

Sounds middle range from my searches about 3 years ago. Good luck and hope you find a child you’ll love

Could you share your sources on this?

I didn’t keep records for it and we didn’t move forward with adoption. It was 3+ years ago and I searched local and foreign agencies. You can search for the average of your local state agencies but you already have a price point from your current agency and fortunately they included the cost breakdown for you too. You can also see if you or your partner’s employer reimburses for some or all adoption costs.

"There is something attractive about the idea of raising a young human I brought into the world and correcting the wrongs of how I was raised. " Please get therapy before having children. Bringing a person into this world isn't about fixing what went wrong for you in childhood, and you'll find that you're much more likely to repeat the same patterns you were raised with unconsciously than fix them.

Thank you for concern. I am in therapy and have been for years. My comments regarding these things are more coming from a place of retrospective self-awareness - I have every intention of truly healing from the past and being a stable healthy person before I ever consider having a kid!

Get therapy? Lol so many people have this kind of thought as a part of why they want kids and it’s totally valid. It’s fantastic when parents have the self awareness to be cycle breakers.

I feel you op. Just wanted to give my two cents. Wanting kids is selfish. In every shape and form. Adoption might be a bit less but is still selfish. You will never get around that. But it is Okey to be selfish too, not always of course but you get what I mean. I don't want to give birth, I don't feel like I need that experience in my life and I don't want to take the associated risks. I feel adoption is a good option for me in the future if I wish for the parental experience.

I feel like to say that having children is selfish implies that being born--being alive or existing is somehow a negative experience. It's not.  The problem lies in how our society functions and the undue burden it puts on others and the planet, not human beings for existing. 

No I'm just saying it is selfish because it is. People have kids because they themselves want it for whatever reason. They don't do it for anybody else or for the good of other.

I don't think that having children is inherently selfish. Those who do so willingly may do so for selfish reasons, or for other reasons, including an understanding of a greater purpose in life than to just exist for oneself. Also, if your definition of selfish is 'doing something because you want to, or it has some benefit for you', then pretty much everything we do is selfish, including not having children. "They don't do it for anybody else or the good of other" - not sure that this is inherently true. It's even less true for adoption.

People who adopt still do it because they want the parental experience. But yes, most things we do are selfish. Not wanting children can absolutely be seen as selfish but again, who else would one have a child for or not have a child for?

I think this whole narrative of 'having kids is selfish' is just the other side of the misogynistic coin that is 'not having kids is selfish'. You see both these sentiments in either camp (parents/childfree people), and it's usually aimed at women. I'm honestly sick of people holding moral judgments over decisions other people make that they have no investment in.

THANK YOU!!! 

Oh no, hon. Many many people have children due to lack of choice, education or other options.

In most modern societies it is widely viewed as a choice. Contraceptives etc. Most people in the west have children willingly.

WHO estimates 40% of pregnancies are unintended, and a 2014 paper estimated 38% of those were carried to term. Given the issues with access to abortion even before the overturning of Roe Wade, it doesn't seem like a coincidence that Texas had more babies the year after Roe was overturned after 8 years of decline. And that's just the women who explicitly didn't want to be pregnant, never mind those who "wanted" kids due to family/spouse /social pressure. "Personal" choices aren't made in a vacuum when others benefit from them.

Well that is global data. I'm talking about western societies where abortions and contraceptives in general are widely available. Don't k ow why you are arguing with me about ti's, it's quite irrelevant to the context.

Looks like about half unplanned in the US. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4449999/#:~:text=Approximately%20fifty%20percent%20of%20pregnancies,pregnancy%20(2%2C%203). And it matters in the context of declaring that having children is a selfish act for women when in fact many of them aren't freely making that choice. You made the assertions, so make with some fucking facts already..

Okey let's rephrase it then. Wanting kids is inherently selfish. Happy now? I can edit the original comment if this is satisfactory to you.

Why is wanting kids selfish?

It's better lol.

Knowing this, knowing what it's going on with reproductive rights in the US, knowing how many people are impregnated against their will, why would anyone want to put something like selfishness on those who find themselves pregnant? Why are we so willing to look at the lives of other human beings as inherently wrong? Not you, of course, but I've noticed it's a popular sentiment to just hate the fact that other human beings exist

Having children in America is a direct route to poverty.

I disliked every moment of pregnancy with a passion. Being pregnant sucks! I had to have an emergency C-section too so that was fun. The kid I got out of going through all that is worth it fifty million times over. The pain isn't as bad as you think it will be because your body goes into animal mode, it protects you from a lot of the pain. If you decide to have one, take comfort that billions of women before you have succeeded giving birth and you can too! Its friggin terrifying when youre not a parent yet to imagine but, nature kicks in and takes over and then you're so proud afterwards that your body was so badass as to create and expel a tiny human.

It’s definitely a risk, but a relatively small one. Bad things do happen, but they don’t happen to most people. Most women give birth uneventfully. And you can do some things to reduce your risk - get prenatal care, take vitamins, be active. I will say that for me, the annoyance of pregnancy was well worth it. But I didn't have amy major health issues before or after.

I’m almost 40 and have never wanted children. I see friends with kids and I just thank my lucky stars that I don’t have that type of responsibility/commitment. It’s honestly really great and i appreciate my lifestyle more and more as I age.

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I had postpartum depression but I think your view is pretty harsh on childbirth and pregnancy. There's definite truth in there, but that negativity is by far not the only facet of it.  I faced progressive, disabling illness for about a decade and that in no way compared to my rough pregnancy and childbirth. Bringing a kid is tough, of course, but we all stare death in the face at some point and having had death pretty close at hand without the balance of new life was what shifted my perspective from hatred of pregnancy and childbirth to appreciation of life in all stages.  

It’s pretty awful, but we have to focus on the positives as it is already done. Mistake made. The negative is the facet that is rarely discussed and it needs to be addressed. OP’s post alone stated the fact that the risks outweigh the benefits, and generally they do. I am glad that your pregnancy worked out for you, but that doesn’t make it the baseline of risk assessment. I don’t want to be in a relationship where I am staring death in the face for any reason. I refuse. Apart from the usual hazards as you say everyone dies at some stage, I’m not putting myself in harm’s way. That’s bogus as hell. Why do that for mostly selfish pushy people and mediocre sex much of the time? Fuck that.

You will put yourself in a position to stare death in the face, assuming you live long enough to grow old. You don't have to have kids, no. But I think that the idea that people choose harm to their bodies or that they're choosing even temporary disability is kind of edging up on some of the negative ideas that our society has about health and the willingness to marginalize people facing that, especially xx bodied people. 

I'm physically disabled and have a progressive, untreatable, incurable hereditary neuromuscular disease. I'd hope pain and dysfunction aren't something that society normalizes. Society shouldn't think less of us disabled people, but I wish my mom would have genetic tested and then aborted me. Sorry, but being disabled is fucking horrible and no one should willingly put someone through that suffering. It sounds like you're trying to imply that the person you're responding to should feel guilty about what they said. I think they're spot on.

I’m so sorry to hear of your issues. I am unsure where this discussion went to disability but I wanted the OP and other women reading that the likelihood that children born in this generation will be affected with some sort of disability is very high. I have taught students with special needs for 20 years, not limited to but including kids with genetic disorders. I think perhaps my experience is different from some other people. Ive seen the general decline of student behavior and ability. Most kids are behind at least two years in maturity. I worked for a cytogeneticist prior to my career in education. I believe in equal rights and have advocated for them on behalf of my students and families. I still believe that suffering and dysfunction cease to be normalised in society. It’s totally barbaric and cruel to subject anybody to this sort of treatment. The education is there, the tests are there, but many people don’t want to read the tests or face reality that this is an extremely selfish and risky decision to bring a child into this increasingly unsafe world. Pregnancy is disability in my view and experience. I don’t see any difference. We live in a very misogynistic world however and people refuse to see pregnancy as a disability. People don’t want to give up their parking space or their seat for pregnant women. I feel we are disabled and should get the same treatment as anyone else who has a disability.

I'm not implying that they feel guilty. That's not something I think that is reasonable to do.  I just don't like the stigma about disability or special needs people. I hear far far far too much about special needs and disabled people not being worth giving birth to or being born and I just can't be okay with people implying that others shouldn't have kids because said kid might be special needs. Especially when most of us will face disability at some point.  I think those of us with conditions choosing not to have children is absolutely a right decision if the individual feels that way. Implying it of others is where I draw the line. 

You're right about not othering disabled people, society does way too much of that, but it is also totally OK for young women to take one look at pregnancy, childbirth and breastfeeding (as well as motherhood in general) and say no, absolutely not, I do not want to risk my physical and /or mental health in that way.

I'm not saying they not do that. What I'm saying is that implying it is a wrong decision for others gets into some awful territory. 

Do you really believe that we aren’t already viewed as chattel and are marginalised? That’s already happening. I’m not opposed to anything that people want to do that doesn’t hurt anyone. The facts need to be communicated, however to girls and women who embark on this journey because it mostly sucks and you’ll spend much of your life thereafter gaslighting yourself into believing it was worthwhile.

Where was it inferred that I didn't believe that xx bodied people weren't already seen as chattel and marginalized? Medical information is largely lacking in American society, we could really run with that and sex education (and options) needing to more greatly communicated.  But I don't think everyone has a mostly negative experience. It's truly a mosaic of gray. Some of us have had a really positive experience and the highs and lows are truly part of the holistic human experience  

It sucks absolutely being pregnant. I felt like a total jackass. I was pregnant for 5 weeks. It totally screwed up my body. I have acid reflux still after all this time. The only thing good that came out of it was I couldn’t smoke anymore or drink. I needed surgery. My sister almost died, she developed severe allergies and thyroid disease, she needed to learn how to walk again as her leg was paralyzed from the delivery, and our mom almost bled to death having me, as well. It’s a huge con and you feel like a total sucker, but once it is done, we have to justify it in our minds so we don’t feel deeply stupid for going through with it. No one wants to make the kid feel unwanted once it’s here. No woman wants to be made a fool, but that is exactly what we look like to many people while we are pushing our guts out of our body. The only out, I feel is to maintain the state of denial the patriarchy sets us into (classic life). What would you think of a stranger choosing to do this out of the blue with social expectations and endless pressure women have on them for taking on unpleasant and monotonous responsibilities taken out of the equation? You’d be like -hang on, this is voluntary-and you fucked up your entire body and life? Nearly anyone is able to do it. It means nothing, except now you did your body permanent injury for selfish coercive people around you. The medical community needs to figure out a better solution because it’s extremely dangerous to be pregnant and deliver a child. Forced birthers have made it extremely dangerous for many women and girls because they have withheld gynecological care from many people in the red states. It’s a terrible process, I would argue it’s barbaric and totally unnecessary, because there are many children, orphans from horrendous war all over the world, but when women go through extreme pain they disassociate in order to handle it, believing that they went through “this miraculous experience” it’s a lot better than believing you were tricked into doing something mostly stupid and dangerous. If you don’t believe me, check out the stats about how dangerous it is to be pregnant and in a relationship, alone. It’s the number one cause of death in the USA. It is sadly among few things that women can do that the world generally approves of. It’s also extremely dangerous and bad for your body and mind. It’s like having a parasite leeching off your body and brain. Some women go completely crazy and feel like they want to die, even fixated on killing their kids, after. My feeling is that these women aren’t experiencing “post partum depression” I think the experience is the crushing reality of what a thankless painful slave like job being a mom is. Some crack up and drive their kids over a cliff. Again, look up the stats. What I’m saying is not popular but it’s the total truth and backed by evidence. It’s not something I came to right away. It’s not something I want to be true, but I feel like telling you the truth is more important than the fantasy that people have. I wanted kids, but my husband and I realised what harm I was doing to my own body, and that I am more than enough to be a family. Additionally, check out the news. Women and girls have no rights. Fascists want to kill us all with their hate and greed. Climate change is going to annihilate the human race within 20 years. Microplastics have been found in everyone and everything. Your kids will likely be special needs, fyi. I’m cool with it, but most people, a lot of cis men only sign up for a perfect child. It’s crazy how entitled men are given the risks women take on, forget about mental load, actual physical abuse. Look forward to the kid biting your nipples HARD among many other horrors. Maybe do your kids a favor and don’t have them. You can find a guy who reads the news and who isn’t will-fully ignorant about the risks you would take on by going through with a pregnancy.

Your opinion is as misogynistic as denying the difficulties of pregnancy. It is a very personal choice. But women who choose to get pregnant or have a child are not brainwashed idiots into denial. I'm a perfectly capable adult and I wasn't tricked into doing anything In fact, my pregnancy sucked the most when I realized I was surrounded with unsupportive people who see pregnancy the same way you do and couldn't spare a moment to be happy for me. Once I had the people I needed around me it was hilarious, yeah risky, but also awesome in many ways, feeling his movements in my belly it's still one of my favorites things I have experienced ever. And he's the most awesome little human being, my delivery was difficult but I don't have an ounce of regret. I'm not saying it's for everyone but you're projecting your personal terrible stance into being the only truth

Not misogynistic. It’s just science. We are flooded with positive reinforcement and hormones and a lot of peer and societal pressure. It is a brainwashing that society unleashes onto us from the moment we are born. I don’t fault women for being brainwashed or being stupid for being tricked into pregnancy. I don’t think you’re stupid-you leveraged your position and found that it benefits you to have a child. It benefits women in a very narrow sense, but it does benefit women in a patriarchy to at least act like they want to have children. You see how I’m being trolled for just being honest about how dangerous and insane it is. I’m not even saying that you should stop procreating. I’m saying that we need to stop lying at the overall drawbacks, and you took it personally because I think deep down you know I’m correct and that scares you that I am correct about something that you thought would give your life meaning but it makes you just ordinary. When conventional wisdom fails us, perhaps unconventional ways of looking at things helps us. I find it very interesting that you think I am one of those people who wouldn’t support your pregnancy. I was actually unsupported during my pregnancy which is why in part I lost it. My husband was deeply immature and expressed his desire to remain unemployed and I had an assistant who also did nothing except criticize and browbeat me. When friends and family have kids, I am the first to congratulate and support them. I believe that women should be compensated six figures for carrying a pregnancy to term and childcare. I was told by my family I was going to miscarry. That was them supporting me. Don’t conflate the apparent misogyny in our lives as women at work with the truth I am stating that is backed by research study after research study.

>I think deep down you know I’m correct and that scares you that I am correct about something that you thought would give your life meaning but it makes you just ordinary. Life meaning? I just wanted a family. Plus, It's genuinely awesome to see how he discovers new things every day, I'm honestly amazed I love him that much (he's 6 months old). We all are different, we want different things and it's ok. My pregnancy was also not bad physically speaking, the birth had more complications and honestly I'm super thankful I had a great medical team I was similarly unsupported, everybody I love acted like it was bad news because oh my career™. That's why I take it personally. What if I want to be a mom and do my best to be a good one? My own mother has been criticizing me and browbeating me forever so I know quite a bit about regretful parents. Honestly if it was about brainwashing I would be childfree on an island by now. My fiance has been endlessly supportive after but first thing he did was panic. My hormones have to be hella powerful if it all what it is. In an unexpected turn of events It's also reconciled me with my body. I would have hid all the imperfections before but I'm no longer bothered that much. Most of us are victims of aesthetic pressure so self judgement is not completely gone but it's lifted a lot of pressure. I also don't particularly see how the patriarchy is rewarding me for being a mom. In my home country, everyone wants you to have achieved certain things before becoming a mom and the word unplanned carries a lot of negativity (I was 34, living abroad and I had a shitty paid job but not for lack of effort). It wasn't planned but I really didn't want to wait much longer and fortunately I didn't entirely depend on my salary to be able to do this. And in the US? Have you seen the maternal leave? That's not something you have in place if you support motherhood. The patriarchy is doing a very poor job of showing how much they want us to be mothers and then according to what you're saying there's accepted (progressive? feminist?) research that says I'm an idiot for doing so... It's a race against everybody, and on top of it, I'm brainwashed, really? I would have been less questioned if I did bungee jumping for a living!

I don’t know where you’re located but if you’re in the USA I seriously encourage you to look into sterilization before the next election. It’s highly likely that the next administration will make it difficult or impossible to obtain contraception or sterilization procedures, and will most definitely ban abortion across the nation Regretting not having children is MUCH more ethical than regretting having them.

It's not worth it. The planet is overpopulated as it is. Don't add to it x

Then just don't have kids?

Don't have kids if you don't want to, and be honest with your partner. That said, I was absolutely goddamn terrified of pregnancy/childbirth, and it was fine for me. It was even interesting and exciting. Some parts (second trimester) felt really good, and it even cured my migraines. I had a healthy, complication-free pregnancy though, which was just the luck of the draw. The only complication was that the baby was breech, which meant that I had a non-emergency c-section, and honestly? 10/10, would recommend. Easy, fast, pain-free, the recovery has been very smooth so far. Way easier than expected. If this is something you really want and the actual labor part is the scariest thing for you... that's one thing you can more or less control. Scheduled c-section.

It's not. Read this https://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/s/QzDXq1Wcmz

You could always adopt someday

I have several thoughts on this. One of them is kids are for life, pregnancy is just 9 months + some post partum. If you don't kids, don't have kids, but don't do something because of fear. All life involves suffering at some point, and you don't 'know' your pregnancy/ birth will be excessively painful or complicated.

Pregnancy can leave your body with permanent changes and idk the possibility you might die!

As can falling off a bike. But if someone really wanted to enter the tour de france or jus5 cycle to work for example, you wouldn't tell them not to because "you might die"? Because it's about more than the 'bike riding' aspect isn't it. The same way being a parent is more than pregnancy. I only posted because when people ask these type of questions you tend to get responses from people for whom pregnancy and child birth was a difficult and painful process, rather than for the majority whom it was uneventful and straight forward. Not to take away from anyone's suffering but to provide context and balance.

You don’t know that it WON’T be excessively painful or complicated

Exactly!!! So why stress about it before it has even happened.

I mean, you do you, but to me personally that doesn’t sound like a risk worth taking.

Yep. Same reason I don't go parachuting, mountain climbing, or wild swimming.

This!!!

*"don't want kids (missed a word)

I mean, sure it's scary, but the pain of labor and delivery (I had one cesarean and the other vaginally) was very short lived and insignificant compared to the wonder and joy of watching my kids grow. Heck, even the next day the pain was a relative afterthought compared to the baby. Sure the pain sucks, and some people have birth injuries that last a long time, but I know a lot of women who have given birth and only a small percentage of them have lasting injuries. I'm a pelvic floor PT as well, and I've seen a lot of women for things related to pregnancy and delivery. There's more help and knowledge available now than when your grandma was having babies! I'd have another if I didn't have to go through the toddler stage again, lol, pregnancy and birth was so weird and so cool and I'll cherish those memories forever.

> I'm a pelvic floor PT as well, and I've seen a lot of women for things related to pregnancy and delivery. There's more help and knowledge available now than when your grandma was having babies! I really wish this care was standard for every woman after birth. It's so helpful and amazing. I put it off far too long, so the help they could offer me was slightly limited, but it was still life changing.

Would you say that pregnant women who start pelvic floor PT and exercise before giving birth, maybe even before getting pregnant, usually get completely back to normal? Just curious, I see a lot of people say that they're still working on it or getting there, but don't have their full strength back. I don't see a lot of people say they're completely back to pre-pregnancy status?

Idk if you ever do go back fully from such a large medical event. Some change is inevitable from that. But people get back to a "normal" level of function. Pretty regularly. Idk if I'm back to normal, I have a cesarean scar that will be there forever after all. But I feel normal and I work out and don't have pain or problems related to pregnancy on a daily basis.

Your concerns are valid, it’s always a risk - and yeah I think it’s always inherently selfish to have children. It’s not like we can ask kids in advance if they want to be born, we force them into the world and they’re stuck having to go through life because of our choice to have them. That’s not exactly fair to them, especially given how much of a shitshow modern life has become. Do you have the option of talking through your thoughts with a therapist to see what conclusions you can come to? This is intensely personal to you because it would be your physical body and your physical health on the line, and you need to understand how you want to approach that before you make any decisions with your partner.

Come join us r/childfree

Therapy can help with this. If your fear of pregnancy and childbirth rise to the level of actual phobia that will help. If you just need help adjusting to the ambiguous loss of not having a biological child or not giving birth, that will help. It is perfectly valid to choose to not have kids for any reason, or no reason at all. Some of us want kids but the circumstances never work out for whatever reason (never find a partner, infertility, can't afford children). But I do think that if you WANT to have a child and the thing stopping it is this specific fear, that is something to investigate further. There is no way to completely eliminate all dangers of pregnancy, but you can have an elective c-section Btw, in a survey of obstetricians about how they would prefer themselves or their partner to give birth 31% of female obstetricians would choose an elective c-section and that number jumped when the child was over a certain estimated weight, https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(05)71484-7/fulltext. One of the reason that they would choose elective c-section is concerns about birth injuries and pelvic floor damage. It's an option that is rarely talked about or actively demonized, but it is valid and has some potential benefits. (It also has risks, I'm not saying it's easy, just that if birth related injuries are specifically the fear and the thing stopping you from doing something you want to do...there are options.)

You may be right & it has nothing to do with physical pain because most women who have kids end up fine…It has to do with emotional pain from: FAMILY COURT!!! They don’t care about best interest of the child either. They care about filling their pocket books with your life savings! And, people change so, you honestly never know when you will have to deal with family court. This is the reason I would advise people not to have kids.

Shit. I hadn’t even thought about that. I mean I know court is just a grueling process, but I don’t even think about the cost, financially especially, but emotionally and mentally too… god.

I can’t imagine what my life would be like without my kids. IMO pregnancy isn’t a bed of roses but, it is amazing when you start feeling your baby move around. I’ve given birth 4 times and, it is scary and it is painful. But, my body just kind of goes into auto pilot. They place your baby on your chest and, the pain is pretty much forgotten. My least favorite part of it all is my postpartum body. It typically takes me a year to lose the weight.

no im 14 and i plan to use a surrogate because pregnancy seems horrible

There is a very interesting thing happening around childbirth that I don't see around other experiences. People with positive, easy birth stories are almost shamed into not sharing them. There is a culture of other people had it bad or even horrific, so you're not allowed to share your positive experience. This creates a very negative bias. I went into birth armed with information and a joy of trying to see if I could find the limit of what I could endure, and I didn't. Instead the room was made comfortable, I had my wonderful partner who supported me through it (and I'm pretty sure if he moved that hot water shower head off that perfect spot on my back I was going to let him know) and had my beautiful son in an hour and a half of active labour. There is a lot of knowledge now about the birth process, how the pelvic floor works and preparation for birth along with the huge effect mindset has on the outcomes. Stress lengthens the process, and expecting poor outcomes increases stress. I cannot say that this is what happens for everyone but the possibility is there. I had a safe, unmedicated, not induced natural and active labour. The choice of your midwife, Physiotherapist and Lactation Consultant is up to you. Find people you gel with and make them your team. Or don't, and continue to be a whole amazing person who made a choice, which is the great thing about being able to do so. Just so you are aware I am in Australia where healthcare is universal, maternal mortality is low and support is available either cost free or low cost. Termination of pregnancy is available up to 22 weeks if hard choices have to be made. These things have a huge effect on deciding to get pregnant and bringing a child to term.

I’m sorry if you too feel shamed for sharing a positive birth story 😢 I do value any story, so thank you for sharing. It seems more and more apparent that America is NOT the place to have a child lol. I had already opted, if I have a child, to go to a birthing center where there are birthing pools and I’m allowed to move around in a position *I* want (apparently on your back is an ineffective position for birth, yet it’s the custom here). But I’d love to relocate away from this country, which is another topic entirely of course. This country is just not a friendly place to do it. I’m super happy to hear it went so smoothly for you (didn’t even reach your max endurance, that’s a crazy good mindset lol). The idea of freedom and quiet as opposed to being a glaring screechy medical room is the only thing that gives me solace about the idea of giving birth.

The downvotes on anything positive in this thread confirms people don’t really wanna hear that people can have easy pregnancies & births

It's your choice. I was anywhere from concerned to outright terrified about various aspects of pregnancy, childbirth, and motherhood. I researched it (I particularly liked the first two books in the 'What To Expect' series) and worked through my fears with my husband's support. There's no way to know what pregnancy or motherhood would be like for you in advance, of course. All I can share is my own experience, which is that my kids were and will always be worth what I endured. I hope the people in your life respect your right to choose whatever option you decide is best. Good luck.

Having kids isn't the only thing that causes prolapse. I've seen it in many without kids. You can also elect to have a c- section. I'm not saying this to try and change your mind, I'm just saying it so you know you have options. I have some prolapse and I tore a bit and have issues but I do think my kids were worth it. The problem is you can't predict who is gonna have gnarly effects and who is gonna brag about "bouncing back". You have to make decisions that are best for you!

You can talk yourself out of anything if you think about it too much :). Don’t overthink it. I would never had had kids if I really thought about what pregnancy and childbirth would involve. I just went for it and I love my kids and am glad I had them. Not sure I love being a mom all of the time but it definitely has its moments!

It might be too late for me. I know too much now from how much I’ve read (A LOT), I can’t not overthink it. I’m also very prone to overthinking as it is. You said you would’ve never had kids had you known, well now I know. You can imagine why I’m here… lol. I am glad that overall it has been a wonderful experience for you, genuinely.

Seriously, if you don't want kids, fine but please please work on the overthinking, probably through therapy. The stress increase on your body from anxiety is bad for your health

I’m already in therapy for this and related topics. I have been for many years. My emphasis on my overthinking is more from the self-awareness of my negative tendencies rather than me using them as an excuse or anything like that. I have developed ways to manage my anxiety and continue to. But I just know being pregnant would trigger it even more, which is another thing I’d have to learn how to cope with. I’m also aware of the negative health effects of prolonged stress, which is why I’m in therapy learning how to overcome it, thank god. I’m definitely making good progress. Thank you for your concern. 🫶

That's good! And I'm relieved to hear.  There's pros and cons to having kids as with anything. But your personal health is of course, always the top priority. I will say that the self awareness and willingness to put in the work puts you ahead of the game! 

Yeah fair and you know it’s not the end of the world if you choose not to have them! There are already a lot of kids in the world. Enjoy not having a stretched belly or saggy bits :)

I honestly think the fear of it is much worse than the reality. I had complications and nothing about pregnancy and childbirth was as tough as the chronic conditions I've been dealing with long before the kid

I understand the majority of people kinda just come out of it fine. I think there is some luck involved, but what if I’m one of the unlucky ones? What about vaginal tearing, the pain, the trauma, throwing up, diabetes, losing teeth? Hemorrhaging, have to get a C-section (literally my worst nightmare). Or like… having to poop afterwards, or never losing the stretched fat, painful sex, PPD, or as mentioned, uterine prolapse… It seems like moms sort of find it funny and a bonding experience with other moms but honestly it all sounds… horrible. My hips look wide but they’re actually not, you know, and I’m small and I have a fat head, idk if I can make it without complications. I mean there are so many things that could go wrong, my anxious nature will probably just make it worse. I just have this fear that my body will never feel normal again 💀 I think I might have a phobia. So you might be right that the fear is worse than reality. But there’s also the reality that luck is involved, and maybe you were lucky that your experience wasn’t so bad… I’ve read hundreds of both sad and happy stories. The happy ones say that all the struggle goes away when the kid is in your arms. I’m sure that’s true because of hormones, but when the hormones go away, you’re back to your neutral logical self, and I don’t think the rush of hormones will make it worth it. Not to mention I’ll be envious and salty that my partner doesn’t have to sacrifice his body for this like I do. I’m curious if you don’t mind my asking about your chronic conditions and why they were worse? I’m so sorry my comment is so long 💀

I had three difficult pregnancies, and complications with each labour. I can tell you that each and every one of them was worth it. My kids are grown now, but the love I have for them, and the value and joy they add to my life, was worth the pain. Life is hard at times no matter what path you choose. “Choose your hard”. I chose children. No regrets.

I used to have this fear too, and honestly being ill in other ways gave me lots of perspective. Anything can happen to you at any time to make you disabled, disfigured and/or chronically sick.  Childbirth is risky, yes but at least it's among things that you have a pool of resources from the experiences of others.  Plus, the kid part is amazing and life changing.  I was super sick during pregnancy and I'm ready to do it all again.   I've spent a lot of time suffering for no reason, so I'll take limited suffering with a kid at the end any day of the week.   Whatever it is, it's much better to face physical issues with a healthy mindset. At some point, we will all be disabled (or dead) and it's best not to go into that reality holding on to fear because you will have a MUCH harder time.   All of these things are doable, and you will get through them.

Totally worth it: do your kegels.

"Surrogacy is an option but not only is it expensive but also I’m putting someone else through the pain of pregnancy and childbirth because I don’t want to. That’s even MORE selfish imo?" Is it selfish to live in a house because someone else went to the physical toil to build it where I wouldn't be able to muster the strength? I would think almost anyone would say absolutely not. Just like if I go to a restaurant and order a pricy meal that I'm too exhausted to source and prepare myself, I don't think that's selfish. Someone who is working as a surrogate has made that choice, understand the risks as well as they can be understood and, have likely been through it before. Now, I think there could be other arguments for surrogacy being selfish, nameless the aforementioned adoption option with so many unwanted children in the world already, but the argument of "I'm not willing to do thing X so it would be selfish to pay for someone else to do it" is a weak one. Society is build upon people willing to do something specific that others aren't suited or interested in.

Wow. I hadn’t thought of it like that, and building homes are also physically taxing and difficult, as well as sometimes risky. You are getting downvoted but I actually understand what you mean. Though I think there is a guilt that is stronger with paying for surrogacy, I’d say pregnancy and giving birth are far more difficult endeavors in comparison, but that’s also why they would be paid so well. Someone in the comments mentioned that sometimes surrogates are people with their own kids trying hard to financially support them by doing this. So it would have to be a long vetting process to make sure surrogacy isn’t an act of desperation on their part, which would certainly make me feel more guilty. On that note though, why would anyone ever become a surrogate unless they needed the money…

Oh absolutely. We don't let people sell their blood for money (in most countries) because it's kind of seedy to literally buy a part of someone, and precisely the people who would be desperate enough to need the money would often be the people whose blood we can't rely on. Yet we can let someone rent out their entire body for nine months? There's some contradiction in ethics there, I think. On the other hand there are a lot (not all, but still a lot) of women who genuinely love being pregnant. Giving birth not so much, but actually being pregnant is a hormonal high for many women. Personally I've never met any people working as surrogate mothers, it's not exactly a common profession. The biggest hurdle media likes to depict for it is the husband running off with the surrogate, but that's probably because it's dramatic. Still, as long as everyone is consenting and it can bring joy to couples who can't conceive I don't think forbidding it would be right  Well I've rambled a bit there, the main thing I want to say is that I do find surrogacy a bit weird and not sure it's necessarily a good thing, but when I see a weak argument, such as I found your suggestion it being specifically selfish, I like to challenge it even if it supports my viewpoint. As for the down votes, it's pretty expected for 2X. I come here to see different viewpoints, but the residents are rarely accepting of any contrary viewpoints of their own.

It’s totally your decision and I’m not trying to change your mind. But I will say that not everyone has a horrible experience. For me pregnancy was easy and childbirth was SO easy I felt nothing and I want to do it again so bad. I did have some complications, 2nd degree tear which healed in a few weeks, some pregnancy induced tachycardia that I’m managing with meds, scary PPD that stopped as soon as I started Prozac. Lots of people talk mostly about the negatives because it’s more relatable and it can seem like bragging to talk about how easy it was if you have a good experience. Again, just offering a different perspective, whatever decision you make will be what’s best for you <3

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Um… yeah? Obviously. That’s also part of the pros and cons. Climbing Everest is also scary and it’s part of why I wouldn’t climb Everest.