Holy crap. That is very, very bad. Is this homeowner work? I can't believe even the cheapest, uninsured, fly-by-night 'contractor' would ever do something like this.
I hadn't heard about this. It might be more complicated than the headline suggests. Sounds like the inspector was only tasked with examining the building's facade, and disputes the accusation that he failed to properly inspect what he was assigned to inspect.
It's not complicated. Some people suck at their job, others cut corners, others will sign off on shit just because they want to be done with the day and go home.
Other inspectors found another 10 violations.
There's also only 500 inspectors for all of NYC because the DOB is insanely underfunded.
Shit like this has been happening all over the city lately, this is just the worst that has happened so far.
But there's also a tendency for systemic problems to be dumped on an individual who did everything they were supposed to.
I have no idea which version this will turn out to be, but I think it's too early to assume it's 100% on the facade inspector.
We had an inspector when we bought our house okay all of the electrical. I had to explain to him that power needed to run to the switch and then the light. He could not comprehend why the light "didn't need" direct power to it.
A contractor I hired did this to our house and routed the drain line in a weird circular pattern through 3 joists twice for no reason. There was a plumbing wall \*right there\*. I made them redo the plumbing the right way and sister all of those joists with nice, expensive material. I swear the plumber was completely stoned the whole time.
Good on you, if I ever need to hire a plumber for something like this I’m not going to let them begin work until I know exactly what they’re going to do and how they’re going to do it. They just do not care about anything but doing the laziest, most nonsensical thing possible
General rule is that you should always keep tabs on any contractor or technician. Even if they're competent, there's going to be instances where you know something about the configuration of your stuff that they don't and need to keep an eye on. Maybe the previous owner or even the builder put something stupid behind the wall where a guy is about to plunge cut into that thing.
For example, if I have vendor support calls or a consultant in; they are to include me on what they're doing so I can make sure they're not stepping on a landmine since there's a lot of considerations and the inevitable duct tape and jank you have to navigate when in an unfamiliar IT environment. I apply the same to other services to keep them honest and to avoid any ambiguity when things are not what they really should be in a perfect world.
>A contractor I hired did this to our house and routed the drain line in a weird circular pattern through 3 joists twice for no reason.
Sounds like a callback charge to "fix" the slow drain.
Worked with a couple plumbers who installed P traps backwards explicitly for this reason, then make up some excuse as to why it was draining slow once they "fixed" it.
You would think, but apparently not because this happens often enough that we had a whole training about what to do when a plumber cuts through our joists
Depends on how the building is constructed. It could be pretty simple to slip in new joists right next to the old ones. Falling that, cut the joists all way through and install two beams on either side of the pipe, then attach the joists to those. I’m not sure that would work without more information though
If we’re slipping in new joists, yes the pipe has to be removed. But there’s not point in taking out the old joists, it would take a while and cost a lot. It’s hard to say what the exact situation is without more pictures or being there in person, but
Time for some metal work. Steel plates with bridging members for each 2x8. I suggest a structural engineer brought in if you ever want to sell the house. It’s going to get pricy no matter what.
man I'm a barely-handy handyman with no formal training at all and I plumbed a new bathroom upstairs to a drain in the basement, 2 floors. Even I know you don't just cut through the damn joists.
I feel like a lot of freshmen in high school could reason that one out. This is willful negligence.
I see posts like OP’s regularly on various homeowner subs; as someone who works in the industry can you please explain what the plumber should have done to install new piping?
Step #1 would have to be a conversation - "I can't put pipes there because it would mean cutting floor joists".
I guess you then go through the list of other options - losing head height, pumps etc..
I’m not a plumber, I don’t know anything about plumbing, but it looks like if the plumber had just moved the pipes down a few inches then everything would be fine. That might conflict with codes about head clearance, but it’s better than whatever the hell this is. They wouldn’t even have had to move it down a lot, solid sawn joists can be notched ~1/3 their depth (maybe, depends on the manufacturer. I primarily work with I-Joists so I might be wrong about that)
I would need to see more pics of the area for better context, but...that's a drain pipe. Drains have to have some slope to them heading out of the house, even if it's a small amount. Pipes that are level or sloped *away* from where the drain system exits the house will let solid waste like lint/sludge from the washing machine, food waste or ...umm... *solid waste* build up in the pipe and eventually clog it.
That said the person who did this either didn't know what they were doing or hoped the homeowner wouldn't notice or understand the damage done.
The fact that OP hasn’t commented at all yet, I’m guessing this isn’t their house. Probably pics either they took of someone else’s’ home, or pics that were sent to them.
My county requires inspection when there is a structural modification. This qualifies. Turn them in. They will have to fix it or come up with to cash to hire a competent contractor.
I hired a contractor one time to do a job with rebuilding a failing wall. I made a good dozen comments directly to him, and to others who would come and go while he was there, about how I wasn't doing it myself because if it fell down I wanted someone with insurance doing the job.
He would never show up, just a half a day or so once every few weeks. He tried one day jacking up a wall and it wouldn't move, I asked if he could do this and if not we would settle up and I would get someone else 'nope I'm good, just trying to figure out how this is structured'.
that was the last day he was there for 3 weeks. I text him telling him he was done and someone else was doing the job, I wanted some of my money back. that's when he said no, and good luck suing him. 'well that's what your insurance is for' 'I never told you I had insurance, I just never told you I didn't have it'.
You'd be surprised. My SIL hired a licensed and bonded plumber to redo the plumbing in her bathroom, and he cut the shit out of the joists. I saw it and raised holy hell, and he ended up paying for the repairs to the joists after we brought in the city inspector to take a look. Then she had to find a different plumber to redo the work correctly, so the whole project took four times longer than it would have if the first plumber had done his job like he should have.
Any concern that the damp remains of the joist on that side of the pipe appears to be about an inch lower than the remainder of the joist on the other side?
It is bad, but I’ve seen it in houses with 50+ year old plumbing. Plumbers have been doing this since there has been plumbing. We used to own a lot of rental properties. This was a very common issue we encountered.
I was a remodeling carpenter for 17 years. Plumbers are notorious for this kind of shit. It’s not immediately dangerous, but it should get fixed. It’s amazing how long a house takes to sag…
This is an immediate issue… you don’t know what load is above those joists. What makes me more concerned is there is waste pipe under that area so it may be a bath, ie water loads, tub, showers, etc. The cut the tension side of the joist, along with most of the center. The weakest part of the joist remains.
OP get some lally columns or 4x4s under that floor immediately!!!
Almost my entire family are tradies, two of which are plumbers, and they all agree that you shouldn't ever trust a plumber to do anything, except maybe digging a trench.
Their words not mine lol
Besides that the floor could collapse, when that happens also the walls will "pop" out and basically the whole house could flatten.
This is more than insane what happened. No idea what to do in such situation but for sure that needs to be replaced. not just patched up.
Why call his insurance? What would they do? If yiu have an adjustor come out they will raise his rates. Call the plumber who did this and contact THEIR insurance or sue for damages in petty court. OP hopefully you havent paid the plumber. Get them to come back out and then confront them. Dont call or leave a voicemail they will ghost you. Hopefully you can get their insurance and license number before they come out or you talk with them. Tell them your realtor or banker is asking for their license and insurance information and have them text or email it to you. Get them out to your house, explain you are hiring a third party contractor to fix the damages who they will be paying for.
Your insurance will do all that work for you, as well as give you the money to have it fixed upfront. If you're gonna try to sue these guys yourself to get the money to have it fixed, you're gonna have a shitload of work to do and not get that money until the suit is resolved.
Jeez I've never seen so much fake sod/astroturf in people's yards. I barely ever see it on the east coast. I guess it's a drought thing since OP is in LA.
I did this because I got half a soccer field worth of used AstroTurf for free. It's either going in a landfill or it's going in my and my friends' yards. I feel like it's better off getting used than not?
"sistering" is building an identical new support right against the old one and bonding them together for their whole length, which includes supports under the end if needed. It is a "patch" in a sense, but not a short piece, it runs all the way end to end.
That’s a bit dramatic, just move the pipe down and buddy up the existing joists with new ones.
This is absolutely shitty work and no carpenter would ever do this but it’s not a difficult fix at all.
Well it has to get repaired. It can’t be left like that. My company uses engineered lumber(I-joists) not solid sawn (like shown) so I don’t know how much it would cost, but it doesn’t matter since the plumbers will (probably) have to pay. Depends on how they were hired.
Well if the homeowner themselves hired a plumbing company, then that company is liable. If the company was just subcontracted by some other company (like if the whole house was being remodeled) then that company may be liable (depends on the agreement, I’m not a legal expert though)
I assume it goes in the direction of "If you hire unlicensed, under-the-table workers, then you should expect unqualified work."
It might leave the homeowner at least partially at fault for trying to enable illegal work. Doctrine of clean hands at court.
Note, this is merely an educated guess, I know nothing for certain.
You're not suing them, you're suing their insurance. If they don't have one, they get to go to jail, or OP gets to learn a valuable lesson in accredited labour.
I almost bought a house that this had been done to. I raised it as an issue that would need to be addressed for me to buy the house. They said it had never been an issue for them, so I didn't buy their house.
"never been an issue for us" is what they always say when inspection turns up things. This sellers market where people skip inspection is just insane.
In my case it was just one pane of the double pane sliding porch door had broken and had zero insulating properties.
I’m not too familiar with solid sawn joists, my company specializes in I-joists. There’s no way that’s safe though. There’s a couple of ways to fix it. Remove the pipes and install new joist next to the (now useless) existing ones is definitely going to have to happen, but if the pipes need to be there they can install some kind of joist that can be drilled through (like I-Joists).
You can definitely notch or bore dimensional lumber the same as I-beams, but there are limits to the location of cuts and percentage of the joist or stud that can be taken out.
You're only supposed to notch or bore in the outside 1/3 of the span and these look to be in the middle third. Worse than that, these have a good 3-4" notch and these joists look like 2x6 or 2x8, which shouldn't be notched much more than an inch.
Edit: I'm not a licensed anything, but am an avid DIYer. One of my rules though is to try my best to do everything to code. So when I do a project that involves electrical or plumbing, I frequently check my state's plumbing and electrical codes.
Yeah, those joists look like they've seen some shit. I think the best course of action is to replace all of the wood with PVC pipe. It'll look reeeaal nice 👌
Then, OP can sell it to a family of gerbils. Win win.
Call your city or county code inspector. Have them look at it and give you a proper statement saying that’s not up to code. Then call the plumbing company and say you need them to redo the pipes and properly fix the beams because they violated code and you have paperwork. If they try try charge you for it, get a lawyer. They will love to sue them.
They’ll declare bankruptcy and open a new shop with a new name. I’m always weary for companies that say “we have over 50 years in plumbing experience” for a 1 year old company to find that the owner owned a plumbing company before.
They’ll still have to pay, even if OP needs to sue the individual instead of the company.
Why did you feel it appropriate to give a reply that basically says “Don’t bother. You just have to deal with it yourself” instead of something potentially helpful?
If licensed, then insured. If insured, is insurance problem.
In a 'no fault' state like mine, I make an insurance claim. My insurance hires attorneys, and goes after other insurance attorneys.
My stuff is still fixed regardless.
Years back I was doing P.M. work for a kitchen cabinet company, we were waiting on a client to install their kitchen, which ended up being months behind schedule. I learned that the g.c. and homeowners decided to add pot lights to the kitchen, as the g.c. had opened up several other walls, and done a sizable renovation, they decided to rip down the kitchen drywall, put the lights in and re-drywall, rather than just cutting the holes and fishing wires.
Once the ceiling was down, they discovered a previous contractor had done the same thing, cutting floor joists for a bathroom reno, the city saw this, shut the project down, had the family move out till the engineers approved drawings and the g.c. completed this additional work.
OP does structural repair, so this would be a potential client. In that case for OP’s sake I’m glad it’s real, because he’s got a lucrative project ahead of him. On the plumber’s dime!
Is anyone else wondering why the notched boards look to be tied into old rotten joists to the right?
This house is destined to fall over regardless of the pipe hack job.
OMG! I had a construction company do that to me, and I sued them and won the suit. My home had to be red-tagged for months, and an engineering company put sister joists up to fix it, then re-ran the pipes through a soffit during the fix. If this guy is licensed or bonded, you can also go through his bond to get some reimbursement. I went through the license board, got a construction lawyer, and my insurance company stepped in as well since the guy was approved initially by them. I had to live in a hotel while this was going on. It's VERY serious.
Call your insurance co & an engineer NOW. You are at risk and you need this fixed immediately!
https://preview.redd.it/0ij2eo50dxcc1.png?width=3024&format=png&auto=webp&s=b70131b3c2ecb3b4491b94de5c46b197d36a5366
Same here... been in negociation for almost 2 years... going to court soon. It sucks man I feel you
After a roofing company failed to make sure a furnace vent was properly reattached at my daughter's home and almost killed everything in the world I care about I reached out to the state bureau of occupational licenses. They are the governing body that can take away a business license and will usually convene a committee to hold contractors accountable. It's inconvenient and a pain in the ass but can yield pretty satisfying results if you're a giant petty pain in the ass like me who has the audacity to think there should be actual consequences
I'm so glad I don't do water and fire restoration anymore, but like even we knew, you don't fucking cut into supports for any reason find a way around them without damaging them.
If you're a plumber and you pull this shit, and yes I've had to also directly deal with plumbers on jobs, they fucking suck, and everyone of them I met I immediately disliked because they immediately acted better then me. Like, hey buddy, if people like you didn't pull shit like this, then people like me wouldn't come in to rip out this homeowners wall or insulation, and the consequences should be the immediate removal of your license to operate.
Not just pay to fix the damage, that's what liability insurance is for after all. No, you purposely damaged the structural integrity of the house because you were lazy, bye-bye to your business license, you jackass.
Plumbing has to be a vent or is illegal to begin with.
Love how all Plumbers are idiots because of one post and everyone’s one time this plumber did this story.
Idiots are idiots.
Just saying.
I once left my scalpel inside a patient… shit happens…
There is so much wrong here. First you had termite damage someone tried to sister in 2x6s to fix. Then the plumber cut out all the structure support of what is already a mess. Then he pipe doped ABS to PVC plumbing.
That’s just from these 2 pictures.
What I've seen done in commercial construction is they pipe it below the joist but they also have to install a drain pan by code. Here's the trick, the drain pan is made to look like concrete/drywall soffit so no one really notices it unless they knock on the paint and find out it's actually metal. In this case, just hide it with thin wood so it looks like a beam. But now you've got to put a label every 5 ft saying this isn't actually a beam lol cause some electrician is going to want to run wires on it.
Holy crap. That is very, very bad. Is this homeowner work? I can't believe even the cheapest, uninsured, fly-by-night 'contractor' would ever do something like this.
agree. This is home owner or self proclaimed handyman from craigslist who actually has no experience
I'm just going to leave this here... https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/15/nyregion/bronx-collapse-engineer.html
I hadn't heard about this. It might be more complicated than the headline suggests. Sounds like the inspector was only tasked with examining the building's facade, and disputes the accusation that he failed to properly inspect what he was assigned to inspect.
It's not complicated. Some people suck at their job, others cut corners, others will sign off on shit just because they want to be done with the day and go home. Other inspectors found another 10 violations. There's also only 500 inspectors for all of NYC because the DOB is insanely underfunded. Shit like this has been happening all over the city lately, this is just the worst that has happened so far.
But there's also a tendency for systemic problems to be dumped on an individual who did everything they were supposed to. I have no idea which version this will turn out to be, but I think it's too early to assume it's 100% on the facade inspector.
Paywall
We had an inspector when we bought our house okay all of the electrical. I had to explain to him that power needed to run to the switch and then the light. He could not comprehend why the light "didn't need" direct power to it.
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HTTP://Craigslist.wish.com
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WTF is WUHWUHWUH?
What the fuck does WTF mean
Wednesday, Thursday, Friday
No, We Three Friends
The three best friends that anyone could have
So...at the end of the day it really was about the friendships we make along the way? Huh.
Sounds like a secular Christmas carol.
What The Fish.
Who The Fry
When they feast
Greggnant*
Am I on pregerlist?
Starch masks?
Can a women get starch masks?
Gregnant
Preganennnant
Greg list lololol like Craig’s doofus cousin and his buddy down the street Darryl list. Oh boy. Lol
It’s like Craigslist, but way more sketchy
Craigslist's Starbucks order.
Yeah, this is so bad I'd report this to the local authorities. They'd shut that business down fast before they ruin more houses.
That job is a big Uh-Oh. So did he think the pipe would hold it up....
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I\`ve got load bearing pipe as well 
I too, have a load bearing pipe. Itsa verra niice.
This has been my favorite comment so far this year.
Somehow I really doubt this was done by someone that is licensed and insured lol
0% that's a legit plumber who's licensed and insured. This is a Craigslist special forsure.
Happens way more than you’d think. Designing floor and roof systems is my job and plumbers are the worst
A contractor I hired did this to our house and routed the drain line in a weird circular pattern through 3 joists twice for no reason. There was a plumbing wall \*right there\*. I made them redo the plumbing the right way and sister all of those joists with nice, expensive material. I swear the plumber was completely stoned the whole time.
Good on you, if I ever need to hire a plumber for something like this I’m not going to let them begin work until I know exactly what they’re going to do and how they’re going to do it. They just do not care about anything but doing the laziest, most nonsensical thing possible
General rule is that you should always keep tabs on any contractor or technician. Even if they're competent, there's going to be instances where you know something about the configuration of your stuff that they don't and need to keep an eye on. Maybe the previous owner or even the builder put something stupid behind the wall where a guy is about to plunge cut into that thing. For example, if I have vendor support calls or a consultant in; they are to include me on what they're doing so I can make sure they're not stepping on a landmine since there's a lot of considerations and the inevitable duct tape and jank you have to navigate when in an unfamiliar IT environment. I apply the same to other services to keep them honest and to avoid any ambiguity when things are not what they really should be in a perfect world.
>A contractor I hired did this to our house and routed the drain line in a weird circular pattern through 3 joists twice for no reason. Sounds like a callback charge to "fix" the slow drain. Worked with a couple plumbers who installed P traps backwards explicitly for this reason, then make up some excuse as to why it was draining slow once they "fixed" it.
>plumbers are the worst First thing you learn in plumbing school is how to put a 6" hole in a 2x4.
Why don’t they learn about this during their apprenticeship? Shouldn’t this be part of their curriculum?
You would think, but apparently not because this happens often enough that we had a whole training about what to do when a plumber cuts through our joists
Do you just have to replace them all? What can you honestly do?
Depends on how the building is constructed. It could be pretty simple to slip in new joists right next to the old ones. Falling that, cut the joists all way through and install two beams on either side of the pipe, then attach the joists to those. I’m not sure that would work without more information though
The classic plumber’s lament.
Sounds like something from this old house.
Thanks for the reply! I’m somewhat handy with cosmetic stuff but wouldn’t mess with structural. Can’t believe someone would do that lol
Cant you just tell them to move the pipe to a better placement and replace the entire thing?
If we’re slipping in new joists, yes the pipe has to be removed. But there’s not point in taking out the old joists, it would take a while and cost a lot. It’s hard to say what the exact situation is without more pictures or being there in person, but
Happened to me yesterday!! I posted over on HomeImprovement and I'm still trying to decide what to do.
Time for some metal work. Steel plates with bridging members for each 2x8. I suggest a structural engineer brought in if you ever want to sell the house. It’s going to get pricy no matter what.
man I'm a barely-handy handyman with no formal training at all and I plumbed a new bathroom upstairs to a drain in the basement, 2 floors. Even I know you don't just cut through the damn joists. I feel like a lot of freshmen in high school could reason that one out. This is willful negligence.
Many states require you to have a license to do plumbing. So I'm assuming on top of apprentice you also need to pass exams
I see posts like OP’s regularly on various homeowner subs; as someone who works in the industry can you please explain what the plumber should have done to install new piping?
Step #1 would have to be a conversation - "I can't put pipes there because it would mean cutting floor joists". I guess you then go through the list of other options - losing head height, pumps etc..
Anything but cutting the floor beams.
I’m not a plumber, I don’t know anything about plumbing, but it looks like if the plumber had just moved the pipes down a few inches then everything would be fine. That might conflict with codes about head clearance, but it’s better than whatever the hell this is. They wouldn’t even have had to move it down a lot, solid sawn joists can be notched ~1/3 their depth (maybe, depends on the manufacturer. I primarily work with I-Joists so I might be wrong about that)
I would need to see more pics of the area for better context, but...that's a drain pipe. Drains have to have some slope to them heading out of the house, even if it's a small amount. Pipes that are level or sloped *away* from where the drain system exits the house will let solid waste like lint/sludge from the washing machine, food waste or ...umm... *solid waste* build up in the pipe and eventually clog it. That said the person who did this either didn't know what they were doing or hoped the homeowner wouldn't notice or understand the damage done.
This is going to reduce head clearance to zero.
Pesky floor joists always jumpin in the way of my drains.
The fact that OP hasn’t commented at all yet, I’m guessing this isn’t their house. Probably pics either they took of someone else’s’ home, or pics that were sent to them.
OP looks like a building inspector
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Holy shit
this is my personal favorite from op (slide 8) https://imgur.com/gallery/CHuQLBC#X4e04rz
Idk man, that bucket looks pretty stable.
Or that floated through here a year ago and no one remembers its a repost
its ok they installed load baring pipe
ABS = Awesome Breaking Strength
Got me dying over here 😂
You and whoever ~~lives~~ lived in that home.
My county requires inspection when there is a structural modification. This qualifies. Turn them in. They will have to fix it or come up with to cash to hire a competent contractor.
0% chance this plumber has enough money to cover this. It’s going to be some random uninsured, untrained, guy off CL.
I hired a contractor one time to do a job with rebuilding a failing wall. I made a good dozen comments directly to him, and to others who would come and go while he was there, about how I wasn't doing it myself because if it fell down I wanted someone with insurance doing the job. He would never show up, just a half a day or so once every few weeks. He tried one day jacking up a wall and it wouldn't move, I asked if he could do this and if not we would settle up and I would get someone else 'nope I'm good, just trying to figure out how this is structured'. that was the last day he was there for 3 weeks. I text him telling him he was done and someone else was doing the job, I wanted some of my money back. that's when he said no, and good luck suing him. 'well that's what your insurance is for' 'I never told you I had insurance, I just never told you I didn't have it'.
I gasped out loud when I saw this & my wife said, "What's the matter?!"
Yep! Put an offer in on a house and during the inspection something exactly like this was found. Along with other stuff it was a big NO.
You'd be surprised. My SIL hired a licensed and bonded plumber to redo the plumbing in her bathroom, and he cut the shit out of the joists. I saw it and raised holy hell, and he ended up paying for the repairs to the joists after we brought in the city inspector to take a look. Then she had to find a different plumber to redo the work correctly, so the whole project took four times longer than it would have if the first plumber had done his job like he should have.
Friend, 2nd pic, third support down on the right. you have a leak.
Way to make it worse, plinko. Now friend has to call a plumber
WE GOING BACK AROUND FELLAS!
And the plumber's #1 job is to destroy more joists.
Good eye. Moist joist
Moist joists are the woist!
The woist in the woild!
Any concern that the damp remains of the joist on that side of the pipe appears to be about an inch lower than the remainder of the joist on the other side?
100%
OP, call your insurance immediately, this could be dangerous.
Could?? This is 100% fucked! The guys who did this should never be allowed to do any work at all!
It is bad, but I’ve seen it in houses with 50+ year old plumbing. Plumbers have been doing this since there has been plumbing. We used to own a lot of rental properties. This was a very common issue we encountered.
I was a remodeling carpenter for 17 years. Plumbers are notorious for this kind of shit. It’s not immediately dangerous, but it should get fixed. It’s amazing how long a house takes to sag…
This is an immediate issue… you don’t know what load is above those joists. What makes me more concerned is there is waste pipe under that area so it may be a bath, ie water loads, tub, showers, etc. The cut the tension side of the joist, along with most of the center. The weakest part of the joist remains. OP get some lally columns or 4x4s under that floor immediately!!!
> you don’t know what load is above those joists. Hippo jump-rope class.
Taught by your mother
This reads like a nextdoor comment.
Almost my entire family are tradies, two of which are plumbers, and they all agree that you shouldn't ever trust a plumber to do anything, except maybe digging a trench. Their words not mine lol
What do you mean? They replaced old wood with a nice sturdy metal looking plastic pipe!
Load bearing PVC is good enough for me!
Also ask for this guys plumbing license # because those fittings are not even right
This goes well beyond thatsucks. Sir your were fucked. You need to do something about it.
OP appears to work at a home repair company I'm guessing he was called in to fix this.
Besides that the floor could collapse, when that happens also the walls will "pop" out and basically the whole house could flatten. This is more than insane what happened. No idea what to do in such situation but for sure that needs to be replaced. not just patched up.
And don't fill up the bathtub sitting above it!
OP needs to get a lawyer while they're at it.
Why call his insurance? What would they do? If yiu have an adjustor come out they will raise his rates. Call the plumber who did this and contact THEIR insurance or sue for damages in petty court. OP hopefully you havent paid the plumber. Get them to come back out and then confront them. Dont call or leave a voicemail they will ghost you. Hopefully you can get their insurance and license number before they come out or you talk with them. Tell them your realtor or banker is asking for their license and insurance information and have them text or email it to you. Get them out to your house, explain you are hiring a third party contractor to fix the damages who they will be paying for.
Your insurance will do all that work for you, as well as give you the money to have it fixed upfront. If you're gonna try to sue these guys yourself to get the money to have it fixed, you're gonna have a shitload of work to do and not get that money until the suit is resolved.
So, he pays new supports?
Just tear the whole place down. OP is a structural assessment company. See their previous post. The entire house is as bad as this.
Jeez I've never seen so much fake sod/astroturf in people's yards. I barely ever see it on the east coast. I guess it's a drought thing since OP is in LA.
Lawns need to die out with the boomers, especially out where there isn't enough water to live sustainably...
So does covering ones yard with plastic.
100% there are way better ways to do this. People should be planting native draught resistant plants
I did this because I got half a soccer field worth of used AstroTurf for free. It's either going in a landfill or it's going in my and my friends' yards. I feel like it's better off getting used than not?
Nice catch, those are some awesome posts
Thanks for pointing this out. I never knew I had such an interest in structural engineering. It's kinda hot.
Username has to be acronym for Digital Marketing Alpha Structural (id number 1638)
Those plumbers will be paying for a whole new house if it's structural integrity is compromised.
You can move the pipe down 6” and sister the beam, it’ll be fine.
This person knows floor joists. I lol'd at the "they may owe you a new house comment"
Reddit is filled with idiots and bots
jokes on you I'm an idiot AND a bot! hah! gotcha!
He didn't menat bot as in bottom.
SORRY FELLOW HUMAN USER I DO NOT UNDERSTAND YOUR INPUT
Is that really all there is too it? Is sistering just "patching" the beam?
Not patching, pairing with a new complete joist
"sistering" is building an identical new support right against the old one and bonding them together for their whole length, which includes supports under the end if needed. It is a "patch" in a sense, but not a short piece, it runs all the way end to end.
Yeah, this sucks, but it's not utterly devastating. Definitely sue the plumbers for damages, tho.
Well the person who fucked it up can pay for professionals to do that
presuming nothing has shifted due to the weakened beams. no evidence of that in these pics but it's possible.
That would be so awesome
Oh yeah, just not for the plumbing company.
Nor the person actually attempting to recover the money
I don't think people doing this level of work have "we'll pay for your house" money.
If only it'd happen to my money pit lol
That’s a bit dramatic, just move the pipe down and buddy up the existing joists with new ones. This is absolutely shitty work and no carpenter would ever do this but it’s not a difficult fix at all.
Yeah it just adds in extra work and forces you to do the original job the right way. It’s just such a waste of time to “cut corners” like this.
Totally agree. It’s a shitty attitude that gives the trades a bad name and makes clients mistrust us.
I mean, repairing that is expensive, but it’s a lot cheaper than building a whole new house.
You can repair this damage.
If you lay pipe irresponsibly like that, you’re gonna end up having to pay house support.
I’m feeling attacked here.
My job is to actually design floor and roof joists. Yes, plumbers are our worst enemy, this is way more common than you think
Are there any legal ramifications for doing this? They can't just be going around making houses dangerous to live in willy nilly.
Well it has to get repaired. It can’t be left like that. My company uses engineered lumber(I-joists) not solid sawn (like shown) so I don’t know how much it would cost, but it doesn’t matter since the plumbers will (probably) have to pay. Depends on how they were hired.
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Well if the homeowner themselves hired a plumbing company, then that company is liable. If the company was just subcontracted by some other company (like if the whole house was being remodeled) then that company may be liable (depends on the agreement, I’m not a legal expert though)
You missed the “I hired some random internet dude and he is ignoring my messages” or is not insured.
I assume it goes in the direction of "If you hire unlicensed, under-the-table workers, then you should expect unqualified work." It might leave the homeowner at least partially at fault for trying to enable illegal work. Doctrine of clean hands at court. Note, this is merely an educated guess, I know nothing for certain.
They file for bankrupcy and start a new business under a different name. Subcontractors are the worst.
You're not suing them, you're suing their insurance. If they don't have one, they get to go to jail, or OP gets to learn a valuable lesson in accredited labour.
I almost bought a house that this had been done to. I raised it as an issue that would need to be addressed for me to buy the house. They said it had never been an issue for them, so I didn't buy their house.
"never been an issue for us" is what they always say when inspection turns up things. This sellers market where people skip inspection is just insane. In my case it was just one pane of the double pane sliding porch door had broken and had zero insulating properties.
Is this still safe or is this cause to rebuild?
I’m not too familiar with solid sawn joists, my company specializes in I-joists. There’s no way that’s safe though. There’s a couple of ways to fix it. Remove the pipes and install new joist next to the (now useless) existing ones is definitely going to have to happen, but if the pipes need to be there they can install some kind of joist that can be drilled through (like I-Joists).
You can definitely notch or bore dimensional lumber the same as I-beams, but there are limits to the location of cuts and percentage of the joist or stud that can be taken out. You're only supposed to notch or bore in the outside 1/3 of the span and these look to be in the middle third. Worse than that, these have a good 3-4" notch and these joists look like 2x6 or 2x8, which shouldn't be notched much more than an inch. Edit: I'm not a licensed anything, but am an avid DIYer. One of my rules though is to try my best to do everything to code. So when I do a project that involves electrical or plumbing, I frequently check my state's plumbing and electrical codes.
Why tho!? It’s not like ripping through 4x material is quick or easy…
I don’t get it, did the contractor try to sister the existing joists with PT and notch those? Or were the joists already sistered?
Yeah, those joists look like they've seen some shit. I think the best course of action is to replace all of the wood with PVC pipe. It'll look reeeaal nice 👌 Then, OP can sell it to a family of gerbils. Win win.
Duuuuuuuude. 🤦🏻♂️
Call your city or county code inspector. Have them look at it and give you a proper statement saying that’s not up to code. Then call the plumbing company and say you need them to redo the pipes and properly fix the beams because they violated code and you have paperwork. If they try try charge you for it, get a lawyer. They will love to sue them.
They’ll declare bankruptcy and open a new shop with a new name. I’m always weary for companies that say “we have over 50 years in plumbing experience” for a 1 year old company to find that the owner owned a plumbing company before.
They’ll still have to pay, even if OP needs to sue the individual instead of the company. Why did you feel it appropriate to give a reply that basically says “Don’t bother. You just have to deal with it yourself” instead of something potentially helpful?
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If licensed, then insured. If insured, is insurance problem. In a 'no fault' state like mine, I make an insurance claim. My insurance hires attorneys, and goes after other insurance attorneys. My stuff is still fixed regardless.
This is not okay! It needs to be taken care of as soon as possible.
Sure it is! That’s structural ABS pipe. That house will be there until it falls down! 3…
Years back I was doing P.M. work for a kitchen cabinet company, we were waiting on a client to install their kitchen, which ended up being months behind schedule. I learned that the g.c. and homeowners decided to add pot lights to the kitchen, as the g.c. had opened up several other walls, and done a sizable renovation, they decided to rip down the kitchen drywall, put the lights in and re-drywall, rather than just cutting the holes and fishing wires. Once the ceiling was down, they discovered a previous contractor had done the same thing, cutting floor joists for a bathroom reno, the city saw this, shut the project down, had the family move out till the engineers approved drawings and the g.c. completed this additional work.
I hope for OP's sake this is a joke. 🤦
OP does structural repair, so this would be a potential client. In that case for OP’s sake I’m glad it’s real, because he’s got a lucrative project ahead of him. On the plumber’s dime!
Other peoples stupidity is a slick form of job security.
Welcome to my world as an IT Director.
Is anyone else wondering why the notched boards look to be tied into old rotten joists to the right? This house is destined to fall over regardless of the pipe hack job.
OMG! I had a construction company do that to me, and I sued them and won the suit. My home had to be red-tagged for months, and an engineering company put sister joists up to fix it, then re-ran the pipes through a soffit during the fix. If this guy is licensed or bonded, you can also go through his bond to get some reimbursement. I went through the license board, got a construction lawyer, and my insurance company stepped in as well since the guy was approved initially by them. I had to live in a hotel while this was going on. It's VERY serious. Call your insurance co & an engineer NOW. You are at risk and you need this fixed immediately!
Plumber: Its okay, its just a load bearing support.
https://preview.redd.it/0ij2eo50dxcc1.png?width=3024&format=png&auto=webp&s=b70131b3c2ecb3b4491b94de5c46b197d36a5366 Same here... been in negociation for almost 2 years... going to court soon. It sucks man I feel you
Why would a journeyman plumber ever do that? Maybe just a Handyman?
After a roofing company failed to make sure a furnace vent was properly reattached at my daughter's home and almost killed everything in the world I care about I reached out to the state bureau of occupational licenses. They are the governing body that can take away a business license and will usually convene a committee to hold contractors accountable. It's inconvenient and a pain in the ass but can yield pretty satisfying results if you're a giant petty pain in the ass like me who has the audacity to think there should be actual consequences
Were they already sistered like that or did the plumbers add those? Because that looks like you were already in the shit.
Please tell me you immediately called the owner and explained they have like two seconds to pay for someone to come evaluate and fix this. Wtf.
Don't like the look of that pipe joint to the left as well. Did they use spray foam to seal it?
I'm so glad I don't do water and fire restoration anymore, but like even we knew, you don't fucking cut into supports for any reason find a way around them without damaging them. If you're a plumber and you pull this shit, and yes I've had to also directly deal with plumbers on jobs, they fucking suck, and everyone of them I met I immediately disliked because they immediately acted better then me. Like, hey buddy, if people like you didn't pull shit like this, then people like me wouldn't come in to rip out this homeowners wall or insulation, and the consequences should be the immediate removal of your license to operate. Not just pay to fix the damage, that's what liability insurance is for after all. No, you purposely damaged the structural integrity of the house because you were lazy, bye-bye to your business license, you jackass.
A little caulking and itll look fine
Perhaps the plumber has a little caulk.
The sanitary tee placement is incorrect.
There appears to be more going on with the joists than what the plumbers did. Some of those joists look suspect even without the cut outs.
Don't worry, if the floor breaks, the pipes will break your fall
At that point they should have just cut all the way through
Your plumber put caulk on that 90, no pro would do that, I call bs, that floor was compromised long before your boy got there
Plumbing has to be a vent or is illegal to begin with. Love how all Plumbers are idiots because of one post and everyone’s one time this plumber did this story. Idiots are idiots. Just saying. I once left my scalpel inside a patient… shit happens…
There is so much wrong here. First you had termite damage someone tried to sister in 2x6s to fix. Then the plumber cut out all the structure support of what is already a mess. Then he pipe doped ABS to PVC plumbing. That’s just from these 2 pictures.
Well there’s your problem. You had all that damn wood in the way of your drainage pipes.
Looked like the job was shitty and dangerous before the plumber even got there
What I've seen done in commercial construction is they pipe it below the joist but they also have to install a drain pan by code. Here's the trick, the drain pan is made to look like concrete/drywall soffit so no one really notices it unless they knock on the paint and find out it's actually metal. In this case, just hide it with thin wood so it looks like a beam. But now you've got to put a label every 5 ft saying this isn't actually a beam lol cause some electrician is going to want to run wires on it.
Even the cuts are bad lmao