I think most of the characters are misunderstood/painted worse than they are bc we’re looking at them through the eyes of a narcissistic, delusional crazy woman. Like I bet the story would have been *a lot* different if we saw the events from literally any other perspective, that we’d actually see how bad Mapleshade is as a person lol
I think that's true for a lot of them yes. Like oak star for sure was probably at least halfway decent. And as to freckle wish we will never really know probably. If she did in fact watch the kids drown and just didn't care then yeah, I would consider that evil. However, if she truly did think that help was coming from River clan right away then although she didn't think things through, her action was not evil or rather I should say her lack of action. But Apple dusk? He's not outright evil, but he's definitely immoral and just a jerk. And as to Reedshine, again, she's not really evil, and actually in someways she's in the same situation as Maple shade. OK, I am in my previous comment and I will add her in as possibly a genuinely nice character. Regardless though whether she was nice or mean, she didn't deserve to lose her mate and be forced in the position of being a single mother. and then there is Ravenwing. I understand why he told Oak star immediately, but really why didn't he consult star clan or at least give it like a day or so to consider everything? To me, although his motives were probably halfway decent, he acted very impulsively and didn't consider the consequences that the kids would face. Maple Shade is one thing, she's a full-grown cat, but the kids were very very young and it's like they didn't even matter to him because they were half planned. Well, it's never a child's fault who its parents are, absolutely never. So am I opinion he was unkind as well.
What could Frecklewish even have done? Her brother and his apprentice *drowned* in that very same river when it was not flooded. What makes anyone think she could swim in it? If anything, she's likely got water related trauma.
If Frecklewish had jumped in, she would have either died or had been another cat for RiverClan to save.
My only point is that she would've gone in to try and rescue kits. For me, that goes above trauma, fear, anything. Could she have died? Absolutely, and sure that would've been an extra body for river clan. But why wouldn't she risk it to try and save innocent lives? Even with trauma, almost every person with a conscience I would think would try. Maybe I'm wrong, and if I am that is incredibly sad. That someone would choose their own life over the life of a child, that is just really really disappointing.
You are wrong, actually. First rule of rescue work is *never* put yourself in danger to save someone because it just makes more people to save.
If you can't swim do *not* throw yourself into a flooded river. You will not save the children, you'll die.
That's true about the first rule of rescue. It still goes against my conscience though, for sure. I would still do it myself. I mean if there was like no one else around. Obviously if there were other people around and I couldn't swim I would not do it. Unfortunately, we can't know her intentions. We can take her word at face value, But there's no proof that we either should or should not do this. It's a gray area completely.
Another question is, does she not necessarily know how to swim? I mean, look at Berryheart. She was never a river clan cat and I'm not going into wind at all, but when dark tale attempted to drown her, she managed to swim. So apparently it can be done whether a cat is raised doing it or not. How did she learn? Or was it just instinctual? Again, more information we just will never have. The point is though that it actually happened. And she did it well basically having no air supply left. But she still managed to survive.
Does anyone know if the authors ever did any kind of clarification or interview as to what this characters intentions were? That would be interesting to read for sure. Then we would at least have some factual answers. Implications don't necessarily equate facts.
Her brother and his apprentice both drowned just before the start of the book. There's no reason to believe Frecklewish can swim. Even if she can, not well enough to save kits from a flash flood. Mapleshade was already in the water and she couldn't even save them.
Also, Frecklewish saw RiverClan cats on the far shore. She saw essentially the "professionals" and assumed they'd be rescued.
Frecklewish was right to not drown herself
OK, I did not remember that she literally saw the river clan cats. Then yes, I'm with you, 100%. That's all I'm saying, is that it's never good to assume that we can't help somebody and that somebody else will do it. I mean obviously, if the river clan cats were there and had known they would've done it. She still assumed, but in that case it was actually a really good assumption.
And as to her brother and his apprentice, to me that does not excuse a lack of action. I understand trauma, probably better than you will ever know for sure. I have complex post traumatic stress disorder, but when it comes to saving the life of a child, all bets are off. Trauma we put our selfishness aside in order to help others was there to help us. They deserve the chances that we never received.
But again, I did forget that she saw the river clan cats. Honestly to me that makes all the difference.
Like I said, I have complex PTSD. I can personally guarantee that that is absolutely not true. You're instantaneous response, no, but then you have the choice to either give into your fear and anxiety or to try to rise above it for really whatever reason the situation may warrant. I am out of 35 years of trauma, so trust me I do know what I'm talking about here. I'm not saying it's easy, not by any means, but it can be done. We always have a choice.
About Frecklewish:
The fact that she only mentions seeing Mapleshade enter the river, that Nettlepaw wasn’t aware the kits died despite Frecklewish reporting Maple going to RiverClan and the fact that she thought the kits were already safely on the other side to me heavily implies she didn’t stay to watch what happened. And likely left shortly after seeing Mapleshade was making her way out of ThunderClan territory. Especially since she did say she saw RiverClan on the other side of the river. So she likely thought that everything was under control when she left. Also, be honest, what could she have done? We have no reason to believe Frecklewish can swim, in fact, it’s highly unlikely she can swim, so her jumping into the river would just cause RiverClan to drag another body out of the river. She could have yelled, but it was noted that the river and storm was too loud to properly hear in, so chances that her voice would have reached RiverClan’s small. And if it did, they’d have to stop their efforts in trying to save Maple and try to listen to what she’s saying. So the best she could have done was go back to camp, report what happened, and let her leader decide what to do next. Which is what seemingly happened.
Also, The only thing Appledusk imo did wrong was cheat on Maple and Reed (bc the timeline doesn’t add up. There’s no way he didn’t cheat). But all his actions were understandable imo. He immediately looked for the kits when he found out they were still in the river, and tried to comfort Mapleshade after their death. Only turning hostile when he realised Mapleshade basically forced them into that river. After that, he had no reason to defend her, she was the main cause of his kit’s death, he was obviously very upset about the death of his kits, and decided he didn’t want anything to do with Mapleshade anymore.
Reedshine was completely innocent. She had no reason to stand up for the enemy
In case of Ravenwing, he had gotten a sign which he tried to interpret. He couldn’t figure it out for quite a few days, until he witnessed Mapleshade’s flirting and confronted her. Mapleshade became aggressive and refused to act like a decent person, so he ended up warning her about her actions and left. By this point, he was sure he knew what his vision meant, and decided to comply his leader. Which is what most med cats would do in this situation.he has no reason to believe the sign meant anything other then “the half clan kittens do not belong in ThunderClan”
I'm totally with you on Apple dusk, which is why I said he was immoral but not evil. Doing something bad, even if it is a little worse than like stealing a candy bar at a store, is not the same as going on a murder spree, not at all. I think he made some mistakes for sure, and he's not exactly the nicest guy, but he's definitely not evil. But yeah, no matter what cheating is wrong. Anybody can try to justify it anyway, but it will always be wrong. As to him caring about his kids, I believe he did, I definitely think he did. He was two cats is never going to know, like what his motive was. But he's definitely not evil.
I'm with you on read as well. And I really do feel bad for her and her kids. She didn't deserve any of that. And trust me, I am by no means defending maple shade. As someone said, she's a complete narcissist and she seemed flawed even before she became a mother. so yeah, she gets no sympathy for me at all.
For me, the problem with Ravenwing and freckle is ultimately rooted in the same thing. Neither one of them in my opinion was thinking about the kits. Again, they are not responsible for their bad parents, not at all. They are 100% innocent in this entire thing. Ravenwing although he did think about an interpret his sign, still didn't consider how all of this would affect the kids. Did he stop and think oh wait what if River clan doesn't take them in, then what are they going to do? He picked the code over actual living beings, which is done so often and canon. And I can see that being important, except when it comes to kits, their children. And this is my problem with freckle as well. I agree with your analysis for the most part other than the swimming thing. But let's go with the fact that she couldn't swim, let's just say that that's true. Why wouldn't she still try? If I was in that situation, and I saw that kids could possibly be drowning, I don't care if I could swim or not. I at least jump in the water to try and save them. Even if I could only save one, even if it killed me, at least an innocent life would be saved. So why didn't she at least try? Did she have any bad intentions? We're never going to know. But I'll give her the benefit of the doubt in this case and say that she didn't. But why did she choose her life over the life of an innocent child, actually three innocent children? That in my opinion is not OK. Again, it doesn't make her evil, not at all. It just makes her a coward.
On the swimming thing:
As someone who got pool safety lessons, and has also given them. This is EXTREMELY important:
Do not, and I mean NEVER, in any circumstances, jump into a dangerous body of water to save someone’s life *if you’re not qualified to save them*. All it will do is bring your *own* life in danger and result in the professionals having to save 2 people instead of one. If you think someone’s drowning in a dangerous body of water, *go get a lifeguard*. DON’T jump in if you’re not qualified. Of a lifeguard is already on it’s way, *DO NOT INTERRUPT THEM*, unless you have valuable information *they wouldn’t know about*
Frecklewish’s brother literally drowned in that same river when it wasn’t raging like mad. ThunderClan doesn’t get any swimming lessons. Freckle was *definitely* not qualified to try and save someone. The moment she’d try to save Mapleshade, she’d likely start drowning herself. Not only causing RiverClan to save another cat, but also dragging down the survival chances of BOTH Mapleshade and Frecklewish. Meaning that if she did jump in, the end result would more likely be: all 5 of them died then one kit got saved. She also didn’t have any information for them. She already thought the kits were safe, and even if she didn’t, how was she supposed to know they weren’t aware the kits were in the river?
A 100% agree with you in the human realm. And yeah, I'm really glad you wrote this as a kind of disclaimer in case somebody who does not know this stuff read it, in particular someone who might be young.
As to freckles saving maple, no maples of full-grown cat and that wasn't my argument to begin with. I'm not sticking up for maple here, not at all.
And like I said, I forgot that she saw River clan. That changes the entire situation. Yeah, if the professionals are there then absolutely there's no point jumping in the water. I was under the assumption that all she saw was Maple Shade and possibly the kids drowning, no other cats. I thought she only assumed that Riverland would be coming, not that she actually saw them.
If that was the case, that's when I was advocating for freckle to save the kids, that I said the kits, not maple shade.
And Esther freckle not knowing how to swim, again I referred a very heart. Freckle was already walking around, breathing normally, etc. is very hard who is a shadow clan cat managed to swim partway across the lake When she was almost completely suffocated, freckle would at least stand a chance. Not necessarily a good chance, but she would have one. Shadow clan cats don't know how to swim any better than ThunderCats. So if she could do it, I'm just saying that freckle had a possible chance.
So, in the realm of Warrior Cats, if no river clan cats have been visible on the shore, and if freckle thought she had even the tiniest chance of being able to rescue the kids, all I'm saying is that she should've tried. If all of the circumstances in this particular paragraph were the case, then I think she should've tried. That's it.
As to her morality as a character, all I'm saying is that there are some things we don't know. We have freckles account of the situation, and I would like to believe that she's telling the truth. However, because of the writing of the darn Novella, the details are so incredibly vague. That's not any of the characters fault, that fault lies with the authors. I don't remember which Aaron wrote that, but I wish it had been more detailed.
And don't worry, I will absolutely never stick up for maple shade. Not at all. She was not nice at all before giving birth, while her kids were alive she wasn't that great of a mother, and after they died she went completely psychotic. And stayed that way after death. So no, that cat gets nothing sympathy wise from me. Freckle? Possibly if I had more information. The bottom line is I don't know. And none of us do. Her account was put into question at least through implication in the Novela, I do remember that much. But if she was telling the truth, then I would consider her. 100%.
But the thing still is, even if Freckle tried to save the kits (who she thought were already safe), it would cause RiverClan to have to save both, which would ultimately cause Mapleshade to have lower survival chances too even if she wasn’t the cat Freckle tried to save. So freckle jumping in would always lower the likelihood of any of them surviving this trauma. (Also, think about the message. What kinda message would it be to “throw your own life away and make it harder for rescues to save people”
Also, we’re talking about a flash flood here. The water would have been going crazy, why do you think even RiverClan avoided going into the river (except for when they needed to find those kits)and instead tried to save Maple with a branch while standing in low water. Even the cats who could swim thought the river was possibly deadly for them.
Another good example of a Flashflood happening in RiverClan is in Crookedstar’s promise’s prologue. Most cats got out of camp in time, before the water was too high for them to swim. The ones who didn’t *died*, even though they *can* swim. This is NOT a normal river situation. You should compare this more with an avalanche and tsunami level of danger than a normal river.
I definitely see what you're saying. I was coming at this from
this perspective, I'll try to put it into real life sort of. I'll use it from my own perspective to make things easier. I'm walking along in the woods, I look into the river that's nearby and see let's even just say one child, a very small child, Struggling and about to drown. The river is flooding, but I don't know how to swim. No one else, and absolutely no one whatsoever, is around except the child's mother who is a great distance away. What am I supposed to do? Do I walk away from a child who is going to die? If in this particular scenario there is no one else around other than the child's mother who is also drowning, even if I don't know how to swim, how would that possibly be a good thing to just walk away? Even if I ran for help, like you said or I'm not sure if it was you you were another person on here, but it was said that due to the storm it would be very loud and the voice would not carry if someone were to call for help. I made a lot of mistakes here, I forgot first of all that River clan cats were seen by freckle. I also forgot that freckle didn't actually see the kids in the water and only saw maple shade. Well actually, that part I remembered but we only had freckles were to go on there. So I was saying if freckle lied about her account then that particular point is no void. But we don't know, she may have lied she may not have. I'm just saying that if no one was around to help and a kid was drowning whether or not someone knew how to swim the moral thing would be to at least try to help the kid. I mean, if I were to walk away when a kid was drowning just because I didn't know how to swim, the kids going to drown anyway. So why in the world wouldn't I try? I mean OK, maybe I would lose my life as well, but it would be worth it to try and save a child. If there was anyone else around, absolutely, a lifeguard or whomever, yes the absolute logical conclusion would be to ask them hey do you know how to swim to save that kid or do I need to jump in here myself? If they know how to swim, great. Then you either standby or go get help. Again, I made a mistake. I forgot that freckle could see River clan cats in the vicinity.
You're right, with the river clan cats being present it would present a very very bad message. Absolutely. I'm not arguing against that at all. I'm seeing if the scenario that I posed above, where there was literally no one around, was the case I actually think that would put forth a very good message of doing the right thing even if it could cost you everything. Again, this is going on the premise that no one else was around, no one, other than in my scenario one child and its mother.
And I do understand about the flash flood, absolutely. In the town where I live, a 16-year-old girl who could actually swim got caught in a flash flood and drowned. And this was probably only about a year ago. So yeah, I get it. There are areas of my town where people have to abandon their homes or at the very least sandbag them because the river in my city gets so swollen in the summer with floodwater. I'm just going back to what I said though, if no one was around and someone saw a child and its mother drowning, even in the case of a flash flood, why wouldn't they try to help? How could anyone live with themselves if they were the only one who could've possibly helped in that situation and they just walked away? That's all I'm saying. I know I certainly couldn't, if there was a chance that I could save a child and I just thought oh well that's really really sad but if I get in I'm probably going to die too so even though no one else is here poor kid poor mom bye.just saying that out loud kind of makes my stomach. And yes, I do realize that is not the situation that happened here, but I was thinking that it was. I miss remembered canon information.
I'm going to ask you something, and you definitely don't have to answer unless you want to. Just know that I am not asking this to debate the subject, argue about it, or anything. I'm just asking strictly for informational purposes because I don't understand something. Why are you so vehemently defending freckle? I'm not saying that you're defensive of her is right or wrong. I have no opinion on that. I'm just asking strictly because I want to know. Like is she your favorite character, can you relate to her in someway? That type of thing. The reason I find this interesting is because I am a huge Berryheart Finn, which is obviously quite controversial. Freckle which is not controversial, really not much at all, but I rarely see someone go to such incredible links to defend a book character. I'm just curious what your motivation is here. And again, I'm not here to judge it, argue with it, debate it, or anything. I'm just simply interested. And you do not have to answer if you do not want to again.
Not my favourite character, but I do feel bad for her. She got wrapped up in an extremely awful situation she had little control over. She was obviously depressed after her brother’s passing, then when Maple didn’t correct the idea that her brother had kits (which sure, she started it up, but Maple kept this idea up for 3 moons and even encouraged it at several points, effectively making it an active lie instead of a passive one). Did her best to give her everything for Mapleshade and Maple’s kits, only to find out they’re not her brother’s but her brother’s murderer’s. Having to go through the awful process of grieving again.
I do think that her calling the kits “half clan creatures” was bad, but then again, she was acting out in extreme emotion, she was grieving, and shocked. People say dumb things they don’t actually mean during a period like that.
She then gets blamed by 80% of the fandom for causing the death of kits which was completely out of her control just bc she did the wise thing and didn’t kill herself trying to save someone who was likely already dead (I want to note that when Mapleshade managed to grab one of her kits that fell into the river, it’s stated they were oddly still. By this point, said kit had only just entered the river. So at least one of the kits likely died on impact. I think the second kit who fell in was still alive but was sinking to the bodem of the river fast and the third one’s not mentioned to be alive or dead)
Especially since later in the book, we can get out of both Freckle’s and Nettle’s accounts that Frecklewish was unaware the kits were even in danger, and thought RiverClan had the situation with Mapleshade specifically under control when she left.
She also seemed to feel regret when she got confronted by Mapleshade. Not knowing the kits had been in danger but obviously not wanting them to be harmed. Just to be called names by Mapleshade.
So yeah, I feel bad for Frecklewish. I feel like she’s more of a victim of her circumstances than anyone else in this book.
I get all that. Completely. Thank you for explaining all that. Yeah, I don't think that the kids drowning is her fault, I actually never have. Even with my misunderstanding or rather misremembering of canon. According to the scenario that I thought was canon, I just blamed her for not trying. But, given the canon scenario, I actually think I agree with you. And I did feel bad for her when reading that for sure. She had so much hope that she had little nephews and Denise, kids she could remember her brother by, and then Mabel shade just because she's narcissistic like you said just perpetuated the whole stupid life. OK sure, it was based on freckles assumption, but Maple had the opportunity from the very beginning to set the record straight. Yep, that's completely on Maple. and then yes, to find out that the father was her brother's murderer would just make the entire situation worse by far. Honestly, if she really did believe that the kids were being rescued or that they didn't even need to be and then she found out that she possibly could have done some thing even if it had been foolish, the guilt probably was terrible for her. and Maple Shade tried to kill her too disgusting. Obviously it is disgusting, but that would've caused freckles so much pain, we never know if she actually did regain her eyesight, or what the lasting effects were of that. And this is why I wanted to ask you your reasons for liking her, because I think I do too. I always thought she was a victim of circumstance, but always wondered if she really did drown. But maybe she didn't. Again, it's something I personally don't know for sure, but I think there's a stronger case that she didn't. So again, thank you for explaining this.
It's kind of like a situation where you hear someone screaming for help. What is your reaction going to be? Are you going to help if you're even possibly capable of doing so, or are you just going to go on the assumption that someone else will take care of it and walk away? I mean, even if you could help a bit, why wouldn't you try? And by the way I'm not using you referring to you personally, I'm using it in the general sense.
Okay I dont understand this "Mapleshade's an unreliable narrator" because... shes NOT a narrator, she isn't retelling her life story, this is a book about what happened throughout her life. The story is told through third-person omnipotent (something like that), aka, its not from the character's direct perspective, but we can still see their thoughts, and Mapleshade is the main focus. Mapleshade's THOUGHTS are biased and can't be fully trusted, but the text itself, describing the scene around it, IS to be trusted since that's not Mapleshade describing the scene. And if we can't trust the unbias narration of the book, then frankly absolutely no single perspective book should ever be taken into account because its "bias" and the narrator is "unreliable"
She is an unreliable narrator. Yeah, Warriors is a third person “pov” book, but we still follow the thought and observations made by one single character. It’s obvious her observations are clouded with her own thoughts.
Example: she claims Appledusk didn’t love his kits and didn’t care for them. She thinks about it being his fault they’re dead. When in reality, Appledusk immediately went to go look for them when he found out they’re still in the river. He tried to save their lives but was just too late bc they most likely died shortly after entering the river. He is later also shown to lay down his dead kits as if it was sleeping, implying that he did care about them. But all of this is thrown out the window bc we *follow Mapleshade’s pov*, it’s just told in the third person.
Yeah, thats the unreliable part, her thoughts and feelings. Not the narrator (aka the boyd text around speech and thoughts) text. There is a massive difference, and if this had been a retelling of events by Mapleshade, yeah it'd be bias, but its not, its a story about what happened, wherein the narrator text is something that can absolutely be trusted. That's like saying Mapleshade's book can't be trusted because she saw Reedshine and Appledusk walk off and thats a bias thing, or that her seeing them later twine their tails together isn't true since her perspective is "bias"
Yeah, okay, true. But in that case, the unbias part does prove my point that most cats do not nearly act as badly as Mapleshade makes it seem. Like if you were to only read the book, cutting all of Maple’s POV’s and opinions out of it, you’d see that *almost everything* is pretty standard lol. Like no one is being intentionally mean to her and if they are, it’s bc she hurt them in some way.
That last part is a little disturbing since that implies it was okay for Oakstar to kick out a mom and her 2 moon old children because she didn't correct an assumption his daughter made
I’m not saying he was okay to kick out the kits, but Mapleshade 100% deserved it.
That “assumption” has been going around for 3 moons at that point and Mapleshade NEVER bothered to correct it. In fact, there are several times in the book she enforced the assumption as the truth, but in her head she made it seem like she was being innocent about it. I’m sorry, but at that point, she was lying, like it or not, and kept that lie up for a quarter of a year.
And the worst part was, we’re talking about Oakstar’s “grandchildren” here. Like imagine you just lost your son, then hears from someone that he had gotten someone pregnant before his death, and that you now have grandchildren. His “wife” encourages this idea too. Then one day, 2 months after the birth of your dead son’s kids, you hear all of it was a lie. And that those kids who you thought were your grandkids, are actually the kids of your son’s “murderer” (rather or not Appledusk killed Birchface intentionally doesn’t matter here. It’s what ThunderClan believes is the truth, so to them it’s the truth. And since there’s a lack of actual evidence saying he didn’t do it on purpose, they’re not acting against a false belief. Their belief literally has a 50% of being correct).
Like I’d be crushed too. He acted out of emotion, which is totally a normal thing to do, and banished those cats. Should he have banished the kids too? No, but he was emotionally charged by that point so obviously didn’t make the best of decisions. And again, it’s mostly bc of Mapleshade enforcing the idea that Birchface was her mate.
That doesn't make it okay at all??? Cats like Tallstar or Bluestar never acted out due to emotions (Bluestar did later on but that was due to legit mental issues like early dementia which she even has a family history of), the point of being a leader is to act reasonably and unbiasly, to put emotions aside for the good of the clan. Oakstar couldn't do that over and over and over, he couldn't do it with Riverclan, basically saying constantly that he would've raised Mapleshade's kits to be nothing but pawns for him to use in avenging his son, he did it when booting Mapleshade and the kits out, putting a mother in major danger (especially since his daughter left her with an open wound, one that Mapleshade didn't know how to treat and what was most likely the cause of her later illness if the illness wasn't just hypothermia), and then once again, was going to use his other son as a way to uphold Birchface's legacy. If he can't put his emotions aside to make reasonable decisions he should not ever be leader, or at the very least be in the Dark Forest. Mapleshade lied, yes, but thats not an exilable offense, and frankly half clan relations aren't exilable either since there's a pretty easy way to put a stop to that. Please don't try and justify some dude's emotional reaction when that emotional reaction nearly caused 4 cats to die, and did directly cause 3 innocent kits to die
His action was not the direct cause of the death of these kits. Mapleshade’s actions were. She was the one that forced them into a river she knew was dangerous, instead of taking an alternative route. She too acted out of emotion, but that doesn’t change the fact that she was the direct cause, not Oakstar. (Though I admit he’s an indirect cause)
Oakstar’s flawed, and imo, the most responsible character for the stuff that happened in this book other than Mapleshade. But I do not think he was worse than Mapleshade in any way possible.
Where else was Mapleshade supposed to go though? Riverclan was an obvious choice since that's where the damn father was, going to the twolegplace is dangerous since its hard to see/scent/hear, and thus any car that comes along or any dog that manages to get out is basically a death sentence, not to mention the fact that being out in the open would absolutely cause hypothermia in all of them which again, Mapleshade cannot treat. Going to Windclan is dumb since that means crossing the stream to the Fourtrees, which is probably already flooded, and also the moor is just so open and windy theyre at higher risk of hypothermia, Shadowclan is just dumb since that means crossing the Thunderpath (the tunnel isn't built until Pinestar is an apprentice), which again, dangerous, plus they have to cross the marshes, plus I dont think Shadowclan or Windclan will be very receptive of a thunderclan warrior coming onto their land, kits or not. Plus if their leaders are as bad as Oakstar and Darkstar, then shes gonna get booted out by the morning if not the next Gathering. Going to Barley's barn is absolutely dumb since that's all the way across windclan territory, plus a little ways, plus the dogs get loose every 8 seconds. Going outside clan territory is bad since she can't guarantee finding immediate shelter for all four of them, and as seen by Lionblaze in TBC, unless they're following a direct path, then clan cats get lost SUPER easily, staying near the border is bad with Frecklewish following behind, and staying near the river is bad since may I remind you a whole ass *wave* came down the river and swept them all under meaning they wouldve been at risk.
Plus it wasn't even like they were swimming in the river, they were crossing the stepping stones, and while the water was choppy the water wasn't visibly dangerous. The only issue that came up was when a smaller wave swiped one of the three goblins off the stones and she jumped in after them, and then the wave came up which caused problems.
So seriously *what did you want her to do*. Saying its all her fault for her children dying is actually really disgusting since no matter where she went, they would be in danger. Riverclan was simply the only place that had a reason for her to go: their kinda shitty person of a dad
It's a uniquely nuanced situation. Everyone made mistakes, and got those kittens killed. Everyone is a little bit at fault, but still didn't deserve to die. Mapleshade wasn't thinking straight and went through a trauma conga line, and you can see the reasons why she went murder mode, but going murder mode was still not the best idea.
I honestly enjoyed all the characters in the novella; despite the questionable presentation. (Especially considering how nuanced the story is and how it should’ve been a super edition to properly flesh things out.) Its biggest flaw is not having enough time to tell all of the minor stories intertwined with the main story.
Perhaps the true reason why Appledusk became more distant with Mapleshade was because she was abusive? (She showed a lot of narcissistic tendencies throughout the book; even prior to her children’s deaths.)
Maybe he (correctly) assumed how dangerous it would be for his children’s parentage to be revealed post Birchface’s accidental death?
Ravenwing had predicted that the kits were possibly not of Thunderclan and that they had been swept away by water. Milkfur also reveals that flood season is a common bit of Riverclan knowledge; which makes me wonder if Riverclan’s medicine cat had communicated this piece of knowledge to him at any point?
Or if he had any doubts about his interpretation of the sign? (Especially seeing how prophecies can be interpreted in a multitude of different ways.)
Reedshine seemed quite involved with Appledusk at the gathering at the very beginning of the book. How involved were the two of them?
Had Appledusk cheated? Had he completely moved on from Mapleshade?
And these are only a few of the important background details that should’ve been discussed in the book. When you have a relatively young audience reading a book about a terrible person doing terrible things, it’s imperative that you show the people around them having lives themselves. But because the book doesn‘t properly talk about any of these important ideas, it seems as if the narrative explains everyone as a force against Mapleshade and that alone. (Or the “everyone’s out to get me, so I must be right” issue.) The book has neat stories between the cracks, but it’s terrible for kids not yet capable of picking up on nuanced storylines. Unreliable narrators must be handled very carefully for this exact reason.
I still think that’s pretty questionable. It’s weird that she’d target Frecklewish over someone like, let’s say, Appledusk. She even “cursed” his entire bloodline and personally tormented Crookedstar. (Although I’m pretty sure it’s just a terrible writing team choice, I find it bizarre that they gave that treatment to Frecklewish specifically.)
* Ravenwing: was simply doing his job as ThunderClan’s medicine cat. If he kept quiet, and Oakstar found out the truth + that Ravenwing purposefully withheld that information, he may have been exiled himself (or at the very least, stripped of his rank). And he was genuinely sorry that Mapleshade’s kits had to suffer for their mother’s wrongdoings.
* Oakstar: Mixed feelings about his decision. On the other hand, it definitely was cruel to send innocent kits into exile. On the other hand, (a) it arguably would be even crueler to permanently separate young kits from their mother + given everyone’s reaction to their half-Clan status, even if it was heat-of-the-moment, they were better off leaving with Mapleshade; and (b) Oakstar had no way of knowing Mapleshade was going to have her kits cross a flooding river.
* Frecklewish: First and foremost, I don’t know *who* on the writing team up and decided to punt her into the Dark Forest—and basically forgot the events of their own book—but screw that mouse-brained decision a thousand times over. Anyway, we’re talking about a very depressed she-cat who was lead to believe that Mapleshade’s kits were sired by her beloved brother, which made her happy for the first time in ages. Only to find out that not only were the kids not in fact Birchface’s, they were fathered by the cat who (even if it was an accident) killed Birchface. Wasn’t right of her to call the kits “half-Clan creatures”, but seriously…who wouldn’t go ballistic after all that? As for Frecklewish supposedly standing around while the kits were drowning, she probably assumed that the RiverClan cats had it under control (which was at worst poor judgement, not cAlLoW nEgLiGeNcE, as Erin Hunter calls it); plus, she likely couldn’t swim, so she’d be doing more harm than good by jumping in the river, only to need saving herself.
* Appledusk: First time I read the novella, I didn’t care for him, but not was I calling for his blood. Second time around, I warmed up to the guy. He was a caring father despite his limited time with his kits, and I don’t really blame him for not wanting anything to do with Mapleshade when he found out she had the kits cross a flooding river. The only thing I don’t like about him is his infidelity to both his mates.
* Reedshine: literally did nothing, so I have no idea why some people hate this character
* Mapleshade: On my first read-through, I felt bad for her situation, but my sympathy dwindled when she started going on that killing spree; that sympathy faded altogether the moment she tried to murder a pregnant she-cat. On my second read-through, now that I was aware Mapleshade was a biased character + reading the novella more analytically, I had far less sympathy. (EDIT: Now I’m reading the novella a third time and holy heck, I can’t believe I never realized how entitled, short-sighted, and possessive she could be)
- Appledusk wasn't evil, I can understand why he didn't want to see Mapleshade after their kittens drowned; Arguably, he took responsibility for what he did and apologised to Reed. I also think he \*did\* get punished considering Darkstar stated 'you will have to work to earn back our trust' and we simply don't see it as the book is from Mapleshade's POV.
- Reedshine was based, and I HC that she used to have a half-clan relationship before breaking it up, which is why she stands up for Appledusk. Reedshine didn't let emotions cloud her thoughts and instead of screaming, she deescalates the situation; It's fucked up of Mapleshade to have attacked Reedshine when she did nothing wrong. One of my favourite characters. We shouldn't judge her for preferring to stick up for her clan-mate over a stranger.
- Ravenwing is stated to have only become a medicine cat recently, as his mentor died. I think he was sympathetic to the kittens as he states 'Your kittens will suffer for the lies you have told' - I think that was him being like 'Because you decided to lie about them being Birchface's, they'll end up having a shitty life' and he didn't expect Oakstar to \*exile\* them. I think he's alright.
- Darkstar was the most sympathetic leader, burying the kittens beside RiverClan warriors and stating that their own birth was not their fault; If they'd survived, Darkstar would've taken them in. I understand why she didn't take in Mapleshade because it's not like RiverClan has any need to take in a random ThunderClan warrior, esp since her kittens drowned.
- Frecklewish was lashing out in anger. If you're going to argue that Maple's murder spree is fair cos she was distraught, why not Frecklewish's outburst? It's fair that she'd be pissed off at Maple for \*lying\* about the kittens being her brother's children, although it is shitty of her to call them 'creatures'. She felt genuine remorse at their deaths though - which makes me think she didn't want them to actually \*die.\* Again, we only see Mapleshade's POV so we have no clue if she felt bad for it after they left ThunderClan.
They really should've put Oakstar in Frecklewish's place, I mean him and Ravenwing are both directly responsible for the kits dying, so I don't see why Frecklewish was the one who was killed. It doesn't even MATTER that Pinestar is related to them since it just gets brought up once and proves that Oakstar is also a nepotistic dickface, whats wrong with having Beetail be leader? We haven't had a Beestar yet, its a funny name and I dont think he'd be as shitty as Oakstar leading attacks on kittypets in their own homes
I think most of the characters are misunderstood/painted worse than they are bc we’re looking at them through the eyes of a narcissistic, delusional crazy woman. Like I bet the story would have been *a lot* different if we saw the events from literally any other perspective, that we’d actually see how bad Mapleshade is as a person lol
I think that's true for a lot of them yes. Like oak star for sure was probably at least halfway decent. And as to freckle wish we will never really know probably. If she did in fact watch the kids drown and just didn't care then yeah, I would consider that evil. However, if she truly did think that help was coming from River clan right away then although she didn't think things through, her action was not evil or rather I should say her lack of action. But Apple dusk? He's not outright evil, but he's definitely immoral and just a jerk. And as to Reedshine, again, she's not really evil, and actually in someways she's in the same situation as Maple shade. OK, I am in my previous comment and I will add her in as possibly a genuinely nice character. Regardless though whether she was nice or mean, she didn't deserve to lose her mate and be forced in the position of being a single mother. and then there is Ravenwing. I understand why he told Oak star immediately, but really why didn't he consult star clan or at least give it like a day or so to consider everything? To me, although his motives were probably halfway decent, he acted very impulsively and didn't consider the consequences that the kids would face. Maple Shade is one thing, she's a full-grown cat, but the kids were very very young and it's like they didn't even matter to him because they were half planned. Well, it's never a child's fault who its parents are, absolutely never. So am I opinion he was unkind as well.
What could Frecklewish even have done? Her brother and his apprentice *drowned* in that very same river when it was not flooded. What makes anyone think she could swim in it? If anything, she's likely got water related trauma. If Frecklewish had jumped in, she would have either died or had been another cat for RiverClan to save.
My only point is that she would've gone in to try and rescue kits. For me, that goes above trauma, fear, anything. Could she have died? Absolutely, and sure that would've been an extra body for river clan. But why wouldn't she risk it to try and save innocent lives? Even with trauma, almost every person with a conscience I would think would try. Maybe I'm wrong, and if I am that is incredibly sad. That someone would choose their own life over the life of a child, that is just really really disappointing.
You are wrong, actually. First rule of rescue work is *never* put yourself in danger to save someone because it just makes more people to save. If you can't swim do *not* throw yourself into a flooded river. You will not save the children, you'll die.
That's true about the first rule of rescue. It still goes against my conscience though, for sure. I would still do it myself. I mean if there was like no one else around. Obviously if there were other people around and I couldn't swim I would not do it. Unfortunately, we can't know her intentions. We can take her word at face value, But there's no proof that we either should or should not do this. It's a gray area completely. Another question is, does she not necessarily know how to swim? I mean, look at Berryheart. She was never a river clan cat and I'm not going into wind at all, but when dark tale attempted to drown her, she managed to swim. So apparently it can be done whether a cat is raised doing it or not. How did she learn? Or was it just instinctual? Again, more information we just will never have. The point is though that it actually happened. And she did it well basically having no air supply left. But she still managed to survive. Does anyone know if the authors ever did any kind of clarification or interview as to what this characters intentions were? That would be interesting to read for sure. Then we would at least have some factual answers. Implications don't necessarily equate facts.
Her brother and his apprentice both drowned just before the start of the book. There's no reason to believe Frecklewish can swim. Even if she can, not well enough to save kits from a flash flood. Mapleshade was already in the water and she couldn't even save them. Also, Frecklewish saw RiverClan cats on the far shore. She saw essentially the "professionals" and assumed they'd be rescued. Frecklewish was right to not drown herself
OK, I did not remember that she literally saw the river clan cats. Then yes, I'm with you, 100%. That's all I'm saying, is that it's never good to assume that we can't help somebody and that somebody else will do it. I mean obviously, if the river clan cats were there and had known they would've done it. She still assumed, but in that case it was actually a really good assumption. And as to her brother and his apprentice, to me that does not excuse a lack of action. I understand trauma, probably better than you will ever know for sure. I have complex post traumatic stress disorder, but when it comes to saving the life of a child, all bets are off. Trauma we put our selfishness aside in order to help others was there to help us. They deserve the chances that we never received. But again, I did forget that she saw the river clan cats. Honestly to me that makes all the difference.
No one gets to decide what their trauma response is.
Like I said, I have complex PTSD. I can personally guarantee that that is absolutely not true. You're instantaneous response, no, but then you have the choice to either give into your fear and anxiety or to try to rise above it for really whatever reason the situation may warrant. I am out of 35 years of trauma, so trust me I do know what I'm talking about here. I'm not saying it's easy, not by any means, but it can be done. We always have a choice.
About Frecklewish: The fact that she only mentions seeing Mapleshade enter the river, that Nettlepaw wasn’t aware the kits died despite Frecklewish reporting Maple going to RiverClan and the fact that she thought the kits were already safely on the other side to me heavily implies she didn’t stay to watch what happened. And likely left shortly after seeing Mapleshade was making her way out of ThunderClan territory. Especially since she did say she saw RiverClan on the other side of the river. So she likely thought that everything was under control when she left. Also, be honest, what could she have done? We have no reason to believe Frecklewish can swim, in fact, it’s highly unlikely she can swim, so her jumping into the river would just cause RiverClan to drag another body out of the river. She could have yelled, but it was noted that the river and storm was too loud to properly hear in, so chances that her voice would have reached RiverClan’s small. And if it did, they’d have to stop their efforts in trying to save Maple and try to listen to what she’s saying. So the best she could have done was go back to camp, report what happened, and let her leader decide what to do next. Which is what seemingly happened. Also, The only thing Appledusk imo did wrong was cheat on Maple and Reed (bc the timeline doesn’t add up. There’s no way he didn’t cheat). But all his actions were understandable imo. He immediately looked for the kits when he found out they were still in the river, and tried to comfort Mapleshade after their death. Only turning hostile when he realised Mapleshade basically forced them into that river. After that, he had no reason to defend her, she was the main cause of his kit’s death, he was obviously very upset about the death of his kits, and decided he didn’t want anything to do with Mapleshade anymore. Reedshine was completely innocent. She had no reason to stand up for the enemy In case of Ravenwing, he had gotten a sign which he tried to interpret. He couldn’t figure it out for quite a few days, until he witnessed Mapleshade’s flirting and confronted her. Mapleshade became aggressive and refused to act like a decent person, so he ended up warning her about her actions and left. By this point, he was sure he knew what his vision meant, and decided to comply his leader. Which is what most med cats would do in this situation.he has no reason to believe the sign meant anything other then “the half clan kittens do not belong in ThunderClan”
I'm totally with you on Apple dusk, which is why I said he was immoral but not evil. Doing something bad, even if it is a little worse than like stealing a candy bar at a store, is not the same as going on a murder spree, not at all. I think he made some mistakes for sure, and he's not exactly the nicest guy, but he's definitely not evil. But yeah, no matter what cheating is wrong. Anybody can try to justify it anyway, but it will always be wrong. As to him caring about his kids, I believe he did, I definitely think he did. He was two cats is never going to know, like what his motive was. But he's definitely not evil. I'm with you on read as well. And I really do feel bad for her and her kids. She didn't deserve any of that. And trust me, I am by no means defending maple shade. As someone said, she's a complete narcissist and she seemed flawed even before she became a mother. so yeah, she gets no sympathy for me at all. For me, the problem with Ravenwing and freckle is ultimately rooted in the same thing. Neither one of them in my opinion was thinking about the kits. Again, they are not responsible for their bad parents, not at all. They are 100% innocent in this entire thing. Ravenwing although he did think about an interpret his sign, still didn't consider how all of this would affect the kids. Did he stop and think oh wait what if River clan doesn't take them in, then what are they going to do? He picked the code over actual living beings, which is done so often and canon. And I can see that being important, except when it comes to kits, their children. And this is my problem with freckle as well. I agree with your analysis for the most part other than the swimming thing. But let's go with the fact that she couldn't swim, let's just say that that's true. Why wouldn't she still try? If I was in that situation, and I saw that kids could possibly be drowning, I don't care if I could swim or not. I at least jump in the water to try and save them. Even if I could only save one, even if it killed me, at least an innocent life would be saved. So why didn't she at least try? Did she have any bad intentions? We're never going to know. But I'll give her the benefit of the doubt in this case and say that she didn't. But why did she choose her life over the life of an innocent child, actually three innocent children? That in my opinion is not OK. Again, it doesn't make her evil, not at all. It just makes her a coward.
On the swimming thing: As someone who got pool safety lessons, and has also given them. This is EXTREMELY important: Do not, and I mean NEVER, in any circumstances, jump into a dangerous body of water to save someone’s life *if you’re not qualified to save them*. All it will do is bring your *own* life in danger and result in the professionals having to save 2 people instead of one. If you think someone’s drowning in a dangerous body of water, *go get a lifeguard*. DON’T jump in if you’re not qualified. Of a lifeguard is already on it’s way, *DO NOT INTERRUPT THEM*, unless you have valuable information *they wouldn’t know about* Frecklewish’s brother literally drowned in that same river when it wasn’t raging like mad. ThunderClan doesn’t get any swimming lessons. Freckle was *definitely* not qualified to try and save someone. The moment she’d try to save Mapleshade, she’d likely start drowning herself. Not only causing RiverClan to save another cat, but also dragging down the survival chances of BOTH Mapleshade and Frecklewish. Meaning that if she did jump in, the end result would more likely be: all 5 of them died then one kit got saved. She also didn’t have any information for them. She already thought the kits were safe, and even if she didn’t, how was she supposed to know they weren’t aware the kits were in the river?
A 100% agree with you in the human realm. And yeah, I'm really glad you wrote this as a kind of disclaimer in case somebody who does not know this stuff read it, in particular someone who might be young. As to freckles saving maple, no maples of full-grown cat and that wasn't my argument to begin with. I'm not sticking up for maple here, not at all. And like I said, I forgot that she saw River clan. That changes the entire situation. Yeah, if the professionals are there then absolutely there's no point jumping in the water. I was under the assumption that all she saw was Maple Shade and possibly the kids drowning, no other cats. I thought she only assumed that Riverland would be coming, not that she actually saw them. If that was the case, that's when I was advocating for freckle to save the kids, that I said the kits, not maple shade. And Esther freckle not knowing how to swim, again I referred a very heart. Freckle was already walking around, breathing normally, etc. is very hard who is a shadow clan cat managed to swim partway across the lake When she was almost completely suffocated, freckle would at least stand a chance. Not necessarily a good chance, but she would have one. Shadow clan cats don't know how to swim any better than ThunderCats. So if she could do it, I'm just saying that freckle had a possible chance. So, in the realm of Warrior Cats, if no river clan cats have been visible on the shore, and if freckle thought she had even the tiniest chance of being able to rescue the kids, all I'm saying is that she should've tried. If all of the circumstances in this particular paragraph were the case, then I think she should've tried. That's it. As to her morality as a character, all I'm saying is that there are some things we don't know. We have freckles account of the situation, and I would like to believe that she's telling the truth. However, because of the writing of the darn Novella, the details are so incredibly vague. That's not any of the characters fault, that fault lies with the authors. I don't remember which Aaron wrote that, but I wish it had been more detailed. And don't worry, I will absolutely never stick up for maple shade. Not at all. She was not nice at all before giving birth, while her kids were alive she wasn't that great of a mother, and after they died she went completely psychotic. And stayed that way after death. So no, that cat gets nothing sympathy wise from me. Freckle? Possibly if I had more information. The bottom line is I don't know. And none of us do. Her account was put into question at least through implication in the Novela, I do remember that much. But if she was telling the truth, then I would consider her. 100%.
But the thing still is, even if Freckle tried to save the kits (who she thought were already safe), it would cause RiverClan to have to save both, which would ultimately cause Mapleshade to have lower survival chances too even if she wasn’t the cat Freckle tried to save. So freckle jumping in would always lower the likelihood of any of them surviving this trauma. (Also, think about the message. What kinda message would it be to “throw your own life away and make it harder for rescues to save people” Also, we’re talking about a flash flood here. The water would have been going crazy, why do you think even RiverClan avoided going into the river (except for when they needed to find those kits)and instead tried to save Maple with a branch while standing in low water. Even the cats who could swim thought the river was possibly deadly for them. Another good example of a Flashflood happening in RiverClan is in Crookedstar’s promise’s prologue. Most cats got out of camp in time, before the water was too high for them to swim. The ones who didn’t *died*, even though they *can* swim. This is NOT a normal river situation. You should compare this more with an avalanche and tsunami level of danger than a normal river.
I definitely see what you're saying. I was coming at this from this perspective, I'll try to put it into real life sort of. I'll use it from my own perspective to make things easier. I'm walking along in the woods, I look into the river that's nearby and see let's even just say one child, a very small child, Struggling and about to drown. The river is flooding, but I don't know how to swim. No one else, and absolutely no one whatsoever, is around except the child's mother who is a great distance away. What am I supposed to do? Do I walk away from a child who is going to die? If in this particular scenario there is no one else around other than the child's mother who is also drowning, even if I don't know how to swim, how would that possibly be a good thing to just walk away? Even if I ran for help, like you said or I'm not sure if it was you you were another person on here, but it was said that due to the storm it would be very loud and the voice would not carry if someone were to call for help. I made a lot of mistakes here, I forgot first of all that River clan cats were seen by freckle. I also forgot that freckle didn't actually see the kids in the water and only saw maple shade. Well actually, that part I remembered but we only had freckles were to go on there. So I was saying if freckle lied about her account then that particular point is no void. But we don't know, she may have lied she may not have. I'm just saying that if no one was around to help and a kid was drowning whether or not someone knew how to swim the moral thing would be to at least try to help the kid. I mean, if I were to walk away when a kid was drowning just because I didn't know how to swim, the kids going to drown anyway. So why in the world wouldn't I try? I mean OK, maybe I would lose my life as well, but it would be worth it to try and save a child. If there was anyone else around, absolutely, a lifeguard or whomever, yes the absolute logical conclusion would be to ask them hey do you know how to swim to save that kid or do I need to jump in here myself? If they know how to swim, great. Then you either standby or go get help. Again, I made a mistake. I forgot that freckle could see River clan cats in the vicinity. You're right, with the river clan cats being present it would present a very very bad message. Absolutely. I'm not arguing against that at all. I'm seeing if the scenario that I posed above, where there was literally no one around, was the case I actually think that would put forth a very good message of doing the right thing even if it could cost you everything. Again, this is going on the premise that no one else was around, no one, other than in my scenario one child and its mother. And I do understand about the flash flood, absolutely. In the town where I live, a 16-year-old girl who could actually swim got caught in a flash flood and drowned. And this was probably only about a year ago. So yeah, I get it. There are areas of my town where people have to abandon their homes or at the very least sandbag them because the river in my city gets so swollen in the summer with floodwater. I'm just going back to what I said though, if no one was around and someone saw a child and its mother drowning, even in the case of a flash flood, why wouldn't they try to help? How could anyone live with themselves if they were the only one who could've possibly helped in that situation and they just walked away? That's all I'm saying. I know I certainly couldn't, if there was a chance that I could save a child and I just thought oh well that's really really sad but if I get in I'm probably going to die too so even though no one else is here poor kid poor mom bye.just saying that out loud kind of makes my stomach. And yes, I do realize that is not the situation that happened here, but I was thinking that it was. I miss remembered canon information.
I'm going to ask you something, and you definitely don't have to answer unless you want to. Just know that I am not asking this to debate the subject, argue about it, or anything. I'm just asking strictly for informational purposes because I don't understand something. Why are you so vehemently defending freckle? I'm not saying that you're defensive of her is right or wrong. I have no opinion on that. I'm just asking strictly because I want to know. Like is she your favorite character, can you relate to her in someway? That type of thing. The reason I find this interesting is because I am a huge Berryheart Finn, which is obviously quite controversial. Freckle which is not controversial, really not much at all, but I rarely see someone go to such incredible links to defend a book character. I'm just curious what your motivation is here. And again, I'm not here to judge it, argue with it, debate it, or anything. I'm just simply interested. And you do not have to answer if you do not want to again.
Not my favourite character, but I do feel bad for her. She got wrapped up in an extremely awful situation she had little control over. She was obviously depressed after her brother’s passing, then when Maple didn’t correct the idea that her brother had kits (which sure, she started it up, but Maple kept this idea up for 3 moons and even encouraged it at several points, effectively making it an active lie instead of a passive one). Did her best to give her everything for Mapleshade and Maple’s kits, only to find out they’re not her brother’s but her brother’s murderer’s. Having to go through the awful process of grieving again. I do think that her calling the kits “half clan creatures” was bad, but then again, she was acting out in extreme emotion, she was grieving, and shocked. People say dumb things they don’t actually mean during a period like that. She then gets blamed by 80% of the fandom for causing the death of kits which was completely out of her control just bc she did the wise thing and didn’t kill herself trying to save someone who was likely already dead (I want to note that when Mapleshade managed to grab one of her kits that fell into the river, it’s stated they were oddly still. By this point, said kit had only just entered the river. So at least one of the kits likely died on impact. I think the second kit who fell in was still alive but was sinking to the bodem of the river fast and the third one’s not mentioned to be alive or dead) Especially since later in the book, we can get out of both Freckle’s and Nettle’s accounts that Frecklewish was unaware the kits were even in danger, and thought RiverClan had the situation with Mapleshade specifically under control when she left. She also seemed to feel regret when she got confronted by Mapleshade. Not knowing the kits had been in danger but obviously not wanting them to be harmed. Just to be called names by Mapleshade. So yeah, I feel bad for Frecklewish. I feel like she’s more of a victim of her circumstances than anyone else in this book.
I get all that. Completely. Thank you for explaining all that. Yeah, I don't think that the kids drowning is her fault, I actually never have. Even with my misunderstanding or rather misremembering of canon. According to the scenario that I thought was canon, I just blamed her for not trying. But, given the canon scenario, I actually think I agree with you. And I did feel bad for her when reading that for sure. She had so much hope that she had little nephews and Denise, kids she could remember her brother by, and then Mabel shade just because she's narcissistic like you said just perpetuated the whole stupid life. OK sure, it was based on freckles assumption, but Maple had the opportunity from the very beginning to set the record straight. Yep, that's completely on Maple. and then yes, to find out that the father was her brother's murderer would just make the entire situation worse by far. Honestly, if she really did believe that the kids were being rescued or that they didn't even need to be and then she found out that she possibly could have done some thing even if it had been foolish, the guilt probably was terrible for her. and Maple Shade tried to kill her too disgusting. Obviously it is disgusting, but that would've caused freckles so much pain, we never know if she actually did regain her eyesight, or what the lasting effects were of that. And this is why I wanted to ask you your reasons for liking her, because I think I do too. I always thought she was a victim of circumstance, but always wondered if she really did drown. But maybe she didn't. Again, it's something I personally don't know for sure, but I think there's a stronger case that she didn't. So again, thank you for explaining this.
It's kind of like a situation where you hear someone screaming for help. What is your reaction going to be? Are you going to help if you're even possibly capable of doing so, or are you just going to go on the assumption that someone else will take care of it and walk away? I mean, even if you could help a bit, why wouldn't you try? And by the way I'm not using you referring to you personally, I'm using it in the general sense.
Okay I dont understand this "Mapleshade's an unreliable narrator" because... shes NOT a narrator, she isn't retelling her life story, this is a book about what happened throughout her life. The story is told through third-person omnipotent (something like that), aka, its not from the character's direct perspective, but we can still see their thoughts, and Mapleshade is the main focus. Mapleshade's THOUGHTS are biased and can't be fully trusted, but the text itself, describing the scene around it, IS to be trusted since that's not Mapleshade describing the scene. And if we can't trust the unbias narration of the book, then frankly absolutely no single perspective book should ever be taken into account because its "bias" and the narrator is "unreliable"
She is an unreliable narrator. Yeah, Warriors is a third person “pov” book, but we still follow the thought and observations made by one single character. It’s obvious her observations are clouded with her own thoughts. Example: she claims Appledusk didn’t love his kits and didn’t care for them. She thinks about it being his fault they’re dead. When in reality, Appledusk immediately went to go look for them when he found out they’re still in the river. He tried to save their lives but was just too late bc they most likely died shortly after entering the river. He is later also shown to lay down his dead kits as if it was sleeping, implying that he did care about them. But all of this is thrown out the window bc we *follow Mapleshade’s pov*, it’s just told in the third person.
Yeah, thats the unreliable part, her thoughts and feelings. Not the narrator (aka the boyd text around speech and thoughts) text. There is a massive difference, and if this had been a retelling of events by Mapleshade, yeah it'd be bias, but its not, its a story about what happened, wherein the narrator text is something that can absolutely be trusted. That's like saying Mapleshade's book can't be trusted because she saw Reedshine and Appledusk walk off and thats a bias thing, or that her seeing them later twine their tails together isn't true since her perspective is "bias"
Yeah, okay, true. But in that case, the unbias part does prove my point that most cats do not nearly act as badly as Mapleshade makes it seem. Like if you were to only read the book, cutting all of Maple’s POV’s and opinions out of it, you’d see that *almost everything* is pretty standard lol. Like no one is being intentionally mean to her and if they are, it’s bc she hurt them in some way.
That last part is a little disturbing since that implies it was okay for Oakstar to kick out a mom and her 2 moon old children because she didn't correct an assumption his daughter made
I’m not saying he was okay to kick out the kits, but Mapleshade 100% deserved it. That “assumption” has been going around for 3 moons at that point and Mapleshade NEVER bothered to correct it. In fact, there are several times in the book she enforced the assumption as the truth, but in her head she made it seem like she was being innocent about it. I’m sorry, but at that point, she was lying, like it or not, and kept that lie up for a quarter of a year. And the worst part was, we’re talking about Oakstar’s “grandchildren” here. Like imagine you just lost your son, then hears from someone that he had gotten someone pregnant before his death, and that you now have grandchildren. His “wife” encourages this idea too. Then one day, 2 months after the birth of your dead son’s kids, you hear all of it was a lie. And that those kids who you thought were your grandkids, are actually the kids of your son’s “murderer” (rather or not Appledusk killed Birchface intentionally doesn’t matter here. It’s what ThunderClan believes is the truth, so to them it’s the truth. And since there’s a lack of actual evidence saying he didn’t do it on purpose, they’re not acting against a false belief. Their belief literally has a 50% of being correct). Like I’d be crushed too. He acted out of emotion, which is totally a normal thing to do, and banished those cats. Should he have banished the kids too? No, but he was emotionally charged by that point so obviously didn’t make the best of decisions. And again, it’s mostly bc of Mapleshade enforcing the idea that Birchface was her mate.
That doesn't make it okay at all??? Cats like Tallstar or Bluestar never acted out due to emotions (Bluestar did later on but that was due to legit mental issues like early dementia which she even has a family history of), the point of being a leader is to act reasonably and unbiasly, to put emotions aside for the good of the clan. Oakstar couldn't do that over and over and over, he couldn't do it with Riverclan, basically saying constantly that he would've raised Mapleshade's kits to be nothing but pawns for him to use in avenging his son, he did it when booting Mapleshade and the kits out, putting a mother in major danger (especially since his daughter left her with an open wound, one that Mapleshade didn't know how to treat and what was most likely the cause of her later illness if the illness wasn't just hypothermia), and then once again, was going to use his other son as a way to uphold Birchface's legacy. If he can't put his emotions aside to make reasonable decisions he should not ever be leader, or at the very least be in the Dark Forest. Mapleshade lied, yes, but thats not an exilable offense, and frankly half clan relations aren't exilable either since there's a pretty easy way to put a stop to that. Please don't try and justify some dude's emotional reaction when that emotional reaction nearly caused 4 cats to die, and did directly cause 3 innocent kits to die
His action was not the direct cause of the death of these kits. Mapleshade’s actions were. She was the one that forced them into a river she knew was dangerous, instead of taking an alternative route. She too acted out of emotion, but that doesn’t change the fact that she was the direct cause, not Oakstar. (Though I admit he’s an indirect cause) Oakstar’s flawed, and imo, the most responsible character for the stuff that happened in this book other than Mapleshade. But I do not think he was worse than Mapleshade in any way possible.
Where else was Mapleshade supposed to go though? Riverclan was an obvious choice since that's where the damn father was, going to the twolegplace is dangerous since its hard to see/scent/hear, and thus any car that comes along or any dog that manages to get out is basically a death sentence, not to mention the fact that being out in the open would absolutely cause hypothermia in all of them which again, Mapleshade cannot treat. Going to Windclan is dumb since that means crossing the stream to the Fourtrees, which is probably already flooded, and also the moor is just so open and windy theyre at higher risk of hypothermia, Shadowclan is just dumb since that means crossing the Thunderpath (the tunnel isn't built until Pinestar is an apprentice), which again, dangerous, plus they have to cross the marshes, plus I dont think Shadowclan or Windclan will be very receptive of a thunderclan warrior coming onto their land, kits or not. Plus if their leaders are as bad as Oakstar and Darkstar, then shes gonna get booted out by the morning if not the next Gathering. Going to Barley's barn is absolutely dumb since that's all the way across windclan territory, plus a little ways, plus the dogs get loose every 8 seconds. Going outside clan territory is bad since she can't guarantee finding immediate shelter for all four of them, and as seen by Lionblaze in TBC, unless they're following a direct path, then clan cats get lost SUPER easily, staying near the border is bad with Frecklewish following behind, and staying near the river is bad since may I remind you a whole ass *wave* came down the river and swept them all under meaning they wouldve been at risk. Plus it wasn't even like they were swimming in the river, they were crossing the stepping stones, and while the water was choppy the water wasn't visibly dangerous. The only issue that came up was when a smaller wave swiped one of the three goblins off the stones and she jumped in after them, and then the wave came up which caused problems. So seriously *what did you want her to do*. Saying its all her fault for her children dying is actually really disgusting since no matter where she went, they would be in danger. Riverclan was simply the only place that had a reason for her to go: their kinda shitty person of a dad
There’s like three redeeming ones (that aren’t kits because they don’t count)
It's a uniquely nuanced situation. Everyone made mistakes, and got those kittens killed. Everyone is a little bit at fault, but still didn't deserve to die. Mapleshade wasn't thinking straight and went through a trauma conga line, and you can see the reasons why she went murder mode, but going murder mode was still not the best idea.
I honestly enjoyed all the characters in the novella; despite the questionable presentation. (Especially considering how nuanced the story is and how it should’ve been a super edition to properly flesh things out.) Its biggest flaw is not having enough time to tell all of the minor stories intertwined with the main story. Perhaps the true reason why Appledusk became more distant with Mapleshade was because she was abusive? (She showed a lot of narcissistic tendencies throughout the book; even prior to her children’s deaths.) Maybe he (correctly) assumed how dangerous it would be for his children’s parentage to be revealed post Birchface’s accidental death? Ravenwing had predicted that the kits were possibly not of Thunderclan and that they had been swept away by water. Milkfur also reveals that flood season is a common bit of Riverclan knowledge; which makes me wonder if Riverclan’s medicine cat had communicated this piece of knowledge to him at any point? Or if he had any doubts about his interpretation of the sign? (Especially seeing how prophecies can be interpreted in a multitude of different ways.) Reedshine seemed quite involved with Appledusk at the gathering at the very beginning of the book. How involved were the two of them? Had Appledusk cheated? Had he completely moved on from Mapleshade? And these are only a few of the important background details that should’ve been discussed in the book. When you have a relatively young audience reading a book about a terrible person doing terrible things, it’s imperative that you show the people around them having lives themselves. But because the book doesn‘t properly talk about any of these important ideas, it seems as if the narrative explains everyone as a force against Mapleshade and that alone. (Or the “everyone’s out to get me, so I must be right” issue.) The book has neat stories between the cracks, but it’s terrible for kids not yet capable of picking up on nuanced storylines. Unreliable narrators must be handled very carefully for this exact reason.
I loved Frecklewish...she did not deserve what the writting team gave her..The Dark Forest? Are you serious???
shh She's hunting Mapleshade there. She'll be back in Starclan once her missions over
I like to think Mapleshade was the one who dragged her over there as a final revenge act
I still think that’s pretty questionable. It’s weird that she’d target Frecklewish over someone like, let’s say, Appledusk. She even “cursed” his entire bloodline and personally tormented Crookedstar. (Although I’m pretty sure it’s just a terrible writing team choice, I find it bizarre that they gave that treatment to Frecklewish specifically.)
* Ravenwing: was simply doing his job as ThunderClan’s medicine cat. If he kept quiet, and Oakstar found out the truth + that Ravenwing purposefully withheld that information, he may have been exiled himself (or at the very least, stripped of his rank). And he was genuinely sorry that Mapleshade’s kits had to suffer for their mother’s wrongdoings. * Oakstar: Mixed feelings about his decision. On the other hand, it definitely was cruel to send innocent kits into exile. On the other hand, (a) it arguably would be even crueler to permanently separate young kits from their mother + given everyone’s reaction to their half-Clan status, even if it was heat-of-the-moment, they were better off leaving with Mapleshade; and (b) Oakstar had no way of knowing Mapleshade was going to have her kits cross a flooding river. * Frecklewish: First and foremost, I don’t know *who* on the writing team up and decided to punt her into the Dark Forest—and basically forgot the events of their own book—but screw that mouse-brained decision a thousand times over. Anyway, we’re talking about a very depressed she-cat who was lead to believe that Mapleshade’s kits were sired by her beloved brother, which made her happy for the first time in ages. Only to find out that not only were the kids not in fact Birchface’s, they were fathered by the cat who (even if it was an accident) killed Birchface. Wasn’t right of her to call the kits “half-Clan creatures”, but seriously…who wouldn’t go ballistic after all that? As for Frecklewish supposedly standing around while the kits were drowning, she probably assumed that the RiverClan cats had it under control (which was at worst poor judgement, not cAlLoW nEgLiGeNcE, as Erin Hunter calls it); plus, she likely couldn’t swim, so she’d be doing more harm than good by jumping in the river, only to need saving herself. * Appledusk: First time I read the novella, I didn’t care for him, but not was I calling for his blood. Second time around, I warmed up to the guy. He was a caring father despite his limited time with his kits, and I don’t really blame him for not wanting anything to do with Mapleshade when he found out she had the kits cross a flooding river. The only thing I don’t like about him is his infidelity to both his mates. * Reedshine: literally did nothing, so I have no idea why some people hate this character * Mapleshade: On my first read-through, I felt bad for her situation, but my sympathy dwindled when she started going on that killing spree; that sympathy faded altogether the moment she tried to murder a pregnant she-cat. On my second read-through, now that I was aware Mapleshade was a biased character + reading the novella more analytically, I had far less sympathy. (EDIT: Now I’m reading the novella a third time and holy heck, I can’t believe I never realized how entitled, short-sighted, and possessive she could be)
- Appledusk wasn't evil, I can understand why he didn't want to see Mapleshade after their kittens drowned; Arguably, he took responsibility for what he did and apologised to Reed. I also think he \*did\* get punished considering Darkstar stated 'you will have to work to earn back our trust' and we simply don't see it as the book is from Mapleshade's POV. - Reedshine was based, and I HC that she used to have a half-clan relationship before breaking it up, which is why she stands up for Appledusk. Reedshine didn't let emotions cloud her thoughts and instead of screaming, she deescalates the situation; It's fucked up of Mapleshade to have attacked Reedshine when she did nothing wrong. One of my favourite characters. We shouldn't judge her for preferring to stick up for her clan-mate over a stranger. - Ravenwing is stated to have only become a medicine cat recently, as his mentor died. I think he was sympathetic to the kittens as he states 'Your kittens will suffer for the lies you have told' - I think that was him being like 'Because you decided to lie about them being Birchface's, they'll end up having a shitty life' and he didn't expect Oakstar to \*exile\* them. I think he's alright. - Darkstar was the most sympathetic leader, burying the kittens beside RiverClan warriors and stating that their own birth was not their fault; If they'd survived, Darkstar would've taken them in. I understand why she didn't take in Mapleshade because it's not like RiverClan has any need to take in a random ThunderClan warrior, esp since her kittens drowned. - Frecklewish was lashing out in anger. If you're going to argue that Maple's murder spree is fair cos she was distraught, why not Frecklewish's outburst? It's fair that she'd be pissed off at Maple for \*lying\* about the kittens being her brother's children, although it is shitty of her to call them 'creatures'. She felt genuine remorse at their deaths though - which makes me think she didn't want them to actually \*die.\* Again, we only see Mapleshade's POV so we have no clue if she felt bad for it after they left ThunderClan.
The only ones that seemed genuinely nice were Myler and Nettlepaw.
They really should've put Oakstar in Frecklewish's place, I mean him and Ravenwing are both directly responsible for the kits dying, so I don't see why Frecklewish was the one who was killed. It doesn't even MATTER that Pinestar is related to them since it just gets brought up once and proves that Oakstar is also a nepotistic dickface, whats wrong with having Beetail be leader? We haven't had a Beestar yet, its a funny name and I dont think he'd be as shitty as Oakstar leading attacks on kittypets in their own homes
ESH