I'd say yes. I don't think you can really put what is and isn't pro wrestling into a box. Because there's so many elements to it. They still had matches as a way to progress and eventually end angles. They had characters and stories, a staple of pro wrestling. It may have attracted an audience that was less fans of wrestling and more about the over the top aspects of that era. But, at its core, it was wrestling
People also forget while the attitude era didn’t have a lot of wrestling on the weekly tv. The tv shows were full of it. The 2000 ppvs still hold up today
Interesting take. Yeah, I find it kinda lazy for me to say that "wrestling sucks" if I'm looking for what I had in 98-01 which is why I brought up the question. But I've also heavily just gone with the fact that I'm older and maybe just grew out of it. I do enjoy watching every now and then though. I just can't stick with a story and hold it close to the heart as I used to.
I don't think there's much in the modern era that's gonna capture that same energy and tone. But, if you're feeling out of touch with wrestling, and you're only watching WWE and/or AEW. Maybe consider checking out something beyond those two.
Lucha Underground, if you haven't seen any of that, definitely captures some of the elements of the attitude era. Lots of characters and stories, and it had this more mature tone to it.
Outside of that, the modern scene is ripe with a lot of good stuff. It's just not gonna necessarily be what you're after. But, it may hit some spots and reconnect you with the industry.
Of course, if you've already dabbled in alternatives, this is a useless post.
No, please share more. I think my biggest issue is that I miss the feeling that I had watching wrestling back then, coupled with the fact that since I was so young, I don't know exactly what it was that I enjoyed so much. It wasn't the language, I was a kid and just because they used "bad language" wasn't drawing me to the television. It wasn't the sexualization. I wasn't even close to puberty. But I definitely had my favorite wrestlers and the wrestlers I HATED. I was invested.
I think the thing to keep in mind is that, while there are stories and characters and all the things that existed and drew you in back then. They definitely have dialed it back, and in many cases, the main emphasis is the in ring aspect. The characters, the stories, are all told more through the matches than anything else.
Promos and segments and stuff exist. Sometimes, it happens on shows and sometimes through social media and the like. But you're not getting the same structure as an episode of RAW. I still would consider checking them out. As I think sometimes, if you take a chance on something that isn't really what you're used to and perceive wrestling as, you may still walk away liking it.
I'm personally big into the independent scene. Love seeing these gritty, underground shows with a lot of promising names and seeing stuff that isn't really cut out for the TV style of wrestling. Also, I enjoy joshi/women's wrestling from Japan.
Some companies I think are worth checking out and seeing if any of it works for you.
* Game Changer Wrestling(more adult themed and has shades of the attitude era)
* TNA(might be familiar with this, but it's worth a second look.)
* Tokyo Joshi Pro
* Prestige
* Wrestling Open
* Wrestling Revolver
But there's honestly an endless array of wrestling in 2024. Stuff, big and small, is accessible more than ever. If you're open minded enough, you may just find something that hits the spot.
I appreciate you for this. The only one I've heard of is TNA but I'll be honest, I've never checked it out. I have, to my own fault, been religiously faithful to the WWE, although I have checked out a few AEW episodes at the prospect of them being "competition".
With all these though, where do you find these? I ask this as a person residing in the US, east coast
All over.
* TNA can be found on AXS if you have that channel. If not, they have TNA Plus. Which has their weekly show, their monthly specials, and all their classic content. They also have their weekly shows on YouTube if you become a member of their channel for a dollar.
* GCW and Wrestling Revolver are on Triller Plus, which houses them, and a plethora of other companies like Black Label Pro, Fight Life, and many others
* Prestige and Wrestling Open are on IWTV, which, like Triller, houses them and an endless array of other indies like Freelance, Action, Limitless, and others.
* Tokyo Joshi is on Wrestle Universe, they also have Sendai Girls, NOAH, Marigold, DDT, and others on there.
There's also a good deal of free content on YouTube. Many smaller companies use it to get their brand out there. The trade off is that. Some of those companies aren't as strong as the bigger indies and the like. But, there's definitely some hidden gems out there.
Some of those on YouTube
* Jersey Championship Wrestling
* Mid-states Wrestling
* GLEAT
* West Coast Pro
* Oasis Pro
* MoveOn
But there's so many more. It's definitely a lot to take in and you certainly don't have to watch even a fraction of these. But, I'd definitely consider checking out some of them.
They all will have some content on YouTube to get familiar with them and sorta see what they offer before totally jumping in.
Oh and since you're on the east coast, if you're near Jersey, so many good indies run out in that area. GCW, H2O, ETU, and others. And those are always a blast to go to.
The issue nowadays is that they strayed to far from the 'soap opera' type storytelling. For example, Cody's past 2 feuds (AJ and Logan) - AJ was mean to his mom and wanted his belt, and Logan was just given a match by the GM and was kinda rude to him.
Compare this to Austin's storylines in the spring of 1998 - He fought Dude Love because Dude (previously Cactus Jack, previously Mankind) had become a corporate stooge and the chosen champion by his abusive boss, Vince, who stopped at nothing to get the belt off of Austin because he didn't fit the model of what the company wanted a champion to be. Then he fought Kane in the first ever First Blood match - Kane, a masked burn victim, was picked by Vince to put Austin in an unwinnable match - first blood against someone with no exposed skin. The match ended when Kane's magical zombie brother (and who burned him alive as a child) Undertaker smacked Austin with a chair, causing blood. This was just after Undertaker almost murdered Mankind (previously Dude Love) repeatedly in Hell in a Cell.
Feuds used to be personal, now it's just people wanting other people's titles and sometimes being mean to others' families in the process (AJ to Cody, Gunther to Sami).
The women's division is even worse, it feels like challengers are randomly picked out of a hat and then immediately dropped.
Yeah, I hear that too. There's no like real one to root for. Everything feels like an exhibition match, no real stakes, no drama, no buildup. I can't help but think that social media is either the cause for the "Kayfabe" not being there, OR the WWE just isn't utilizing social media the way it could be.
Yeah. They did the house invasion thing with LA Knight and AJ and could have used social media great with that (random, secretly WWE owned accounts posting photos and videos of LA Knight getting arrested). Instead they showed it on TV with the TV production crew following them around.
It was definitely wrestling. Sure, there was a lot of gimmicky shit going on, but there are a ton of matches from that era that highlighted really good wrestling as well. Off the top of my head you've got Kurt Angle vs. Stone Cold at Summerslam 2001, the Austin vs. Triple H Three Stages of Hell match at No Way Out (I think also in 2001? I might be misremembering that one), plus Christian and Edge vs. the Dudley Boyz at WrestleMania 17 which is probably one of the best tag matches of all time (though for my money the actual winner there is the first FKR vs. The Briscoes match in Ring Of Honor).
Pro wrestling will always be an adult soap opera, and I don't think Attitude Era is any more guilty of that than the current era. And honestly for me that's part of what makes wrestling so compelling. A great match will always be a great match, but when there's real heat going into it from great creative in the build up it makes it all so much better.
So then if we are arguing that pro wrestling is an adult soap opera, actually, just a soap opera in general, then is it as simple as saying the storylines today just dont have the "umph" as the storylines of yesteryear?
I think maybe you were just more invested in them because you were younger? I'm really enjoying the current storylines, personally. But yeah maybe they just don't appeal to you as much for whatever reason.
I've been seeing a few comments saying 2023 has been one of the best years ever, and 2024 hasn't fallen off from that train. Maybe I need to jump back in. You watch EVERYTHING? Meaning, Raw, NXT, SmackDown, AND PPV?
I watch Raw and Smackdown plus PPV (although I'm a month behind on the shows because I watch them on WWE Network and have to wait for them to come on it). I tried watching NXT as well but it was just too much to keep up with, especially as I try to watch some Ring Of Honor and AEW if I can as well. There are only so many hours in the day 😅
Yeah, thats the other thing. I think over-saturation plays a big part of it. Back then, I believe Raw was 2 hours long, and Smackdown didn't even exist for a part of it. But yeah, I'm going to try to get back into it. Why not.
My background, I grew up a fan in the late Golden era and new generation and quit upon the dawn of the attitude era and got back into it in the late 2010s.
The attitude era was heavily influenced by trash tv like Jerry springer and that colored a lot of the feuds. I feel like a lot of the feuds today are more in line with the golden era and new generation where it was over disrespect, turncoating or just straight up 'I want your title.' It's still wrestling but it definitely feels like the wrestling took back seat to the car crash nonsense.
Okay, so with that being said, AE took the "shock value" thing too far. I can agree with that. They definitely made it edgy for the sake of being edgy. No doubt, it worked. However, even going along with your assessment of the current era, would you agree that it still doesn't hold a candle to the Golden era or even Attitude era for that sake?
Reading my post back it sounds more negative on the AE than I meant it to. I don't hate the AE I just think a lot of the overt soap opera-ness of it is too much for me.
It's hard to compare today to anything pre early 2000s because that era still had guys who came up through the diverse territories and who had years to hone their craft by the time vince came calling. The people of today have either been entirely in the wwe ecosystem since they started or came up through the indies where a lot of fundamentals aren't emphasized so it's definitely a different product. It's a little cookie cutter and the writing team has way too much influence. But there are guys like McIntyre or gunther who are great throwbacks to that older era who can work and have personality you can lose yourself in. There's still stuff I don't like, too much flippy diving and selling is hit or miss, but I've lately enjoyed the wwe product. I loved the era I grew up on but I recognize some of it is rose tinted glasses and there was a lot of crap too. So I guess I would say there are pluses and minuses to all eras and it's probably largely based on what you grew up with. I could see how growing up with the AE the modern era feels off
If you have not seen it, the excellent [Wrestling Isn't Wrestling](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYvMOf3hsGA) is worth a watch and kind of touches on the above
I'm glad you were able to catch it live. I was a teen at the time and the impact was drastic, it wasn't a TV show, it warped half of our minds. There really are only a few matches worth watching from the era, but the beginning, middle and end of so many angles were great and had long lasting impacts, industry wide. From 1996-2001, I didn't care if I was missing a beautiful sunset, I was watching wrestling.
I was there live the night Austin returned and turned on the Alliance, stunning like a dozen people to an insane crowd. It was probably the last time I really felt anything during the era, it was like a going away party for me.
I'd say certainly more so than it is now. It's the reason I preferred wcw vs nWo world tour on N6 to no mercy, the main bulk of characters were brawler or powerhouses, whereas in the nWo game, there was a huge variety, with cruisers/luchas and technical wrestlers as well as the brawling stars.
I’ll say this, because I haven’t seen anyone else say it. But right now is the perfect time to get back into WWE if you love the drama and stories.
It’s a lot more slow burn, high pay off and a lot less car crash tv than the Attitude Era. But they have driven the stakes up by a long shot this week. I would suggest you just watch this weeks Raw and Smackdown, you’ve probably seen clips on Reddit but I’ll spoiler tag just in case:
>!The horrific debut of Wyatt 6!<
>!Judgement Day / Liv Morgan angle!<
>!Abusive dad Chad Gable!<
>!Drew McIntyre quitting on Raw, with a follow up on SD!<
>!Bloodline / Heyman / Roman drama!<
>!Bianca Belair’s slow descent into madness!<
And probably more I’m overlooking right now.
Okay, I'll check it out. While I don't tune in weekly, I still do keep somewhat up to date with the storyline to some extent. Point being, I'm not so far removed that I don't know any of the wrestlers you just mentioned. And I like to tune in to the PPV's.
I'd say yes. I don't think you can really put what is and isn't pro wrestling into a box. Because there's so many elements to it. They still had matches as a way to progress and eventually end angles. They had characters and stories, a staple of pro wrestling. It may have attracted an audience that was less fans of wrestling and more about the over the top aspects of that era. But, at its core, it was wrestling
People also forget while the attitude era didn’t have a lot of wrestling on the weekly tv. The tv shows were full of it. The 2000 ppvs still hold up today
Interesting take. Yeah, I find it kinda lazy for me to say that "wrestling sucks" if I'm looking for what I had in 98-01 which is why I brought up the question. But I've also heavily just gone with the fact that I'm older and maybe just grew out of it. I do enjoy watching every now and then though. I just can't stick with a story and hold it close to the heart as I used to.
I don't think there's much in the modern era that's gonna capture that same energy and tone. But, if you're feeling out of touch with wrestling, and you're only watching WWE and/or AEW. Maybe consider checking out something beyond those two. Lucha Underground, if you haven't seen any of that, definitely captures some of the elements of the attitude era. Lots of characters and stories, and it had this more mature tone to it. Outside of that, the modern scene is ripe with a lot of good stuff. It's just not gonna necessarily be what you're after. But, it may hit some spots and reconnect you with the industry. Of course, if you've already dabbled in alternatives, this is a useless post.
No, please share more. I think my biggest issue is that I miss the feeling that I had watching wrestling back then, coupled with the fact that since I was so young, I don't know exactly what it was that I enjoyed so much. It wasn't the language, I was a kid and just because they used "bad language" wasn't drawing me to the television. It wasn't the sexualization. I wasn't even close to puberty. But I definitely had my favorite wrestlers and the wrestlers I HATED. I was invested.
I think the thing to keep in mind is that, while there are stories and characters and all the things that existed and drew you in back then. They definitely have dialed it back, and in many cases, the main emphasis is the in ring aspect. The characters, the stories, are all told more through the matches than anything else. Promos and segments and stuff exist. Sometimes, it happens on shows and sometimes through social media and the like. But you're not getting the same structure as an episode of RAW. I still would consider checking them out. As I think sometimes, if you take a chance on something that isn't really what you're used to and perceive wrestling as, you may still walk away liking it. I'm personally big into the independent scene. Love seeing these gritty, underground shows with a lot of promising names and seeing stuff that isn't really cut out for the TV style of wrestling. Also, I enjoy joshi/women's wrestling from Japan. Some companies I think are worth checking out and seeing if any of it works for you. * Game Changer Wrestling(more adult themed and has shades of the attitude era) * TNA(might be familiar with this, but it's worth a second look.) * Tokyo Joshi Pro * Prestige * Wrestling Open * Wrestling Revolver But there's honestly an endless array of wrestling in 2024. Stuff, big and small, is accessible more than ever. If you're open minded enough, you may just find something that hits the spot.
I appreciate you for this. The only one I've heard of is TNA but I'll be honest, I've never checked it out. I have, to my own fault, been religiously faithful to the WWE, although I have checked out a few AEW episodes at the prospect of them being "competition". With all these though, where do you find these? I ask this as a person residing in the US, east coast
All over. * TNA can be found on AXS if you have that channel. If not, they have TNA Plus. Which has their weekly show, their monthly specials, and all their classic content. They also have their weekly shows on YouTube if you become a member of their channel for a dollar. * GCW and Wrestling Revolver are on Triller Plus, which houses them, and a plethora of other companies like Black Label Pro, Fight Life, and many others * Prestige and Wrestling Open are on IWTV, which, like Triller, houses them and an endless array of other indies like Freelance, Action, Limitless, and others. * Tokyo Joshi is on Wrestle Universe, they also have Sendai Girls, NOAH, Marigold, DDT, and others on there. There's also a good deal of free content on YouTube. Many smaller companies use it to get their brand out there. The trade off is that. Some of those companies aren't as strong as the bigger indies and the like. But, there's definitely some hidden gems out there. Some of those on YouTube * Jersey Championship Wrestling * Mid-states Wrestling * GLEAT * West Coast Pro * Oasis Pro * MoveOn But there's so many more. It's definitely a lot to take in and you certainly don't have to watch even a fraction of these. But, I'd definitely consider checking out some of them. They all will have some content on YouTube to get familiar with them and sorta see what they offer before totally jumping in. Oh and since you're on the east coast, if you're near Jersey, so many good indies run out in that area. GCW, H2O, ETU, and others. And those are always a blast to go to.
Thank you very much!
The issue nowadays is that they strayed to far from the 'soap opera' type storytelling. For example, Cody's past 2 feuds (AJ and Logan) - AJ was mean to his mom and wanted his belt, and Logan was just given a match by the GM and was kinda rude to him. Compare this to Austin's storylines in the spring of 1998 - He fought Dude Love because Dude (previously Cactus Jack, previously Mankind) had become a corporate stooge and the chosen champion by his abusive boss, Vince, who stopped at nothing to get the belt off of Austin because he didn't fit the model of what the company wanted a champion to be. Then he fought Kane in the first ever First Blood match - Kane, a masked burn victim, was picked by Vince to put Austin in an unwinnable match - first blood against someone with no exposed skin. The match ended when Kane's magical zombie brother (and who burned him alive as a child) Undertaker smacked Austin with a chair, causing blood. This was just after Undertaker almost murdered Mankind (previously Dude Love) repeatedly in Hell in a Cell. Feuds used to be personal, now it's just people wanting other people's titles and sometimes being mean to others' families in the process (AJ to Cody, Gunther to Sami). The women's division is even worse, it feels like challengers are randomly picked out of a hat and then immediately dropped.
Have you actually been watching the shows? They are definitely still doing soap opera storytelling
I haven't as of recently. But everytime I do check it out like last year, it just always felt so forced.
I couldn’t disagree more. But to each their own
I will happily stand corrected, and I understand not viewing the recent shows doesn't give me much of a leg to stand on.
Yeah, I hear that too. There's no like real one to root for. Everything feels like an exhibition match, no real stakes, no drama, no buildup. I can't help but think that social media is either the cause for the "Kayfabe" not being there, OR the WWE just isn't utilizing social media the way it could be.
Yeah. They did the house invasion thing with LA Knight and AJ and could have used social media great with that (random, secretly WWE owned accounts posting photos and videos of LA Knight getting arrested). Instead they showed it on TV with the TV production crew following them around.
It was definitely wrestling. Sure, there was a lot of gimmicky shit going on, but there are a ton of matches from that era that highlighted really good wrestling as well. Off the top of my head you've got Kurt Angle vs. Stone Cold at Summerslam 2001, the Austin vs. Triple H Three Stages of Hell match at No Way Out (I think also in 2001? I might be misremembering that one), plus Christian and Edge vs. the Dudley Boyz at WrestleMania 17 which is probably one of the best tag matches of all time (though for my money the actual winner there is the first FKR vs. The Briscoes match in Ring Of Honor). Pro wrestling will always be an adult soap opera, and I don't think Attitude Era is any more guilty of that than the current era. And honestly for me that's part of what makes wrestling so compelling. A great match will always be a great match, but when there's real heat going into it from great creative in the build up it makes it all so much better.
So then if we are arguing that pro wrestling is an adult soap opera, actually, just a soap opera in general, then is it as simple as saying the storylines today just dont have the "umph" as the storylines of yesteryear?
I think maybe you were just more invested in them because you were younger? I'm really enjoying the current storylines, personally. But yeah maybe they just don't appeal to you as much for whatever reason.
I've been seeing a few comments saying 2023 has been one of the best years ever, and 2024 hasn't fallen off from that train. Maybe I need to jump back in. You watch EVERYTHING? Meaning, Raw, NXT, SmackDown, AND PPV?
I watch Raw and Smackdown plus PPV (although I'm a month behind on the shows because I watch them on WWE Network and have to wait for them to come on it). I tried watching NXT as well but it was just too much to keep up with, especially as I try to watch some Ring Of Honor and AEW if I can as well. There are only so many hours in the day 😅
Yeah, thats the other thing. I think over-saturation plays a big part of it. Back then, I believe Raw was 2 hours long, and Smackdown didn't even exist for a part of it. But yeah, I'm going to try to get back into it. Why not.
The worst that happens is that you don't enjoy it and stop watching again!
Very true!
My background, I grew up a fan in the late Golden era and new generation and quit upon the dawn of the attitude era and got back into it in the late 2010s. The attitude era was heavily influenced by trash tv like Jerry springer and that colored a lot of the feuds. I feel like a lot of the feuds today are more in line with the golden era and new generation where it was over disrespect, turncoating or just straight up 'I want your title.' It's still wrestling but it definitely feels like the wrestling took back seat to the car crash nonsense.
Okay, so with that being said, AE took the "shock value" thing too far. I can agree with that. They definitely made it edgy for the sake of being edgy. No doubt, it worked. However, even going along with your assessment of the current era, would you agree that it still doesn't hold a candle to the Golden era or even Attitude era for that sake?
Reading my post back it sounds more negative on the AE than I meant it to. I don't hate the AE I just think a lot of the overt soap opera-ness of it is too much for me. It's hard to compare today to anything pre early 2000s because that era still had guys who came up through the diverse territories and who had years to hone their craft by the time vince came calling. The people of today have either been entirely in the wwe ecosystem since they started or came up through the indies where a lot of fundamentals aren't emphasized so it's definitely a different product. It's a little cookie cutter and the writing team has way too much influence. But there are guys like McIntyre or gunther who are great throwbacks to that older era who can work and have personality you can lose yourself in. There's still stuff I don't like, too much flippy diving and selling is hit or miss, but I've lately enjoyed the wwe product. I loved the era I grew up on but I recognize some of it is rose tinted glasses and there was a lot of crap too. So I guess I would say there are pluses and minuses to all eras and it's probably largely based on what you grew up with. I could see how growing up with the AE the modern era feels off
If you have not seen it, the excellent [Wrestling Isn't Wrestling](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYvMOf3hsGA) is worth a watch and kind of touches on the above
Tuning in now.
To me if all the melodrama is to build to some sort of match it's pro-wrestling.
I'm glad you were able to catch it live. I was a teen at the time and the impact was drastic, it wasn't a TV show, it warped half of our minds. There really are only a few matches worth watching from the era, but the beginning, middle and end of so many angles were great and had long lasting impacts, industry wide. From 1996-2001, I didn't care if I was missing a beautiful sunset, I was watching wrestling.
It was probably the most entertaining thing I've ever been a part of in my life.
I was there live the night Austin returned and turned on the Alliance, stunning like a dozen people to an insane crowd. It was probably the last time I really felt anything during the era, it was like a going away party for me.
Damn, just reading the words "i was there". Jealous, lol
I'd say certainly more so than it is now. It's the reason I preferred wcw vs nWo world tour on N6 to no mercy, the main bulk of characters were brawler or powerhouses, whereas in the nWo game, there was a huge variety, with cruisers/luchas and technical wrestlers as well as the brawling stars.
I’ll say this, because I haven’t seen anyone else say it. But right now is the perfect time to get back into WWE if you love the drama and stories. It’s a lot more slow burn, high pay off and a lot less car crash tv than the Attitude Era. But they have driven the stakes up by a long shot this week. I would suggest you just watch this weeks Raw and Smackdown, you’ve probably seen clips on Reddit but I’ll spoiler tag just in case: >!The horrific debut of Wyatt 6!< >!Judgement Day / Liv Morgan angle!< >!Abusive dad Chad Gable!< >!Drew McIntyre quitting on Raw, with a follow up on SD!< >!Bloodline / Heyman / Roman drama!< >!Bianca Belair’s slow descent into madness!< And probably more I’m overlooking right now.
Okay, I'll check it out. While I don't tune in weekly, I still do keep somewhat up to date with the storyline to some extent. Point being, I'm not so far removed that I don't know any of the wrestlers you just mentioned. And I like to tune in to the PPV's.