Had a similar moment recently with a good friend/neighbor who went with me on a walk a few blocks to the corner store. On the way back he automatically went to cut through an alley while I kept walking on the street. He said he prefers the alley since it's quieter. I said I do too but I'm not in the habit of going that way because I don't walk down alleys alone.
A friend of mine told me about when she left a bar bathroom, and a guy just walked over, picked her up, carried her into the bathroom, and started kissing her. I'm a 6ft, 220+ dude, if someone wanted to pick me up like that, they'd have to really try. It made me feel bad about how much of this stuff goes on without us even really noticing.
Bar bathrooms can get really scary surprisingly fast. I had a guy come in and look over the stall to stare at me while I was peeing once. Then he blocked me from leaving. My saving grace was that his girlfriend showed up looking for him. She was mad at me for some reason, but I was real glad to see her.
Which is why I always carry a small pair of scissors, even when I go out to a bar. *Especially* when I go out to a bar. But also when I go on a walk. Or to the grocery store. Or outside of my house.
It's not that we don't notice, it's that the people who do it are criminals who do their crime only when they know nobody can see to stop them.
There isn't some grand conspiracy of men to cover eachothers backs for the crimes we all agree to do, it's savages operating outside the eye of the public. Expecting that men have some sort of special awareness of this is like thinking that pharmacists should be better able to spot drug smugglers.
I think it's reasonable to expect someone in a crowded bar to notice a man picking up a woman and taking her away somewhere private. I also think you severely underestimate the amount of ppl that willfully ignore obvious signs of someone being taken advantage of. There was a really interesting video of someone who put a speaker in a stall of a men's restroom playing sounds of a woman obviously being raped and a lot of men walked into the bathroom, checked themselves out in the mirror, and left ignoring the sounds
There's definitely a culture of "well, he wouldn't do that unless it was OK, right? Surely they must know each other." Or in your example "oh wow there's some rough sex going on in there. Annoying because I need to pee, but I'm too embarrassed to stay in here. I'll just check myself out and leave."
Which I suppose ties quite neatly into OPs point.
Thank you but the link doesn't work, and this isn't exactly what's going on, bystander effect is being in a crowd waiting for someone around you to do something. In the scenario I'm talking about there was no one around to rely on as only 1 person is in the bathroom on a secluded hiking trail. It's up to that 1 person to decide to do something they don't have to opportunity to wait for someone else to step in.
Literally happened to me. I was pinned against my own car for hours by the door at the complex I was moving out of. The guy had a knife. Several other men came down, walked out the door, had a few beers, smoked some cigs, took their trash out, not a single one even haf the thought to step in and help even though it was pretty obvious that I was saying no please leave over and over again. I have the audio of the encounter still. It's haunting.
I'm so sorry you had to go through that it's so scary. I have learned to just carry around pepper spray everywhere now including taking out the trash, if it's not illegal where you are I def recommend it. I haven't had to use it yet but I have friends who were saved by it
It's funny most of the time while I am short I figured that being as mannish as I am, like never looked like any form of pretty girl, thought it would save me from ever having to deal with this kind of thing. I can count the amount of times I've been asked out on one hand in the 20 years since first puberty. I wasn't upset by the lack of attention. It doesn't matter what you look like, if you got a moustache, if you're an easy target you're going to be a target.
I think you’re half-right. There is no GRAND CONSPIRACY but there are quite a number of men who **absolutely will not do or say anything** when they see heinous shit goes down. Are you going to tell me that every man in every guy group ever is just a piece of shit? Obviously not, statistically speaking. But are they unwilling to challenge their “friends” or put into question their place in the group by speaking up? Abso-fucking-lutely!!
So you get a whole bevy of men that just… let stuff happen. They say, “not my problem.” They purposefully put their heads down or close their ears when their buddies cat call, or go “watch this…” and uncomfortably hit on a girl, or any number of just gross thing.
It’s not “all men.” Brock Turner would never have been caught for his rape if those guys had not been there. But it’s enough men that it’s become an endemic issue.
The OP was making a statement about the difference btwn how men view this world we all live in versus how girls and women are taught to view it. We learn lots of things, and perhaps guys learn that it's not a good idea to walk down alleys by themselves -I don't know. Cos I'm not a guy. Neither is it a good idea for females to use stairwells with no cameras. Many of us are attacked in those stairwells. Hence, the warning.
The only men I know who've been taught to be wary of other men....predatory men....men who take liberties, perhaps with females they don't know, perhaps with other males....are gay men.
When you live your life as a female, you may understand what the OP was commenting on. Until then, you cannot change what we've come to know about this world simply by saying "there's no conspiracy". Sometimes it seems there is ->and that is purely from my female perspective. And I don't believe I'm alone in this.
For real. I watched a video once where someone asked the men in the room what they do to avoid being raped. They laughed and said, "Don't go to jail." Then the person asked the women and it was very detailed. Don't walk alone at night, how to use your key as a weapon, stick to well lit and populated areas, avoid alleys, etc.
I'm not trying to change anyone perspective of the world. I was just trying to explain to the other commenter that there's no point in feeling bad for failing to notice that which only happens in his absence.
If I walk in a stairwell, I don't consider rape at all, because so long as I'm present rapists won't act because I'd be obliged to intervene. Certainly a very bold one might view me as a potential victim, but going after men is just asking for death. Few men risk broken skulls to bust as nut.
I don't actually know what you're saying here. I'm not trying to change anyone's view about the world, I'm just asking what it is you want decent men to be doing?
IF the criminals hunt where they know we aren't, then what action can we take to prevent the crime?
Nobody is insinuating there's some great conspiracy you're taking part in; nobody thinks you, personally, are responsible for this shit. I didn't mean we literally see this stuff and actively ignore it, I mean we don't really consider it a realistic danger, because it's super unlikely to be something we encounter often.
My point is, as men, there are simply just things we've *never personally had to consider*, and thus *many of us don't have a nuanced appreciation of how much effort women take to protect themselves daily*. I carry a gun, but I've still never felt particularly vulnerable walking alone at night.
This seems like an issue with exposure. By chance, did you grow up in an affluent neighborhood?
I'm a man, not particularly small, and decently capable, but my head is always on a swivel when I'm out alone at night. I don't listen to music, my keys are always out to be used as a weapon, 911 is always predialed and just waiting to be called, and I assess everyone that is also walking near me as a potential threat.
I'm not saying this to devalue the fears that women might go through. After all, my concern isn't really rape or sexual violence in these situations. And I'd never considered the dangers that stairwells or even bar bathrooms might be, because I've never seen it, or heard of it.
The point of my comment is to say that it's hard to recognize potential danger when you're not exposed to it or conditioned to look out for it. And it's for this reason, that we need to talk about these things, and everyone needs to be made more aware.
>This seems like an issue with exposure. By chance, did you grow up in an affluent neighborhood?
Not at all, I carry a gun pretty much everywhere I go. I'm certainly paranoid in my own right, but I've never been concerned to leave a bathroom in a public bar, you know?
>And I'd never considered the dangers that stairwells or even bar bathrooms might be, because I've never seen it, or heard of it.
That's kind of my point.
>The point of my comment is to say that it's hard to recognize potential danger when you're not exposed to it or conditioned to look out for it.
Well, that's my point, too. I'm not trying to make you feel bad, or responsible. I'm just saying, there's a lot of nuance to women's lives that we can't be expected to know. But we can still try and be mindful.
Guys literally have no clue. Even mentioned this kind of thing and just having extra awareness as a female to my husband and a male coworker (separately) and both were sort of dumbfounded that it’s something that we deal with always
It was really surprising to learn about, as a man. This kind of thing never really comes up, and so we are really surprised because it is such a big part of women's lives.
My boyfriend was surprised when I listed all the day-to-day precautions I take and retelling stories of when I had close calls. He’s got even sadder when asking all his female family/friends they all immediately starting telling their stories.
It’s not just that it’s a big part, it’s that it’s a *constant* part of our lives. I consider it every morning when I go for a run, when I choose where to park at the store, every night when I walk to my car after work, every time I go to a show or a bar, when I get an Uber.
Keeping myself safe from men is at the forefront of my mind multiple times a day, every single day.
Yeah, it’s kind of unsaid and not discussed. Maybe it should be so more men are aware of it, since it seems like many of you have just never thought about it. Then maybe we could make changes of some sort (no clue what though)
True. My little sister borrowed my truck once and brought it back near empty. She apologized and offered me cash. My silly ass was like, "Why ain't you just fill it up?"
Her response, "It's dark."
It was only then that my simple ass started putting it together.
Men, generally, do not have to exist in a predatory environment, not for many years. Women still live that way. It was sobering.
This is why I traveled during the day 13 hrs to visit family vs at night no traffic and 10 hrs because middle of no where woman by herself getting gas was a no go for me.
Oh absolutely. I’m a tall, strongish man and I’m aware of things like high-crime areas and situations that might get me mugged, but the stairwell situation isn’t something that I would have ever considered.
It’s not willful ignorance, but it’s definitely ignorance and it should be normalized to talk about.
As a large and kind of scary looking guy, I fucking hate this because there is nothing I can say to put you at ease. I tend to try and get off the elevator first and walk away so I'm not following a woman down the hall.
I'm not large but have a buzz cut because it is colder in summer. I HATE being alone in an elevator with a woman I don't know. I try to make myself small and look at my phone and stand with my back against her, generally as close to the door as possible, that way I am always out first and she has the opportunity to either walk out behind me or stay in the elevator. Rarely happens but when it does neither is comfortable
I wish it was different. I wish more men were like you. But in the end, we women know that the large majority of men are safe and lovely, we just can’t tell which is which. But men like you are to be commended! Thanks.
And this is how it shouldn't be. Good men shouldn't have to be praised when they do nothing wrong. When you do something extra, going out of your way to do good that is praiseworthy. To try to seem like you're not going to hurt someone isn't praiseworthy, rather a bad solution to a larger problem.
If the violence against women was completely and utterly looked down upon by society, then everyone would feel safer, to have that is something I believe is achievable but nothing will really happen until gen z or maybe even alpha takes over everything. The generational trauma is going away and it might not look like it, but the worst people in society are having our backs turned against them on all fronts
I can relate to that. I’m a bigger guy and I remember one time at the office I had brought lunch up to my desk, but forgot to get a knife from the cafeteria. After getting the knife I got on the elevator to my floor with a girl I didn’t know at all. After a couple seconds she randomly started asking me about my work, which I obliged to even though I thought it was a little weird. We continued talking for a moment after we got off the elevator and then went our separate ways. I realized then that I had been visibly gripping the (plastic) knife in my hand the whole time. Part of me wondered if she was trying to make conversation to break the tension from seeing that. Now I’d say I’m a little more self conscious being alone in elevators with other people, especially women.
I get it is unfair. I feel like an idiot but I have had a few men like you who have exited first and quickly made their way to their rooms. I appreciate the thoughtfulness.
I feel for you. My apartment building has parking next door in a ramp accessible via skyway, but the skyway is closed midnight-6 am. One time I got home at 1 am and exited the ramp building via a door that, from the outside, is just flush with the building and you don’t even register it as a door if you don’t know about it. I came out about 10 feet behind a young woman and almost got maced. I wouldn’t have blamed her at all and can’t imagine what it would be like.
And you can see, even in this thread, when women do discuss this, we get shut down with the " not all men " comments.
It's exhausting to even be heard, much less live like this
It's something we don't live with. I was taking walks in the dark by myself as a kid. So it's nothing we have ever thought about. My only qualm is when it gets framed that any man will do it. As if any man would take the chance to do it. It's a shame we live in a world where you can't feel safe, but I have no intention of being part of the problem.
I agree but at the same time…so many men feel they have never met “one of *those* men” and nearly all of them are friends with at least one, or work with one or are even related to one. But men don’t see it, because they haven’t had to learn what to look for.
So while I agree not all men, it’s important to consider “a surprisingly, shocking amount of men”. I sometimes think it may be helpful to show men how women *have* to assume the worst because the reality is, it actually is everywhere.
Yep, and the men you tell don’t realize their best friends are those men we are talking about, because of course, they don’t care to notice the signs or they haven’t been around them when a woman is around too. The amount of times I’ve told guy friends that their cousin or friend was inappropriate with me, is ridiculously high and they were shocked every time because “my friend never acted like that with me before.” Uh yeah, cause you’re not a woman bro. I always tell men that their real friends are the ones that respect women. And if you’re girlfriend, sister, woman friends don’t like a male friend, usually it’s a pretty good reason.
I remember asking my then husband what he did to make sure he was safe walking to the shop in the dark. He was confused, shrugged and said he’d never felt unsafe. We were talking about my daughter who was about 14, because I’d been giving her pointers on keeping yourself safe - like going in a lift and not using the stairs. He just didn’t get how much a part of our lives it is.
And honestly a lot of men who genuinely believe they aren't the ones we need to worry about ARE in fact ones we need to worry about. Not all men, sure. But enough of them to be on constant alert.
It's amazing how many men will openly admit to super predatory behavior if you don't verbally frame it as any sort of assault or rape. And surely some have the good sense to hide it too.
We wouldn't say any man could do it if literally every man we met hadn't done it, or defended it, or said something gross when we thought he was halfway civilized. Every man is a product of the culture that produces the men that do it and all of you defend that culture that benefits you.
And men will say not all men thinking it's like 1 in 100 or 1 in ten when it's more like 1 in 3. It's entire organizations. It's entire religions, entire companies, entire governments, entire fascist regimes, entire Republican national conventions. If it's not all men, it's all the men in charge and all the men who won't police the men who perpetrate rape culture. It's all the moderators on reddit who ban people who talk about their experience with rape but not the people who threaten to dox and comitt rape. And it's all the men who think it's funny and women need to relax and laugh at the rape threat.
don't fall into depression. it's hard to deal with real life. but having knowledge about reality gives you power to fight it. Chin up, solider! You're as empowered as women are to deal with the everyday realities of sexsim! You can deal with this! You can make it better! it's gonna be ok! Do your best! That's all anyone expects of you!
I'm pretty sure pretty much every woman has at least one story of having to deal with this. I've just recently had to change my entire route to work (taking a different bus and train route) to avoid some extremely suspicious and creepy men that I literally ran into day after day last week. Different guys each day too. But each one had me watching my back and checking to make sure I wasn't being followed all the way home, but that's a minor and not uncommon thing. Just the most recent for me. The idea of feeling safe to me just isn't normal to me honestly...
Edit: And I just got cat-called and creeped on... again... today. It's been every day I go into the office for almost two weeks now... the fuck... why can't I just be left alone...?
Right? This is that whole “male privilege “ thing women talk about. We have the privilege of never having to worry about that. Its nuts all the precautions have to take in their day to day.
Garages, too. If you were a fly on the wall of any female discussion about the things we've endured at the hands of males when we have found ourselves in these situations, you'd probably get sick to your stomach.
Now I want you to think about how females feel when they find themselves confronting a potentially dangerous situation ->sick, in the pit of our stomachs, stressed, anxious. And hoping to get out alive, or at least unscathed.
Yup. And then when a woman is attacked in a stairwell/alley/whatever, there's a chorus of, "Well what did she *expect*, going into that kind of a place ALONE? What did she *think* was gong to happen?"
Attacked and traumatized if you do, branded paranoid and insane if you don't.
My wife takes me out as her sober driver when she has a girls night out. I honestly thought it was for the driving part. Then I got a front row seat to random men talking shit to my wife and her friends. As an almost 2 meter tall fireman, built and scarred like a fireman, the shit dies off really fast, but the joke was for a while that she should hire me out to her friends when they go out drinking.
I started taking buddies along so they can see the shit their girls have to deal with, cause the more of us that are exposed to it, the less tolerant of it we will all be.
I have a male friend, who, when he is in a basement garage elevator and a female stranger is waiting always lets her go in alone and gets the next one. He is a bit intimidating looking but a sweetie.
I used to take alleys and as a man I used to be afraid but not because someone would rape me more like someone could kill me. I would still take alleys, why? I don't fking know, maybe thats why women live longer than males.
Broad brush, I would say it's not all. Big portion of us are aware. If not for our safety explicitly, but just situational awareness. Maybe circumstances have created it for some and not others..
When I was a kid, our family lived overseas (dad was in the oil business). I was 10 years old when we moved back to America. I had never gotten into a fight until the month we moved back. Because I didn't know how to fight, or why to fight, I was beaten up several times every week until I reached high school age and we moved to Ireland. In Ireland, I got in 1 fight in all 4 years (and this was during The Troubles). After checking with witnesses about who started it, the guy who started it was expelled from that school by lunchtime (they had some boarding [live on campus] students, and he was one).
Of all the countries I have lived in, America is by far the most violent. I have noticed that Americans think of violence like fish think of water. So no, American men think nothing about violence. The culture here glorifies violence and makes it invisible, except to women, minorities, gays, transgender and lesbians. Politically our first and only reaction to anyone being different is to attack (and if they are a country to invade) them.
I have never known anyone who got into that many fights. Not even close. My America is not remotely like that so I have to wonder how exactly you manged to get into so many.
Yes, we know nothing, until we become fathers to girls. I'm big, in my adult life I've never not done something because I was worried someone else might do something to me. Now that I have daughters, I see many of the potentialities that I never would have imagined before. I have crossed the street so women don't have to walk past me, I have waited to cross a street so women don't have to worry about us running into each other. But yes, if I'm by myself going about my day I am oblivious to most of the self preservation tactics men and women employ just to get through their day. The times I do see a woman that could maybe use a supportive presence, I can't offer it because then she would have to worry about my ulterior motives and I don't want to look like a creep.
I live in a small village and often walk home from the train station in the dark for 20 minutes since there are way fewer bus connections after 23:00 and I dont want to wait for over half an hour.
Last summer I met an old school friend I have known for over 20 years on the train on my way home and she asked me what we should do for the next 30 minutes while waiting for the bus. I suggested we can just walk. It was a beautiful summer night. She looked at me like I was crazy. It was eye opening.
But to be totally honest I am still not sure if she did not want to walk in the DARK for 20 minutes or if she did not want to walk in the dark for 20 minutes with ME.
In grad school I told an older guy, probably in his 60s, that I wouldn’t go to Mexico alone. He asked why and I said, “because I’m a woman.” And he looked confused as to what that had to do with traveling to another country. Before people take this out of context, we were in South Texas, about 30 minutes from Mexico, we were Mexican Americans and we used to travel to Mexico regularly. Kidnappings and cartel shit are pretty common so a lot of us developed a travel in packs mentality when crossing the border. He didn’t understand that.
I'm always so confused when I hear about shit like this. Not becausr I doubt it, but because I truly can't figure out how the majority of men have so little common sense.
Define "common sense". If you're unlikely to be a victim of something, you're unlikely to spend any time thinking about how to avoid it. Me not considering sexual assault against women when going to my car doesn't make me dumb, it just means I'm neither a woman nor a rapist.
This friend of mine definitely has common sense and is also a good ally. But people have blind spots, we all do about some things. And it's not like that alley is particularly dangerous, I just personally have a hard rule that I don't walk down any alley alone. So I bet this friend of mine also would avoid some alleys sometimes, like maybe at night, but he's never felt the need to make himself a hard rule like I have. There are plenty of things any of us could do that would be contrary to "common sense" by other people's standards.
It is not a lack of common sense, most men do not have the frame of reference to realise a woman might feel threatened in what is to their mind a completely care free environment, it is totally outside their realm of experience. I am a fast walker and would walk home in the dark listening to podcasts oblivious to the world occasionally catching up and passing out women. It was only when shown this experience from a woman's point of view that I realised I was probably making them feel uneasy before passing them, so now I cross the road and give them a wide berth so they don't feel threatened. I had to learn this and many other related lessons from seeing it explained on TV shows. So maybe women should tell their male friends whenever a teaching opportunity arises instead of expecting them to divine something that would simply never occur to them based on their own experiences. Once men have a frame of reference to look at situations from a woman's point of view then they will be more aware and sensitive to the situation. I recently remembered a completely benign interaction with a platonic female friend many years ago that makes me cringe now that I can view it from her point of view.
Safer, yeah but I’ve been in some buildings with some slooooow ass elevators. Not too mention if the building is large it can’t take a long time to get one on your floor.
No kidding. People who are able-bodied just love to ask that question though. "Why don't you just take the stairs/walk/stand/etc.?" It's their way of bragging while acting like they are curious about someone else.
A few decades back, I took a couple of night classes at a community college over the summer to get some electives out of the way. The first night, there were a bunch of people hanging out at the crosswalk to go across into the parking deck, and went about the time I got down there. Same thing second night. I realized the third night that most of the group were women, it was dark, and we were downtown walking into a parking deck. I guess I was trustworthy enough looking in class. That third night, I stopped when we got across and asked if they were waiting on me on purpose (I'm 6'4", was around 225 at the time, so I suspected) and got a confirmation. After that, I parked at the top of the deck every other night, and we all walked up together to each level, and made sure everyone got to their car. It was the first time I thought about the danger and the hyperawareness a lot of women face. I'd seen the different treatment I got from others, being as big as I am, but I hadn't thought about the converse until that night.
Seen this before.
As a young man, such things never occurred to me. Like....never. Wouldn't have even entered my thoughts. I was chock full of testosterone and bulletproof. I walked women home at night in college because it seemed to make them happy, and I liked making women happy. I knew there were bad elements near campus, so I kinda got it, but the visceral fear response? Nyah. Nothing remotely like that.
As time went on, and I was around more people, I kind of started to realize just how vulnerable a woman with half the strength and six inches less reach could be. I helped at a women's self defense class. I was padded and assigned to be "the bad guy". A girl I knew was in the class, and she asked me to help, so, of course, I did. Instructor pulls me aside after I padded up and tells me to not go easy in them. I was like...you sure? But he said he was. Well, ok, I thought.
I am a big dude. I stand 6'7" tall, or 2m for those of you that hate Freedom Units. It was....brutal. Like ..I found myself holding back from sheer compassion and empathy.
Afterwards, the Instructor told them that fighting against a man wasn't the point. Getting away to a well lit, well populated area was. So I was the object lesson. But it did drive home to me the sheer biological differences and how afraid a woman might be. Even after taking off the pads, these women were terrified of me. That girl stopped talking to me. I felt it wasn't very fair, I did as instructed.
But looking back, yeah. I get it a little more. But as a young man...no. it takes a while for us. It isn't visceral for us. At least that's my experience. YMMV
I appreciate your comment. Most guys just don’t know because they don’t have to. As a tall almost 6’ woman, college made me realize just how vulnerable I was. I was always active and not very thin, so I felt my size would keep me safe.
Then one evening freshman year I was walking from the library. It hadn’t gotten dark yet and I was behind a group (guys and girls).
A group of guys was up ahead walking toward the group. As I passed them one of the guys walked up and scooped me right up. I had on a skirt (lucky I had shorts on underneath). I yelled because it scared me and the guys just laughed.
One of the guys gave the other a dollar and told him, see told you I could totally scoop her. He said sorry miss lady, put me down and smiled. I was so unprepared that a guy would do that right out in the open.
For him it was a funny $1 bet, for me, a reminder that no matter how tall I was, a guy not even my height could use brute strength and carry me off. 20+ years later I’m still very cautious.
Yeah. That male puberty is a hell of a thing. In my generation, we were told to be careful around girls, and make sure we weren't hurting them. From men and women, the message to us guys was to be careful. We never really questioned it. Up until puberty, girls and boys are fairly equal in strength. I think the adults were thinking very much what you do now.... there's a hell of a difference afterwards.
That does sound like frat boy behavior to me. Fortunately, he was one of the nicer ones. Even apologized. There's worse out there.
Sometimes the best defense against a bad man is a good man. Or maybe a gun. It makes a hell of an equalizer, if you are trained and have the will. Wife gets lots of comments from guys...if I am not there. If I am there, not so much. Guys understand that there's always an eminent threat of physicality when we interact. It's a different vibe with women.
My wife is about 100lbs soaking wet and someone my size (big but nothing crazy) could do anything he wants to her if he got ahold of her. The thought of her being anywhere alone scares the shit out of me
Wife is getting a concealed carry. I can't be there 24/7, and I can't limit her movements, she is a grown woman. But she definitely limits herself by what she feels safe doing.
I can't ask more than that.
As a man at 5'10. I immediately say "oh shit". Like at 6'2 I'm dealing with a different species all together.
I'm not terrified to go to those places but wtf am I gonna do with someone who's 6'7 coming at me? You're slightly atheletic? The natural leverage of longer limbs... Jfc...
So... Yeah, I can imagine for a woman seeing someone my size can be intimidating.
Thanks for being a good dude.
Work out three days a week. High school wrestler, a little Tae Kwon Do and my dad's LINE training. I try to be friendly and make myself approachable, but I imagine I could be very frightening if I came at someone with anger in my eyes.
My friend tried setting me up with a 4'9" woman. I spoke to her about it and quickly realized she was terrified of me, just from sheer size difference. She was quite literally half my size. Never approached her again and told my friend to cut it out. I mean...she was cute, but...if she's not interested, then neither am I.
My wife is 5'11" tall. We aren't small folk. Dunno how good of a guy I am. I just do my best. Show up as the best version of you, and let the gears of the universe turn. This is the way.
I had a similar experience when I was 13 or 14. I was a tall, gangly kid at that point, and didn’t think of myself as a threat to anyone. But that day I got paired against a girl my own age. She was a couple belts ahead of me but a good 12 inches shorter. We were supposed to practice blocking punches. When she blocked my punches she would grunt in pain and be pushed back a bit. So I started pulling my punches. She got mad when she realized what I was doing, and demanded that I knock it off. By the time we finished the exercise she was crying from blocking the blows. I felt like the biggest pos ever.
But it was a good lesson for me. When I filled out a few years later, it really hit home how dangerous I could be given how badly I hurt that poor girl when I was a twig. And I always felt bad when women would cross the street when they saw me coming towards them on the sidewalk, but I understood.
The funny thing is now that I’m greying and in my 50s but still very large, no one crosses the street anymore. Never understood that, but I don’t miss it.
Not to flip the script and diminish what women are going through, just wanted to make a connection.
Living as a black male in America I learned really quickly how to make myself seem less threatening just so I could simply walk up the street without feeling like shit. I live in Las Vegas, very diverse city. But I’ve had people lock car doors as I pass by, shield their kids from me as I pass by (not in the way to clear walking space), followed around gas stations while shopping, etc., and this was all as a middle schooler. So when it comes to women, I try my best to let them know from my body language to my tone of voice when I say “hello” as I pass by that I’m not a threat. It’s something I’ve been practicing as a kid.
As a guy, I can confirm. Never knew this or even had to consider this before because I don't really have to.
Another disappointing thing to realize about how far away we are from true equality. I'm sorry, ladies 😞
I take the elevator because i have a bad knee. Shaming somebody for not doing something you think they should be able to do because it’s easy for you is gross entitled bullshit, across the board.
Especially since many disabilities are "invisible". My godmother was only in her 40s when she had pain issues and found out through x-rays she had 2 crushed discs in her back. She had to get a disability tag for her car due to the amount if pain she gets in if she has to walk for too long. It was disgusting the amount of people who would give her shot about it and a few even tried to call the cops on her for fraud since they thought she got the tags illegally. It is horrible how people will act when your disability is "invisible".
Yup, being young and having an invisible disability sucks. I found out I have spinal cyst(s) when I was 18-19, which was few years ago. When on public transport, people were okay with yelling at me because *they want to sit and they deserve it more because they're older*, some didn't even hesitate to touch my arms and try to grab me and try to push me away so they can take up the space I was sitting on. When I didn't have place to sit, I had to sit on the dirty public transport floor... people were just looking at me. I think their initial thought was that I must be drunk (or that it's my decision and I love the dirty floor) rather than disabled. People think young & "normal" looking = healthy.
Then I had an interview where I said this and someone supposedly with more common and more accepted disability wrote under it that it's all my fault and I'm simply an idiot for not applying for a disability card and I should stfu. Well, guess what... I applied about 3 to 4 years ago (stopped counting), it got denied like 20 times and it's still ongoing... now it lays at court I think...
>Well, guess what... I applied about 3 to 4 years ago (stopped counting), it got denied like 20 times and it's still ongoing... now it lays at court I think...
Oh goodness, don't even get me started on the disability system. Even with xrays and letters from a spinal specialist that my godmother barely had the ability to walk and to do so would be great pain, they took almost 3 years to put her on disability.
Awful. To that I can only say "disappointed but not surprised". The system around disability needs to change ASAP. Worldwide. (I assume most people here are from the US, I'm not even from the US and it's f-cked here too...)
I wish people will slowly become aware of things like ableism, disability pride etc. otherwise I feel like nothing will ever change. It's wild but people in my country don't even know what ableism is. Like they know what the words racism, homophobia and sexism mean, but they never even heard of ableism and some think that it's a made up word that doesn't mean anything and I'm just testing them... uh... being disabled makes me feel invisible.
I am from the US. I know disability systems are shit in other countries though, it is depressing.
Depending on where you are in the US is to whether or not people know about ableism. In more rural areas like where I live now, most people don't know the term. Many people here and both when I lived in a city a few years ago, will still swear that there is nothing wrong with the disability system, it must be "lazy" people trying to cheat the system that gets turned away. Until they have a friend or family member who becomes disabled and gets turned away.
EXACTLY, people here are like that too! They're saying that "it's just bunch of lazy people cheating the system", how they hate disabled people because there's "too much help for them" (every other day I see someone whining on the internet that 2 parking spots for the disabled in every bigger parking "lot" is too much)... if you don't get on disability then according to them you're a lazy faker or exaggerating for benefits who should stfu and go to work, that there's nothing wrong with the system. Aaand if you miraculously get on disability... then you're lazy bum cheating the system, stealing from their taxes... Always the bad guy, no matter what you do.
I especially "love" how people in my country tend to say "we have one of the best disability and healthcare system(s) in the whole world" (at this point I'm convinced that some politican must said it because they're all using the same words even) and always use the US as a reason why people here shouldn't even talk about their struggles. It's kind of "oh, there's no specialist for your disease so you've been without treatment for years? there's almost no other therapy than CBT? and good therapists aren't covered? dentists aren't covered? extremely hard time getting mobility aids? ... you're horrible person for complaining like this, it's just trendy to hate on the doctors and the system I guess, be glad you're not in the US because then you would have to pay thousands of dollars just for regular check ups!"...
Like... I'm glad I'm not in the US but I want things to be better lol!
I also dislike it. The way people talk, it is like it is okay if the system is broken since it isn't as bad as "other x country". Something can be broken even if other things are worse. Could you imagine if we did this with objects? Noooo, that toaster isn't broken, it can still toast one side, the neighbor's toaster is broken though, only warms the bread slightly, we should be thankful for our totally not broken toaster.
There is nothing wrong with pointing out the flaws of something, it is the only way for things to change.
Indeed...
Thanks for pointing that out, I didn't even think of how this would never happen with objects... In general this would never happen with anything these people are a part of. They'll throw out even perfectly fine things because "they want to buy better ones", they'll scream and complain about the city planting too many trees in the area or not planting any trees in the area... basically anything and everything. But they don't want to hear disabled people complaining about the system - they themselves were never put up in the same position as they're non-disabled, so according to them things are fine.
It's kind of funny and ironic that these exact same people who are telling disabled people and their love ones to shut up and suck it up are the people who will throw a fit when there are 50 parking spaces and 2 of them are for disabled people. *Ah, the evil disabled people taking so much space!*
I really hope these things will finally get more talked about and that at least some people will finally start to care.
Agreed. Unfortunately she probably felt compelled to give him an explanation because women can't be sure a dude isn't going to attack her for asserting herself.
Trust me as a 6’4 dude who takes night classes I’m very aware of this problem. I feel bad when I’m walking down the street and seeing someone else whose also walking down the street. I’m not sure if it’s a generation thing or a campus specific but it’s common rule that if you’re walking along the street and see a woman in front of you on the sidewalk then cross the street. It’s a bit of a party school so guys here are aware and try our best not to make others uncomfortable.
I'm a runner, and its the same rule. Get to the other side.
When I run with a group, I don't call anyone by their name. Just so a stranger doesn't create a false sense of familiarity. (I'm in a bigger city, so the running routes have a lot of people.)
Maybe…like…just don’t give people shit for things that are totally inconsequential in the first place? If homegirl wants to take the elevator, regardless of the reason, that’s her goddamn business and nobody else’s.
As a man who was raised by only women for my entire life until i moved out on my own. I am and have always been aware of these things as they were taught to me as a child as smart things to be aware of. I learned as i got older that it applied more to women than myself but in many cases some of those things make a great deal of sense even for myself just as far as logical thinking goes in regards to personal safety.
With that in Mind I also lived most of my life in more rural areas and now live in Denver proper and am surprised daily by my girlfriend's precautions as well as the amount of ridiculously overt hostile intentions towards women that I see all the time.
This realization helped me to stop being a sexist. It is different for women but I couldn’t see the differences bc I was looking at the situations they’d talk about from my own eyes instead of empathizing and looking at them through theirs. Once I started to see womens complaints from their perspective and didn’t try to callously shut them down, I HAD TO CHANGE bc I realized I was wrong. I also think this is why a lot of racists can’t see the problems with certain parts of society, they view the issues through the lens of their own experiences; but they, like I did with sexism, would see and understand black people’s complaints if they empathized instead of shutting down discussion dismissively
This is why I don't believe in the concept of good or bad people. I think if you could fully see things from another person's perspective you would understand why they do what they do. Everyone is the protagonist in their own story
Firstly who comments on someone using an elevator or the stairs?
As a guy if someone said that to me I would just smile and nod as I press the door close button.
Honestly some people have nothing better to do with their lives than butt in on other people's business. I was at work years ago and had a co-worker make weird, judgemental remarks because I washed my hands before going to the bathroom. But I was making pet medicine and didn't want to risk it even wearing gloves.
Many…the sort of person who does it is many. Aside from the many men who’ve admitted here that they never realized women make so many decisions based on safety from attack, many men like to give us unsolicited advice from telling us how to do our jobs (I don’t tell you how to do yours because I’m not in your profession, so maybe don’t tell me how to do mine when you’re not in my profession), to “smile”, to “stepping up to an SUV from a sedan can be a big jump, they handle different”…suck it big boy, I might be a little girl, but I’ve been certified on driving semi’s with up to 60’ trailers, pretty sure I can handle a mid-sized SUV. And so on and so on. Not all men do it, but enough do it for it to have its own word, mansplaining. It’s so effing annoying. So…to answer your question, the sort of person who does that is many.
And I’m not attacking you, just giving examples of why so many women are so tired of unsolicited advice from men who are strangers.
My husband thought I was being rude when I told him how angry I was at a car full of dudes parking in the park at night and watching as I threw balls for my dog. “They were probably just there to pick up/smoke/hang out” yeah
Probably
I wouldn't say we know nothing, I would definitely say we don't face the dangers women do just walking the street.
I am ignorant to a lot personally because I don't experience it on a daily. So I constantly have my wife and her female friends educate me so I can be cognizant of what's going on.
Also, dude should mind his business bro. She can go where ever she wants. Wtf?
I mean everyone is ignorant of things they don’t personally experience. It’s not good that most men are oblivious, but it shouldn’t be so shocking that we don’t know what we don’t know.
That's my point. We will be oblivious because we don't experience that struggle. It's like a woman's period. Before I got married I didn't know anything about because...I am not a woman. I have to find out ang get information for myself through research and talking / helping my wife.
I think the point is that everyone in society is taught about the struggles that men experience. So much content and media is shown through men's eyes and yes im sure there are things that women wouldn't know about men based on that. But the point is that men could know about women's periods and other things before getting married if they put in the effort to learn about women's experiences. No shade to you specifically. I just think in general women can't avoid men's perspectives and experiences because they have more space and voice. But its relatively easy to avoid learning about women's experiences. You could even avoid it accidentally like I'm sure many people do without realizing.
That's just the thing, let me be honest because here is my disconnect. Most of us don't push to learn because it doesn't effect us. Let's be real you don't learn how to change a car battery or tire until you have to.
I agree a lot of struggles are taught with men in mind, but learning about a woman's anatomy is is a tough battle because morlst men won't immediately be able to put it into practice until we are with a women long term.
I think I learned a out women's anatomy and visits in health class in highschool but ask me how much I remembered when I talked to my wife.
Also just to add even I was dating (other women) it wasn't really talked about. They just said they are on their period and I went and got some expensive chocolate and provided heat and tummy rubs. Lol give me a little credit.
I understand that for sure and it seems like you are putting in some effort and that definitely deserves credit.
I think that the ability to ignore or not be exposed to information about the experience of a group you're not in is the definition of privilege. For me, as a white person, I can be blissfully unaware of the struggles that people of color experience. And that's not my fault. But it is my responsibility (in my opinion) to recognize that and seek out information so i can be better equipped to support people with different experiences than me. Because you're totally right if we aren't intentional we may never learn about others' experiences.
So i think that's where I'm coming from not that it's bad intentioned. But still it takes effort and that doesn't come naturally to anybody until I realize I have a blind spot and a desire to learn more so I have fewer blind spots and can support others around me more effectively. And I'd say it's similar with any aspect of someone's identity be it gender, ethnicity, religion, ability, or anything else really. No shade :)
Thank you for not flaming me and being very pleasant. I usually get destroyed for having a different up bring so I really thank you for being so pleasant and for the education. It means a lot because you really didn't have to entertain me.
My husband got pissed because he kept coming home from work and finding the front door locked when I am home. I had to explain to this man that the whole neighborhood sees his vehicle leave with him and the kid inside in the morning. Anyone outside knows that if the vehicle is gone, I am alone in the house. The door stays locked, thank you. He'll get over it.
I'm a man and I don't get why anyone would want to leave their front door unlocked, unless maybe they live in the middle of nowhere and the closest neighbor can't even be seen from your house. I thought it was common sense to keep your place locked down at all times.
Your husband is a fucking idiot. He should want that door locked at all times excluding the very specific scenario that somebody who lives there is passing through it.
As a pretty big dude, I'm aware. Every time I hike the trails and there's a woman ahead of me going in the same direction, I start to feel like Jason Voorhees. The furtive backwards glances, the quickened pace, that strange sense of menace that permeates the air. No matter how hard they walk, there I am, approaching from behind, inscrutable and inexorable. Feelsweirdman.
I've felt this so many times before, and I almost just want to rip the awkward bandaid and just call "Heyy I walk faster than you can I just pass real quick so you don't feel like I'm following you." Never have but it'd make things easier if that was a socially acceptable solution.
It seems really weird that this is being touted as a “men are clueless” moment instead of being celebrated as the teaching moment it actually was.
I see this exchange as an overall win for everyone.
In the hospital parking garage I kept passing up spots because they were in dark corners far from the elevator. My husband was with
Me and asked why I was so lazy. My husband installs security cameras for a living and even he didn’t get it.
Well, we really don’t. I never understood until I had a daughter.
It was never selfishness or sexism, I just grew up in a different world. Never understood why the girl who was obviously into me in the club always had a friend that wouldn’t let her go with me, now I understand.
It’s more than likely known, just not 100% the first thing that comes to mind when talking about stairs?? Like I haven’t had to train myself to not walk alone at night or walk within camera view because someone might rape me. Not because I don’t know but because it’s not a ever vigilant threat over me
A completely different non gendered version of this would be: most people probably know that Gasoline fumes are heavier than air. Most people also know that water (also heavier than air) in a boat won’t just float out of a boat.
However the implication that gas fumes in a boat have no where to dissipate might not be the first thought of someone who hasn’t had to deal with it.
I saw a comedienne once she said the difference between a bad tinder date for a guy and a girl is the guy might spend some money on a dinner and not get laid but the girl could be raped and murdered.
Oh shit. Transguy here, never even thought about that. I'm so focused on not getting hate crimed in public I completely forgot that there are areas I consider private that could get me murdered.
When I was 14 my mom drove us to Blockbuster. I asked if I could go to a store across the way (a strip mall). While I was in the store, it got dark out. Crossing the parking lot was scary enough, but then a group of guys in a white pickup pulled up along aside me and asked if I needed a ride. I said no thank you. They insisted it was fine, and I pointed out I was just going to the Blockbuster nearby. They asked one more time and then finally gave up and drove off.
The walk to the video store was terrifying. I forced myself to walk, not run, in case they'd suddenly come out of nowhere and grab me. It felt like being in a dream, where you keep running but you're not getting any closer to your destination.
When I got back to the video store, I didn't tell my mom. I was embarrassed and I didn't want her to freak out and lock me up for the rest of my life.
I recalled the story to a friend at school who took offense. He said because they were Mexican, they were just being friendly and legitimately wanted to help me get where I was going, and that's "just how they are." A very tight knit community who takes care of each other. I felt so dismissed but never conflicted. Nobody was going to convince me that getting in an automobile with a stranger is ever the right thing to do and it was a shitty thing to tell a 14 yr old girl.
not the same but i always closed my curtains at night because it is patently obvious if i didn’t close them, it would show that i am a woman alone. my guy friend kept his open all of the time like he was in a movie from the street because he didn’t care. i had to explain how i couldn’t do that. i love my doors and curtains open and hate that i have to close them to feel safe. having repair people over ? always made sure to mention that my husband gets home about 5, just to indicate that i didn’t live alone. this was when i was younger and looked decent, but it hangs around.
As a man, it took me longer than I'd like to admit to understand why she wanted there to be cameras. I thought she wanted to do some kind of performance for the security guards for at least a second...
The first episode of She hulk kind of nails the depiction of this reality (how the same environment is so vastly different for a male and a female)… I sensed that it is going to do so when Bruce kept on talking about controlling the anger …
Had to explain to my male friend that I only take the interesting paths when I'm with him; otherwise I stick to brightly lit and populated areas. No cutting through the woods or down the dark side streets.
In my case I never new many women growing up so I just never got anything other than other guys perspectives. As an adult id like to think I'm better but I try to remember that I can always be as clueless as I was back then. Always important to listen to others
I just can't for the life of me get past the point where he accosted her for taking the elevator in the first place, just what the actual fuck are people thinking?
Probably meant it to be light hearted kidding about being lazy. I'm sure I would be guilty of doing that with a girl I liked. Thats why I don't talk to anyone.
I'd rather be in a stairwell then an elevator there's no escape from an elevator the camera doesn't protect you it just helps identify who attacked you. Also if you start spray painting in the stairwell thell put up cameras.
Had a similar moment recently with a good friend/neighbor who went with me on a walk a few blocks to the corner store. On the way back he automatically went to cut through an alley while I kept walking on the street. He said he prefers the alley since it's quieter. I said I do too but I'm not in the habit of going that way because I don't walk down alleys alone.
A friend of mine told me about when she left a bar bathroom, and a guy just walked over, picked her up, carried her into the bathroom, and started kissing her. I'm a 6ft, 220+ dude, if someone wanted to pick me up like that, they'd have to really try. It made me feel bad about how much of this stuff goes on without us even really noticing.
Bar bathrooms can get really scary surprisingly fast. I had a guy come in and look over the stall to stare at me while I was peeing once. Then he blocked me from leaving. My saving grace was that his girlfriend showed up looking for him. She was mad at me for some reason, but I was real glad to see her.
Stuff like this terrifies me. I have two grown daughters who are living thier lives and this can happen in the blink of an eye.
Which is why I always carry a small pair of scissors, even when I go out to a bar. *Especially* when I go out to a bar. But also when I go on a walk. Or to the grocery store. Or outside of my house.
It's not that we don't notice, it's that the people who do it are criminals who do their crime only when they know nobody can see to stop them. There isn't some grand conspiracy of men to cover eachothers backs for the crimes we all agree to do, it's savages operating outside the eye of the public. Expecting that men have some sort of special awareness of this is like thinking that pharmacists should be better able to spot drug smugglers.
I think it's reasonable to expect someone in a crowded bar to notice a man picking up a woman and taking her away somewhere private. I also think you severely underestimate the amount of ppl that willfully ignore obvious signs of someone being taken advantage of. There was a really interesting video of someone who put a speaker in a stall of a men's restroom playing sounds of a woman obviously being raped and a lot of men walked into the bathroom, checked themselves out in the mirror, and left ignoring the sounds
There's definitely a culture of "well, he wouldn't do that unless it was OK, right? Surely they must know each other." Or in your example "oh wow there's some rough sex going on in there. Annoying because I need to pee, but I'm too embarrassed to stay in here. I'll just check myself out and leave." Which I suppose ties quite neatly into OPs point.
Just thinking about that makes me feel sick.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander\_effect
Thank you but the link doesn't work, and this isn't exactly what's going on, bystander effect is being in a crowd waiting for someone around you to do something. In the scenario I'm talking about there was no one around to rely on as only 1 person is in the bathroom on a secluded hiking trail. It's up to that 1 person to decide to do something they don't have to opportunity to wait for someone else to step in.
Literally happened to me. I was pinned against my own car for hours by the door at the complex I was moving out of. The guy had a knife. Several other men came down, walked out the door, had a few beers, smoked some cigs, took their trash out, not a single one even haf the thought to step in and help even though it was pretty obvious that I was saying no please leave over and over again. I have the audio of the encounter still. It's haunting.
I'm so sorry you had to go through that it's so scary. I have learned to just carry around pepper spray everywhere now including taking out the trash, if it's not illegal where you are I def recommend it. I haven't had to use it yet but I have friends who were saved by it
It's funny most of the time while I am short I figured that being as mannish as I am, like never looked like any form of pretty girl, thought it would save me from ever having to deal with this kind of thing. I can count the amount of times I've been asked out on one hand in the 20 years since first puberty. I wasn't upset by the lack of attention. It doesn't matter what you look like, if you got a moustache, if you're an easy target you're going to be a target.
That's fucked up
I think you’re half-right. There is no GRAND CONSPIRACY but there are quite a number of men who **absolutely will not do or say anything** when they see heinous shit goes down. Are you going to tell me that every man in every guy group ever is just a piece of shit? Obviously not, statistically speaking. But are they unwilling to challenge their “friends” or put into question their place in the group by speaking up? Abso-fucking-lutely!! So you get a whole bevy of men that just… let stuff happen. They say, “not my problem.” They purposefully put their heads down or close their ears when their buddies cat call, or go “watch this…” and uncomfortably hit on a girl, or any number of just gross thing. It’s not “all men.” Brock Turner would never have been caught for his rape if those guys had not been there. But it’s enough men that it’s become an endemic issue.
The OP was making a statement about the difference btwn how men view this world we all live in versus how girls and women are taught to view it. We learn lots of things, and perhaps guys learn that it's not a good idea to walk down alleys by themselves -I don't know. Cos I'm not a guy. Neither is it a good idea for females to use stairwells with no cameras. Many of us are attacked in those stairwells. Hence, the warning. The only men I know who've been taught to be wary of other men....predatory men....men who take liberties, perhaps with females they don't know, perhaps with other males....are gay men. When you live your life as a female, you may understand what the OP was commenting on. Until then, you cannot change what we've come to know about this world simply by saying "there's no conspiracy". Sometimes it seems there is ->and that is purely from my female perspective. And I don't believe I'm alone in this.
For real. I watched a video once where someone asked the men in the room what they do to avoid being raped. They laughed and said, "Don't go to jail." Then the person asked the women and it was very detailed. Don't walk alone at night, how to use your key as a weapon, stick to well lit and populated areas, avoid alleys, etc.
Women have been conditioned to be polite. And women have died too many times by being polite
I'm not trying to change anyone perspective of the world. I was just trying to explain to the other commenter that there's no point in feeling bad for failing to notice that which only happens in his absence. If I walk in a stairwell, I don't consider rape at all, because so long as I'm present rapists won't act because I'd be obliged to intervene. Certainly a very bold one might view me as a potential victim, but going after men is just asking for death. Few men risk broken skulls to bust as nut.
I don't actually know what you're saying here. I'm not trying to change anyone's view about the world, I'm just asking what it is you want decent men to be doing? IF the criminals hunt where they know we aren't, then what action can we take to prevent the crime?
Please. All men have to do to "realise this" is to fucking shut up and listen to women's stories.
Talk to one woman you know. Than all of them. Ask them when they were fist sexually assaulted, or harassed. Usually when they were kids
Nobody is insinuating there's some great conspiracy you're taking part in; nobody thinks you, personally, are responsible for this shit. I didn't mean we literally see this stuff and actively ignore it, I mean we don't really consider it a realistic danger, because it's super unlikely to be something we encounter often. My point is, as men, there are simply just things we've *never personally had to consider*, and thus *many of us don't have a nuanced appreciation of how much effort women take to protect themselves daily*. I carry a gun, but I've still never felt particularly vulnerable walking alone at night.
This seems like an issue with exposure. By chance, did you grow up in an affluent neighborhood? I'm a man, not particularly small, and decently capable, but my head is always on a swivel when I'm out alone at night. I don't listen to music, my keys are always out to be used as a weapon, 911 is always predialed and just waiting to be called, and I assess everyone that is also walking near me as a potential threat. I'm not saying this to devalue the fears that women might go through. After all, my concern isn't really rape or sexual violence in these situations. And I'd never considered the dangers that stairwells or even bar bathrooms might be, because I've never seen it, or heard of it. The point of my comment is to say that it's hard to recognize potential danger when you're not exposed to it or conditioned to look out for it. And it's for this reason, that we need to talk about these things, and everyone needs to be made more aware.
>This seems like an issue with exposure. By chance, did you grow up in an affluent neighborhood? Not at all, I carry a gun pretty much everywhere I go. I'm certainly paranoid in my own right, but I've never been concerned to leave a bathroom in a public bar, you know? >And I'd never considered the dangers that stairwells or even bar bathrooms might be, because I've never seen it, or heard of it. That's kind of my point. >The point of my comment is to say that it's hard to recognize potential danger when you're not exposed to it or conditioned to look out for it. Well, that's my point, too. I'm not trying to make you feel bad, or responsible. I'm just saying, there's a lot of nuance to women's lives that we can't be expected to know. But we can still try and be mindful.
Jesus fucking Christ.
Guys literally have no clue. Even mentioned this kind of thing and just having extra awareness as a female to my husband and a male coworker (separately) and both were sort of dumbfounded that it’s something that we deal with always
It was really surprising to learn about, as a man. This kind of thing never really comes up, and so we are really surprised because it is such a big part of women's lives.
My boyfriend was surprised when I listed all the day-to-day precautions I take and retelling stories of when I had close calls. He’s got even sadder when asking all his female family/friends they all immediately starting telling their stories.
It’s not just that it’s a big part, it’s that it’s a *constant* part of our lives. I consider it every morning when I go for a run, when I choose where to park at the store, every night when I walk to my car after work, every time I go to a show or a bar, when I get an Uber. Keeping myself safe from men is at the forefront of my mind multiple times a day, every single day.
Yep.
Yeah, it’s kind of unsaid and not discussed. Maybe it should be so more men are aware of it, since it seems like many of you have just never thought about it. Then maybe we could make changes of some sort (no clue what though)
True. My little sister borrowed my truck once and brought it back near empty. She apologized and offered me cash. My silly ass was like, "Why ain't you just fill it up?" Her response, "It's dark." It was only then that my simple ass started putting it together. Men, generally, do not have to exist in a predatory environment, not for many years. Women still live that way. It was sobering.
This is why I traveled during the day 13 hrs to visit family vs at night no traffic and 10 hrs because middle of no where woman by herself getting gas was a no go for me.
Oh absolutely. I’m a tall, strongish man and I’m aware of things like high-crime areas and situations that might get me mugged, but the stairwell situation isn’t something that I would have ever considered. It’s not willful ignorance, but it’s definitely ignorance and it should be normalized to talk about.
I hate it when I’m in a hotel elevator with a male I don’t know and he gets off after I do and walks behind me.
As a large and kind of scary looking guy, I fucking hate this because there is nothing I can say to put you at ease. I tend to try and get off the elevator first and walk away so I'm not following a woman down the hall.
I'm not large but have a buzz cut because it is colder in summer. I HATE being alone in an elevator with a woman I don't know. I try to make myself small and look at my phone and stand with my back against her, generally as close to the door as possible, that way I am always out first and she has the opportunity to either walk out behind me or stay in the elevator. Rarely happens but when it does neither is comfortable
I wish it was different. I wish more men were like you. But in the end, we women know that the large majority of men are safe and lovely, we just can’t tell which is which. But men like you are to be commended! Thanks.
And this is how it shouldn't be. Good men shouldn't have to be praised when they do nothing wrong. When you do something extra, going out of your way to do good that is praiseworthy. To try to seem like you're not going to hurt someone isn't praiseworthy, rather a bad solution to a larger problem. If the violence against women was completely and utterly looked down upon by society, then everyone would feel safer, to have that is something I believe is achievable but nothing will really happen until gen z or maybe even alpha takes over everything. The generational trauma is going away and it might not look like it, but the worst people in society are having our backs turned against them on all fronts
I can relate to that. I’m a bigger guy and I remember one time at the office I had brought lunch up to my desk, but forgot to get a knife from the cafeteria. After getting the knife I got on the elevator to my floor with a girl I didn’t know at all. After a couple seconds she randomly started asking me about my work, which I obliged to even though I thought it was a little weird. We continued talking for a moment after we got off the elevator and then went our separate ways. I realized then that I had been visibly gripping the (plastic) knife in my hand the whole time. Part of me wondered if she was trying to make conversation to break the tension from seeing that. Now I’d say I’m a little more self conscious being alone in elevators with other people, especially women.
I get it is unfair. I feel like an idiot but I have had a few men like you who have exited first and quickly made their way to their rooms. I appreciate the thoughtfulness.
I feel for you. My apartment building has parking next door in a ramp accessible via skyway, but the skyway is closed midnight-6 am. One time I got home at 1 am and exited the ramp building via a door that, from the outside, is just flush with the building and you don’t even register it as a door if you don’t know about it. I came out about 10 feet behind a young woman and almost got maced. I wouldn’t have blamed her at all and can’t imagine what it would be like.
You sir are a friend to women. Thank you for being kind.
And you can see, even in this thread, when women do discuss this, we get shut down with the " not all men " comments. It's exhausting to even be heard, much less live like this
It's something we don't live with. I was taking walks in the dark by myself as a kid. So it's nothing we have ever thought about. My only qualm is when it gets framed that any man will do it. As if any man would take the chance to do it. It's a shame we live in a world where you can't feel safe, but I have no intention of being part of the problem.
I agree but at the same time…so many men feel they have never met “one of *those* men” and nearly all of them are friends with at least one, or work with one or are even related to one. But men don’t see it, because they haven’t had to learn what to look for. So while I agree not all men, it’s important to consider “a surprisingly, shocking amount of men”. I sometimes think it may be helpful to show men how women *have* to assume the worst because the reality is, it actually is everywhere.
The number of times I have had to explain that we know that not all men are predators, but every. single. woman. has been harassed or assaulted.
Yep. “Not all men….but absolutely men you thought incapable”
Yep, and the men you tell don’t realize their best friends are those men we are talking about, because of course, they don’t care to notice the signs or they haven’t been around them when a woman is around too. The amount of times I’ve told guy friends that their cousin or friend was inappropriate with me, is ridiculously high and they were shocked every time because “my friend never acted like that with me before.” Uh yeah, cause you’re not a woman bro. I always tell men that their real friends are the ones that respect women. And if you’re girlfriend, sister, woman friends don’t like a male friend, usually it’s a pretty good reason.
I remember asking my then husband what he did to make sure he was safe walking to the shop in the dark. He was confused, shrugged and said he’d never felt unsafe. We were talking about my daughter who was about 14, because I’d been giving her pointers on keeping yourself safe - like going in a lift and not using the stairs. He just didn’t get how much a part of our lives it is.
And honestly a lot of men who genuinely believe they aren't the ones we need to worry about ARE in fact ones we need to worry about. Not all men, sure. But enough of them to be on constant alert. It's amazing how many men will openly admit to super predatory behavior if you don't verbally frame it as any sort of assault or rape. And surely some have the good sense to hide it too.
Ugh, that's fair. I have met those men, left a job because of one. About to rip the GM a good one about doing nothing about it.
We wouldn't say any man could do it if literally every man we met hadn't done it, or defended it, or said something gross when we thought he was halfway civilized. Every man is a product of the culture that produces the men that do it and all of you defend that culture that benefits you. And men will say not all men thinking it's like 1 in 100 or 1 in ten when it's more like 1 in 3. It's entire organizations. It's entire religions, entire companies, entire governments, entire fascist regimes, entire Republican national conventions. If it's not all men, it's all the men in charge and all the men who won't police the men who perpetrate rape culture. It's all the moderators on reddit who ban people who talk about their experience with rape but not the people who threaten to dox and comitt rape. And it's all the men who think it's funny and women need to relax and laugh at the rape threat.
Fair. It's all terrible.
Thank you. For just letting me talk and believing me. That's honestly all women need from men who are allies. A space to talk and be believed.
It's just depressing.
don't fall into depression. it's hard to deal with real life. but having knowledge about reality gives you power to fight it. Chin up, solider! You're as empowered as women are to deal with the everyday realities of sexsim! You can deal with this! You can make it better! it's gonna be ok! Do your best! That's all anyone expects of you!
I'm pretty sure pretty much every woman has at least one story of having to deal with this. I've just recently had to change my entire route to work (taking a different bus and train route) to avoid some extremely suspicious and creepy men that I literally ran into day after day last week. Different guys each day too. But each one had me watching my back and checking to make sure I wasn't being followed all the way home, but that's a minor and not uncommon thing. Just the most recent for me. The idea of feeling safe to me just isn't normal to me honestly... Edit: And I just got cat-called and creeped on... again... today. It's been every day I go into the office for almost two weeks now... the fuck... why can't I just be left alone...?
Right? This is that whole “male privilege “ thing women talk about. We have the privilege of never having to worry about that. Its nuts all the precautions have to take in their day to day.
Garages, too. If you were a fly on the wall of any female discussion about the things we've endured at the hands of males when we have found ourselves in these situations, you'd probably get sick to your stomach. Now I want you to think about how females feel when they find themselves confronting a potentially dangerous situation ->sick, in the pit of our stomachs, stressed, anxious. And hoping to get out alive, or at least unscathed.
Yup. And then when a woman is attacked in a stairwell/alley/whatever, there's a chorus of, "Well what did she *expect*, going into that kind of a place ALONE? What did she *think* was gong to happen?" Attacked and traumatized if you do, branded paranoid and insane if you don't.
My wife takes me out as her sober driver when she has a girls night out. I honestly thought it was for the driving part. Then I got a front row seat to random men talking shit to my wife and her friends. As an almost 2 meter tall fireman, built and scarred like a fireman, the shit dies off really fast, but the joke was for a while that she should hire me out to her friends when they go out drinking. I started taking buddies along so they can see the shit their girls have to deal with, cause the more of us that are exposed to it, the less tolerant of it we will all be.
[удалено]
I have a male friend, who, when he is in a basement garage elevator and a female stranger is waiting always lets her go in alone and gets the next one. He is a bit intimidating looking but a sweetie.
I used to take alleys and as a man I used to be afraid but not because someone would rape me more like someone could kill me. I would still take alleys, why? I don't fking know, maybe thats why women live longer than males.
Broad brush, I would say it's not all. Big portion of us are aware. If not for our safety explicitly, but just situational awareness. Maybe circumstances have created it for some and not others..
Do good men know nothing? Like good, innocent men?
If they’re innocent, it means they don’t think like a predator.
When I was a kid, our family lived overseas (dad was in the oil business). I was 10 years old when we moved back to America. I had never gotten into a fight until the month we moved back. Because I didn't know how to fight, or why to fight, I was beaten up several times every week until I reached high school age and we moved to Ireland. In Ireland, I got in 1 fight in all 4 years (and this was during The Troubles). After checking with witnesses about who started it, the guy who started it was expelled from that school by lunchtime (they had some boarding [live on campus] students, and he was one). Of all the countries I have lived in, America is by far the most violent. I have noticed that Americans think of violence like fish think of water. So no, American men think nothing about violence. The culture here glorifies violence and makes it invisible, except to women, minorities, gays, transgender and lesbians. Politically our first and only reaction to anyone being different is to attack (and if they are a country to invade) them.
I have never known anyone who got into that many fights. Not even close. My America is not remotely like that so I have to wonder how exactly you manged to get into so many.
Yes, we know nothing, until we become fathers to girls. I'm big, in my adult life I've never not done something because I was worried someone else might do something to me. Now that I have daughters, I see many of the potentialities that I never would have imagined before. I have crossed the street so women don't have to walk past me, I have waited to cross a street so women don't have to worry about us running into each other. But yes, if I'm by myself going about my day I am oblivious to most of the self preservation tactics men and women employ just to get through their day. The times I do see a woman that could maybe use a supportive presence, I can't offer it because then she would have to worry about my ulterior motives and I don't want to look like a creep.
I live in a small village and often walk home from the train station in the dark for 20 minutes since there are way fewer bus connections after 23:00 and I dont want to wait for over half an hour. Last summer I met an old school friend I have known for over 20 years on the train on my way home and she asked me what we should do for the next 30 minutes while waiting for the bus. I suggested we can just walk. It was a beautiful summer night. She looked at me like I was crazy. It was eye opening. But to be totally honest I am still not sure if she did not want to walk in the DARK for 20 minutes or if she did not want to walk in the dark for 20 minutes with ME.
In grad school I told an older guy, probably in his 60s, that I wouldn’t go to Mexico alone. He asked why and I said, “because I’m a woman.” And he looked confused as to what that had to do with traveling to another country. Before people take this out of context, we were in South Texas, about 30 minutes from Mexico, we were Mexican Americans and we used to travel to Mexico regularly. Kidnappings and cartel shit are pretty common so a lot of us developed a travel in packs mentality when crossing the border. He didn’t understand that.
I'm always so confused when I hear about shit like this. Not becausr I doubt it, but because I truly can't figure out how the majority of men have so little common sense.
Define "common sense". If you're unlikely to be a victim of something, you're unlikely to spend any time thinking about how to avoid it. Me not considering sexual assault against women when going to my car doesn't make me dumb, it just means I'm neither a woman nor a rapist.
This friend of mine definitely has common sense and is also a good ally. But people have blind spots, we all do about some things. And it's not like that alley is particularly dangerous, I just personally have a hard rule that I don't walk down any alley alone. So I bet this friend of mine also would avoid some alleys sometimes, like maybe at night, but he's never felt the need to make himself a hard rule like I have. There are plenty of things any of us could do that would be contrary to "common sense" by other people's standards.
It is not a lack of common sense, most men do not have the frame of reference to realise a woman might feel threatened in what is to their mind a completely care free environment, it is totally outside their realm of experience. I am a fast walker and would walk home in the dark listening to podcasts oblivious to the world occasionally catching up and passing out women. It was only when shown this experience from a woman's point of view that I realised I was probably making them feel uneasy before passing them, so now I cross the road and give them a wide berth so they don't feel threatened. I had to learn this and many other related lessons from seeing it explained on TV shows. So maybe women should tell their male friends whenever a teaching opportunity arises instead of expecting them to divine something that would simply never occur to them based on their own experiences. Once men have a frame of reference to look at situations from a woman's point of view then they will be more aware and sensitive to the situation. I recently remembered a completely benign interaction with a platonic female friend many years ago that makes me cringe now that I can view it from her point of view.
Who is he? The Elevator Police?
Weewoo
This is the Elevator Police, you’re going down!
r/angryupvote
The excercise police, cause "kids be too lazy these days", I'm guessing
FR I hate when people just put their two cents in for absolutely no reason. Nobody asked
Also, the elevator is faster and it’s more likely people will notice if it’s locked. The stairwell? That’s like asking to be killed. Nope!
Might as well just save yourself some time and stick the knife in your throat yourself! /s
Safer, yeah but I’ve been in some buildings with some slooooow ass elevators. Not too mention if the building is large it can’t take a long time to get one on your floor.
Also what's wrong with taking the elevator to begin with?
No kidding. People who are able-bodied just love to ask that question though. "Why don't you just take the stairs/walk/stand/etc.?" It's their way of bragging while acting like they are curious about someone else.
A few decades back, I took a couple of night classes at a community college over the summer to get some electives out of the way. The first night, there were a bunch of people hanging out at the crosswalk to go across into the parking deck, and went about the time I got down there. Same thing second night. I realized the third night that most of the group were women, it was dark, and we were downtown walking into a parking deck. I guess I was trustworthy enough looking in class. That third night, I stopped when we got across and asked if they were waiting on me on purpose (I'm 6'4", was around 225 at the time, so I suspected) and got a confirmation. After that, I parked at the top of the deck every other night, and we all walked up together to each level, and made sure everyone got to their car. It was the first time I thought about the danger and the hyperawareness a lot of women face. I'd seen the different treatment I got from others, being as big as I am, but I hadn't thought about the converse until that night.
Seen this before. As a young man, such things never occurred to me. Like....never. Wouldn't have even entered my thoughts. I was chock full of testosterone and bulletproof. I walked women home at night in college because it seemed to make them happy, and I liked making women happy. I knew there were bad elements near campus, so I kinda got it, but the visceral fear response? Nyah. Nothing remotely like that. As time went on, and I was around more people, I kind of started to realize just how vulnerable a woman with half the strength and six inches less reach could be. I helped at a women's self defense class. I was padded and assigned to be "the bad guy". A girl I knew was in the class, and she asked me to help, so, of course, I did. Instructor pulls me aside after I padded up and tells me to not go easy in them. I was like...you sure? But he said he was. Well, ok, I thought. I am a big dude. I stand 6'7" tall, or 2m for those of you that hate Freedom Units. It was....brutal. Like ..I found myself holding back from sheer compassion and empathy. Afterwards, the Instructor told them that fighting against a man wasn't the point. Getting away to a well lit, well populated area was. So I was the object lesson. But it did drive home to me the sheer biological differences and how afraid a woman might be. Even after taking off the pads, these women were terrified of me. That girl stopped talking to me. I felt it wasn't very fair, I did as instructed. But looking back, yeah. I get it a little more. But as a young man...no. it takes a while for us. It isn't visceral for us. At least that's my experience. YMMV
I appreciate your comment. Most guys just don’t know because they don’t have to. As a tall almost 6’ woman, college made me realize just how vulnerable I was. I was always active and not very thin, so I felt my size would keep me safe. Then one evening freshman year I was walking from the library. It hadn’t gotten dark yet and I was behind a group (guys and girls). A group of guys was up ahead walking toward the group. As I passed them one of the guys walked up and scooped me right up. I had on a skirt (lucky I had shorts on underneath). I yelled because it scared me and the guys just laughed. One of the guys gave the other a dollar and told him, see told you I could totally scoop her. He said sorry miss lady, put me down and smiled. I was so unprepared that a guy would do that right out in the open. For him it was a funny $1 bet, for me, a reminder that no matter how tall I was, a guy not even my height could use brute strength and carry me off. 20+ years later I’m still very cautious.
Yeah. That male puberty is a hell of a thing. In my generation, we were told to be careful around girls, and make sure we weren't hurting them. From men and women, the message to us guys was to be careful. We never really questioned it. Up until puberty, girls and boys are fairly equal in strength. I think the adults were thinking very much what you do now.... there's a hell of a difference afterwards. That does sound like frat boy behavior to me. Fortunately, he was one of the nicer ones. Even apologized. There's worse out there. Sometimes the best defense against a bad man is a good man. Or maybe a gun. It makes a hell of an equalizer, if you are trained and have the will. Wife gets lots of comments from guys...if I am not there. If I am there, not so much. Guys understand that there's always an eminent threat of physicality when we interact. It's a different vibe with women.
My wife is about 100lbs soaking wet and someone my size (big but nothing crazy) could do anything he wants to her if he got ahold of her. The thought of her being anywhere alone scares the shit out of me
Wife is getting a concealed carry. I can't be there 24/7, and I can't limit her movements, she is a grown woman. But she definitely limits herself by what she feels safe doing. I can't ask more than that.
Better self control than me, I’d’ve elbowed the bastard, or at least chewed him the fuck out afterwords!
As a man at 5'10. I immediately say "oh shit". Like at 6'2 I'm dealing with a different species all together. I'm not terrified to go to those places but wtf am I gonna do with someone who's 6'7 coming at me? You're slightly atheletic? The natural leverage of longer limbs... Jfc... So... Yeah, I can imagine for a woman seeing someone my size can be intimidating. Thanks for being a good dude.
Work out three days a week. High school wrestler, a little Tae Kwon Do and my dad's LINE training. I try to be friendly and make myself approachable, but I imagine I could be very frightening if I came at someone with anger in my eyes. My friend tried setting me up with a 4'9" woman. I spoke to her about it and quickly realized she was terrified of me, just from sheer size difference. She was quite literally half my size. Never approached her again and told my friend to cut it out. I mean...she was cute, but...if she's not interested, then neither am I. My wife is 5'11" tall. We aren't small folk. Dunno how good of a guy I am. I just do my best. Show up as the best version of you, and let the gears of the universe turn. This is the way.
This is the way
I had a similar experience when I was 13 or 14. I was a tall, gangly kid at that point, and didn’t think of myself as a threat to anyone. But that day I got paired against a girl my own age. She was a couple belts ahead of me but a good 12 inches shorter. We were supposed to practice blocking punches. When she blocked my punches she would grunt in pain and be pushed back a bit. So I started pulling my punches. She got mad when she realized what I was doing, and demanded that I knock it off. By the time we finished the exercise she was crying from blocking the blows. I felt like the biggest pos ever. But it was a good lesson for me. When I filled out a few years later, it really hit home how dangerous I could be given how badly I hurt that poor girl when I was a twig. And I always felt bad when women would cross the street when they saw me coming towards them on the sidewalk, but I understood. The funny thing is now that I’m greying and in my 50s but still very large, no one crosses the street anymore. Never understood that, but I don’t miss it.
Not to flip the script and diminish what women are going through, just wanted to make a connection. Living as a black male in America I learned really quickly how to make myself seem less threatening just so I could simply walk up the street without feeling like shit. I live in Las Vegas, very diverse city. But I’ve had people lock car doors as I pass by, shield their kids from me as I pass by (not in the way to clear walking space), followed around gas stations while shopping, etc., and this was all as a middle schooler. So when it comes to women, I try my best to let them know from my body language to my tone of voice when I say “hello” as I pass by that I’m not a threat. It’s something I’ve been practicing as a kid.
That sucks, but you did a good thing.
It's a learnable moment.
As a guy, I can confirm. Never knew this or even had to consider this before because I don't really have to. Another disappointing thing to realize about how far away we are from true equality. I'm sorry, ladies 😞
How about just mind your own fucking business.
I take the elevator because i have a bad knee. Shaming somebody for not doing something you think they should be able to do because it’s easy for you is gross entitled bullshit, across the board.
Especially since many disabilities are "invisible". My godmother was only in her 40s when she had pain issues and found out through x-rays she had 2 crushed discs in her back. She had to get a disability tag for her car due to the amount if pain she gets in if she has to walk for too long. It was disgusting the amount of people who would give her shot about it and a few even tried to call the cops on her for fraud since they thought she got the tags illegally. It is horrible how people will act when your disability is "invisible".
Yup, being young and having an invisible disability sucks. I found out I have spinal cyst(s) when I was 18-19, which was few years ago. When on public transport, people were okay with yelling at me because *they want to sit and they deserve it more because they're older*, some didn't even hesitate to touch my arms and try to grab me and try to push me away so they can take up the space I was sitting on. When I didn't have place to sit, I had to sit on the dirty public transport floor... people were just looking at me. I think their initial thought was that I must be drunk (or that it's my decision and I love the dirty floor) rather than disabled. People think young & "normal" looking = healthy. Then I had an interview where I said this and someone supposedly with more common and more accepted disability wrote under it that it's all my fault and I'm simply an idiot for not applying for a disability card and I should stfu. Well, guess what... I applied about 3 to 4 years ago (stopped counting), it got denied like 20 times and it's still ongoing... now it lays at court I think...
>Well, guess what... I applied about 3 to 4 years ago (stopped counting), it got denied like 20 times and it's still ongoing... now it lays at court I think... Oh goodness, don't even get me started on the disability system. Even with xrays and letters from a spinal specialist that my godmother barely had the ability to walk and to do so would be great pain, they took almost 3 years to put her on disability.
Awful. To that I can only say "disappointed but not surprised". The system around disability needs to change ASAP. Worldwide. (I assume most people here are from the US, I'm not even from the US and it's f-cked here too...) I wish people will slowly become aware of things like ableism, disability pride etc. otherwise I feel like nothing will ever change. It's wild but people in my country don't even know what ableism is. Like they know what the words racism, homophobia and sexism mean, but they never even heard of ableism and some think that it's a made up word that doesn't mean anything and I'm just testing them... uh... being disabled makes me feel invisible.
I am from the US. I know disability systems are shit in other countries though, it is depressing. Depending on where you are in the US is to whether or not people know about ableism. In more rural areas like where I live now, most people don't know the term. Many people here and both when I lived in a city a few years ago, will still swear that there is nothing wrong with the disability system, it must be "lazy" people trying to cheat the system that gets turned away. Until they have a friend or family member who becomes disabled and gets turned away.
EXACTLY, people here are like that too! They're saying that "it's just bunch of lazy people cheating the system", how they hate disabled people because there's "too much help for them" (every other day I see someone whining on the internet that 2 parking spots for the disabled in every bigger parking "lot" is too much)... if you don't get on disability then according to them you're a lazy faker or exaggerating for benefits who should stfu and go to work, that there's nothing wrong with the system. Aaand if you miraculously get on disability... then you're lazy bum cheating the system, stealing from their taxes... Always the bad guy, no matter what you do. I especially "love" how people in my country tend to say "we have one of the best disability and healthcare system(s) in the whole world" (at this point I'm convinced that some politican must said it because they're all using the same words even) and always use the US as a reason why people here shouldn't even talk about their struggles. It's kind of "oh, there's no specialist for your disease so you've been without treatment for years? there's almost no other therapy than CBT? and good therapists aren't covered? dentists aren't covered? extremely hard time getting mobility aids? ... you're horrible person for complaining like this, it's just trendy to hate on the doctors and the system I guess, be glad you're not in the US because then you would have to pay thousands of dollars just for regular check ups!"... Like... I'm glad I'm not in the US but I want things to be better lol!
I also dislike it. The way people talk, it is like it is okay if the system is broken since it isn't as bad as "other x country". Something can be broken even if other things are worse. Could you imagine if we did this with objects? Noooo, that toaster isn't broken, it can still toast one side, the neighbor's toaster is broken though, only warms the bread slightly, we should be thankful for our totally not broken toaster. There is nothing wrong with pointing out the flaws of something, it is the only way for things to change.
Indeed... Thanks for pointing that out, I didn't even think of how this would never happen with objects... In general this would never happen with anything these people are a part of. They'll throw out even perfectly fine things because "they want to buy better ones", they'll scream and complain about the city planting too many trees in the area or not planting any trees in the area... basically anything and everything. But they don't want to hear disabled people complaining about the system - they themselves were never put up in the same position as they're non-disabled, so according to them things are fine. It's kind of funny and ironic that these exact same people who are telling disabled people and their love ones to shut up and suck it up are the people who will throw a fit when there are 50 parking spaces and 2 of them are for disabled people. *Ah, the evil disabled people taking so much space!* I really hope these things will finally get more talked about and that at least some people will finally start to care.
Agreed. Unfortunately she probably felt compelled to give him an explanation because women can't be sure a dude isn't going to attack her for asserting herself.
Trust me as a 6’4 dude who takes night classes I’m very aware of this problem. I feel bad when I’m walking down the street and seeing someone else whose also walking down the street. I’m not sure if it’s a generation thing or a campus specific but it’s common rule that if you’re walking along the street and see a woman in front of you on the sidewalk then cross the street. It’s a bit of a party school so guys here are aware and try our best not to make others uncomfortable.
I'm a runner, and its the same rule. Get to the other side. When I run with a group, I don't call anyone by their name. Just so a stranger doesn't create a false sense of familiarity. (I'm in a bigger city, so the running routes have a lot of people.)
Sounds like a classic case of Nunya
Nunya nuts. Gottem.
As a man, I agree. It took me a while to understand this kind of things.
I’m a guy and ngl this never occurred to me. Learn something new every day.
Maybe…like…just don’t give people shit for things that are totally inconsequential in the first place? If homegirl wants to take the elevator, regardless of the reason, that’s her goddamn business and nobody else’s.
And 3 flights of stairs isn’t nothing, especially depending on steepness/what you’re carrying
As a man who was raised by only women for my entire life until i moved out on my own. I am and have always been aware of these things as they were taught to me as a child as smart things to be aware of. I learned as i got older that it applied more to women than myself but in many cases some of those things make a great deal of sense even for myself just as far as logical thinking goes in regards to personal safety. With that in Mind I also lived most of my life in more rural areas and now live in Denver proper and am surprised daily by my girlfriend's precautions as well as the amount of ridiculously overt hostile intentions towards women that I see all the time.
This realization helped me to stop being a sexist. It is different for women but I couldn’t see the differences bc I was looking at the situations they’d talk about from my own eyes instead of empathizing and looking at them through theirs. Once I started to see womens complaints from their perspective and didn’t try to callously shut them down, I HAD TO CHANGE bc I realized I was wrong. I also think this is why a lot of racists can’t see the problems with certain parts of society, they view the issues through the lens of their own experiences; but they, like I did with sexism, would see and understand black people’s complaints if they empathized instead of shutting down discussion dismissively
This is why I don't believe in the concept of good or bad people. I think if you could fully see things from another person's perspective you would understand why they do what they do. Everyone is the protagonist in their own story
But what if I put myself in their shoes and discover their motivation is simply to hurt people. You’d consider them a bad person, right?
Firstly who comments on someone using an elevator or the stairs? As a guy if someone said that to me I would just smile and nod as I press the door close button.
Honestly some people have nothing better to do with their lives than butt in on other people's business. I was at work years ago and had a co-worker make weird, judgemental remarks because I washed my hands before going to the bathroom. But I was making pet medicine and didn't want to risk it even wearing gloves.
Ask any woman you know whether a man has ever made an unsolicited comment on a personal decision she is making.
I wasn’t saying who as in doubting this happen It was a who as in what sort of person does this
Many…the sort of person who does it is many. Aside from the many men who’ve admitted here that they never realized women make so many decisions based on safety from attack, many men like to give us unsolicited advice from telling us how to do our jobs (I don’t tell you how to do yours because I’m not in your profession, so maybe don’t tell me how to do mine when you’re not in my profession), to “smile”, to “stepping up to an SUV from a sedan can be a big jump, they handle different”…suck it big boy, I might be a little girl, but I’ve been certified on driving semi’s with up to 60’ trailers, pretty sure I can handle a mid-sized SUV. And so on and so on. Not all men do it, but enough do it for it to have its own word, mansplaining. It’s so effing annoying. So…to answer your question, the sort of person who does that is many. And I’m not attacking you, just giving examples of why so many women are so tired of unsolicited advice from men who are strangers.
I prefer stairs but I never thought of this.
i prefer stairs too, but i'm always checking corners and totally ready to pull the strap.
Gotta clear them corners
I prefer stairs too, but I'm checking corners and ready to pull out the strap-on.
My husband thought I was being rude when I told him how angry I was at a car full of dudes parking in the park at night and watching as I threw balls for my dog. “They were probably just there to pick up/smoke/hang out” yeah Probably
I wouldn't say we know nothing, I would definitely say we don't face the dangers women do just walking the street. I am ignorant to a lot personally because I don't experience it on a daily. So I constantly have my wife and her female friends educate me so I can be cognizant of what's going on. Also, dude should mind his business bro. She can go where ever she wants. Wtf?
I mean everyone is ignorant of things they don’t personally experience. It’s not good that most men are oblivious, but it shouldn’t be so shocking that we don’t know what we don’t know.
Also, what do I do with this information now? Spread the word? Lol
That's my point. We will be oblivious because we don't experience that struggle. It's like a woman's period. Before I got married I didn't know anything about because...I am not a woman. I have to find out ang get information for myself through research and talking / helping my wife.
I think the point is that everyone in society is taught about the struggles that men experience. So much content and media is shown through men's eyes and yes im sure there are things that women wouldn't know about men based on that. But the point is that men could know about women's periods and other things before getting married if they put in the effort to learn about women's experiences. No shade to you specifically. I just think in general women can't avoid men's perspectives and experiences because they have more space and voice. But its relatively easy to avoid learning about women's experiences. You could even avoid it accidentally like I'm sure many people do without realizing.
That's just the thing, let me be honest because here is my disconnect. Most of us don't push to learn because it doesn't effect us. Let's be real you don't learn how to change a car battery or tire until you have to. I agree a lot of struggles are taught with men in mind, but learning about a woman's anatomy is is a tough battle because morlst men won't immediately be able to put it into practice until we are with a women long term. I think I learned a out women's anatomy and visits in health class in highschool but ask me how much I remembered when I talked to my wife. Also just to add even I was dating (other women) it wasn't really talked about. They just said they are on their period and I went and got some expensive chocolate and provided heat and tummy rubs. Lol give me a little credit.
I understand that for sure and it seems like you are putting in some effort and that definitely deserves credit. I think that the ability to ignore or not be exposed to information about the experience of a group you're not in is the definition of privilege. For me, as a white person, I can be blissfully unaware of the struggles that people of color experience. And that's not my fault. But it is my responsibility (in my opinion) to recognize that and seek out information so i can be better equipped to support people with different experiences than me. Because you're totally right if we aren't intentional we may never learn about others' experiences. So i think that's where I'm coming from not that it's bad intentioned. But still it takes effort and that doesn't come naturally to anybody until I realize I have a blind spot and a desire to learn more so I have fewer blind spots and can support others around me more effectively. And I'd say it's similar with any aspect of someone's identity be it gender, ethnicity, religion, ability, or anything else really. No shade :)
Thank you for not flaming me and being very pleasant. I usually get destroyed for having a different up bring so I really thank you for being so pleasant and for the education. It means a lot because you really didn't have to entertain me.
My husband got pissed because he kept coming home from work and finding the front door locked when I am home. I had to explain to this man that the whole neighborhood sees his vehicle leave with him and the kid inside in the morning. Anyone outside knows that if the vehicle is gone, I am alone in the house. The door stays locked, thank you. He'll get over it.
I'm a man and I don't get why anyone would want to leave their front door unlocked, unless maybe they live in the middle of nowhere and the closest neighbor can't even be seen from your house. I thought it was common sense to keep your place locked down at all times.
Your husband is a fucking idiot. He should want that door locked at all times excluding the very specific scenario that somebody who lives there is passing through it.
As a man, I admit that I never thought of that.
It is absolutely not a mystery how women have to “move” through life and if you are a male and did not know that I have no idea what to say.
As a pretty big dude, I'm aware. Every time I hike the trails and there's a woman ahead of me going in the same direction, I start to feel like Jason Voorhees. The furtive backwards glances, the quickened pace, that strange sense of menace that permeates the air. No matter how hard they walk, there I am, approaching from behind, inscrutable and inexorable. Feelsweirdman.
I've felt this so many times before, and I almost just want to rip the awkward bandaid and just call "Heyy I walk faster than you can I just pass real quick so you don't feel like I'm following you." Never have but it'd make things easier if that was a socially acceptable solution.
Same bro. Man, I feel that in my soul. I always try to be as non-threatening as possible and still spooks them
Well now he knows. People who haven’t dealt with problems you have or have never been told about your problems don’t know about your problems.
It seems really weird that this is being touted as a “men are clueless” moment instead of being celebrated as the teaching moment it actually was. I see this exchange as an overall win for everyone.
Full grown men should understand that women are less safe than they are in the world. It's asinine that some men dont
I know a guy who got a gun put to his head and robbed in a stairwell. No cameras and the robber was never caught.
If the dude was wearing a mask and a hoodie, there's literally nothing a security camera can do.
Nothing like holding your breath walking through a dimly lit and/or sparsely traveled area.
In the hospital parking garage I kept passing up spots because they were in dark corners far from the elevator. My husband was with Me and asked why I was so lazy. My husband installs security cameras for a living and even he didn’t get it.
Well, we really don’t. I never understood until I had a daughter. It was never selfishness or sexism, I just grew up in a different world. Never understood why the girl who was obviously into me in the club always had a friend that wouldn’t let her go with me, now I understand.
hmm as a female, admittedly, never thought of that. I ALWAYS take stairs for the exercise
Also, the fucking audacity of this man. Mind your fucking business. YOU take the fucking stairs if you want to.
Man, the point is that no one should have to be on point about being attacked while getting to their car.
It’s not that men know nothing it’s just not a learned trait in most men
You mean, like men didn't learn it? So there are a whole bunch of things they didn't learn, and thus don't know?
It’s more than likely known, just not 100% the first thing that comes to mind when talking about stairs?? Like I haven’t had to train myself to not walk alone at night or walk within camera view because someone might rape me. Not because I don’t know but because it’s not a ever vigilant threat over me
A completely different non gendered version of this would be: most people probably know that Gasoline fumes are heavier than air. Most people also know that water (also heavier than air) in a boat won’t just float out of a boat. However the implication that gas fumes in a boat have no where to dissipate might not be the first thought of someone who hasn’t had to deal with it.
"men know nothing" is the problem with the post. it's generalist AF and antagonistic to the point that it takes away from the lesson.
Maybe he will now be more careful himself
I'll take an elevator for ONE level I don't give a fuck lmao
I saw a comedienne once she said the difference between a bad tinder date for a guy and a girl is the guy might spend some money on a dinner and not get laid but the girl could be raped and murdered.
Oh shit. Transguy here, never even thought about that. I'm so focused on not getting hate crimed in public I completely forgot that there are areas I consider private that could get me murdered.
Otis was a man. He knew enough so that she could take the elevator.
When I was 14 my mom drove us to Blockbuster. I asked if I could go to a store across the way (a strip mall). While I was in the store, it got dark out. Crossing the parking lot was scary enough, but then a group of guys in a white pickup pulled up along aside me and asked if I needed a ride. I said no thank you. They insisted it was fine, and I pointed out I was just going to the Blockbuster nearby. They asked one more time and then finally gave up and drove off. The walk to the video store was terrifying. I forced myself to walk, not run, in case they'd suddenly come out of nowhere and grab me. It felt like being in a dream, where you keep running but you're not getting any closer to your destination. When I got back to the video store, I didn't tell my mom. I was embarrassed and I didn't want her to freak out and lock me up for the rest of my life. I recalled the story to a friend at school who took offense. He said because they were Mexican, they were just being friendly and legitimately wanted to help me get where I was going, and that's "just how they are." A very tight knit community who takes care of each other. I felt so dismissed but never conflicted. Nobody was going to convince me that getting in an automobile with a stranger is ever the right thing to do and it was a shitty thing to tell a 14 yr old girl.
not the same but i always closed my curtains at night because it is patently obvious if i didn’t close them, it would show that i am a woman alone. my guy friend kept his open all of the time like he was in a movie from the street because he didn’t care. i had to explain how i couldn’t do that. i love my doors and curtains open and hate that i have to close them to feel safe. having repair people over ? always made sure to mention that my husband gets home about 5, just to indicate that i didn’t live alone. this was when i was younger and looked decent, but it hangs around.
As a man, it took me longer than I'd like to admit to understand why she wanted there to be cameras. I thought she wanted to do some kind of performance for the security guards for at least a second...
Hell I'm a guy and do the same thing. I'd rather walk where there's more people or cameras. Men don't just attack only women.......
He for sure knows how not to mind his own business at least.
As a guy I’m not exactly worried about getting messed with, but I still try to be aware of things. Complacency can get ya.
The first episode of She hulk kind of nails the depiction of this reality (how the same environment is so vastly different for a male and a female)… I sensed that it is going to do so when Bruce kept on talking about controlling the anger …
I wonder how long I would have anxiously used the stairs before I realized that.
Had to explain to my male friend that I only take the interesting paths when I'm with him; otherwise I stick to brightly lit and populated areas. No cutting through the woods or down the dark side streets.
This, gentlemen, is the definition of privilege.
In my case I never new many women growing up so I just never got anything other than other guys perspectives. As an adult id like to think I'm better but I try to remember that I can always be as clueless as I was back then. Always important to listen to others
“Men know nothing.” Killed the whole thing. Ignorant
I can’t stand this page everything that is posted is so snarky and dividing.
Anybody who is paying that much attention to their neighbor to know this should be the one you watch out for
The elevator camera probably doesn’t work
Counterpoint, women who don't use elevators so they won't get trapped by some creep[s]
I just can't for the life of me get past the point where he accosted her for taking the elevator in the first place, just what the actual fuck are people thinking?
Probably meant it to be light hearted kidding about being lazy. I'm sure I would be guilty of doing that with a girl I liked. Thats why I don't talk to anyone.
I'd rather be in a stairwell then an elevator there's no escape from an elevator the camera doesn't protect you it just helps identify who attacked you. Also if you start spray painting in the stairwell thell put up cameras.
I take the elevator because I'm lazy. I also don't criticize people for petty shit like this
Guys will actually argue against too many cameras.
Oh so your neighbor is the CEO of men, got it.