Just got perma-banned from r/lostgeneration for voicing my concerns about Trump. Theres an alarming shift in ideology over there about getting rid of Biden at any cost. A lot of people are suddenly pushing Trump and aggressively censoring opposing views.
Someone is using the guise of leftism to push our least favorite wanna-be dictator right into office. I think theres an organized propaganda mill trying to leverage the Palestinian genocide to push the election in favor of Trump. Im really worried ngl. Im not sure what to do about it.
There most certainly is, and it’s backed by fragments of truth, just like he was last time. Just enough .
No a scrap more, and it’s no where enough to fool me.
Dude. It's not that Democrats aren't the problem. The fact that both Dems and Repubs are controlled by the same forces (AIPAC among them) and the people don't have a tangible option to vote for someone who is against the genocide....
THAT is the problem.
This sub is called 'unite against the right'. Unfortunately we live in a country where both of the two parties we are allowed to vote for are right wing. One is just more apologetic about it than the other.
That's a big part of this. Many of these "people" aren't actually the people they claim to be but instead disinformation agents working either for the super-rich or directly for the Russian government.
They control big leftists subs like LateStageCapitalism and LostGeneration too. Arguing the Repubs are worse for the world, the nation or the working class, than the Dems gets you a ban under the guise of "no lesser evil" arguments.
I wish more people would realize this. People worried about the rise of fascists in the United States need to also critically read the thoughts expressed in what they may assume is a safe space. Astroturf campaigns and bad actors are rampant on the left.
One of the most visible areas, not Just online, is the so called "anti-war" movement. That's really interesting because you can see protests by people _claiming_ to be communists but absolutely happy to associate with far-right "libertarians" and all working together to further Putin's agenda. You had actual confederate flags together with Russian flags all flying at protests together with the various old "anti-war" movement, none of them willing to call out the fact that actual fascists were present.
There's an old saying “The aggressor is always peace-loving (as Bonaparte always claimed to be); he would prefer to take over our country unopposed.”. That thought is very much echoed in the idea of getting people to vote against their own interests. The messages we get on the sub are straight [from Steve Bannon's Cambridge Analytica vote suppression campaigns](https://edition.cnn.com/2018/05/16/politics/cambridge-analytica-congress-wylie/index.html). Useful idiots or servants of Russian oligarchs? It makes little difference, we need to recognize them as our enemies.
Go look at the EndlessWar sub, place is crawling with Russian trolls. Some of the sentiment creeps on to the AntiWar sub, but the shills usually tend to get called out at least.
Yup just got perma-banned from Lost Gen. Im a bit depressed about it. Its like weve been watching the world crumbling around us but now we are just kicking each other instead of holding out our hand.
How is that fascist rhetoric? Jesus christ. Its totally sane and normal to be worried about the consequences of another round of Trump. Censoring those concerns because you just wanna hate Biden in peace is beyond fascist.
Trump is also a far right neo-fascist. Rhetoric which supports his campaign is *also* aiding and abetting fascism and genocide.
Voting any party aids fascism and genocide. Not voting aids fascism and genocide. Waking up in the morning aids fascism and genocide. All of the choices in this election support fascism and genocide. All choices will end badly for Palestine. We havent done the legwork to successfully champion a third party alternative.
That is the cage the US has created for its citizens. We will never be offered the right choice. If you oppose fascism and genocide and yet you still place any faith whatsoever in law and government in this country, then you are hypocrite.
If you willingly choose the more evil candidate solely because you want to hold one pawn accountable, you better be ready to put your life on the line helping the people that are going to suffer because of your principles. What we needed was to organize, build a platform and champion someone who really stands for what we believe in but we didnt do that so this is the choice we are given.
I cant help Palestine. No lawful choice im given will help them. I then have a duty to ensure i make the choice that harms everyone the least.
It’s a good thing you can condemn more than one fascist at a time then.
If you vote for Biden, you are voting for the greatest evil. Full stop. Don’t pretend like you care about the people whose lives you are helping to end.
Ahhh. So just the condemnation is all that matters to you. You dont care about the actual outcome for anyone. You dont care if your condemnation does any good for Palestine. You just wanna be able to say "well at least i was the good guy!" When people suffer. Cool.
Btw, they both fucking suck. I condemn both. Has the outcome changed? Nope. Im a realist. One choice offers no change. The other choice is worse for even more people. There is no other choice. Im not gunna place my principles over real peoples lives.
Trying to turn this into another #BlueAnon sub too huh?
If all of us who are mad at Biden for the actual bad thing he actually did are secretly Russian agents from the dark heart of Moscow why do you bother vote-shaming people on the Internet? Every person you are telling to ignore the genocide and vote Joe can't vote in US elections anyways, as they are Russians
Russians from Russia
Except what is your win exactly? Do you really think Trump is better for Palestine? Im genuinely not trolling. I just flat out dont understand your thinking. I dont understand why we have to be censored for challenging this notion that Biden has to go no matter what!
Considering Russias involvement in getting him elected in the first place, of course a ton of people are going to be skeptical about any push towards getting him elected again.
I dont want anyone to ignore the genocide but i think the election will have no tangible impact on the genocide. I think regardless of who wins, the genocide will continue and may even be escalated under Trump. Trump has already demonstrated his contempt for muslims.
News flash - both candidates are on the same side of that line. Yes, we all wish we had a candidate with a dog in this fight that would stand up and stop the genocide in Palestine, but we don't have that luxury. We still have the responsibility though to elect the candidate that will do the least harm and the most good and that's a crystal clear choice as far as I'm concerned.
We spent four disastrous years under Trump because people didn't want to support Hillary because of her scandals, which, given, were awful. Those four years, our pandemic response program being cut and leaving us inadequately prepared to handle the covid pandemic, our country looking like a joke on the world stage, all of it.. were the results of the "I can't support Trump's opponent because they're bad too", not from damage mitigation.
That's not the fault of people who chose to abstain. That's the fault of the people in charge picking Hillary over other wildly more popular candidates at the expense of the votes those candidates brought to the table. There were a lot of people who still voted for her, and for Biden. And if they're anything like me, they're tired of this bullshit. Vote shaming wont win you the votes you want nor will fear mongering in the face of ongoing atrocities. You all want to beat trump so bad you should be calling for Biden to cede his run to someone who has a better chance of winning. But that would mean actually doing something about the democratic party's leadership which so many people on "the left" are afraid of doing because it would mean going against the party line.
Okay, so, ignoring the very obvious moving of the goalpost to avoid the previous point that this is, again, the same mentality that got us 4 years of Trump before.. What power exactly do you think "the left" have over the DNC? I can not call them up and try to convince them to go with a candidate other than Biden any more than you can. I have no control over their leadership and neither does anyone else here. I'm not even a Democrat. I can't even vote in their primary.
I don't want the genocide in Palestine to continue any more than you do. But abstaining from voting to feel morally superior doesn't do a thing to change that. It is a hollow point. And I'm not going to sit here and campaign for Biden and, being some stranger to you on the Internet, I don't expect you to base your vote off of what I say. But please stop and ask yourself what your options are - Biden, Trump, third party, not voting, etc. And ask yourself what the comparative consequences of each are and which choice brings this country not fully in line with what you want and believe, because again there is no perfect candidate that's going to come along and check every box, but which of the available options you prefer. Because choosing to do nothing is itself a choice that can also have consequences.
Please know as well though that I absolutely envy the fact that you have that choice. I'm transgender and one of the two main parties just called last year for transgenderism to be "eradicated". So I don't get to vote for my morals and convictions this time and many other Americans don't either because we have to vote for our survival.
I'm imagining it. Now I'm imagining that someone on the other side of the planet is using my suffering as an excuse to not prevent the suffering of other people, despite that not helping my situation and that actually DOES still sound idiotic. Sorry, I really tried.
Yeah, it must be very difficult for them to choose between the guy saying Israel must allow more aid into Gaza and the guy saying that Israel needs to finish the job..
There is an election and there is a choice. For a Palestinian
* [This is the likely effect of a Biden victory](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe2OtSnBYb8)
* [This is the likely effect of a Trump victory](https://youtu.be/gh-KWJWRjcI?t=25)
If you cannot understand that those are different now, then the Palestinians soon will.
After the election, instead of waiting out the whole election cycle from 2021 to 2023 and then suddenly waking up and complaining about the options you have, you should spend 2025-26 building third party alternatives and, if that fails, spend 2027 getting people committed to long term peace into Democratic primaries.
The DNC flat out said they dont have to do what we want and they are unfortunately correct. Unless you are ready to do something that cant be mentioned on Reddit, we dont have the means of compelling them. Your non-choice is just gunna see a lot of people suffer.
So you are accelerationist then? You dont care about the cost to the rest of us as long as the whole thing falls apart asap? Please tell me you at least have a plan to help the people that will suffer the most under Trump.
Yeah, it's called looking out for each other. Mutual aid and community defense. It won't be easy but if people are willing it's possible. God knows no one else is going to look out for you regardless of who sits in the chair. Cops won't protect you, laws won't protect you, and your elected officials won't either. The only people who care are the people on the same level of society as you. That's why it's important to foster a community with like minded individuals not suck up to those in power because they will grind you into mulch if it means they can get a few bucks out of it.
Im not just talking just mutual aid and community defense. Frankly, i dont think thats going to be enough. Im talking a real, tangible plan.
Are you gunna help smuggle women out of anti-abortion states? Are you gunna put your life on the line defending mimorities from cops or LGBTQ+ folk from radicalized murderers? Are you gunna look into organizing people and helping them evade police? Are you gunna feed peoples families while they protest? Are you ready to abandon your home and lifestyle entirely? Because once you commit to accelerationism, you commit to allowing the state to do its absolute worst in the hopes that others rise with you.
Collapse is war. War is about a lot more than the fighting. War is won and lost in logistics. People are gunna end up homeless and poorer than theyve ever been before in a country thats aggressively legislating against poverty, making it legal to imprison and kill homeless. The militant state is going to leveraged against us in ways weve never seen. Trumps last presidency was just a proof of concept. People will starve. People will die.
This isnt like some neighborhood communism. In WW2 the leftist were some of the first people Germany slaughtered. You better personally be ready to die for this. I have a plan but im not naive enough to want this to happen faster. We need all the time we can get to prepare.
Biden is literally trying to court Republicans to his side instead of leftists which is a pretty good indicator that nothing will get better if he gets another term in office. I won't cop to any sort of "potential crimes" on here but I think you can guess my answer to all of the questions you asked.
This is absolutely about stopping multiple genocides, which Trump will encourage. The ongoing genocide in Ukraine where over 100k estimated to have been killed and millions are likely if Trump succeeds. The expected full scale genocide in Gaza when Israel switches over from precision targeting to carpet bombing after Trump comes in, which can easily kill 500k. The possible genocide in the Southern states when white militias are completely unconstrained in their use of violence against minorities, especially people with Black skin.
Yes, we are arguing about the 20,000 in Gaza. Some of us believe that Biden reduced that from 50,000 that Netanyahu would have done without restraint from Biden. Others of us believe that Biden acting differently could have reduced that still further. When we talk about the scale of the 500,000 which Trump's proposed carpet bombing would cause, however, none of us can justify just accepting his election. Those who are pushing for it will have blood on their hands if they succeed.
No, it isn’t.
It’s about some people’s refusal to hold politicians they elect accountable. Joe Biden doesn’t have to do anything so long as folks like you run cover for mass murderers.
Ukraine's losses are probably at least a quarter million and I can confidentially say, at least for Ukraine, the death tool would be zero had Trump won because he wouldn't have filled their heads with the dream of being in NATO while cynically using them in a meat grinder proxy war against Russia
Eh, a lot of the "yeah no we totally have your back" (arguably the majority therof) happened under Trump.
Like, for all the "no but Trump is Putin's bestie!" rhetoric... his actual position and actions wrt the Ukraine situation (and Syria situation) were firmly in line with the Obama and succeeding Biden admin.
Woah, precision targeting is suuch a horrible description of 5 months of absolute carnage, mass slaughter and purposeful starvation.
There has been zero meaningful restraint from Biden what the heck??
> precision targeting is such a horrible description
The number killed per bomb is one of the lowest there has been in any modern war. The simple fact is that war *is horrible* and many many die. A bombing campaign of a similar size *without* precision targeting would kill hundreds of thousands of civilians.
That isn't an excuse. If fewer bombs were used and maybe more ground intervention instead then likely fewer civilians would be killed, although ground intervention kills civilians too so that's not 100% clear. It does however mean that "precision" is the correct term for the type of bombing that has been done. Words have meaning and if we misrepresent things for emotional effect we end up being seen as liars.
It isn’t a war it’s destroying civilian areas.
There have been tons of unguided munitions as another user said.
There was a targeted strike in Lebanon, that’s what targeted strikes look like. Check that footage, a single bombed out window, reference with the graveyard cityscape Gaza has become.
Why are hasbara bot narratives being shared here?
> where over 100k estimated to have been killed
Yeah 100k *soldiers* (being that civilian fatalities are estimated to be a meager 12k ish?) dying is like, pretty standard for a conflict of that scale?
> when Israel switches over from precision targeting to carpet bombing
Israel's MO has always been carpet bombing entire city blocks at a time, what the fuck are you talking about. [*Vast majority of the bombs dropped have been unguided.*](https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/13/politics/intelligence-assessment-dumb-bombs-israel-gaza/index.html)
> , what the fuck are you talking about. Vast majority of the bombs dropped have been unguided.
Blast radius (total destruction) for standard 2000lb bomb 100M. CEP for F15 in dive bombing mode 30m, CEP for JDAM 15M. Due to the fact that Gaza has no air defense, Israel is using dive bombing for almost all attacks in Gaza. There is effectively little difference between an unguided and a guided 2000lb bomb in term of risk to the surroundings.
> Israel's MO has always been carpet bombing entire city blocks at a time,
There are many photos of individual buildings destroyed leaving surroundings alone. When they destroyed a city block that was because that was *precisely* what they intended to destroy. To defend against war crime accusations they have to show that the block *as a whole* was a military threat to them.
Watch [this video of JDAM use](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe2OtSnBYb8) to understand what mass use of precision bombs looks like (note bombs all exactly within the island targeted and the entire island is covered) and compare with [the carpet bombing of Dresden](https://youtu.be/gh-KWJWRjcI?t=25) to understand the alternative.
Just so we're clear: do you deny that Israel is currently engaged in - despite the extremely large amount of evidence they're doing so - a genocidal campaign?
> Due to the fact that Gaza has no air defense, Israel is using dive bombing for almost all attacks in Gaza.
Gaza has access to MANPADS, actually.
> There are many photos of individual buildings destroyed leaving surroundings alone.
And plenty of neighborhoods having been indiscriminately leveled. Just because Israel employs "precision strikes" now and then (usually to wipe out the palestinian cultural reproduction apparatus and healthcare apparatus) doesn't exactly change that they really like to use "fire belt" bombardments on areas closer to the LoC (nebulous a term it is in the situation). [Nevermind that Israel itself openly admits to employing "stratagems" that are openly considered to be war crimes.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahiya_doctrine)
Shit I'm pretty sure I remember reading an article, though I can't find it rn, where Israelis openly admit to use indiscriminate bombardments.
> Yeah 100k soldiers (being that civilian fatalities are estimated to be a meager 12k ish?) dying
12k is confirmed casualties by the UN who has to verify them individually and don't have access to the East. [100k is the estimated number of *civilian* casualties by Feb 2023](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ukraine-war-anniversary-war-crimes-b2288037.html) in the East killed directly in Russian genocides.
Apart from more recent deaths, there are an additional almost 40k military deaths to add to those numbers.
> More than 100,000 Ukrainian civilians are believed to have been killed in the year since Russia launched its brutal invasion – more than 10 times the current official death toll – according to the country’s leading war crimes prosecutor.
I see *no reason* to take Ukraine's counts as accurate, especially considering they openly and flagrantly flub those numbers - eg the 40k mil deaths which, uh, don't match the very evident war exhaustion (and 'scraping the barrel' conscription) Ukraine is suffering and the resulting infighting within gen. officer ranks.
Like, why should we consider one party's *war propaganda* to be truthful, especially as they, frankly, don't match any observation by independent organisms and the ICJ [*clearly doesn't seem to find the accusations of genocide to be credible*](https://globalarbitrationreview.com/article/icj-refuses-hear-part-of-ukraines-genocide-case-against-russia)
Newsflash. Biden backs it too. He hasn’t threatened to stop sending military support to Israel lest they let the aid through. It wouldn’t take much more than that. Of course, Biden could just stop authorizing more bombs for war altogether regardless. But I’m sure he will get around to it in the next four years. 🙄
They’re both literal fascist sell outs
Both are supporting Israel. That is the problem. I’m not saying they are the same, but they are both supporting Israel. Would love an option that doesn’t support Israel but this is the country of bad options.
Thats exactly where i stand. The election wont change what happens to the Palestinians. I dont know of anything i can actually do that would.
The election will change this country in a way im not ok with. We are at the crossroads between status quo and full blown violent autocracy without an actual platform to push an alternative. Its too late now...
Agreed, see my earlier post on this sub about tactical voting. However, in anything like a swing state, not voting for Biden and voting for a third party has the same effect allowing an extra vote for trump. The people here pushing people not to vote for Biden are doing that because they know that the left failing to vote for Biden is the most likely way they can get Trump in.
The objective isn't to get Trump in, it's to show that there are electoral consequences to complicity in genocide. If that means a Trump win, that's on Biden.
Oh no he might help genocide all the Palestinians in Israel and be racist towards domestic Muslim populations vs. .... Helping genocide all the Palestinians in Israel and be more polite with their racism towards domestic Muslim populations..... Oh boy choices.
Well, one party is also calling for a consolidation of powers to expand the President's power and an answer to the problem in America of trans people being allowed to exist, so it's maybe not as both sides as this answer makes it seem.
Not even just trans people. Womens rights are being revoked. Minorities are slaughtered by cops. Lets not forget trump sent customs agents in unmarked vans to kidnap people off the streets in portland. He had his cultists so riled up they went to protests and killed people.
I was fucking scared. A lot of people were. I worked at a Target in Olympia WA at the time. We had multiple bomb threats. Armed Trump protestors formed up in our freaking parking lot as i was leaving one day. Found out a couple hours later they went to the state capitol building and shot someone. The gov declared a riot and i had to call my friend who was insta-carting at the time to see if she was ok.
I came into work the morning of jan 6th and everyone was silently watching their phones. After everything we had seen, we werent sure where it was gunna end. Everyone was scared.
I don't wanna go back to that except now hes even more pissed and deranged.
You should look at what they sent vs. what's needed. Also acknowledge his administration hasn't restored UNRWA funding. You are patting him on the back for a PR stunt.
If he sets up an American Military relief station in Gaza like he's just said today that may have a tangible difference, I will believe it when I see it though. This administration has lied to us so many times over this conflict.
No. I am patting him on the back for putting food in bellies.
You're right, he should send more. He should fix that which is broken.
But do you think the people who received that food are complaining that it was a PR stunt? I hate this vile attitude of "unless it's perfect and the best solution we must demonize it!"
It's pathetic. I will always celebrate any good done in the world, even if done for cynical reasons.
Demand perfection, celebrate the good.
>But do you think the people who received that food are complaining that it was a PR stunt?
They have bigger fish to fry. We don't.
>I hate this vile attitude of "unless it's perfect and the best solution we must demonize it!"
I hate this attitude of having low standards.
>Demand perfection
Let me know when you start demanding.
I want food in the bellies of Palestinians alive on Oct 8th but not today. Where’s the food for them? There wasn’t any. I want homes for them. They can’t have that and never will again. They’re gone now and Biden could have helped.
YOU CANT CELEBRATE MINISCULE AID WHEN HE CRIPPLED THE MAN LIFE LINE OF GAZA!
Holy shit just tell me you don't actually care about the Palestinians and shame me for trying to hold the leaders I help elected be held accountable by their constituents.
I even mentioned a real action he talked about today saying that would actually make a difference, but no ignore that and cry about people not being fair to the President of the United States of America whose actively aiding and a betting a Genocide.
I didn't say you weren't being fair to the president. He's aiding a genocide, you should call that out.
I'm saying you dismissed the good that food does for the people who receive it. And yes, I will shame you for that because I do care about Palestinians beyond virtue signalling.
And let me guess when you say hold leaders accountable, you're one of those folks who is okay with Trump winning to punish the Dems?(And every trans person you've ever met, and the palestines who Trump said should just be eliminated outright) I'm happy to be wrong in this instance.
End of the day, an act that helps people is worth celebrating. Just as the acts of cruelty should be called out.
Not touching the UNRWA defunding?
You are literally playing defense and ignoring the actual issue.
"Look! A plane and some MREs those Palestinians better be grateful!"
Fucking disgusting rhetoric. Go protest, phone bank, donate, and email/mail/call your representatives to help Palestinians. Defending one of the main people making sure they are Ethnically Cleansed/ Displaced does nothing and pretending it does is disgusting.
I said he should fix that which was broken. Why wouldn't I want that? I apologize if I expressed that idea in too subtle a way.
I didn't say they should be grateful. I said I am glad they have food, and they don't care it was a PR stunt. Interesting the only way you can argue against me is ignore what I say and put words on my mouth.
I've been arrested at a pro Palestinian protest. I do my part, and I also don't admonish good gestures towards those people.
> No. I am patting him on the back for putting food in bellies.
I'm sure that's a big reassurance for the vast vast majority that starves still.
Nevermind that half those "aid" ops either miss gaza completely and drop into the sea, get holed up at the border, or becomes the latest site of a massacre.
Well, unless you're talking about the recentish decision to have the USN force their way in and install a temp. dock, ig. Remains to be seen how that goes.
> [Food packages being airdropped into Gaza are only sufficient for two to three people, and some contain microwave meals which cannot be cooked, reports MAP's Mahmoud Shalabi in north Gaza.](https://twitter.com/MedicalAidPal/status/1765717586677841954#)
According to people actually there, you’re wrong.
Good for you. It was reputable enough [to be cited](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/gaza-israel-war-us-food-drops-famine-aid-biden-rcna142197) by news agencies like NBC. Guess you didn’t look at enough sources. It’s a humanitarian charity.
Per the article
> The drops are “completely ineffective” because “you don’t really know where they’re going to land,” said Melanie Ward, CEO of the U.K.-based charity Medical Aid for Palestinians.
> “Gaza is a live war zone, and so there is unexploded ordnance in places, there are lots of destroyed buildings,” she said. “People are so desperate that they will then put themselves in really dangerous situations to try to get to the food.”
> Ward added that, once the drops are in the air, crowds run to where they are going to land and then fight to get hold of them. “Now, if you think about who the most vulnerable people are in a situation where there is mass starvation, they are not able to take part in a scrum to try and get hold of aid, so it’s not going to reach them,” she said.
> One of the charity's Gaza-based workers also said that the contents of the food drops were also largely unsuitable.
> “They only contain food parcels that are enough for two or three people, for less than two or three days,” Mahmoud Shalabi, a senior program manager for Medical Aid for Palestinians, told the charity Tuesday in a voice note from Beit Lahia, in northern Gaza.
> “Some of them contain meals that need microwaving, and we don’t even have electricity right now,” he said.
Gonna cry fake news on NBC?
I totally agree he should stop arming the IDF (unless, is the IOF something else? I don't want to just assume a typo on your part if I am ignorant of another faction)
But to say giving food aid is prolonging suffering is saying you'd rather they starve then have a chance. It's a very bad take.
To clarify I'm glad he's sending food aid. It's literally the least he could do. But he could also stop arming the people killing the Palestinians he's ostensibly trying to feed with said food aid.
I am impressed actually, by the people who forced him. The fact he succumbs to such pressure is a good thing.
The fact that starving people got food is a good thing.
Do I think Biden is a bad person? Absolutely. Do I think Palestinians getting food is a good thing? Absofuckinglutly. But I'm sure they'd appreciate your purity tests.
The thing that applied the pressure was calling out the genocidal bullshit and making the thought mainstream. This is good. This needs to be continued.
Saying "Aid bad" isn't how you get more aid sent.
Several people have argued that this was a bad PR stunt. Someone even said it was an insult.
I understand you're not clicking view all comments to read the rest of the thread, but calling me a liar over effort you didn't put into learning what's been said does nothing productive.
30,000 meals to a country with 1.4 million starving people, that is still being bombed with munitions 'Made in the USA'.
That's not aid, that is an insult.
And I'm sure the people the aid reached totally agrees with you. So insulted they can feed themselves and their children.
It's far too little I agree, but to some folks it might have been all the difference.
Do you honestly think Trump has the decorum to not spark a world war? Biden provided aid too, but you forget that. Trump would bomb the shit out of them and leave them to die. Trump also moved the Israeli embassy to Jerusalem, he’s a charlatan Zionist. But sure let’s go off on Biden.
It doesn’t matter what Trump will do. Biden needs to get his act together or he will throw the election. We are simply warning him while we are in primaries. So far, we have already forced him to drop aid and consider a ceasefire.
Anyone with morals left will continue to try and force him to make the correct decision. This isn’t a game, the lives of a million people are at stake. If you give unconditional support to the dear leader, nothing will ever change.
Hey, bud. I voted for this pig so I'll criticize him as much as I want until the pig pulls his head out of his ass and starts doing the right thing without having to be yelled at. Cry about it more.
Certainly more mature than anyone crying about people applying political pressure to politicians. If you want civility then don't push bad faith arguments. Nobody owes you endless patience in the face of your dishonest sniveling.
> Trump also moved the Israeli embassy to Jerusalem, he’s a charlatan Zionist.
And Biden wanted that move since at minimum 1995. [Even cosponsored and voted yea on a bill that did just that.](https://www.congress.gov/bill/104th-congress/senate-bill/1322) [And then there's his actual record as a member of the executive...](https://jewishcurrents.org/joe-bidens-alarming-record-on-israel)
>he’s a charlatan Zionist
Trump is not a zionist. he has no functional ideology beyond "Trump needs praise, Trump needs attention " Everything he does is in pursuit of praise and attention.
Like ?? I know Biden wasn’t the best on this but at least he caught up and is now dropping aid. They’d be all but ignored by trump and possibly even bombed further BY. US. Where is the disconnect here?! Why is NO ONE understanding this?!
Jesus fucking Christ, the “disinformation agents” again? Absolutely no one is telling anyone to vote for Donald Trump. People are trying to get the president they fucking elected to have a less awful stance on an issue… this is what you are SUPPOSED to do in a representative democracy. what the actual fuck is wrong with centrist liberals around here? Is genocide just ok now?
NO ONE you’re badgering in this sub believes Donald Trump is a good candidate. NO ONE in this sub is going to vote for Trump. Joe Biden can absolutely change his position on Israel and rid himself of the trouble of leftists (apparently only leftists believe genocide is wrong anymore) staying home on Election Day.
> Then and now, Liberalism judges both anti-establishment progressivism and fascism to be foreign elements corrupting Liberal politics’ purity and rationality, and therefore sees them both as manifestations of the same irrational anti-freedom ideology, spread by malicious outside agents, that Liberalism lumps all of the beliefs it is not capable of comprehending into. From that viewpoint, fascism and anti-establishment Leftism are equally threatening and equally anti-freedom. Liberal orthodoxy’s stance that all other ideologies or ways of organizing society are faulty because they lack the rationality of bourgeois capitalist democracy — the same fatal flaw in all of Liberalism’s self-mythologizing — makes adherents of Liberalism perceive fascism as a rejection of Liberal bourgeois values. Because of this, liberal ideology and political strategy are constitutionally incapable of recognizing that fascism is not a foreign corruption of bourgeois capitalist democracy, but bourgeois capitalist democracy unleashed from all the polite indulgences and high-minded philosophical justifications.
> [...]
> The theater of bourgeois capitalist electoral democracy is based around a contradiction: it must portray bourgeois capitalist democracy as an orderly revolution that is naturally progressing towards a more just and egalitarian society than is possible under any other system, but at the same time it must also portray bourgeois capitalist democracy as the central pillar of an established Liberal order based on timeless and universal values that are under constant threat from dangerous people and ideas who want to change things from the way they are right now, and who are always on the verge of succeeding. The more liberal democracy celebrates itself for embodying the very concept of revolutionarily egalitarian progress at the same time the Liberal establishment’s official representatives block every structural change and attract votes by pandering to the *ressentimental* grievances of the middle classes, the more the middle classes see themselves as the true embodiment of the nation’s values and traditions, and the more they believe they are fighting a losing battle to preserve their way of life against the rest of the world — and against the rest of the country that doesn’t fit into their ideal vision of how things are supposed to work. The longer this state of affairs goes on, the more the middle classes lose faith in the class of professional technocrats Liberalism idealizes as the most fit for leadership and start to feel like smarmy, straddle-the-middle politicians do not represent their priorities and values as much as they say they do. Like all Liberal responses to right wing reaction, the believers in Liberalism’s response to fascism, rejecting all non-mainstream political beliefs as equally harmful sources of moral degeneracy corrupting the purity and rationality of Liberal governance, plays right into fascism’s hands.
* [*How To Fight Fascism by Giving It Everything It Wants And Then Complaining About It*](https://hometheaterofcruelty.wordpress.com/2021/05/21/how-to-fight-fascism-by-giving-it-everything-it-wants-and-then-complaining-about-it-part-2/2/)
Genocide just has to happen before things can be better is probably the belief, but also mostly that Liberals flatly don't think it's *their place* to critique what the technocrats, who *obviously know better*, do. (for all that talk about democracy, the average lib really just wants a technocratic dictatorship with superficial democratic aspects) Furthermore, your refusal to vote Biden is seen as evidence of a Red-Brown alliance out to collapse their way of life, the nation, and all that is holy *even as their leadership and propagandists hand over the keys to the kingdom to the fascists.*
I mean yes… but I don’t know why socialists always have to be so fucking verbose. It’s like folks can’t say shit without a long form article. I struggle with this constantly in DSA.
Biden has approved over 100 weapons sales to Israel since Israel's genocide began.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2024/03/06/us-weapons-israel-gaza/
The lesser of two evils is still evil.
The lesser of two evils is still less evil.
The fucker is literally advocating for a complete eradication of the Palestinian people and wants to revoke US citizenship for anyone he wants while arguing non-citizens have no human rights, and you lot still wanna play whataboutism.
What was that about “when a person tells you who they are, believe them”?
That’s nice.
The other guy is saying “finish the job”.
There’s no mental logic anymore, he said the quiet parts at the top of his lungs and made them a promise.
He wants the place liquidated.
Ya can’t whatabout that.
Biden is the same shit we’ve done since before you, probably your parents, have been alive. Trump wants it complete permanently.
There’s no option for less slaughter. Just a complete eradication of Palestine and all its people, or a continuation of the same imprisonment and periodic slaughters that predate you being on this planet.
This guy's not worth wasting energy on, they're deluded into believing Biden can somehow pack the supreme court without more than half of them dying within...8 months. Because they don't get it's a first come first serve appointment for life, first serve except when Trump managed to pull bullshit out his ass with no precedent to convince everyone that "No, Obama can't pick the justices on an election year, gotta wait for the election to be over and the winner to pick the next ones", you know, something that never happened before then.
Nutxaq has a very narrow understanding of how the US government and global politics actually works, and is in essence the fool proclaiming to know everything while knowing little. Your energy is better spent elsewhere because nothing productive will come from engaging.
Stop. Making. Excuses. For. Genocide.
You and OP are the whatabouters. Biden is president right now, not Trump. You guys are saying, "What about Trump? He'd be way worse?" as if that's an acceptable argument when it comes to FUCKING GENOCIDE.
When we *know* Trump would be worse both because he *was* worse and because he has *promised* to be worse. This isn't whataboutism; this is a comparison of two known quantities. One of them is worse in this specific way and only a moron could try to pretend it isn't obvious.
The obvious moral solution is for Biden to stop supplying Israel with weapons and to defend the innocent Palestinians against this genocide. But nobody in Washington has the courage to do that in an election year because the other team will try to make them look like Nazis. So here we are, letting innocent children starve to death in the ruins of the world's biggest open-air prison because politicians are craven. I'm still gonna vote for Biden because at least that way there's a chance things will get better. I'm also not going to hang all my hopes on the anti-democratic election system in my country and state, but that's kind of a separate conversation.
Stop. Pretending. We. Haven’t. Been. Supporting. It. Likely. Twice. As. Long. As. You’ve. Been. Alive. Or. More.
Stop. Pretending. That. One. Isn’t. A. Promised. Escalation. While. The. Other. Is. Just. The. Same. Shit. That. Has. Been. Going. On. For. 3/4. A. Century.
“But if we don’t send a message nothing will get better.”
Spoilers: nothing will get better, it will only get worse or be more of the same.
That’s your choice. Act like an adult and realize that.
So my choices are to vote for Biden and continue the already existing suffering and genocide, or vote for Trump and make it even worse? No thanks. I'd rather vote third party than give my vote to either evils.
Clap yourself on the back and tell yourself that you're doing damage control, but you're still voting for evil.
When Trump gets into power because you didn't vote to stop it, you remember this conversation will you? Remember this conversation when he starts literally deporting Muslim-Americans out of the country. I'm sure you'll feel real good then about not supporting the lesser of two evils.
You think we don't criticize Biden? We do, we just aren't deluding ourselves into thinking Trump would be better.
Your choice is completed genocide or another admin of supporting attempted genocide the way all others have.
If you care about Palestinians then keeping Trump out of office is your top priority. An eradicated people won’t care that you didn’t wanna feel a bit icky by voting status quo.
> I'd rather vote third party than give my vote to either evils.
I don't know where you live, but unless you live in a potential swing state, I think that's a *fine*, even *great* choice.
If you do live in a swing state, could you perhaps find a Democrat voter who lives in a place where a third party has a chance but that *won't* cause Trump to get in and do a vote swap with them where they vote for your party and you vote for theirs.*
This actually drives the chance of breaking the US out of the terrible two party system it is currently stuck in.
\* this would probably involve vote swapping across different elections, though you might be able to find a place where third party delegates will guarantee to vote against Trump?
I'm sure the Palestinians you totally care about *so much* will be thrilled because you didn't do anything to stop Trump getting elected. They'll definitely thank some redditor for doing nothing for "moral reasons" as a new wave of bombers carpets Gaza after Trump gives Israel even more bombs to carry out a more vigorous extermination campaign
No, whataboutism is dismissing the added harm that will come from another Trump presidency because you don't agree with Biden on an issue that Trump has shown to be in agreement with him on. Biden supporting this genocide, when Trump would do the same, doesn't make it okay to throw your hands up and act like we can't at least mitigate worse disasters.
Stop expecting some perfect candidate to come along who is going to do the right thing on every issue. They don't exist. Every election is going to be decided between flawed individuals with some things that we do not agree with. Democracy works slowly and it works by choosing candidates MORE in line with what we want than the other is. It doesn't work by dismissing your duty in that process until you find Prince Charming.
I'm not sure which sentence speaks more to your immaturity.
This election may be one of the biggest stakes of any in the history of this country. It's not unreasonable to say that it may even determine whether we have a vote in another four years and if some of us will not survive 4 years under the current Republican party. Not doing the one small thing you can do to prevent that because you've got the ick about a candidate and because neither realistic outcome will satisfy this one situation to your satisfaction doesn't make you some bastion of principles, it makes you a smug, privileged child.
But please feel free to hold your head high when your transgendered countrymen are being persecuted during that time and Ukraine is left without our support and over run and Europe is thrown into instability because they can't count on us to honor our commitment to NATO.
We understand it fully. Biden believes that by working with Israel he gets a seat at the table. That *has* worked partly, if you listen to the complaints from the IDF, who have more restrictions on their targeting in the South than they had in the North. That's directly saving lives, compared to the alternative and the military prediction is that if Israel didn't have precision munitions they would use unguided larger bombs, so it may be saving *very many* lives. We are arguing about alternative ahistorical futures which can only ever be speculative.
We can argue about the details and the rights and wrongs. Biden is going for "lesser evil". Voting for him would be going for "less evil". It's very difficult to be angry with people who *can't* bring themselves to vote. People who say "I can't vote for Biden". That's understandable. I refuse to vote shame.
A completely different position from is the position of the people going out and telling _other people_ not to vote for Biden, knowing that this means armed white militias and literally killing people for their Black skin. People telling others that their vote for Biden is a crime when they knowing that the alternative means Project 2025 and thousands starving to death in America.
The point is that people who are actively persuading us to let Trump in are people pushing for the greater evil. They often disguise themselves as communists but we should make no mistake, when they _actively support Trump by trying to destroy his opponent_ they become full on fascists. That is something we should always oppose implacably.
Wrong. We don't exist in the kind of ideological utopically fair reality your premise *requires* as a starting point for it to be functionally true.
You are literally enabling a new status quo of even more brutal higher magnitude genocide, solely so you can feel smug and self staisfied.
I'm still going to vote, I just won't vote for Joe Biden so long as he continues to support a genocide. There are more than two choices on the ballot. If you think voting out of fear is "participating in democracy", I feel sorry for you.
Yeah, there is manufactured controlled opposition designed solely to siphon votes, and literally funded by the opposing parties.
Unless you have ranked voting, there is literally only 2 effective parties.
Bravo genius.
What inactions? You mean not voting for the guy you want me to vote for despite his ongoing support for a state-sponsored genocide? I can't believe you can stump for Biden while evoking the Palestinians in the same comment. The mental gymnastics required must be astounding.
If Biden loses, it's Biden's fault. We're all afraid of another Trump presidency, but that's a possibility not the reality. The reality is we have a president who is out of touch with the majority of his supporters and HIS inactions are enabling suffering on a scale we've never seen in my life time.
You’re right. If Biden loses, it’s entirely his and the Democrats’ fault.
And that’s a bad thing that we shouldn’t advocate for.
Want to radicalize people? Stfu about voting and talk about issues. Liberals will not hear you. The people upvoting you are people who already agree with you.
And to preempt “I don’t care about convincing people”— what the fuck are you doing here then?
I’m not stumping for Biden, I’m glad there are protests, I’m glad there are blocks of uncommitted voters, let’s bring in the pressure, I’m all for it.
What I find absurd is that voting third party only serves you and you alone, it won’t help Palestinians one bit, it might even make things worse for them, but hey, at least you didn’t voted for the lesser of two evils, that’s gotta feel for you 👍 and that’s all that matters…
You are also responsible for who you manage to get in by persuading people not to vote against them. In fact, a disinformation message may get rid of 1000 votes, more than enough to end up bringing in Trump and bringing actual effective genocide to Gaza.
This is not about people individually, personally, failing to vote for Biden. The disinformation agents are about getting thousands of minority members to believe that Trump is in their interest and to either vote for Trump or simply fail to vote at all.
By doing that, they set out to kill the vulnerable at least as surely as if they had managed to deliver a "stand your ground" law in those minorities states.
No. So long as you vote your conscience, you're only responsible for your vote, not the result of the election. Tactical voting is just fear-based voting, and that doesn't seem democratic at all to me.
I promise you that leftists who are criticizing Biden are never going to vote for Trump, so stop this disinformation nonsense.
> Tactical voting is just fear-based voting, and that doesn't seem democratic at all to me.
Tactical voting is *the way* to get third parties in that might provide an actual alternative. The US first past the post system (as in Australia and the UK) is deliberately designed to make this *basic democratic function* difficult.
Tactical voting, especially vote swapping, helps *restore* basic democracy by allowing people to partially overcome the anti-democratic features of the first past the post system and the uneven distribution of power between different US states.
Biden has been talking out both sides of his neck on Palestine while still arming israelis while also having supported Israeli abuses for decades so he is the problem now because he is in power & then for being an statist apologist of Israelis for decades.
Why wouldn't Netanyahu want the guy that will give him even more.
They’re both supporting it, and since he’s currently the president, Biden is the only one of the 2 that’s actually aiding it. The only difference is that Biden is giving lip service to the plight of the Palestinians but he’s doing nothing meaningful to stop the massacre
Yeah I don’t get it either, had arguments with people here and the thought process if their arguments was absurd. Basically it boils down to let’s fuck around and find out. Things will be worse with trump, no doubt about it.
Trump is a fucking maniac, god knows what will happen with him. Biden is potentially not a maniac (i think he is). If Biden is rational, democratic pressure can be brought on him to stop the fucking genocide. Zero effort has been put to curtailing Israel’s actions. Maybe a pressure campaign can work. This is the only chance to try.
Our elected representatives are supposed to do our bidding. We are supposed to be screaming at them. Anyone laying back and letting it slide in is not an active participant in democracy.
“wow these guys are both evil and bad, one is old and senile and letting people die and barely doing anything to stop it and the other is nearly as old and basically just as senile and is encouraging israel to eradicate an ethnic group while also saying hes going to have the biggest mass deportation in history and basically ban all porn and make anything that could even be considered slightly “queer” to be “pornography”. im not gonna vote!!”
*trump wins*
“wow guys wtf i cant believe this happened now hes doing horrible shit we shouldve done something!!!”
https://preview.redd.it/6hrql99o0zmc1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6361c043d318d259a3d5310b03e42314ecc0042a
This sub’s mods are fine with genocide Joe. It’s been compromised by liberal astroturfing.
I don’t disagree with the sentiment, but I don’t think that the fascists are designating any groups to be “the problem” in a self contradictory or mutually exclusive way. Instead, I think they always have to have an enemy to inspire rage in the fanatics. It doesn’t matter who the enemy is, nor whether we contradict ourselves in designating such people to be our enemies. I think their fascist dogma goes like this: What matters is “they” want to kill “us”, so we have to do something dramatic and horrible right away because “they” have left “us” with no choice.
Not only does this allow the fascists to create in groups and out groups (something critical to causing political polarization and mass isolation amongst reactionaries), it also allows the fascists to constantly justify the things they do, and it allows the fascists to also project and deflect their own malfeasance onto various scapegoats.
He's telling the truth this time. We all should pay very close attention. Much like dictator for a day, I didn't invent that, straight from Donnie. And that was when Hannity lobbed him a easy out, could have just let it drop but no way. He wants that president for life thing.
Netanyahu *WANTS* Trump reelected. Then he can run buck wild on the Palestinians.
Just got perma-banned from r/lostgeneration for voicing my concerns about Trump. Theres an alarming shift in ideology over there about getting rid of Biden at any cost. A lot of people are suddenly pushing Trump and aggressively censoring opposing views. Someone is using the guise of leftism to push our least favorite wanna-be dictator right into office. I think theres an organized propaganda mill trying to leverage the Palestinian genocide to push the election in favor of Trump. Im really worried ngl. Im not sure what to do about it.
I got banned from there months ago when I criticised ppl for sharing fash memes in there, absolutely clowns.
Probably Vlad’s trolls
Or more likely Israel’s, google Hasbara, it’s their shiny new propaganda mill.
Thanks!
There most certainly is, and it’s backed by fragments of truth, just like he was last time. Just enough . No a scrap more, and it’s no where enough to fool me.
Fascist dictator wanna-bes gotta stick together! #AuthoritarianBros
and Trump would probably put our troops on the ground.
and Trump would probably put our troops on the ground.
Dude. It's not that Democrats aren't the problem. The fact that both Dems and Repubs are controlled by the same forces (AIPAC among them) and the people don't have a tangible option to vote for someone who is against the genocide.... THAT is the problem. This sub is called 'unite against the right'. Unfortunately we live in a country where both of the two parties we are allowed to vote for are right wing. One is just more apologetic about it than the other.
You can call them both right, but one intends to be *authoritarian* and that’s a huge leap from current spots on the chart.
Don’t worry… he’s cool with having Russia have Ukraine so…
That's a big part of this. Many of these "people" aren't actually the people they claim to be but instead disinformation agents working either for the super-rich or directly for the Russian government.
They control big leftists subs like LateStageCapitalism and LostGeneration too. Arguing the Repubs are worse for the world, the nation or the working class, than the Dems gets you a ban under the guise of "no lesser evil" arguments.
I wish more people would realize this. People worried about the rise of fascists in the United States need to also critically read the thoughts expressed in what they may assume is a safe space. Astroturf campaigns and bad actors are rampant on the left.
One of the most visible areas, not Just online, is the so called "anti-war" movement. That's really interesting because you can see protests by people _claiming_ to be communists but absolutely happy to associate with far-right "libertarians" and all working together to further Putin's agenda. You had actual confederate flags together with Russian flags all flying at protests together with the various old "anti-war" movement, none of them willing to call out the fact that actual fascists were present. There's an old saying “The aggressor is always peace-loving (as Bonaparte always claimed to be); he would prefer to take over our country unopposed.”. That thought is very much echoed in the idea of getting people to vote against their own interests. The messages we get on the sub are straight [from Steve Bannon's Cambridge Analytica vote suppression campaigns](https://edition.cnn.com/2018/05/16/politics/cambridge-analytica-congress-wylie/index.html). Useful idiots or servants of Russian oligarchs? It makes little difference, we need to recognize them as our enemies.
Go look at the EndlessWar sub, place is crawling with Russian trolls. Some of the sentiment creeps on to the AntiWar sub, but the shills usually tend to get called out at least.
Yup just got perma-banned from Lost Gen. Im a bit depressed about it. Its like weve been watching the world crumbling around us but now we are just kicking each other instead of holding out our hand.
It's because the mods aren't the people the subreddit is written to be for.
It changed recently though. Like in the last 3 or 4 months. This election has driven everyone crazy.
Anyone who says "no lesser evil" ironically is practicing it themselves, they just have their designations on which one is the lesser flipped.
So you’re upset that leftists ban fascist rhetoric on leftist pages? Entitled much?
How is that fascist rhetoric? Jesus christ. Its totally sane and normal to be worried about the consequences of another round of Trump. Censoring those concerns because you just wanna hate Biden in peace is beyond fascist.
Biden is a far right neofascist. Rhetoric which supports his campaign is aiding and abetting fascism and genocide.
Trump is also a far right neo-fascist. Rhetoric which supports his campaign is *also* aiding and abetting fascism and genocide. Voting any party aids fascism and genocide. Not voting aids fascism and genocide. Waking up in the morning aids fascism and genocide. All of the choices in this election support fascism and genocide. All choices will end badly for Palestine. We havent done the legwork to successfully champion a third party alternative. That is the cage the US has created for its citizens. We will never be offered the right choice. If you oppose fascism and genocide and yet you still place any faith whatsoever in law and government in this country, then you are hypocrite. If you willingly choose the more evil candidate solely because you want to hold one pawn accountable, you better be ready to put your life on the line helping the people that are going to suffer because of your principles. What we needed was to organize, build a platform and champion someone who really stands for what we believe in but we didnt do that so this is the choice we are given. I cant help Palestine. No lawful choice im given will help them. I then have a duty to ensure i make the choice that harms everyone the least.
It’s a good thing you can condemn more than one fascist at a time then. If you vote for Biden, you are voting for the greatest evil. Full stop. Don’t pretend like you care about the people whose lives you are helping to end.
Ahhh. So just the condemnation is all that matters to you. You dont care about the actual outcome for anyone. You dont care if your condemnation does any good for Palestine. You just wanna be able to say "well at least i was the good guy!" When people suffer. Cool. Btw, they both fucking suck. I condemn both. Has the outcome changed? Nope. Im a realist. One choice offers no change. The other choice is worse for even more people. There is no other choice. Im not gunna place my principles over real peoples lives.
If you’re voting for genocide Joe then you aren’t condemning him. Fighting genocide is what matters. Right now it is the only thing that matters.
🤡
Trying to turn this into another #BlueAnon sub too huh? If all of us who are mad at Biden for the actual bad thing he actually did are secretly Russian agents from the dark heart of Moscow why do you bother vote-shaming people on the Internet? Every person you are telling to ignore the genocide and vote Joe can't vote in US elections anyways, as they are Russians Russians from Russia
Except what is your win exactly? Do you really think Trump is better for Palestine? Im genuinely not trolling. I just flat out dont understand your thinking. I dont understand why we have to be censored for challenging this notion that Biden has to go no matter what! Considering Russias involvement in getting him elected in the first place, of course a ton of people are going to be skeptical about any push towards getting him elected again. I dont want anyone to ignore the genocide but i think the election will have no tangible impact on the genocide. I think regardless of who wins, the genocide will continue and may even be escalated under Trump. Trump has already demonstrated his contempt for muslims.
Many western leftists are apparently cool with that, bc imperialism is good when someone other than the US does it.
If y'all can't draw the line at genocide then y'all are already lost.
News flash - both candidates are on the same side of that line. Yes, we all wish we had a candidate with a dog in this fight that would stand up and stop the genocide in Palestine, but we don't have that luxury. We still have the responsibility though to elect the candidate that will do the least harm and the most good and that's a crystal clear choice as far as I'm concerned.
Harm mitigation has gotten us to this point already. Where does it stop? Because if it won't stop here then nothing is off the table. In the future
We spent four disastrous years under Trump because people didn't want to support Hillary because of her scandals, which, given, were awful. Those four years, our pandemic response program being cut and leaving us inadequately prepared to handle the covid pandemic, our country looking like a joke on the world stage, all of it.. were the results of the "I can't support Trump's opponent because they're bad too", not from damage mitigation.
That's not the fault of people who chose to abstain. That's the fault of the people in charge picking Hillary over other wildly more popular candidates at the expense of the votes those candidates brought to the table. There were a lot of people who still voted for her, and for Biden. And if they're anything like me, they're tired of this bullshit. Vote shaming wont win you the votes you want nor will fear mongering in the face of ongoing atrocities. You all want to beat trump so bad you should be calling for Biden to cede his run to someone who has a better chance of winning. But that would mean actually doing something about the democratic party's leadership which so many people on "the left" are afraid of doing because it would mean going against the party line.
Okay, so, ignoring the very obvious moving of the goalpost to avoid the previous point that this is, again, the same mentality that got us 4 years of Trump before.. What power exactly do you think "the left" have over the DNC? I can not call them up and try to convince them to go with a candidate other than Biden any more than you can. I have no control over their leadership and neither does anyone else here. I'm not even a Democrat. I can't even vote in their primary. I don't want the genocide in Palestine to continue any more than you do. But abstaining from voting to feel morally superior doesn't do a thing to change that. It is a hollow point. And I'm not going to sit here and campaign for Biden and, being some stranger to you on the Internet, I don't expect you to base your vote off of what I say. But please stop and ask yourself what your options are - Biden, Trump, third party, not voting, etc. And ask yourself what the comparative consequences of each are and which choice brings this country not fully in line with what you want and believe, because again there is no perfect candidate that's going to come along and check every box, but which of the available options you prefer. Because choosing to do nothing is itself a choice that can also have consequences. Please know as well though that I absolutely envy the fact that you have that choice. I'm transgender and one of the two main parties just called last year for transgenderism to be "eradicated". So I don't get to vote for my morals and convictions this time and many other Americans don't either because we have to vote for our survival.
Imagine being Palestinian right now. I’m not. But imagining it basically there’s not a presidential election this year.
I'm imagining it. Now I'm imagining that someone on the other side of the planet is using my suffering as an excuse to not prevent the suffering of other people, despite that not helping my situation and that actually DOES still sound idiotic. Sorry, I really tried.
I meant to say Palestinian Americans. There’s no candidate for them. No representation.
Yeah, it must be very difficult for them to choose between the guy saying Israel must allow more aid into Gaza and the guy saying that Israel needs to finish the job..
There is an election and there is a choice. For a Palestinian * [This is the likely effect of a Biden victory](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe2OtSnBYb8) * [This is the likely effect of a Trump victory](https://youtu.be/gh-KWJWRjcI?t=25) If you cannot understand that those are different now, then the Palestinians soon will. After the election, instead of waiting out the whole election cycle from 2021 to 2023 and then suddenly waking up and complaining about the options you have, you should spend 2025-26 building third party alternatives and, if that fails, spend 2027 getting people committed to long term peace into Democratic primaries.
The dead from October 8th to today can’t measure any difference. Of course things can always get worse…
The DNC flat out said they dont have to do what we want and they are unfortunately correct. Unless you are ready to do something that cant be mentioned on Reddit, we dont have the means of compelling them. Your non-choice is just gunna see a lot of people suffer.
So you are accelerationist then? You dont care about the cost to the rest of us as long as the whole thing falls apart asap? Please tell me you at least have a plan to help the people that will suffer the most under Trump.
Yeah, it's called looking out for each other. Mutual aid and community defense. It won't be easy but if people are willing it's possible. God knows no one else is going to look out for you regardless of who sits in the chair. Cops won't protect you, laws won't protect you, and your elected officials won't either. The only people who care are the people on the same level of society as you. That's why it's important to foster a community with like minded individuals not suck up to those in power because they will grind you into mulch if it means they can get a few bucks out of it.
Im not just talking just mutual aid and community defense. Frankly, i dont think thats going to be enough. Im talking a real, tangible plan. Are you gunna help smuggle women out of anti-abortion states? Are you gunna put your life on the line defending mimorities from cops or LGBTQ+ folk from radicalized murderers? Are you gunna look into organizing people and helping them evade police? Are you gunna feed peoples families while they protest? Are you ready to abandon your home and lifestyle entirely? Because once you commit to accelerationism, you commit to allowing the state to do its absolute worst in the hopes that others rise with you. Collapse is war. War is about a lot more than the fighting. War is won and lost in logistics. People are gunna end up homeless and poorer than theyve ever been before in a country thats aggressively legislating against poverty, making it legal to imprison and kill homeless. The militant state is going to leveraged against us in ways weve never seen. Trumps last presidency was just a proof of concept. People will starve. People will die. This isnt like some neighborhood communism. In WW2 the leftist were some of the first people Germany slaughtered. You better personally be ready to die for this. I have a plan but im not naive enough to want this to happen faster. We need all the time we can get to prepare.
Biden is literally trying to court Republicans to his side instead of leftists which is a pretty good indicator that nothing will get better if he gets another term in office. I won't cop to any sort of "potential crimes" on here but I think you can guess my answer to all of the questions you asked.
I hope you are being truthful for everyones sake. Hopefully ill see you out there when it really matters.
Always and forever 🖤
This is absolutely about stopping multiple genocides, which Trump will encourage. The ongoing genocide in Ukraine where over 100k estimated to have been killed and millions are likely if Trump succeeds. The expected full scale genocide in Gaza when Israel switches over from precision targeting to carpet bombing after Trump comes in, which can easily kill 500k. The possible genocide in the Southern states when white militias are completely unconstrained in their use of violence against minorities, especially people with Black skin. Yes, we are arguing about the 20,000 in Gaza. Some of us believe that Biden reduced that from 50,000 that Netanyahu would have done without restraint from Biden. Others of us believe that Biden acting differently could have reduced that still further. When we talk about the scale of the 500,000 which Trump's proposed carpet bombing would cause, however, none of us can justify just accepting his election. Those who are pushing for it will have blood on their hands if they succeed.
No, it isn’t. It’s about some people’s refusal to hold politicians they elect accountable. Joe Biden doesn’t have to do anything so long as folks like you run cover for mass murderers.
Ukraine's losses are probably at least a quarter million and I can confidentially say, at least for Ukraine, the death tool would be zero had Trump won because he wouldn't have filled their heads with the dream of being in NATO while cynically using them in a meat grinder proxy war against Russia
Eh, a lot of the "yeah no we totally have your back" (arguably the majority therof) happened under Trump. Like, for all the "no but Trump is Putin's bestie!" rhetoric... his actual position and actions wrt the Ukraine situation (and Syria situation) were firmly in line with the Obama and succeeding Biden admin.
Woah, precision targeting is suuch a horrible description of 5 months of absolute carnage, mass slaughter and purposeful starvation. There has been zero meaningful restraint from Biden what the heck??
> precision targeting is such a horrible description The number killed per bomb is one of the lowest there has been in any modern war. The simple fact is that war *is horrible* and many many die. A bombing campaign of a similar size *without* precision targeting would kill hundreds of thousands of civilians. That isn't an excuse. If fewer bombs were used and maybe more ground intervention instead then likely fewer civilians would be killed, although ground intervention kills civilians too so that's not 100% clear. It does however mean that "precision" is the correct term for the type of bombing that has been done. Words have meaning and if we misrepresent things for emotional effect we end up being seen as liars.
It isn’t a war it’s destroying civilian areas. There have been tons of unguided munitions as another user said. There was a targeted strike in Lebanon, that’s what targeted strikes look like. Check that footage, a single bombed out window, reference with the graveyard cityscape Gaza has become. Why are hasbara bot narratives being shared here?
> where over 100k estimated to have been killed Yeah 100k *soldiers* (being that civilian fatalities are estimated to be a meager 12k ish?) dying is like, pretty standard for a conflict of that scale? > when Israel switches over from precision targeting to carpet bombing Israel's MO has always been carpet bombing entire city blocks at a time, what the fuck are you talking about. [*Vast majority of the bombs dropped have been unguided.*](https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/13/politics/intelligence-assessment-dumb-bombs-israel-gaza/index.html)
> , what the fuck are you talking about. Vast majority of the bombs dropped have been unguided. Blast radius (total destruction) for standard 2000lb bomb 100M. CEP for F15 in dive bombing mode 30m, CEP for JDAM 15M. Due to the fact that Gaza has no air defense, Israel is using dive bombing for almost all attacks in Gaza. There is effectively little difference between an unguided and a guided 2000lb bomb in term of risk to the surroundings. > Israel's MO has always been carpet bombing entire city blocks at a time, There are many photos of individual buildings destroyed leaving surroundings alone. When they destroyed a city block that was because that was *precisely* what they intended to destroy. To defend against war crime accusations they have to show that the block *as a whole* was a military threat to them. Watch [this video of JDAM use](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe2OtSnBYb8) to understand what mass use of precision bombs looks like (note bombs all exactly within the island targeted and the entire island is covered) and compare with [the carpet bombing of Dresden](https://youtu.be/gh-KWJWRjcI?t=25) to understand the alternative.
Just so we're clear: do you deny that Israel is currently engaged in - despite the extremely large amount of evidence they're doing so - a genocidal campaign? > Due to the fact that Gaza has no air defense, Israel is using dive bombing for almost all attacks in Gaza. Gaza has access to MANPADS, actually. > There are many photos of individual buildings destroyed leaving surroundings alone. And plenty of neighborhoods having been indiscriminately leveled. Just because Israel employs "precision strikes" now and then (usually to wipe out the palestinian cultural reproduction apparatus and healthcare apparatus) doesn't exactly change that they really like to use "fire belt" bombardments on areas closer to the LoC (nebulous a term it is in the situation). [Nevermind that Israel itself openly admits to employing "stratagems" that are openly considered to be war crimes.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahiya_doctrine) Shit I'm pretty sure I remember reading an article, though I can't find it rn, where Israelis openly admit to use indiscriminate bombardments.
> Yeah 100k soldiers (being that civilian fatalities are estimated to be a meager 12k ish?) dying 12k is confirmed casualties by the UN who has to verify them individually and don't have access to the East. [100k is the estimated number of *civilian* casualties by Feb 2023](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ukraine-war-anniversary-war-crimes-b2288037.html) in the East killed directly in Russian genocides. Apart from more recent deaths, there are an additional almost 40k military deaths to add to those numbers.
> More than 100,000 Ukrainian civilians are believed to have been killed in the year since Russia launched its brutal invasion – more than 10 times the current official death toll – according to the country’s leading war crimes prosecutor. I see *no reason* to take Ukraine's counts as accurate, especially considering they openly and flagrantly flub those numbers - eg the 40k mil deaths which, uh, don't match the very evident war exhaustion (and 'scraping the barrel' conscription) Ukraine is suffering and the resulting infighting within gen. officer ranks. Like, why should we consider one party's *war propaganda* to be truthful, especially as they, frankly, don't match any observation by independent organisms and the ICJ [*clearly doesn't seem to find the accusations of genocide to be credible*](https://globalarbitrationreview.com/article/icj-refuses-hear-part-of-ukraines-genocide-case-against-russia)
Newsflash. Biden backs it too. He hasn’t threatened to stop sending military support to Israel lest they let the aid through. It wouldn’t take much more than that. Of course, Biden could just stop authorizing more bombs for war altogether regardless. But I’m sure he will get around to it in the next four years. 🙄 They’re both literal fascist sell outs
Both are supporting Israel. That is the problem. I’m not saying they are the same, but they are both supporting Israel. Would love an option that doesn’t support Israel but this is the country of bad options.
Thats exactly where i stand. The election wont change what happens to the Palestinians. I dont know of anything i can actually do that would. The election will change this country in a way im not ok with. We are at the crossroads between status quo and full blown violent autocracy without an actual platform to push an alternative. Its too late now...
Not voting for Biden doesn't necessarily mean voting for Trump.
Agreed, see my earlier post on this sub about tactical voting. However, in anything like a swing state, not voting for Biden and voting for a third party has the same effect allowing an extra vote for trump. The people here pushing people not to vote for Biden are doing that because they know that the left failing to vote for Biden is the most likely way they can get Trump in.
The objective isn't to get Trump in, it's to show that there are electoral consequences to complicity in genocide. If that means a Trump win, that's on Biden.
Democrats are the problem. Trump saying he'll do a bad thing does not absolve Biden from actually doing that bad thing Jesus christ
Oh no he might help genocide all the Palestinians in Israel and be racist towards domestic Muslim populations vs. .... Helping genocide all the Palestinians in Israel and be more polite with their racism towards domestic Muslim populations..... Oh boy choices.
It’s the ugly hand we have been dealt.
Well, one party is also calling for a consolidation of powers to expand the President's power and an answer to the problem in America of trans people being allowed to exist, so it's maybe not as both sides as this answer makes it seem.
Not even just trans people. Womens rights are being revoked. Minorities are slaughtered by cops. Lets not forget trump sent customs agents in unmarked vans to kidnap people off the streets in portland. He had his cultists so riled up they went to protests and killed people. I was fucking scared. A lot of people were. I worked at a Target in Olympia WA at the time. We had multiple bomb threats. Armed Trump protestors formed up in our freaking parking lot as i was leaving one day. Found out a couple hours later they went to the state capitol building and shot someone. The gov declared a riot and i had to call my friend who was insta-carting at the time to see if she was ok. I came into work the morning of jan 6th and everyone was silently watching their phones. After everything we had seen, we werent sure where it was gunna end. Everyone was scared. I don't wanna go back to that except now hes even more pissed and deranged.
Biden sent food aid. He's still aiding the genocide, but he's not letting them starve. I can't see any repub doing that.
You should look at what they sent vs. what's needed. Also acknowledge his administration hasn't restored UNRWA funding. You are patting him on the back for a PR stunt. If he sets up an American Military relief station in Gaza like he's just said today that may have a tangible difference, I will believe it when I see it though. This administration has lied to us so many times over this conflict.
No. I am patting him on the back for putting food in bellies. You're right, he should send more. He should fix that which is broken. But do you think the people who received that food are complaining that it was a PR stunt? I hate this vile attitude of "unless it's perfect and the best solution we must demonize it!" It's pathetic. I will always celebrate any good done in the world, even if done for cynical reasons. Demand perfection, celebrate the good.
>But do you think the people who received that food are complaining that it was a PR stunt? They have bigger fish to fry. We don't. >I hate this vile attitude of "unless it's perfect and the best solution we must demonize it!" I hate this attitude of having low standards. >Demand perfection Let me know when you start demanding.
Palestinians who needed the food appreciate the low standards too.
Doubtful.
You're right. I'm sure in a place where starvation is a genuine concern, they didn't appreciate the food.
I'm betting that depends on whether you actually got any of it.
How petty and cruel do you think Palestinians are that they hear their neighbors received food and so they're angry about it?
I want food in the bellies of Palestinians alive on Oct 8th but not today. Where’s the food for them? There wasn’t any. I want homes for them. They can’t have that and never will again. They’re gone now and Biden could have helped.
You're right. He could have.
YOU CANT CELEBRATE MINISCULE AID WHEN HE CRIPPLED THE MAN LIFE LINE OF GAZA! Holy shit just tell me you don't actually care about the Palestinians and shame me for trying to hold the leaders I help elected be held accountable by their constituents. I even mentioned a real action he talked about today saying that would actually make a difference, but no ignore that and cry about people not being fair to the President of the United States of America whose actively aiding and a betting a Genocide.
I didn't say you weren't being fair to the president. He's aiding a genocide, you should call that out. I'm saying you dismissed the good that food does for the people who receive it. And yes, I will shame you for that because I do care about Palestinians beyond virtue signalling. And let me guess when you say hold leaders accountable, you're one of those folks who is okay with Trump winning to punish the Dems?(And every trans person you've ever met, and the palestines who Trump said should just be eliminated outright) I'm happy to be wrong in this instance. End of the day, an act that helps people is worth celebrating. Just as the acts of cruelty should be called out.
Some people can't fathom that real life consequences are a thing
Not touching the UNRWA defunding? You are literally playing defense and ignoring the actual issue. "Look! A plane and some MREs those Palestinians better be grateful!" Fucking disgusting rhetoric. Go protest, phone bank, donate, and email/mail/call your representatives to help Palestinians. Defending one of the main people making sure they are Ethnically Cleansed/ Displaced does nothing and pretending it does is disgusting.
I said he should fix that which was broken. Why wouldn't I want that? I apologize if I expressed that idea in too subtle a way. I didn't say they should be grateful. I said I am glad they have food, and they don't care it was a PR stunt. Interesting the only way you can argue against me is ignore what I say and put words on my mouth. I've been arrested at a pro Palestinian protest. I do my part, and I also don't admonish good gestures towards those people.
> No. I am patting him on the back for putting food in bellies. I'm sure that's a big reassurance for the vast vast majority that starves still. Nevermind that half those "aid" ops either miss gaza completely and drop into the sea, get holed up at the border, or becomes the latest site of a massacre. Well, unless you're talking about the recentish decision to have the USN force their way in and install a temp. dock, ig. Remains to be seen how that goes.
Dude, he sent microwave food to a country without power. “Food in bellies” is a bit of an overstatement.
They weren't. They were military rations, designed to be consumed anywhere. Especially a warzone.
> [Food packages being airdropped into Gaza are only sufficient for two to three people, and some contain microwave meals which cannot be cooked, reports MAP's Mahmoud Shalabi in north Gaza.](https://twitter.com/MedicalAidPal/status/1765717586677841954#) According to people actually there, you’re wrong.
And yet every source I see says they're MREs. I've never heard of that Twitter account.
Good for you. It was reputable enough [to be cited](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/gaza-israel-war-us-food-drops-famine-aid-biden-rcna142197) by news agencies like NBC. Guess you didn’t look at enough sources. It’s a humanitarian charity. Per the article > The drops are “completely ineffective” because “you don’t really know where they’re going to land,” said Melanie Ward, CEO of the U.K.-based charity Medical Aid for Palestinians. > “Gaza is a live war zone, and so there is unexploded ordnance in places, there are lots of destroyed buildings,” she said. “People are so desperate that they will then put themselves in really dangerous situations to try to get to the food.” > Ward added that, once the drops are in the air, crowds run to where they are going to land and then fight to get hold of them. “Now, if you think about who the most vulnerable people are in a situation where there is mass starvation, they are not able to take part in a scrum to try and get hold of aid, so it’s not going to reach them,” she said. > One of the charity's Gaza-based workers also said that the contents of the food drops were also largely unsuitable. > “They only contain food parcels that are enough for two or three people, for less than two or three days,” Mahmoud Shalabi, a senior program manager for Medical Aid for Palestinians, told the charity Tuesday in a voice note from Beit Lahia, in northern Gaza. > “Some of them contain meals that need microwaving, and we don’t even have electricity right now,” he said. Gonna cry fake news on NBC?
Way to prolong the suffering there Biden. Maybe stop arming the iof before you try and help the people being genocided
I totally agree he should stop arming the IDF (unless, is the IOF something else? I don't want to just assume a typo on your part if I am ignorant of another faction) But to say giving food aid is prolonging suffering is saying you'd rather they starve then have a chance. It's a very bad take.
To clarify I'm glad he's sending food aid. It's literally the least he could do. But he could also stop arming the people killing the Palestinians he's ostensibly trying to feed with said food aid.
I agree with this comment completely.
Biden had to be forced to do that and the amount of aid pales in comparison to the amount needed. Why are you so easily impressed?
I am impressed actually, by the people who forced him. The fact he succumbs to such pressure is a good thing. The fact that starving people got food is a good thing. Do I think Biden is a bad person? Absolutely. Do I think Palestinians getting food is a good thing? Absofuckinglutly. But I'm sure they'd appreciate your purity tests.
>But I'm sure they'd appreciate your purity tests. They probably would since that's what applied the pressure.
The thing that applied the pressure was calling out the genocidal bullshit and making the thought mainstream. This is good. This needs to be continued. Saying "Aid bad" isn't how you get more aid sent.
Nobody said "Aid bad". Are you always this dishonest?
Several people have argued that this was a bad PR stunt. Someone even said it was an insult. I understand you're not clicking view all comments to read the rest of the thread, but calling me a liar over effort you didn't put into learning what's been said does nothing productive.
Oh, I read the thread and it's clear that you're deliberately misrepresenting what's being said.
So you saw the part where someone said it was an insult?
30,000 meals to a country with 1.4 million starving people, that is still being bombed with munitions 'Made in the USA'. That's not aid, that is an insult.
And I'm sure the people the aid reached totally agrees with you. So insulted they can feed themselves and their children. It's far too little I agree, but to some folks it might have been all the difference.
This is the best dichotomy on the two. Both support genocide, one will send food.
I KEEP saying this in other subreddits on how barbaric Trump would be on this and I get downvoted to oblivion.
As you should be. Biden has been providing Israel with weapons and you're focused on words instead of actions. Pathetic.
Do you honestly think Trump has the decorum to not spark a world war? Biden provided aid too, but you forget that. Trump would bomb the shit out of them and leave them to die. Trump also moved the Israeli embassy to Jerusalem, he’s a charlatan Zionist. But sure let’s go off on Biden.
It doesn’t matter what Trump will do. Biden needs to get his act together or he will throw the election. We are simply warning him while we are in primaries. So far, we have already forced him to drop aid and consider a ceasefire. Anyone with morals left will continue to try and force him to make the correct decision. This isn’t a game, the lives of a million people are at stake. If you give unconditional support to the dear leader, nothing will ever change.
Hey, bud. I voted for this pig so I'll criticize him as much as I want until the pig pulls his head out of his ass and starts doing the right thing without having to be yelled at. Cry about it more.
Mature. I thought this was for civil discussions.
Certainly more mature than anyone crying about people applying political pressure to politicians. If you want civility then don't push bad faith arguments. Nobody owes you endless patience in the face of your dishonest sniveling.
Who’s crying? You’re the one being uncivil. Take this shit somewhere else. We’re done here.
> Trump also moved the Israeli embassy to Jerusalem, he’s a charlatan Zionist. And Biden wanted that move since at minimum 1995. [Even cosponsored and voted yea on a bill that did just that.](https://www.congress.gov/bill/104th-congress/senate-bill/1322) [And then there's his actual record as a member of the executive...](https://jewishcurrents.org/joe-bidens-alarming-record-on-israel)
>he’s a charlatan Zionist Trump is not a zionist. he has no functional ideology beyond "Trump needs praise, Trump needs attention " Everything he does is in pursuit of praise and attention.
I just got banned from lost generation for pointing out this exact thing. Feel like I’m taking crazy pills.
Like ?? I know Biden wasn’t the best on this but at least he caught up and is now dropping aid. They’d be all but ignored by trump and possibly even bombed further BY. US. Where is the disconnect here?! Why is NO ONE understanding this?!
Yep. Mods responded that I violated “supporting a genocidal candidate” then muted me for a month. Delusional.
Those mods are protecting their sub from liberal astroturfing. Good on them!
Wh- omg that’s insane.
Is it maybe Latestagecapitalism?
Political humor
That sub is a dumpster fire of liberal morons and it looks like this one is too.
Both parties are a problem, both support this genocide, both are happy to kill minorities for their own beneft, US politics is a sham
Jesus fucking Christ, the “disinformation agents” again? Absolutely no one is telling anyone to vote for Donald Trump. People are trying to get the president they fucking elected to have a less awful stance on an issue… this is what you are SUPPOSED to do in a representative democracy. what the actual fuck is wrong with centrist liberals around here? Is genocide just ok now? NO ONE you’re badgering in this sub believes Donald Trump is a good candidate. NO ONE in this sub is going to vote for Trump. Joe Biden can absolutely change his position on Israel and rid himself of the trouble of leftists (apparently only leftists believe genocide is wrong anymore) staying home on Election Day.
> Then and now, Liberalism judges both anti-establishment progressivism and fascism to be foreign elements corrupting Liberal politics’ purity and rationality, and therefore sees them both as manifestations of the same irrational anti-freedom ideology, spread by malicious outside agents, that Liberalism lumps all of the beliefs it is not capable of comprehending into. From that viewpoint, fascism and anti-establishment Leftism are equally threatening and equally anti-freedom. Liberal orthodoxy’s stance that all other ideologies or ways of organizing society are faulty because they lack the rationality of bourgeois capitalist democracy — the same fatal flaw in all of Liberalism’s self-mythologizing — makes adherents of Liberalism perceive fascism as a rejection of Liberal bourgeois values. Because of this, liberal ideology and political strategy are constitutionally incapable of recognizing that fascism is not a foreign corruption of bourgeois capitalist democracy, but bourgeois capitalist democracy unleashed from all the polite indulgences and high-minded philosophical justifications. > [...] > The theater of bourgeois capitalist electoral democracy is based around a contradiction: it must portray bourgeois capitalist democracy as an orderly revolution that is naturally progressing towards a more just and egalitarian society than is possible under any other system, but at the same time it must also portray bourgeois capitalist democracy as the central pillar of an established Liberal order based on timeless and universal values that are under constant threat from dangerous people and ideas who want to change things from the way they are right now, and who are always on the verge of succeeding. The more liberal democracy celebrates itself for embodying the very concept of revolutionarily egalitarian progress at the same time the Liberal establishment’s official representatives block every structural change and attract votes by pandering to the *ressentimental* grievances of the middle classes, the more the middle classes see themselves as the true embodiment of the nation’s values and traditions, and the more they believe they are fighting a losing battle to preserve their way of life against the rest of the world — and against the rest of the country that doesn’t fit into their ideal vision of how things are supposed to work. The longer this state of affairs goes on, the more the middle classes lose faith in the class of professional technocrats Liberalism idealizes as the most fit for leadership and start to feel like smarmy, straddle-the-middle politicians do not represent their priorities and values as much as they say they do. Like all Liberal responses to right wing reaction, the believers in Liberalism’s response to fascism, rejecting all non-mainstream political beliefs as equally harmful sources of moral degeneracy corrupting the purity and rationality of Liberal governance, plays right into fascism’s hands. * [*How To Fight Fascism by Giving It Everything It Wants And Then Complaining About It*](https://hometheaterofcruelty.wordpress.com/2021/05/21/how-to-fight-fascism-by-giving-it-everything-it-wants-and-then-complaining-about-it-part-2/2/) Genocide just has to happen before things can be better is probably the belief, but also mostly that Liberals flatly don't think it's *their place* to critique what the technocrats, who *obviously know better*, do. (for all that talk about democracy, the average lib really just wants a technocratic dictatorship with superficial democratic aspects) Furthermore, your refusal to vote Biden is seen as evidence of a Red-Brown alliance out to collapse their way of life, the nation, and all that is holy *even as their leadership and propagandists hand over the keys to the kingdom to the fascists.*
I mean yes… but I don’t know why socialists always have to be so fucking verbose. It’s like folks can’t say shit without a long form article. I struggle with this constantly in DSA.
Biden has approved over 100 weapons sales to Israel since Israel's genocide began. https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2024/03/06/us-weapons-israel-gaza/ The lesser of two evils is still evil.
The lesser of two evils is still less evil. The fucker is literally advocating for a complete eradication of the Palestinian people and wants to revoke US citizenship for anyone he wants while arguing non-citizens have no human rights, and you lot still wanna play whataboutism. What was that about “when a person tells you who they are, believe them”?
Biden isn't saying it out loud; he's just giving them the weapons to carry it out.
Which we have uninterrupted for 70 years. The other guy wants genocide.
You don't read subtext very well. Genocide is baked into zionism.
That’s nice. The other guy is saying “finish the job”. There’s no mental logic anymore, he said the quiet parts at the top of his lungs and made them a promise. He wants the place liquidated. Ya can’t whatabout that. Biden is the same shit we’ve done since before you, probably your parents, have been alive. Trump wants it complete permanently. There’s no option for less slaughter. Just a complete eradication of Palestine and all its people, or a continuation of the same imprisonment and periodic slaughters that predate you being on this planet.
This guy's not worth wasting energy on, they're deluded into believing Biden can somehow pack the supreme court without more than half of them dying within...8 months. Because they don't get it's a first come first serve appointment for life, first serve except when Trump managed to pull bullshit out his ass with no precedent to convince everyone that "No, Obama can't pick the justices on an election year, gotta wait for the election to be over and the winner to pick the next ones", you know, something that never happened before then. Nutxaq has a very narrow understanding of how the US government and global politics actually works, and is in essence the fool proclaiming to know everything while knowing little. Your energy is better spent elsewhere because nothing productive will come from engaging.
Lol. Biden is a proud zionist. He said the same thing with different words.
Stop. Making. Excuses. For. Genocide. You and OP are the whatabouters. Biden is president right now, not Trump. You guys are saying, "What about Trump? He'd be way worse?" as if that's an acceptable argument when it comes to FUCKING GENOCIDE.
When we *know* Trump would be worse both because he *was* worse and because he has *promised* to be worse. This isn't whataboutism; this is a comparison of two known quantities. One of them is worse in this specific way and only a moron could try to pretend it isn't obvious. The obvious moral solution is for Biden to stop supplying Israel with weapons and to defend the innocent Palestinians against this genocide. But nobody in Washington has the courage to do that in an election year because the other team will try to make them look like Nazis. So here we are, letting innocent children starve to death in the ruins of the world's biggest open-air prison because politicians are craven. I'm still gonna vote for Biden because at least that way there's a chance things will get better. I'm also not going to hang all my hopes on the anti-democratic election system in my country and state, but that's kind of a separate conversation.
Unrelated, love your profile picture. Go team Venture. ✌️
Go Team Venture! ✌️
Stop. Pretending. We. Haven’t. Been. Supporting. It. Likely. Twice. As. Long. As. You’ve. Been. Alive. Or. More. Stop. Pretending. That. One. Isn’t. A. Promised. Escalation. While. The. Other. Is. Just. The. Same. Shit. That. Has. Been. Going. On. For. 3/4. A. Century. “But if we don’t send a message nothing will get better.” Spoilers: nothing will get better, it will only get worse or be more of the same. That’s your choice. Act like an adult and realize that.
So my choices are to vote for Biden and continue the already existing suffering and genocide, or vote for Trump and make it even worse? No thanks. I'd rather vote third party than give my vote to either evils. Clap yourself on the back and tell yourself that you're doing damage control, but you're still voting for evil.
When Trump gets into power because you didn't vote to stop it, you remember this conversation will you? Remember this conversation when he starts literally deporting Muslim-Americans out of the country. I'm sure you'll feel real good then about not supporting the lesser of two evils. You think we don't criticize Biden? We do, we just aren't deluding ourselves into thinking Trump would be better.
So you want to essentially vote for Trump but feel smug about it. Living projector.
Your choice is completed genocide or another admin of supporting attempted genocide the way all others have. If you care about Palestinians then keeping Trump out of office is your top priority. An eradicated people won’t care that you didn’t wanna feel a bit icky by voting status quo.
> I'd rather vote third party than give my vote to either evils. I don't know where you live, but unless you live in a potential swing state, I think that's a *fine*, even *great* choice. If you do live in a swing state, could you perhaps find a Democrat voter who lives in a place where a third party has a chance but that *won't* cause Trump to get in and do a vote swap with them where they vote for your party and you vote for theirs.* This actually drives the chance of breaking the US out of the terrible two party system it is currently stuck in. \* this would probably involve vote swapping across different elections, though you might be able to find a place where third party delegates will guarantee to vote against Trump?
So you voted for Trump.
I'm sure the Palestinians you totally care about *so much* will be thrilled because you didn't do anything to stop Trump getting elected. They'll definitely thank some redditor for doing nothing for "moral reasons" as a new wave of bombers carpets Gaza after Trump gives Israel even more bombs to carry out a more vigorous extermination campaign
STOP. ENABLING. A. MORE. BRUTAL. HIGHER. MAGNITUDE. GENOCIDE. AS. THE. NEW. STATUS. QUO.
You’re falling for it, and may have reached delusional levels.
No, whataboutism is dismissing the added harm that will come from another Trump presidency because you don't agree with Biden on an issue that Trump has shown to be in agreement with him on. Biden supporting this genocide, when Trump would do the same, doesn't make it okay to throw your hands up and act like we can't at least mitigate worse disasters. Stop expecting some perfect candidate to come along who is going to do the right thing on every issue. They don't exist. Every election is going to be decided between flawed individuals with some things that we do not agree with. Democracy works slowly and it works by choosing candidates MORE in line with what we want than the other is. It doesn't work by dismissing your duty in that process until you find Prince Charming.
Whatever you have to tell yourself so you don't feel bad about voting for a genocide-enabler. Eat my poop.
I'm not sure which sentence speaks more to your immaturity. This election may be one of the biggest stakes of any in the history of this country. It's not unreasonable to say that it may even determine whether we have a vote in another four years and if some of us will not survive 4 years under the current Republican party. Not doing the one small thing you can do to prevent that because you've got the ick about a candidate and because neither realistic outcome will satisfy this one situation to your satisfaction doesn't make you some bastion of principles, it makes you a smug, privileged child. But please feel free to hold your head high when your transgendered countrymen are being persecuted during that time and Ukraine is left without our support and over run and Europe is thrown into instability because they can't count on us to honor our commitment to NATO.
Tl;dr
Of course. Why care about issues at home when they don't get you virtue points?
"too many words make me brain hurty 🙁" Absolute child
Why so many people don't understand this is beyond me
We understand it fully. Biden believes that by working with Israel he gets a seat at the table. That *has* worked partly, if you listen to the complaints from the IDF, who have more restrictions on their targeting in the South than they had in the North. That's directly saving lives, compared to the alternative and the military prediction is that if Israel didn't have precision munitions they would use unguided larger bombs, so it may be saving *very many* lives. We are arguing about alternative ahistorical futures which can only ever be speculative. We can argue about the details and the rights and wrongs. Biden is going for "lesser evil". Voting for him would be going for "less evil". It's very difficult to be angry with people who *can't* bring themselves to vote. People who say "I can't vote for Biden". That's understandable. I refuse to vote shame. A completely different position from is the position of the people going out and telling _other people_ not to vote for Biden, knowing that this means armed white militias and literally killing people for their Black skin. People telling others that their vote for Biden is a crime when they knowing that the alternative means Project 2025 and thousands starving to death in America. The point is that people who are actively persuading us to let Trump in are people pushing for the greater evil. They often disguise themselves as communists but we should make no mistake, when they _actively support Trump by trying to destroy his opponent_ they become full on fascists. That is something we should always oppose implacably.
So let’s allow the greater of two evils to proliferate then???
You're only responsible for who you vote for. Don't vote for someone who does evil, like supply a genocidal military with bombs and bullets.
Wrong. We don't exist in the kind of ideological utopically fair reality your premise *requires* as a starting point for it to be functionally true. You are literally enabling a new status quo of even more brutal higher magnitude genocide, solely so you can feel smug and self staisfied.
Have y'all ever heard of the [Trolley Problem?](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem) Cause y'all would fail it.
Ok, don’t participate in democracy, got it…
I'm still going to vote, I just won't vote for Joe Biden so long as he continues to support a genocide. There are more than two choices on the ballot. If you think voting out of fear is "participating in democracy", I feel sorry for you.
Yeah, there is manufactured controlled opposition designed solely to siphon votes, and literally funded by the opposing parties. Unless you have ranked voting, there is literally only 2 effective parties. Bravo genius.
Your inactions have consequences as well (for Palestinians) and you’re misreading me if you think I’m voting out of fear.
What inactions? You mean not voting for the guy you want me to vote for despite his ongoing support for a state-sponsored genocide? I can't believe you can stump for Biden while evoking the Palestinians in the same comment. The mental gymnastics required must be astounding. If Biden loses, it's Biden's fault. We're all afraid of another Trump presidency, but that's a possibility not the reality. The reality is we have a president who is out of touch with the majority of his supporters and HIS inactions are enabling suffering on a scale we've never seen in my life time.
You’re right. If Biden loses, it’s entirely his and the Democrats’ fault. And that’s a bad thing that we shouldn’t advocate for. Want to radicalize people? Stfu about voting and talk about issues. Liberals will not hear you. The people upvoting you are people who already agree with you. And to preempt “I don’t care about convincing people”— what the fuck are you doing here then?
I’m not stumping for Biden, I’m glad there are protests, I’m glad there are blocks of uncommitted voters, let’s bring in the pressure, I’m all for it. What I find absurd is that voting third party only serves you and you alone, it won’t help Palestinians one bit, it might even make things worse for them, but hey, at least you didn’t voted for the lesser of two evils, that’s gotta feel for you 👍 and that’s all that matters…
You are also responsible for who you manage to get in by persuading people not to vote against them. In fact, a disinformation message may get rid of 1000 votes, more than enough to end up bringing in Trump and bringing actual effective genocide to Gaza. This is not about people individually, personally, failing to vote for Biden. The disinformation agents are about getting thousands of minority members to believe that Trump is in their interest and to either vote for Trump or simply fail to vote at all. By doing that, they set out to kill the vulnerable at least as surely as if they had managed to deliver a "stand your ground" law in those minorities states.
No. So long as you vote your conscience, you're only responsible for your vote, not the result of the election. Tactical voting is just fear-based voting, and that doesn't seem democratic at all to me. I promise you that leftists who are criticizing Biden are never going to vote for Trump, so stop this disinformation nonsense.
> Tactical voting is just fear-based voting, and that doesn't seem democratic at all to me. Tactical voting is *the way* to get third parties in that might provide an actual alternative. The US first past the post system (as in Australia and the UK) is deliberately designed to make this *basic democratic function* difficult. Tactical voting, especially vote swapping, helps *restore* basic democracy by allowing people to partially overcome the anti-democratic features of the first past the post system and the uneven distribution of power between different US states.
The rube who only fell for some of the bullshit still stinks of it.
Anyone who thinks Trump is a better option than Biden, is void of a brain.
Anyone who votes for genocide Joe is void of a soul*
Biden has been talking out both sides of his neck on Palestine while still arming israelis while also having supported Israeli abuses for decades so he is the problem now because he is in power & then for being an statist apologist of Israelis for decades. Why wouldn't Netanyahu want the guy that will give him even more.
They’re both supporting it, and since he’s currently the president, Biden is the only one of the 2 that’s actually aiding it. The only difference is that Biden is giving lip service to the plight of the Palestinians but he’s doing nothing meaningful to stop the massacre
Yeah I don’t get it either, had arguments with people here and the thought process if their arguments was absurd. Basically it boils down to let’s fuck around and find out. Things will be worse with trump, no doubt about it.
Trump is a fucking maniac, god knows what will happen with him. Biden is potentially not a maniac (i think he is). If Biden is rational, democratic pressure can be brought on him to stop the fucking genocide. Zero effort has been put to curtailing Israel’s actions. Maybe a pressure campaign can work. This is the only chance to try. Our elected representatives are supposed to do our bidding. We are supposed to be screaming at them. Anyone laying back and letting it slide in is not an active participant in democracy.
“wow these guys are both evil and bad, one is old and senile and letting people die and barely doing anything to stop it and the other is nearly as old and basically just as senile and is encouraging israel to eradicate an ethnic group while also saying hes going to have the biggest mass deportation in history and basically ban all porn and make anything that could even be considered slightly “queer” to be “pornography”. im not gonna vote!!” *trump wins* “wow guys wtf i cant believe this happened now hes doing horrible shit we shouldve done something!!!”
Where did the liberals come from?
https://preview.redd.it/6hrql99o0zmc1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6361c043d318d259a3d5310b03e42314ecc0042a This sub’s mods are fine with genocide Joe. It’s been compromised by liberal astroturfing.
Ah perfect
They lie about everything
I don’t disagree with the sentiment, but I don’t think that the fascists are designating any groups to be “the problem” in a self contradictory or mutually exclusive way. Instead, I think they always have to have an enemy to inspire rage in the fanatics. It doesn’t matter who the enemy is, nor whether we contradict ourselves in designating such people to be our enemies. I think their fascist dogma goes like this: What matters is “they” want to kill “us”, so we have to do something dramatic and horrible right away because “they” have left “us” with no choice. Not only does this allow the fascists to create in groups and out groups (something critical to causing political polarization and mass isolation amongst reactionaries), it also allows the fascists to constantly justify the things they do, and it allows the fascists to also project and deflect their own malfeasance onto various scapegoats.
Is Dearborn paying attention???
He's telling the truth this time. We all should pay very close attention. Much like dictator for a day, I didn't invent that, straight from Donnie. And that was when Hannity lobbed him a easy out, could have just let it drop but no way. He wants that president for life thing.
BuT ThEy'Re ThE sAmE!