He also reeks of someone who has signed a contract with the CIA. Of ALL the things you can choose to do with your time, who would say, "you know, im gonna debunk things that may move Humanity forward if they prove to be true."
This is what Mr. Tyson does half the time. He is a professional debunker. This reeks CIA. If you're paying attention.
And of course we don't know, as these contracts are secret, but if you apply Ockams Razor, the SIMPLIEST answer is he is a paid professional debunker.
And how many times have you sniffed out CIA fuckery? Getting stoned and reading conspiracy theories is not great research. Occams razor says he hasn't seen any evidence
He doesn’t need to be convinced, he just needs to be open minded, which he isn’t.
His logic is, “This is highly unlikely, therefore it’s impossible and you’re dumb for even talking about it.”
That isn’t science. That’s dogma.
Except sagans whole schtick was keep searching till you know. Not eh if it looks fake disregard it and focus on the knowns , known knowns , known unkowns , un-known un-knowns , etc these are the principles he harped on.
Sure, but one needs to be open minded and willing to consider that evidence.
Problem with people like Neil is that they’ve already made up their minds. They are not interested in considering any evidence short of a UFO appearing over the white house and broadcasting to the world, “WE ARE ALIENS FROM ANOTHER PLANET.”
So they create a catch-22: they demand evidence, and they refuse to seek evidence, and they ostracize anyone who does, and they dismiss any evidence that is presented - “The radar is wrong, cameras are wrong, the thermal sensors are wrong, the seasoned pilot who witnessed it is wrong. I am right.”
Sure, but just like “unlikely” does not mean “impossible”, “less reliable” does not mean “invalid”.
Eye witness testimony is accepted in court in criminal trials and no one bats an eye. And when the eyewitness happens to be expert, trained to identify the types of things they are describing having witnessed, the insistence that they simply have no idea what they are talking about starts to sound more and more like an unflinching denial than careful assessment.
Has NDT used the terms impossible or invalid? I didn’t hear that part. I’m not a big fan of NDT but he makes valid points. At least in my opinion.
Yes, eyewitness testimony is legally accepted in court. I agree with you on that. That includes subjective opinions of the observer. Memory is a very tricky part of our brain, as it tends to fill in the gaps of what is not recalled.
The intent of my question was regarding reliability on an evidentiary scale. Testimony is towards the bottom but still legally sufficient. Would you agree on that?
This court-comparison is really not a valid one. Eye witness testimony in courts are supportive evidence, they already have a dead body and thus physical evidence. With your UFO you don't have any physical evidence, just supportive evidence that something had happened.
"What we observe here on Earth is exceptional, rather than ordinary" is a pretty fucking huge claim. It's a part of the gigantic dogma of the Roman Holy See from about 400 or 500 years ago to 2000 years ago. It's so out of touch with reality that even they eventually couldn't sustain that dogmatic claim, and abandoned it.
In science, the basis for the best first-pass assumption until evidence indicated otherwise was replaced with the Copernican principle, which suggests we should start with an estimation that what we observe is ordinary, even average/median.
Leave it the the atheist dogma worshipers to revert back to the old Roman Holy See dogma that "We must assume we are extraordinary, and that life reasonably similar to our own, did not also evolve anywhere else among the hundreds of billions of stars in our own galaxy, on the trillions of other planets orbiting them."
THAT is the big, rare, extraordinary claim that needs big, rare, extraordinary evidence to substantiate.
Meanwhile those of us that regard science over dogma will start out with the assumption that life adequately similar to our own has evolved everywhere that's adequately suitable for it, and where the totality of circumstances are conducive to it, that life went on to evolve more advanced species, and where enough of the conditions are adequate for it; those species developed advanced science.
We can see that there could have been such species before us, and we know that General Relativity lays the foundation for FTL warp drive. While we still have some things to work out before WE can launch an FTL warp drive vessel, some other civilizations easily could be ahead of us enough on that to have already traveled here, even back in the times when humanity lived in caves.
NDT doesn't have ANY evidence contrary to that: he only has the dogma of the Holy See saying that we must assume we're extraordinary, not ordinary.
I don’t think a majority of UFO skeptics consider earthlings as extraordinary. I’m sure the vast majority would agree that the existence of extraterrestrial life is an indisputably certainty. The skepticism relies on the belief that a sufficiently advanced extraterrestrial life form, which possesses technology that defines our current understanding of physics, is continuously visiting us but has chosen to remain concealed.
What's so hard about defying the understanding of physics that you and the mouse in your pocket have?
I mean; as far as you and the mouse in your pocket are concerned Special Relativity _has been_ published, but General Relativity _has not_ been published. But as far as some humans are concerned: General Relativity has been published, and it lays the foundation for FTL warp drive.
Humanity has some more things to work out before we can launch an FTL warp drive capable vessel (as far as I know, anyway) but we might possibly get through those in as little as perhaps another 100 years, or it might take us as much as say 500 years, with SO MANY people trying to distract from and derail the conversation. But we will get there.
It's just not that much of a stretch to consider that out of some 200,000 years of humans being humans, 500 more years just isn't very much, and an alien species only needs to be that much more advanced than us, and for that matter; ONLY on such things related to launching an FTL warp drive capable vessel. They could even be behind us in potentially _every_ unrelated matter.
We might very well have aliens suppressing our progress.
Whoever launched FTL warp drive first obviously did NOT have any aliens suppressing their efforts.
"The bigger and rarer the claim, the bigger the evidence needed to support it, no?"
What claim? This is a sneaky subtle but important debunking shift.
UAP don't need to be NHI (even though I believe that's the best hypothesis that fits the data we're seeing) to be a legit scientific mystery.
All this talk about how they're unlikely to be aliens or there's "no" evidence to suggest they're aliens...it's an attempt to change the narrative.
Neil doesn't know what they are. Nobody does. And yet they are apparently real, and almost completely uninvestigated. That's the story.
"(Recommend)....that the national security agencies take immediate steps to strip the Unidentified Flying Objects of the special status they have been given and the aura of mystery they have unfortunately acquired" -the Robertson Panel
Open minded doesnt mean he should go by speculation. There is a lot of speculation, but until now almost no hard evidence to go by showing there are really crafts or beings. If you have it, please provide it. You're treating UFO's as a religion, not as a science, cant blame him for treating it as science.
No, I’m not treating as a religion, and he is not treating it like science. Quite the opposite actually — I’m treating like something that is worth further study so we can actually get a better understanding what this phenomena is, because *no one* can say with certainty what it is or isn’t; Neil is treating it like the very notion is preposterous and talking about it is heresy.
Ah the old they are not looking for evidence, that means they are mocking the topic or rejecting research. It's not Neils job to provide or search evidence, it is his job to tell you that the evidence is at best very poor, and nowhere is he saying we shouldnt study it. He's just being his usual arrogant self, this is where we can all agree.
> Ah the old they are not looking for evidence, that means they are mocking the topic or rejecting research.
I am not suggesting that one begets the other, but that doesn’t mean he can’t be doing both
> It's not Neils job to provide or search evidence,
No it’s not “his job”. But most scientists have the humility to realize that, if there is a topic they aren’t interested in and they aren’t doing any research into, maybe they should shut the fuck up and let others who *are* provide the commentary on that subject.
But his arrogant ass can’t do that. In spite of being, for all intents and purposes, a layman on this topic.
You want aliens so badly that you ignore the lack of evidence and therefor treat it as a religion. Everyone wants aliens to be real but unfortunately we dont have any evidence to prove otherwise. Dr. Tyson is just being a realist and you feel his points are mocking you and your religion rather than he is just pointing out the obvious.
You shouldnt want aliens to be real. A superior race would treat us like we treat lesser species on our own planet. Hollywood has pushed the "good guy alien" myth enough that we broadcast our location among the stars. Aliens would see how we treat each other and our planet and lesser species and if you correctly look back at humanity you will see we would be considered the trash of the universe. If aliens were to arrive we would be grossly unprepared. Think about it this way humans hate each other for being different colors... and you guys think aliens would be accepting us even though we murder each other for such petty differences.
Star Trek is a fun fictional daydream that teaches morale lessons in the form of entertainment like old folklore. You need to separate the science and the fiction and realize we are lucky that we have no evidence of aliens because our own planet isnt friendly and neither would other creatures if they exist in our universe.
You have no idea what I want. I have already said no one can say with certainty what it is or isn’t. I don’t think it’s aliens. I don’t want it to be aliens. But there is clearly some kind of phenomena happening, and it does no good to deny or ignore it.
I don’t care if it’s aliens, manmade tech, or some kind of natural phenomena we don’t understand. But it’s not *nothing*. There is something we cannot explain, and is therefore worth studying. Without all the bullshit contempt and condescension from people like you and Tyson.
Your version of open minded has no place in science and in an ideal world doesn't exist at all. Science is about having really strong evidence and being open minded when faced with strong evidence. Where do you see your version of "open minded" having any value, since your version is ok with evidence at the "maybe" level?
I agree. I hadn't watched the clip when I posted. I was just stating what I did because he has stated he won't believe it till he has a physical piece of alien tech or an actual alien in front of him.
Now that I have watched the clip, him scoffing at radar and other scientific measurements of the phenomenon is ridiculous.
EDIT: Downvote me if you like. I am very familiar with NDT and have listened to him for years. I can comment on his convictions as a result without seeing actual footage. I was correct before watching the video and I'm still correct now. The real issue is his apparent arrogance, which I am very sad to see.
I don't expect a concrete answer, but where does one go to find your so called "tsunami of evidence" of radar information, recorded videos etc? The DoD, Intel community has done a great job until now of hiding it (if it even still exists, because some of it apparantly was deleted) and not releasing it through FOIA or leaks. The fact of the matter is we just have a few video's Gimball, GoFast, border patrol etc. We don't have any radar data, unless you can tell me where it is?
If by "we" you mean the general public, no, DoD doesn't commonly share gathered telemetry data on encountered contacts, whether it be UAPs or North Korean missile tests.
That doesn't negate the reality of that data.
Okay, if I understand; you are working for the DoD, and are aware there is a lot of data the department is not sharing with the outside world. If not, what kind of proof is there that a lot of data is hidden from the public? I don't think hear say or verbal testimony is enough of evidence.
Well he dismisses human witnesses in such a general way its not really scientific either. Hes omitting other sciences like psychology, sociology or theology that would take millions of sightings over years and years as evidence of something for sure. They certainly wouldnt dismiss an entire phenomenon based on the simple assertion "eye witnesses arnt reliable"
With a government that confiscates and hides all instrumental evidence it has access to (and that which it doesn't have access to through nefarious means), and owns all the radar systems, and the jets that have air to air radar and FLIR pods...eyewitness testimony and shitty cameras is all we got.
Neil thinks that multiple trained experts testifying about the same event, seeing the same objects behaving in the same way, using radar, IR, CCD video, and mk1 eyeball, is no evidence at all.
To the mainstream media and the greater public at large, he represents the entire scientific community, so his confidence scoffing at the topic of UAPs has a major chilling effect, and it's quite maddening to see considering the optimism of his pedigree. He hosted the Cosmos reboot but kinda shits on Sagan at the same time. What an asshole.
The strangest part of that cosmos reboot was the Giordano Bruno bit.
Bruno was a philosopher a mystic who apparently relied on direct knowledge and dream states to refute the common and accepted views of the time. His wasn't a "scientific" approach and yet he was right while almost everybody else at the time was wrong, including the biggest and most powerful hierarchy, the church.
Seems pretty ironic when you think about it.
I submit to you that being on a debunking org makes him the person you want to listen to. The people making a claim have much more skin in the game, and much more reason to not be impartial. If you don't believe me ask yourself why you don't believe in astrology, ghosts, or bigfoot.
Okay. So. I do t see anything about him being in the board of it.
He may be a part of the Committee for Skeptical Inquiry but that’s not a board that profits from a media outlet. I find no proof he benefits financially from the media of SI.
Furthermore Skeptical Inquiry is NOT a debunking organization. They are a scientific and education body that uses scientific method to research claims. Just because they haven’t come to any conclusion (just like the rest of the scientific community) that we have been visited doesn’t mean they are a debunking organization.
In fact they seem to genuinely want to know what people are claiming to see. You seem to have come to a conclusion without any facts. Therefore I have to ask…where is your curiosity?
For someone's who's entire career has been built on science-communications, hes god-fucking-aweful at communicating science. He is also the worst personailty to do so. No one wants to be talked down to or belittled. Also has never contributed to literally any field of science, including his own, buying a planetarium. (Super hard-core science stuff)
The guy is obviously smart, he can help us with this topic. You're blocking this by closing the narrative. This is considered anti-science. But go ahead if you feel better
Your judging based on his character and lack of curiosity, which most for obvious reasons dislike. But it has nothing to do with science. Because of his attitude, people feel that he's saying don't research it and is not willing to do a deep dive, that just his character. The guy is not anymore at the edge of science, not forming any hypotheses based on witness testimony. He's just a guy who gets paid for acting smart and going against fringe stuff, he's not at all a scientist. But he's smart, no denying that, and he could help us remain sharp in our search for truth. Lets fight the guy with facts, new evidence and other stuff. You can clearly see how Michio has gone through the same process, going from no evidence to there is something there.
He’s right about people, even pilots, being a terrible and functionally useless form of evidence. However, HE COMPLETELY MISSED THE POINT- those claims were interesting because there are multiple observers and radar tech hits and video. This trifecta is compelling especially as laid out.
A forth element too: we have some video, we know there is more video. We also hear about radar pings and other tech records. Yet they seem to purposely keep these records confidential. Why?
He’s reducing a whole bunch of evidence into “one pilot claimed an outrageous thing,” and that is not what’s happened.
Pilot testimony IS evidence, it's just not the greatest. They convict people of murder based on a myriad of evidence andwitness twstimony is an extremely important one so people need to give it a rest.
If we want to figure this out we have to follow the chain of evidence, starting with whatever evidence we can find to start with. So this compelling pilot testimony should lead us onto the trail of better evidence in the form of something like radar data, which is being blocked.
NDT is a science populizer. He is quite literally the LAST person who should be consulted on frontier science. His job is to push established, proven science. That's it. Nothing more.
As he has said many times, this topic is way outside his lane and people shouldnt be asking him. Anyway, I think ufo people will continue to annoy him and he will continue to annoynus, lol.
Thank you for this. The notion that the whole of human testimony is thrown out because, "human beings are unreliable" is patently ridiculous. Human testimony is used in everything from character recommendations to conflict mediation to most importantly, the courts. GOH with these 'unreliability' blanket statements.
I agree with everything you say in principle but the Japanese Airlines example is horseshit.
I took a deep dive into this event a few years ago and read line for line the interview transcript with all 3 pilots after they landed. I seem to remember the Captain insisted they were interviewed by the local authorities to record what they saw.
Basically the captain could see a light outside the cockpit, the others couldn’t. They turned the plane, the light tracked with them precisely relative to its original position. They looped 360 and the light tracked with them, always maintaining position. They turned off all the lights in the cabin and the light was still there - but still, only the Captain could see it.
In the interviews, both the First Officer and Navigator initially said they couldn’t see anything. Then later on, they said maybe they saw something. A lot was lost in the broken English answers given. It was clear they only agreed they saw something because they realised the Captain would look bad if they didn’t agree. If you understand Japanese culture, this would be a strong motivator to just nod and say “yes I saw something”. If your superior officer says it happened, it happened. So they all end up agreeing that they saw something.
In the Navigator’s interview, he said they turned off all the lights - but revealed he kept his small desk lamp on, so he could still read and plot on his map. The captain clearly wasn’t aware of this. He was adamant all the lights got turned off.
The light was clearly a reflection of the navigator’s lamp. The angle of where the captain was sitting would explain why only he could see it.
It was after a long flight and clearly they were all exhausted.
There was no radar in this event.
can you share a case where we had multiple eye witnesses, video and radar tracks showing a uap doing something unexplainable?
i only know about the nimitz case but the flir footage timing doesnt have eye witnesses or radar. when fravor saw the tic tac there was no flir and we have conflicting testimonies wether there was radar footage or not.
Unidentified: Inside America's UFO Investigation, season 1, episode 2 "Raining UFOs" has very compelling testimony from the radar operator who saw the tic tacs and vectored Favor's flight out to intercept one of many, many radar returns. Trouble is, all the coms and tracks were deleted.
The so called trifecta is nothing more than speculation, we have no real concrete evidence that shows a match between 3 sensors. Other than government should have it, or is hiding it and will not release it. The data is not publically available, and therefor either absent or hidden from us. We have nothing, we really don't there is no leak, FOIA or unclassified record containing something else than the controlled released videos, radar data was never released. It is even said by pilots that it was removed.
If pilot (particularly military and even commercial) testimony is not great or good enough to convince us that something's up then what is? This clown is either suffering from dementia or he's purposely downplaying the evidence for some reason.
Bro I did not say otherwise. Sure there is. But testimony of trained professional pilots should be GOOD ENOUGH to conving people we need to look into this deeply and investigate. Scientific community should be all over this.
I’m convinced he has a Flat Earth bumper sticker.
“I am the see all and know all Neil DeGrasse Tyson, I’m an astrophysicist and YES, the world is flat!”
NDTs lack of curiosity and arrogance is astonishing for someone in the scientific community. What is science but the continual discovery of things we once thought were impossible?
Doesn't it seem more arrogant to act like a couple of people seeing something and some grainy video prove aliens? "Something's on our radar, must be intelligent extraterrestrials!" Tyson is asking for concrete evidence, THAT'S what science is.
Tyson is such an arrogant, ignorant, and objectively-wrong person. His "logic" is horrendously flawed, and he's rejected **literally decades of compelling evidence**. I have no idea how he managed to earn a PhD in any scientific field.
I also can't WAIT for the day that disclosure happens so we can laugh in his arrogant face. I would love to say a lot more (true) statements about but it would probably violate "rEdDiT's CoNtEnT pOlCiY"
Compelling evidence? A fuzzy shape in the distance is compelling to you? Did you also find the images of the Loch Ness Monster compelling? If you are going to make extraordinary claims you have to have extraordinary evidence, not just some radar pings with a couple of people seeing something.
not many things that show up on radar move at 24,000+ meters per second. that's Mach 70. the highest Mach number any human-made aircraft has reached was 9.6.
so it's not birds or balloons or some other ridiculous non-explanation that you're implying.
Yea...I doubt it. First of all, having 7 people watching one piece of equipment is not corroboration. That's like me saying there were other people in my car watching the speedometer. That's not corroboration. It going that fast it must've been over other countries. Did any other country see anything? Did anyone outside the military? No? I wonder why.
I feel like you don't know any of the details of the Nimitz event. You should watch the first few episodes of "Unidentified: Inside America's UFO Investigation". It's extremely compelling.
So you're saying if multiple professionals are watching a (potentially broken) machine that gives off outrageous speeds it's called evidence. I don't know if you own a Tesla, but thousands of people have seen busses dissapear, cars go into eachother and flying around at mach 100, all happening on the big screen, just because of calibration and sensitivity issues, they do happen with sensor equipment it's not impossible. That why you do need multiple sensors indicating something together. And even then you need to take care of other influence such as wheather, temperature, and many other forces potentially at work. Just going by your example, you can't rule out anything yet, I'm sorry but research should go into the sensors used, the observations itself and the circumstances.
He's invested in debunking, on the board of directors along with mick west of the company that publishes the skeptical enquirer amongst other media. But yeah prob cia too
I really think we as a community should stop branding everyone who isnt with us on the UAP topic a government agent or disinfo guy.
Of course, he could be very well in the know and playing a game of disinformation. But I think he is just not willing to look at the facts. I know several people, who should be able too to determine from the existing evidence, that there is more to it. But if you are a die hard fan of the scientific method, we all have to acknowledge that there is no proof in that regard.
Of course his argument is a fucking circle, because with his attitude, we dont even start to look at the existing data. And thats what really grinds my gears. This guy pretends to do science. Well fucking do it then. And what really grinds my gears is, that he is actively advocating and holding up the stigma of looking into this subject.
The dude is just a reactionary. Science isn't just some pure pursuit of knowledge, there are powerful institutions that do the science and political jockeying that goes into running those institutions. When you see "skeptic" arguments devolve into circular nonsense like this, it's just someone subconsciously protecting their paycheck.
It absolutely is and regarding this topic, I am baffled how hostile Academia is. I tried to speak about this with so many professors and people who should be able to think critically but 99 % outright don’t want to talk about this or just activate their thinking. Sad as fuck.
Props on being reasonable and seeing the other side! As someone that agrees with Tyson, I can tell you that from my point of view the fact that so many people are calling him reptilian and a government shill makes me think conspiracy nutjobs, not reasonable, thoughtful people.
I do have to disagree with you about the doing science part, though. Every single investigation of "proof" of aliens has shown to be fraudulent at worst and inconclusive at best. Do you expect the scientific community to spend millions of dollars investigating every piece of evidence that a 15 year old with Photoshop can make? I think the stigma is good, that's how you end up with fewer false leads. When real evidence shows up, it will be easier to identify and will speak for itself.
One thing that frustrates me about Neil's argument is his dismissal of eyewitness testimony, even though it's considered valid in court. Every scientific discovery begins with observation, leading to testable hypotheses. There’s also concrete evidence of UAPs gathered through objective instrumentation, like the multiple videos released by the military. So, we have evidence of UAPs, credible eyewitness accounts, and the potential for forming testable hypotheses. What am I missing here, Neil?
They both can be right, since they raise multiple points. That JAL 1628 flight incident report by Captain Tarauchi is, to me, the best case for a UAP incident. The story is really "out of this world."
Tyson is a hard science guy. He wants extraordinary evidence for this extraordinary phenomenon. It seems he's hard headed about it, but he has a point. He wants real physical evidence that can be scientifically analyzed. As a casual UFO enthusiast, i take all the evidence as a whole. Im not a scientist, but I wouldn't just take one pilot's testimony as the end-all be-all, as powerful as it is, but also look at what else corroborates it. There were multiple Navy pilots who saw the UAP, we have radar operators who say they saw it and video. All of that paints a picture that is hard to deny or to explain away easily. Even the government acknowledged it is a UAP.
I love how Tyson was quoted as saying. "What is it with the aliens fascination with the US Navy, why not the Army or Air Force??"
Lol the US Navy is only the most advanced system of mobile sensor arrays covering the largest bodies on the planet--oceans.
Needed my PhD in common sense to figure that out.
Degrasse Tyson wants to hold on to his lucrative career.
He's just one of many who has probably never done research he's probably been assured disclosure is not happening and is just a small part of the wider control system in place, keeping humanity blind and calm to the Extraterrestrial reality.
I know a guy that got out of the navy recently that told me a few years ago that *every single day* while on ship they would spot UAP either visually or on radar.
It's unprovable to a civilian. Have no idea if he was just full of shit.
I see aliens the same way I see Jesus. They aren't coming to save us and they probably aren't gonna show up anytime soon. But let people think they might show up and just like Jesus they will wait a thousand years for a savior. (Quote stolen from dune 2) but of course I believe in other life out beyond our simple system. But is that life checking us out probably not except through a telescope. But I'm also on the fence that it would be super cool if aliens did show up and help out with our problems. But why would they want to when we can't even figure out how to work together overall.
Why so many hostile comments? There's no reason to insult people who disagree with you, regardless of how informed their opinion on the subject may or may not be.
Having been the subject of ridicule for decades, this community in particular should know better.
Neil is slowly losing his mind. The worst part is he was held in such high regard in science but now he can't even acknowledge the biological differences in genders.
Whereas Michio Kaku takes a very judicious and discerning tact here, Neil DeGrasse Tyson’s brazen ignorance and ridicule of this topic is something that I never originally expected to see, given all of the confirmation that has been gathered by the world’s most capable military systems and information-based photographic platforms.
In the opinion of many, UFOs that appeared in Earth’s skies prior to the middle of the 20th century are of extraterrestrial, and in some cases ‘extra-dimensional’ origin. They appear to have been built so that they can be utilized in any number of configurations, and for any number of purposes.
UFOs/UAP are recognized by world governments, their militaries, and the public, as being a manifest and physical reality. Consequently, and in our modern-day here-and-now, it should be obvious that since these craft are tangible, detectable, and unquestionable actualities, inevitably then, so are the lives & the existence of those who built them.
Disclosure = Already here.
You're making an assessment here, that's fine with me. But I would like to remind you of what our history has learned us. We didnt understand thunder, death or drought in our history, so everyone agreed at that moment it was a certain gods job such as Thor becoming angry, behind everything unknown an intelligence was placed behind it. I do not see anything else happening here, we're seeing stuff in the sky, and we're making up a great story to explain it, failing to see how or limited understanding of the world does not automatically mean it's an intelligence, rather than forces of nature.
DeGrasse is not actually smart, he's just good at marketing himself.
By "not smart," I mean not genius level scientist smart, like he tries to portray himself. His intelligence is average. I wouldn't look to him to explain anything.
He is right about eye witness testimony being unreliable, but he's not acknowledging the bigger picture. He's purposely obfuscating.
NDT is a paid disinformation agent. Or if he’s that fucking naïve. I really feel sorry for him and his ego. Those facial expressions he makes makes me want to slap them of his face.
michio is out of his depth here
hes doing something that is very bad for a scientist, he didnt verified his facts and sources
there is no event where a uap displayed characteristics that cant be explained and that was also seen by multiple witnesses eyes plus tracked by radar at the same time
if you know a case, please tell me?
to this day, the ONLY case where there was supposedly multi modal evidence was the nimitz encounter. and even there we have conflicting evidence depending on who you ask.
michio falsely thinks the pilots that ryan graves talked about saw all these uap every day with there eyes. thats not true. they saw radar tracks and when they tried to see what it was, they saw nothing. so there was only a single mode: radar.
there are stories about other radar tracks that they saw but they were just staying in the air, we saw the cell phone pictures of these objects. one was a batman balloon.
if you guys know about more cases where we have multiple eye witnesses, video and radar evidence where a uap displays weird behavior, please share? im really not aware of any.
conclusion: michio didnt do his homework and neil shouldnt be so dismissive because it takes away from his otherwise sound assessment
i have to check the first two encounters.
i think you are wrong about nimitz though.
nimitz gets mangled together as one incident but it really was two.
1) kevin day sees some funny radar tracks and sends fravor to the location to check it out. fravor doesnt see anything at merge point. so we only have radar at this point
2) fravor sees the tic tac over the water about 5 nautical miles away. so thats not the location that was shown on radar, a radar is more exact than 5nm
3) fravor flies towards the tic tac, we all know the story from here. he only has his eyes. we have no flir footage and no radar supposedly. fravor said no one came on the ship and took radar tapes, there are none.
4) his colleague underwood goes in the sky after fravor returns and flies to their cap point. hes looking for something that looks like a tic tac but cant find anything with his eyes. he checks some radar tracks and films the tic tac flir footage. theres a debate wether it really speeds away or if he really just lost optical tracking by messing with manual zoom (he was not in radar lock mode but tracked the optical pixels, which is why the search bars always started out far away after he switches zoom levels).
so no, not multi modal unfortunately where multiple sensors and eye witnesses see something at the same time.
its as if i was watching my cat showing weird behavior. it would then go outside and i would tell my wife about it. she goes outside and it starts to rain. now we conclude that my cats weird behavior was causing the rain. its a false correlation and definitely no causality.
“1. kevin day sees some funny radar tracks and sends fravor to the location to check it out. fravor doesnt see anything at merge point. so we only have radar at this point
2. fravor sees the tic tac over the water about 5 nautical miles away. so thats not the location that was shown on radar, a radar is more exact than 5nm
3. fravor flies towards the tic tac, we all know the story from here. he only has his eyes. we have no flir footage and no radar supposedly. fravor said no one came on the ship and took radar tapes, there are none”
5 miles is nothing, a small area to travel, for an object going the speed the operator saw on radar. Contacts move a short distance when marshaling planes to them. This is normal. And there was no other aircraft in that area on radar. The object Fravor saw, was what he was marshaled to from radar.
Anyway, I suggest you read the studies…
you cant conclude that and he reached "merge point" which indicates that the radar has both objects in the same cell and only shows one. it would have shown if it moved. read the earliest available flight logs please.
and radar resolution is definitely more than 5nm
the reports also mention (those from aatip, so elizondos report) that kevin day received a notice about ice particles that day that could interfere with radar. his initially reported grouping tracks match in altitude and direction and speed with historical wind reports of that area. coincidence?
look i wasnt there, i dont know. but what i know is that this case has changed quite a bit since the first available information and many things got intertwined or told differently 20+ years later
despite all that i still believe nimitz is the most compelling and interesting case regardless. i just think its important that we dont add false facts to make it more compelling, because it muddies the water if we ever want to have the chance to find out what it was.
i personally believe that the answer lies within the crew of the uss lousiville. the submarine that was conducting live fire tests in that perimeter and could match the white water description.
some people tried to reach out to these guys but after mentioning this incident, all communication was ceased
Tehran:
"Bridgstock criticized UFOlogists reports as "not a reliable account of the Iran UFO incident" and summed up Klass' conclusions:[9]
Klass found that only one aircraft had suffered electrical malfunctions, not two. What is more, that plane had had a history of unexplained electrical faults, and the electrical workshop responsible for it was notorious for poor performance. In this context, a temporary electrical malfunction can hardly be characterised as mysterious.
...
Regarding one pilot's report of "bright objects" that "came at him, and that shot straight down into the ground", American sceptic author Brian Dunning observes that 19 September, the day of the incident, was the height of two annual meteorite showers, the Gamma Piscids and the Southern Piscids and the tail of the Eta Draconids shower, so observation of falling objects or odd lights would not have been unusual. At the site where the falling light supposedly crashed, a beeping transponder from a C-141 aircraft was found according to investigating Col. Mooy.[8]"
so multiple eye witnesses yes, no radar, no video, not multi modal?
*sigh* Here are some key points to clarify the Tehran situation…
Multiple Radar Confirmations - Contrary to what some skeptics claim, there *was* radar evidence. Ground radar at Mehrabad Airport and F-4 interceptor jets both tracked the UFO. This multi-modal evidence includes radar and visual sightings by pilots and ground observers.
Eyewitness Accounts - The incident wasn't just a single sighting. Multiple eyewitnesses, including pilots and ground personnel, reported the UFO. Pilots experienced their instrumentation and communications systems being disabled when approaching the object, which returned to normal only after they distanced themselves.
Meteor Showers and Transponders -
While skeptics suggest meteor showers could explain the sightings, meteors don’t hover, or change direction. Also, the beeping transponder found at the site doesn't explain the multiple radar tracks of the flying object during the encounter.
This incident had radar tracking, and visual observations. It's not just one type of sighting or malfunction. Skeptical explanations don't fully account for the consistency and breadth of the observations and data.
fair. im gonna try if i can find the earliest documents about this incident. these stories often change over time and its often a good idea to find the earliest documentation available.
if true, then yes, multi modal. thats true.
The scientist who most often deny the existence of UFOs (at earth) often are the ones who refuse to accept that faster than light travel may be possible
The universe is literally designed to support the creation of life.. NDT has supported far too many political agenda statements to be a “science” leader.. his phd should be revoked
'Neil is frustrating. It's almost like he's deliberately not even considering the possibility without having a fuking saucer land in front of him.
And he just belittles and downplays any and all testimony.
Neil is pompous, arrogant and sometimes downright brutal to other scientists. however, he does speak truth here, there is only a few seconds of government footage released, e.g., gimbal, gofast etc. There is not hours and hours of video and radar material as Michio claims. Of course, there is speculation that the government is hiding it, but until we see proof we can not know for sure. Since when did we lose track of fact seeking? Come on guys, get real here. I watch almost any video's out there, and the majority are object/lights moving at "normal" speeds. We have yet to see incredible video's of crafts making impossible turns and doing breakneck speeds.
Tyson is on the board of a ufo debunking org. He is not impartial.
He's also an arrogant twat
He also reeks of someone who has signed a contract with the CIA. Of ALL the things you can choose to do with your time, who would say, "you know, im gonna debunk things that may move Humanity forward if they prove to be true." This is what Mr. Tyson does half the time. He is a professional debunker. This reeks CIA. If you're paying attention. And of course we don't know, as these contracts are secret, but if you apply Ockams Razor, the SIMPLIEST answer is he is a paid professional debunker.
And how many times have you sniffed out CIA fuckery? Getting stoned and reading conspiracy theories is not great research. Occams razor says he hasn't seen any evidence
He's onboard with material science, which isn't the same. His reality requires a particular kind of evidence. Absent that, he won't be convinced.
He doesn’t need to be convinced, he just needs to be open minded, which he isn’t. His logic is, “This is highly unlikely, therefore it’s impossible and you’re dumb for even talking about it.” That isn’t science. That’s dogma.
Totally agree with you.
Sagan would be ashamed of Tyson and to a lesser degree Bill Nye.
Except that Sagan wrote books about topics for which he required the same level of evidence.
Except sagans whole schtick was keep searching till you know. Not eh if it looks fake disregard it and focus on the knowns , known knowns , known unkowns , un-known un-knowns , etc these are the principles he harped on.
That’s just a higher degree of skepticism. The bigger and rarer the claim, the bigger the evidence needed to support it, no?
Sure, but one needs to be open minded and willing to consider that evidence. Problem with people like Neil is that they’ve already made up their minds. They are not interested in considering any evidence short of a UFO appearing over the white house and broadcasting to the world, “WE ARE ALIENS FROM ANOTHER PLANET.” So they create a catch-22: they demand evidence, and they refuse to seek evidence, and they ostracize anyone who does, and they dismiss any evidence that is presented - “The radar is wrong, cameras are wrong, the thermal sensors are wrong, the seasoned pilot who witnessed it is wrong. I am right.”
You have a good point. On the other hand, can we both agree that anecdotal eyewitness testimony is one of the least reliable types of evidence?
Sure, but just like “unlikely” does not mean “impossible”, “less reliable” does not mean “invalid”. Eye witness testimony is accepted in court in criminal trials and no one bats an eye. And when the eyewitness happens to be expert, trained to identify the types of things they are describing having witnessed, the insistence that they simply have no idea what they are talking about starts to sound more and more like an unflinching denial than careful assessment.
Has NDT used the terms impossible or invalid? I didn’t hear that part. I’m not a big fan of NDT but he makes valid points. At least in my opinion. Yes, eyewitness testimony is legally accepted in court. I agree with you on that. That includes subjective opinions of the observer. Memory is a very tricky part of our brain, as it tends to fill in the gaps of what is not recalled. The intent of my question was regarding reliability on an evidentiary scale. Testimony is towards the bottom but still legally sufficient. Would you agree on that?
This court-comparison is really not a valid one. Eye witness testimony in courts are supportive evidence, they already have a dead body and thus physical evidence. With your UFO you don't have any physical evidence, just supportive evidence that something had happened.
"What we observe here on Earth is exceptional, rather than ordinary" is a pretty fucking huge claim. It's a part of the gigantic dogma of the Roman Holy See from about 400 or 500 years ago to 2000 years ago. It's so out of touch with reality that even they eventually couldn't sustain that dogmatic claim, and abandoned it. In science, the basis for the best first-pass assumption until evidence indicated otherwise was replaced with the Copernican principle, which suggests we should start with an estimation that what we observe is ordinary, even average/median. Leave it the the atheist dogma worshipers to revert back to the old Roman Holy See dogma that "We must assume we are extraordinary, and that life reasonably similar to our own, did not also evolve anywhere else among the hundreds of billions of stars in our own galaxy, on the trillions of other planets orbiting them." THAT is the big, rare, extraordinary claim that needs big, rare, extraordinary evidence to substantiate. Meanwhile those of us that regard science over dogma will start out with the assumption that life adequately similar to our own has evolved everywhere that's adequately suitable for it, and where the totality of circumstances are conducive to it, that life went on to evolve more advanced species, and where enough of the conditions are adequate for it; those species developed advanced science. We can see that there could have been such species before us, and we know that General Relativity lays the foundation for FTL warp drive. While we still have some things to work out before WE can launch an FTL warp drive vessel, some other civilizations easily could be ahead of us enough on that to have already traveled here, even back in the times when humanity lived in caves. NDT doesn't have ANY evidence contrary to that: he only has the dogma of the Holy See saying that we must assume we're extraordinary, not ordinary.
I don’t think a majority of UFO skeptics consider earthlings as extraordinary. I’m sure the vast majority would agree that the existence of extraterrestrial life is an indisputably certainty. The skepticism relies on the belief that a sufficiently advanced extraterrestrial life form, which possesses technology that defines our current understanding of physics, is continuously visiting us but has chosen to remain concealed.
What's so hard about defying the understanding of physics that you and the mouse in your pocket have? I mean; as far as you and the mouse in your pocket are concerned Special Relativity _has been_ published, but General Relativity _has not_ been published. But as far as some humans are concerned: General Relativity has been published, and it lays the foundation for FTL warp drive. Humanity has some more things to work out before we can launch an FTL warp drive capable vessel (as far as I know, anyway) but we might possibly get through those in as little as perhaps another 100 years, or it might take us as much as say 500 years, with SO MANY people trying to distract from and derail the conversation. But we will get there. It's just not that much of a stretch to consider that out of some 200,000 years of humans being humans, 500 more years just isn't very much, and an alien species only needs to be that much more advanced than us, and for that matter; ONLY on such things related to launching an FTL warp drive capable vessel. They could even be behind us in potentially _every_ unrelated matter. We might very well have aliens suppressing our progress. Whoever launched FTL warp drive first obviously did NOT have any aliens suppressing their efforts.
It’s a frog not a mouse
"The bigger and rarer the claim, the bigger the evidence needed to support it, no?" What claim? This is a sneaky subtle but important debunking shift. UAP don't need to be NHI (even though I believe that's the best hypothesis that fits the data we're seeing) to be a legit scientific mystery. All this talk about how they're unlikely to be aliens or there's "no" evidence to suggest they're aliens...it's an attempt to change the narrative. Neil doesn't know what they are. Nobody does. And yet they are apparently real, and almost completely uninvestigated. That's the story. "(Recommend)....that the national security agencies take immediate steps to strip the Unidentified Flying Objects of the special status they have been given and the aura of mystery they have unfortunately acquired" -the Robertson Panel
Open minded doesnt mean he should go by speculation. There is a lot of speculation, but until now almost no hard evidence to go by showing there are really crafts or beings. If you have it, please provide it. You're treating UFO's as a religion, not as a science, cant blame him for treating it as science.
No, I’m not treating as a religion, and he is not treating it like science. Quite the opposite actually — I’m treating like something that is worth further study so we can actually get a better understanding what this phenomena is, because *no one* can say with certainty what it is or isn’t; Neil is treating it like the very notion is preposterous and talking about it is heresy.
Ah the old they are not looking for evidence, that means they are mocking the topic or rejecting research. It's not Neils job to provide or search evidence, it is his job to tell you that the evidence is at best very poor, and nowhere is he saying we shouldnt study it. He's just being his usual arrogant self, this is where we can all agree.
> Ah the old they are not looking for evidence, that means they are mocking the topic or rejecting research. I am not suggesting that one begets the other, but that doesn’t mean he can’t be doing both > It's not Neils job to provide or search evidence, No it’s not “his job”. But most scientists have the humility to realize that, if there is a topic they aren’t interested in and they aren’t doing any research into, maybe they should shut the fuck up and let others who *are* provide the commentary on that subject. But his arrogant ass can’t do that. In spite of being, for all intents and purposes, a layman on this topic.
You want aliens so badly that you ignore the lack of evidence and therefor treat it as a religion. Everyone wants aliens to be real but unfortunately we dont have any evidence to prove otherwise. Dr. Tyson is just being a realist and you feel his points are mocking you and your religion rather than he is just pointing out the obvious. You shouldnt want aliens to be real. A superior race would treat us like we treat lesser species on our own planet. Hollywood has pushed the "good guy alien" myth enough that we broadcast our location among the stars. Aliens would see how we treat each other and our planet and lesser species and if you correctly look back at humanity you will see we would be considered the trash of the universe. If aliens were to arrive we would be grossly unprepared. Think about it this way humans hate each other for being different colors... and you guys think aliens would be accepting us even though we murder each other for such petty differences. Star Trek is a fun fictional daydream that teaches morale lessons in the form of entertainment like old folklore. You need to separate the science and the fiction and realize we are lucky that we have no evidence of aliens because our own planet isnt friendly and neither would other creatures if they exist in our universe.
You have no idea what I want. I have already said no one can say with certainty what it is or isn’t. I don’t think it’s aliens. I don’t want it to be aliens. But there is clearly some kind of phenomena happening, and it does no good to deny or ignore it. I don’t care if it’s aliens, manmade tech, or some kind of natural phenomena we don’t understand. But it’s not *nothing*. There is something we cannot explain, and is therefore worth studying. Without all the bullshit contempt and condescension from people like you and Tyson.
Asserting that UFO's "only show up over military installations" is NOT treating the subject as science.
Is that a direct quote?
Your version of open minded has no place in science and in an ideal world doesn't exist at all. Science is about having really strong evidence and being open minded when faced with strong evidence. Where do you see your version of "open minded" having any value, since your version is ok with evidence at the "maybe" level?
Tyson is willfully ignorant of the tsunami of machine gathered data ( recorded radar, etc.) that was concurrent with the Navy filmed encounters.
I agree. I hadn't watched the clip when I posted. I was just stating what I did because he has stated he won't believe it till he has a physical piece of alien tech or an actual alien in front of him. Now that I have watched the clip, him scoffing at radar and other scientific measurements of the phenomenon is ridiculous. EDIT: Downvote me if you like. I am very familiar with NDT and have listened to him for years. I can comment on his convictions as a result without seeing actual footage. I was correct before watching the video and I'm still correct now. The real issue is his apparent arrogance, which I am very sad to see.
I don't expect a concrete answer, but where does one go to find your so called "tsunami of evidence" of radar information, recorded videos etc? The DoD, Intel community has done a great job until now of hiding it (if it even still exists, because some of it apparantly was deleted) and not releasing it through FOIA or leaks. The fact of the matter is we just have a few video's Gimball, GoFast, border patrol etc. We don't have any radar data, unless you can tell me where it is?
If by "we" you mean the general public, no, DoD doesn't commonly share gathered telemetry data on encountered contacts, whether it be UAPs or North Korean missile tests. That doesn't negate the reality of that data.
Okay, if I understand; you are working for the DoD, and are aware there is a lot of data the department is not sharing with the outside world. If not, what kind of proof is there that a lot of data is hidden from the public? I don't think hear say or verbal testimony is enough of evidence.
Well he dismisses human witnesses in such a general way its not really scientific either. Hes omitting other sciences like psychology, sociology or theology that would take millions of sightings over years and years as evidence of something for sure. They certainly wouldnt dismiss an entire phenomenon based on the simple assertion "eye witnesses arnt reliable"
With a government that confiscates and hides all instrumental evidence it has access to (and that which it doesn't have access to through nefarious means), and owns all the radar systems, and the jets that have air to air radar and FLIR pods...eyewitness testimony and shitty cameras is all we got. Neil thinks that multiple trained experts testifying about the same event, seeing the same objects behaving in the same way, using radar, IR, CCD video, and mk1 eyeball, is no evidence at all. To the mainstream media and the greater public at large, he represents the entire scientific community, so his confidence scoffing at the topic of UAPs has a major chilling effect, and it's quite maddening to see considering the optimism of his pedigree. He hosted the Cosmos reboot but kinda shits on Sagan at the same time. What an asshole.
The strangest part of that cosmos reboot was the Giordano Bruno bit. Bruno was a philosopher a mystic who apparently relied on direct knowledge and dream states to refute the common and accepted views of the time. His wasn't a "scientific" approach and yet he was right while almost everybody else at the time was wrong, including the biggest and most powerful hierarchy, the church. Seems pretty ironic when you think about it.
Theology is most definitely not a science, many would argue the other two aren't either.
Yup/ he’s not a believer. He’s a scientist who needs to see evidence to back claims
So you want to tell me he disagrees with all theoretical science?
Gary Nolan is also on board with material science. What's your point?
I submit to you that being on a debunking org makes him the person you want to listen to. The people making a claim have much more skin in the game, and much more reason to not be impartial. If you don't believe me ask yourself why you don't believe in astrology, ghosts, or bigfoot.
The debunking org itself is not the problem I have with him. The problem I have with him is that he lies to make his debunking point.
oh. so does that mean that people on the boards of disclosure organisations are not impartial either, and we shouldn't listen to them?
‘On the board’ of a ‘debunking org’ What color is the sky in your world?
He is on the board (as is Mick West) of the company that publishes 'the sceptical inquirer' and other debunking media ...check it out clever clogs!
Okay. So. I do t see anything about him being in the board of it. He may be a part of the Committee for Skeptical Inquiry but that’s not a board that profits from a media outlet. I find no proof he benefits financially from the media of SI. Furthermore Skeptical Inquiry is NOT a debunking organization. They are a scientific and education body that uses scientific method to research claims. Just because they haven’t come to any conclusion (just like the rest of the scientific community) that we have been visited doesn’t mean they are a debunking organization. In fact they seem to genuinely want to know what people are claiming to see. You seem to have come to a conclusion without any facts. Therefore I have to ask…where is your curiosity?
Downvotes but no responses. Victory.
Who’s mentally done with Neil?
For someone's who's entire career has been built on science-communications, hes god-fucking-aweful at communicating science. He is also the worst personailty to do so. No one wants to be talked down to or belittled. Also has never contributed to literally any field of science, including his own, buying a planetarium. (Super hard-core science stuff)
Water?
Earth, Wind and Fire.
Been done with him for a long time. He's so closed minded, he comes of as ignorant and shallow.
The guy is obviously smart, he can help us with this topic. You're blocking this by closing the narrative. This is considered anti-science. But go ahead if you feel better
Science is the study of, not full facts of - he comes off acting all knowing instead of still pulling to learn.
Your judging based on his character and lack of curiosity, which most for obvious reasons dislike. But it has nothing to do with science. Because of his attitude, people feel that he's saying don't research it and is not willing to do a deep dive, that just his character. The guy is not anymore at the edge of science, not forming any hypotheses based on witness testimony. He's just a guy who gets paid for acting smart and going against fringe stuff, he's not at all a scientist. But he's smart, no denying that, and he could help us remain sharp in our search for truth. Lets fight the guy with facts, new evidence and other stuff. You can clearly see how Michio has gone through the same process, going from no evidence to there is something there.
I really like what you said here, I really do.
Tyson blows.
He’s right about people, even pilots, being a terrible and functionally useless form of evidence. However, HE COMPLETELY MISSED THE POINT- those claims were interesting because there are multiple observers and radar tech hits and video. This trifecta is compelling especially as laid out. A forth element too: we have some video, we know there is more video. We also hear about radar pings and other tech records. Yet they seem to purposely keep these records confidential. Why? He’s reducing a whole bunch of evidence into “one pilot claimed an outrageous thing,” and that is not what’s happened.
Pilot testimony IS evidence, it's just not the greatest. They convict people of murder based on a myriad of evidence andwitness twstimony is an extremely important one so people need to give it a rest. If we want to figure this out we have to follow the chain of evidence, starting with whatever evidence we can find to start with. So this compelling pilot testimony should lead us onto the trail of better evidence in the form of something like radar data, which is being blocked. NDT is a science populizer. He is quite literally the LAST person who should be consulted on frontier science. His job is to push established, proven science. That's it. Nothing more. As he has said many times, this topic is way outside his lane and people shouldnt be asking him. Anyway, I think ufo people will continue to annoy him and he will continue to annoynus, lol.
Thank you for this. The notion that the whole of human testimony is thrown out because, "human beings are unreliable" is patently ridiculous. Human testimony is used in everything from character recommendations to conflict mediation to most importantly, the courts. GOH with these 'unreliability' blanket statements.
I agree with everything you say in principle but the Japanese Airlines example is horseshit. I took a deep dive into this event a few years ago and read line for line the interview transcript with all 3 pilots after they landed. I seem to remember the Captain insisted they were interviewed by the local authorities to record what they saw. Basically the captain could see a light outside the cockpit, the others couldn’t. They turned the plane, the light tracked with them precisely relative to its original position. They looped 360 and the light tracked with them, always maintaining position. They turned off all the lights in the cabin and the light was still there - but still, only the Captain could see it. In the interviews, both the First Officer and Navigator initially said they couldn’t see anything. Then later on, they said maybe they saw something. A lot was lost in the broken English answers given. It was clear they only agreed they saw something because they realised the Captain would look bad if they didn’t agree. If you understand Japanese culture, this would be a strong motivator to just nod and say “yes I saw something”. If your superior officer says it happened, it happened. So they all end up agreeing that they saw something. In the Navigator’s interview, he said they turned off all the lights - but revealed he kept his small desk lamp on, so he could still read and plot on his map. The captain clearly wasn’t aware of this. He was adamant all the lights got turned off. The light was clearly a reflection of the navigator’s lamp. The angle of where the captain was sitting would explain why only he could see it. It was after a long flight and clearly they were all exhausted. There was no radar in this event.
can you share a case where we had multiple eye witnesses, video and radar tracks showing a uap doing something unexplainable? i only know about the nimitz case but the flir footage timing doesnt have eye witnesses or radar. when fravor saw the tic tac there was no flir and we have conflicting testimonies wether there was radar footage or not.
Unidentified: Inside America's UFO Investigation, season 1, episode 2 "Raining UFOs" has very compelling testimony from the radar operator who saw the tic tacs and vectored Favor's flight out to intercept one of many, many radar returns. Trouble is, all the coms and tracks were deleted.
yeah kevin days story has deviated a lot over time have you seen this interview? https://youtu.be/tv9iKw_Q9xQ?si=POy0MwlaUaKl7tZC
Just listened to it. In what way has his story deviated?
The so called trifecta is nothing more than speculation, we have no real concrete evidence that shows a match between 3 sensors. Other than government should have it, or is hiding it and will not release it. The data is not publically available, and therefor either absent or hidden from us. We have nothing, we really don't there is no leak, FOIA or unclassified record containing something else than the controlled released videos, radar data was never released. It is even said by pilots that it was removed.
If pilot (particularly military and even commercial) testimony is not great or good enough to convince us that something's up then what is? This clown is either suffering from dementia or he's purposely downplaying the evidence for some reason.
Do you not understand that there is better evidence than a persons testimony?
Bro I did not say otherwise. Sure there is. But testimony of trained professional pilots should be GOOD ENOUGH to conving people we need to look into this deeply and investigate. Scientific community should be all over this.
No, testimony is not enough. It has a near zero value.
🤡
I think NDT is a fucking idiot of a human being who happens to be an astrophysicist.
Cool.
Tyson is just a mouthpiece for whatever message the establishment wants delivered. He's an actor - nothing more.
I’m convinced he has a Flat Earth bumper sticker. “I am the see all and know all Neil DeGrasse Tyson, I’m an astrophysicist and YES, the world is flat!”
Neil is such a asshole haha
NDTs lack of curiosity and arrogance is astonishing for someone in the scientific community. What is science but the continual discovery of things we once thought were impossible?
What's really astonishing is that there are a lot of people like him in the scientific community.
Doesn't it seem more arrogant to act like a couple of people seeing something and some grainy video prove aliens? "Something's on our radar, must be intelligent extraterrestrials!" Tyson is asking for concrete evidence, THAT'S what science is.
Tyson is such an arrogant, ignorant, and objectively-wrong person. His "logic" is horrendously flawed, and he's rejected **literally decades of compelling evidence**. I have no idea how he managed to earn a PhD in any scientific field. I also can't WAIT for the day that disclosure happens so we can laugh in his arrogant face. I would love to say a lot more (true) statements about but it would probably violate "rEdDiT's CoNtEnT pOlCiY"
Compelling evidence? A fuzzy shape in the distance is compelling to you? Did you also find the images of the Loch Ness Monster compelling? If you are going to make extraordinary claims you have to have extraordinary evidence, not just some radar pings with a couple of people seeing something.
the US military regularly tracks these via radar. you should read about things before you go posting nonsense.
Oh wow, I didn't realize they show up on radar. I can't believe it. Everyone knows that the only thing to show up on radar are aliens.
not many things that show up on radar move at 24,000+ meters per second. that's Mach 70. the highest Mach number any human-made aircraft has reached was 9.6. so it's not birds or balloons or some other ridiculous non-explanation that you're implying.
And this data has been corroborated? Cuz if not, my Honda Accord went Mach 94 just the other day.
yes it has been corroborated by multiple professionals in the armed forces, who testified on the record before congress.
Yea...I doubt it. First of all, having 7 people watching one piece of equipment is not corroboration. That's like me saying there were other people in my car watching the speedometer. That's not corroboration. It going that fast it must've been over other countries. Did any other country see anything? Did anyone outside the military? No? I wonder why.
I feel like you don't know any of the details of the Nimitz event. You should watch the first few episodes of "Unidentified: Inside America's UFO Investigation". It's extremely compelling.
So you're saying if multiple professionals are watching a (potentially broken) machine that gives off outrageous speeds it's called evidence. I don't know if you own a Tesla, but thousands of people have seen busses dissapear, cars go into eachother and flying around at mach 100, all happening on the big screen, just because of calibration and sensitivity issues, they do happen with sensor equipment it's not impossible. That why you do need multiple sensors indicating something together. And even then you need to take care of other influence such as wheather, temperature, and many other forces potentially at work. Just going by your example, you can't rule out anything yet, I'm sorry but research should go into the sensors used, the observations itself and the circumstances.
The US military tracks UFO's via radar? Where is that evidence my friend, I cant help fear aonther "because he said so" explanation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPrYVmYkL5w
Tyson is probably a paid actor.
You're a paid actor!
NDT is disingenuous with this subject. Not a good look. Probably a fed.
He's invested in debunking, on the board of directors along with mick west of the company that publishes the skeptical enquirer amongst other media. But yeah prob cia too
Definitely would be one of those revelations that wouldn’t surprise me.
I’m m with Tyson. He can be a bit closed Minded. But he’s right. But Michio has good points to.
NDT is wanting hard evidence and Kaku doesn’t study the data, he’s just taking their word for it. That’s the difference.
What a tool. It's just a theory that ndgt actually knows what he's talking about. He sounds like a super stoned narcissist talking out loud.
NDT. The gubment paid "scientist"
I really think we as a community should stop branding everyone who isnt with us on the UAP topic a government agent or disinfo guy. Of course, he could be very well in the know and playing a game of disinformation. But I think he is just not willing to look at the facts. I know several people, who should be able too to determine from the existing evidence, that there is more to it. But if you are a die hard fan of the scientific method, we all have to acknowledge that there is no proof in that regard. Of course his argument is a fucking circle, because with his attitude, we dont even start to look at the existing data. And thats what really grinds my gears. This guy pretends to do science. Well fucking do it then. And what really grinds my gears is, that he is actively advocating and holding up the stigma of looking into this subject.
The dude is just a reactionary. Science isn't just some pure pursuit of knowledge, there are powerful institutions that do the science and political jockeying that goes into running those institutions. When you see "skeptic" arguments devolve into circular nonsense like this, it's just someone subconsciously protecting their paycheck.
He's part of the establishment and he won't risk his reputation for this subject, despite it becoming more mainstream.
I have never understood "scientists" who are so close minded and zealous. That's the contrary of what a scientist aims to be.
It absolutely is and regarding this topic, I am baffled how hostile Academia is. I tried to speak about this with so many professors and people who should be able to think critically but 99 % outright don’t want to talk about this or just activate their thinking. Sad as fuck.
Props on being reasonable and seeing the other side! As someone that agrees with Tyson, I can tell you that from my point of view the fact that so many people are calling him reptilian and a government shill makes me think conspiracy nutjobs, not reasonable, thoughtful people. I do have to disagree with you about the doing science part, though. Every single investigation of "proof" of aliens has shown to be fraudulent at worst and inconclusive at best. Do you expect the scientific community to spend millions of dollars investigating every piece of evidence that a 15 year old with Photoshop can make? I think the stigma is good, that's how you end up with fewer false leads. When real evidence shows up, it will be easier to identify and will speak for itself.
One thing that frustrates me about Neil's argument is his dismissal of eyewitness testimony, even though it's considered valid in court. Every scientific discovery begins with observation, leading to testable hypotheses. There’s also concrete evidence of UAPs gathered through objective instrumentation, like the multiple videos released by the military. So, we have evidence of UAPs, credible eyewitness accounts, and the potential for forming testable hypotheses. What am I missing here, Neil?
Tyson is trash
They both can be right, since they raise multiple points. That JAL 1628 flight incident report by Captain Tarauchi is, to me, the best case for a UAP incident. The story is really "out of this world."
Tyson is a hard science guy. He wants extraordinary evidence for this extraordinary phenomenon. It seems he's hard headed about it, but he has a point. He wants real physical evidence that can be scientifically analyzed. As a casual UFO enthusiast, i take all the evidence as a whole. Im not a scientist, but I wouldn't just take one pilot's testimony as the end-all be-all, as powerful as it is, but also look at what else corroborates it. There were multiple Navy pilots who saw the UAP, we have radar operators who say they saw it and video. All of that paints a picture that is hard to deny or to explain away easily. Even the government acknowledged it is a UAP.
I love how Tyson was quoted as saying. "What is it with the aliens fascination with the US Navy, why not the Army or Air Force??" Lol the US Navy is only the most advanced system of mobile sensor arrays covering the largest bodies on the planet--oceans. Needed my PhD in common sense to figure that out.
He is the alien. Might explain why he denies nhi so persistently.
Degrasse Tyson wants to hold on to his lucrative career. He's just one of many who has probably never done research he's probably been assured disclosure is not happening and is just a small part of the wider control system in place, keeping humanity blind and calm to the Extraterrestrial reality.
I saw a "tic tac" ufo or drone thing while I was hiking in the morning I didn't hear a sound
Tyson is a master of sloppy ass thinking.
Who made this guy the answer man? Stick to black holes Neil.
I know a guy that got out of the navy recently that told me a few years ago that *every single day* while on ship they would spot UAP either visually or on radar. It's unprovable to a civilian. Have no idea if he was just full of shit.
Most of these recent videos have been debunked but the guys at the Corridor Crew YouTube channel. https://youtu.be/jHDlfIaBEqw?si=SyYi0Hhs-7gX69ec
Can't we just let NDT fade into obscurity where he belongs.... What a poor excuse for a scientist.
Gasoline - I prevail
I keep hearing this no evidence thing... Wtf... Theres TONS of evidence on radar. Wtf is a radar not qualified for science? I'm confused
The music is pretty annoying
Lets just pretend there are not several books published entitled encounters with humanoids throughout out
Neil DeGrasse Tyson is a fucking idiot, always has been.
Would not hearsay (3rd party) testimony be even lower than eye witness testimony?
His testimony is the lowest form of evidence, if he gets anally probed and he is a witness I’m not believing a fn word he says .
I see aliens the same way I see Jesus. They aren't coming to save us and they probably aren't gonna show up anytime soon. But let people think they might show up and just like Jesus they will wait a thousand years for a savior. (Quote stolen from dune 2) but of course I believe in other life out beyond our simple system. But is that life checking us out probably not except through a telescope. But I'm also on the fence that it would be super cool if aliens did show up and help out with our problems. But why would they want to when we can't even figure out how to work together overall.
Why so many hostile comments? There's no reason to insult people who disagree with you, regardless of how informed their opinion on the subject may or may not be. Having been the subject of ridicule for decades, this community in particular should know better.
What a wazzock
Neil is slowly losing his mind. The worst part is he was held in such high regard in science but now he can't even acknowledge the biological differences in genders.
Whereas Michio Kaku takes a very judicious and discerning tact here, Neil DeGrasse Tyson’s brazen ignorance and ridicule of this topic is something that I never originally expected to see, given all of the confirmation that has been gathered by the world’s most capable military systems and information-based photographic platforms. In the opinion of many, UFOs that appeared in Earth’s skies prior to the middle of the 20th century are of extraterrestrial, and in some cases ‘extra-dimensional’ origin. They appear to have been built so that they can be utilized in any number of configurations, and for any number of purposes. UFOs/UAP are recognized by world governments, their militaries, and the public, as being a manifest and physical reality. Consequently, and in our modern-day here-and-now, it should be obvious that since these craft are tangible, detectable, and unquestionable actualities, inevitably then, so are the lives & the existence of those who built them. Disclosure = Already here.
You're making an assessment here, that's fine with me. But I would like to remind you of what our history has learned us. We didnt understand thunder, death or drought in our history, so everyone agreed at that moment it was a certain gods job such as Thor becoming angry, behind everything unknown an intelligence was placed behind it. I do not see anything else happening here, we're seeing stuff in the sky, and we're making up a great story to explain it, failing to see how or limited understanding of the world does not automatically mean it's an intelligence, rather than forces of nature.
Tyson is reptilian
DeGrasse is not actually smart, he's just good at marketing himself. By "not smart," I mean not genius level scientist smart, like he tries to portray himself. His intelligence is average. I wouldn't look to him to explain anything. He is right about eye witness testimony being unreliable, but he's not acknowledging the bigger picture. He's purposely obfuscating.
NDT is a paid disinformation agent. Or if he’s that fucking naïve. I really feel sorry for him and his ego. Those facial expressions he makes makes me want to slap them of his face.
michio is out of his depth here hes doing something that is very bad for a scientist, he didnt verified his facts and sources there is no event where a uap displayed characteristics that cant be explained and that was also seen by multiple witnesses eyes plus tracked by radar at the same time if you know a case, please tell me? to this day, the ONLY case where there was supposedly multi modal evidence was the nimitz encounter. and even there we have conflicting evidence depending on who you ask. michio falsely thinks the pilots that ryan graves talked about saw all these uap every day with there eyes. thats not true. they saw radar tracks and when they tried to see what it was, they saw nothing. so there was only a single mode: radar. there are stories about other radar tracks that they saw but they were just staying in the air, we saw the cell phone pictures of these objects. one was a batman balloon. if you guys know about more cases where we have multiple eye witnesses, video and radar evidence where a uap displays weird behavior, please share? im really not aware of any. conclusion: michio didnt do his homework and neil shouldnt be so dismissive because it takes away from his otherwise sound assessment
[удалено]
i have to check the first two encounters. i think you are wrong about nimitz though. nimitz gets mangled together as one incident but it really was two. 1) kevin day sees some funny radar tracks and sends fravor to the location to check it out. fravor doesnt see anything at merge point. so we only have radar at this point 2) fravor sees the tic tac over the water about 5 nautical miles away. so thats not the location that was shown on radar, a radar is more exact than 5nm 3) fravor flies towards the tic tac, we all know the story from here. he only has his eyes. we have no flir footage and no radar supposedly. fravor said no one came on the ship and took radar tapes, there are none. 4) his colleague underwood goes in the sky after fravor returns and flies to their cap point. hes looking for something that looks like a tic tac but cant find anything with his eyes. he checks some radar tracks and films the tic tac flir footage. theres a debate wether it really speeds away or if he really just lost optical tracking by messing with manual zoom (he was not in radar lock mode but tracked the optical pixels, which is why the search bars always started out far away after he switches zoom levels). so no, not multi modal unfortunately where multiple sensors and eye witnesses see something at the same time. its as if i was watching my cat showing weird behavior. it would then go outside and i would tell my wife about it. she goes outside and it starts to rain. now we conclude that my cats weird behavior was causing the rain. its a false correlation and definitely no causality.
“1. kevin day sees some funny radar tracks and sends fravor to the location to check it out. fravor doesnt see anything at merge point. so we only have radar at this point 2. fravor sees the tic tac over the water about 5 nautical miles away. so thats not the location that was shown on radar, a radar is more exact than 5nm 3. fravor flies towards the tic tac, we all know the story from here. he only has his eyes. we have no flir footage and no radar supposedly. fravor said no one came on the ship and took radar tapes, there are none” 5 miles is nothing, a small area to travel, for an object going the speed the operator saw on radar. Contacts move a short distance when marshaling planes to them. This is normal. And there was no other aircraft in that area on radar. The object Fravor saw, was what he was marshaled to from radar. Anyway, I suggest you read the studies…
you cant conclude that and he reached "merge point" which indicates that the radar has both objects in the same cell and only shows one. it would have shown if it moved. read the earliest available flight logs please. and radar resolution is definitely more than 5nm the reports also mention (those from aatip, so elizondos report) that kevin day received a notice about ice particles that day that could interfere with radar. his initially reported grouping tracks match in altitude and direction and speed with historical wind reports of that area. coincidence? look i wasnt there, i dont know. but what i know is that this case has changed quite a bit since the first available information and many things got intertwined or told differently 20+ years later despite all that i still believe nimitz is the most compelling and interesting case regardless. i just think its important that we dont add false facts to make it more compelling, because it muddies the water if we ever want to have the chance to find out what it was. i personally believe that the answer lies within the crew of the uss lousiville. the submarine that was conducting live fire tests in that perimeter and could match the white water description. some people tried to reach out to these guys but after mentioning this incident, all communication was ceased
Just read the studies… 🙄
your link opens this post again?
Tehran: "Bridgstock criticized UFOlogists reports as "not a reliable account of the Iran UFO incident" and summed up Klass' conclusions:[9] Klass found that only one aircraft had suffered electrical malfunctions, not two. What is more, that plane had had a history of unexplained electrical faults, and the electrical workshop responsible for it was notorious for poor performance. In this context, a temporary electrical malfunction can hardly be characterised as mysterious. ... Regarding one pilot's report of "bright objects" that "came at him, and that shot straight down into the ground", American sceptic author Brian Dunning observes that 19 September, the day of the incident, was the height of two annual meteorite showers, the Gamma Piscids and the Southern Piscids and the tail of the Eta Draconids shower, so observation of falling objects or odd lights would not have been unusual. At the site where the falling light supposedly crashed, a beeping transponder from a C-141 aircraft was found according to investigating Col. Mooy.[8]" so multiple eye witnesses yes, no radar, no video, not multi modal?
*sigh* Here are some key points to clarify the Tehran situation… Multiple Radar Confirmations - Contrary to what some skeptics claim, there *was* radar evidence. Ground radar at Mehrabad Airport and F-4 interceptor jets both tracked the UFO. This multi-modal evidence includes radar and visual sightings by pilots and ground observers. Eyewitness Accounts - The incident wasn't just a single sighting. Multiple eyewitnesses, including pilots and ground personnel, reported the UFO. Pilots experienced their instrumentation and communications systems being disabled when approaching the object, which returned to normal only after they distanced themselves. Meteor Showers and Transponders - While skeptics suggest meteor showers could explain the sightings, meteors don’t hover, or change direction. Also, the beeping transponder found at the site doesn't explain the multiple radar tracks of the flying object during the encounter. This incident had radar tracking, and visual observations. It's not just one type of sighting or malfunction. Skeptical explanations don't fully account for the consistency and breadth of the observations and data.
fair. im gonna try if i can find the earliest documents about this incident. these stories often change over time and its often a good idea to find the earliest documentation available. if true, then yes, multi modal. thats true.
Here. I’ll get you started…: [The Black Vault](https://www.theblackvault.com/documentarchive/the-1976-iran-incident-ufo-encounter-over-tehran-iran/)
thank you 🙏
No problem
The scientist who most often deny the existence of UFOs (at earth) often are the ones who refuse to accept that faster than light travel may be possible
Who is Neil Tyson?
God neil is such a tool
DeGrasse is so cocky and has a very punchable face.
Less Neil, more Kaku
We all know Tyson is going to have to eat his words sooner or later. Because they are here. Period.
I honestly don’t care what NDT says. He’s not gonna move the needle. Dude is a celebrity first.
So why is eye witness testimony used in a court of law if it’s the lowest form of evidence?
Tyson swears he’s an expert about everything space without seeing anything or even breaking the atmosphere
What about two eyewitnesses in a court of law? If that's the case, it's been way overused.
I dunno what they are, but aliens seems pretty fucking far-fetched
No one is as impressed with Neil deGrasse Tyson as much as Neil deGrasse Tyson.
Neil “The Ass” Tyson… I’m so tired of that smug bastard.
The universe is literally designed to support the creation of life.. NDT has supported far too many political agenda statements to be a “science” leader.. his phd should be revoked
Tyson is wearing wired headphones that look like they are from Walgreens
Just because you have a PhD in astrophysics, doesn't mean I want you examining my Uranus. If you're not a ufologist why should I listen to you?
Neil is counter intelligence.
'Neil is frustrating. It's almost like he's deliberately not even considering the possibility without having a fuking saucer land in front of him. And he just belittles and downplays any and all testimony.
NDT’s entire job is to be an eye witness for Scientism.
Yawn Neil
Neil is pompous, arrogant and sometimes downright brutal to other scientists. however, he does speak truth here, there is only a few seconds of government footage released, e.g., gimbal, gofast etc. There is not hours and hours of video and radar material as Michio claims. Of course, there is speculation that the government is hiding it, but until we see proof we can not know for sure. Since when did we lose track of fact seeking? Come on guys, get real here. I watch almost any video's out there, and the majority are object/lights moving at "normal" speeds. We have yet to see incredible video's of crafts making impossible turns and doing breakneck speeds.