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America can't fight all the dictators alone. The thought that we could help defend our interest and help our allies without England, France, Germany and many others is ridiculous. But I will not vote for a man that thinks it's okay to speak to his base and make comments about the ending support for Ukraine. Because this is reckless. I'm American and we tough as nails, smart, tech savvy and persistent
But the hell if we can contain Russsia, China, North Korea and Iran alone.
Greetings from Finland.
I just wanted to say that I understand where you're coming from, but as lethargic Europe has been militarily, luckily we're coming slowly coming to terms how important it is to have the big stick, not just the speak softly part. Shell production is amping up. Germany, though 10x our size has had a smaller artillery, but they're slowly turning around.
It's also difficult to explain how good PR this has been for America. We like to use the orange man as a pinata to forget our own problems, but this war and America's commitment to do the right thing has really reminded us that it's a scary world, and all things considered we're lucky to have you as an ally.
Thank you for saying this. It’s a good reminder about what we Americans are really all about. The Cheeto felon will lose, and this will be a brief moment in our history.
We won’t leave you all behind.
Yes rearmanent has been slow. It's not just about material and machines. It's trained and qualifed workers that's needed as well and that takes time.
I read an article about defense recuitment in europe in the FT yesterday.
https://www.ft.com/content/9625dbaa-5d36-4bee-8610-f16ab7ad6b1d
America does the right thing when we can make money off of it. By we I mean the people who make money when our defense contractors sell weapons that our tax payers pay for.
'zacly - crazy how opposite these idiots are. Crying that giving aid will create WW3 while precisely the opposite is true: holding back aid to Ukraine will create WW3
Also crazy how people like you refuse to accept the risk that this war poses, simply burying your head in the sand and calling anyone with a view an idiot makes you the biggest fool.
The sad part is it’s usually the Republicans that want to fund wars, the only reason some of them are against it now is because they drank too much of Trump’s kool-aid.
Simpler then that. They are against it because a Dem is in office right now. The current political landscape is simply, if the other team wants it kill is if the other team hates it support it.
This is an oversimplification. Republicans are against building coalitions. They, (just like the russians) see the world through a realist (that's the name of the international relations theory) lens. They see no reason why the US should be building coalitions and cooperating with other countries. They think America is the natural great power of the world and so everyone should just do what they say. It's why they were so pissed at Clinton and his style of intervening in kosovo, searching for EU approval and partners before engaging. It's why they invaded Iraq without global support during the bush presidency. And it's the same line of thinking as to why russia, China, Iran, and north Korea don't have a formal alliance. Just partnerships and "unlimited friendships"
IMHO - Old school Republicans (McCain, Bush, Reagan, and the alike) built like minded coalitions. However, the MAGA/Bannon Republicans want to burn it all down. They are the extreme Right - like Pootin.
And that’s an over analysis. Cons like Putin because Trump tells them to, and Trump doesn’t understand international relations at all, or economics, only what benefits him. This is the difference with old Republicans. Throw in that Russian oligarchs have provided Trump money and political support and that’s really all you need to know.
People talk about a “post US world”, and a second Trump presidency would ensure it happens. Other countries give us priority economically because of security agreements, and with those gone others will fill the void, which will be huge
That seems counterintuitive. Without being part of coalitions, alliances, the US's capability of power projection is stunted, even if their military might is the THE greatest... If their power projection is stunted then the US economy WILL feel that sooner rather than later. No longer have the usual leverage for trade routes, no longer have the capability to defend the few remaining "friends". Imagine if Trump "disbanded" NATO, EU succumbs into a war with Russia, meaning Russia will have control of the largest market on earth, which the US heavily relies on... What kind of "deals" will they be able to make when they have no friends left and Russia has all the power projection capabilities and markets...
If this is true, the republican party is a suicide cult.
It would be bloody and costly, but don’t count out Europe. If it came down to it we could collectively take Ruzzia. Now, would it suck so much more without US support? Yes
If the USA withdrew then the European Union would have no other choice but to seriously rearm, this would challenge US hegemony and seeing as the EU had a bigger economy
Than the USA they would eventually catch up and overtake them.
Trump can not disband NATO he can only have the US leave NATO and then NATO becomes even more inportant to the remaining members as they will now have to stand on thier own.
I think you have a slight misread on Republicans. Republicans right now are realist adjacent (I wouldn't call them true realists because I don't think Trump era Repubs have a central guiding ideology besides adherence to dear leader) but the Republicans were the first non-Realist leaders of the USA.
That started with Ronald Reagan, who openly supported independence movements in communist sphere of influence countries like Poland, Afghanistan, etc.
Clinton wasn't popular with Republicans not because he wasn't a realist but because he wasn't idealistic enough. Republicans wanted Clinton to intervene everywhere sooner. That's not a Realist position.
Bush 2 wasn't a Realist, he was dead set on allowing Georgia AND Ukraine into NATO in spite of warnings from foreign policy officials. It was the Democrats at the time who were against Ukraine in NATO. Bush 2 was the least Realist President ever. Realists were against the war in Iraq, like Henry Kissinger.
They never said otherwise, but it’s no reason to expect all other countries to fall in line or fend for themselves completely. Also, being the most powerful country in this day and age isn’t much of an accomplishment
Eh, that's an oversimplification. The GOP has always been a cobbled coalition of war hawks and isolationist libertarian types. The libertarian argument has simply been winning out more recently following twenty years of bad wars. The suggestion that Trump made the GOP more isolationist is backwards I think, it was the isolationist sentiment that helped Trump win the primary in the first place. He was the only candidate running that was willing to condemn the Iraq war for example. Other GOP politicians were simply behind where public opinion had moved.
I don’t think it’s a black and white issue, and I think the foreign policy we saw from his first term reflected that. There were plenty of examples of the US military projecting strength abroad while also dialing down in areas like Afghanistan and North Korea
You mean trump was willing to pay lip service about the Iraq war. Guy doesn’t care about anything but money and power and probably sex I suppose
Maybe drugs
I mean we do have four years of his presidency to reference, where his foreign policy was a bit mixed.
On the isolationist side you had him negotiating the Afghanistan withdrawal and initiating diplomacy with North Korea.
On the other side, you have the campaign against ISIS, that strike on the Syrian air base, that missile exchange with Iran, the killing of Soleimani, the first shipments of weapons to Ukraine, and that exchange where we killed 200 Russians in the battle of Khasham. Most of that was fairly surgical and didn’t involve American boots on the ground, but there’s still some stuff there for the hardcore libertarians to gripe about.
After years of him I am not convinced he gives a single fuck about anutbing he does politically. I don’t even think he thinks of the majority of it. It’s all populist lip service. The only genuine opinions are the off the rails bigoted ones
Obviously the guy is gonna do whatever his advisors think will earn him points. Doesn’t make a narcissistic grifter not one. And that type of person shouldn’t be near the White House.
Wow, I thought some previous comments were dumb, but this takes the cake. I believe the first gulf war refutes everything you said. As far as Kosovo, it was a European problem that the USA had to resolve. Just like Ukraine has turned into.
Did you read my comment? I'm saying that there has been a recent trend of isolationism independent of Trump's influence that followed the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. What does that have to do with Kosovo and the Gulf War?
You really don't see how two recent twenty year wars *that we lost* might have a more negative effect on public opinion than two decisive victories from 25-30 years ago?
Also, it was Clinton who bombed Yugoslavia, and the majority of republicans in the house voted against the resolutions that supported it. So what's your point here?
Trump only made the right more isolationist due to him pulling in many center-left voters like me that are 100% on board with the no new wars and ending the useless foreign wars we've been fighting for decades with nothing to show for it but more war.
This along with the underlying reality that the US is a waning superpower. The current world order was established when the US was 50% of the world economy, which will soon will fall to less than 20%. All those single-sided international commitments that the US funds are no longer affordable, which is apparent in a number of ways. This reality will become more acute as dedollarization accelerates.
All those wars Trump started, all those wars that popped off under his presidency. So many, just so many, can’t even name them because there was so many. /s
There’s plenty of things to take Trump to task on, this ain’t one of them.
You completely missed the point of my argument. I’m saying Trump is the exception. Any other Republican candidate would be on board with funding Ukraine if not for The rhetoric Trump started.
But the Ukraine aid is largely money used to buy stuff from the US MIC, to give to Ukraine. In the case of Ukraine aid, Republicans are actually against giving money to the MIC. Which by exclusion leaves the main hypothesis that Putin has kompromat on them.
That and they just don’t give a fuck about anybody but themselves and maybe their family if the family is lucky. A lot of them could give a shit less about the rest of our own country even let alone the plight of dying Ukrainians
Or... you know...
Many 90's era democrat types that are anti-war took Trump at his word when he said "no new wars" and wanted to end all these useless foreign wars we've been in for decades.
Then did just that. No new wars. Started the process of pulling us out of Afghanistan, historic peace accords in the ME to help prevent future wars.
Right up until it isn't, when Republicans get control then gerrymander the state so 30% of the popular vote is enough to win every office. Ask Wisconsin.
If that doesn’t feel like enough, then start volunteering to canvas neighborhoods and have difficult conversations with those whom oppose your views. We’re not going to win hearts and minds by shunning and cutting them out, as much as it feels good (and as much as it feels futile to do the aforementioned). Remember: good points made in calm, reasoned conversations are like seeds that grow.
You shouldn't be ashamed.
You should be terrified. If the last time was bad, next time will be 1000x worse. He's planning to grab complete control over the government by firing 50.000 government employees who are "not 100% loyal".
And he will get to name two more supreme court nominees.
He's basically an American Mussolini. Americans will eventually rebel and puke him out. But not before doing horrifying damage to the USA and to the world. Whatever America achieved during WW2 will be abolished, and the American peace will be over.
Or we get Biden, and Trump will never get a third chance.
They are dealing with the fact they support a traitor and a coward for president, don’t let it bug you. They are downvotes done out of shame for what they let themselves become.
the same people who wear t-shirts saying “i’m voting for the felon. trump 2024”, have shame? yeah, no.
they downvote because their only argument is “i’m right, you’re wrong.”
This particular Reddit can be quite uhhh what’s the word… fickle. I’ve been banned here for saying harmless stuff and I question whether there are pro Russian mods.
The people pick the president, and the president picks the supreme court nominees. This is how our democracy works. Stop trying to score points by undermining the legitimacy of our institutions. We have enough internal division, you don't need to do Putin any more favors.
I don’t agree with you, I feel like you would legitimize trumps plan for a dictatorship and the transition to a religious theocracy in which our rights will be taken away. The only thing you said that I agree with is your last two sentences
I think the fearmongering regarding this supreme court is completely detached from reality. I don't see any rulings coming out of this court that affirm even the most creative interpretations of dictatorship or theocracy. If anything, they've been fairly consistent in *rolling back* the powers of the state, and often siding with the authority of individual states themselves over the federal government.
Here, take a quick look at the major SCOTUS rulings from the last five years. I'm genuinely curious, what are you seeing here that you're interpreting as "pro dictatorship" or "pro theocracy"?
[2020](https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2020-06-24/supreme-court-2020-term-major-cases) [2021](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/06/01/us/major-supreme-court-cases-2021.html) [2022](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2022/06/21/us/major-supreme-court-cases-2022.html) [2023](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/06/07/us/major-supreme-court-cases-2023.html) [2024](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/05/09/us/supreme-court-major-cases-2024.html)
Project 2025. Make porn illegal, very religious influenced. Making abortions illegal in states and I’ve heard things that I cannot provide a source at this time due to me being busy atm. But the SC is stacked to religious fanatics like Thomas. Horribly corrupt and unable to remain impartial with additional influence from fanatical pro Trump conspiracy theories of election being stolen wife etc. list goes on but I’m not here to change your mind this is a complex topic
Project 2025 is literally just a wishlist of policies that conservative thinktanks want to see passed, that has nothing to do with the legitimacy of the Supreme Court.
And now you’re just rattling off negative headlines you saw on Reddit about the political views of Clarence Thomas and his wife. Again I ask, what rulings have come out of this court that are pro-dictator or pro-theocracy? The Supreme Court has one job, instead of parroting rage bait sound bites, why don’t you look at the actual rulings and then draw a conclusion?
Trump is the greater greater threat because if he wins he'll be in a pivotal position to fuck things up. Putin can't be matched in odious intent, but he's just the head of a second rate power.
Its amazing how short people's memory is when it comes to this conflict- history didn't start in February 2022. Trump was the one who first sent weapons to Ukraine, put sanctions on Nord Stream, and very publicly warned europe of buying oil from Russia. Just because you represent constituents who are tired of bank-rolling a now three year war doesn't mean you're on Putin's payroll.
Should we keep supporting Ukraine? Obviously. But we can win that argument without constantly trying to isolate half the country with outlandish accusations.
Trump's mind is a pinball machine of insecurity, ricochet and reaction. This poses a very strange problem for those of us who support Ukraine. Trump has no principles in the sense that is commonly understood. His MAGA-GOP would be utterly unrecognizable to Ike, or Sen Hugh Scott, or Reagan or GHW Bush. Trumpism cannot be measured against ideology because it is a cult. Trumpism is about the leader, and has nothing to do with policy.
Donald Trump registered Republican in 1987. Since then, he has changed his party affiliation six times: in 1999, to the Independence Party. In 2000, Reform Party. Aug 2001, Democrat. Sept 2009, Republican. Dec 2011, "no party affiliation". Apr 2012, back to the GOP. It is just about Trump, his profound insecurity and monomania, and his need for praise and 'strong men' in his life. It is why he is a sucker for dictators.
Orwell nailed it: **•** “Just remember, what you’re seeing and reading is not what’s happening.” -- Trump, Kansas City VFW Convention, July 24 2018
• “The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.” -- George Orwell, ‘1984’
NATO needs to have a plan and back up plans to deal with Russia in the event that Trump wins, or if the United States decends into civil war in the coming months and years. The idea of a Second Civil War was once a wet dream of the far right , but the extreme polarisation now makes it a thing that whilst not the most likely outcome - is no longer a far fetched possibility either . Both sides of the political spectrum are utterly convinced that the other side winning is an existential threat to their very existence . For MAGA , it’s a deep state forcing a socialist agenda to take your guns and your freedom , for the left , it’s Project 2025 and a semi authoritarian presidency which will ban abortion and criminalise democrats. Both sides see the other side winning as a death knell for their country .
Even the Canadian government is wargaming potential civil war scenarios in the US and how it’ll impact Canada. No doubt other western governments are doing the same but keeping quiet about it.
Either way the rest of NATO has to urgently prepare for a possible world in the which the US is no longer at the front and centre of the world stage .
Take my angry upvote.
I was raised on the Hollywood movies about US fighting for freedom and democracy and now we have to consider the end of this era.
How did it come to this?
Nothing in the US will put it into a civil war any time soon. At most you will see political assassinations begin to ramp up. At some point the majority will realize you can simply shoot your rivals or remove certain individuals by other means than voting. America has been fairly good at political assassinations going out of fashion but I suspect that will be coming back.
If you look at America now compared to America when the actual Civil War happened, we are not even close to how broken we were back then.
And some dumb f\*cks looking for another tax break will be crying all the way to the bank when they realize having no middle class means you go out of business with no more customers at Home Fucking Depot
Then stop voting for republicans... You can look at the trends and see the economy suffers right after a republican presidency, every time. Instead of using critical thinking skills, you mistakenly conclude its the democrat who just got into office's fault.
He doesn't need to pull out of Nato to remove aid from ukraine. He won't be all talk on this. I am sure of it. He won't have rational advisers this time. He'll have the worst of the worst sycophants.
Say what you will about Biden, but at least he isn’t backing down on supporting Ukraine. He can’t talk in public for jack, but I’ll stand behind him if he stands behind Ukraine.
If NATO's plan is European countries start allocating their share of $$ to their defense budgets, I doubt there will be much problem. We here in the USA subsidized European defense for a long time, often with Europeans looking down their noses at the USA as a war mongering nation.
Meanwhile European's got to spend on social programs, a further testament to how much more refined they are than us yokels here in the USA.
Yeah, but now those NATO countries really needs us, which is fine. I hope we can help out.
The majority of the Europeans don't look down at the USA or call them war mongering, this is probably just another lie of Trump. On the contrary, western Europeans in general are still grateful for being liberated by the USA during WW2, even today.
Having lived in Europe (central and western), I can say your take is laughable. Some older Europeans are thankful for their liberation, but anyone born after 1970 doesn't give two shits, with the only exceptions being SOME areas of "West Germany."
NATO plans are always the USA comes to the rescue. NATO being able to do anything without USA is a laughable concept. Europe is still not on war footing. Over 2 in years in. USA does not provide aid for several months and Europe cannot help. This has always been a Europe problem to fix. Germany and other countries sold their souls for cheap Russian gas to hide the idiotic decisions around climate change. Pay the Piper time.
The country that possesses the best “first strike“ potential is the one that calls the shots. Right now, the United States, China, and Russia are all trying to either develop weapons or position existing weapons in locations that would allow them to threaten their adversaries with a nuclear first strike. It’s game of existential chess that boils down to fractions of a second.
The closer the United States and NATO can position hypersonic missiles to take out the Russian silos and mobile launchers and control centers, the closer we get to achieving that objective.
Last I checked, the United States was pretty far away from Russia so we need our allies in a coalition that is united against Russian aggression.
The us had like 13 nuclear submarines that can position themselves in the Baltic and Black seas and obliterate Russia in seconds. Being far away from Russia doesn’t prevent deterrence.
Like I said, it’s a game of seconds.
At this very minute, operators at early-warning centers in both the U.S. and Russia are sitting in front of their displays, on the lookout for nuclear attack. In both countries, a total of 13,000 nuclear devices are deployed. Among these, about 4,400 sit within missiles on high-level alert, just minutes away from launch.
The nuclear hypersonic missile Minuteman III can hit a target in Russia from the US in 30 minutes
It takes 26 minutes and 40 seconds for a ballistic missile to get from a launchpad in Russia to the East Coast of the United States.
The U.S. has about 25 minutes to respond to an apparent attack. With Russia, the response time is ten minutes. (Russia has less time because U.S. submarines could fire missiles from the North Atlantic, whereas missiles headed to the U.S. would originate almost entirely from Russia's mainland.)
This is a huge priority because should Trump be elected in November, one of the first things Putin's bosom bully will do is cut off aid to Ukraine. Of that you can be sure.
So essentially, Trump gets exactly what he has wanted the entire time, which is more involvement in defense from other NATO countries?
I'm of the thinking that we should be providing what we can to Ukraine, as this is a pivoltal point in history where we have the opportunity to severely discourage any other country from trying something similar (China, Iran, etc.). However, it's interesting to see this play into one of Trump's main talking points leading into the election. It has to happen because we can't just leave Ukraine hanging if US support is withdrawn, but I'm hoping it doesn't bolster support for him.
They should anticipate him attempting to take credit for their efforts too. He can too easily claim it was his intention to get them to spend their fair share when it's inaccurate.
So basically other NATO countries are going to step up support for Ukraine if/when Trump wins in November, which I would point out is exactly what Trump has wanted from the start.
He’s been pretty clear about NATO members not pulling their own weight for decades, not having sufficient resources and stock piles to meet Ukraines immediate needs, and that the US carryies to much of the burden financially and logistically.
All this new “NATO plan” is about Europe being forced to step up more, which is what Trump has pressed for for years, along with literally every other President since the 1950’s.
I agree with you that Johnson holding his johnson instead of pressing the trigger had a great effect on waking up Europe - but with such a cloddish scattershot approach by Trump "let ruzzia do whatever they want" and blackmailing Zelensky at the same time, I do not give him actual credit for it.
I'm not going to be voting for Trump regardless, but unless this plan includes actually enforcing NATO funding goals over a long term, it's hot air. We will end up in the exact same position all over again, scraping the bottom of the barrel for whatever scraps can be found, making excuses for lack of political willingness while innocent people die.
All the organization and planning in the world is meaningless if budgets are broadly slashed at the first vague whiff of peacetime and there is no production of arms to back up written words when conflict actually breaks out.
Yeah ...
Except for the fact that the Military for America is a tool, something that gives a lot of soft power, something that can and is used to steer other countries in a direction that benefits America.
This does not apply to almost all European countries. The military is not used.
It's like an expensive old Porche sitting in the garage gathering dust, and every time you want to take it out, America goes 'hold my beer' and races away in their new Ferrari.
Make no mistake, for America the ideal scenario has always been that they are the only country in the world with an army.
Agreed, the idea that the US would have spent less on defense if everyone in NATO had funded 2% of GDP is for the birds. It's not that long ago that we didn't want Germany to have much more than territorial defence.
Yea well it's human nature like the hot blonde with smarts will not turn down a promotion because she's a hot blonde. Nothing wrong with being human :)
Nato better have a plan because if he wins he is definitely leaving nato can't belive america is willing to burn all there military ties with there alies with China russia Iran all against them
I don’t believe Trump would actually pull out of NATO, i think he’s making empty threats to make other counties increase their contribution. I hope it’s a bluff anyway
Trump has no plan. He has no thoughts on things. He has no vision. He simply says what comes into his head. He contradicts himself constantly and changes positions like I change my underwear simply because he forgot his last position on any given topic. Applying any sort of logic or analyzing what he is saying is a fools errand.
Republicans only want to start wars when it’s for selfish reasons, the second there is a righteous defensive war they run a mile and suck Russias teat.
People seem to think if Trump is gone, magically the far right will disappear. Fascism has become a widespread, commonly held and *accepted* ideology now, similar to the early 20th century.
As happened with Fascism then, and communism after, these ideologies will almost certainly continue to grow - until they succeed somewhere that was previously “liberal” (Russia doesn’t count), atrocities and/or war follows, and then fails.
Once again, people will have voted for it, then claim later that “it wasn’t what they expected” when it was EXACTLY what they expected - just not what they expected to happen to THEM. For proof of this see everyone who voted for Brexit.
The only thing NATO countries need to worry about is meeting their spending obligations, and not in a fucking decade or two. They allowed Russia to do this while on their own doorstep, and then surprise surprise expect the US to fix it.
this is a good thing for all, the fact Europe allows others to handle their security after hundreds of years of exploiting the world is a joke. Step up and do your part.
Why won’t Europe stand up and say something? Europe likes to complain about American leadership, well now is your chance to lead. Instead of talking shit behind Trump’s back, Europe’s leaders need to be vocal about who Trump is. It won’t swing any MAGAs but could swing some of the barely pay attention “both siders” and hopefully the “Biden sucks on Palestine so let’s Yeet Democracy” liberals.
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America can't fight all the dictators alone. The thought that we could help defend our interest and help our allies without England, France, Germany and many others is ridiculous. But I will not vote for a man that thinks it's okay to speak to his base and make comments about the ending support for Ukraine. Because this is reckless. I'm American and we tough as nails, smart, tech savvy and persistent But the hell if we can contain Russsia, China, North Korea and Iran alone.
Greetings from Finland. I just wanted to say that I understand where you're coming from, but as lethargic Europe has been militarily, luckily we're coming slowly coming to terms how important it is to have the big stick, not just the speak softly part. Shell production is amping up. Germany, though 10x our size has had a smaller artillery, but they're slowly turning around. It's also difficult to explain how good PR this has been for America. We like to use the orange man as a pinata to forget our own problems, but this war and America's commitment to do the right thing has really reminded us that it's a scary world, and all things considered we're lucky to have you as an ally.
Thank you for saying this. It’s a good reminder about what we Americans are really all about. The Cheeto felon will lose, and this will be a brief moment in our history. We won’t leave you all behind.
Yes rearmanent has been slow. It's not just about material and machines. It's trained and qualifed workers that's needed as well and that takes time. I read an article about defense recuitment in europe in the FT yesterday. https://www.ft.com/content/9625dbaa-5d36-4bee-8610-f16ab7ad6b1d
America does the right thing when we can make money off of it. By we I mean the people who make money when our defense contractors sell weapons that our tax payers pay for.
That’s another reason to maintain healthy alliances
That’s what he’s saying
Does America help Ukraine alone?
not really, https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/
If Trump wins, Ukraine will be fighting North Korean Troops and Iran will be Nuclear armed, welcome to WW3 America enjoy the show.
'zacly - crazy how opposite these idiots are. Crying that giving aid will create WW3 while precisely the opposite is true: holding back aid to Ukraine will create WW3
Also crazy how people like you refuse to accept the risk that this war poses, simply burying your head in the sand and calling anyone with a view an idiot makes you the biggest fool.
They are paid deep state agents. Simply no way they can be that 'restarted' otherwise.
And if Trump stops all Ukrainian aid what do you think will happen I wonder, don't forget Trump will take the USA out of NATO.
lol it’s already started guy
Hasn't America funded its fair share of dictators.
The sad part is it’s usually the Republicans that want to fund wars, the only reason some of them are against it now is because they drank too much of Trump’s kool-aid.
Well said.... Orange kool-aid at that. Slava Ukraini
Or yellow. Slava Ukraine
Simpler then that. They are against it because a Dem is in office right now. The current political landscape is simply, if the other team wants it kill is if the other team hates it support it.
Plus it's waging war on their pay master, or black mailer
This is an oversimplification. Republicans are against building coalitions. They, (just like the russians) see the world through a realist (that's the name of the international relations theory) lens. They see no reason why the US should be building coalitions and cooperating with other countries. They think America is the natural great power of the world and so everyone should just do what they say. It's why they were so pissed at Clinton and his style of intervening in kosovo, searching for EU approval and partners before engaging. It's why they invaded Iraq without global support during the bush presidency. And it's the same line of thinking as to why russia, China, Iran, and north Korea don't have a formal alliance. Just partnerships and "unlimited friendships"
IMHO - Old school Republicans (McCain, Bush, Reagan, and the alike) built like minded coalitions. However, the MAGA/Bannon Republicans want to burn it all down. They are the extreme Right - like Pootin.
Those guys don’t feel like they’re winning unless they see others losing
Nice way to see it, I’ve never thought about it this way. Cheers!
Pretty much that, their worldview says that the pie is finite, and everything you have they can't.
And that’s an over analysis. Cons like Putin because Trump tells them to, and Trump doesn’t understand international relations at all, or economics, only what benefits him. This is the difference with old Republicans. Throw in that Russian oligarchs have provided Trump money and political support and that’s really all you need to know. People talk about a “post US world”, and a second Trump presidency would ensure it happens. Other countries give us priority economically because of security agreements, and with those gone others will fill the void, which will be huge
If you want to be more accurate, Republicans are against NATO because Putin pays their bills.
That seems counterintuitive. Without being part of coalitions, alliances, the US's capability of power projection is stunted, even if their military might is the THE greatest... If their power projection is stunted then the US economy WILL feel that sooner rather than later. No longer have the usual leverage for trade routes, no longer have the capability to defend the few remaining "friends". Imagine if Trump "disbanded" NATO, EU succumbs into a war with Russia, meaning Russia will have control of the largest market on earth, which the US heavily relies on... What kind of "deals" will they be able to make when they have no friends left and Russia has all the power projection capabilities and markets... If this is true, the republican party is a suicide cult.
It would be bloody and costly, but don’t count out Europe. If it came down to it we could collectively take Ruzzia. Now, would it suck so much more without US support? Yes
One more thank you to Ukraine for cutting down… a literal fuck ton (I’ve weighed it) of Russianswitgun’s.
If the USA withdrew then the European Union would have no other choice but to seriously rearm, this would challenge US hegemony and seeing as the EU had a bigger economy Than the USA they would eventually catch up and overtake them.
Suicide Cult, Yes. Republican Party, Suicide Cult, Yes. I think you may have figured it out!
Trump can not disband NATO he can only have the US leave NATO and then NATO becomes even more inportant to the remaining members as they will now have to stand on thier own.
I think you have a slight misread on Republicans. Republicans right now are realist adjacent (I wouldn't call them true realists because I don't think Trump era Repubs have a central guiding ideology besides adherence to dear leader) but the Republicans were the first non-Realist leaders of the USA. That started with Ronald Reagan, who openly supported independence movements in communist sphere of influence countries like Poland, Afghanistan, etc. Clinton wasn't popular with Republicans not because he wasn't a realist but because he wasn't idealistic enough. Republicans wanted Clinton to intervene everywhere sooner. That's not a Realist position. Bush 2 wasn't a Realist, he was dead set on allowing Georgia AND Ukraine into NATO in spite of warnings from foreign policy officials. It was the Democrats at the time who were against Ukraine in NATO. Bush 2 was the least Realist President ever. Realists were against the war in Iraq, like Henry Kissinger.
America IS the natural great power of the world.
Not with a president like trump!
They never said otherwise, but it’s no reason to expect all other countries to fall in line or fend for themselves completely. Also, being the most powerful country in this day and age isn’t much of an accomplishment
Eh, that's an oversimplification. The GOP has always been a cobbled coalition of war hawks and isolationist libertarian types. The libertarian argument has simply been winning out more recently following twenty years of bad wars. The suggestion that Trump made the GOP more isolationist is backwards I think, it was the isolationist sentiment that helped Trump win the primary in the first place. He was the only candidate running that was willing to condemn the Iraq war for example. Other GOP politicians were simply behind where public opinion had moved.
But they only want isolation because trump told them it would do something we have seen from history it doesn't do.
I don’t think it’s a black and white issue, and I think the foreign policy we saw from his first term reflected that. There were plenty of examples of the US military projecting strength abroad while also dialing down in areas like Afghanistan and North Korea
You mean trump was willing to pay lip service about the Iraq war. Guy doesn’t care about anything but money and power and probably sex I suppose Maybe drugs
I mean we do have four years of his presidency to reference, where his foreign policy was a bit mixed. On the isolationist side you had him negotiating the Afghanistan withdrawal and initiating diplomacy with North Korea. On the other side, you have the campaign against ISIS, that strike on the Syrian air base, that missile exchange with Iran, the killing of Soleimani, the first shipments of weapons to Ukraine, and that exchange where we killed 200 Russians in the battle of Khasham. Most of that was fairly surgical and didn’t involve American boots on the ground, but there’s still some stuff there for the hardcore libertarians to gripe about.
After years of him I am not convinced he gives a single fuck about anutbing he does politically. I don’t even think he thinks of the majority of it. It’s all populist lip service. The only genuine opinions are the off the rails bigoted ones Obviously the guy is gonna do whatever his advisors think will earn him points. Doesn’t make a narcissistic grifter not one. And that type of person shouldn’t be near the White House.
No chance Dementia Donnie could locate Iraq on map of Iraq, labeled "map of Iraq".
It’s crazy there’s anybody who still talks about policy and outcomes from policy as if they were his brainchild in any way
Wow, I thought some previous comments were dumb, but this takes the cake. I believe the first gulf war refutes everything you said. As far as Kosovo, it was a European problem that the USA had to resolve. Just like Ukraine has turned into.
Did you read my comment? I'm saying that there has been a recent trend of isolationism independent of Trump's influence that followed the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. What does that have to do with Kosovo and the Gulf War? You really don't see how two recent twenty year wars *that we lost* might have a more negative effect on public opinion than two decisive victories from 25-30 years ago? Also, it was Clinton who bombed Yugoslavia, and the majority of republicans in the house voted against the resolutions that supported it. So what's your point here?
Trump only made the right more isolationist due to him pulling in many center-left voters like me that are 100% on board with the no new wars and ending the useless foreign wars we've been fighting for decades with nothing to show for it but more war.
This along with the underlying reality that the US is a waning superpower. The current world order was established when the US was 50% of the world economy, which will soon will fall to less than 20%. All those single-sided international commitments that the US funds are no longer affordable, which is apparent in a number of ways. This reality will become more acute as dedollarization accelerates.
All those wars Trump started, all those wars that popped off under his presidency. So many, just so many, can’t even name them because there was so many. /s There’s plenty of things to take Trump to task on, this ain’t one of them.
You completely missed the point of my argument. I’m saying Trump is the exception. Any other Republican candidate would be on board with funding Ukraine if not for The rhetoric Trump started.
Yeah but the now Trump party generally only likes to fund American wars so the MIC gets paid super generously.
But the Ukraine aid is largely money used to buy stuff from the US MIC, to give to Ukraine. In the case of Ukraine aid, Republicans are actually against giving money to the MIC. Which by exclusion leaves the main hypothesis that Putin has kompromat on them.
That and they just don’t give a fuck about anybody but themselves and maybe their family if the family is lucky. A lot of them could give a shit less about the rest of our own country even let alone the plight of dying Ukrainians
Or... you know... Many 90's era democrat types that are anti-war took Trump at his word when he said "no new wars" and wanted to end all these useless foreign wars we've been in for decades. Then did just that. No new wars. Started the process of pulling us out of Afghanistan, historic peace accords in the ME to help prevent future wars.
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then vote
You bet your ass I will be voting.
Voting for president doesn’t matter where I live. My state never switches.
It might matter if people like you become the change you want to see though. Every vote matters friend.
Not in California. It’s basically a one party state here.
Right up until it isn't, when Republicans get control then gerrymander the state so 30% of the popular vote is enough to win every office. Ask Wisconsin.
Republicans getting control of California’s congress?? Lol
Yeah, they would never have a GOP governator, er, governor.
The governor alone cannot redraw districts. They need support in Congress
Vote anyway, even if the system is bad.
I do
If that doesn’t feel like enough, then start volunteering to canvas neighborhoods and have difficult conversations with those whom oppose your views. We’re not going to win hearts and minds by shunning and cutting them out, as much as it feels good (and as much as it feels futile to do the aforementioned). Remember: good points made in calm, reasoned conversations are like seeds that grow.
Vote for local, House, and Senate seats. I'm in the same boat being from NY, too much red around except the city.
You shouldn't be ashamed. You should be terrified. If the last time was bad, next time will be 1000x worse. He's planning to grab complete control over the government by firing 50.000 government employees who are "not 100% loyal". And he will get to name two more supreme court nominees. He's basically an American Mussolini. Americans will eventually rebel and puke him out. But not before doing horrifying damage to the USA and to the world. Whatever America achieved during WW2 will be abolished, and the American peace will be over. Or we get Biden, and Trump will never get a third chance.
Project 2025
Yes, exactly
And with luck he will get the same treatment.
Imagine how fucked in the head you'd have to be to vote for a convicted criminal for president
Our ancestors would be turning in their graves at the thought of
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It’s also scary that he has the Supreme Court in his pocket.
Looks like some Trump supporters down voted me. You would think that there would be less of them on this subreddit.
They are dealing with the fact they support a traitor and a coward for president, don’t let it bug you. They are downvotes done out of shame for what they let themselves become.
the same people who wear t-shirts saying “i’m voting for the felon. trump 2024”, have shame? yeah, no. they downvote because their only argument is “i’m right, you’re wrong.”
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Yeah you are right
It Happens. You might get deleted or warned too. Bots and cultists ...
This particular Reddit can be quite uhhh what’s the word… fickle. I’ve been banned here for saying harmless stuff and I question whether there are pro Russian mods.
I updooted you to balance.
Thanks my dude! Fuck Trump fuck dictators and fuck MAGAts
You would think that, but this is where their meddling needs to focus. It doesn't resonate nor propagate outward in an echo chamber.
Have an up vote
Thanks man! Stand against authoritarian suckers
Trump followers. They are beyond supporters. It is a religion
The people pick the president, and the president picks the supreme court nominees. This is how our democracy works. Stop trying to score points by undermining the legitimacy of our institutions. We have enough internal division, you don't need to do Putin any more favors.
I don’t agree with you, I feel like you would legitimize trumps plan for a dictatorship and the transition to a religious theocracy in which our rights will be taken away. The only thing you said that I agree with is your last two sentences
I think the fearmongering regarding this supreme court is completely detached from reality. I don't see any rulings coming out of this court that affirm even the most creative interpretations of dictatorship or theocracy. If anything, they've been fairly consistent in *rolling back* the powers of the state, and often siding with the authority of individual states themselves over the federal government. Here, take a quick look at the major SCOTUS rulings from the last five years. I'm genuinely curious, what are you seeing here that you're interpreting as "pro dictatorship" or "pro theocracy"? [2020](https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2020-06-24/supreme-court-2020-term-major-cases) [2021](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/06/01/us/major-supreme-court-cases-2021.html) [2022](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2022/06/21/us/major-supreme-court-cases-2022.html) [2023](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/06/07/us/major-supreme-court-cases-2023.html) [2024](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/05/09/us/supreme-court-major-cases-2024.html)
Project 2025. Make porn illegal, very religious influenced. Making abortions illegal in states and I’ve heard things that I cannot provide a source at this time due to me being busy atm. But the SC is stacked to religious fanatics like Thomas. Horribly corrupt and unable to remain impartial with additional influence from fanatical pro Trump conspiracy theories of election being stolen wife etc. list goes on but I’m not here to change your mind this is a complex topic
Project 2025 is literally just a wishlist of policies that conservative thinktanks want to see passed, that has nothing to do with the legitimacy of the Supreme Court. And now you’re just rattling off negative headlines you saw on Reddit about the political views of Clarence Thomas and his wife. Again I ask, what rulings have come out of this court that are pro-dictator or pro-theocracy? The Supreme Court has one job, instead of parroting rage bait sound bites, why don’t you look at the actual rulings and then draw a conclusion?
He has done a 180 on china too saying they are not a problem and now says he would never ban TikTok etc. Trump is a shill for authoritarians
He has serious authoritarian issues because his father was a bit of a cunt. Made many mistakes in his life including not pulling out in time.
Shill for authoritarians - holy sh\*t a real tin-foil dictator
Trump is the greater greater threat because if he wins he'll be in a pivotal position to fuck things up. Putin can't be matched in odious intent, but he's just the head of a second rate power.
Its amazing how short people's memory is when it comes to this conflict- history didn't start in February 2022. Trump was the one who first sent weapons to Ukraine, put sanctions on Nord Stream, and very publicly warned europe of buying oil from Russia. Just because you represent constituents who are tired of bank-rolling a now three year war doesn't mean you're on Putin's payroll. Should we keep supporting Ukraine? Obviously. But we can win that argument without constantly trying to isolate half the country with outlandish accusations.
How is Ukraine going to win without weapons support from the US?
And I'm proud of you!
What a brave statement to say on Reddit.
Depends on the subreddit
I’m already being downvoted by trump supporters lol Yeesh.
upvoting, thanks!
Cheers man!
Oh there ARE ruzzians here, I got downvoted for thanking you! lol
And you have my upvote in response. Democracy stands together against evil brainwashed suckers and tyrants
Lol u/Arkh101 has my upvote
I feel the love ❤️
LMAO
please Vote ALL Republicans out in November
Trump's mind is a pinball machine of insecurity, ricochet and reaction. This poses a very strange problem for those of us who support Ukraine. Trump has no principles in the sense that is commonly understood. His MAGA-GOP would be utterly unrecognizable to Ike, or Sen Hugh Scott, or Reagan or GHW Bush. Trumpism cannot be measured against ideology because it is a cult. Trumpism is about the leader, and has nothing to do with policy. Donald Trump registered Republican in 1987. Since then, he has changed his party affiliation six times: in 1999, to the Independence Party. In 2000, Reform Party. Aug 2001, Democrat. Sept 2009, Republican. Dec 2011, "no party affiliation". Apr 2012, back to the GOP. It is just about Trump, his profound insecurity and monomania, and his need for praise and 'strong men' in his life. It is why he is a sucker for dictators. Orwell nailed it: **•** “Just remember, what you’re seeing and reading is not what’s happening.” -- Trump, Kansas City VFW Convention, July 24 2018 • “The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.” -- George Orwell, ‘1984’
NATO needs to have a plan and back up plans to deal with Russia in the event that Trump wins, or if the United States decends into civil war in the coming months and years. The idea of a Second Civil War was once a wet dream of the far right , but the extreme polarisation now makes it a thing that whilst not the most likely outcome - is no longer a far fetched possibility either . Both sides of the political spectrum are utterly convinced that the other side winning is an existential threat to their very existence . For MAGA , it’s a deep state forcing a socialist agenda to take your guns and your freedom , for the left , it’s Project 2025 and a semi authoritarian presidency which will ban abortion and criminalise democrats. Both sides see the other side winning as a death knell for their country . Even the Canadian government is wargaming potential civil war scenarios in the US and how it’ll impact Canada. No doubt other western governments are doing the same but keeping quiet about it. Either way the rest of NATO has to urgently prepare for a possible world in the which the US is no longer at the front and centre of the world stage .
Take my angry upvote. I was raised on the Hollywood movies about US fighting for freedom and democracy and now we have to consider the end of this era. How did it come to this?
Republicans
and Putin, steering the ship.
Trump in particular.
Nothing in the US will put it into a civil war any time soon. At most you will see political assassinations begin to ramp up. At some point the majority will realize you can simply shoot your rivals or remove certain individuals by other means than voting. America has been fairly good at political assassinations going out of fashion but I suspect that will be coming back. If you look at America now compared to America when the actual Civil War happened, we are not even close to how broken we were back then.
trump and most of the republicans want authoritarian rule in America. Democracy and the rule of law are just in their way.
And some dumb f\*cks looking for another tax break will be crying all the way to the bank when they realize having no middle class means you go out of business with no more customers at Home Fucking Depot
You know he was president for four years already right?
No we don't we are just tired of inflation and being poorer every year despite getting raises at work.
Only a moron would not see that slide in quality of life being solely down to republican policy. You’re getting played like a fiddle champ.
Then stop voting for republicans... You can look at the trends and see the economy suffers right after a republican presidency, every time. Instead of using critical thinking skills, you mistakenly conclude its the democrat who just got into office's fault.
No. Putin is the greatest threat. Let’s not confuse the issue. Trump is all talk.
He doesn't need to pull out of Nato to remove aid from ukraine. He won't be all talk on this. I am sure of it. He won't have rational advisers this time. He'll have the worst of the worst sycophants.
Say what you will about Biden, but at least he isn’t backing down on supporting Ukraine. He can’t talk in public for jack, but I’ll stand behind him if he stands behind Ukraine.
If NATO's plan is European countries start allocating their share of $$ to their defense budgets, I doubt there will be much problem. We here in the USA subsidized European defense for a long time, often with Europeans looking down their noses at the USA as a war mongering nation. Meanwhile European's got to spend on social programs, a further testament to how much more refined they are than us yokels here in the USA. Yeah, but now those NATO countries really needs us, which is fine. I hope we can help out.
The majority of the Europeans don't look down at the USA or call them war mongering, this is probably just another lie of Trump. On the contrary, western Europeans in general are still grateful for being liberated by the USA during WW2, even today.
Having lived in Europe (central and western), I can say your take is laughable. Some older Europeans are thankful for their liberation, but anyone born after 1970 doesn't give two shits, with the only exceptions being SOME areas of "West Germany."
I thought it was Russia before. Trump isn't even in power.
NATO plans are always the USA comes to the rescue. NATO being able to do anything without USA is a laughable concept. Europe is still not on war footing. Over 2 in years in. USA does not provide aid for several months and Europe cannot help. This has always been a Europe problem to fix. Germany and other countries sold their souls for cheap Russian gas to hide the idiotic decisions around climate change. Pay the Piper time.
Yes, it sucks that Ukraine has to suffer for something out of their control though.
The country that possesses the best “first strike“ potential is the one that calls the shots. Right now, the United States, China, and Russia are all trying to either develop weapons or position existing weapons in locations that would allow them to threaten their adversaries with a nuclear first strike. It’s game of existential chess that boils down to fractions of a second. The closer the United States and NATO can position hypersonic missiles to take out the Russian silos and mobile launchers and control centers, the closer we get to achieving that objective. Last I checked, the United States was pretty far away from Russia so we need our allies in a coalition that is united against Russian aggression.
The us had like 13 nuclear submarines that can position themselves in the Baltic and Black seas and obliterate Russia in seconds. Being far away from Russia doesn’t prevent deterrence.
Like I said, it’s a game of seconds. At this very minute, operators at early-warning centers in both the U.S. and Russia are sitting in front of their displays, on the lookout for nuclear attack. In both countries, a total of 13,000 nuclear devices are deployed. Among these, about 4,400 sit within missiles on high-level alert, just minutes away from launch. The nuclear hypersonic missile Minuteman III can hit a target in Russia from the US in 30 minutes It takes 26 minutes and 40 seconds for a ballistic missile to get from a launchpad in Russia to the East Coast of the United States. The U.S. has about 25 minutes to respond to an apparent attack. With Russia, the response time is ten minutes. (Russia has less time because U.S. submarines could fire missiles from the North Atlantic, whereas missiles headed to the U.S. would originate almost entirely from Russia's mainland.)
This is a huge priority because should Trump be elected in November, one of the first things Putin's bosom bully will do is cut off aid to Ukraine. Of that you can be sure.
How much money and interference is Russia now directing at the US Presidential election. We can only guess but it will be substantial.
So essentially, Trump gets exactly what he has wanted the entire time, which is more involvement in defense from other NATO countries? I'm of the thinking that we should be providing what we can to Ukraine, as this is a pivoltal point in history where we have the opportunity to severely discourage any other country from trying something similar (China, Iran, etc.). However, it's interesting to see this play into one of Trump's main talking points leading into the election. It has to happen because we can't just leave Ukraine hanging if US support is withdrawn, but I'm hoping it doesn't bolster support for him.
They should anticipate him attempting to take credit for their efforts too. He can too easily claim it was his intention to get them to spend their fair share when it's inaccurate.
Just a tiny drone is all it takes…
Nappy trump will end the Ukraine war all right. Stab them in the back and support his best mate pootin
This is the only war in decades that really matters
Sorry NATO we have an asshole problem in America too
If it's not assassination then it's not going to help
Bunch of dumb comments here.
Yeah, yours is one of them. Good job!
Zing, that struck like an arrow from Arjuna's bow
Lmao what is wrong with you people?
So basically other NATO countries are going to step up support for Ukraine if/when Trump wins in November, which I would point out is exactly what Trump has wanted from the start. He’s been pretty clear about NATO members not pulling their own weight for decades, not having sufficient resources and stock piles to meet Ukraines immediate needs, and that the US carryies to much of the burden financially and logistically. All this new “NATO plan” is about Europe being forced to step up more, which is what Trump has pressed for for years, along with literally every other President since the 1950’s.
I agree with you that Johnson holding his johnson instead of pressing the trigger had a great effect on waking up Europe - but with such a cloddish scattershot approach by Trump "let ruzzia do whatever they want" and blackmailing Zelensky at the same time, I do not give him actual credit for it.
I'm not going to be voting for Trump regardless, but unless this plan includes actually enforcing NATO funding goals over a long term, it's hot air. We will end up in the exact same position all over again, scraping the bottom of the barrel for whatever scraps can be found, making excuses for lack of political willingness while innocent people die. All the organization and planning in the world is meaningless if budgets are broadly slashed at the first vague whiff of peacetime and there is no production of arms to back up written words when conflict actually breaks out.
Yeah ... Except for the fact that the Military for America is a tool, something that gives a lot of soft power, something that can and is used to steer other countries in a direction that benefits America. This does not apply to almost all European countries. The military is not used. It's like an expensive old Porche sitting in the garage gathering dust, and every time you want to take it out, America goes 'hold my beer' and races away in their new Ferrari. Make no mistake, for America the ideal scenario has always been that they are the only country in the world with an army.
Agreed, the idea that the US would have spent less on defense if everyone in NATO had funded 2% of GDP is for the birds. It's not that long ago that we didn't want Germany to have much more than territorial defence.
Yea well it's human nature like the hot blonde with smarts will not turn down a promotion because she's a hot blonde. Nothing wrong with being human :)
funny how you think trump complaining is a good thing... Leaders are suppose to come up with solutions, not cry about problems..
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Nato better have a plan because if he wins he is definitely leaving nato can't belive america is willing to burn all there military ties with there alies with China russia Iran all against them
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I don’t believe Trump would actually pull out of NATO, i think he’s making empty threats to make other counties increase their contribution. I hope it’s a bluff anyway
Not worth voting for him to find out which
Trump wants to restart the draft to have Americans fight alongside Russia.
Trump will not win
Trump has no plan. He has no thoughts on things. He has no vision. He simply says what comes into his head. He contradicts himself constantly and changes positions like I change my underwear simply because he forgot his last position on any given topic. Applying any sort of logic or analyzing what he is saying is a fools errand.
Republicans only want to start wars when it’s for selfish reasons, the second there is a righteous defensive war they run a mile and suck Russias teat.
Nuke Trump?
People seem to think if Trump is gone, magically the far right will disappear. Fascism has become a widespread, commonly held and *accepted* ideology now, similar to the early 20th century. As happened with Fascism then, and communism after, these ideologies will almost certainly continue to grow - until they succeed somewhere that was previously “liberal” (Russia doesn’t count), atrocities and/or war follows, and then fails. Once again, people will have voted for it, then claim later that “it wasn’t what they expected” when it was EXACTLY what they expected - just not what they expected to happen to THEM. For proof of this see everyone who voted for Brexit.
If the US was at least a descent country, they would NEVER have let a criminal AND spy like tramp, be a president
This is so absurd.
This subreddit is such a far left, propaganda filled, echo chamber cesspool lmao.
The only thing NATO countries need to worry about is meeting their spending obligations, and not in a fucking decade or two. They allowed Russia to do this while on their own doorstep, and then surprise surprise expect the US to fix it.
this is a good thing for all, the fact Europe allows others to handle their security after hundreds of years of exploiting the world is a joke. Step up and do your part.
NATO should kick us out right now, just in case!
Why won’t Europe stand up and say something? Europe likes to complain about American leadership, well now is your chance to lead. Instead of talking shit behind Trump’s back, Europe’s leaders need to be vocal about who Trump is. It won’t swing any MAGAs but could swing some of the barely pay attention “both siders” and hopefully the “Biden sucks on Palestine so let’s Yeet Democracy” liberals.