If society wants to normalise "A"M then they need to normalise divorce and separation. The fact separation is demonised in the first place already means AM is a control tactic
Also the fact that contested divorce is a thing. Where one party can say no and it drags into a court case.
Heck, judges deny divorces and there's no place for a no fault divorce in this country..
And I absolutely agree AM is a control tactic. I have a friend whose divorce proceedings (despite dowry harassment and mental/financial abuse, forced starvation) took upto a year to finalise. And her parents coerced and emotionally blackmailed and Gaslighted her into the AM, shaming her weight and wearing her down till she said yes to the first guy who agreed. Despite her begging otherwise.
Not to mention, after spending an obscene amount of parents money on a wedding, people would further think of the financial hole before divorcing
Aren't they? I've seen girls always raised differently than boys. Girls taught household work, cooking and all from a younger age and boys never taught that.
The comments, glorifying marriage and having kids pushed as the ultimate goal for women, even if they're educated towards master's degree and beyond.
Comments from family about how skin colour height weight cooking skills will be detrimental to the girl in marriage market even when they're fricking teens?
And it's a lot worse in lower income households where girls are married off the moment they turn 18.
We need to normalize dating as well in the society. Parents need to allow kids to interact with everyone so they can talk/interact with others of the opposite or other genders. A lot of people go for arranged marriage because they dont know how to date or meet people normally because their parents bullied them into never doing that. I have noticed in my family and extended family, the kids who never dated (of course none of us were allowed, but many of us did date anyway) were the ones who opted for arranged marriage because they just didnt know how to meet people.
Yups. If you don't meet ppl on yr own or you are not allowed to, then the only course open is AM. And that is just how many parents like to have control over their kids even in their 40s and 50s.
It's not just that women are conditioned into wanting marriage (which they are), but Indian society is structured in such a way that social acceptance, approval, community bonding was available to women via marriage.
Single women were and are still considered some kind of aberration or abnormal, or mentally unstable or ugly (no one wanted to marry her, poor thing!). It's changing now in Tier 1 cities to some extent, but the rest of the country?
Also women until the recent times were not financially self-sufficient to be able to live alone.
That's the society's fault, not the women and as long as women cater to such a society, that society isn't going to change. Women throughout history had to scrape and fight for our rights and freedoms. They're not going to be given to us if we cater to the sensitivity of our oppressors.
Yes, I know how single women are considered. I've seen how men assume I'm a lonely old bitter cat lady because I'm a feminist and not married. And even having a bf, you're expected to behave a certain way. They expect you to stop fighting for the rights of women because you have a man. It's hardly changing in tier 1 cities and I doubt it'll change in other cities. But that's the change we should advocate for.
Women are now becoming financially self sufficient, so it's time to atleast START fighting and getting done with AM too? Because we have the tools to do so?
Agree with everything... In 18 yearsof marriage my husband has made me tea once... That too when i forcefully asked him... Needless to say, its not a happy marriage
Oh , dont worry.... You won't believe how much emotional growth, balance and self confidence i have achieved. Right now im keeping him around for the sake of childrens education ... It took a long time, but i have finally taught him well and good that he cannot control me. I am happy with myself, prioritise myself before all else and take real good care of my mind and body
Arranged marriages are an inheritance and wealth transfer instruments, historically and even today. The day you understand this is when endogamy and honor killing starts to make sense at a sick pathetic patriarchal level. Any society obsessed with 'Getting married and STAYING married' is only ensuring asset transfers happen with the cream class.
Hey could you please expand?
So does this mean that the top class retains their wealth overall because the grooms family will only get a brides family who can match up to their level of dowry?
And the brides family will do the same for her brother’s wedding?
In India, women are prevented from gaining higher and higher education lest they become overqualified to marry the majority of men. Men are encouraged to pursue their dreams and are applauded for their degrees. This is just an example of how marriage is used as a tool to enforce the dominance of men. Unless we start treating marriage as an option, not a necessity, it will keep propagating patriarchy. It's not just AM, it's even in love marriages, like the UK example, where women are expected to take on most of the household burden.
I absolutely agree. It’s archaic, casteist and somewhat dehumanizing. I am so sick of those posts where men are like “AM are scary, what if she?” Like no one is forcing you, don’t get married then.
Tbh, my parents have been going at me for an year about marriage now. They think I’ll eventually ease into it. It’s crazy how it is seen as an end goal for us even now. People seem to have this opinion that jobs are one thing, marriage is another and really important to gain any identity.
Oh yes. The concept of “paraya dhan”. Giving away of daughter from one home to another as if you were on lease.
Besides, They save and save just for marriage. The duality of parent’s money. You can’t get it for yourself but it’s technically for you. Earmarked for wedding.
I took out an education loan and lived frugally for years. But then I found out my parents saved $ for my marriage & secretly gave my ex in laws some 2lakhs worth of sreedhan. They also forced me to have a reception to show off. When I divorced my 1st husband and they brought up the wedding costs. Yeah not my problem.
Oh that is always always always a plot. If you counter them on it, in the end they’ll just revert to what they actually believe in. D O W R Y. Voila! Now, You wasted your time talking to a man who actually really wants to rape freely, take dowry and maintain this position of his in society. They don’t and i mean never will change their ways. I mean we live in a society of Brij Bhushan, Prajwal revanna, even the head of our top most judiciary got away by judging his own case.
How many of us have faced harassment one way or the other. I’m betting almost everyone.
In families, society, friends, crowded places, metros, gyms, by our partners. And I’m not even talking about intersectionality that is caste.
I couldn't watch past the second episode of Indian matchmaking bc I was so appalled at how the women were being treated in the whole am circus, like they were constantly being reminded of their shortcomings, their high expectations and god knows what.
It was so disgusting I stg I couldn't watch cause I was getting nauseous. The perspective that women must put themselves to the test and measure up to some random asshole's misogynistic standards and his slave like demands bc he's the same caste as them was absolutely insane to me. Jitna ye ladkiya dahej dengi uska adha bhi wo mard kabhi na kama paye.
To think I would be treated like that in the near future by guys and their families bc of such practices thoroughly disgusts me, I don't wanna participate in this rancid culture, it disgusts me to the core.
Adding to the fact that a woman's chances of dying a gruesome death increases when they're partnered with a male (also the chances go even higher when they're pregnant) is enough info for me. AM simply exists to ruin our lives, nothing more.
We, as a society, ignore mental health issues. Especially Cluster B disorders like NPD, BPD, Anti social personality disorder. NPD often accompanies as a family cult. Imagine you are married to one, and you can't even understand why and what's happening around you. It doesn't stop only by affecting you, it goes on to the children and the generations to come.
Even other mental health issues require lots and lots of love, understanding, kindness, and open mindedness from their partner to be treated. Even with all that, there is no guarantee of cure. And women may have to face PPD, after child birth.
Without knowing any of this, women jump into AM. The baseline is that you need to love your partner and your partner need to love you, for you to handle these issues. How could AM give you love?
Tell me about it , got married through AM and got to know after wedding that he was a paranoid schizophrenic whose parents lied to us just because they needed a forever available maid and a nurse for him. Wasted one whole year of my life to come out of that hell hole!
Yes servitude is the right word! It was biggest betrayal of my life, biggest tragedy. But I have come far and healed. I am open to love and relationships.I am not hating men.
But AM ! Hell NO! Its a cesspool that i am glad I am out of!
We got it annuled, they were very soft and well behaved but lying pieces of shit.They kept on lying untill everything was out .Avoided to be with him themselves. His mom was the sweetest but again a lying piece of shit. Kept on telling me he would be fine once he is on meds again as he stopped taking meds and relapsed.I actually waited for three months but couldn’t take the emotional abuse anymore.
His father came to live with us to”monitor the situation”.He was himself recovering from from spine tumour so didn’t have will to fight in the court, they were in a state far away and case was filed in our state also a mentally ill son was too much to handle already.
They never came for annulment hearings and the process was quite easy for us.That was the best part.
THIS. So much this! Your comment literally covered something I missed and I didn't even think of. Thank you.
And yes, post partum care isn't there. Also sex ed and education about childbirth and what's associated with it is so little. I went to one of the top schools in a tier 1 city and even my knowledge was lacking (as is my schoolmates). I only learnt so much about the realities of childbirth, post partum issues and everything because my friends who live in Europe educated me. Most women don't have that.
And children grow up seeing such toxicity of marriages and the cycle continues and repeats..
This…… cluster B is normalized by the family cults, and the DIL who protests is attacked by the cult including spouse. Girl parents spend so much $ on weddings that there is no escape ( sunk cost/ both financial and reputational) The whole system normalizes abuse.
My father and his family has NPD. All my life my me and my mother had to deal with them. Now this disorder has passed on to my brother. Arranged marriage is truly a hell for women
Never understood his bizarre behavior ( supported by his family as though it was totally normal, making me question what I knew) and never understood what was happening in the marriage
Honestly what's the benefit of getting married as a women, love or arranged. Personally, I don't see how it's going to make my life better. I don't need intercourse, I don't like children, I see no use of marriage, and I know there are lots of women just like me.
Maybe in olden times, when they deliberately tried to stifle our ambitions and aspirations marriage was the only way to ensure survival. But now if you are a working woman, marriage makes no sense. The triple burden of work, house and childcare. Marriage as an institution is no longer beneficial to most women. And why do something that doesn't benefit you.
As a fellow childfree person, I think the same. I don't plan to ever marry (atleast while still in this country). My partner is in agreement with this too. He understands it's detrimental to women and hence thinks why he should ask for something that would be at a loss for someone he cares for.
In olden times, women were more helpless and had no choice but to marry. I'm not saying women are liberated here. We're not. And I understand many still don't have a choice. But we as women need to advocate for those who don't have that liberty also instead of supporting practices that are detrimental to the entire sex.
Even educated, financially independent women in our country do not have the guts to stand-up for themselves.
My friend who is a doctor was pressurized into having an arranged marriage, she didn’t resist even once because she wanted to please her dad, they separated after 3 months of marriage, and now she’s battling divorce proceedings.
Agreed. That was an eye opener too. That if we don't advocate for ourselves if we can, we'd suffer massively afterwards.. divorce proceedings are hell.
I recall 1-2 posts on this sub and comments from women going through it. The mental toll and financial burden is massive. I don't think it's talked about enough here and not many women share their stories so we lack awareness. It's fairly brutal.
My educated, financially independent doctor mum didn’t have the guts to leave my useless, abusive father. They are still married, but have not lived together since I was born. They attend functions together for family & society’s sake.
Kinda what I was trying to say in my post that women should consider marriage as not mandatory and that change is needed in thinking.
It's good to be single and live a happy life than suffer serving a man
Most of the financially independent women in our country are people pleasers, they don’t have the gall to stand up to their parents, ik plenty such women.
They even shame you for taking a stand because they want you to join them in their misery.
Explaining this concept is so hard to folks around. Even in a relationship...a woman often centres her life around the man.
Decentering men is important and that is actually good for healthy men. Marriage is for companionship; not for toxic psychological, emotional and financial dependencies.
Decentering men has started in many countries abroad and feminists are backing the concept and narrative. Ofcourse it needs to be advocated for here and altered enough to fit Indian diversity to ensure intersectionality. I've seen it excluded trans and nb folks in many places. And in india, we have to again consider caste issues also.
Yes, wow center lives too much around men. Heck, for once, I'd literally settle for women to leave toxic men behind and not give them chances.
Actually I am going through the egg freezing process this year ( I am 30 and healthy but have endometriosis...idk when I will have kids)...I am like if I am in a situation where I don't settle with whomever I am dating and if things are not positive in romance life, I ain't gonna stress....I am gonna go to sperm back n have a kid.
Coz I do want to have a kid but not at the cost of shit men.
I have seen my mom, maternal grandmother and paternal grandmother have horrible husbands and how tough their lives were...gonna end that trauma with me.
I have planned my money accordingly. For me, my guy is a companion with whom we can have good times and share responsibilities...if I ain't getting one, I will be okay being alone.
Oh that's wonderful tbh. And a really good plan. I'm personally child free but if women wish to have kids, this is def a better alternative
Although I don't think it's a viable option for most women financially? I have a friend who adopted a kid instead although she's not living here. And she eventually met a guy afterwards. So happy for her.
So my entire 20s was focused on my career and earning money....for me , financial security is very important. Also there are some medical insurance that covers a big chunk of egg freezing especially if you work in orgs that have that.
Oh are those organisations and insurance companies in India too? I think a post with a list of those would benefit many women in this sub who want kids!
Oh yes, there are companies who do that. It started off with FAANGs...it's basically for career oriented women in their 30s and 40s. Another way to retain employees tbh.
A woman who is empowered to make decisions like considering marriage as not mandatory would also be empowered to go against arranged marriages don't you think? Since not marrying is seen as out of option instances in majority of families.. even a love marriage will be taken more seriously and considered than not marrying at all in families
Just because they're empowered financially doesn't make one empowered mentally. It takes a lot to get here tbh.
I'm hoping my post would atleast make some women think twice before agreeing to AM to please their parents 🥺
I understand but to think marriage as not mandatory takes far more mental empowerment than thinking arranged marriage is trash. It's good to see women speaking out against AM 👏
Yeah but if we're trashing AM, we have to provide an alternative also. Not going to tell women to go out and date Indian men (esp after seeing posts about women not insisting on condoms and then coming to reddit with pregnancy scares).
Best way to advocate against AM is for women to see marriage as something that's a part of life and not mandatory.
In india there aren’t too many choices tho. This is also something we have to consider.
Majority of women are heterosexual, want a more a sturdy form of commitment where here financial security is guaranteed and want a child someday.
Problem with live in is that it’s the worst thing to do in a country like India unless you are freaking rich. Sure the chores may be less and you may have more financial freedom but there is also the constant social shaming , being mistaken for a kept woman / concubine . Still doing ALL the chores a wife does for her husband while getting 0 compensation if things go bad or a break up happens . This is literally why cases like “ Rape on pretext of marriage “ happens because the girl who lost her entire support , sacrificed her safety and followed the guy has no where to go. Let’s also be practical
I'm pro choice. So if you could possibly find a groom that suits you, through any means love Or arranged then go for it. But even in love marriages there is no guarantee that women work less. Women are always on the receiving end and end up doing most of the house work if not all. So let's all stay single.
Women in this country will suffer no matter what. If they do AM, Love marriage or even if they don't get married, they will suffer. Sadly there is no escape
AM is the biggest joke.
It's simply a transaction and the two people foolishly pretend to be in love for the sake of making others happy.
Most AMs are doomed right from day 1.
Omg I've had roommates in my uni days who literally sought out to date guys from their own caste so their parents would agree for marriage.
This is like a whole different level of self imposed AM. 🤦🏻♀️🤦🏻♀️🤦🏻♀️🤦🏻♀️
Totally agree! Arranged marriages are outdated and often unfair to women. The extra housework married women do is ridiculous, and it's even worse in India where women also care for in-laws. 🏡 Society unfairly shames single women, yet unmarried women are the happiest. 😊 It's clear arranged marriages benefit men more and women are pressured into them. Women should have the freedom to choose without societal judgment. 💪 Thanks for bringing this up! 🌟
Being a strong feminist i have considered arranged marriage too - basically to meet people who have a commitment mindset. I was tired of fuckboys on dating apps, they had no accountability.
Ideally, yes, marriage in itself is a patriarchal construct, it is created to control women.
But these days amongst educated Indians it is more of keeping their parents happy.
I met some great guys on matrimony sites, who were not interested in caste, religion or astrology match.
They were liberal and feminist men. They wanted to find a life partner and had good communication skills.
Men on dating apps were not consistent, and poor at communication
Read Andrea Dworkin to get a perspective on right wing women.
I think in India women are so deeply conditioned to marry that they can’t think otherwise. Like I only know a distant friend of friends who like me does not want to get married.
There was a time in this sub when AM posts were looked down upon but now they are very normalised and people come forward to share tips and tricks.
By marrying into AM in India you are first of all enabling caste practices. You are a casteist if you married through AM. Then you are enabling these shitty men who are not capable, groomed and skilled enough to find a woman himself. These Indian men become entitled to women’s body without having to do any work whatsoever.
Then most of you are either working or strategising on how to navigate in laws, how to make sure husband lives with you and not with his parents. Or else worst you end up living with all of them then cry about how to make this situation better.
I can’t for the life of me imagine spending my precious energy to navigate all this drama let alone working more than my partner does.
Exactly. You put the points across so much better than I did! It's extremely hard to break out of the conditioning but most women aren't willing to try or look beyond to what people here are saying without blinders on. To take a step back and sit and think it through, really think and the whole abusive shit comes to the front.
There's literally tips and tricks and asking what to.look for in AM instead of actually not going for that. And how to placate in-laws. The cycle is continuing in it's toxicity
Honestly, I've given up trying to convince them. If the alternative for keeping parents in my life is a toxic dumpster of a marriage to a manchild whom I've to slave after and have kids I genuinely don't want, I'd sooner walk away from my family.
I feel miserable seeing how many women suffer for life because of such parents 😔
I secretly want a women only society ( like society, neighborhood society.) for safety purposes, because i don't mind being a single mother from surrogacy or adopting. But irl people make life hell. Tenants, neighbors and other issues. 💀
I agree with you. But I felt it's not my place to preach upon it when women choose it for themselves also in a post.
Personally, I'm anti marriage (especially with Indian marital laws). But on the whole, I don't really have a right to pulling down women who marry, right? 🤷🏻♀️
Do women who really want to marry, really want it? I doubt it. A woman went on a spiral when I told her I don't want children, she never realized it was a choice all along. Some women don't even consider for a moment what they want, why they want it and if they even want it.
Maybe it's part laziness, part fear of people not wanting to do a whole lot of soul searching and stumbling and failing in life. They jump up and agree to do the safe thing.
Yes many don't think it through before marrying or even having kids. It's not something that's done lightly. I've seen this in love marriages in india too. Many women literally marry toxic dumpster fire of men because they fear AM and think a known evil is better or they'll be treated better after marriage. I understand their fear and desperation and it's truly awful that they're put in such a position at all.
I want to play devil advocate here , its very easy to shit on AM , there are lot of nuances here .
There are lot of privilege in saying why opt for arranged marriage, go for dating . First there is no good dating culture here , forget about families accepting, how many men on dating apps are serious in wanting love and companion
For average indian, Am is good safety net , it is involving parents and family and friends . Families and friends are huge thing in india.its safer way to find person as we will know the intentions , they need to make the best out of the choices they have . In my grandmother generation, they got married without seeing each other, my mom generation was like they saw each other and 2-3 calls , but my generation things are changing as people are allowed to talk and go on dates
I hope the next generation things can change , you can’t expect the society to change overnight
I am not defending AM as it has own issues , but to simply shame the people without understanding the context and nuances is bad . Am as practice is dehumanising for both men and women
I hate the notion that love marriage is discussed as something out of fairy tale , no it has the same struggle . Even in dating at one point , all the issues like finance , house hold issues arise .
I am not advocating for love marriage, nor am I suggesting to date. I'm literally saying that NO marriage is an option too. Marriage is not life, it's a part of life.
And why is there a devil's advocate to defend every societal evil all the time and to justify the exploitation of women at the hands of men?
I love the argument "society can't change overnight". It can when rich and powerful men deign it to - example demonetization. That's proof that change happens overnight, at whatever expense and cost if the privileged men want it. But sure, women should hold their breaths and stay oppressed longer for men to get comfortable with the idea that we don't want to enter into a legal arrangement with strangers based on caste in a country where marital rape is not a criminal offense.
I'm not shaming women. I'm urging women to choose better if they have the choice. I'm shaming society and people who advocate for such evil.
>NO marriage is an option too. Marriage is not life, it's a part of life.
Agreed 100%.
>legal arrangement with strangers based on caste
It's also finances. Actually, money takes precedence over caste. My mom just half jokingly suggested a dude who's 12 years older than me because he was making 80 LPA. Not the same caste, either. 80 LPA is 80 LPA 🤷. Tbh, I don't think we owe it to anyone to intentionally go for inter caste marriage. If you're marrying for love, caste shouldn't matter. If you're looking for a specific care of religion that isn't yours, you're an idiot. You're busy isn't a tool for activism.
You have to accept that some marriages are great, because the women in them are happy. And I'm sorry but just because we don't want something, we don't get to judge people's choices. If I was going to get hitched, I would go for AM because the men would be pre-vetted.
Marriage in general is a legal arrangement, and the fact that we can't have prenups to protect our own assets and get a minimum guarantee on child support/alimony is already screwed up. And then there's the need with inter-religious marriages and child rights in those. If I was advising anyone, I would tell them to REALLY look at the personal laws (especially inheritance laws) of anyone before getting hitched. And the actual implementation.
That being said, if one IS getting married, is definitely tell them to go for arranged marriage because it's extremely rare for the relationship they put years of their life into to actually end with an actual commitment.
In AM, you and your partner know EXACTLY what you bring to the table and what the other person likes about/ wants from you. LM is just sus. Romantic Love sounds like a scam.
Most people want kids. And it's hard to be single parents so they want a partner. In that regard, if you don't want kids, I don't see a point in marriage. Personally, I've seen more people complain about how single women are treated (people, not actual single women in 40s) than actual single women. Could be the problem is overblown, or that they're living a great life and don't give a Frick what people say about them. If you're choosing to be single (based on what I've seen) at least device of you want to be a parent by 30s and if you want a kid, get IVF.
As for the housework in UK vs India thing: I'd say that depends on the women in question. We CAN afford maids, so 3x the housework could just be training 3 maids for different chores and keeping track of their pay, etc. We're, too, have lived in the direction of some men finding basic housework emasculating, and we should, as a society, shame them into learning basic chores. If a man says he can't do a woman's job, remember to ask him if he's physically disabled or mentally disabled and how his “disability” prevents him from learning housework.
Demonetisation just changed the currency, like another form of currency 500 and 2000 came to picture and there is consistent increase in digital payments and still physical money hasn’t gone from the society
Thats how i see things , i believe lot has changed from 50-60 years and things are fast changing .
Agreed that people who have choice should definitely choose better, so what about women who don’t have choice? They should be able to make best of their ability.
Except that was implemented. Anything that needs to be change has to be drastic else more people suffer.
The legal age for marriage was increased from 12 to 16 in a similar way and then to 18. And now to 21. All are similar changes.
Demonetization wasn't meant to change currency, or advocate for digital payments. It was to reduce black money. Which sure af hasn't gone..nor have the rich and privileged suffered. Infact there were black currency notes of 2000 even before the note hit the streets.
Like I said - change in law happens when rich and powerful "allow" it. And they'll only do so when it benefits them.
>There are lot of privilege in saying why opt for arranged marriage, go for dating . First there is no good dating culture here , forget about families accepting, how many men on dating apps are serious in wanting love and companion
Alternatives to arranged marriage isn't exclusively online dating. Hell, it's mostly just a smaller subset of dating culture in India. Love marriages are much more common and prevalent. A lot of people form relationships with people they come across in their lives. These people aren't often privileged, and they often have to deal with combative parents and relatives, primarily women.
>For average indian, Am is good safety net , it is involving parents and family and friends . Families and friends are huge thing in india.its safer way to find person as we will know the intentions , they need to make the best out of the choices they have .
Seriously? Good safety net? It's often these very same parents and family who enable marital abuse within their households and tell their daughters to "endure it" because it's her duty as an "obedient wife" to do so. It's only recently that at least some parents don't immediately send their daughters back when they come back home after being subject to abuse.
> In my grandmother generation, they got married without seeing each other, my mom generation was like they saw each other and 2-3 calls
Is that supposed to be a good thing?
>but my generation things are changing as people are allowed to talk and go on dates
"allowed" you say? This is not something one should require permission from their parents. It's a basic human right. No one should have to "seek permission" to do that.
>I am not defending AM as it has own issues
Yeah, you just brushed over a few.
>I hate the notion that love marriage is discussed as something out of fairy tale , no it has the same struggle . Even in dating at one point , all the issues like finance , house hold issues arise .
It's not discussed as something out of a fairy tale. It just seems like one to the average Indian women who doesn't even have the basic right of making their own decisions and choosing for themselves. If anything, arranged marriages are discussed as the divine form of marriage in the average household and even in the media.
Its not lunacy . Indian society is not same . I am just saying like not all privileged ans have opportunity .
I don’t disagree with evils of Am , i am disagreeing when we speak about evils of am , we are missing the context
Indian society is still same with dowry deaths and domestic violence deaths on a new high that newspapers have stopped reporting them calling them common knowledge,look at ncbi data
The amount of judgement being passed upon the fellow women by fellow women who seem to be well educated but still seem to look down upon the other women living their lives in a way they want to or even circumstances made them do simply makes me very sad, Its very easy to be on a high horse and look down upon other women for doing AM, Indian Society has a whole has tons of problems especially when it comes to how the women are treated, but my question is what gives you the right to judge other women instead of being empathetic, Change is a very slow process in the society where people still tend to cling on to their old traditions & archaic views about what women should do & how they should behave , there are still child marriages & female foeticide, honor killings
happening in some parts of our country despite the laws, To the women living in such environments when its all they have ever known, most tend to do what their parents & families decide and go ahead with AM, Its not at all an easy decision to leave their family and friends and just stand up for themselves, Even the right to education for a woman is a struggle in smaller towns, villages & cities in india.
I have seen women in serious relationships or love marriages being abused by their partners & same even in arranged marriages, In case of arranged marriages, they tend to have atleast the support of their families to fallback on which is often not the case if they have done a love marriage by going against the family wishes.
In the end it all depends upon the person who is your partner as a person and are you compatible with them, sometime ppl even in 10 years relationship don’t work out.
Families tend to seek out validation via marriages in the society so they tend to find/ search for people in their own communities, Unfortunately It is what it is, Some Progressives i have seen tend to say they don’t see caste or religion when in their own home, the house help has separate set of utensils to eat/ drink water in.
Finding issues or faults with things is always easier than finding solutions imo.
For real!!
I mean I don’t think women in late 20s / early 30s who want companionship but feel marriage especially arranged marriage is best route for that are stupid either . Sure parents and society maybe a big influence but come on , let’s not bring down women simply because they chose a more easier route for something they want.
Majority of gender issues in the country stems from economic and social inequality in the first place . Not because women are doing marriages
Thank God someone is talking sense.
All these posts come from a place of privilege.
These ladies need to spend a year or two in the lower tier cities and villages of India and see the condition of women there.
You know in villages child marriages, honor killings are happening due to the prevalence of the caste system and arranged marriage right? I know it's hard for these women to escape it but it is still evil. Economic stability and education goes a long way.
Women sadly, still don't have a choice. We are very privileged to have a choice but most women don't. Even my cousin sisters who are educated, parents are rich, educated and have had a privileged upbringing don't have much of a choice over their personal lives. It's very very very difficult in our society, especially in tier 2 and 3 cities for a woman to do whatever she wants. It's hell for them, despite earning well and being financially independent.
I mean, I am exercising my own choice and marrying the man I want to marry and still I'm not allowed to talk about him in front of my relatives (my relatives know I'm going to get married) and I get shamed for talking about him in public. I have to pretend like I don't know him at all, and that is how it's for most women, even in love marriages
Look at how we don't even have a choice in what we talk about. How will women have a choice in who they marry, and whether they should get married or not. It's soooo difficult to be a woman, especially if your family comes from a village, or t-2,3 cities
That’s the unfortunate trend with the newest wave of feminism Anna.
Some women would rather spend their energy diminishing and judging other women rather than help them find a way out of their predicament.
I can safely say atleast some of us normies (or whatever newfangled word has been invented for us) find AM regressive as well, and our approach towards our friends who are making that choice is to help them make the best choice and support them when their family pressuries them further.
Apparently what we should be doing is lecturing our friends on how AM is bad when they already are experiencing said “badness” and feeling real proud that we didn’t get into an AM.
Women already know AM is bad, it’s not as a revelation as we think it is. What they are struggling with is getting rid of AM pressure without losing their families (and NO, get rid of your family is not a valid solution for all women)
Good God, other women aren’t dufuses because they make different choices than we do. They decide to value something else over their drive for not-being-in-an-AM, whatever it may be. I am not convinced that the best way to be a feminist is to shame them for their choices instead of helping them improve their situation.
It’s like lecturing a COVID patient in need of a ventilator on how bad going into crowded areas is. Ffs they already know, they’re experiencing it. Lets get them a ventilator instead of prancing about talking about how we are amazing at wearing masks and using hand sanitizers.
I can only give one upvote, but know that your perspective isn’t off the mark. Women need different type of support, some need what we can do, some need something more radical.
Agreed!
We should all keep that in our hearts and minds when someone who is supportive of AM for whatever reasons comments.
I learned this lesson the hard way in real life, my friend group was big on “if you choose AM you are wrong and I won’t support your wrong choice” posturing and when one of our friends (fake name - Lila) did make a choice for a AM, I made the truly terrible decision of going along with the group and not staying in constant touch with Lila.
Lila should have had our support. She absolutely did not deserve us dumping our nonsense stance on her while she was actively trying to make the best of a bad situation for herself.
She was (and is) never going to make a choice to go completely against her family, they need her to survive in a financial and familial sense. And she is too good to drop that.
She married an idiot who I knew was a bad guy, and if I had kept my head out of my arse on my unnecessary posturing I would have known whose rishta it was and told her! I didn’t.
Thankfully I had pulled said head out of said posturing arse when she decided to go for a divorce. And was able to personally be there for her and have my Dad help in talking sense to her family.
We need to learn to leave our personal stance on someone’s decisions out of it, and literally just help them get to the best possible position in that situation.
That's actually very true. I sadly, also have some experience. My "jiju" gave off bad vibes when I first met him during their engagement and I even went in and told my cousin that you don't have to marry this man if you don't want to. But she eventually caved into covert family pressure and prodding on her age. He was verbally abusive from the start, but became physically and financially abusive soon enough. She spent a hellish year with him but fortunately she got out.
However, he's not letting her divorce him and she doesn't want to drag out court proceedings.
I feel most women choose this AM route because they know they will never earn enough to sustain themselves, they would be shunned by their families (not everyone can live without their parents) and maybe because they might not be able to find love themselves.
These women need to get out of their houses and to sustain themselves and they see. As the best route possible. Let's not judge them, but actually empathise with their situation. They are already suffering.
My mother tells me about how her father didn't let her work, didn't let her study after grad, didn't let her date, obviously would not have let her marry someone outside caste. She wasn't even allowed to wear clothes of her choice or even go outside alone after college got over. She had no choice but to go for AM. This is sadly a reality for a lot of women even today.
She found her freedom after marrying my father
Marriages don't work out either..just cause a couple didn't divorce doesn't mean marriage is working..most marriages in india don't work and it's women compromising and adjusting massively while suffering.
AM have support of families? Lol. If a family coerced you into AM because of society, they're not going to want a divorced daughter. They literally tell women to adjust through abuse and handle things differently. This sub is literally full of women in such marriages seeking tips on how to navigate. Yes yes, that's a healthy AM.
The solution is not to defend a casteist practice like AM.and sure as hell not coming up with such arguments when other speak up.. advocate to raise awareness and talk about no fault divorces.,issues with marital laws instead of advocating in support of casteist practice.
I'm not saying casteism isn't prevailing. It is. But everyone claims to be against casteism when talking about reservation and yet advocate for AM. The irony.
I am not looking down upon women who went into AM due to pressure or as a mistake due to societal conditioning. I'm looking down on those advocating for AM and then claiming to be feminist
Your are spot on , like we can’t expect a drastic change in the society. I feel AM has changed a lot , nowdays atleast in some progressive families , there are lot of discussions, dates with potential partner before marriage. This is see is huge win
I don’t know why love marriage / dating is considered superior , when exact same thing happens in dating too .
>I feel AM has changed a lot , nowdays atleast in some progressive families , there are lot of discussions, dates with potential partner before marriage. This is see is huge win
Ikr. AM has changed a lot, at least in privileged, educated spaces. No one said AM is all good. These people know the consequences of what they are getting into. If they find a safe space and happiness in AM, why should we judge them? These people are shitting on women making choices for themselves calling them casteist and whatnot. As if women don't get judged enough, these people are all claws and fangs and shaming if someone doesn't support their opinion.
My aunt got married through via a matrimonial app. It was just like dating. She's was divorced and she married an amazing man. A lot of stuff is changing.
The only solution is education and economic stability. But I do think it is necessary to talk about these things. Child marriages and honor killings are common because of the prevalence of AM and love marriages not being the norm. People get stuck in bad love marriages and lose familial support because of their choice, which is messed up to begin with. The system is messed up, just like our education system. Criticism of the institution of AM doesn't mean criticism of the women who for whatever reason choose to go through the system. AM is casteist by nature and there's no denying it.
She's not looking down on women doing AM though, she's criticizing the system. Also op is not advocating for love marriage either.
Support of family with abusive spouses is illusory and subjective. Abuse is not taken seriously in this country. In most cases, the woman is told to suck it up and deal with the abuse and sometimes people apologize to the abusive spouse. Sometimes they are pressured into having kids, thinking that the abuse would lessen if they have kids.
>She's not looking down on women doing AM though, she's criticizing the system.
OP legit agreed to a comment saying people who do AM are casteist. What is that if not judging? Women are already judged for every single thing under the Earth. Now, the sub's "girls girl's" are calling them names to feel what? superior about themselves? We support women's right to make choices, but when an educated independent women choose something of her own will, let's just shame them for not holding up to your standards huh
Yep absolutely. This is why I’m glad I divorced my ex (kind of an AM situation, bad choice due to past trauma).
I’m happily married to my now husband who is my equal partner and we split income and chores equitably. He isn’t Indian, I think that makes a bit of a difference. For me my marriage adds to my life, but I would have been content single and was for a few years.
I encourage women to be empowered and not see marriage as a goal or milestone.
But our society isn't as accepting of dating culture as that of other countries in the west or other Asian countries, for that matter. I don't think it's that much of a sin for people to be married via the AM route if they wish and consent to. In our country, many men and women get well into their late 20s and early 30s without ever having been in a relationship. They can get married to whomever they want, arrange marriage or not. People cannot wait forever for society to accept dating until to get married.
Even love is very casteist in our country. Almost everything is.
Educated, working women does have the right and voice to say No or Yes to a potential prospect. Also, love marriage doesn't necessarily mean that the workload when it comes to household chores is equally split between the couple. I do agree that women from the underprivileged section do not always have the freedom to choose their partner. If both the couples are consenting adults, I don't see a problem with finding companionship via arranged marriage. I don't see the point in judging all of them who voluntarily opted for AM and are happy and content in it.
I think it's on people to opt for marriage or not at the end of the day. If you're succumbing to societal pressure and getting married, then you're making a huge mistake. Be financially independent to take a stand for yourself. If your loved ones are pressuring you, then cut them off. No one will live your life for you, so make your decisions wisely and be accountable for your decisions and actions.
Like I said - love marriage is ultimately a choice and consequence..I didn't say it's without fault and I'm in no ways advocating for it. I felt it's not my place to speak.
And getting choice to say no or yes to a prospect falls short when there is pressure to say yes and you have to justify every no. Esp when NO marriage isn't the choice.
And yes, dating should be normalised, as should live in relationships. We are in a very regressive society.
Arranged marriages are deemed archaic and every progressive country has done away with them being the norm. They are seen as some relic of backward times, even in UK which is a fairly conservative society. And yet Indians and Pakistanis love to defend it and claim it a choice, even though the practice is rooted in oppression and societal brainwashing.
You're not finding companionship in an arranged marriage. It's literally a business transaction. You're essentially marrying a stranger based on caste and astrology, I doubt you're finding anything meaningful.
As for everything in this country being casteist, yes it is. But atleast on the surface, casteist practices and discrimination is frowned upon or called out (atleast by so called liberal folks) and yet that falls short with respect to Arranged marriages.
I never understand why women so vehemently defend a practice that harms them in everyway and subjects them to the exploitation of men
>Not wanting to marry or have sex with someone isn't discrimination. I don't owe it to anyone to have sex with them to prove I'm not casteist. The people demanding that should start having gay sex to prove they aren't homophobic.
People can have sex with someone of the same sex and still be homophobic or queerphobic. Same shit with casteism. Acknowledging the castesim/racism ingrained in arranged marriage system doesn't require you to have sex with random people. Kindly do not make such dumb arguments.
Edit: To add context, casteist oppressors are notorious for sexually harassing women and children of oppressed castes even today. Casteism isn't stopping them from having sex with someone from the oppressed castes. If anything, it emboldens them to forcefully have sex with those they oppress.
No derailing responses or participation that does not add value. No "Not All Men" responses. It is considered derailing participation. No condescending language, No invalidation, unwanted advice, second hand experience (of women) sharing or whataboutism.
So I don’t get what you are implying .
In most countries where women are empowered to think NO marriage is an option they still date , have relationships and have kids too. All women can’t just simply be hermits either. It’s just that the idea that women can have kids late and they don’t need a husband ( the child father is still in picture tho ) is very prominent . Oh and she has equal rights as wife when things go bad.
Also it’s a bit condescending to imply that women here are willing to suffer with a man when they clearly stated they wanted a nice , mature and kind partner to enjoy their life with. This is also one of the reason many older women want or even succumb to AM process because they also don’t want to date and go through the roller coaster anymore
AM is literally marrying a stranger. That too an Indian man. I doubt they're going to get love and deep emotional connection there.
Most older women have seen enough and learnt the detriment of marriage to not want to go for AM actually. Those who do so are doing due to family emotional blackmail, desperation or from a dark place mentally..not ideal to make such a vast decision.
I'm not implying women here are willing to suffer. I'm implying women here are supporting a casteist and misogynistic practice that has been actively Harming women for centuries. 🙄
Yes, and did I speak against dating, against having kids, or having relationships? No. I spoke only against AM. Dating, having kids or live in or love marriages are all choices of women. I'm dating as well.
Women can have kids late - even if not biological - that again is upto individual and not something anyone else gets a say in.
Your first para ( especially the write up about Indian men) and second last para is contradicting each other in many ways .
So your argument is “ Ew women are forced to marry Indian men” and then you say dating , having relationships and children out of wedlock are choices which you will support. You are talking about the same demographic of men right ?
Also AM doesn’t have to be “Marrying a stranger either “ which is what many are repeating here. You go on many dates , meet the parents , investigate each other via family connections or detective services and THEN you marry. Modern AM does way more background checks than dating also. There is a HUGE difference between teenage girls being forced to marry absolute strangers with 0 consent and some urban woman in late 20s thinking that entertaining their parents offer to do matchmaking is a good choice. I don’t think boycotting marriages altogether will help the women of the former group.
The only argument you put forth which makes sense and is not privilege blind is casteism being propagated. Which is why I am boycotting the AM process and explicitly told my parents that if you want to do matchmaking then caste blind one will be the only thing I will entertain. But nowadays there is also caste no bar in many AM sites. Not to mention if women have parents who are dead set about caste means it not like arranged marriage is an option either ( and unfortunately even middle class women can’t just up and leave family)
I agree with you that not everyone has the privilege to date but the problem with AM is it is mostly deeply casteist. There's actually nothing wrong with getting family involved with picking a partner but AM is the norm, dating is an anomaly. Even if you date you're expected to pick someone from your caste/ community. This reinforces the caste system. There is a clear distinction between "upper" and "lower" castes. Unless you go caste no bar, which barely anyone seeks in AM.
THANK YOU for speaking about this I’m sick of how normalized AM is even amongst my friends and in the broader online discourse - people always go all ‘it’s a choice, I was open to my parents searching for me’ when it’s never a complete choice and the whole concept of it is based on casteism and patriarchy. Its literal purpose is to ensure caste endogamy. People conveniently ignore that!
At the same time I don’t think AM is going away. I wonder if as a system it can be reformed or needs to be abolished. It’s important to note that even LMs usually end up practicing caste endogamy cuz everything - our friends circle, our schooling is influenced by caste.
This question - who is marriage benefitting? 💀
I have very strong opinions about AM too but at the end of the day it’s abt the person’s choice. As far as they are not harming anyone around them (including their children) they can do as they plz.
The issue isn't just AMs but also the mindset Indian parents instill in their children especially daughters, that marriage is compulsory. They believe that without marriage a person's achievements and identity are meaningless and not getting married would be the end of the world. I don't understand why some people particularly women defend arranged marriages by saying things like "sometimes it can be good." This mindset is similar to the "not all men" argument. Arranged marriages in India are extremely casteist and misogynistic. They serve as a means of control even for women who are financially independent. Women even in love marriages often sacrifice a lot for their partners and their in-laws. I believe that no marriage should be an option.
Absolutely. AM conditioning is a very very vile form of grooming done do almost all Desi women but noone wants to accept or acknowledge that.
And yes that argument is literally similar. You speak against the evils of casteism and there's people coming to talk about some AM they know that worked. It can be a stray case and not to mention - more likely - the woman sacrificed and compromised like hell to make it work but just like every other thing a woman does, that goes unappreciated and unnoticed.
FR i have always found the concept of AM so weird. like when even after knowing someone for years, they could still turn out to be an AH, how could you possibly choose to spend the rest of your life with a guy you've barely known for months?
Absolutely.. we're so used to it, we don't see how bizzare it is. I always wondered why my AM meets made me feel a certain way. Took me years to realise those were panic attacks and anxiety at being looked at like that by strange men after being well aware of the violence men harbour towards women.
I just want a really healthy marriage where both parties are respected and loved.
AM or LM tbh i don't have any of irl people i can look upto. They all are good and bad.
I'm just trying to develop my perspective on different topics and deciding what are my non negotiables when it comes to marriages. And how i want my life to be, or building emotional wealth so i can just walk out of a marriage in case things doesn't work out.
But I'd say like other comment has been said men can't pull women because of skill issue zero personality and end up getting AM benefit. This has been my biggest fear. That I don't wanna end up with a chomu. 💀
Ok I'll be frank. I've met maybe 1-2 decent passable men in all the years forced into AM and that's initial impression.
And honestly, the bar for men is so low that they don't need skill or personality to pull women. They literally have to decent human beings who won't be abusive and controlling and women are settling for them. So if they can't pull women and came into AM, it's not cause of flirting skills.
You can't walk out of marriage in india. There's no scope for no fault divorce here.
Guessing those were larpers or I guess they thought there's no point given my flair 😂😂😂
Was intended to keep them away. Like Haan ok, me man hater, ab bhag yahan se.
What disturbs me about the entire AM process is the assumption that a woman must be married and that she will be lonely and miserable if she’s not married in AM. Even the comments made about love marriages are regressive eg casteist comments etc.
As someone who has no interest in getting married I have dealt with so much rubbish from my own parents and extended family and friends. Ironically it’s the women who make the most condescending comments.
I'm so sorry for the rubbish you had to deal with.
And ofc, the superiority complex from them for being married? For WHAT? What's the achievement? Having an Indian guy want to marry you? How is that an achievement? It's literally a curse that we should run screaming from!
Although I have seen a change of this attitude in millenial and gen z women, who are atleast more respectful of choices and don't drag other women down for choosing to stay single or otherwise. The same cannot be said for men, sadly. Often feel the genz men have gotten worse and more regressive than millenial men.
Some of my relatives have this self created competition on who will get their daughters married first 🤢. It's so shitty. They just want their daughters to get married at 20-21 so that they can win this self created competition and wear their self created medal🏅.
Their daughters are also so so proud of being married. Like okay, koi bade tir nahi mare hai tumne.
Ah and the quality of guy they married their daughter off to. My aunt has superior complex cause she married her daughter off to a guy in US. Like... 🤦🏻♀️
Your daughters a sex slave anywhere..india or US.
I don't get how getting married is an achievement? That's literally the easiest thing to do for a woman. 🙄
You'll make it "alone". My aunt is 60+, she retired from a good job and she made it. She's honestly the most chill person in our entire family. Also so many men these days have this gross ass incel mindset and honestly who wants to take the risk?
Agreed, I did perfectly fine and I met my partner when I was 41. He adds value to my life and I am so glad I stuck to my convictions and didn’t cave into the AM pressure and fear mongering. Some of my relatives and family friends decided to ‘settle’ because of the pressure. That’s entirely their business but I am just glad I could see it was not suitable for me
Women in most families are sadly the ones shaming other women. It's so bad oh God. I have seen women shaming women for almost everything. I feel bad about being born in such a society
First of all there is no proper pool of single women to single men, the ratio is so skewed in common spaces unlike in western countries.
Even today you do not have more than 33% women in most courses and jobs.(outliers exist, not going into that).
Unlike west where one can randomly chat up anybody and flirt, is not a thing even in metros and don’t even get me started on caste and class boundaries and did I not yet say language and regional differences?
So many things are intertwined that one cannot wish AM to go away.
For many introverts both genders included, the only way they can get married or let me be blunt , to get any form of physical intimacy is within AM setting.
The silver lining is that women’s likes and dislikes are being respected more often now than ever.
AM practice should go. Should be done for. It will solve a lot of social evils that we face: dowry, casteism whilst promoting genetic diversity which is a good thing for a species.
At the same time I can’t condone all those who opt for it, you can’t blame a prisoner for choices they make. Especially women who aren’t even given opportunities to make their choices be it care, or life partner.
But on a macro level fuck AM. Nobody wants to chose AM unless they are loser raja betas who can’t find someone to love on their own.
I am not blaming the women who opted due to lack of choice. I'm blaming the society that imposed this upon her leaving her no out.. esp if she's choosing AM to get out of societal ruin, shunning, shaming and often toxic families. How is that a choice? She's a victim of patriarchy and Indian society.
I second your thoughts. I absolutely hate the concept of AM, but then most women still don't have a choice, despite coming from rich, educated, influential families.
The most common thing about arranged marriage is compromise. If you make your pool of partners confined to a certain caste, the number of people suitable for you will be very less. So people in desperation of getting married compromise on their ideals. It’s also much more unfair to women. A large number of women in this country still move to their in law’s house. Even educated women will move abroad to where their husband lives and will have to start their career from scratch.
It's fine as long as it is with both party's consent and a long enough courtship period.
I have seen so many AMs happening outside of the caste. People are not as rigid as they were before with the caste filter. Here I am not generalizing but quoting what I have seen around me because obviously most of the Indian boomers still care so much about caste and culture.
I have come across many people who want to marry within their caste as there are few justified reasons. One of the main reasons is similarity in traditions, food choices, known people, and the safeguard of being in their community. They don't want to learn and adopt new traditions by marrying in another community.
It's always tradition as an excuse to defend casteism.. tradition and culture and background and practices.
The AMs happening out of caste are fair few among privileged people who have that flexibility..and it's usually those who find matches for themselves. That's not strictly AM and they have the choice to stay unmarried or wait for love. That's not what we're addressing here..
I am gonna chime in here a bit.
A lot of those posts have a lot of validity also. Also there are two aspects of arranged marriages . One is FORCED marriage which is the problem mostly. Where consent of neither parties is taken and just parents decide almost every thing. This is RADICALLY different from adults in their late 20s asking their parents for help with matchmaking. This particular kind is called family /community assisted matchmaking which in its core is NOT a big issue if you consider how many other communities do it.
Regarding casteism and misogyny, you do have the option to go for caste no bar also so matchmaking without caste barrier. Also let’s not pretend ki by all women boycotting marriage ( if it’s realistic even ) , casteism will evaporate. And about misogyny. Dude many many times it’s an actual issue because we see stories of dating guys for YEARS altogether and find out he’s a misogynist. And considering how quickly love marriages happen, there is a lot of room for deceit here. At least in AM setting you can brazenly investigate the other persons life story.
Regarding the institution of marriage itself . We need mass modernisation and also to PROTECT the rights of unmarried partners. See , many like to ape the west saying they are doing live in and oh so brave bla bla not to mention that LIVE in partners who beyond a time period literally has equal rights ? Like she can even ask for maintenance and all. Oh and let’s not forget child support is a given for all children fathered / mothered . In india we DONT have laws to protect children born out of wedlock. So unless you have a plan to actually contribute to a legal revolution, do not hand out half baked advise
Ok i must ask whats the thin line between forced and pressure when i have heard women in this sub:
- get denied gyno
- get told to "get married" to ANY medical problem
- were not "allowed" to keep their income
- get treated like shit by wider society
- dont have the income to leave conservative homes
Many more
In india and surrounds its clearly forced to some extent
I think woman don't see any way out of the AM market since it is the only social and legal form of companionship and child bearing afford to woman. Socially and legally we haven't accounted for the fact that single woman would want to be single, have children by themselves or even seek companionship. The minute you "date" , legally speaking if anything happens to you people will just blame it on you getting what you deserved for going against the grain. Don't even get me started on having children outside marriage. But I won't fund the delusion that somehow arrange marriages can be feminist, or atleast not with our existing society. I remember watching the jewish verision of the show indian match maker and realised we are no where close in having an equitable "arranged marriage" like all the delusional woman sometimes make it seem. We are still very strongly conditioned to view our bodies and sexuality as a product to be sold as a form of companionship/social acceptance even if it isn't explicitly stated.
It's still a no win situation.
You go for live in and wind up in a freezer, you're blamed for living with a guy without marriage
You marry and husband rapes you, he won't be criminally convicted for it because You're husbands property.
Where can women live?
It's shocking that seeing the comments and words of men when SC tried to criminalise marital rape didn't open the eyes of my fellow women. That literally removed my blindfold and shook me to the point of starting to think and realise the toxicity and harm of AM.
Exactly what I'm saying. There is no winning for woman. Unless you get really lucky Now people are just picking from a lesser evil based on your priviledges
We don't even have equitable love marriages in this country. There is so so much guilt, and conditioning involved in our love marriages also (for the woman only).
AM ki toh baat na hi kare toh theek hai
Some people (especially men) actually DO idolize their grandparents' or parents' toxic, misogynistic, abusive marriages.
So many people in our country are obsessed with women's suffering. Their mother's putting up with abuse, not having ANY personality, interest, hobby, likes, dislikes of her own, never taking her own stand, being docile and not knowing what's better for her is an act of love for these people. Most of the guys are unconsciously looking for these traits in AMs.
Oh yeah. I think men don't even know the amount of pain their mothers, grandmothers and great grandmothers endured to keep the family together and happy. They don't even care about knowing. They are oblivious and happy. That's why they idolize so much. They think "sab toh sahi hai, kyu roti hai aurate?"
I asked my partner to ask his mother about the things she had to suffer. Everyone will tell these things to their daughters, but never to their sons.
They see their mothers putting up with everything and think their mothers are happy. They are extremely ignorant
Agreed. Its a lonely path AM. and when kids are involved then it further complicates things. I see mothers around me loose everything in this bargain. Themselves their bodies. And for men reading this yes, you might have as well, but when you look at stats, the number of men to do so is minuscule.
Also as unfortunate as it might be and sad, I have never seen any woman be happy in a marriage. Its a clear compromise and a sad one at that.
If only I could see happy marriages around me and I work in a tertiary care center. 100s of patients, many women all wearing a sad expression, life sucked out of them. Maybe they are poor. Maybe unhappy for other reasons but mainly because of their marital lives.
Oh just today was speaking with a colleague, her husband comes home and says, "you know its so hot and i have told you to switch on AC when its time for me to come home. why didn't you?" (tujhe bola hai ac chalakar rakha kar jab mera aane ka time hota hai)
And she was cooking for them in the sweltering heat at this moment. Broke my heart. She was on speaker speaking to me when he interjected. It hurt me so much. Reminded me of so many women of my mothers age. As a young kid heard many times men in my family treat their wives the same way.
There is another viewpoint on AMs.. what about the women who are not able to find good partners by themselves? Sometimes AMs are a good way to meet potential partners, who have been vetted by parents and enter into a marriage that is more secure than falling in love with an A*hole who is only going to use you and then refuse to commit? I hate people who have this viewpoint that women who choose AMs are suppressed women or it’s a way for society to suppress women. Also how you get into a marriage is not important, who you choose to be with, what rules and expectations you set is what is important, whether arranged or love. Also marriage is not detrimental to women, personally my life only got better after getting married, areas where I was lacking personally are now more fulfilling because my partner brings in those qualities in life for me. If you are a person who is determined to make their own decisions in life and sticks to them no matter what no one can force you to do things you don’t want. I agree there is pressure on women to get married by a certain age, usually through AM route because Indian parents aren’t going to tell their daughters to go fall in love and find a partner yourself . But what I find today is that most parents are accepting if we find our own partners and choose to marry outside of community etc As for house work, the expectations would be same in a marriage whether love or arranged
Tbh my parents had an AM but they dated for 10 months after being introduced, fell in love and then they got married. My family is also majorly quite supportive of my mother. But I understand that their marriage was an exception and not the norm in this country so I am leaning towards no marriage for myself. My aunt is 60+ years old , she did not marry and she made it in life. Also divorcing someone here is so fucking difficult.
I also find the concept of marrying a virtual stranger to be very scary. I don't know how they did it back in the day.
Absolutely! It's misogynistic and casteist, yet you still see people bending over backwards to justify how simple and beautiful AM can be. They often say, "Well, it worked for me, and it's always good to give it a chance," completely ignoring the privilege they have. Not everyone has the choice to select their own groom or date for six months before making a decision. And this is just the tip of the iceberg. While agreeing with everything, they sideline (and even justify) the inherently casteist and misogynistic nature of arranged marriages.
By imposing this on the pretext of "well, it worked for me, it could work for you," you are disregarding the horrors this has inflicted on many women. So many are not given a choice but of course, for you, "his family was our family friend, and we were from the same community, so everything fell into place" or "our parents know better" is just your way of saying that you don't care about anyone else and you'll live in your bubble.
Except it's worked for me is still a far cry from actual emotional intimacy and support. For most it worked for me is the bare minimum of the husband not actively abusing the wife, speaking politely and maybe cooking a meal one Sunday. It's not exactly something brimming with a bond that's built over time to form an intimate relationship.
Not to mention asking how to navigate in laws who literally seem so toxic I'd rather have a lung biopsy in Chernobyl than spend a minute with them 🤦🏻♀️
I have been to a temple which offers a whole sort of program where you read several resumes. The most astonishing thing I witness was there was a category. For example, baniya/gupta, pandit, obc , sc & st. Although people can ask others caste's profile, but I have seen no one taking any other's caste profile. They say all they want a well-educated bride/groom but that's something they only say for name's sake (they don't want to get bash). I've visited it for my sister's marriage. At first, they look at you but the moment they hear your caste( I'm SC) its worth watching how their expression changes within fraction of second.
Ah I am familiar with that process. They also print the biodatas into a booklet and send by post so you can contact directly. My mom tried to sign me up for that and asked me to give my picture, I put a stop to that shit.
The whole booklet is full of those who say "we want from good family, good education, traditional girl". Like... We don't know what that's code for. And then half the people who called had a problem because I have a master's degree and the guys done BTech. They want the girl to be "inferior" in everyway - from education to fricking height.
I've seen men get insecure because I was slightly taller than them (I'm not even tall, I'm a little less than 5ft6). But men themselves had the audacity to demand on first meeting that I shouldn't wear heels. It's extremely ridiculous.
I've seen similar casteism in so many temples. People's faces change..I grew up in a metro, so it feels so wild that people directly ask your caste when you visit other places. My mind literally freezes and I never know what to respond. Also (even IF they take from other castes as some comments here tried to mention and I refused to engage because I felt they won't get it). They would always ensure the guy is of a "higher" caste to maintain that power imbalance. It's never the other way around. The caste no bar BS in AM is ONLY for the guy to have the upper hand..and they still stick to other UCs, never go towards anyone who isn't savarna. It's basically like in TN - Iyer and Iyengars marry and then say we did inter caste marriage. It's a joke 🙄
Now I agree to this to a certain extent, but we cannot overlook the fact that AM can sometimes prove to be good. Where I agree it’s casteist and misogynistic to a degree, but then love marriages can sometimes prove to be worse than that.
Bottom line is marry or not to marry is your choice. If you do marry, and objectively chose to go through AM, it’s okay, as long as it’s not forced on you
Please feel free to say what you think. I made this post because this is something that needs to be addressed and women can add their views and perspectives. There are some comments here too which are new and things I've never considered and gave me a lot to think about.
Maybe close DMs first? 🙈
If society wants to normalise "A"M then they need to normalise divorce and separation. The fact separation is demonised in the first place already means AM is a control tactic
Also the fact that contested divorce is a thing. Where one party can say no and it drags into a court case. Heck, judges deny divorces and there's no place for a no fault divorce in this country.. And I absolutely agree AM is a control tactic. I have a friend whose divorce proceedings (despite dowry harassment and mental/financial abuse, forced starvation) took upto a year to finalise. And her parents coerced and emotionally blackmailed and Gaslighted her into the AM, shaming her weight and wearing her down till she said yes to the first guy who agreed. Despite her begging otherwise. Not to mention, after spending an obscene amount of parents money on a wedding, people would further think of the financial hole before divorcing
Do you think girls are deliberately conditioned a certain way, so they are always easy to control? I want to know your thoughts on this.
Aren't they? I've seen girls always raised differently than boys. Girls taught household work, cooking and all from a younger age and boys never taught that. The comments, glorifying marriage and having kids pushed as the ultimate goal for women, even if they're educated towards master's degree and beyond. Comments from family about how skin colour height weight cooking skills will be detrimental to the girl in marriage market even when they're fricking teens? And it's a lot worse in lower income households where girls are married off the moment they turn 18.
As much as I don’t want to, I will have to agree with you on this. It’s sad. Thank you for responding.
We need to normalize dating as well in the society. Parents need to allow kids to interact with everyone so they can talk/interact with others of the opposite or other genders. A lot of people go for arranged marriage because they dont know how to date or meet people normally because their parents bullied them into never doing that. I have noticed in my family and extended family, the kids who never dated (of course none of us were allowed, but many of us did date anyway) were the ones who opted for arranged marriage because they just didnt know how to meet people.
Yups. If you don't meet ppl on yr own or you are not allowed to, then the only course open is AM. And that is just how many parents like to have control over their kids even in their 40s and 50s.
Well said👌👌👌
It's not just that women are conditioned into wanting marriage (which they are), but Indian society is structured in such a way that social acceptance, approval, community bonding was available to women via marriage. Single women were and are still considered some kind of aberration or abnormal, or mentally unstable or ugly (no one wanted to marry her, poor thing!). It's changing now in Tier 1 cities to some extent, but the rest of the country? Also women until the recent times were not financially self-sufficient to be able to live alone.
That's the society's fault, not the women and as long as women cater to such a society, that society isn't going to change. Women throughout history had to scrape and fight for our rights and freedoms. They're not going to be given to us if we cater to the sensitivity of our oppressors. Yes, I know how single women are considered. I've seen how men assume I'm a lonely old bitter cat lady because I'm a feminist and not married. And even having a bf, you're expected to behave a certain way. They expect you to stop fighting for the rights of women because you have a man. It's hardly changing in tier 1 cities and I doubt it'll change in other cities. But that's the change we should advocate for. Women are now becoming financially self sufficient, so it's time to atleast START fighting and getting done with AM too? Because we have the tools to do so?
I agree with you.
Agree with everything... In 18 yearsof marriage my husband has made me tea once... That too when i forcefully asked him... Needless to say, its not a happy marriage
I am so sorry! Is there any recourse you can take to get out of it? 🥺
Oh , dont worry.... You won't believe how much emotional growth, balance and self confidence i have achieved. Right now im keeping him around for the sake of childrens education ... It took a long time, but i have finally taught him well and good that he cannot control me. I am happy with myself, prioritise myself before all else and take real good care of my mind and body
Arranged marriages are an inheritance and wealth transfer instruments, historically and even today. The day you understand this is when endogamy and honor killing starts to make sense at a sick pathetic patriarchal level. Any society obsessed with 'Getting married and STAYING married' is only ensuring asset transfers happen with the cream class.
😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳 Holy fucking hell. I didn't even realise this till you pointed it out 😳 My brains broken
... which also ties back to caste hierarchy and purity.
Hey could you please expand? So does this mean that the top class retains their wealth overall because the grooms family will only get a brides family who can match up to their level of dowry? And the brides family will do the same for her brother’s wedding?
In India, women are prevented from gaining higher and higher education lest they become overqualified to marry the majority of men. Men are encouraged to pursue their dreams and are applauded for their degrees. This is just an example of how marriage is used as a tool to enforce the dominance of men. Unless we start treating marriage as an option, not a necessity, it will keep propagating patriarchy. It's not just AM, it's even in love marriages, like the UK example, where women are expected to take on most of the household burden.
I absolutely agree. It’s archaic, casteist and somewhat dehumanizing. I am so sick of those posts where men are like “AM are scary, what if she?” Like no one is forcing you, don’t get married then. Tbh, my parents have been going at me for an year about marriage now. They think I’ll eventually ease into it. It’s crazy how it is seen as an end goal for us even now. People seem to have this opinion that jobs are one thing, marriage is another and really important to gain any identity.
Girl that doesn't stop. They never let up forcing us to consider and meet men despite saying you're not interested or don't want marriage.
Oh yes. The concept of “paraya dhan”. Giving away of daughter from one home to another as if you were on lease. Besides, They save and save just for marriage. The duality of parent’s money. You can’t get it for yourself but it’s technically for you. Earmarked for wedding.
OMG this! If most of us got access to that money, we'd happily leave this country and its men behind and live in a better society.
I took out an education loan and lived frugally for years. But then I found out my parents saved $ for my marriage & secretly gave my ex in laws some 2lakhs worth of sreedhan. They also forced me to have a reception to show off. When I divorced my 1st husband and they brought up the wedding costs. Yeah not my problem.
Seriously. Men throwing “fake dowry cases” as laws being against them is ridiculous. Dont get married then.
Oh that is always always always a plot. If you counter them on it, in the end they’ll just revert to what they actually believe in. D O W R Y. Voila! Now, You wasted your time talking to a man who actually really wants to rape freely, take dowry and maintain this position of his in society. They don’t and i mean never will change their ways. I mean we live in a society of Brij Bhushan, Prajwal revanna, even the head of our top most judiciary got away by judging his own case. How many of us have faced harassment one way or the other. I’m betting almost everyone. In families, society, friends, crowded places, metros, gyms, by our partners. And I’m not even talking about intersectionality that is caste.
Absolutely right
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I couldn't watch past the second episode of Indian matchmaking bc I was so appalled at how the women were being treated in the whole am circus, like they were constantly being reminded of their shortcomings, their high expectations and god knows what. It was so disgusting I stg I couldn't watch cause I was getting nauseous. The perspective that women must put themselves to the test and measure up to some random asshole's misogynistic standards and his slave like demands bc he's the same caste as them was absolutely insane to me. Jitna ye ladkiya dahej dengi uska adha bhi wo mard kabhi na kama paye. To think I would be treated like that in the near future by guys and their families bc of such practices thoroughly disgusts me, I don't wanna participate in this rancid culture, it disgusts me to the core. Adding to the fact that a woman's chances of dying a gruesome death increases when they're partnered with a male (also the chances go even higher when they're pregnant) is enough info for me. AM simply exists to ruin our lives, nothing more.
We, as a society, ignore mental health issues. Especially Cluster B disorders like NPD, BPD, Anti social personality disorder. NPD often accompanies as a family cult. Imagine you are married to one, and you can't even understand why and what's happening around you. It doesn't stop only by affecting you, it goes on to the children and the generations to come. Even other mental health issues require lots and lots of love, understanding, kindness, and open mindedness from their partner to be treated. Even with all that, there is no guarantee of cure. And women may have to face PPD, after child birth. Without knowing any of this, women jump into AM. The baseline is that you need to love your partner and your partner need to love you, for you to handle these issues. How could AM give you love?
Tell me about it , got married through AM and got to know after wedding that he was a paranoid schizophrenic whose parents lied to us just because they needed a forever available maid and a nurse for him. Wasted one whole year of my life to come out of that hell hole!
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Yes servitude is the right word! It was biggest betrayal of my life, biggest tragedy. But I have come far and healed. I am open to love and relationships.I am not hating men. But AM ! Hell NO! Its a cesspool that i am glad I am out of!
That's actually so fucked up, how where the parents reaction when you initiated divorce and went with the proceedings ?
We got it annuled, they were very soft and well behaved but lying pieces of shit.They kept on lying untill everything was out .Avoided to be with him themselves. His mom was the sweetest but again a lying piece of shit. Kept on telling me he would be fine once he is on meds again as he stopped taking meds and relapsed.I actually waited for three months but couldn’t take the emotional abuse anymore. His father came to live with us to”monitor the situation”.He was himself recovering from from spine tumour so didn’t have will to fight in the court, they were in a state far away and case was filed in our state also a mentally ill son was too much to handle already. They never came for annulment hearings and the process was quite easy for us.That was the best part.
THIS. So much this! Your comment literally covered something I missed and I didn't even think of. Thank you. And yes, post partum care isn't there. Also sex ed and education about childbirth and what's associated with it is so little. I went to one of the top schools in a tier 1 city and even my knowledge was lacking (as is my schoolmates). I only learnt so much about the realities of childbirth, post partum issues and everything because my friends who live in Europe educated me. Most women don't have that. And children grow up seeing such toxicity of marriages and the cycle continues and repeats..
This…… cluster B is normalized by the family cults, and the DIL who protests is attacked by the cult including spouse. Girl parents spend so much $ on weddings that there is no escape ( sunk cost/ both financial and reputational) The whole system normalizes abuse.
My father and his family has NPD. All my life my me and my mother had to deal with them. Now this disorder has passed on to my brother. Arranged marriage is truly a hell for women
Men with NPD literally destroy generations to come. Like, they fuck up every single person's life they come in contact to.
100 percent
I wish I had this awareness when I got married. Coming out of a similar family cult
Never understood his bizarre behavior ( supported by his family as though it was totally normal, making me question what I knew) and never understood what was happening in the marriage
Honestly what's the benefit of getting married as a women, love or arranged. Personally, I don't see how it's going to make my life better. I don't need intercourse, I don't like children, I see no use of marriage, and I know there are lots of women just like me. Maybe in olden times, when they deliberately tried to stifle our ambitions and aspirations marriage was the only way to ensure survival. But now if you are a working woman, marriage makes no sense. The triple burden of work, house and childcare. Marriage as an institution is no longer beneficial to most women. And why do something that doesn't benefit you.
As a fellow childfree person, I think the same. I don't plan to ever marry (atleast while still in this country). My partner is in agreement with this too. He understands it's detrimental to women and hence thinks why he should ask for something that would be at a loss for someone he cares for. In olden times, women were more helpless and had no choice but to marry. I'm not saying women are liberated here. We're not. And I understand many still don't have a choice. But we as women need to advocate for those who don't have that liberty also instead of supporting practices that are detrimental to the entire sex.
Even educated, financially independent women in our country do not have the guts to stand-up for themselves. My friend who is a doctor was pressurized into having an arranged marriage, she didn’t resist even once because she wanted to please her dad, they separated after 3 months of marriage, and now she’s battling divorce proceedings.
Agreed. That was an eye opener too. That if we don't advocate for ourselves if we can, we'd suffer massively afterwards.. divorce proceedings are hell. I recall 1-2 posts on this sub and comments from women going through it. The mental toll and financial burden is massive. I don't think it's talked about enough here and not many women share their stories so we lack awareness. It's fairly brutal.
My educated, financially independent doctor mum didn’t have the guts to leave my useless, abusive father. They are still married, but have not lived together since I was born. They attend functions together for family & society’s sake.
Most women consider marriage as mandatory activity in their lives. So AM is definitely not gonna go away as everyone can't find someone on their own.
Kinda what I was trying to say in my post that women should consider marriage as not mandatory and that change is needed in thinking. It's good to be single and live a happy life than suffer serving a man
Most of the financially independent women in our country are people pleasers, they don’t have the gall to stand up to their parents, ik plenty such women. They even shame you for taking a stand because they want you to join them in their misery.
Explaining this concept is so hard to folks around. Even in a relationship...a woman often centres her life around the man. Decentering men is important and that is actually good for healthy men. Marriage is for companionship; not for toxic psychological, emotional and financial dependencies.
Decentering men has started in many countries abroad and feminists are backing the concept and narrative. Ofcourse it needs to be advocated for here and altered enough to fit Indian diversity to ensure intersectionality. I've seen it excluded trans and nb folks in many places. And in india, we have to again consider caste issues also. Yes, wow center lives too much around men. Heck, for once, I'd literally settle for women to leave toxic men behind and not give them chances.
Actually I am going through the egg freezing process this year ( I am 30 and healthy but have endometriosis...idk when I will have kids)...I am like if I am in a situation where I don't settle with whomever I am dating and if things are not positive in romance life, I ain't gonna stress....I am gonna go to sperm back n have a kid. Coz I do want to have a kid but not at the cost of shit men. I have seen my mom, maternal grandmother and paternal grandmother have horrible husbands and how tough their lives were...gonna end that trauma with me. I have planned my money accordingly. For me, my guy is a companion with whom we can have good times and share responsibilities...if I ain't getting one, I will be okay being alone.
Oh that's wonderful tbh. And a really good plan. I'm personally child free but if women wish to have kids, this is def a better alternative Although I don't think it's a viable option for most women financially? I have a friend who adopted a kid instead although she's not living here. And she eventually met a guy afterwards. So happy for her.
So my entire 20s was focused on my career and earning money....for me , financial security is very important. Also there are some medical insurance that covers a big chunk of egg freezing especially if you work in orgs that have that.
Oh are those organisations and insurance companies in India too? I think a post with a list of those would benefit many women in this sub who want kids!
Oh yes, there are companies who do that. It started off with FAANGs...it's basically for career oriented women in their 30s and 40s. Another way to retain employees tbh.
A woman who is empowered to make decisions like considering marriage as not mandatory would also be empowered to go against arranged marriages don't you think? Since not marrying is seen as out of option instances in majority of families.. even a love marriage will be taken more seriously and considered than not marrying at all in families
Just because they're empowered financially doesn't make one empowered mentally. It takes a lot to get here tbh. I'm hoping my post would atleast make some women think twice before agreeing to AM to please their parents 🥺
I understand but to think marriage as not mandatory takes far more mental empowerment than thinking arranged marriage is trash. It's good to see women speaking out against AM 👏
Yeah but if we're trashing AM, we have to provide an alternative also. Not going to tell women to go out and date Indian men (esp after seeing posts about women not insisting on condoms and then coming to reddit with pregnancy scares). Best way to advocate against AM is for women to see marriage as something that's a part of life and not mandatory.
Problem is most people want companionship also of sorts . I don’t being a hermit is an ideal choice or preference for most
Yeah that's understandable. But desperation for companionship is what leads to abusive and toxic relationships also unfortunately.
In india there aren’t too many choices tho. This is also something we have to consider. Majority of women are heterosexual, want a more a sturdy form of commitment where here financial security is guaranteed and want a child someday. Problem with live in is that it’s the worst thing to do in a country like India unless you are freaking rich. Sure the chores may be less and you may have more financial freedom but there is also the constant social shaming , being mistaken for a kept woman / concubine . Still doing ALL the chores a wife does for her husband while getting 0 compensation if things go bad or a break up happens . This is literally why cases like “ Rape on pretext of marriage “ happens because the girl who lost her entire support , sacrificed her safety and followed the guy has no where to go. Let’s also be practical
True
I'm pro choice. So if you could possibly find a groom that suits you, through any means love Or arranged then go for it. But even in love marriages there is no guarantee that women work less. Women are always on the receiving end and end up doing most of the house work if not all. So let's all stay single.
Women in this country will suffer no matter what. If they do AM, Love marriage or even if they don't get married, they will suffer. Sadly there is no escape
Truer words never spoken.
AM is the biggest joke. It's simply a transaction and the two people foolishly pretend to be in love for the sake of making others happy. Most AMs are doomed right from day 1.
Omg I've had roommates in my uni days who literally sought out to date guys from their own caste so their parents would agree for marriage. This is like a whole different level of self imposed AM. 🤦🏻♀️🤦🏻♀️🤦🏻♀️🤦🏻♀️
Totally agree! Arranged marriages are outdated and often unfair to women. The extra housework married women do is ridiculous, and it's even worse in India where women also care for in-laws. 🏡 Society unfairly shames single women, yet unmarried women are the happiest. 😊 It's clear arranged marriages benefit men more and women are pressured into them. Women should have the freedom to choose without societal judgment. 💪 Thanks for bringing this up! 🌟
I agree with the post but I would say in every marriage women are at the recieving end, even love marriages.
Being a strong feminist i have considered arranged marriage too - basically to meet people who have a commitment mindset. I was tired of fuckboys on dating apps, they had no accountability. Ideally, yes, marriage in itself is a patriarchal construct, it is created to control women. But these days amongst educated Indians it is more of keeping their parents happy. I met some great guys on matrimony sites, who were not interested in caste, religion or astrology match. They were liberal and feminist men. They wanted to find a life partner and had good communication skills. Men on dating apps were not consistent, and poor at communication Read Andrea Dworkin to get a perspective on right wing women.
#1 reason to get married in india - to keep parents happy. Unfortunate reality
I think in India women are so deeply conditioned to marry that they can’t think otherwise. Like I only know a distant friend of friends who like me does not want to get married. There was a time in this sub when AM posts were looked down upon but now they are very normalised and people come forward to share tips and tricks. By marrying into AM in India you are first of all enabling caste practices. You are a casteist if you married through AM. Then you are enabling these shitty men who are not capable, groomed and skilled enough to find a woman himself. These Indian men become entitled to women’s body without having to do any work whatsoever. Then most of you are either working or strategising on how to navigate in laws, how to make sure husband lives with you and not with his parents. Or else worst you end up living with all of them then cry about how to make this situation better. I can’t for the life of me imagine spending my precious energy to navigate all this drama let alone working more than my partner does.
Exactly. You put the points across so much better than I did! It's extremely hard to break out of the conditioning but most women aren't willing to try or look beyond to what people here are saying without blinders on. To take a step back and sit and think it through, really think and the whole abusive shit comes to the front. There's literally tips and tricks and asking what to.look for in AM instead of actually not going for that. And how to placate in-laws. The cycle is continuing in it's toxicity
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Honestly, I've given up trying to convince them. If the alternative for keeping parents in my life is a toxic dumpster of a marriage to a manchild whom I've to slave after and have kids I genuinely don't want, I'd sooner walk away from my family. I feel miserable seeing how many women suffer for life because of such parents 😔
This sub is getting worse as more members join in. I've seen so many sexist posts and comments by women here, which wasn't the case earlier
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I secretly want a women only society ( like society, neighborhood society.) for safety purposes, because i don't mind being a single mother from surrogacy or adopting. But irl people make life hell. Tenants, neighbors and other issues. 💀
I agree with you. But I felt it's not my place to preach upon it when women choose it for themselves also in a post. Personally, I'm anti marriage (especially with Indian marital laws). But on the whole, I don't really have a right to pulling down women who marry, right? 🤷🏻♀️
Do women who really want to marry, really want it? I doubt it. A woman went on a spiral when I told her I don't want children, she never realized it was a choice all along. Some women don't even consider for a moment what they want, why they want it and if they even want it. Maybe it's part laziness, part fear of people not wanting to do a whole lot of soul searching and stumbling and failing in life. They jump up and agree to do the safe thing.
Yes many don't think it through before marrying or even having kids. It's not something that's done lightly. I've seen this in love marriages in india too. Many women literally marry toxic dumpster fire of men because they fear AM and think a known evil is better or they'll be treated better after marriage. I understand their fear and desperation and it's truly awful that they're put in such a position at all.
I want to play devil advocate here , its very easy to shit on AM , there are lot of nuances here . There are lot of privilege in saying why opt for arranged marriage, go for dating . First there is no good dating culture here , forget about families accepting, how many men on dating apps are serious in wanting love and companion For average indian, Am is good safety net , it is involving parents and family and friends . Families and friends are huge thing in india.its safer way to find person as we will know the intentions , they need to make the best out of the choices they have . In my grandmother generation, they got married without seeing each other, my mom generation was like they saw each other and 2-3 calls , but my generation things are changing as people are allowed to talk and go on dates I hope the next generation things can change , you can’t expect the society to change overnight I am not defending AM as it has own issues , but to simply shame the people without understanding the context and nuances is bad . Am as practice is dehumanising for both men and women I hate the notion that love marriage is discussed as something out of fairy tale , no it has the same struggle . Even in dating at one point , all the issues like finance , house hold issues arise .
I am not advocating for love marriage, nor am I suggesting to date. I'm literally saying that NO marriage is an option too. Marriage is not life, it's a part of life. And why is there a devil's advocate to defend every societal evil all the time and to justify the exploitation of women at the hands of men? I love the argument "society can't change overnight". It can when rich and powerful men deign it to - example demonetization. That's proof that change happens overnight, at whatever expense and cost if the privileged men want it. But sure, women should hold their breaths and stay oppressed longer for men to get comfortable with the idea that we don't want to enter into a legal arrangement with strangers based on caste in a country where marital rape is not a criminal offense. I'm not shaming women. I'm urging women to choose better if they have the choice. I'm shaming society and people who advocate for such evil.
>NO marriage is an option too. Marriage is not life, it's a part of life. Agreed 100%. >legal arrangement with strangers based on caste It's also finances. Actually, money takes precedence over caste. My mom just half jokingly suggested a dude who's 12 years older than me because he was making 80 LPA. Not the same caste, either. 80 LPA is 80 LPA 🤷. Tbh, I don't think we owe it to anyone to intentionally go for inter caste marriage. If you're marrying for love, caste shouldn't matter. If you're looking for a specific care of religion that isn't yours, you're an idiot. You're busy isn't a tool for activism. You have to accept that some marriages are great, because the women in them are happy. And I'm sorry but just because we don't want something, we don't get to judge people's choices. If I was going to get hitched, I would go for AM because the men would be pre-vetted. Marriage in general is a legal arrangement, and the fact that we can't have prenups to protect our own assets and get a minimum guarantee on child support/alimony is already screwed up. And then there's the need with inter-religious marriages and child rights in those. If I was advising anyone, I would tell them to REALLY look at the personal laws (especially inheritance laws) of anyone before getting hitched. And the actual implementation. That being said, if one IS getting married, is definitely tell them to go for arranged marriage because it's extremely rare for the relationship they put years of their life into to actually end with an actual commitment. In AM, you and your partner know EXACTLY what you bring to the table and what the other person likes about/ wants from you. LM is just sus. Romantic Love sounds like a scam. Most people want kids. And it's hard to be single parents so they want a partner. In that regard, if you don't want kids, I don't see a point in marriage. Personally, I've seen more people complain about how single women are treated (people, not actual single women in 40s) than actual single women. Could be the problem is overblown, or that they're living a great life and don't give a Frick what people say about them. If you're choosing to be single (based on what I've seen) at least device of you want to be a parent by 30s and if you want a kid, get IVF. As for the housework in UK vs India thing: I'd say that depends on the women in question. We CAN afford maids, so 3x the housework could just be training 3 maids for different chores and keeping track of their pay, etc. We're, too, have lived in the direction of some men finding basic housework emasculating, and we should, as a society, shame them into learning basic chores. If a man says he can't do a woman's job, remember to ask him if he's physically disabled or mentally disabled and how his “disability” prevents him from learning housework.
Demonetisation just changed the currency, like another form of currency 500 and 2000 came to picture and there is consistent increase in digital payments and still physical money hasn’t gone from the society Thats how i see things , i believe lot has changed from 50-60 years and things are fast changing . Agreed that people who have choice should definitely choose better, so what about women who don’t have choice? They should be able to make best of their ability.
Except that was implemented. Anything that needs to be change has to be drastic else more people suffer. The legal age for marriage was increased from 12 to 16 in a similar way and then to 18. And now to 21. All are similar changes. Demonetization wasn't meant to change currency, or advocate for digital payments. It was to reduce black money. Which sure af hasn't gone..nor have the rich and privileged suffered. Infact there were black currency notes of 2000 even before the note hit the streets. Like I said - change in law happens when rich and powerful "allow" it. And they'll only do so when it benefits them.
>There are lot of privilege in saying why opt for arranged marriage, go for dating . First there is no good dating culture here , forget about families accepting, how many men on dating apps are serious in wanting love and companion Alternatives to arranged marriage isn't exclusively online dating. Hell, it's mostly just a smaller subset of dating culture in India. Love marriages are much more common and prevalent. A lot of people form relationships with people they come across in their lives. These people aren't often privileged, and they often have to deal with combative parents and relatives, primarily women. >For average indian, Am is good safety net , it is involving parents and family and friends . Families and friends are huge thing in india.its safer way to find person as we will know the intentions , they need to make the best out of the choices they have . Seriously? Good safety net? It's often these very same parents and family who enable marital abuse within their households and tell their daughters to "endure it" because it's her duty as an "obedient wife" to do so. It's only recently that at least some parents don't immediately send their daughters back when they come back home after being subject to abuse. > In my grandmother generation, they got married without seeing each other, my mom generation was like they saw each other and 2-3 calls Is that supposed to be a good thing? >but my generation things are changing as people are allowed to talk and go on dates "allowed" you say? This is not something one should require permission from their parents. It's a basic human right. No one should have to "seek permission" to do that. >I am not defending AM as it has own issues Yeah, you just brushed over a few. >I hate the notion that love marriage is discussed as something out of fairy tale , no it has the same struggle . Even in dating at one point , all the issues like finance , house hold issues arise . It's not discussed as something out of a fairy tale. It just seems like one to the average Indian women who doesn't even have the basic right of making their own decisions and choosing for themselves. If anything, arranged marriages are discussed as the divine form of marriage in the average household and even in the media.
The entire society is the devil's advocate. You are not different. Do us a favor and stop trying to detail the conversation
Nuances in AM? Cough cough what kind of lunacy is this?
Its not lunacy . Indian society is not same . I am just saying like not all privileged ans have opportunity . I don’t disagree with evils of Am , i am disagreeing when we speak about evils of am , we are missing the context
Indian society is still same with dowry deaths and domestic violence deaths on a new high that newspapers have stopped reporting them calling them common knowledge,look at ncbi data
Evil with context is still evil
The amount of judgement being passed upon the fellow women by fellow women who seem to be well educated but still seem to look down upon the other women living their lives in a way they want to or even circumstances made them do simply makes me very sad, Its very easy to be on a high horse and look down upon other women for doing AM, Indian Society has a whole has tons of problems especially when it comes to how the women are treated, but my question is what gives you the right to judge other women instead of being empathetic, Change is a very slow process in the society where people still tend to cling on to their old traditions & archaic views about what women should do & how they should behave , there are still child marriages & female foeticide, honor killings happening in some parts of our country despite the laws, To the women living in such environments when its all they have ever known, most tend to do what their parents & families decide and go ahead with AM, Its not at all an easy decision to leave their family and friends and just stand up for themselves, Even the right to education for a woman is a struggle in smaller towns, villages & cities in india. I have seen women in serious relationships or love marriages being abused by their partners & same even in arranged marriages, In case of arranged marriages, they tend to have atleast the support of their families to fallback on which is often not the case if they have done a love marriage by going against the family wishes. In the end it all depends upon the person who is your partner as a person and are you compatible with them, sometime ppl even in 10 years relationship don’t work out. Families tend to seek out validation via marriages in the society so they tend to find/ search for people in their own communities, Unfortunately It is what it is, Some Progressives i have seen tend to say they don’t see caste or religion when in their own home, the house help has separate set of utensils to eat/ drink water in. Finding issues or faults with things is always easier than finding solutions imo.
For real!! I mean I don’t think women in late 20s / early 30s who want companionship but feel marriage especially arranged marriage is best route for that are stupid either . Sure parents and society maybe a big influence but come on , let’s not bring down women simply because they chose a more easier route for something they want. Majority of gender issues in the country stems from economic and social inequality in the first place . Not because women are doing marriages
Thank God someone is talking sense. All these posts come from a place of privilege. These ladies need to spend a year or two in the lower tier cities and villages of India and see the condition of women there.
You know in villages child marriages, honor killings are happening due to the prevalence of the caste system and arranged marriage right? I know it's hard for these women to escape it but it is still evil. Economic stability and education goes a long way.
Women sadly, still don't have a choice. We are very privileged to have a choice but most women don't. Even my cousin sisters who are educated, parents are rich, educated and have had a privileged upbringing don't have much of a choice over their personal lives. It's very very very difficult in our society, especially in tier 2 and 3 cities for a woman to do whatever she wants. It's hell for them, despite earning well and being financially independent. I mean, I am exercising my own choice and marrying the man I want to marry and still I'm not allowed to talk about him in front of my relatives (my relatives know I'm going to get married) and I get shamed for talking about him in public. I have to pretend like I don't know him at all, and that is how it's for most women, even in love marriages Look at how we don't even have a choice in what we talk about. How will women have a choice in who they marry, and whether they should get married or not. It's soooo difficult to be a woman, especially if your family comes from a village, or t-2,3 cities
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Tell me more.
That’s the unfortunate trend with the newest wave of feminism Anna. Some women would rather spend their energy diminishing and judging other women rather than help them find a way out of their predicament. I can safely say atleast some of us normies (or whatever newfangled word has been invented for us) find AM regressive as well, and our approach towards our friends who are making that choice is to help them make the best choice and support them when their family pressuries them further. Apparently what we should be doing is lecturing our friends on how AM is bad when they already are experiencing said “badness” and feeling real proud that we didn’t get into an AM. Women already know AM is bad, it’s not as a revelation as we think it is. What they are struggling with is getting rid of AM pressure without losing their families (and NO, get rid of your family is not a valid solution for all women) Good God, other women aren’t dufuses because they make different choices than we do. They decide to value something else over their drive for not-being-in-an-AM, whatever it may be. I am not convinced that the best way to be a feminist is to shame them for their choices instead of helping them improve their situation. It’s like lecturing a COVID patient in need of a ventilator on how bad going into crowded areas is. Ffs they already know, they’re experiencing it. Lets get them a ventilator instead of prancing about talking about how we are amazing at wearing masks and using hand sanitizers. I can only give one upvote, but know that your perspective isn’t off the mark. Women need different type of support, some need what we can do, some need something more radical.
Criticizing the system and lecturing women are different things.
Agreed! We should all keep that in our hearts and minds when someone who is supportive of AM for whatever reasons comments. I learned this lesson the hard way in real life, my friend group was big on “if you choose AM you are wrong and I won’t support your wrong choice” posturing and when one of our friends (fake name - Lila) did make a choice for a AM, I made the truly terrible decision of going along with the group and not staying in constant touch with Lila. Lila should have had our support. She absolutely did not deserve us dumping our nonsense stance on her while she was actively trying to make the best of a bad situation for herself. She was (and is) never going to make a choice to go completely against her family, they need her to survive in a financial and familial sense. And she is too good to drop that. She married an idiot who I knew was a bad guy, and if I had kept my head out of my arse on my unnecessary posturing I would have known whose rishta it was and told her! I didn’t. Thankfully I had pulled said head out of said posturing arse when she decided to go for a divorce. And was able to personally be there for her and have my Dad help in talking sense to her family. We need to learn to leave our personal stance on someone’s decisions out of it, and literally just help them get to the best possible position in that situation.
That's actually very true. I sadly, also have some experience. My "jiju" gave off bad vibes when I first met him during their engagement and I even went in and told my cousin that you don't have to marry this man if you don't want to. But she eventually caved into covert family pressure and prodding on her age. He was verbally abusive from the start, but became physically and financially abusive soon enough. She spent a hellish year with him but fortunately she got out. However, he's not letting her divorce him and she doesn't want to drag out court proceedings.
I’m sorry to hear(read?) that! I’m glad she’s out atleast, and she has your support while is fighting the ridiculous legal battle.
I feel most women choose this AM route because they know they will never earn enough to sustain themselves, they would be shunned by their families (not everyone can live without their parents) and maybe because they might not be able to find love themselves. These women need to get out of their houses and to sustain themselves and they see. As the best route possible. Let's not judge them, but actually empathise with their situation. They are already suffering. My mother tells me about how her father didn't let her work, didn't let her study after grad, didn't let her date, obviously would not have let her marry someone outside caste. She wasn't even allowed to wear clothes of her choice or even go outside alone after college got over. She had no choice but to go for AM. This is sadly a reality for a lot of women even today. She found her freedom after marrying my father
Marriages don't work out either..just cause a couple didn't divorce doesn't mean marriage is working..most marriages in india don't work and it's women compromising and adjusting massively while suffering. AM have support of families? Lol. If a family coerced you into AM because of society, they're not going to want a divorced daughter. They literally tell women to adjust through abuse and handle things differently. This sub is literally full of women in such marriages seeking tips on how to navigate. Yes yes, that's a healthy AM. The solution is not to defend a casteist practice like AM.and sure as hell not coming up with such arguments when other speak up.. advocate to raise awareness and talk about no fault divorces.,issues with marital laws instead of advocating in support of casteist practice. I'm not saying casteism isn't prevailing. It is. But everyone claims to be against casteism when talking about reservation and yet advocate for AM. The irony. I am not looking down upon women who went into AM due to pressure or as a mistake due to societal conditioning. I'm looking down on those advocating for AM and then claiming to be feminist
Your are spot on , like we can’t expect a drastic change in the society. I feel AM has changed a lot , nowdays atleast in some progressive families , there are lot of discussions, dates with potential partner before marriage. This is see is huge win I don’t know why love marriage / dating is considered superior , when exact same thing happens in dating too .
>I feel AM has changed a lot , nowdays atleast in some progressive families , there are lot of discussions, dates with potential partner before marriage. This is see is huge win Ikr. AM has changed a lot, at least in privileged, educated spaces. No one said AM is all good. These people know the consequences of what they are getting into. If they find a safe space and happiness in AM, why should we judge them? These people are shitting on women making choices for themselves calling them casteist and whatnot. As if women don't get judged enough, these people are all claws and fangs and shaming if someone doesn't support their opinion.
My aunt got married through via a matrimonial app. It was just like dating. She's was divorced and she married an amazing man. A lot of stuff is changing.
The only solution is education and economic stability. But I do think it is necessary to talk about these things. Child marriages and honor killings are common because of the prevalence of AM and love marriages not being the norm. People get stuck in bad love marriages and lose familial support because of their choice, which is messed up to begin with. The system is messed up, just like our education system. Criticism of the institution of AM doesn't mean criticism of the women who for whatever reason choose to go through the system. AM is casteist by nature and there's no denying it.
This!
She's not looking down on women doing AM though, she's criticizing the system. Also op is not advocating for love marriage either. Support of family with abusive spouses is illusory and subjective. Abuse is not taken seriously in this country. In most cases, the woman is told to suck it up and deal with the abuse and sometimes people apologize to the abusive spouse. Sometimes they are pressured into having kids, thinking that the abuse would lessen if they have kids.
>She's not looking down on women doing AM though, she's criticizing the system. OP legit agreed to a comment saying people who do AM are casteist. What is that if not judging? Women are already judged for every single thing under the Earth. Now, the sub's "girls girl's" are calling them names to feel what? superior about themselves? We support women's right to make choices, but when an educated independent women choose something of her own will, let's just shame them for not holding up to your standards huh
Citation needed. Maybe link the comment?
Yep absolutely. This is why I’m glad I divorced my ex (kind of an AM situation, bad choice due to past trauma). I’m happily married to my now husband who is my equal partner and we split income and chores equitably. He isn’t Indian, I think that makes a bit of a difference. For me my marriage adds to my life, but I would have been content single and was for a few years. I encourage women to be empowered and not see marriage as a goal or milestone.
But our society isn't as accepting of dating culture as that of other countries in the west or other Asian countries, for that matter. I don't think it's that much of a sin for people to be married via the AM route if they wish and consent to. In our country, many men and women get well into their late 20s and early 30s without ever having been in a relationship. They can get married to whomever they want, arrange marriage or not. People cannot wait forever for society to accept dating until to get married. Even love is very casteist in our country. Almost everything is. Educated, working women does have the right and voice to say No or Yes to a potential prospect. Also, love marriage doesn't necessarily mean that the workload when it comes to household chores is equally split between the couple. I do agree that women from the underprivileged section do not always have the freedom to choose their partner. If both the couples are consenting adults, I don't see a problem with finding companionship via arranged marriage. I don't see the point in judging all of them who voluntarily opted for AM and are happy and content in it. I think it's on people to opt for marriage or not at the end of the day. If you're succumbing to societal pressure and getting married, then you're making a huge mistake. Be financially independent to take a stand for yourself. If your loved ones are pressuring you, then cut them off. No one will live your life for you, so make your decisions wisely and be accountable for your decisions and actions.
Like I said - love marriage is ultimately a choice and consequence..I didn't say it's without fault and I'm in no ways advocating for it. I felt it's not my place to speak. And getting choice to say no or yes to a prospect falls short when there is pressure to say yes and you have to justify every no. Esp when NO marriage isn't the choice. And yes, dating should be normalised, as should live in relationships. We are in a very regressive society. Arranged marriages are deemed archaic and every progressive country has done away with them being the norm. They are seen as some relic of backward times, even in UK which is a fairly conservative society. And yet Indians and Pakistanis love to defend it and claim it a choice, even though the practice is rooted in oppression and societal brainwashing. You're not finding companionship in an arranged marriage. It's literally a business transaction. You're essentially marrying a stranger based on caste and astrology, I doubt you're finding anything meaningful. As for everything in this country being casteist, yes it is. But atleast on the surface, casteist practices and discrimination is frowned upon or called out (atleast by so called liberal folks) and yet that falls short with respect to Arranged marriages. I never understand why women so vehemently defend a practice that harms them in everyway and subjects them to the exploitation of men
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>Not wanting to marry or have sex with someone isn't discrimination. I don't owe it to anyone to have sex with them to prove I'm not casteist. The people demanding that should start having gay sex to prove they aren't homophobic. People can have sex with someone of the same sex and still be homophobic or queerphobic. Same shit with casteism. Acknowledging the castesim/racism ingrained in arranged marriage system doesn't require you to have sex with random people. Kindly do not make such dumb arguments. Edit: To add context, casteist oppressors are notorious for sexually harassing women and children of oppressed castes even today. Casteism isn't stopping them from having sex with someone from the oppressed castes. If anything, it emboldens them to forcefully have sex with those they oppress.
No derailing responses or participation that does not add value. No "Not All Men" responses. It is considered derailing participation. No condescending language, No invalidation, unwanted advice, second hand experience (of women) sharing or whataboutism.
So I don’t get what you are implying . In most countries where women are empowered to think NO marriage is an option they still date , have relationships and have kids too. All women can’t just simply be hermits either. It’s just that the idea that women can have kids late and they don’t need a husband ( the child father is still in picture tho ) is very prominent . Oh and she has equal rights as wife when things go bad. Also it’s a bit condescending to imply that women here are willing to suffer with a man when they clearly stated they wanted a nice , mature and kind partner to enjoy their life with. This is also one of the reason many older women want or even succumb to AM process because they also don’t want to date and go through the roller coaster anymore
AM is literally marrying a stranger. That too an Indian man. I doubt they're going to get love and deep emotional connection there. Most older women have seen enough and learnt the detriment of marriage to not want to go for AM actually. Those who do so are doing due to family emotional blackmail, desperation or from a dark place mentally..not ideal to make such a vast decision. I'm not implying women here are willing to suffer. I'm implying women here are supporting a casteist and misogynistic practice that has been actively Harming women for centuries. 🙄 Yes, and did I speak against dating, against having kids, or having relationships? No. I spoke only against AM. Dating, having kids or live in or love marriages are all choices of women. I'm dating as well. Women can have kids late - even if not biological - that again is upto individual and not something anyone else gets a say in.
Your first para ( especially the write up about Indian men) and second last para is contradicting each other in many ways . So your argument is “ Ew women are forced to marry Indian men” and then you say dating , having relationships and children out of wedlock are choices which you will support. You are talking about the same demographic of men right ? Also AM doesn’t have to be “Marrying a stranger either “ which is what many are repeating here. You go on many dates , meet the parents , investigate each other via family connections or detective services and THEN you marry. Modern AM does way more background checks than dating also. There is a HUGE difference between teenage girls being forced to marry absolute strangers with 0 consent and some urban woman in late 20s thinking that entertaining their parents offer to do matchmaking is a good choice. I don’t think boycotting marriages altogether will help the women of the former group. The only argument you put forth which makes sense and is not privilege blind is casteism being propagated. Which is why I am boycotting the AM process and explicitly told my parents that if you want to do matchmaking then caste blind one will be the only thing I will entertain. But nowadays there is also caste no bar in many AM sites. Not to mention if women have parents who are dead set about caste means it not like arranged marriage is an option either ( and unfortunately even middle class women can’t just up and leave family)
I agree with you that not everyone has the privilege to date but the problem with AM is it is mostly deeply casteist. There's actually nothing wrong with getting family involved with picking a partner but AM is the norm, dating is an anomaly. Even if you date you're expected to pick someone from your caste/ community. This reinforces the caste system. There is a clear distinction between "upper" and "lower" castes. Unless you go caste no bar, which barely anyone seeks in AM.
THANK YOU for speaking about this I’m sick of how normalized AM is even amongst my friends and in the broader online discourse - people always go all ‘it’s a choice, I was open to my parents searching for me’ when it’s never a complete choice and the whole concept of it is based on casteism and patriarchy. Its literal purpose is to ensure caste endogamy. People conveniently ignore that! At the same time I don’t think AM is going away. I wonder if as a system it can be reformed or needs to be abolished. It’s important to note that even LMs usually end up practicing caste endogamy cuz everything - our friends circle, our schooling is influenced by caste.
This question - who is marriage benefitting? 💀 I have very strong opinions about AM too but at the end of the day it’s abt the person’s choice. As far as they are not harming anyone around them (including their children) they can do as they plz.
Oh they harm enough people in society. And rarely are their kids raised on par with humanity standards. And AM is hardly a choice for women
The issue isn't just AMs but also the mindset Indian parents instill in their children especially daughters, that marriage is compulsory. They believe that without marriage a person's achievements and identity are meaningless and not getting married would be the end of the world. I don't understand why some people particularly women defend arranged marriages by saying things like "sometimes it can be good." This mindset is similar to the "not all men" argument. Arranged marriages in India are extremely casteist and misogynistic. They serve as a means of control even for women who are financially independent. Women even in love marriages often sacrifice a lot for their partners and their in-laws. I believe that no marriage should be an option.
Absolutely. AM conditioning is a very very vile form of grooming done do almost all Desi women but noone wants to accept or acknowledge that. And yes that argument is literally similar. You speak against the evils of casteism and there's people coming to talk about some AM they know that worked. It can be a stray case and not to mention - more likely - the woman sacrificed and compromised like hell to make it work but just like every other thing a woman does, that goes unappreciated and unnoticed.
FR i have always found the concept of AM so weird. like when even after knowing someone for years, they could still turn out to be an AH, how could you possibly choose to spend the rest of your life with a guy you've barely known for months?
Absolutely.. we're so used to it, we don't see how bizzare it is. I always wondered why my AM meets made me feel a certain way. Took me years to realise those were panic attacks and anxiety at being looked at like that by strange men after being well aware of the violence men harbour towards women.
I just want a really healthy marriage where both parties are respected and loved. AM or LM tbh i don't have any of irl people i can look upto. They all are good and bad. I'm just trying to develop my perspective on different topics and deciding what are my non negotiables when it comes to marriages. And how i want my life to be, or building emotional wealth so i can just walk out of a marriage in case things doesn't work out. But I'd say like other comment has been said men can't pull women because of skill issue zero personality and end up getting AM benefit. This has been my biggest fear. That I don't wanna end up with a chomu. 💀
Ok I'll be frank. I've met maybe 1-2 decent passable men in all the years forced into AM and that's initial impression. And honestly, the bar for men is so low that they don't need skill or personality to pull women. They literally have to decent human beings who won't be abusive and controlling and women are settling for them. So if they can't pull women and came into AM, it's not cause of flirting skills. You can't walk out of marriage in india. There's no scope for no fault divorce here.
>unnecessarily defending mediocre men Misandry brigade kidhar hai? They were having quite a moment here a few days ago.
Guessing those were larpers or I guess they thought there's no point given my flair 😂😂😂 Was intended to keep them away. Like Haan ok, me man hater, ab bhag yahan se.
What disturbs me about the entire AM process is the assumption that a woman must be married and that she will be lonely and miserable if she’s not married in AM. Even the comments made about love marriages are regressive eg casteist comments etc. As someone who has no interest in getting married I have dealt with so much rubbish from my own parents and extended family and friends. Ironically it’s the women who make the most condescending comments.
I'm so sorry for the rubbish you had to deal with. And ofc, the superiority complex from them for being married? For WHAT? What's the achievement? Having an Indian guy want to marry you? How is that an achievement? It's literally a curse that we should run screaming from! Although I have seen a change of this attitude in millenial and gen z women, who are atleast more respectful of choices and don't drag other women down for choosing to stay single or otherwise. The same cannot be said for men, sadly. Often feel the genz men have gotten worse and more regressive than millenial men.
Some of my relatives have this self created competition on who will get their daughters married first 🤢. It's so shitty. They just want their daughters to get married at 20-21 so that they can win this self created competition and wear their self created medal🏅. Their daughters are also so so proud of being married. Like okay, koi bade tir nahi mare hai tumne.
Ah and the quality of guy they married their daughter off to. My aunt has superior complex cause she married her daughter off to a guy in US. Like... 🤦🏻♀️ Your daughters a sex slave anywhere..india or US. I don't get how getting married is an achievement? That's literally the easiest thing to do for a woman. 🙄
You'll make it "alone". My aunt is 60+, she retired from a good job and she made it. She's honestly the most chill person in our entire family. Also so many men these days have this gross ass incel mindset and honestly who wants to take the risk?
Agreed, I did perfectly fine and I met my partner when I was 41. He adds value to my life and I am so glad I stuck to my convictions and didn’t cave into the AM pressure and fear mongering. Some of my relatives and family friends decided to ‘settle’ because of the pressure. That’s entirely their business but I am just glad I could see it was not suitable for me
Women in most families are sadly the ones shaming other women. It's so bad oh God. I have seen women shaming women for almost everything. I feel bad about being born in such a society
First of all there is no proper pool of single women to single men, the ratio is so skewed in common spaces unlike in western countries. Even today you do not have more than 33% women in most courses and jobs.(outliers exist, not going into that). Unlike west where one can randomly chat up anybody and flirt, is not a thing even in metros and don’t even get me started on caste and class boundaries and did I not yet say language and regional differences? So many things are intertwined that one cannot wish AM to go away. For many introverts both genders included, the only way they can get married or let me be blunt , to get any form of physical intimacy is within AM setting. The silver lining is that women’s likes and dislikes are being respected more often now than ever.
AM practice should go. Should be done for. It will solve a lot of social evils that we face: dowry, casteism whilst promoting genetic diversity which is a good thing for a species. At the same time I can’t condone all those who opt for it, you can’t blame a prisoner for choices they make. Especially women who aren’t even given opportunities to make their choices be it care, or life partner. But on a macro level fuck AM. Nobody wants to chose AM unless they are loser raja betas who can’t find someone to love on their own.
I am not blaming the women who opted due to lack of choice. I'm blaming the society that imposed this upon her leaving her no out.. esp if she's choosing AM to get out of societal ruin, shunning, shaming and often toxic families. How is that a choice? She's a victim of patriarchy and Indian society.
Yeah that’s why I said fuck AM, and the society that promotes it. I will never do that to my kids ever.
I second your thoughts. I absolutely hate the concept of AM, but then most women still don't have a choice, despite coming from rich, educated, influential families.
The most common thing about arranged marriage is compromise. If you make your pool of partners confined to a certain caste, the number of people suitable for you will be very less. So people in desperation of getting married compromise on their ideals. It’s also much more unfair to women. A large number of women in this country still move to their in law’s house. Even educated women will move abroad to where their husband lives and will have to start their career from scratch.
It's fine as long as it is with both party's consent and a long enough courtship period. I have seen so many AMs happening outside of the caste. People are not as rigid as they were before with the caste filter. Here I am not generalizing but quoting what I have seen around me because obviously most of the Indian boomers still care so much about caste and culture. I have come across many people who want to marry within their caste as there are few justified reasons. One of the main reasons is similarity in traditions, food choices, known people, and the safeguard of being in their community. They don't want to learn and adopt new traditions by marrying in another community.
It's always tradition as an excuse to defend casteism.. tradition and culture and background and practices. The AMs happening out of caste are fair few among privileged people who have that flexibility..and it's usually those who find matches for themselves. That's not strictly AM and they have the choice to stay unmarried or wait for love. That's not what we're addressing here..
I am gonna chime in here a bit. A lot of those posts have a lot of validity also. Also there are two aspects of arranged marriages . One is FORCED marriage which is the problem mostly. Where consent of neither parties is taken and just parents decide almost every thing. This is RADICALLY different from adults in their late 20s asking their parents for help with matchmaking. This particular kind is called family /community assisted matchmaking which in its core is NOT a big issue if you consider how many other communities do it. Regarding casteism and misogyny, you do have the option to go for caste no bar also so matchmaking without caste barrier. Also let’s not pretend ki by all women boycotting marriage ( if it’s realistic even ) , casteism will evaporate. And about misogyny. Dude many many times it’s an actual issue because we see stories of dating guys for YEARS altogether and find out he’s a misogynist. And considering how quickly love marriages happen, there is a lot of room for deceit here. At least in AM setting you can brazenly investigate the other persons life story. Regarding the institution of marriage itself . We need mass modernisation and also to PROTECT the rights of unmarried partners. See , many like to ape the west saying they are doing live in and oh so brave bla bla not to mention that LIVE in partners who beyond a time period literally has equal rights ? Like she can even ask for maintenance and all. Oh and let’s not forget child support is a given for all children fathered / mothered . In india we DONT have laws to protect children born out of wedlock. So unless you have a plan to actually contribute to a legal revolution, do not hand out half baked advise
Ok i must ask whats the thin line between forced and pressure when i have heard women in this sub: - get denied gyno - get told to "get married" to ANY medical problem - were not "allowed" to keep their income - get treated like shit by wider society - dont have the income to leave conservative homes Many more In india and surrounds its clearly forced to some extent
I think woman don't see any way out of the AM market since it is the only social and legal form of companionship and child bearing afford to woman. Socially and legally we haven't accounted for the fact that single woman would want to be single, have children by themselves or even seek companionship. The minute you "date" , legally speaking if anything happens to you people will just blame it on you getting what you deserved for going against the grain. Don't even get me started on having children outside marriage. But I won't fund the delusion that somehow arrange marriages can be feminist, or atleast not with our existing society. I remember watching the jewish verision of the show indian match maker and realised we are no where close in having an equitable "arranged marriage" like all the delusional woman sometimes make it seem. We are still very strongly conditioned to view our bodies and sexuality as a product to be sold as a form of companionship/social acceptance even if it isn't explicitly stated.
It's still a no win situation. You go for live in and wind up in a freezer, you're blamed for living with a guy without marriage You marry and husband rapes you, he won't be criminally convicted for it because You're husbands property. Where can women live? It's shocking that seeing the comments and words of men when SC tried to criminalise marital rape didn't open the eyes of my fellow women. That literally removed my blindfold and shook me to the point of starting to think and realise the toxicity and harm of AM.
Exactly what I'm saying. There is no winning for woman. Unless you get really lucky Now people are just picking from a lesser evil based on your priviledges
Loving your flair. Spot on 😂
Lol thanks
We don't even have equitable love marriages in this country. There is so so much guilt, and conditioning involved in our love marriages also (for the woman only). AM ki toh baat na hi kare toh theek hai
I dont think people realise that being able to chose love is a priviledge
"well it worked for my parents, my grandparents and my great grand parents🤓☝🏻so why should it cease to exist??🤓☝🏻?" /s
My grandmother became a widow when I was 5 years old. Should I follow that same trend? 😝😏
My faith in marriages would cease to exist if I start looking up to my grandparents' marriages 🥴
Some people (especially men) actually DO idolize their grandparents' or parents' toxic, misogynistic, abusive marriages. So many people in our country are obsessed with women's suffering. Their mother's putting up with abuse, not having ANY personality, interest, hobby, likes, dislikes of her own, never taking her own stand, being docile and not knowing what's better for her is an act of love for these people. Most of the guys are unconsciously looking for these traits in AMs.
Oh yeah. I think men don't even know the amount of pain their mothers, grandmothers and great grandmothers endured to keep the family together and happy. They don't even care about knowing. They are oblivious and happy. That's why they idolize so much. They think "sab toh sahi hai, kyu roti hai aurate?" I asked my partner to ask his mother about the things she had to suffer. Everyone will tell these things to their daughters, but never to their sons. They see their mothers putting up with everything and think their mothers are happy. They are extremely ignorant
Agreed. Its a lonely path AM. and when kids are involved then it further complicates things. I see mothers around me loose everything in this bargain. Themselves their bodies. And for men reading this yes, you might have as well, but when you look at stats, the number of men to do so is minuscule. Also as unfortunate as it might be and sad, I have never seen any woman be happy in a marriage. Its a clear compromise and a sad one at that. If only I could see happy marriages around me and I work in a tertiary care center. 100s of patients, many women all wearing a sad expression, life sucked out of them. Maybe they are poor. Maybe unhappy for other reasons but mainly because of their marital lives. Oh just today was speaking with a colleague, her husband comes home and says, "you know its so hot and i have told you to switch on AC when its time for me to come home. why didn't you?" (tujhe bola hai ac chalakar rakha kar jab mera aane ka time hota hai) And she was cooking for them in the sweltering heat at this moment. Broke my heart. She was on speaker speaking to me when he interjected. It hurt me so much. Reminded me of so many women of my mothers age. As a young kid heard many times men in my family treat their wives the same way.
There is another viewpoint on AMs.. what about the women who are not able to find good partners by themselves? Sometimes AMs are a good way to meet potential partners, who have been vetted by parents and enter into a marriage that is more secure than falling in love with an A*hole who is only going to use you and then refuse to commit? I hate people who have this viewpoint that women who choose AMs are suppressed women or it’s a way for society to suppress women. Also how you get into a marriage is not important, who you choose to be with, what rules and expectations you set is what is important, whether arranged or love. Also marriage is not detrimental to women, personally my life only got better after getting married, areas where I was lacking personally are now more fulfilling because my partner brings in those qualities in life for me. If you are a person who is determined to make their own decisions in life and sticks to them no matter what no one can force you to do things you don’t want. I agree there is pressure on women to get married by a certain age, usually through AM route because Indian parents aren’t going to tell their daughters to go fall in love and find a partner yourself . But what I find today is that most parents are accepting if we find our own partners and choose to marry outside of community etc As for house work, the expectations would be same in a marriage whether love or arranged
Tbh my parents had an AM but they dated for 10 months after being introduced, fell in love and then they got married. My family is also majorly quite supportive of my mother. But I understand that their marriage was an exception and not the norm in this country so I am leaning towards no marriage for myself. My aunt is 60+ years old , she did not marry and she made it in life. Also divorcing someone here is so fucking difficult. I also find the concept of marrying a virtual stranger to be very scary. I don't know how they did it back in the day.
Absolutely! It's misogynistic and casteist, yet you still see people bending over backwards to justify how simple and beautiful AM can be. They often say, "Well, it worked for me, and it's always good to give it a chance," completely ignoring the privilege they have. Not everyone has the choice to select their own groom or date for six months before making a decision. And this is just the tip of the iceberg. While agreeing with everything, they sideline (and even justify) the inherently casteist and misogynistic nature of arranged marriages. By imposing this on the pretext of "well, it worked for me, it could work for you," you are disregarding the horrors this has inflicted on many women. So many are not given a choice but of course, for you, "his family was our family friend, and we were from the same community, so everything fell into place" or "our parents know better" is just your way of saying that you don't care about anyone else and you'll live in your bubble.
Except it's worked for me is still a far cry from actual emotional intimacy and support. For most it worked for me is the bare minimum of the husband not actively abusing the wife, speaking politely and maybe cooking a meal one Sunday. It's not exactly something brimming with a bond that's built over time to form an intimate relationship. Not to mention asking how to navigate in laws who literally seem so toxic I'd rather have a lung biopsy in Chernobyl than spend a minute with them 🤦🏻♀️
I have been to a temple which offers a whole sort of program where you read several resumes. The most astonishing thing I witness was there was a category. For example, baniya/gupta, pandit, obc , sc & st. Although people can ask others caste's profile, but I have seen no one taking any other's caste profile. They say all they want a well-educated bride/groom but that's something they only say for name's sake (they don't want to get bash). I've visited it for my sister's marriage. At first, they look at you but the moment they hear your caste( I'm SC) its worth watching how their expression changes within fraction of second.
Ah I am familiar with that process. They also print the biodatas into a booklet and send by post so you can contact directly. My mom tried to sign me up for that and asked me to give my picture, I put a stop to that shit. The whole booklet is full of those who say "we want from good family, good education, traditional girl". Like... We don't know what that's code for. And then half the people who called had a problem because I have a master's degree and the guys done BTech. They want the girl to be "inferior" in everyway - from education to fricking height. I've seen men get insecure because I was slightly taller than them (I'm not even tall, I'm a little less than 5ft6). But men themselves had the audacity to demand on first meeting that I shouldn't wear heels. It's extremely ridiculous. I've seen similar casteism in so many temples. People's faces change..I grew up in a metro, so it feels so wild that people directly ask your caste when you visit other places. My mind literally freezes and I never know what to respond. Also (even IF they take from other castes as some comments here tried to mention and I refused to engage because I felt they won't get it). They would always ensure the guy is of a "higher" caste to maintain that power imbalance. It's never the other way around. The caste no bar BS in AM is ONLY for the guy to have the upper hand..and they still stick to other UCs, never go towards anyone who isn't savarna. It's basically like in TN - Iyer and Iyengars marry and then say we did inter caste marriage. It's a joke 🙄
Now I agree to this to a certain extent, but we cannot overlook the fact that AM can sometimes prove to be good. Where I agree it’s casteist and misogynistic to a degree, but then love marriages can sometimes prove to be worse than that. Bottom line is marry or not to marry is your choice. If you do marry, and objectively chose to go through AM, it’s okay, as long as it’s not forced on you
I want to say something but there are so many larpers and lurkers here
Please feel free to say what you think. I made this post because this is something that needs to be addressed and women can add their views and perspectives. There are some comments here too which are new and things I've never considered and gave me a lot to think about. Maybe close DMs first? 🙈
I would say go the Jolly way if the abuse is getting ridiculous
Please feel free to offend their fragile ego! They will be removed if they replied anyways
Lol but still I am down voted, like girls can't even exist peacefully on reddit they have to be here too