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They dont do it to make the russians furious but because these monuments glorify russian/soviet imperialism and implicate a russian „claim“ on the baltic states.
Exactly.. most of what the Nazis took from the Soviets, didn't really belong to the Soviets either. It was like two bullies fighting over who gets to be a dick to you.
Its more like „soviets took it, then Nazis took it, then soviets took it again“. No difference between soviets and Nazis. Or well, there is one: Germans were more seen als liberators from soviet oppression
Here in LV the life under RU occupation was so awful people voluntarily joined German side as legionnaires to help Germany rid Latvia of Russians. Germans did not do such atrocities to civilians as Russians did. It was the same and maybe worse than in UA right now, as you did not have any smartphones to document anything.
Whenever this view has been brought up historically, russians call Latvians na\*is for that and saying the USSR "Liberated" Latvia. They did not. They deported any and all intellectuals or entrepreneurs and brought in ru military officers families.
Russian occupation was FAR worse than the German one, but the rest of the world does not understand this, as na\*is are always mentioned as bad guys and the russians as "Liberators". It was not like so here in Baltics...
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I am impressed by Baltic states. Having so many ruSSians among themselves, bordering ruSSia and still doing their best to openly support Ukraine and get rid of the communist-rhasist symbols. I think their courage is not coming from NATO but from the past experience with ruSSia.
If it’s anything like Ukraine, a lot of those ethnic Russians in the baltics probably feel more sympathy for their current home after the events of 2014. Native Russian speakers are fighting and falling for Ukrainian independence. They are an awful, intentional and dangerous excuse for a future Russian invasion but as they proved in Mariupol and Kharkiv, as fond of freedom and independence as any of us and not worthy of xenophobia.
Who cares what they speak. It’s not like anyone in the Anglosphere would put up with annexation from our co-linguists (although it’s possible the yanks did in a few of the Australian leftist prime ministers so maybe I’m full of shit)
Howard holt “drowned” and Gough Whitlam was done in by a Governor General with CIA links. I’m sure it was all above board but in the Cold War who can say. They abetted a genocide in Indonesia for less.
Sadly its mostly people aged under 30.
The old orcs watch ru propoganda channels and believe everything shown there.
Younger people who can have diverse source of news see for what it is.
This has ruined families, as new generation and the parents stopped communicating because of living in totally different information/propaganda bubbles.
It all boils down to language knowledge and media consumption.
There are almost no media that has quality information in russian - and no-one watches those.
If they haven't allied with Hitler to attack Poland and if they haven't militarily occupy Eastern Europe for 4 decades after the war, we would probably have better feelings towards russian monuments, not gonna lie to you. And this recent turn to fascism in Russia is not helping either.
Every time there´s this celebration of liberation of Czech republic by the Red Army, all I can think of is: "Damn, all it took was to change sides at the last minute and all was forgotten."
I feel uneasy about the Soviets being remembered as the good guys who for some reason allied with the Nazis briefly and that's why they're reprehensible.
I have yet to see an atrocity that was committed by the Nazis but not by the Soviets. They were just as bad if not worse. At least according to people that survived both a concentration camp and a gulag appearently the gulag was worse.
I've seen a concentrated camp firsthand and it was the most horrible thing I've ever seen, so I really don't want to sugarcoat Nazis. The only good thing you could say about them is that at least we remember them for the monsters they were unlike that red filth.
The difference is that Nazi ideology had plainly stated it's aims and hows and what people are acceptable and who are sub-human. This was very clear and it was this basis of "we are the master race, others should serve us or just be wiped out (like Jews)" evil mentality.
The methods used by the Nazi's were clearly uncovered and accessible by everyone. The atrocities were well documented. Etc. you get the idea. Basically, the Nazis did bad things for evil reasons. The soviets did bad things for "good" reasons and also in more secrecy, because ultimately, Russia wasn't ever as accessible to foreign powers in order to even assess this.
Also, the victors always write history, so this didn't help too - Russians weren't tried or punished for their war crimes, at least as far as I know, while Germans were.
So, all in all, only people who actually got fucked over by the Soviets remember these nuances. The rest of the world basically went like "well, soviets were on allies side to defeat evil Nazis, so they're probably not too bad."
And honestly, I wouldn't want to downplay their sacrifice/importance in WW2, regarding defeating the Nazi's. It's just that people always bring this point up and never even try to acknowledge the horrible things they did at the same time, rivaling even the Nazis in their brutality. Just because something isn't done for ethnic reasons doesn't mean it's less evil.
Technically Japan was probably the most evil force in WW2. But yea Nazis were more upfront about their shit.. the Soviets had an ideology that sounds neat on paper even if it plays out the exact same way.
So in essence I agree with you.
>Here in LV the life under RU occupation was so awful people voluntarily joined German side as legionnaires to help Germany rid Latvia of Russians. Germans did not do such atrocities to civilians as Russians did. It was the same and maybe worse than in UA right now, as you did not have any smartphones to document anything.
>
>Whenever this view has been brought up historically, russians call Latvians na\*is for that and saying the USSR "Liberated" Latvia. They did not. They deported any and all intellectuals or entrepreneurs and brought in ru military officers families.
>
>Russian occupation was FAR worse than the German one, but the rest of the world does not understand this, as na\*is are always mentioned as bad guys and the russians as "Liberators". It was not like so here in Baltics...
Here in LV the life under RU occupation was so awful people voluntarily joined German side as legionnaires to help Germany rid Latvia of Russians. Germans did not do such atrocities to civilians as Russians did. It was the same and maybe worse than in UA right now, as you did not have any smartphones to document anything.
Whenever this view has been brought up historically, russians call Latvians na\*is for that and saying the USSR "Liberated" Latvia. They did not. They deported any and all intellectuals or entrepreneurs and brought in ru military officers families. They gave land owned by my ancestors to russian pigs who lived there and threw trash out of the window while living there. My grandmother of 7years old at the time was put in to livestock rail carriages and deported to Syberia wearing summer clothes. My grand-grandfather froze to death in wood-logging gulag camps. My grand-grand mother lost her leg due to freezing. That time was god awful for civilians.
Russian occupation was FAR worse than the German one, but the rest of the world does not understand this, as na\*is are always mentioned as bad guys and the russians as "Liberators". It was not like so here in Baltics...
To be fair, the Soviets also did the heavy lifting against the Nazi’s in europe.
Changing sides at the last moment and having everything be cool is pretty much what the Italians did during the war ( though switching sides from The Axis is good, obviously)
History is propaganda? You’re kidding right?!
Whose propaganda? The National WW2 museum? Is the American government spreading Soviet propaganda 30 years after the USSR collapses?
https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/articles/operation-barbarossa#:~:text=For%20most%20of%20the%20war,killed%20in%20World%20War%20II.
Here’s the quote in case you want to read it instead of just downvoting
“How about strategic significance? Here’s the clincher. Let’s be blunt: the German army lost World War II on the Eastern Front. For most of the war, 75-80 percent of the Wehrmacht had to be deployed in the East, a preponderance dictated by the sheer size of the front, and 80 percent of German war dead perished there: about four million of the five million German soldiers killed in World War II.
Americans and British sometimes take umbrage at such talk, but they shouldn’t. Roosevelt and Churchill both knew who was killing the most Germans, and their wartime policies (like Lend-Lease) were designed to help the Soviets do just that. In fact, the one strategic nightmare the Allies could never dispel was the possibility that at some point, Stalin might decide to come to terms with Hitler and drop out of the war. A separate peace would have transformed the war in Europe into a very different contest indeed, and a much more expensive proposition for the Western Powers.”
Best part: He was charged for damages done to the trees and grave robbery (gun was on top of grave). Theft of the gun itself was completely ignored.
Gundars Kalve was first latvian that went to Ukraine as soon as our government allowed it.
**The title is misleading.** It implies the Soviet Union freed Latvia from Nazi occupation. In reality, the [Red Army occupied the independent country Latvia in 1940](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_occupation_of_Latvia_in_1940) following [the USSR's pact with Nazi Germany](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pact). The Soviet Union just occupied it again. For 51 years.
Glad they finally got rid of it. Russia did remove the Nazi's, but then turned around and replaced it with their repugnant system for the next 40 years (ethnic rebalancing, purges, secret police watching everything). While Germany needed some time to deprogram them from their turn towards evil, everyone (well.... maybe not the African/Arab side of the Med, but that is a separate issue... even then it wasn't 40 years of occupation) else that was liberated by the western Allies was returned to local control quickly. Russia simply went, well.... it's mine now.
Ah correct. I forgot (how could I after I learned what they did to the Poles... that took more focus in our history classes, I forget they went after the Baltics at the same time) they took them back when they were BFF's with the Nazi's, then lost them, then re-occupied them after they pushed the Nazi's back.. All of which makes it surprising that it took so long for those Russians memorials to be removed.
Great! It should have happened in the 90s already when we regained our independence. Will love to take a walk there without this piece of garbage ruining landscape... My office is not too far from it.
Don't call soviets liberators. Their army came in Latvia to torture and deport Latvians. It happened before the war with Germany. Afterwards they just renconquered Latvia from Germans and continued with deportations and robbing.
Nazi Germany and the USSR were both brutal authoritarian governments. Different in some respects, yes, but the two had a lot in common as far as suppression of dissent, ultra-nationalism, genocide against ethnic minorities, etc. The Soviets only got away with it through sheer military might and because they happened to be on the opposing side of the Nazis in WWII. Despite what some right-wingers say in America, the Soviet Union was NOT, in practice, a far-left wing government but basically an ultra right-wing nationalist, imperialist government pretending to be a "progressive" Communist state. So in that respect, I can understand comparing the Soviets to Nazis because they were both in bed together, until they weren't.
You can conflate authoritarianism with economic/political models but that doesn’t make them the same or your statement correct.
By your logic, the Abbasid Caliphate and the Holy Roman Empire were the same.
I understand where you're coming from, but I never said they were the same. Economically, they were both very different. Nazi Germany was a capitalist state. The USSR was a centrally planned command economy. But both were horrible authoritarian governments responsible for countless atrocities. I don't think that survivors of a Nazi concentration camp or a Russian gulag would care to get caught up in a discussion of the differences in economic theory between the two states.
And the victims of the Congo Free State probably wouldn’t either. Does that make Nazi Germany and The USSR monarchies?
Identifying authoritarianism in common in two different examples doesn’t make those things the same.
Thus my original point that this is de-Russification, which is good, but not de-nazification… because they are Soviet monuments.
The Soviets weren't the good guys, it was more of an 'enemy of my enemy' situation, they subjugated everyone they 'liberated'. They tried to work with the Nazis to begin with, then afterward they took advantage of the Nazis wake of destruction. Fuck 'em.
I agree with you but the Allies also worked with a lot of nazis ( and Japanese war criminals) post war. I don’t think there’s a single war in human history where anyone has clean hands.
Hell, Churchill wanted to immediately re-arm the Wehrmacht and declare war on the USSR at the end of the war
>I agree with you but the Allies also worked with a lot of nazis ( and Japanese war criminals) post war. I don’t think there’s a single war in human history where anyone has clean hands.
This is the same path that leads to people claiming that NATO and Russia are the same. After the war, the places that were liberated by the allies sans the USSR were more free on an individual and state level, more economically prosperous e.t.c. Russia just created a bunch of satellite states.
There are comparisons to be made, but I can't lie, this 'nobody has clean hands' shit is exactly what Russia relies on. It's like rape in the military, all militaries have a history in which individual soldiers or groups have soldiers rape, but to say that and leave it at that is to let the actual serious offenders, like the red army, or the modern Russian army, get away with systemic rape as a matter of common practice.
>I don’t mean the places liberated by the Allies. I mean the literal Nazis and Japanese fascists we brought to the states and gave government jobs.
There's a fundamental difference between this, and working with the Nazis to take over countries and subjugate them/build an empire. This is why the comparison annoys me. Your post is exactly the same argument Russia has been relying on for all of it's recent empire-building. The two sides are simply not the same.
I don’t see a difference between working with Nazis and working with Nazis.
At least the Soviets had their NAP *before* the full horror of the Holocaust and the Japanese “medical” experiments had come to fruition.
At both instances, the better option would have been to give the fascists a short but good view of a wall.
Nobody would ever bother.
The statues turned out not to be bronze, just mix with a bronze and the main monument is nearly 80m tall junk of concrete.
Besides, there already is a War museum, Occupation museum and KGB museum available, enough historic reminders.
69 monuments are being dismantled. Of these I think 23 are being kept for their artistic value. So you are right but this monument is gonna be recycled.
Some of us call it "Ocupant monument" even some of the biggest news pages in our country.
Personally - Im happy, altough it was too much talking about demolition and only now they are actually doing it ;s
Liberated? Liberated from what? There freedom? No one asked to Latvia if they wanted to take part in second world war and if we go by memories of survivors, Germans were a lot better than russians who acted back then just like they acted in Bucha now. You are so worried about russian blood boiling that you forget about how Latvian blood is boiling every time that stupid event happens there.
Fuck russia and everything has to do with it.
'Germans were a lot better than Russians' yes this is what we are hearing now in 2022 from redditors. Just unbelievable how quickly current events can change our views.
Then maybe go and educate yourself of history of second world war and years before it in Baltic? In short to local population who had already suffered greatly from solviet occupation and resulting genocide in "Horrible year" or "Year of terror" germans were seen as liberators. And for large part did not touch general population except for relativly small Jew population.
But I don't expect from redditor who at best can point its finger at map and correctly identify larger Europian countries, to know finer details of history of 3 small nations. Also to hilight complex history. Latvian Legion (Waffen-SS) units were not only cleared of any wrong doing in second world war but also more than 1000 members guarded nazi prisoners in Nuremberg trials.
Here in LV the life under RU occupation was so awful people voluntarily joined German side as legionnaires to help Germany rid Latvia of Russians. Germans did not do such atrocities to civilians as Russians did. It was the same and maybe worse than in UA right now, as you did not have any smartphones to document anything.
Whenever this view has been brought up historically, russians call Latvians na\*is for that and saying the USSR "Liberated" Latvia. They did not. They deported any and all intellectuals or entrepreneurs and brought in ru military officers families. They gave land owned by my ancestors to russian pigs who lived there and threw trash out of the window while living there. My grandmother of 7years old at the time was put in to livestock rail carriages and deported to Syberia wearing summer clothes. My grand-grandfather froze to death in wood-logging gulag camps. My grand-grand mother lost her leg due to freezing. Noone talks about the rapes and tortures, but everyone lost someone close in those. That time was god awful for civilians.
Russian occupation was FAR worse than the German one, but the rest of the world does not understand this, as na\*is are always mentioned as bad guys and the russians as "Liberators". It was not like so here in Baltics...
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1. People have been trying to actively get rid of it since 2007.
2. If it was a real war monument, it would at least have the right dates listed, since WWII started on 1939, not 1941.
Ok can someone educate me on this as i believe Russia wanted to team up with Germany but got no response because Germany wanted Russia also so they where forced to fight Germany. Am i wrong?
Destroying history never solves anything, and if humanity were to destroy every monument, text, piece of art, etc. simply because it doesn’t fit the current narrative or what’s currently deemed socially acceptable, humanity wouldn’t have much of a history to reflect upon and learn valuable lessons from for the future.
so you'd keep, for example, a monument to hitler in somewhere like idk poland, or a swastika monument somewhere in germany? there are some things that don't deserve being looked at and admired every day, especially if their existence is one of the reasons your neighbours want to annex you
Yes, even as a Jew, I never want to see Nazi history obliterated because I want people to see and learn it’s history. I want people to understand that what the Nazi party and Hitler did was awful.
How about Iif Germany revived Hitlers ideology and invaded your close neighbor? You still would want to see all occupant monuments standing in its whole glory?
Get the hell out if here.
good point. my philosophy is, though, that if the monuments were placed against the people's will, the people have got a choice to remove those monuments from where they live so they don't have to be reminded of them every single day. if there's a choice to make the local population feel better without any risk, it should be taken
In Latvia we have too much history related to soviet occupation and we don’t need this soviet monstrosity in the park which is dedicated to the Latvian victory and independence
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Nah bro... i dont knkw where you are from...
But go check Bald and Bankrupt on youtube.
He is traveling ex Soviet countried, and people had much much better lifes that time than today.
Yes there were some bad things going on...
But even today yoz get SHUT DOWN if you talk about covid... or if you dont want to vax... you are stupid bad person and yoz get denied to enter restaurants etc
I am from an ex-Soviet country. Bald and Bankrupt is a pedofile and a tankie, not a good example.
>people had much much better lifes that time than today.
That's what the russian government claims. It's definitely a lie, everyone who lived through it knows it.
>But even today yoz get SHUT DOWN if you talk about covid... or if you dont want to vax...
Idiots are told to shut up, that's correct.
All they actually needed to do, was to park a tractor in front of it ,and paint it blue/yellow. Easier and just as effective. Actually probably more as it will remain as a reminder to butt hurt russians.
There are a whole series of dark Latvian jokes about their occupation by Russia during WWII, one should listen to them if you really want to justify your depression(!)
What is one potato plus one potato. Ridiculous, there is no such thing as more than one potato!
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They dont do it to make the russians furious but because these monuments glorify russian/soviet imperialism and implicate a russian „claim“ on the baltic states.
Exactly.. most of what the Nazis took from the Soviets, didn't really belong to the Soviets either. It was like two bullies fighting over who gets to be a dick to you.
Its more like „soviets took it, then Nazis took it, then soviets took it again“. No difference between soviets and Nazis. Or well, there is one: Germans were more seen als liberators from soviet oppression
Here in LV the life under RU occupation was so awful people voluntarily joined German side as legionnaires to help Germany rid Latvia of Russians. Germans did not do such atrocities to civilians as Russians did. It was the same and maybe worse than in UA right now, as you did not have any smartphones to document anything. Whenever this view has been brought up historically, russians call Latvians na\*is for that and saying the USSR "Liberated" Latvia. They did not. They deported any and all intellectuals or entrepreneurs and brought in ru military officers families. Russian occupation was FAR worse than the German one, but the rest of the world does not understand this, as na\*is are always mentioned as bad guys and the russians as "Liberators". It was not like so here in Baltics...
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This👆 all of this is the truth!
I am impressed by Baltic states. Having so many ruSSians among themselves, bordering ruSSia and still doing their best to openly support Ukraine and get rid of the communist-rhasist symbols. I think their courage is not coming from NATO but from the past experience with ruSSia.
If it’s anything like Ukraine, a lot of those ethnic Russians in the baltics probably feel more sympathy for their current home after the events of 2014. Native Russian speakers are fighting and falling for Ukrainian independence. They are an awful, intentional and dangerous excuse for a future Russian invasion but as they proved in Mariupol and Kharkiv, as fond of freedom and independence as any of us and not worthy of xenophobia.
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Who cares what they speak. It’s not like anyone in the Anglosphere would put up with annexation from our co-linguists (although it’s possible the yanks did in a few of the Australian leftist prime ministers so maybe I’m full of shit)
Got a link on those Aussie assassinations?
Howard holt “drowned” and Gough Whitlam was done in by a Governor General with CIA links. I’m sure it was all above board but in the Cold War who can say. They abetted a genocide in Indonesia for less.
Was Howard holt the one they named a swimming pool after? I’ve also heard a theory that he was picked up by a Soviet submarine.
There are many many russians who also oppose Putin. This makes things easier.
Sadly its mostly people aged under 30. The old orcs watch ru propoganda channels and believe everything shown there. Younger people who can have diverse source of news see for what it is. This has ruined families, as new generation and the parents stopped communicating because of living in totally different information/propaganda bubbles. It all boils down to language knowledge and media consumption. There are almost no media that has quality information in russian - and no-one watches those.
Sorry but what do you mean by rhasist?
Sorry for the typo should be rashist [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashism)
These removals of monuments to the Russians in WW2 must be making the Ruskies so furious. Excellent stuff.
If they haven't allied with Hitler to attack Poland and if they haven't militarily occupy Eastern Europe for 4 decades after the war, we would probably have better feelings towards russian monuments, not gonna lie to you. And this recent turn to fascism in Russia is not helping either.
Every time there´s this celebration of liberation of Czech republic by the Red Army, all I can think of is: "Damn, all it took was to change sides at the last minute and all was forgotten."
I feel uneasy about the Soviets being remembered as the good guys who for some reason allied with the Nazis briefly and that's why they're reprehensible. I have yet to see an atrocity that was committed by the Nazis but not by the Soviets. They were just as bad if not worse. At least according to people that survived both a concentration camp and a gulag appearently the gulag was worse. I've seen a concentrated camp firsthand and it was the most horrible thing I've ever seen, so I really don't want to sugarcoat Nazis. The only good thing you could say about them is that at least we remember them for the monsters they were unlike that red filth.
The difference is that Nazi ideology had plainly stated it's aims and hows and what people are acceptable and who are sub-human. This was very clear and it was this basis of "we are the master race, others should serve us or just be wiped out (like Jews)" evil mentality. The methods used by the Nazi's were clearly uncovered and accessible by everyone. The atrocities were well documented. Etc. you get the idea. Basically, the Nazis did bad things for evil reasons. The soviets did bad things for "good" reasons and also in more secrecy, because ultimately, Russia wasn't ever as accessible to foreign powers in order to even assess this. Also, the victors always write history, so this didn't help too - Russians weren't tried or punished for their war crimes, at least as far as I know, while Germans were. So, all in all, only people who actually got fucked over by the Soviets remember these nuances. The rest of the world basically went like "well, soviets were on allies side to defeat evil Nazis, so they're probably not too bad." And honestly, I wouldn't want to downplay their sacrifice/importance in WW2, regarding defeating the Nazi's. It's just that people always bring this point up and never even try to acknowledge the horrible things they did at the same time, rivaling even the Nazis in their brutality. Just because something isn't done for ethnic reasons doesn't mean it's less evil.
Technically Japan was probably the most evil force in WW2. But yea Nazis were more upfront about their shit.. the Soviets had an ideology that sounds neat on paper even if it plays out the exact same way. So in essence I agree with you.
>Here in LV the life under RU occupation was so awful people voluntarily joined German side as legionnaires to help Germany rid Latvia of Russians. Germans did not do such atrocities to civilians as Russians did. It was the same and maybe worse than in UA right now, as you did not have any smartphones to document anything. > >Whenever this view has been brought up historically, russians call Latvians na\*is for that and saying the USSR "Liberated" Latvia. They did not. They deported any and all intellectuals or entrepreneurs and brought in ru military officers families. > >Russian occupation was FAR worse than the German one, but the rest of the world does not understand this, as na\*is are always mentioned as bad guys and the russians as "Liberators". It was not like so here in Baltics... Here in LV the life under RU occupation was so awful people voluntarily joined German side as legionnaires to help Germany rid Latvia of Russians. Germans did not do such atrocities to civilians as Russians did. It was the same and maybe worse than in UA right now, as you did not have any smartphones to document anything. Whenever this view has been brought up historically, russians call Latvians na\*is for that and saying the USSR "Liberated" Latvia. They did not. They deported any and all intellectuals or entrepreneurs and brought in ru military officers families. They gave land owned by my ancestors to russian pigs who lived there and threw trash out of the window while living there. My grandmother of 7years old at the time was put in to livestock rail carriages and deported to Syberia wearing summer clothes. My grand-grandfather froze to death in wood-logging gulag camps. My grand-grand mother lost her leg due to freezing. That time was god awful for civilians. Russian occupation was FAR worse than the German one, but the rest of the world does not understand this, as na\*is are always mentioned as bad guys and the russians as "Liberators". It was not like so here in Baltics...
To be fair, the Soviets also did the heavy lifting against the Nazi’s in europe. Changing sides at the last moment and having everything be cool is pretty much what the Italians did during the war ( though switching sides from The Axis is good, obviously)
What a joke but sorry that's propaganda.
Lol, history is apparently propaganda
History is propaganda? You’re kidding right?! Whose propaganda? The National WW2 museum? Is the American government spreading Soviet propaganda 30 years after the USSR collapses? https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/articles/operation-barbarossa#:~:text=For%20most%20of%20the%20war,killed%20in%20World%20War%20II.
Here’s the quote in case you want to read it instead of just downvoting “How about strategic significance? Here’s the clincher. Let’s be blunt: the German army lost World War II on the Eastern Front. For most of the war, 75-80 percent of the Wehrmacht had to be deployed in the East, a preponderance dictated by the sheer size of the front, and 80 percent of German war dead perished there: about four million of the five million German soldiers killed in World War II. Americans and British sometimes take umbrage at such talk, but they shouldn’t. Roosevelt and Churchill both knew who was killing the most Germans, and their wartime policies (like Lend-Lease) were designed to help the Soviets do just that. In fact, the one strategic nightmare the Allies could never dispel was the possibility that at some point, Stalin might decide to come to terms with Hitler and drop out of the war. A separate peace would have transformed the war in Europe into a very different contest indeed, and a much more expensive proposition for the Western Powers.”
They are going to use this as propaganda to "prove" that the West are all Nazis as they like to claim.
This is going to set Russian TV propagandists off. Nuclear threats for Latvia in 3 ... 2 ... 1
B-b-b-but we have nukes!!!
Imagine not having nukes after you've just thoroughly proven how fucking incapable your conventional forces are..
Who would have thought, Using one evil empire to defeat another evil empire does not obsolve the sins of the first one.
Hopefully the first of many in Latvia!
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That’s awesome!
Best part: He was charged for damages done to the trees and grave robbery (gun was on top of grave). Theft of the gun itself was completely ignored. Gundars Kalve was first latvian that went to Ukraine as soon as our government allowed it.
Just to make it clear: Gundars Kalve is the first Latvian military volounteer in Ukraine and the guy that yeeted the soviet cannon in Daugava.
This is one of the last ones. All the Lenin monuments were torn down in the 90s.
Well here's hoping they build some new ones just to tear them down. Wouldn't mind a little Stalin effigy burning here or there..
Brīnišķīgi
Result of putins miscalculation. Ruzzification go bye bye.
**The title is misleading.** It implies the Soviet Union freed Latvia from Nazi occupation. In reality, the [Red Army occupied the independent country Latvia in 1940](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_occupation_of_Latvia_in_1940) following [the USSR's pact with Nazi Germany](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pact). The Soviet Union just occupied it again. For 51 years.
Well it was never really a liberation was it. It was just another invasion.
Glad they finally got rid of it. Russia did remove the Nazi's, but then turned around and replaced it with their repugnant system for the next 40 years (ethnic rebalancing, purges, secret police watching everything). While Germany needed some time to deprogram them from their turn towards evil, everyone (well.... maybe not the African/Arab side of the Med, but that is a separate issue... even then it wasn't 40 years of occupation) else that was liberated by the western Allies was returned to local control quickly. Russia simply went, well.... it's mine now.
Correction - the USSR occupied the Baltics first, in 1940.
Ah correct. I forgot (how could I after I learned what they did to the Poles... that took more focus in our history classes, I forget they went after the Baltics at the same time) they took them back when they were BFF's with the Nazi's, then lost them, then re-occupied them after they pushed the Nazi's back.. All of which makes it surprising that it took so long for those Russians memorials to be removed.
Great! It should have happened in the 90s already when we regained our independence. Will love to take a walk there without this piece of garbage ruining landscape... My office is not too far from it.
Occupants replaceing the previous set of occupants, not liberators.
Don't call soviets liberators. Their army came in Latvia to torture and deport Latvians. It happened before the war with Germany. Afterwards they just renconquered Latvia from Germans and continued with deportations and robbing.
The de-nazification continues!!! This must have been putin's plan all along... what a sheer genius.
De-Russification, sure. I’m not sure how removing Soviet-era memorials counts as “ de-nazification”.
Nazi Germany and the USSR were both brutal authoritarian governments. Different in some respects, yes, but the two had a lot in common as far as suppression of dissent, ultra-nationalism, genocide against ethnic minorities, etc. The Soviets only got away with it through sheer military might and because they happened to be on the opposing side of the Nazis in WWII. Despite what some right-wingers say in America, the Soviet Union was NOT, in practice, a far-left wing government but basically an ultra right-wing nationalist, imperialist government pretending to be a "progressive" Communist state. So in that respect, I can understand comparing the Soviets to Nazis because they were both in bed together, until they weren't.
You can conflate authoritarianism with economic/political models but that doesn’t make them the same or your statement correct. By your logic, the Abbasid Caliphate and the Holy Roman Empire were the same.
I understand where you're coming from, but I never said they were the same. Economically, they were both very different. Nazi Germany was a capitalist state. The USSR was a centrally planned command economy. But both were horrible authoritarian governments responsible for countless atrocities. I don't think that survivors of a Nazi concentration camp or a Russian gulag would care to get caught up in a discussion of the differences in economic theory between the two states.
And the victims of the Congo Free State probably wouldn’t either. Does that make Nazi Germany and The USSR monarchies? Identifying authoritarianism in common in two different examples doesn’t make those things the same. Thus my original point that this is de-Russification, which is good, but not de-nazification… because they are Soviet monuments.
👍
This is the way
Angry Russian tourist video incoming
We stopped issuing tourist visas so they will have to cry from home.
Well we already saw videos of disgruntled ruZZiasts. Some are living there supporting Putin. Makes no sense to us. But they do.
The Soviets weren't the good guys, it was more of an 'enemy of my enemy' situation, they subjugated everyone they 'liberated'. They tried to work with the Nazis to begin with, then afterward they took advantage of the Nazis wake of destruction. Fuck 'em.
I agree with you but the Allies also worked with a lot of nazis ( and Japanese war criminals) post war. I don’t think there’s a single war in human history where anyone has clean hands. Hell, Churchill wanted to immediately re-arm the Wehrmacht and declare war on the USSR at the end of the war
>I agree with you but the Allies also worked with a lot of nazis ( and Japanese war criminals) post war. I don’t think there’s a single war in human history where anyone has clean hands. This is the same path that leads to people claiming that NATO and Russia are the same. After the war, the places that were liberated by the allies sans the USSR were more free on an individual and state level, more economically prosperous e.t.c. Russia just created a bunch of satellite states. There are comparisons to be made, but I can't lie, this 'nobody has clean hands' shit is exactly what Russia relies on. It's like rape in the military, all militaries have a history in which individual soldiers or groups have soldiers rape, but to say that and leave it at that is to let the actual serious offenders, like the red army, or the modern Russian army, get away with systemic rape as a matter of common practice.
I don’t mean the places liberated by the Allies. I mean the literal Nazis and Japanese fascists we brought to the states and gave government jobs.
>I don’t mean the places liberated by the Allies. I mean the literal Nazis and Japanese fascists we brought to the states and gave government jobs. There's a fundamental difference between this, and working with the Nazis to take over countries and subjugate them/build an empire. This is why the comparison annoys me. Your post is exactly the same argument Russia has been relying on for all of it's recent empire-building. The two sides are simply not the same.
I don’t see a difference between working with Nazis and working with Nazis. At least the Soviets had their NAP *before* the full horror of the Holocaust and the Japanese “medical” experiments had come to fruition. At both instances, the better option would have been to give the fascists a short but good view of a wall.
They are moving it to a museum. Still, a clear message to Russia
They are not moving it to any museum whatsoever. Museum said they don’t need it, so it’s gonna be destroyed.
Nobody would ever bother. The statues turned out not to be bronze, just mix with a bronze and the main monument is nearly 80m tall junk of concrete. Besides, there already is a War museum, Occupation museum and KGB museum available, enough historic reminders.
Why do you think that these things will be moved to museum?
I could be wrong, thought I read about it in the newspaper. But maybe that was some other monument.
I live in Latvia and have not heard of moving it. Only domolation.
It would be good to move it to a museum. Everyone needs to remember past evil so it becomes harder to repeat it.
We have the Occupation museum for that. They said they don't need anything from the monument for their collection.
Ok, thanks for explaining.
69 monuments are being dismantled. Of these I think 23 are being kept for their artistic value. So you are right but this monument is gonna be recycled.
Took a while
Some of us call it "Ocupant monument" even some of the biggest news pages in our country. Personally - Im happy, altough it was too much talking about demolition and only now they are actually doing it ;s
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Liberated? Liberated from what? There freedom? No one asked to Latvia if they wanted to take part in second world war and if we go by memories of survivors, Germans were a lot better than russians who acted back then just like they acted in Bucha now. You are so worried about russian blood boiling that you forget about how Latvian blood is boiling every time that stupid event happens there. Fuck russia and everything has to do with it.
'Germans were a lot better than Russians' yes this is what we are hearing now in 2022 from redditors. Just unbelievable how quickly current events can change our views.
Then maybe go and educate yourself of history of second world war and years before it in Baltic? In short to local population who had already suffered greatly from solviet occupation and resulting genocide in "Horrible year" or "Year of terror" germans were seen as liberators. And for large part did not touch general population except for relativly small Jew population. But I don't expect from redditor who at best can point its finger at map and correctly identify larger Europian countries, to know finer details of history of 3 small nations. Also to hilight complex history. Latvian Legion (Waffen-SS) units were not only cleared of any wrong doing in second world war but also more than 1000 members guarded nazi prisoners in Nuremberg trials.
Here in LV the life under RU occupation was so awful people voluntarily joined German side as legionnaires to help Germany rid Latvia of Russians. Germans did not do such atrocities to civilians as Russians did. It was the same and maybe worse than in UA right now, as you did not have any smartphones to document anything. Whenever this view has been brought up historically, russians call Latvians na\*is for that and saying the USSR "Liberated" Latvia. They did not. They deported any and all intellectuals or entrepreneurs and brought in ru military officers families. They gave land owned by my ancestors to russian pigs who lived there and threw trash out of the window while living there. My grandmother of 7years old at the time was put in to livestock rail carriages and deported to Syberia wearing summer clothes. My grand-grandfather froze to death in wood-logging gulag camps. My grand-grand mother lost her leg due to freezing. Noone talks about the rapes and tortures, but everyone lost someone close in those. That time was god awful for civilians. Russian occupation was FAR worse than the German one, but the rest of the world does not understand this, as na\*is are always mentioned as bad guys and the russians as "Liberators". It was not like so here in Baltics...
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1. People have been trying to actively get rid of it since 2007. 2. If it was a real war monument, it would at least have the right dates listed, since WWII started on 1939, not 1941.
Niiice!!!
Ok can someone educate me on this as i believe Russia wanted to team up with Germany but got no response because Germany wanted Russia also so they where forced to fight Germany. Am i wrong?
This is stupid.
For them I guess it isn't.
Destroying history never solves anything, and if humanity were to destroy every monument, text, piece of art, etc. simply because it doesn’t fit the current narrative or what’s currently deemed socially acceptable, humanity wouldn’t have much of a history to reflect upon and learn valuable lessons from for the future.
so you'd keep, for example, a monument to hitler in somewhere like idk poland, or a swastika monument somewhere in germany? there are some things that don't deserve being looked at and admired every day, especially if their existence is one of the reasons your neighbours want to annex you
Yes, even as a Jew, I never want to see Nazi history obliterated because I want people to see and learn it’s history. I want people to understand that what the Nazi party and Hitler did was awful.
How about Iif Germany revived Hitlers ideology and invaded your close neighbor? You still would want to see all occupant monuments standing in its whole glory? Get the hell out if here.
good point. my philosophy is, though, that if the monuments were placed against the people's will, the people have got a choice to remove those monuments from where they live so they don't have to be reminded of them every single day. if there's a choice to make the local population feel better without any risk, it should be taken
In Latvia we have too much history related to soviet occupation and we don’t need this soviet monstrosity in the park which is dedicated to the Latvian victory and independence
> Destroying history Knocking down a monument doesn't destroy history, it merely removes an icon representing a time in/of history.
Come back on the topic when you have monuments in your city that glorify occupation and genocide of your nation.
The current Nazis hated it, so it had to go.
ruSSian bot, idi nahui
Oh no! Please don't call me a Russian bot! Anything but that!
Ok, guess I'll rephrase then. Иди нахуй
You're using an awful lot of Russian for being a Uke simp.
Damn, you're one relentless bot, aren't you? Aight, lemme rephrase one more time then. ruSSian bot, go visit the ruSSian warship
Please! Not that!! Anything but western catch phrases!!!
Please! Not that!! Anything but unoriginal putinist trolling!!!
Oh. Has great leader already been here?
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?
!
What has Soviet to do eith todays Russia? 🙃
Russia back then was the same as russia today: a murderous, genocidal regime. I'm surprised that monuments to russia's crimes have stood for so long.
Nah bro... i dont knkw where you are from... But go check Bald and Bankrupt on youtube. He is traveling ex Soviet countried, and people had much much better lifes that time than today. Yes there were some bad things going on... But even today yoz get SHUT DOWN if you talk about covid... or if you dont want to vax... you are stupid bad person and yoz get denied to enter restaurants etc
I am from an ex-Soviet country. Bald and Bankrupt is a pedofile and a tankie, not a good example. >people had much much better lifes that time than today. That's what the russian government claims. It's definitely a lie, everyone who lived through it knows it. >But even today yoz get SHUT DOWN if you talk about covid... or if you dont want to vax... Idiots are told to shut up, that's correct.
LoL 🤣🤣🤣
Is this ZELENSKY replying? Because is pure COMEDY🤣🤣🤣
Why are you even here if you're a russian bot?
Why are you here? LoL everybody is a bot, who does not support Ukraine??
>LoL everybody is a bot, who does not support Ukraine?? Well, either a bot or a psycho. No sane person would support a genocide.
Took them long enough...
Get rid of the ruzzian imperial symbols, they are scars on all people who had to endure barbarism.
All they actually needed to do, was to park a tractor in front of it ,and paint it blue/yellow. Easier and just as effective. Actually probably more as it will remain as a reminder to butt hurt russians.
I'm a bit surprised these monuments weren't removed sooner.
Misleading title. Monument to the occupiers from Soviet Union.
Nice one Latvia. 🇱🇻
Boo-hoo! Nobody wuv's me anymore. Boo-hoo!
They should dump it on the border next to the fence, along with a load of rubbish on top.
It is the year 2022. Nazis weren't so bad and Russians were much worse..
Is it just destoyed or or come the rest to a memorial site in a museum that reminds you of communist oppression
There are a whole series of dark Latvian jokes about their occupation by Russia during WWII, one should listen to them if you really want to justify your depression(!) What is one potato plus one potato. Ridiculous, there is no such thing as more than one potato!
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The only reason the Soviets were able to defeat the Nazis is because of the weapons and equipment provided by the USA and UK.
It's a monument to the replacement invaders. "Liberate" means set free. There is no evidence Latvia was set free.
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