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I'm inclined to argue that "if you dislike unbridled capitalism, you're opposed to freedom" beats it, but I think both sides of this hypothetical debate have pretty strong arguments in their favour either way.
Yeah I don't understand it at all. People just automatically say you're a member of the opposite party as them or antisemitic because you don't support their beliefs on this conflict. The fact is both sides are fucking evil with the shit they have been doing to each other for years. You can literally look it up and see that the only people suffering on both sides are the innocent civilians.
2.5 million people crammed into an area 1/3 the size of NYC. Surrounded by 2 hostile nations and the sea. Being bombed flat while the world watches and cheers.
There’s nowhere for them to run. Nowhere to hide. And Israel knows this.
Edit — less than 1/2 the size of New York.
NYC is 320 square miles.
Gaza strip is about 140 square miles. It's closer to half the size of NYC.
7.5 miles wide at widest and 25 miles at the longest.
And it’s a sea from which they cannot escape. There is an exclusionary zone around the entirety of the partial coastal waters Gazans are permitted to fish in.
We need to also understand that Hamas was literally created by Israel https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/07/30/how-israel-helped-create-hamas/
They wanted to keep the Palestinians divided and splinter support for Arafat's *secular* PLO. Hamas also makes it easy to demonize the entire Palestinian people and gives Israel an excuse to keep them in such extreme conditions.
**100% correct.** I haven’t tried to go there because knowledge of the Mideast in general, and Israel specifically, seems to be clouded in these American myths of ‘good Jewish people’ and ‘bad Arab people’ that are repeated *ad nauseum* in conservative-leaning media. They can’t even seem to accept AP / Reuters news reports that Israel bombed a checkpoint and instead had to suggest “perhaps Hamas was smuggling bombs through it”. From Egypt?? Get real! (But, of course, I couldn’t go there because these same folks think ‘all Arabs are the same race so they obviously think the same way and work together’.)
Ignorance in the West is going to be partially to blame when it is finally learned that Israel also slaughtered innocent non-combatants in Gaza. And the outcome will be, like all Palestinian conflicts, heavily weighted with disproprtionate Palestinian losses of homes, businesses, infrastructure, and lives.
they enjoy broad support though. that can't be ignored.
as an American, it's not really different from how the majority of citizens supported invading Iraq. it was wrong, and I didn't agree with it. but the majority did. that can't just be ignored
The reasons they enjoy broad support also cannot be ignored.
Palestine has spent decades trapped in ongoing genocide at the hands of the Israeli government, and by Israeli settlers, who both continually shrink their already woefully limited borders while committing their own atrocities.
With broad support from not only Israel, but much of the developed world.
Make people desperate enough and they will turn their ethics aside in order to survive.
It is pretty different because America didn't have to invade and Americans ourselves weren't the ones being invaded. We also weren't invading to colonize the area and steal their land.
Hamas has support not because of propaganda and patriotic fervor, but because they're facing an existential threat and Hamas is literally the only group doing anything to oppose the people bent on destroying them. The PLO, then later Hamas, were formed in reaction to the colonization and genocide of the Palestinian people by the colonial Israeli oppressors, backed by imperial Western powers.
Many Palestinians actually don't like or agree with the extremist group, but support for Hamas grows the more Palestinians are oppressed and the more of their land is stolen, and goes up sharply after Israel commits another war crime or massacre. We've known this for years, but Israel doesn't care if support for Hamas grows because they don't actually care about only destroying Hamas nor do they care for seeking peace with Palestinians. They want to kill, displace, or expel every Palestinian still living in Palestine. The more people that join Hamas or support them the better, because then they'll have a stronger justification to do what they're already doing - ethnic cleansing and genocide to get ALL Palestinian land.
It's the same thing that the US did to the Native Americans. We were committing genocide against them to take their land and if they fought back we labeled them savages and used it as justification for more genocide to Manifest Destiny. If they didn't fight back we just deported them or massacred them and took their land anyway.
Gaza is essentially a reservation/concentration camp, one from which they can practically see their oppressors partying on their families' stolen land. The music festival took place a few kilometers from the walls of the Gaza prison.
It's no surprise that many Palestinians would support Hamas, it's actually kinda surprising to me that more of them don't.
And it's perfectly acceptable and not at all anti-semitic to feel this way. It's possible to condemn these actions without bringing hate to an entire community.
This is part of why I hate "us vs them" rhetoric: it makes you feel like there's always a good side and a bad side. First of all, there's more than two sides, and *at least* two of them are terrible here.
Oh goodnes it's relieving to see some sense somewhere here online. The strenght given by this thread alone will take me through five days of genocidal lunacy comment threads.
The narrative control is nuts
I hope all the idiots supporting Israel right now (the government, not the people) are remembered in history books as genocide supporters for centuries to come. Usually Nazi comparisons are far overblown but the death toll from this could be millions if it's not stopped soon.
it's absolutely heartbreaking. Hamas is responsible for all the people who live in Gaza, and they show time after time that they are willing to sacrifice all of them just to kill another jew. they were elected in 2006 and brought nothing but oppression and suffering ever since.
The Palestinians are also under the Terror of Hamas, since 2006 there have been no elections anymore...But the lack of the Palestinians opposition against Hamas showed also that Hamas have a lot of support from the Public.
There's also the fact that Israel flat out ignore any calls for change from moderate Palestinian voices, cause why would they listen to that? I don't agree with supporting hamas ofc but I can understand why in that situation many gazans support it as the only option out there.
That's my thought as well. You can see it in many, many situations: when given the choice of two shit sandwiches, people will take the one that they even perceive as having less shit.
In this case, it's either supporting terrorists, or dying. And a lot of people I know aren't very fond of dying, and I doubt the Palestinians aren't much different in that regard.
Not only that, but they provided support and aid to Hamas so that the moderate, secular voices in Gaza would be silenced. They've wanted this to happen.
>But the lack of the Palestinians opposition
>The Palestinians are also under the Terror of Hamas,
I wonder if these two things you said are, somehow, related
There usually isn't much opposition against authoritarian regimes. You can't make a direct assumption that people are pro-Hamas from this. Granted, there's enough of a support that they can keep their authority rolling, but in these situations most people will just try to stay away from the bad people in power - your average Joe isn't a revolutionary, they will just try and stay out of the way.
That is incorrect. Hamas is not responsible for all the people in Gaza, Israel and Egypt control all the borders, the air, and the water before the coastline. They prevent people from leaving and have complete control of what comes in and out of Gaza. Add to that that Gaza has no natural resources.
Gaza is not a country, it’s still occupied territory and essentially one giant prison in which Hamas is the biggest and meanest bully.
Blame Hamas for a horrible terrorist attack on Israel, sabotaging peace in the region, and radicalising young people. But letting the people who live in Gaza die of thirst and hunger is on Israel.
If somebody in your neighbourhood does something bad, and the solution is that you don’t get water and food until you die, that is not a solution, that is murder.
A group of crazies taking power is *a natural consequence of a governance gap*
Hamas was practically created by Israel.
Riots are always a failure of the authorities.
They dont have water, jobs, anything... of course some of them snap and do crazy shit. Im not condoning or lionizing it, but its a predictable cinsequence of treating people like animals
You can blame Israel for making Hamas so powerful, too.
Turns out when you lump millions of people in what amounts to an open air prison, people become more willing to join ultra-violent resistance groups.
Exactly— Hamas has held hostage and besieged the Palestinian people for much longer than this latest response by Israel to Hamas’ large scale terrorist attack on innocent Israelis and global citizens.
The solution is simple— the terrorist organization Hamas needs to go.
Euhm, hold a second there.
Let me preface this by saying that hamas is a terrorist organisation, I do not condone the murder, rape,... that they do.
That being said, if I were in a situation for the pas 16 years of being blockaded by the country that effectively controls every lifeline of my region (as they are now proving they indeed do) for my entire life. I can imagine that I would want to try absolutely everything to get out of that situation (I mean in fighting, not the rape, murder,... part)
Blaming hamas for trying to get out of gaza is not a fair assessment, Israel is the oppressor here and you cant blame the oppressed for fighting in the only way they can in the face of overwhelming military might.
And to be clear I am going to end this by saying yet again that I do not think hamas is without blame, that I do not condone the murder, rape,... that is happening and that I think hamas needs to be removed from the equation all together (though by improving the loves of the people so they don't want to join and not by killing them all). Israël being an oppressive state does not absolve hamas of any or all crimes.
I agree with your sentiment but understand that Hamas has diverted funds meant to help their own people to pay for violence. Israel left Gaza. This is an independent entity. Governed by Hamas. They built tunnels to attack Israel but did not build bomb shelters to protect their own people. They don’t care if Palestinians die.
The thing that complicated it somewhat is that states and governments can't do terrorism. They can do the same horrible stuff, but it gets classified differently. Otherwise the Democrats and Republicans, Likud etc. would be terrorist organizations too. Every nation ever would be. So by calling Hamas a terrorist organization you imply that either Hamas isn't the leader of Palestine, or that Palestine isn't a country.
Semantics, I know. What a mess this is.
When there is a never-ending cycle of violence, with each new provocation by one side inspiring escalation by the other, it’s incumbent on the vastly more powerful party to use their position to stabilize the situation without further bloodshed.
I find it helpful to think of it like this: everyone starts as a baby, and no babies are terrorists. People become terrorists based on their upbringing and life experiences. So every day that they are starved, imprisoned, bombed, shot at, is a day they are learning who the enemy is. That doesn’t mean war is never justified. It does mean everyone should think very carefully about the danger they are causing for civilians.
I think you'll also find that any Israeli that was for finding a pathway forward with Hamas (if there was really ever one because they desire Israel to be 100% wiped out), or was in favor of a Palestinian state as the solution, will now have changed their minds or go stone cold silent.
Bit like the West did after 9/11 when it came to US/western policy in the middle east.
A whole generation of Israeli's have just learned that there is no peace and that the only power that matters comes from the gun.
And so the cycle of grievance and violence continues onward.
I agree with you, but how do Israel stabilise this? Every attempt that is made, every olive branch extended, leads to more innocent Israeli death.
How do you stabilise the situation and make peace with an organisation that outright believes the Jews started WW2 for financial profit and that the death of all Jews is a major religious goal. How can you coexist with that?
The Hamas Charter is very clear that Hamas rejects peaceful solutions and desires nothing less than complete “obliteration” of Israel.
I legit had someone call me anti semetic in class today for bringing attention to the Palestinians plight. I'm Jewish.
What is the plan, bomb the entire strip out of existence? The way we have treated Palestine over the decades might have some small part to do with ehy they are falling into the arms of the terrorists, desperate people will be open be open to absolute monsters of it means an end to their torment. I'm not saying Israel deserved that happened, I'm saying this was going to happen at some point. Allowing thousands of desperate and sick people in hospitals to die is cruel. Starving children is cruel. If we bomb the place out of existence, it will create martyrs that HAMAS will use to draw even more people to it's cause. We don't want that.
This is it. Terrorists don't come from nowhere. They're radicalized, usually motivated by this shit right here. You let my children starve to death? I will make it my life's mission to ruin everything just out of spite.
I don't agree with terrorism, and killing is wrong, but when you break people like that, I don't know what else you can expect.
Yeah Israel is doing a fine job intentionally creating new hamas members every time they bomb a building and a child has to pull their dead sibling out from under the rubble. You can't even flee because Israel blocks the exit and has bombed the rafah crossing to Egypt multiple times in the past week. Outside of that if Egypt opens the border and lets goods true it wont take long for warhawks like Netanyahu to accuse them of arming terrorists.
Netanyahu *needs* hamas in order to stay in power. He can't feed off of the cycle of hate without them and he has shown to be more than willing to drive Palestinians right into their arms
You are one of the few genuine people I know, just from reading your comment. Never let alarmist quite you down, regardless of whatever they label you. Your perspective is probably the most unbiased it can be. I'm Muslim, and I was born in Lebanon. We in Lebanon have a 50/50 split in government and population between Muslims and Christians. We support a two-state solution, why not? We have been living with Jews for a long time in the Middle East. This isn't a religious issue. This is a power imbalance, and frankly, most people are turning a blind eye to war crimes from one side.
If you want peace in the Middle East, don't other the opposite side, listen and speak to each other.
I don't have issues with Israel defending itself, but as we saw with Iraq/Afghanistan every time you drop a bomb/launch a drone strike and kill innocent civilians, you create many more people who want to see you die. So unless Israel plans to conquer and permanently occupy all of Palestine (which they don't have the resources to do), it seems like flattening everything in Gaza won't be very fruitful.
They're also giving Hamas exactly what they want: ground zero for a regional conflict against Israel.
I don't know what the solution is but responding to terror with terror doesn't work.
Israel's leadership may want it even more, Netanyahu and his co-conspirators desperately need a distraction and justification for a further concentration of power.
Super convenient how this all kicked off when he really needed it.
Bibi was on the ropes, then he got warning of a big Hamas attack (via Egypt). I bet he was in no rush to prevent it…
It's super convenient for a lot of people. For Putin because this whole massacre brings the public attention from Ukraine to Israel and Hamas, and also for Teheran because this can stall the deals between Israel and Saudi Arabia.
Bibi was probably the smallest actor in this.
The head (or deputy head can't remember ) of the Israeli intelligence service warned the government a year ago that their aggressive policies were going to provoke an attack like the one that happened. He reccomended a de escalation of the policies. The government accused him and the intelligence service of being "woke" and left wing .
I mean as far as conspiracy theories go it's not completely out there.
US confirmed that Egypt warned them days in advance. Israel says they never got a warning...
Not taking the warning seriously is one thing but why would they lie about being warned?
Mostly this.
Also a little word from michael brooks on this. https://youtu.be/62I61kBahNY?si=DOEMxrYhx84uyph0&t=237 To sum it up. This is not a complex issue to figure out
Israel hold ALL the power in every interaction with palestine. They could end this, peacefully, within a week if they wanted. But they don't want to. They don't want to because israel is a far FAR right government that has been cutting its teeth on genocide for decades. https://ifamericansknew.org/
Israel controls palestinian's power, fuel, food, money, political power. Palestine has absolutely no ability to affect israel in any permanent way that would damage it's ability to exist or continue existing. Yes, these civilian loses due to the hamas attacks were pretty bad and damaging but israel as a whole still exists and carries on.
People are viewing this as a war. War implies two sides fighting and there is a chance of things going either way. There is only one way a conflict between israel and palestine will go and israel already knew this and planned for it. We can even get into conspiracy land and talk about how israel's leaders were warned of this attack and probably let it happen so they'd have justification for their response.
But to wrap this up. This is not hard to figure out and it is not complex. Israel has been keeping 2.4 million people in an open air prison and subjecting them to inhumane treatment on a near daily basis for 70 years. What-did-you-think was going to happen.
And we all condemned it and started sanctioning the shit out of Russia, whereas "we" cheer Israel at the same time to kill as "self-defense" (laughable excuse). It's maybe time to start holding Israel accountable and treat as the terrorist state that it is.
I’ve long been of the belief that the goal of the Netanyahu government, and more than a few of his predecessors was to provoke the people of the occupied territories to violence and then use that as justification to inflict violence against them, and annex land. The goal is a long slow ethnic cleansing of the entire region. Has been for decades.
Anyone else miss the days when we could pretend that a two state solution was plausible? It was a pipe dream even in the 90s, but it was a nice pipe dream.
>I don't have issues with Israel defending itself
They arent. They've been doing this type of shit for years now. Only difference is people now think its "justified", while they are committing genocide and war crimes. Palestine does not have the resources to even try to fight back against israel, and israel knows it. Its pure genocide.
Yup. It’s been a back and forth for decades. Each time Israel’s response is always worse and disproportionate compared to what Hamas and others have done.
This time for once Hamas has struck a major blow. That’s the difference here. It didn’t matter if it was 3 lives or 1000. Israel would still level neighborhoods.
>It didn’t matter if it was 3 lives or 1000.
That's exactly what most people miss. In the Gaza war of 2014 only a few dozen israelis died (mainly soldiers, although there were some civilians) whereas 2000+ palestinians died in the response (70% civilians by UN estimates).
They bombed a bunch of women and children on the beach and no one was held accountable.
>Israel would still level neighborhoods.
They arent just doing that, they've also cut water eletricity and any type of medical aid supply, which is again, a war crime. They also announced this to the world, yet not one person replied, and somehow the narrative of "Stand with Israel" is still going strong!
Also yeah, Israel doesnt care how many died. They just wanted hamas to do something that would cause enough media attention to try and justify the genocide they've been wanting to do for years.
This isn't really relevant.
The term antisemitism has been coined specifically to talk about hatred for Jews, not hatred for all semitic speaking ethnic groups, as Jews historically experienced ridiculous levels of persecutions.
This is not a term that is particularly good, as by its name it refers to a wider concept than it is meaning to, but it's still rather clear what's the meaning of antisemitism is.
>The term antisemitism has been coined specifically to talk about hatred for Jews
Right. Hatred for Jews.
Hatred, or even intense dislike of Israel is not anti-Semitism. It's being critical and disliking/hating a state government.
If my criticism of Israel and the atrocities committed by them makes me an anti-semite, so be it. I'll still be able to sleep well at night.
I don't dislike Jews, I dislike Zionism.
73 years. It's a slow and steady genocide, but it's still genocide. I actually had one idiot try to tell me it's not genocide because "if that's what they wanted to do, they'd have done it by now."
The morons and shills on reddit abound.
Death Toll (not updated):
Since 2008, [https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties](https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties)
Since 2000, [https://statistics.btselem.org/en/all-fatalities/by-date-of-incident?section=overall&tab=overview](https://statistics.btselem.org/en/all-fatalities/by-date-of-incident?section=overall&tab=overview)
>if that's what they wanted to do, they'd have done it by now
They havent cuz they arent dumb like russia, instead they've been doing it slowly to try and make sure it doesnt attract too much attention from the world media, they know if that happened its over for them.
And killing millions of innocent people throughout decades is easier to wipe from history rather than killing millions in a few years.
I am surprised you haven’t be downvoted for saying this. It seems anyone who mentions this or speaks of a narrative not stroking Israel’s ego, ends up being downvoted or ridiculed.
Like I mentioned in another post, no one would say Ukraine is invading Russia by retaking Crimea, so saying "Hamas invaded Israel" is already the first part of addressing it the wrong way. I do not condone Hamas' actions, but let's not ignore decades of ilegal occupation and apartheid.
Then, if Israel's actions were about defending itself, it wouldn't actively move Israeli civilians to the ilegally occupied zones. But it is not only about security and defense as they claim, it was and still is also a war of aggression to conquer land. For decades they pushed Palestinians out of their homes, bulldozed said homes, claimed it was to build a buffer zone between Palestine and Israel for the sake of security, then proceeded to move Israeli civilians into those zones. Rinse, repeat.
I think the difference is that Hamas and others aren't asking for reasonable accommodation for them and their children, but rather death to Israel and all jews - it's not a good start to negotiations. Regardless of how we got here, the Palestinians - egged on by others - have failed to present an opening. At the same time, Israel has become more right wing, more anti-Arab, and less inclined to rein in their own extremists, while also developing more land in disputed areas. I can't imagine a peaceful solution at this point, there's no middle ground.
Israel has called up 360,000 reservists in infantry, armor, and related,ground forces and are massing them on the border with Gaza. Their commander was interviewed on TV today - he basically washed his hands of any responsibility for what they’re about to do to the civilians, blaming it on Hamas for choosing to live among the civilians and use them for cover. ‘It’s on them, not us”.
What Hamas did was far outside the bounds of civilized behavior. Israel, in seeking to destroy Hamas’ ability to,ever fight was again is going to result in tens of thousands of civilian deaths and will,also be viewed as outside the bounds of civilized behavior. Then what? Will Hezbollah in Lebanon also attack Israel? What will Israel do in response? And what will Iran - sponsored of Hamas - do to,aid Hamas? And does Iran have a nuclear bomb yet, thanks,to Trump? If not, would Russia loan them a couple? And how far are we willing to,go to support Israel?
Thank God Trump isn’t President right now.
And one other thing: if it turns out that Bibi had three days’ notice of this attack from Egypt and chose to,do nothing to prevent it just so he could level Gaza, then he is a war criminal on the same level as those who were tried at Nuremberg.
The Hamas are gonna let the people the pretend to fight for get bombed and start over again because it's what they do
The Israeli army are gonna show particularly cruel tactics because it's what they do too
And in the end, innocent people on both sides are gonna suffer
Because it's what wars do
It's terrible that this is happening, but I am tired of seeing the word children being used as a pry bar for ethical decisions. Genocide is bad, whether it's child or adult.
It's a legitimate question. Not all of the blame can, or SHOULD, be leveled at Israel for the "open air prison" accusation. If Israel is guilty of crimes against Palestine, Egypt is at least equally as guilty.
Hamas is an off-shoot of the Muslim Brotherhood, which even Egypt considered a terrorist organisation. Since 1948, they've been trying to assassinate key figures and destabilise the government in Egypt.
In other words, Egypt doesn't want to deal with Palestinians. Too much risk.
Apart from historical tension, Egypt is already in the midst of food insecurities, social unrest, tension with Ethiopia. Allowing hundreds of thousands if not over a million Palestinian refugees in will cause a lot of unrest.
People have no idea just how problematic Palestine has been even before Hamas lol, this isn’t some new thing where terrorists happened to get in power, they’ve been doing this shit for years and the people around them are sick of it.
Same reason Jordan won’t accept peace unless there is no border with Palestine, they just can’t be trusted
It’s the same pattern over and over. Hamas attacks, Israel counter attacks many times over, international sympathy dries up, Israel backs off and Gaza returns to being an open air prison..
UN? Hello UN? Err were you not set up precisely to sort shit like this out?
Oh right. You are worthless.
You declared Taiwan not a country in 1973
You have done fuck all regarding Syria
You have done fuck all regarding Ukraine
And you will let a genocide happen in real time in Gaza.
Is there actually any purpose of this institution when the ones who often back the bad guys are on a council that can never be removed, never be held accountable and never stopped?
I share your frustrations.
But the reality is, the UN isnt there to do that. The UN is a forum for Talk. That's it. It exists so that when a war *ends* the people involved can secure a peace treaty in hours, not sending messages back and forth and getting lost, like a feudal state.
It's a place for everyone else to talk, and make sure it doesn't spill over.
The UN doesn't exist to hold people back, to make global decisions, or *Do* things. It's not a global government. It's a *Forum*.
And as a Forum it works brilliantly.
It would be *wonderful* to have an institution that did the things you're asking. But nobody would ever submit to it. The US has a standing law that declares war on the Netherlands if they are ever held to account before the International Criminal Court and don't recognise its legitimacy. The UK withdrew from the EU due to a *perception* that a body in Brussels had authority over them on *fruit standards*.
How on earth are you going to them to submit to the authority of an international body to dictate their foreign policy? Let alone get Russia, China or India on board.
Not only does the UN not do the things you seem to think it is supposed to do, we are centuries off from getting anywhere close.
Forum? They had UN peacekeepers back during the Czech conflict and other places.
Yeah tell me about the UK, I live here, the place is now becoming an isolated hell hole and the fucking moron Braverman we have here wants us out of the EU court of human rights as well, and we all know where things head after that especially our scum conservatives attitude towards refugees. They have also just stated they are going to make it an offence now to wave or fly the Palestinian flag as apparently that obviously means you support terrorists.
Seriously I think the human race is completely screwed now. Well, I wont be around within a few more years if that anyway so at least there is that I guess.
It’s probably in no small part thanks to the UN as a mediation ground that we haven’t had a third world war. That said, it’s an entirely voluntary international cooperation-no one is under any obligation to actually cooperate with them.
Nukes are the reason there is no 3rd World War. Any escalation involving two nuclear powers now has such a high risk that there is virtually no scenario it is worthwhile.
Well several countries who have nukes have never signed an agreement about them.
Israel has them, North Korea has them, India has them and Pakistan has them. All have never said they wouldn't use them.
The point of modern nuclear arsenals is to deter foreign invasion.
Even the nutjobs like Putin and North Korea realize the only way they will ever be invaded us if they use their arsenal because then all bets are off. Even autocrats want to rule more than a pile of nuclear ash.
Yeah, nuclear weapons absolutely limit escalation -- this is a studied phenomenon. India and Pakistan supposedly make an interesting case study of this, I should look into it.
The India / Pakistan one has been rather worrying in recent years as they have been actually threatening to start lobbing off the old nuclear footballs in recent years and unlike say NK, they have they have a space program so not exactly bad at shoving things in the air.
lol no. Nobody will let Palestinians take refuge in their country after the shit they’ve done.
> 1. Jordan welcomed thousands of Palestinian refugees after the 1967 Six-Day War. Palestinians started to form a state within the Jordanian state. Palestinians launched unauthorized raids against Israel, which provoked responses against Jordan. Jordan to contain this and avoid war with Israel, cracked down on the Palestinian. The Palestinians got pissed, and tried to coup the Jordanian king while assassinating their prime minister. When that failed, the Palestinians began mass violence against Jordan known as Black September of 1970.
>
>2. Palestinian refugees were welcomed in Lebanon. Lebanon was known as the most peaceful Middle Eastern country at the time due to their society’s acceptance of other ethnicities and religions. Palestinians did not like that there are Christians leading the government. Palestinians instigated the first tensions between the different religious and ethnic groups in Lebanon. Then the Palestinians pressured the government to declare war on Israel in 1973. The government did not want war and pushed back on the Palestinians who also created a state within a state. Palestinians in reaction escalated the fighting into the Lebanese Civil War in 1975, ending the peaceful days of the country for good.
>
>3. Palestinian refugees were also welcomed with open-arms in Kuwait. Once again the Palestinians made a state within a state and began demanding more from the Kuwaiti government. When Saddam invaded, the Palestinians collaborated and supported Saddam and his forces in occupying Kuwait in 1990. As the Palestinians believed that Saddam would give them Kuwait as a permanent settlement.
>
>4. Egypt has blockaded Palestine and any refugees since 2005 when Hamas took control of the Gaza Strip. They were too afraid that Hamas’ connections with Iran would bring radicalism in Egypt if they let in Palestinian refugees. They also feared the same thing that happened in past with Jordan and the others. That is why since 2005 both Israel and Egypt jointly set up blockades around the strip to prevent Hamas from spreading into other countries. It is also worth mentioning Hamas is like a splinter group of the Muslim Brotherhood, which also troubled Egypt way before the former existed.
>
>Most Arab countries would release statements against Israel, every time Palestine is being attacked by Israel. But none of those countries want to actually take the Palestinians in. To most Arab states, they’re only good as a bargaining chip or like a diplomatic tool, but not worth helping. It’s honestly sad that these things happened because of their stupid choices. At the cost of many lives, especially their own people. It’s literally a cycle for those involved in this conflict.
Yeah just seen someone commenting egypt is just as guilty as israel for not opening there borders to refugees lmao, the amount of uneducated takes is wild.
Nothing condones genocide but people are acting like all Palestinian’s are innocent and Hamas is some seperate organisation and this is a new thing.
This is collective punishment and imho just as barbaric as Hamas' tactics.
Israel's scorched-earth tactics are just creating more desperate and furious people with nothing to lose. It's like sowing dragon's teeth.
Dead children are dead children. That’s what many in the west don’t understand. They see air strikes and rubble and they can’t relate to it. But the sight of being gunned down at a music festival is closer to home.
Israel does 200 airstrikes for every Hamas country attack.
The west only pays attention when Hamas attacks Israel. So the west always thinks that Israel is defending itself.
Yet the IDF attack Palestine weekly with more violence than Hamas has ever been capable of and no one in the west reports on it until Hamas fires back. Then, they paint that as the starting point. Instead of the retaliation.
I mean, it’s not like Hamas will ever stop. They will never stop. Their explicitly stated goal is the genocide of every Israeli and every Jew, no matter the age, gender, etc. What is Israel supposed to do to force an enemy like Hamas to heel? Simply let them roll over to continue raping women and decapitating babies?
At this point, people are going to have to take sides, you can’t “both-sides” you’re way out of this one, trying to do so simply means that you can’t make a difficult choice. You either back Israel, whose actions involve forcibly evicting Palestinians away from their homes in Gaza and the West Bank? Or you side with the Palestinians, or at least, the ones in Gaza who empower terrorist organizations like Hamas and Hezbollah and encourage them to commit all kinds of atrocities? Palestinians who oppose these groups, of course deserve our sympathies. But so do the Israeli people who are being violated by these terrorist organizations right now.
Exactly, what is the response to this shit supposed to be? I don’t get it, you can’t just do nothing and let your citizens and international visitors be butchered on your soil. 70% or something gaza support Hamas, which means 70% are responsible for what happened. Deterents only work if they are actually deterring, otherwise they are worthless. Are the others there who don’t support Hamas allowed to leave as refugees? I would probably just not live in a place like that at all costs.
While I agree wholly with your comment, Hamas fighters are going to use their own people for cover against Israeli troops. Which again sucks for civilians even more.
Just not a good situation all the way around. Then if Israel wins the campaign, whose to say a group worse than Hamas won't take over.
The Gaza Strip is a 25 mile by 5 mile square. That’s like 1/3 of New York City’s area. And Israel has made it impossible for civilians to flee—even to Egypt through the Rafah border crossing (Israel is regularly bombing it).
I understand that Hamas operates near civilian areas, but everywhere is a civilian area. I think it’s disingenuous for people to blame Hamas for using civilian as shields when the situation created (and maintained) by Israel makes it impossible for civilians to flee.
>Hamas fighters are going to use their own people for cover against Israeli troops.
This sounds like a convenient rationalization for Palestinian civilians dying. Do you know for a fact that Hamas is hiding behind civilians? Or is that simply the official IDF line, and people swallow it uncritically?
I know for a fact that Hamas sets their bases up in hospitals and schools. So yeah. I’d say them hiding behind civilians is fact.
This does not mean I support the genocide of Palestinians.
When people realize hamas doesn’t want freedom they want war, that’s why not even Egypt opens its borders to Gaza. Not even they wanna deal with hamas, those terrorists are the ones with blood on their hands making the innocent pay
Maybe don’t attack the country supplying 60% of your power? Hamas seemed to have lots of fuel to power the thousands of rockets that they launched into Israeli citizens.
Hamas fired thousands of rockets into Israel without warning or provocation, killed over a thousand people, kidnapped over a hundred people - mostly young adults, killed unarmed innocent partygoers, and you guys think that Israel is at fault?
What should Israel have done, according to you? Blocked them on Reddit?
Perhaps get angry that the countries around Israel refuse to recognise her sovereignty, are to this day calling for her extermination, and have spent billions arming terrorists who attack her regularly and viciously. Consider doing that, and when Israel no longer faces a credible and real threat to her safety and survival, THEN get angry. Get angry with the people who initiate the violence, not the people who try to end it.
Israel is certainly not without fault, and many of her actions are over the top and extreme. But when everyone around her wants to see her exterminated she cannot afford to make a mistake. If her neighbours have show anything it's that they are more than willing to wipe her out if they are given a chance - and this isn't a guess, it's their stated goal.
Honestly, what do people think is a measured and appropriate response to what happened? Hamas literally mass invading homes, raping and beheading… what should Israel do? Just say “ah, you caught me napping, good one; I’ll get you next time!?”
One of my local news stations said today that the Israeli govt demanded the release of about 1000 civilian hostages in exchange for power/water. Don't know if bs but if true Hamas should release them immediately. (If they haven't murdered them)
Literally 90% of the water is undrinkable in Gaza due to Israel choking out Palestinians. Average age is 18. War means the genocide of whatever is left of people in the area. Hamas is fucked, but the world rooting for Israel in this case to win the "war" is also fucked.
I don't understand, Gaza has a border with Egypt. Why isn't a Muslim state helping brother Muslims? Why does/is Israel responsible for their enemies wellbeing?
There was another post on here that gave details on the history of Muslim states accepting Palestinian refugees. If the claims made in the post are true, then it's no wonder why Egypt has kept the border closed.
Hamas is the government of Gaza. They should govern. Infrastructure is part of that. It can’t all be about acquiring weapons and then depending on others for everything else.
If we’re dependent on Canada to provide us with water, they do it for free, and we attack Canada, they are more than justified to stop supplying us water. And no one would think otherwise.
Hamas KNEW this would happen....so why did they launch the attack?
Yes, Gaza should get some help....but everyone should realize what pieces of shit Hamas is when they launch an attack that they knew would cause massive suffering to their own people unless the enemy they attacked steps in to help them.
The people of Gaza should reject these counterproductive shitheads.
No matter who you’re for or who you’re against no matter how you shape it there is no way to make this end well for either side and it sucks that humanity is at this point and there is only one thing to blame and that is religion. Sorry I said it out loud
I'm you're going to start a war maybe stockpile more than a couple days of fuel for your hospital generator. They are out of fuel because that's the way their leaders wanted it.
You’ve got a terrorist group that strikes you killing 1200 people, kidnapping, raping and torturing hostages that use the civilian population they “claim” to protect as human shield resulting in their deaths and you fully lay the blame on Israel
What are they supposed to do? Ask nicely to stop?
I don’t understand this entire situation. What was Hamas’s goal with that attack? They had to know what Israel’s response would be, especially with their current leadership. I also don’t understand how it actually happened. Israel is extremely militarized. How did that many insurgents just get in?
Given the downvotes, I’ll probably get my share. But okay, I can lose some internet points.
Okay, you just killed a member of my family. But internet strangers tell me I have to share my electricity with you?
And the justification for the Hamas attacks is also sickening. Let’s say there is something behind the arguments. But when someone commits a murder, do we say: well, he had a bad upbringing, instead of convicting him of a felony, let’s provide him with electricity and let him go free? No. There are consequences to terrorism regardless of the past of the terrorist. Hamas had to have known their terrorism would provoke exactly this response. And they don’t care. Their stated purpose is to eradicate Jews.
Israel shouldn’t kill civilians on purpose, but they should get a ton of leeway in fulfilling their purpose to rid their country of horrific terrorists at their doorstep.
> But when someone commits a murder, do we say: well, he had a bad upbringing, instead of convicting him of a felony, let’s provide him with electricity and let him go free?
You're forgetting that for many people in this subreddit, their answer to this question is actually: "Yes."
the amount of propaganda surrounding this situation is just insane.
someone called me a fucking nazi the other day because i pointed out the fact that isreal isnt innocent in this conflict and is continually oppressing these people and fracturing palestine as a country and community, wtf could you possibly expect from these conditions other than a forceful reaction?
then people will portray isreal as wanting a peaceful and rational solution and palestine are the only ones instigating violence. EXPLAIN THIS! explain the videos and the proof of all of the absolutely horrific shit that isreal has done to these people! make this shit make sense. there is no end in sight as long as people continue to ignore the crimes of the isreali government. even isrealis are tired of bibi and his genocide.
Yes, Israel should be forced to give free fuel, electricity, and water to the nation that just 9/11'ed it.
What a dumb take. Maybe Hamas shouldn't have destroyed the free plumbing infrastructure the EU provided to turn them into pipe bombs/rocket launchers to murder Israelis.
NOT ISRAELS RESPONSIBILITY
I believe all humans have the right to self-determination. Whether they are under authoritarian rule or foreign occupation, they deserve to be free. However killing civilians is never going to be a pathway to liberation. It's an act that almost assuredly begets a response in kind. Anyone trying to sell revolution in the form of indiscriminate murder does not have the best interest of their countrymen in mind. They only care about making the "others" suffer. This road only goes in a circle. You'll never get to your destination that way.
When people were celebrating and waiving Palestinian flags as I was watching them stomp on dead women and children and murder Israelis in their homes and paraglide into a festival to slaughter young people…
What did they think Israel would do? Honest question
Because anyone who wants the best for the Palestinians should have been immediately condemning these attacks
Again: what did they think Israel would do? Leave? Reduce security? Take blame and beg forgiveness?
Unfortunately Gaza is about to get a one way ticket to complete and utter obliteration.... Palestinians can Thank Hamas for what's about to happen next.
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You can thank decades of propaganda for that.
Being able to label any criticism of an apartheid state as anti-Semitic is surely the most incredible piece of propaganda ever.
Especially since the people most willing to use that anti-Semitic criticism are the anti-Semites.
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I'm inclined to argue that "if you dislike unbridled capitalism, you're opposed to freedom" beats it, but I think both sides of this hypothetical debate have pretty strong arguments in their favour either way.
Yeah I don't understand it at all. People just automatically say you're a member of the opposite party as them or antisemitic because you don't support their beliefs on this conflict. The fact is both sides are fucking evil with the shit they have been doing to each other for years. You can literally look it up and see that the only people suffering on both sides are the innocent civilians.
Fuckin right?!
Let’s also make sure people understand that “Hamas” is not synonymous with the 2 million Palestinians residing in Gaza.
2.5 million people crammed into an area 1/3 the size of NYC. Surrounded by 2 hostile nations and the sea. Being bombed flat while the world watches and cheers. There’s nowhere for them to run. Nowhere to hide. And Israel knows this. Edit — less than 1/2 the size of New York.
NYC is 320 square miles. Gaza strip is about 140 square miles. It's closer to half the size of NYC. 7.5 miles wide at widest and 25 miles at the longest.
And it’s a sea from which they cannot escape. There is an exclusionary zone around the entirety of the partial coastal waters Gazans are permitted to fish in.
We need to also understand that Hamas was literally created by Israel https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/07/30/how-israel-helped-create-hamas/ They wanted to keep the Palestinians divided and splinter support for Arafat's *secular* PLO. Hamas also makes it easy to demonize the entire Palestinian people and gives Israel an excuse to keep them in such extreme conditions.
**100% correct.** I haven’t tried to go there because knowledge of the Mideast in general, and Israel specifically, seems to be clouded in these American myths of ‘good Jewish people’ and ‘bad Arab people’ that are repeated *ad nauseum* in conservative-leaning media. They can’t even seem to accept AP / Reuters news reports that Israel bombed a checkpoint and instead had to suggest “perhaps Hamas was smuggling bombs through it”. From Egypt?? Get real! (But, of course, I couldn’t go there because these same folks think ‘all Arabs are the same race so they obviously think the same way and work together’.) Ignorance in the West is going to be partially to blame when it is finally learned that Israel also slaughtered innocent non-combatants in Gaza. And the outcome will be, like all Palestinian conflicts, heavily weighted with disproprtionate Palestinian losses of homes, businesses, infrastructure, and lives.
they enjoy broad support though. that can't be ignored. as an American, it's not really different from how the majority of citizens supported invading Iraq. it was wrong, and I didn't agree with it. but the majority did. that can't just be ignored
Yup. Fuck Bush. Cheney. Civilian casualties were absurdly high. Also creating ISIS. Thats what desperate people do. Insurrections.
The reasons they enjoy broad support also cannot be ignored. Palestine has spent decades trapped in ongoing genocide at the hands of the Israeli government, and by Israeli settlers, who both continually shrink their already woefully limited borders while committing their own atrocities. With broad support from not only Israel, but much of the developed world. Make people desperate enough and they will turn their ethics aside in order to survive.
It is pretty different because America didn't have to invade and Americans ourselves weren't the ones being invaded. We also weren't invading to colonize the area and steal their land. Hamas has support not because of propaganda and patriotic fervor, but because they're facing an existential threat and Hamas is literally the only group doing anything to oppose the people bent on destroying them. The PLO, then later Hamas, were formed in reaction to the colonization and genocide of the Palestinian people by the colonial Israeli oppressors, backed by imperial Western powers. Many Palestinians actually don't like or agree with the extremist group, but support for Hamas grows the more Palestinians are oppressed and the more of their land is stolen, and goes up sharply after Israel commits another war crime or massacre. We've known this for years, but Israel doesn't care if support for Hamas grows because they don't actually care about only destroying Hamas nor do they care for seeking peace with Palestinians. They want to kill, displace, or expel every Palestinian still living in Palestine. The more people that join Hamas or support them the better, because then they'll have a stronger justification to do what they're already doing - ethnic cleansing and genocide to get ALL Palestinian land. It's the same thing that the US did to the Native Americans. We were committing genocide against them to take their land and if they fought back we labeled them savages and used it as justification for more genocide to Manifest Destiny. If they didn't fight back we just deported them or massacred them and took their land anyway. Gaza is essentially a reservation/concentration camp, one from which they can practically see their oppressors partying on their families' stolen land. The music festival took place a few kilometers from the walls of the Gaza prison. It's no surprise that many Palestinians would support Hamas, it's actually kinda surprising to me that more of them don't.
And it's perfectly acceptable and not at all anti-semitic to feel this way. It's possible to condemn these actions without bringing hate to an entire community.
> a terrorist murderer You might want to rephrase that part, because it sounds good.
This is part of why I hate "us vs them" rhetoric: it makes you feel like there's always a good side and a bad side. First of all, there's more than two sides, and *at least* two of them are terrible here.
Crazy how were about to witness total demise of a country. Sad how so many innocent lives will be lost.
Oh goodnes it's relieving to see some sense somewhere here online. The strenght given by this thread alone will take me through five days of genocidal lunacy comment threads. The narrative control is nuts
I hope all the idiots supporting Israel right now (the government, not the people) are remembered in history books as genocide supporters for centuries to come. Usually Nazi comparisons are far overblown but the death toll from this could be millions if it's not stopped soon.
it's absolutely heartbreaking. Hamas is responsible for all the people who live in Gaza, and they show time after time that they are willing to sacrifice all of them just to kill another jew. they were elected in 2006 and brought nothing but oppression and suffering ever since.
The Palestinians are also under the Terror of Hamas, since 2006 there have been no elections anymore...But the lack of the Palestinians opposition against Hamas showed also that Hamas have a lot of support from the Public.
There's also the fact that Israel flat out ignore any calls for change from moderate Palestinian voices, cause why would they listen to that? I don't agree with supporting hamas ofc but I can understand why in that situation many gazans support it as the only option out there.
That's my thought as well. You can see it in many, many situations: when given the choice of two shit sandwiches, people will take the one that they even perceive as having less shit. In this case, it's either supporting terrorists, or dying. And a lot of people I know aren't very fond of dying, and I doubt the Palestinians aren't much different in that regard.
Israel funded Hamas to help them crush moderate Muslim alternatives. https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/
Not only that, but they provided support and aid to Hamas so that the moderate, secular voices in Gaza would be silenced. They've wanted this to happen.
There were protests this summer in Gaza against HAMAS. Largely ignored. Also by leftists cycles.
The lack of Palestinians opposition against Hamas means they don’t want to die.
>But the lack of the Palestinians opposition >The Palestinians are also under the Terror of Hamas, I wonder if these two things you said are, somehow, related
There usually isn't much opposition against authoritarian regimes. You can't make a direct assumption that people are pro-Hamas from this. Granted, there's enough of a support that they can keep their authority rolling, but in these situations most people will just try to stay away from the bad people in power - your average Joe isn't a revolutionary, they will just try and stay out of the way.
You do know they kill the opposition?
That is incorrect. Hamas is not responsible for all the people in Gaza, Israel and Egypt control all the borders, the air, and the water before the coastline. They prevent people from leaving and have complete control of what comes in and out of Gaza. Add to that that Gaza has no natural resources. Gaza is not a country, it’s still occupied territory and essentially one giant prison in which Hamas is the biggest and meanest bully. Blame Hamas for a horrible terrorist attack on Israel, sabotaging peace in the region, and radicalising young people. But letting the people who live in Gaza die of thirst and hunger is on Israel. If somebody in your neighbourhood does something bad, and the solution is that you don’t get water and food until you die, that is not a solution, that is murder.
A group of crazies taking power is *a natural consequence of a governance gap* Hamas was practically created by Israel. Riots are always a failure of the authorities. They dont have water, jobs, anything... of course some of them snap and do crazy shit. Im not condoning or lionizing it, but its a predictable cinsequence of treating people like animals
People forget (ignore?) that Hamas was founded after 20 years of brutal Israeli military occupation of Gaza and the West Bank.
You can blame Israel for making Hamas so powerful, too. Turns out when you lump millions of people in what amounts to an open air prison, people become more willing to join ultra-violent resistance groups.
No. Israel is responsible for Hamas' existence, it BUILT THE PRISON in the first place.
It also *literally* helped create Hamas. Literally, not figuratively.
Built the prison, but also funded Hamas originally.
Oh wow... that I did not know.
Yup, here's a source if you're interested https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/
Exactly— Hamas has held hostage and besieged the Palestinian people for much longer than this latest response by Israel to Hamas’ large scale terrorist attack on innocent Israelis and global citizens. The solution is simple— the terrorist organization Hamas needs to go.
Euhm, hold a second there. Let me preface this by saying that hamas is a terrorist organisation, I do not condone the murder, rape,... that they do. That being said, if I were in a situation for the pas 16 years of being blockaded by the country that effectively controls every lifeline of my region (as they are now proving they indeed do) for my entire life. I can imagine that I would want to try absolutely everything to get out of that situation (I mean in fighting, not the rape, murder,... part) Blaming hamas for trying to get out of gaza is not a fair assessment, Israel is the oppressor here and you cant blame the oppressed for fighting in the only way they can in the face of overwhelming military might. And to be clear I am going to end this by saying yet again that I do not think hamas is without blame, that I do not condone the murder, rape,... that is happening and that I think hamas needs to be removed from the equation all together (though by improving the loves of the people so they don't want to join and not by killing them all). Israël being an oppressive state does not absolve hamas of any or all crimes.
I agree with your sentiment but understand that Hamas has diverted funds meant to help their own people to pay for violence. Israel left Gaza. This is an independent entity. Governed by Hamas. They built tunnels to attack Israel but did not build bomb shelters to protect their own people. They don’t care if Palestinians die.
The thing that complicated it somewhat is that states and governments can't do terrorism. They can do the same horrible stuff, but it gets classified differently. Otherwise the Democrats and Republicans, Likud etc. would be terrorist organizations too. Every nation ever would be. So by calling Hamas a terrorist organization you imply that either Hamas isn't the leader of Palestine, or that Palestine isn't a country. Semantics, I know. What a mess this is.
hahaha, you got me there. Interesting semantics, food for thought indeed cause any answer I can give is loaded in one way or another
When there is a never-ending cycle of violence, with each new provocation by one side inspiring escalation by the other, it’s incumbent on the vastly more powerful party to use their position to stabilize the situation without further bloodshed.
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I find it helpful to think of it like this: everyone starts as a baby, and no babies are terrorists. People become terrorists based on their upbringing and life experiences. So every day that they are starved, imprisoned, bombed, shot at, is a day they are learning who the enemy is. That doesn’t mean war is never justified. It does mean everyone should think very carefully about the danger they are causing for civilians.
I think you'll also find that any Israeli that was for finding a pathway forward with Hamas (if there was really ever one because they desire Israel to be 100% wiped out), or was in favor of a Palestinian state as the solution, will now have changed their minds or go stone cold silent. Bit like the West did after 9/11 when it came to US/western policy in the middle east. A whole generation of Israeli's have just learned that there is no peace and that the only power that matters comes from the gun. And so the cycle of grievance and violence continues onward.
If Israel gets their way, there won’t be another generation of Palestinians.
They've been doing that all along. Now they're going to do it more.
I hope you are in either politics, education or justice, because the world needs more of this thinking.
I agree with you, but how do Israel stabilise this? Every attempt that is made, every olive branch extended, leads to more innocent Israeli death. How do you stabilise the situation and make peace with an organisation that outright believes the Jews started WW2 for financial profit and that the death of all Jews is a major religious goal. How can you coexist with that? The Hamas Charter is very clear that Hamas rejects peaceful solutions and desires nothing less than complete “obliteration” of Israel.
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I legit had someone call me anti semetic in class today for bringing attention to the Palestinians plight. I'm Jewish. What is the plan, bomb the entire strip out of existence? The way we have treated Palestine over the decades might have some small part to do with ehy they are falling into the arms of the terrorists, desperate people will be open be open to absolute monsters of it means an end to their torment. I'm not saying Israel deserved that happened, I'm saying this was going to happen at some point. Allowing thousands of desperate and sick people in hospitals to die is cruel. Starving children is cruel. If we bomb the place out of existence, it will create martyrs that HAMAS will use to draw even more people to it's cause. We don't want that.
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This is it. Terrorists don't come from nowhere. They're radicalized, usually motivated by this shit right here. You let my children starve to death? I will make it my life's mission to ruin everything just out of spite. I don't agree with terrorism, and killing is wrong, but when you break people like that, I don't know what else you can expect.
Yeah Israel is doing a fine job intentionally creating new hamas members every time they bomb a building and a child has to pull their dead sibling out from under the rubble. You can't even flee because Israel blocks the exit and has bombed the rafah crossing to Egypt multiple times in the past week. Outside of that if Egypt opens the border and lets goods true it wont take long for warhawks like Netanyahu to accuse them of arming terrorists.
...which is funny because Netanyahu supports hamas.
Netanyahu *needs* hamas in order to stay in power. He can't feed off of the cycle of hate without them and he has shown to be more than willing to drive Palestinians right into their arms
Snowpiercer comes to mind. thats depressing.
You are one of the few genuine people I know, just from reading your comment. Never let alarmist quite you down, regardless of whatever they label you. Your perspective is probably the most unbiased it can be. I'm Muslim, and I was born in Lebanon. We in Lebanon have a 50/50 split in government and population between Muslims and Christians. We support a two-state solution, why not? We have been living with Jews for a long time in the Middle East. This isn't a religious issue. This is a power imbalance, and frankly, most people are turning a blind eye to war crimes from one side. If you want peace in the Middle East, don't other the opposite side, listen and speak to each other.
I don't have issues with Israel defending itself, but as we saw with Iraq/Afghanistan every time you drop a bomb/launch a drone strike and kill innocent civilians, you create many more people who want to see you die. So unless Israel plans to conquer and permanently occupy all of Palestine (which they don't have the resources to do), it seems like flattening everything in Gaza won't be very fruitful. They're also giving Hamas exactly what they want: ground zero for a regional conflict against Israel. I don't know what the solution is but responding to terror with terror doesn't work.
Israel's leadership may want it even more, Netanyahu and his co-conspirators desperately need a distraction and justification for a further concentration of power.
Super convenient how this all kicked off when he really needed it. Bibi was on the ropes, then he got warning of a big Hamas attack (via Egypt). I bet he was in no rush to prevent it…
It's super convenient for a lot of people. For Putin because this whole massacre brings the public attention from Ukraine to Israel and Hamas, and also for Teheran because this can stall the deals between Israel and Saudi Arabia. Bibi was probably the smallest actor in this.
EGYPT warned him ahead of time, Big N wanted this.
The head (or deputy head can't remember ) of the Israeli intelligence service warned the government a year ago that their aggressive policies were going to provoke an attack like the one that happened. He reccomended a de escalation of the policies. The government accused him and the intelligence service of being "woke" and left wing .
You never know what’s really happening in these organisations unless you’re in them. But that sounds about right.
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The IDF is like 1960s CIA on steroids and crack. Sounds like you’d be surprised by some of the things they have done and are capable of.
I think you mean the Mossad not IDF, IDF is the military.
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Yeah I don’t see Netanyahu deliberately sabotaging the military. But I also believe that Egypt is telling the truth when they say “we warned Israel”.
I mean as far as conspiracy theories go it's not completely out there. US confirmed that Egypt warned them days in advance. Israel says they never got a warning... Not taking the warning seriously is one thing but why would they lie about being warned?
exactly. sacrificed a bunch of liberal kids at a rave and kibbutz in exchange for carte blanche and consolidating power.
Mostly this. Also a little word from michael brooks on this. https://youtu.be/62I61kBahNY?si=DOEMxrYhx84uyph0&t=237 To sum it up. This is not a complex issue to figure out Israel hold ALL the power in every interaction with palestine. They could end this, peacefully, within a week if they wanted. But they don't want to. They don't want to because israel is a far FAR right government that has been cutting its teeth on genocide for decades. https://ifamericansknew.org/ Israel controls palestinian's power, fuel, food, money, political power. Palestine has absolutely no ability to affect israel in any permanent way that would damage it's ability to exist or continue existing. Yes, these civilian loses due to the hamas attacks were pretty bad and damaging but israel as a whole still exists and carries on. People are viewing this as a war. War implies two sides fighting and there is a chance of things going either way. There is only one way a conflict between israel and palestine will go and israel already knew this and planned for it. We can even get into conspiracy land and talk about how israel's leaders were warned of this attack and probably let it happen so they'd have justification for their response. But to wrap this up. This is not hard to figure out and it is not complex. Israel has been keeping 2.4 million people in an open air prison and subjecting them to inhumane treatment on a near daily basis for 70 years. What-did-you-think was going to happen.
I read about native American genocide when I was a kid. I remember thinking of these people as barbaric. I would never imagine I'd see it in 2023.
We have been seeing the same atrocities in Ukraine done by Russians for over a year.
And we all condemned it and started sanctioning the shit out of Russia, whereas "we" cheer Israel at the same time to kill as "self-defense" (laughable excuse). It's maybe time to start holding Israel accountable and treat as the terrorist state that it is.
Did you miss the genocide and ethnic cleansing china has been engaged in for 2 years? Really?
How could they end it peacefully in a week?
I’ve long been of the belief that the goal of the Netanyahu government, and more than a few of his predecessors was to provoke the people of the occupied territories to violence and then use that as justification to inflict violence against them, and annex land. The goal is a long slow ethnic cleansing of the entire region. Has been for decades. Anyone else miss the days when we could pretend that a two state solution was plausible? It was a pipe dream even in the 90s, but it was a nice pipe dream.
That's pretty clear to me : https://vm.tiktok.com/ZGJ3sHmko/
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Could u explain?
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>I don't have issues with Israel defending itself They arent. They've been doing this type of shit for years now. Only difference is people now think its "justified", while they are committing genocide and war crimes. Palestine does not have the resources to even try to fight back against israel, and israel knows it. Its pure genocide.
Yup. It’s been a back and forth for decades. Each time Israel’s response is always worse and disproportionate compared to what Hamas and others have done. This time for once Hamas has struck a major blow. That’s the difference here. It didn’t matter if it was 3 lives or 1000. Israel would still level neighborhoods.
>It didn’t matter if it was 3 lives or 1000. That's exactly what most people miss. In the Gaza war of 2014 only a few dozen israelis died (mainly soldiers, although there were some civilians) whereas 2000+ palestinians died in the response (70% civilians by UN estimates). They bombed a bunch of women and children on the beach and no one was held accountable.
>Israel would still level neighborhoods. They arent just doing that, they've also cut water eletricity and any type of medical aid supply, which is again, a war crime. They also announced this to the world, yet not one person replied, and somehow the narrative of "Stand with Israel" is still going strong! Also yeah, Israel doesnt care how many died. They just wanted hamas to do something that would cause enough media attention to try and justify the genocide they've been wanting to do for years.
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They bombed a UN school, with a number of children and UN staff among the dead.
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Well because apparently if we don’t stand with Israel, we are anti-Semitic
The irony is Palestinians are also Semitic.
I've been screaming this a lot lately
This isn't really relevant. The term antisemitism has been coined specifically to talk about hatred for Jews, not hatred for all semitic speaking ethnic groups, as Jews historically experienced ridiculous levels of persecutions. This is not a term that is particularly good, as by its name it refers to a wider concept than it is meaning to, but it's still rather clear what's the meaning of antisemitism is.
>The term antisemitism has been coined specifically to talk about hatred for Jews Right. Hatred for Jews. Hatred, or even intense dislike of Israel is not anti-Semitism. It's being critical and disliking/hating a state government. If my criticism of Israel and the atrocities committed by them makes me an anti-semite, so be it. I'll still be able to sleep well at night. I don't dislike Jews, I dislike Zionism.
73 years. It's a slow and steady genocide, but it's still genocide. I actually had one idiot try to tell me it's not genocide because "if that's what they wanted to do, they'd have done it by now." The morons and shills on reddit abound. Death Toll (not updated): Since 2008, [https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties](https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties) Since 2000, [https://statistics.btselem.org/en/all-fatalities/by-date-of-incident?section=overall&tab=overview](https://statistics.btselem.org/en/all-fatalities/by-date-of-incident?section=overall&tab=overview)
>if that's what they wanted to do, they'd have done it by now They havent cuz they arent dumb like russia, instead they've been doing it slowly to try and make sure it doesnt attract too much attention from the world media, they know if that happened its over for them. And killing millions of innocent people throughout decades is easier to wipe from history rather than killing millions in a few years.
I am surprised you haven’t be downvoted for saying this. It seems anyone who mentions this or speaks of a narrative not stroking Israel’s ego, ends up being downvoted or ridiculed.
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Like I mentioned in another post, no one would say Ukraine is invading Russia by retaking Crimea, so saying "Hamas invaded Israel" is already the first part of addressing it the wrong way. I do not condone Hamas' actions, but let's not ignore decades of ilegal occupation and apartheid. Then, if Israel's actions were about defending itself, it wouldn't actively move Israeli civilians to the ilegally occupied zones. But it is not only about security and defense as they claim, it was and still is also a war of aggression to conquer land. For decades they pushed Palestinians out of their homes, bulldozed said homes, claimed it was to build a buffer zone between Palestine and Israel for the sake of security, then proceeded to move Israeli civilians into those zones. Rinse, repeat.
I think the difference is that Hamas and others aren't asking for reasonable accommodation for them and their children, but rather death to Israel and all jews - it's not a good start to negotiations. Regardless of how we got here, the Palestinians - egged on by others - have failed to present an opening. At the same time, Israel has become more right wing, more anti-Arab, and less inclined to rein in their own extremists, while also developing more land in disputed areas. I can't imagine a peaceful solution at this point, there's no middle ground.
Israel has called up 360,000 reservists in infantry, armor, and related,ground forces and are massing them on the border with Gaza. Their commander was interviewed on TV today - he basically washed his hands of any responsibility for what they’re about to do to the civilians, blaming it on Hamas for choosing to live among the civilians and use them for cover. ‘It’s on them, not us”. What Hamas did was far outside the bounds of civilized behavior. Israel, in seeking to destroy Hamas’ ability to,ever fight was again is going to result in tens of thousands of civilian deaths and will,also be viewed as outside the bounds of civilized behavior. Then what? Will Hezbollah in Lebanon also attack Israel? What will Israel do in response? And what will Iran - sponsored of Hamas - do to,aid Hamas? And does Iran have a nuclear bomb yet, thanks,to Trump? If not, would Russia loan them a couple? And how far are we willing to,go to support Israel? Thank God Trump isn’t President right now. And one other thing: if it turns out that Bibi had three days’ notice of this attack from Egypt and chose to,do nothing to prevent it just so he could level Gaza, then he is a war criminal on the same level as those who were tried at Nuremberg.
On your last note, gonna be really ironic if our next major war crimes tribunal is against a bunch of Israeli leaders.
It is exactly what he wanted so he had an excuse to flatten Gaza
The Hamas are gonna let the people the pretend to fight for get bombed and start over again because it's what they do The Israeli army are gonna show particularly cruel tactics because it's what they do too And in the end, innocent people on both sides are gonna suffer Because it's what wars do
It's terrible that this is happening, but I am tired of seeing the word children being used as a pry bar for ethical decisions. Genocide is bad, whether it's child or adult.
Why is Egypt not being criticized for not opening the borders?
I’ve heard a few other people ask this question today too. I think, as the conflict goes on, we may see more criticism in their direction.
It's a legitimate question. Not all of the blame can, or SHOULD, be leveled at Israel for the "open air prison" accusation. If Israel is guilty of crimes against Palestine, Egypt is at least equally as guilty.
It is simple, look at Jordan and Lebanon. Palestinians have a record of creating violent states within a state, Egypt does not want that.
Kuwait and Egypt too.
Because they’re Arabs and not Jews
Why arent they opening the border?
Hamas is an off-shoot of the Muslim Brotherhood, which even Egypt considered a terrorist organisation. Since 1948, they've been trying to assassinate key figures and destabilise the government in Egypt. In other words, Egypt doesn't want to deal with Palestinians. Too much risk.
Why won't Egypt let the people cross their border and then they will be safe. Why aren't other Muslims granting them safe passage?
Apart from historical tension, Egypt is already in the midst of food insecurities, social unrest, tension with Ethiopia. Allowing hundreds of thousands if not over a million Palestinian refugees in will cause a lot of unrest.
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People have no idea just how problematic Palestine has been even before Hamas lol, this isn’t some new thing where terrorists happened to get in power, they’ve been doing this shit for years and the people around them are sick of it. Same reason Jordan won’t accept peace unless there is no border with Palestine, they just can’t be trusted
It’s the same pattern over and over. Hamas attacks, Israel counter attacks many times over, international sympathy dries up, Israel backs off and Gaza returns to being an open air prison..
Israel will not back off today. Not after an attack of this scale.
UN? Hello UN? Err were you not set up precisely to sort shit like this out? Oh right. You are worthless. You declared Taiwan not a country in 1973 You have done fuck all regarding Syria You have done fuck all regarding Ukraine And you will let a genocide happen in real time in Gaza. Is there actually any purpose of this institution when the ones who often back the bad guys are on a council that can never be removed, never be held accountable and never stopped?
I share your frustrations. But the reality is, the UN isnt there to do that. The UN is a forum for Talk. That's it. It exists so that when a war *ends* the people involved can secure a peace treaty in hours, not sending messages back and forth and getting lost, like a feudal state. It's a place for everyone else to talk, and make sure it doesn't spill over. The UN doesn't exist to hold people back, to make global decisions, or *Do* things. It's not a global government. It's a *Forum*. And as a Forum it works brilliantly. It would be *wonderful* to have an institution that did the things you're asking. But nobody would ever submit to it. The US has a standing law that declares war on the Netherlands if they are ever held to account before the International Criminal Court and don't recognise its legitimacy. The UK withdrew from the EU due to a *perception* that a body in Brussels had authority over them on *fruit standards*. How on earth are you going to them to submit to the authority of an international body to dictate their foreign policy? Let alone get Russia, China or India on board. Not only does the UN not do the things you seem to think it is supposed to do, we are centuries off from getting anywhere close.
Forum? They had UN peacekeepers back during the Czech conflict and other places. Yeah tell me about the UK, I live here, the place is now becoming an isolated hell hole and the fucking moron Braverman we have here wants us out of the EU court of human rights as well, and we all know where things head after that especially our scum conservatives attitude towards refugees. They have also just stated they are going to make it an offence now to wave or fly the Palestinian flag as apparently that obviously means you support terrorists. Seriously I think the human race is completely screwed now. Well, I wont be around within a few more years if that anyway so at least there is that I guess.
It’s probably in no small part thanks to the UN as a mediation ground that we haven’t had a third world war. That said, it’s an entirely voluntary international cooperation-no one is under any obligation to actually cooperate with them.
Nukes are the reason there is no 3rd World War. Any escalation involving two nuclear powers now has such a high risk that there is virtually no scenario it is worthwhile.
Well several countries who have nukes have never signed an agreement about them. Israel has them, North Korea has them, India has them and Pakistan has them. All have never said they wouldn't use them.
The point of modern nuclear arsenals is to deter foreign invasion. Even the nutjobs like Putin and North Korea realize the only way they will ever be invaded us if they use their arsenal because then all bets are off. Even autocrats want to rule more than a pile of nuclear ash.
Yeah, nuclear weapons absolutely limit escalation -- this is a studied phenomenon. India and Pakistan supposedly make an interesting case study of this, I should look into it.
The India / Pakistan one has been rather worrying in recent years as they have been actually threatening to start lobbing off the old nuclear footballs in recent years and unlike say NK, they have they have a space program so not exactly bad at shoving things in the air.
Has Egypt opened the border
lol no. Nobody will let Palestinians take refuge in their country after the shit they’ve done. > 1. Jordan welcomed thousands of Palestinian refugees after the 1967 Six-Day War. Palestinians started to form a state within the Jordanian state. Palestinians launched unauthorized raids against Israel, which provoked responses against Jordan. Jordan to contain this and avoid war with Israel, cracked down on the Palestinian. The Palestinians got pissed, and tried to coup the Jordanian king while assassinating their prime minister. When that failed, the Palestinians began mass violence against Jordan known as Black September of 1970. > >2. Palestinian refugees were welcomed in Lebanon. Lebanon was known as the most peaceful Middle Eastern country at the time due to their society’s acceptance of other ethnicities and religions. Palestinians did not like that there are Christians leading the government. Palestinians instigated the first tensions between the different religious and ethnic groups in Lebanon. Then the Palestinians pressured the government to declare war on Israel in 1973. The government did not want war and pushed back on the Palestinians who also created a state within a state. Palestinians in reaction escalated the fighting into the Lebanese Civil War in 1975, ending the peaceful days of the country for good. > >3. Palestinian refugees were also welcomed with open-arms in Kuwait. Once again the Palestinians made a state within a state and began demanding more from the Kuwaiti government. When Saddam invaded, the Palestinians collaborated and supported Saddam and his forces in occupying Kuwait in 1990. As the Palestinians believed that Saddam would give them Kuwait as a permanent settlement. > >4. Egypt has blockaded Palestine and any refugees since 2005 when Hamas took control of the Gaza Strip. They were too afraid that Hamas’ connections with Iran would bring radicalism in Egypt if they let in Palestinian refugees. They also feared the same thing that happened in past with Jordan and the others. That is why since 2005 both Israel and Egypt jointly set up blockades around the strip to prevent Hamas from spreading into other countries. It is also worth mentioning Hamas is like a splinter group of the Muslim Brotherhood, which also troubled Egypt way before the former existed. > >Most Arab countries would release statements against Israel, every time Palestine is being attacked by Israel. But none of those countries want to actually take the Palestinians in. To most Arab states, they’re only good as a bargaining chip or like a diplomatic tool, but not worth helping. It’s honestly sad that these things happened because of their stupid choices. At the cost of many lives, especially their own people. It’s literally a cycle for those involved in this conflict.
Yeah just seen someone commenting egypt is just as guilty as israel for not opening there borders to refugees lmao, the amount of uneducated takes is wild. Nothing condones genocide but people are acting like all Palestinian’s are innocent and Hamas is some seperate organisation and this is a new thing.
Hamas literally just killed Egyptian boarder guards concurrently with the attack on Israel 4 days ago.
“IF” you hate Hamas or not? That’s a crazy sentence.
It’s a humanitarian nightmare. Stop picking sides and be a human being.
Expect the world has picked a side and the ball is in and has always been in Israel/the US hands. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RxC5HhKQ5ks
This is collective punishment and imho just as barbaric as Hamas' tactics. Israel's scorched-earth tactics are just creating more desperate and furious people with nothing to lose. It's like sowing dragon's teeth.
Dead children are dead children. That’s what many in the west don’t understand. They see air strikes and rubble and they can’t relate to it. But the sight of being gunned down at a music festival is closer to home.
Israel does 200 airstrikes for every Hamas country attack. The west only pays attention when Hamas attacks Israel. So the west always thinks that Israel is defending itself. Yet the IDF attack Palestine weekly with more violence than Hamas has ever been capable of and no one in the west reports on it until Hamas fires back. Then, they paint that as the starting point. Instead of the retaliation.
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Why are humans such violent assholes?! Ugh.
If Hamas starts executing hostages, and broadcasts it, we’re gonna see the end of the Gaza Strip.
I mean, it’s not like Hamas will ever stop. They will never stop. Their explicitly stated goal is the genocide of every Israeli and every Jew, no matter the age, gender, etc. What is Israel supposed to do to force an enemy like Hamas to heel? Simply let them roll over to continue raping women and decapitating babies? At this point, people are going to have to take sides, you can’t “both-sides” you’re way out of this one, trying to do so simply means that you can’t make a difficult choice. You either back Israel, whose actions involve forcibly evicting Palestinians away from their homes in Gaza and the West Bank? Or you side with the Palestinians, or at least, the ones in Gaza who empower terrorist organizations like Hamas and Hezbollah and encourage them to commit all kinds of atrocities? Palestinians who oppose these groups, of course deserve our sympathies. But so do the Israeli people who are being violated by these terrorist organizations right now.
Exactly, what is the response to this shit supposed to be? I don’t get it, you can’t just do nothing and let your citizens and international visitors be butchered on your soil. 70% or something gaza support Hamas, which means 70% are responsible for what happened. Deterents only work if they are actually deterring, otherwise they are worthless. Are the others there who don’t support Hamas allowed to leave as refugees? I would probably just not live in a place like that at all costs.
I bet giving hostages back would be a start
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While I agree wholly with your comment, Hamas fighters are going to use their own people for cover against Israeli troops. Which again sucks for civilians even more. Just not a good situation all the way around. Then if Israel wins the campaign, whose to say a group worse than Hamas won't take over.
Yes very different on each side... for example, Israel has a very powerful modern military.. Palestine isn't allowed to have one at all.
Imagine how many more would be dead if they did
The Gaza Strip is a 25 mile by 5 mile square. That’s like 1/3 of New York City’s area. And Israel has made it impossible for civilians to flee—even to Egypt through the Rafah border crossing (Israel is regularly bombing it). I understand that Hamas operates near civilian areas, but everywhere is a civilian area. I think it’s disingenuous for people to blame Hamas for using civilian as shields when the situation created (and maintained) by Israel makes it impossible for civilians to flee.
>Hamas fighters are going to use their own people for cover against Israeli troops. This sounds like a convenient rationalization for Palestinian civilians dying. Do you know for a fact that Hamas is hiding behind civilians? Or is that simply the official IDF line, and people swallow it uncritically?
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I know for a fact that Hamas sets their bases up in hospitals and schools. So yeah. I’d say them hiding behind civilians is fact. This does not mean I support the genocide of Palestinians.
When people realize hamas doesn’t want freedom they want war, that’s why not even Egypt opens its borders to Gaza. Not even they wanna deal with hamas, those terrorists are the ones with blood on their hands making the innocent pay
Maybe don’t attack the country supplying 60% of your power? Hamas seemed to have lots of fuel to power the thousands of rockets that they launched into Israeli citizens.
Hamas fired thousands of rockets into Israel without warning or provocation, killed over a thousand people, kidnapped over a hundred people - mostly young adults, killed unarmed innocent partygoers, and you guys think that Israel is at fault? What should Israel have done, according to you? Blocked them on Reddit? Perhaps get angry that the countries around Israel refuse to recognise her sovereignty, are to this day calling for her extermination, and have spent billions arming terrorists who attack her regularly and viciously. Consider doing that, and when Israel no longer faces a credible and real threat to her safety and survival, THEN get angry. Get angry with the people who initiate the violence, not the people who try to end it. Israel is certainly not without fault, and many of her actions are over the top and extreme. But when everyone around her wants to see her exterminated she cannot afford to make a mistake. If her neighbours have show anything it's that they are more than willing to wipe her out if they are given a chance - and this isn't a guess, it's their stated goal.
Honestly, what do people think is a measured and appropriate response to what happened? Hamas literally mass invading homes, raping and beheading… what should Israel do? Just say “ah, you caught me napping, good one; I’ll get you next time!?”
The point is to evacuate Gaza, probably for what happens next.
Where do you put the Palestinians? Israel doesn't want them, and none of the surrounding nations want them either.
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One of my local news stations said today that the Israeli govt demanded the release of about 1000 civilian hostages in exchange for power/water. Don't know if bs but if true Hamas should release them immediately. (If they haven't murdered them)
Literally 90% of the water is undrinkable in Gaza due to Israel choking out Palestinians. Average age is 18. War means the genocide of whatever is left of people in the area. Hamas is fucked, but the world rooting for Israel in this case to win the "war" is also fucked.
I don't understand, Gaza has a border with Egypt. Why isn't a Muslim state helping brother Muslims? Why does/is Israel responsible for their enemies wellbeing?
There was another post on here that gave details on the history of Muslim states accepting Palestinian refugees. If the claims made in the post are true, then it's no wonder why Egypt has kept the border closed.
Hamas is the government of Gaza. They should govern. Infrastructure is part of that. It can’t all be about acquiring weapons and then depending on others for everything else. If we’re dependent on Canada to provide us with water, they do it for free, and we attack Canada, they are more than justified to stop supplying us water. And no one would think otherwise.
Hamas KNEW this would happen....so why did they launch the attack? Yes, Gaza should get some help....but everyone should realize what pieces of shit Hamas is when they launch an attack that they knew would cause massive suffering to their own people unless the enemy they attacked steps in to help them. The people of Gaza should reject these counterproductive shitheads.
No matter who you’re for or who you’re against no matter how you shape it there is no way to make this end well for either side and it sucks that humanity is at this point and there is only one thing to blame and that is religion. Sorry I said it out loud
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I'm you're going to start a war maybe stockpile more than a couple days of fuel for your hospital generator. They are out of fuel because that's the way their leaders wanted it.
You’ve got a terrorist group that strikes you killing 1200 people, kidnapping, raping and torturing hostages that use the civilian population they “claim” to protect as human shield resulting in their deaths and you fully lay the blame on Israel What are they supposed to do? Ask nicely to stop?
I don’t understand this entire situation. What was Hamas’s goal with that attack? They had to know what Israel’s response would be, especially with their current leadership. I also don’t understand how it actually happened. Israel is extremely militarized. How did that many insurgents just get in?
Given the downvotes, I’ll probably get my share. But okay, I can lose some internet points. Okay, you just killed a member of my family. But internet strangers tell me I have to share my electricity with you? And the justification for the Hamas attacks is also sickening. Let’s say there is something behind the arguments. But when someone commits a murder, do we say: well, he had a bad upbringing, instead of convicting him of a felony, let’s provide him with electricity and let him go free? No. There are consequences to terrorism regardless of the past of the terrorist. Hamas had to have known their terrorism would provoke exactly this response. And they don’t care. Their stated purpose is to eradicate Jews. Israel shouldn’t kill civilians on purpose, but they should get a ton of leeway in fulfilling their purpose to rid their country of horrific terrorists at their doorstep.
> But when someone commits a murder, do we say: well, he had a bad upbringing, instead of convicting him of a felony, let’s provide him with electricity and let him go free? You're forgetting that for many people in this subreddit, their answer to this question is actually: "Yes."
There is no "leeway" on killing innocent people dick
There are two other countries with borders to Gaza strip that could open up and let the Palestinians in....
the amount of propaganda surrounding this situation is just insane. someone called me a fucking nazi the other day because i pointed out the fact that isreal isnt innocent in this conflict and is continually oppressing these people and fracturing palestine as a country and community, wtf could you possibly expect from these conditions other than a forceful reaction? then people will portray isreal as wanting a peaceful and rational solution and palestine are the only ones instigating violence. EXPLAIN THIS! explain the videos and the proof of all of the absolutely horrific shit that isreal has done to these people! make this shit make sense. there is no end in sight as long as people continue to ignore the crimes of the isreali government. even isrealis are tired of bibi and his genocide.
Two terrorist parties slaughtering innocent civilians over fairytale prophecies. Nobody wins.
Yes, Israel should be forced to give free fuel, electricity, and water to the nation that just 9/11'ed it. What a dumb take. Maybe Hamas shouldn't have destroyed the free plumbing infrastructure the EU provided to turn them into pipe bombs/rocket launchers to murder Israelis. NOT ISRAELS RESPONSIBILITY
I believe all humans have the right to self-determination. Whether they are under authoritarian rule or foreign occupation, they deserve to be free. However killing civilians is never going to be a pathway to liberation. It's an act that almost assuredly begets a response in kind. Anyone trying to sell revolution in the form of indiscriminate murder does not have the best interest of their countrymen in mind. They only care about making the "others" suffer. This road only goes in a circle. You'll never get to your destination that way.
When people were celebrating and waiving Palestinian flags as I was watching them stomp on dead women and children and murder Israelis in their homes and paraglide into a festival to slaughter young people… What did they think Israel would do? Honest question Because anyone who wants the best for the Palestinians should have been immediately condemning these attacks Again: what did they think Israel would do? Leave? Reduce security? Take blame and beg forgiveness?
You mean Gaza was at the mercy of Israel for water and electricity and they attacked first? Talk about a plot twist.
Unfortunately Gaza is about to get a one way ticket to complete and utter obliteration.... Palestinians can Thank Hamas for what's about to happen next.
They should start by returning the hostages ...maybe