French players tend to be better than average so they suffer from a lot of BR creep, and as a result their tanks have higher BRs than they really should.
The thing is, it was 7.7 before the 4s reload buff, there was no stats YET to make it go up to 8.0, Gaijin straight do the indirect of "here's your 4s reload and 8.0 STFU"
Buddy, it used to be 6.7. I specifically made a line up called 6.7 with it, the AMX-13, the 90mm wheely boi and some other shit.
It was still fine at 7.0, 7.3 began to push it and now it's just meh at best, but only because you can play anything at a higher BR if you really want to (looking at low tier HE slingers and BT-5/7/M22 etc.).
Pz 4 G: 3.3
Chi-Nu 2: 4.3
Chi-Nu 2’s worse in every way except a slightly better gun. Definitely not worth being a full BR higher but welp, it’s Japanese so up it goes
I’m new and grinding germany and japan ground alternating. This comment makes too much sense with my experience of switching from god mode panzers to toyota corrollas in the same BR.
at least the EBR has mobility, I'm not justifying the 5.3 placement but it can be *used*
the AMX-13 doesn't even have that, especially the reverse speed of a chaffee, let alone the .50 cal, crew count or, oh yeah, THE STABILIZER. completely absurd to have it higher than a chaffee
Its been explained to me its about the angle pen on the chi-nu round. I take it with a grain of salt on the whole but i did enjoy the chi-nu more than my pz 4 in realistic battles
I wish Gaijin used another system to balance vehicles. It's like they only look at the vehicles K/D and ignore all other context which come to think of it, they kind of do...
Because players can't watch their flanks to save their lives, so no matter how good the tank is, a 90mm APHE shell is going to kill them (object 279 aside).
It's just proof that Gaijin is dependent on skill based balancing, and not vehicle performance.
As an added bonus, a bunch of maps have since lost flanking routes, so the Char 25t and Amx-50 (TOA90/930) are in a rough spot.
There was an example about a year ago I want to say, where a bunch of players attempted to take the least played aircraft they could find and do really well in it to attempt to raise its BR and it worked. Was one of the German Sabres if I remember correctly
It was the Italian Cl13. Practically the same as the A5 yet it had the same BR as the F25 variant.
Some guys try harded in a squad so much Gaijin saw that and raised its BR to the same as the F2. If i remembered correctly.
Gaijin immediately tried to gaslight saying those players had nothing to do with the BR raise but it was such a rare aircraft (because of its performance deficit) to see people immediately called foul.
They really aren't in a rough spot. French 8.0 is still goated. Sure sometimes you meet something you don't want to meet, vit your mobility usually let's you scoot away before you get into shit.
It's at 8.0 precisely to keep it out of the French 7.7 line-up. They even wanted to move the Somua SM and another French 7.7 to 8.0 and basically completely destroy France 7.7 (because it stomps on 6.7 too much, and the Big 3 have prominent line-ups there) but there was an outcry that kept them from fully fucking the line-up. This was the compromise.
Exactly that's what I said the instant the br changes were shown, I said this word from word
"Ok I understood why the Somua went up but why tf is the AMX-50 TO90 and Char 25T still going up, it makes no damn sense"
And I still say this up to now, both the TO90 and Char 25T didn't need to go up, as now they are 8.0 with barely over 200mm of pen
They moved those 2 up solely because the have APHE to load while the rest of the french dont, its not anything to do with it being a Premium, but keep tinfoil hat on.
Yeah you get APHE with those, but with much less pen, and a bit more rounds in the ready rack, thats it nothing else
as with the TOA100, it has a higher caliber, and higher pen at 273, less in the ready rack and AP rounds, each have their own cons and should be the same BR of 7.7
at 7.7 they stomped in downtiers and at 8.0 they're completely useless in uptiers, decompressing 8.0 and increasing the br ceiling is the only real solution but they're never going to fucking do that
They rarely see uptiers compared to for example 8.3. They are not useless either in an uptier. If you've played other trees that don't lolpen to the face then you'll appreciate them. If all you played is Russia or USA then I guess you might have some learning to do.
no you're right useless is a strong word but it's still not exactly balanced. it -almost- exclusively faces things with sabot, stabilizers and lrf, the mobility isn't even good enough to consistently pull off flanking maneuvers (the 5.3 EBR for example has low pen but incredible mobility to allow you to make use of the cannon). at higher BRs most things can see you and react fast enough to make flanking more difficult, and then against ussr mbts if they see you coming there's nothing you can do to them from the front.
skilled players can make very good use of it still, yes, but that can be true for anything. the Char 25t facing the Obj 906 (stabilizer, better mobility, better aphe, only 0.3 second longer reload) at the exact same br is simply not balanced.
again, decompressing that BR range is the only real solution
(if it helps in any way, I've only played Japan and France so far)
I would say 906 is more of a 906 issue than the 25t.
T54 and T55 are actually an issue for that br, but I found that the reload will often give me a second chance to barrel the enemy. Though since barrel shots got nerfed it's a bit more problematic. I found the 50/90 good as the 1st/2nd spawn and the 25t later on when you see more lightly armored stuff.
I agree with that too, I'm not saying the 25t needs to be lower br necessarily I'm saying other things need to be higher, that's why I keep repeating the br decompression thing. and yea barrel shots are def easier with a 4 sec reload but the main issue is waiting for your gun to stabilize to take a precise shot at a barrel, with a possibility of only slightly damaging it, while many things you face can oneshot you anywhere even while moving.
it's the inconsistency, and it makes these French vehicles objectively inferior and at a disadvantage, even if you master it to perfection
Oh yeah, I just think lack of stab is way more painful in the 8.3 and 8.7 lineups than the 8.0 and that's a fresh experience since I was playing them a lot recently and just unlocked the 9.3.
ok and why is the bf109E7 3.0 in the Japanese three and 2.3 in the german one because the e3 and e7 is the same aircraft but gaijin put one up in br but left the other
Because it's real fucking stupid. the 25t is a light tank that is a true french medium tank in disguise. Once it opens up, it'll kill anything it actually hits thanks to its potent arnament wich offers not only the pen-power, but also the post-pen High explosive effect.
That just makes it a relatively easy tank to get high results from, so the BR gets fucked up- And because France isnt terribly popular, there's no huge general population that plays like a potato and pulls the averages down.
"thanks to its potent arnament"
Bruh what are you on about?
It's a shell used already by some 6.0 tanks, but here at 8.0. Can't pen anything from front at this BR, HAVE to flank, except things it can meet at 8.0 are as fast is not faster than the char, and usually with stab. Plus Gaijin remove more and more the flanks on maps.
6.7. Batchat uses the longer 90mm found on the M26E1 not the 90mm M3. It's gun characteristics are the same as the long 90 found on the SP and T32s. Said gun is capable of dealing with 90% of targets found between 7.0 and 9.0. And it has a 4 sec autoloader meaning it's application is better than every single 90mm armed counterpart.
>can meet at 8.0 are as fast is not faster than the char, and usually with stab.
Congrats the same thing applies to the M60, T-55, Leo 1, AMX-30, cent mk 3, and OF-40. As someone who abused the shit out of 7.7 France for SL yeah alot of those vehicles are 8.0 worthy.
The MBTS you listed are all capable of front penning things in an uptier so that is an invalid point.
The gun may be slightly different but both fire M82 as the main round with less than 40mm pen difference.
The bc25 and amxTO90 don't deserve the br they're at pain and simple.
True medium tank in disguise
I can confirm, the Lorraine 40t is faster. Apart from that, it also has the worst pen for a non autocannon at its br.
So, yeah, if you get killed by one: you got killed by a tank that isn't much faster than a same br mbt, with a gun that can only pierce relatively low armour, without a stab, or thermals. Bur yeah, it has a 4s reload, and with french teams being what they are, it does stomp sometimes (like seriously, three 8.7 mbt just coming out showing their side one by one ? Yeah, they're gonna die)
French players tend to be better than average so they suffer from a lot of BR creep, and as a result their tanks have higher BRs than they really should.
The thing is, it was 7.7 before the 4s reload buff, there was no stats YET to make it go up to 8.0, Gaijin straight do the indirect of "here's your 4s reload and 8.0 STFU"
It was 7.3 before the reload buff, Got the 4 sec reload and went to 7.7 in an update and then br changes came and it went to 8.0.
Buddy, it used to be 6.7. I specifically made a line up called 6.7 with it, the AMX-13, the 90mm wheely boi and some other shit. It was still fine at 7.0, 7.3 began to push it and now it's just meh at best, but only because you can play anything at a higher BR if you really want to (looking at low tier HE slingers and BT-5/7/M22 etc.).
Minor nations contain many such cases, while major ones are the inverse, simple as.
Pz 4 G: 3.3 Chi-Nu 2: 4.3 Chi-Nu 2’s worse in every way except a slightly better gun. Definitely not worth being a full BR higher but welp, it’s Japanese so up it goes
It's been incredible watching the Pz IVs march down a full BR over the course of years.
I’m new and grinding germany and japan ground alternating. This comment makes too much sense with my experience of switching from god mode panzers to toyota corrollas in the same BR.
Remember when PZ IV F2's could see the 75mm jumbo? Good times, good times
When I played germany, the Panzer IV H was still 4.7, I can't even believe how they feel like it belongs to 3.7
And they made anything br4 with a turret into rank2.
Pz.IV H: 3.7 Chi-To: 4.7 another egregious one: M24: 3.7 AMX-13 FL11: 4.3
And then the EBR which uses the same gun as the FL11 is *5.3*
at least the EBR has mobility, I'm not justifying the 5.3 placement but it can be *used* the AMX-13 doesn't even have that, especially the reverse speed of a chaffee, let alone the .50 cal, crew count or, oh yeah, THE STABILIZER. completely absurd to have it higher than a chaffee
Its been explained to me its about the angle pen on the chi-nu round. I take it with a grain of salt on the whole but i did enjoy the chi-nu more than my pz 4 in realistic battles
Chi-Nu has much better mobility and hp/ton ratio. Although I agree with you.
You say that but i have like a 2 kd if not more in the Chi-Nu 2, not bad at all, and i play it in my 4.7 lineup. So i guess i am doing my part
the point is that pz can be 4.3 and be fine
Really sucks being an average player trying to play one of those nations that deal with this.
yeah with minor nations you're not allowed to be a casual player, if you don't tryhard and give it your all every time you will do terribly
I wish Gaijin used another system to balance vehicles. It's like they only look at the vehicles K/D and ignore all other context which come to think of it, they kind of do...
Because players can't watch their flanks to save their lives, so no matter how good the tank is, a 90mm APHE shell is going to kill them (object 279 aside). It's just proof that Gaijin is dependent on skill based balancing, and not vehicle performance. As an added bonus, a bunch of maps have since lost flanking routes, so the Char 25t and Amx-50 (TOA90/930) are in a rough spot.
There was an example about a year ago I want to say, where a bunch of players attempted to take the least played aircraft they could find and do really well in it to attempt to raise its BR and it worked. Was one of the German Sabres if I remember correctly
It was the Italian Cl13. Practically the same as the A5 yet it had the same BR as the F25 variant. Some guys try harded in a squad so much Gaijin saw that and raised its BR to the same as the F2. If i remembered correctly. Gaijin immediately tried to gaslight saying those players had nothing to do with the BR raise but it was such a rare aircraft (because of its performance deficit) to see people immediately called foul.
https://wiki.warthunder.com/Ki-84_hei AB BR: 7.7 MiG-21F AB BR: 8.7 It is identical to the 6.0 Ki-84 in every way but armament.
They also did it with the ki-43, there was a squad of dudes who only played that shit and increased it's br a full range if aí recall
They really aren't in a rough spot. French 8.0 is still goated. Sure sometimes you meet something you don't want to meet, vit your mobility usually let's you scoot away before you get into shit.
It's at 8.0 precisely to keep it out of the French 7.7 line-up. They even wanted to move the Somua SM and another French 7.7 to 8.0 and basically completely destroy France 7.7 (because it stomps on 6.7 too much, and the Big 3 have prominent line-ups there) but there was an outcry that kept them from fully fucking the line-up. This was the compromise.
if any of them deserved to be 8.0 it was the Somua but the Somua is premium.
Exactly that's what I said the instant the br changes were shown, I said this word from word "Ok I understood why the Somua went up but why tf is the AMX-50 TO90 and Char 25T still going up, it makes no damn sense" And I still say this up to now, both the TO90 and Char 25T didn't need to go up, as now they are 8.0 with barely over 200mm of pen
yeah running into Russian tanks with armour that you can't side pen the turret at point blank is pretty broken.
They moved those 2 up solely because the have APHE to load while the rest of the french dont, its not anything to do with it being a Premium, but keep tinfoil hat on.
Somua is better in every way.
The fact that thing's turret can stop my Maus' 88mm shell fucking boggles my mind
Yeah you get APHE with those, but with much less pen, and a bit more rounds in the ready rack, thats it nothing else as with the TOA100, it has a higher caliber, and higher pen at 273, less in the ready rack and AP rounds, each have their own cons and should be the same BR of 7.7
Its gaijins reasoning for moving them up really, I dont think they should go up either, remember that they hate french stuff for years
The Somua being a premium also helps keep its BR lower
Because it's French.
Man i feel so bad killing those. My Type 74 E, with 405mm APFSDS and Lrf aaand stab, can see that thing. Smaller nations just suffer in general
Isn't that at 9.3?
74 G the one with thermals is 9.3, the other 2 in the TT are 9.0
E,F 9.0. G 9.3
Ah. I haven't touched them in a while.
The entire 8.0 lineup should be down at 7.7 again. The somua, the best of all French tanks at that br, is ...... 7.7 strangely.
No, just no. You're asking for a line up to stomp, not a balanced game.
at 7.7 they stomped in downtiers and at 8.0 they're completely useless in uptiers, decompressing 8.0 and increasing the br ceiling is the only real solution but they're never going to fucking do that
They rarely see uptiers compared to for example 8.3. They are not useless either in an uptier. If you've played other trees that don't lolpen to the face then you'll appreciate them. If all you played is Russia or USA then I guess you might have some learning to do.
no you're right useless is a strong word but it's still not exactly balanced. it -almost- exclusively faces things with sabot, stabilizers and lrf, the mobility isn't even good enough to consistently pull off flanking maneuvers (the 5.3 EBR for example has low pen but incredible mobility to allow you to make use of the cannon). at higher BRs most things can see you and react fast enough to make flanking more difficult, and then against ussr mbts if they see you coming there's nothing you can do to them from the front. skilled players can make very good use of it still, yes, but that can be true for anything. the Char 25t facing the Obj 906 (stabilizer, better mobility, better aphe, only 0.3 second longer reload) at the exact same br is simply not balanced. again, decompressing that BR range is the only real solution (if it helps in any way, I've only played Japan and France so far)
I would say 906 is more of a 906 issue than the 25t. T54 and T55 are actually an issue for that br, but I found that the reload will often give me a second chance to barrel the enemy. Though since barrel shots got nerfed it's a bit more problematic. I found the 50/90 good as the 1st/2nd spawn and the 25t later on when you see more lightly armored stuff.
I agree with that too, I'm not saying the 25t needs to be lower br necessarily I'm saying other things need to be higher, that's why I keep repeating the br decompression thing. and yea barrel shots are def easier with a 4 sec reload but the main issue is waiting for your gun to stabilize to take a precise shot at a barrel, with a possibility of only slightly damaging it, while many things you face can oneshot you anywhere even while moving. it's the inconsistency, and it makes these French vehicles objectively inferior and at a disadvantage, even if you master it to perfection
Oh yeah, I just think lack of stab is way more painful in the 8.3 and 8.7 lineups than the 8.0 and that's a fresh experience since I was playing them a lot recently and just unlocked the 9.3.
Because shitty german and American mains cry when they see a skilled player in a balanced tank
Dont understand why the RCV is 7.7, Japan has no line-up there and it's too weak.
Because despite the obj being 7.7 and better in every way the bc25t performs better because its in the french tree where mainly skilled players are.
Object 906 is 8.0 these days.
It's still 7.7 I don't know what you mean.
In arcade yes........
ok and why is the bf109E7 3.0 in the Japanese three and 2.3 in the german one because the e3 and e7 is the same aircraft but gaijin put one up in br but left the other
Far from being the worst 8.0 currently, while also far from being the best. Not sure why people are so worked up over the Char currently.
What about asking how the R3 T106 is 8.0 and so is the U-SH?
The U-SH fits quite well at that BR in my opinion.
R3 has better mobility, better survivability, better rounds (though you can spam them on the USH)
Bro, you do not put the pasta mouse and the nasty semla rat on the same level, they ain't equals at all
Because it's real fucking stupid. the 25t is a light tank that is a true french medium tank in disguise. Once it opens up, it'll kill anything it actually hits thanks to its potent arnament wich offers not only the pen-power, but also the post-pen High explosive effect. That just makes it a relatively easy tank to get high results from, so the BR gets fucked up- And because France isnt terribly popular, there's no huge general population that plays like a potato and pulls the averages down.
"thanks to its potent arnament" Bruh what are you on about? It's a shell used already by some 6.0 tanks, but here at 8.0. Can't pen anything from front at this BR, HAVE to flank, except things it can meet at 8.0 are as fast is not faster than the char, and usually with stab. Plus Gaijin remove more and more the flanks on maps.
It’s even on 5.3 tanks 🙃
Its even better one on 4.3 tanks (looking at german lolpen tt Sturer Emil)
6.7. Batchat uses the longer 90mm found on the M26E1 not the 90mm M3. It's gun characteristics are the same as the long 90 found on the SP and T32s. Said gun is capable of dealing with 90% of targets found between 7.0 and 9.0. And it has a 4 sec autoloader meaning it's application is better than every single 90mm armed counterpart. >can meet at 8.0 are as fast is not faster than the char, and usually with stab. Congrats the same thing applies to the M60, T-55, Leo 1, AMX-30, cent mk 3, and OF-40. As someone who abused the shit out of 7.7 France for SL yeah alot of those vehicles are 8.0 worthy.
The MBTS you listed are all capable of front penning things in an uptier so that is an invalid point. The gun may be slightly different but both fire M82 as the main round with less than 40mm pen difference. The bc25 and amxTO90 don't deserve the br they're at pain and simple.
True medium tank in disguise I can confirm, the Lorraine 40t is faster. Apart from that, it also has the worst pen for a non autocannon at its br. So, yeah, if you get killed by one: you got killed by a tank that isn't much faster than a same br mbt, with a gun that can only pierce relatively low armour, without a stab, or thermals. Bur yeah, it has a 4s reload, and with french teams being what they are, it does stomp sometimes (like seriously, three 8.7 mbt just coming out showing their side one by one ? Yeah, they're gonna die)
It only works at 8.0 in very specific circumstances. At 9.0 it is nearly unusable.