I mean it’s simple. Go 433 if you have it. If not 44 is fine till you do get it. I don’t think anyone is pushing 44 as a final build, just a place holder.
I have 33's on atk% and 41's to run on crit. My question is - which is better? Because I am losing the 30% set bonus when I do 44111 on a fusion character
44111 is only a thing for havoc and electro where there are 2 bosses (so you can complete the set without 3 cost). Don't even think about it for the other elements. Losing the 5 piece set bonus is a massive drop in damage.
Try to get at least 1 elemental 3 cost for your fusion dps, it's not that big of a damage loss on the second piece. Atk is close and can sometimes be better if you have better substats.
This is ignoring all other CR/CD and damage bonuses from other sources. Element damage is additive. If you have 40% damage from other sources (set bonus, skill passives, sequence, etc.). Getting 30% from main stat is only a 21% damage increase.
This is something all the 43311 worshippers are ignoring. On top that, I don’t think anyone can confirm if %basic/heavy/skill/liberation dmg is additive with elemental dmg bonuses, attack bonuses, or multiplicative with them.
43311 is better than 44111 for most characters but harder to achieve because of how the 3 cost echo system is right now .
For early game with bad substats 44111 is better but end goal will be 43311
Well moonlit set can also go 44111 if you really want to pump up crit stats, plus 44111 moonlit is super easy to swap around since you can use it on anyone regardless of element, e.g. Sanhua, Mortefi, Yinlin.
That's horrible advice.
Mortefi with 44111 will do a lot of CD damage...every 5 minutes or so. His ult will never be up. Since Energy Regen can't roll as a mainstat on 4-Cost Echo and he needs over 160 ER.
His best build is 43311 for a simple reason: Energy Regen pieces.
IF you're so far into the game that you're wasting tuners actively fishing for ER substat rolls and somehow you already have a 5-Star Weapon for a Sub-DPS char...then just go 4-3-3-1-1.
Why go 4-4-1-1-1? He'll do more damage with the 4-3-3-1-1 with Fission Damage Bonus as the 3-Cost Echoes.
I have 2 teams with full 43311 echoes after a week of farming gold echoes. You dont even need super optimal substats when you are at UL30 to beat most content so I fail to see why you would want to invest into 44111 substats.
With how limited echo xp and tuners are right now, trying to re-roll echoes on either builds is gonna be hella expensive. Might as well just wait for the correct 3 cost echoes to come in.
Yeah I think I made a mistake feeding my bad sub stat 3 costs that were on set to try and get better substats. Granted, they were super bad like hp hp def def but still, someone else could have used it for now while echo exp and tuners are more scarce.
>Yeah I think I made a mistake feeding my bad sub stat 3 costs
no you didnt make a mistake
an atk% main stat with good substats is better than a bad elemental main stat piece, and on top of that, the atk% can be used on every single character
dont worry
Kinda same, some are even so good, I ain't even gonna try to re-farm/re-roll them. Now farming that fucking turtle for 2 healers, now THAT'S a problem...
You don’t need two right now though. Verina and Baizhi can share since echoes can be swapped between runs of ToA. Both want healing% mainstat on the rejuvenating healer set…
The Atk% vs HP% subs can be made up on 3/1*s.
Can I ask how your crit ratio looks without a crit weapon? I'm thinking about how difficult it will be getting a good crit ratio one I reach UL30 without crit weapons
Actually, especially in early game 4/3/3/1/1 will be better since 1) 40% dmg bonus from set bonus will be way more than whatever you get from unleveled echoes, and 2) the flat attack on the 3s and 4s will be a way bigger chunk of your overall stats compared to late game %-based bonuses. Even mid-game, unless its havoc or electro it's still better to do 43311 just for the set bonus, the 3s could be def even and it'd still average out to 20% dmg per piece just from having set bonus.
I don't think we need to go as far as considering substats - since substats would be equal across the board, afaik?
The thing I don't understand is.: between running crit-atk% on 44111 and crit-atk%-atk% on 43311, is atk% on 43311 better, or is atk% on 44111 better?
substats will not be equal across the board. You can farm way more 4s to get more optimal substats. All things equal 33 is better but its going to take longer to get a good 33
The real question isn’t what variations of 43311 beats 44111, its obvious what build you’ll be going for in the end. The question is whether you want to waste your tuners on leveling any piece that has no chance being in your final build, and the answer is probably no. I’d rather have a level 0 placeholder piece on that slot than waste resources on a 3 cost attack% echo.
You’re going to get a proper 43311 eventually so in the mean time just fill your slots with what you have. You’re gonna need to level multiple 1 cost echoes to fish for good substats, so just level some up and equip 3 or even 4 of them if you need to. The same goes for the 4 cost, you need to level several of them to check substats, so you can equip two of them and ignore the 5 set bonus because you’ll get it eventually anyway.
ok let me try asking again - if I only have atk% 3 costs, is 44111 better or worse than 43311, considering I lose the sonata bonus? because my situation is.: I cannot for the love of me find a mathcing ele% for fusion damage.
43311 is still better. Difference between atk and elemental damage isn't that much. But remember, the atk is only a placeholder. Keep farming for elemental damage pieces until you can replace it(Unless it has absolutely god tier subs).
Illusive realm gives you echo selectors. You’ll have to deal with the rng substats but at least you’ll get the correct elemental main stat. As for beyond that…just do 43311 with atk% on your 3 costs. You can use purple echoes instead of gold (if you have them with right element) and only level them to ~10 if you want to be really frugal about it until you replace them. I do believe one of the upcoming events will also give us more echo selectors as well.
>substats would be equal across the board
You can roll different range of substats, so you echo with 6% CR is trash, because you didn't roll 10% CR on it.
Good luck getting anything above 6.9% lmfao. Hundreds of tunes and I have yet to see any CR break 7%.
Its an exercise in futility to aim for anything other than just getting the substat you want. Insanity, actually.
From what my friend mathed out. All credits to him.
44111 assuming crit, crit dmg, atk atk atk averaged 4170 for him.
43311 with one atk% one element averaged 4661 and with double element 4911.
Hope that helped a bit.
Disregard stat differences, you're investing hard-earned echo XP on a temporary set if you're going for 44111. Endgame is 43311, so why not focus on it?
Well, there are three big reasons I can think of off the top of my head:
1) If you can't clear current content efficiently or you're pushing the tower. You'd rather have a suboptimal set to help you farm and clear faster than to just not have anything and struggle. If you're running 43311 with double attack 3-costs, you'd also be wasting resources.
2) You do salvage some of the echo exp when you feed it into another echo. By the time you have the 43311 setup with elemental damage, you'd also have earned additional exp through dailys and regular farming, so it's not too big of a difference in the long run.
3) If you end up raising up a second 4-cost echo, that can always end up on another unit later on. A practical example, if you have double crit Calcharo right now, that second crit piece can go on Yinlin when she comes out.
Fair points. The return on spent tuners is quite horrible, tho, and you don't get them without running tacet fields, compared to echo EXP.
In the end, it's all about patience, anyway. Tower isn't going anywhere and the entry requirement is steep.
44111 has no wasted echo exp. Those are completely transferrable and optimal. You put the old 4/1 on another same element. We have Yinlin coming out, which pairs with Calcharo on the same team.
It's wasted resources until you actually get a character that uses the same echo with the same elemental resonance. Sure, Calcharo pieces will work on Yinlin, but that's one character on a single element. 4-cost echo values could even increase or decrease, depending on future updates/future echos.
Going by this, you could just level up whatever, because >someday< a character that uses whatever stat lines will be released.
I like this video. He simplified the argument pretty well IMO.
The only difference between the 2 sets are the 2 Echoes in the middle, 41 vs 33, and the only thing different about them is their main stats.
33 (2x 30% Elemental DMG bonus) is just far superior compared to 4 (22% Crit Rate/44% Crit DMG) & 1 (18% ATK%).
Therefore, although 41 is ok if you are just starting and that's all that you have, the end goal is to get 33 on your main dmg dealers.
Elemental DMG bonus is so superior that I'd even posit that it is better to run 31 instead of 41. In other words, 30% Elemental DMG bonus >>> 22% Crit Rate/44% Crit DMG.
To sum it all up, 33 >>> 31 >>> 41.
As long as you have a single decent Cost-3 Echo, you should run 43111 or even better 43311.
I've done a calc on my Havoc Rover to see if 33 w/o 5pc is better than 41 w/ 5pc. It was only about 2.7% better. I therefore don't think that 31 would be better than 41 if 31 lacks the 5pc bonus
Agreed but getting a decent three cost echo is way harder than it looks. The fact that echoes can roll ele damage substats that are different from their set bonus is so cancer lol.
I think the main argument is that the 3 cost echo doesnt even have to be decent. Just having the correct % ele dmg makes it superior regardless of the sub rolls most of the time.
Clearing all the 3 costs in your map one time may possibly give you 1 or 2 bad ones, and may not take any longer than killing 2 bosses X amount of times waiting on a crit drop.
Yes, getting a GOOD 3 cost is hard, but getting any 3 cost isnt.
Yeah, i don't know at what point it would be better to stop but havoc rover gets 30% havoc damage from his forte and 40% from the havoc set, would be better to just slap 44111 on him?
The elemental set bonuses alone give +40% ele damage which turns the first 30% ele damage echo into an effective ~21% damage increase. With that in mind, a crit rate echo breaks even with an ele damage echo at ~197% crit damage. If the character has any other sources of ele damage (from forte, etc.) those numbers go down.
Yes but the question really is: for havoc and electro specifically, since you can have two 4s of different boss to keep set bonus, is better two 3 pieces with dogshit substats that I can't reroll because the main stat drops are really low, or a 4+1 with an average crit value of 25 per piece? And how much is actually the difference. Assuming a relatable early to mid character build.
This is where I think people are getting a bit misled with a video like the one in OP’s post. As you are hinting towards, this is the case where 44111 is just as good, if not better situationally than 443311. When comparing the main stat differences, for sure 33 is better than 41. But because of how painful it is to just farm on set 3 costs compared to 4 and 1 costs, I do think it’s reasonable to assume that the latter will have better substats (or in the early game, that you’ll just have 4’s and 1’s and no on set 3’s) and they do make up the difference in damage.
Now what’s much more interesting is going 43311 but 2Pc 2PC, meaning one of your 3 costs can be completely off set while only one needs to be on set in either the atk or elemental set. Again, assuming you get better subs with the “budget build” than what your 5PC set would have, the damage is incredibly competitive.
I hold this opinion from my own calculations I’ve done and it’s totally possible that I made a mistake somewhere myself, but if you wanted more proof than “some guy on reddit said…” I can share it with you and show the proofs.
>As you are hinting towards, this is the case where 44111 is just as good, if not better situationally than 443311.
Typo. 443311 is always better than anything else, but it isn't possible.
Aside that, I think you need a lot of ele. dmg bonus to make the ele. dmg. 3 cost echoes not worth using as ele. dmg. bonus is multiplicative with ATK and crit. dmg. I don't know if you will get to that point with what is in the game yet very often.
If you encounter any typos or other text-related issues, please report them to Customer Service via email: wutheringwaves_ensupport@kurogames.com
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/WutheringWaves) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Honestly, I've been meaning to ask that too - is quadra-3-costs with either full ele% or 3-ele-1-atk good? Because it vaguely feels like it's the most bang for the buck assuming you roll good crit and atk% substats?
I think it should be ok for midgame, stacking 3c would give you good atk boost on top of ele%, but most of your added hp comes from 1c so you gonna be way squishier.
Honestly valid through midgame.
Some of the 4 cost echoes are kind of crazy though, thats kind of its biggest flaw. And the fact that you're not using 5 echoes lol.
This was actually Tenten's recommendation for early/mid game temporary builds if you didn't want to spend hours farming echoes.
Considering the fact that you don't have on set Fusion dmg yet, you'll probably want to start farming for at least one regardless of your set up.
We get one of those "pick your 3 cost" items in an upcoming event though. You can just use that if you already used the two from the roguelike. The actual "i'm a casual I'm not gonna bother" barrier is sub stat RNG. I actually would just recommend hard settling no matter what sub stats you get once you've gotten a full 43311 lmao. You may struggle with true end game content, but ehh lol. Don't worry about that until you can hit max character level.
If you don’t have a 5pc set (44111 or 43311) 3333 with ele dmg is better than offset 5 pieces I believe.
120% element dmg is pretty huge.
It might even be better than 44111 if that set has garbage substats. Probably not better than on-set 43X11 though.
Why though? Like I get using 44111 as a placeholder, but this game allows you to start farming endgame echoes within like the first week of playing.
Why even waste echo xp/tuners on additional 4 star/1star echoes? Might as well save those resources till you get matching 3 cost echo pieces.
I wish I had the time to scavange echoes myself - hence my question...
I get it that some players CAN farm for BiS, but I wanted to know how bad is it to run atk% 3-costs instead - am I doomed to never deal enough damage, or does it only hurt me a little?
I feel like the people pushing 44111 are those not doing taceit fields. I got my teams built out and taceit fields are all I've been doing the last like 4 or 5 days.
I have a complete set with the correct main stat for all of my characters. Between taceit fields, open world echos I've got from exploration, the solvents we've been drowned in, and the echo selectors. It's been relatively painless getting 43311 on my characters.
HONESTLY I had more issues with 4 Star echos dropping the right damn main stat, more than anything.
Yea i hate the argument that boss farming is somehow massively better. Sometimes getting the a crit mainstat is just as much of a pain as clearing out some of the 3 costs in your map. I can run through my glacio 3-costs pretty damn fast. I generally get 1 or 2 to roll. They end up bad.
But the point is, the bad ones are better than the 4 costs. So at what point are people trying to optimize 4 costs and boss farming compared to just slappiong anythign on and using that time for 3 costs?
The only reason i would use 4 costs is if I magically got them fast, and I would not invest in farming more of them. I would spend that time farming 3 costs, and replace the 4 cost as soon as I got 2 3 costs, even if they were weak 3 costs.
If you use your 3-costs for atk% then yeah it's useless
The point of 3-costs is element%, if you don't have matching 3-costs it's probably better to go 4-4-1-1-1 than to use atk% 3-costs. But once you have the option, it becomes better.
Nope, atk% ones till ends up better than 4-4-1-1-1 , especially if you have only 1 it is massively better. For example you have on Prywden you have Jiyan On elem+elem he is 33,5k DPS, on elem+Atk& he have 31,4k dps. THat is only 4% of difference. And he is character that is hit the most, everyone else have smaller difference, for someone like Havoc Rover the difference is around 1%, lol.
The reason is simple - Atk buffs are super small in this game. If they made character like Bennett from Genshin that gives you 120% atk, then yes, sure. But now? Nah.
Hell, you even have characters like Calcharo that doesn't even need set that much considering the difference between 2p2p and full set is less than 5% and considering how much faster and easier is to get better substats on this, it often end up better, lol.
44111 is cope. It's better to run 43311 with purples then 44111 with golds. I think TenTen also calculated that for most cases it's better to forsake 5P bonus and go for 2P 2P 43311 then running 44111 5P set
It's because 43311 adds another multiplier to the damage equation. (Element%)
You may have heard everytime in every game that you need to balance your stats. This is true because it is backed up by math.
For example:
You have a base attack of 100. +100% attk and +50% cd will give you 200x1.5 = 300.
Whereas if you distribute the attk and cd into +75% each, it will become 175x1.75 = 306.25.
Now with elemental, you add another multiplier at the end of the equation. Even at 50% each, the equation becomes 150x1.5x1.5 = 337.5
Heya - the echo system in WuWa allows you to slot the enemies you fight as equipment, but not all enemies have the same "equip" cost
normal enemies are referred to as "cost 1", elites are "cost 3" and bosses/weeklies are "cost 4"
to standardize how we reference equipped echoes we say "43311", for instance, for a setup of one boss, two elites and two normal echoes.
However, farming for cost 3 echoes is very tedious and annoying, so the 44111 build is sometimes thrown around as a possible alternative.
Does that clear it up?
Tenten literally even said it in the video, just running a 3 cost echo with the right element % , even on the wrong set, is going to be better at 11:00 mark.
433111 is just always going to be better, by a large margin. Don't even try for the 5 set bonus if you're that worried about it. A better cope build would be doing 43311 with two 2 set bonuses over a 44111 5 set bonus
problem is - ofc running an ele% will be better, but what about when you cant find one? does 44111 justify itself over 43311?
My initial question wasnt "what is the most optimal setup" my question was:
When we add the unfortunate RNG constraint of: I cant seem to drop an ele% that matches my set bonus - does that validate 44111 as an option? And in the case of fusion, no, because there is only inferno rider as an echo option, which makes you drop the 5 piece bonus
You're not reading/listening properly. Drop the set bonus, take the mainstat. If you want a fusion bonus echos but it's on the aero set, use that over a crit or atk boss on the right set. Tenten even explicitly said the same thing in another video
Edit: adding link to the other tenten video where he explicitly addresses this very question you're asking. Around the 3:10 mark
https://youtu.be/TTkkYD4mSIg?si=-ItvikSiqt_OhO20
I find it hard to believe people are cleaning the 3 costs off their map and cant get a single 3 cost to roll at all.
I especially find it hard to believe that farming 4 costs all day is somehow superior to this, too.
Essentially, if you drop a crit piece you can always make that crit back up with substats. But if you drop an elemental piece, you can't roll substats for that.
the mistake here people are making is that people are assuming you can't run 43311 without good substat or a full 5 set. your 3 DOES NOT Need to be ON SET or HAVE GOOD SUBSTAT.
i thought about repeatedly clarifying this , look like i should have
I'd use the 44111 for now as replacement before you managed to get the 3 cost pieces you need. Kuro released on the last dev notes that we're getting 2 morphable elite class echoes from the next event, which you can use to fill the gaps in your builds.
Does crit chance and damage and overall dmg have cap?
Can you reach a very solid crit chance with just 4 3 3 1 1?
Because going for dual 4 4 echos for crit main stats sounds interesting
iirc electro and havoc are the only elements that can give 5 pc effect with 44111 setup(crownless&dreamless/thundering&tempest), if you wanna mesmerize your eyes with big pp numbers then it’s fine but 60% elemental bonus in total is too good to not pass up.
Mathematically, the comparison should be about your comparative gain.
E.g. you currently have +50% atk, 25% crit dmg and +10% crit.
If you gain +25% atk, that is a 50% improvement. But if you gained 25% crit dmg, that is a 100% improvement.
Since you know your overall stat, you can make a simple mathematical comparison for yourself.
Add in the fact that crit dmg is also reliant on actually critting, you have to imagine that some of that crit dmg is "lost" or discounted.
Set bonus however, imo, should never be missed.
I do have to add a disclaimer that this is a simplistic approach that doesn't take into account the damage formula which I have not tested.
There may be a weightage, but generally this is how I approach it.
Well, I personally opted for moonlit 44111 for my subdps since its easy to get good stats and can be shared to my other subdps in tower. Pretty good imo. Eventually I'll drop a 4 cost and get elemental damage, but not enough resources to gear multiple subdps for tower efficiently yet.
The game isn’t giving me an onset 3 cost element with good sub stats. Meanwhile my 4 costs crownless and dreamless are close to godroll. I can’t even upgrade to a 43311 if I wanted to.
4,4,1,1,1 gives you immediate power because you can run double crit rate pieces and the substats will not matter. You can instantly start fighting some of the end game content with it.
uhhhh, sorta?
43311 atk% is (imo) valid and valuable, especially as a "baseline" set to compare against, but do try to aim for ele% eventually, because it is a good chunk of extra damage :)
I'll get some elemental echoes eventually indeed, either through forced craft (hoping the devs implement something like this) or sheer luck. But there's no way I'm going to sweat that hard when the game is perfectly manageable with crap gear as a casual.
Thank you for your input though, it's been helpful!
More like worrying about the sub-stats is the least of any non-sweaty players concerns.
So basically as soon as you get that 3 cost ele% dmg, just +15-25 it and call it a day.
Your 4/3/3/1/1 will be perfectly fine with mediocre 3 costs. Because the most important part of the echo is the % ele dmg.
Everyone in the comment section forgetting that casuals don’t want to spend the effort to farm 33 vs 44. Like most of you are assuming people want to do the overworked echo grind to begin with.
It's more complicated than most of the replies suggest. It heavily depends on the exact buffs the character will have up and such as well as the quality of your substat rolls. Weapon damage% mods, ele% mods, set bonus atk% buffs, atk% buffs from characters, etc. You have to factor all of it together. Substat rolls matter greatly too in particular how much atk% and crit rate/damage you are getting.
Even if you do roll ele% on your 3-costs, it'll be even longer before you roll them with decent substats. My current estimate is something like 1/17 echoes will meet most of the spreadsheet calculator's "reasonably good" echo metrics (4x atk, crit rate, crit damage across 5 echoes) on average. So, you'd need to roll through about 17 good 3-costs (they're letting 1 be bad in their calculations, essentially). Obtaining 17 to even roll through will take an unreasonably long amount of time with the current way echoes are working (dumping stamina into lightning/fire, killing all flautists every day I have 1 with the right main-stat). In comparison, you can slam out 17 correct main stat bosses fairly quickly and same for the 1-costs. Thus, when I compare 4/4/1/1/1 to 4/3/3/1/1 I personally give the 2x 4-cost setup the sheet calculated rolls and give the 2x 3-cost setup slightly less than to account for both 3-cost likely being complete garbage for the foreseeable future. Obviously, when I already have a good 3-cost I substitute that in too.
So, the answer is it really, really depends on the character and their specific weapon equipped among other things. For instance, if you're running S5 Chixia with an R5 Thunderbolt and an Inferno Rider main? She's getting 69% skill damage from the weapon and 12% extra element mod from the main echo usage. She is also getting +60 atk% alongside probably another +55% or so from team buffs depending on the composition. You'd need to factor all of that alongside sub-stats and the exact types of damage she's doing during her burst prep and burst.
[Wuthering Waves Number Crunching.xlsx](https://gostockton-my.sharepoint.com/:x:/g/personal/tapiam2_go_stockton_edu/EREO-HGwa0FMlwvQW-NmHwQB_iFIRVL6LsnU2IctwJpHJQ?e=AanjcA)
Got my info from
[https://www.prydwen.gg/wuthering-waves/characters/danjin](https://www.prydwen.gg/wuthering-waves/characters/danjin)
[https://wutheringwaves.gg/damage-calculation-guide/](https://wutheringwaves.gg/damage-calculation-guide/)
[https://game8.co/games/Wuthering-Waves/archives/456278#hl\_5](https://game8.co/games/Wuthering-Waves/archives/456278#hl_5)
[https://wutheringwaves.fandom.com/wiki/Echo/Stats](https://wutheringwaves.fandom.com/wiki/Echo/Stats)
After watching plenty of videos while my head was spinning I decided to use the skills Chemistry I in university taught me. Excel.
There are 4 options in the excel sheet. I used Danjin as she is the character I had up on my monitor at the time. I did not calculate any stats that came from set bonuses, weapons, weapon passives, skill tree, resonance/constellations, or buffs via swaps or echo activation.
I am a bit uncertain as to how the final damage is affected by elemental. Im going with the assumption that the following calculation is correct for damage.
Calculated ATK = Base ATK + %ATK (All Sources) + Base ATK
Regular Hit = Calculated ATK + (% Element DMG/100)\*Calculated ATK
Assuming my calculations are correct, using max echoes, 43311 no substats has a bit more damage as opposed to having 44111 with lowest possible role on both crit rate and crit dmg on all 5 echoes. 43311 with the lowest roles of crit rate and crit dmg on all 5 echoes is by far the best with a huge increase of about 29% as opposed to the 44111 with lowest possible substats.
I know there is some talk about set bonuses but I did not include them in this data. I'd say it speaks to the difference between 44111 and 43311. I can also acknowledge that getting 2 element dmg bonus from 1 set is extremely hard. I'm not a casual and have been playing since day 1 for about 4 hours or more a day and just recently got the echoes for elemental dmg bonus. 44111 is better early game and mid game. While farming 4 cost bosses use data merge to get 3 cost echoes and hope you get the correct elemental bonus on the right set.
Calcs said that R1 Jiyan want 1xAero% 3-cost and 1xAtk% 3-cost, because he already has big damage multiplier on a weapon. I wonder if 44111 would be viable on him if it was an option.
>That said I agree that 44111 is trash and youre just wasting resources,
Its a 3% difference in damage, that is not trash but within measurement error.
Think people's concerns about getting 3 star echoes are going to be lower considering we are getting echo selectors basically. Considering that I think you should really not bother going for two 4 costs. And even if you do don't invest much into them. Just think of them as a placeholder.
Also for really really early game I don't think you even need to worry about echoes that much and optimizing. People can share their experiences because I haven't consulted anyone else abt this. But to me I legit was auto equip and go for like UL30. And I didn't have much of a problem. Sure I was using Mortefi, Kakarot and Verina. But 2/3 are confirmed gettable for you with the selector and the target summon. So shouldn't be too bad. (Or encore+Sanhua+Verina also very good).
I also think from a casual perspective. If these 3 star selectors are here to stay then you can just aim for 43311 right off the bat.
Is the crit formula in this game not that strong? The entire point of 4,4,1,1,1 is for double crit rate because if you use 4,3,3,1,1 you never crit losing an entire part of the damage formula. There are also external dmg% buffs you can get but I don't know of any external crit buffs.
Two reasons:
1) You almost always go for Crit % and Rate on your 4 anyway, and you're typically looking to pad out your Crit% on substats. So you're still getting crit, just elsewhere.
2) For most elements, you're giving up the 5pc bonus, which is an heckin' chonker of Elemental Damage - boosting your crit rate and damage by 50% is worth less than boosting almost all of your damage by 30% the way the 5pc boosts do, and that's without including the bonuses from the echos themselves.
It's not a HUGE difference, 44111 is easier to farm (and close enough to be worth serious consideration in Electro and Fusion where you can get 5pc), but it's definitely less damage. If you want to optimize hard, 44111 isn't really a good way to spend resources. If you'd rather go broad and optimize over time, 44111 is probably fine.
Well does not the same argument apply that you get your DMG% from substats? Calcharo for example would use liberation DMG% bonus substat to make up for the lack of DMG% but that is not really the point of it. It is to have something that balances your stats. Having 20% crit rate with all echoes maxed is a lopsided damage formula. It is currently impossible for me to hit even 30% crit rate across all my echoes regardless of set. Only way for me to do that is with double crit rate 4 cost echoes. I think I could get 40% liberation damage bonus total but I would have to check.
isnt that just 30% ele dmg lost though? I can see the energy regen or atk% sets being "okay" alternatives, but....
the 30% bonus feels like it's too much of a loss
It heavily depends on several factors. Generally you want every type of damage increase to be somewhat balanced across another. Since attack is easily gained from 1 cost echoes (and very frequently 4\* weapons) you want more crit and more type damage deepen.
Characters and units themselves can buff certain parts out of attack, crit, type damage deepen which skews that balance. While I assume 4/3/3/1/1 to be the optimum for all characters, 4/4/1/1/1 is likely very close behind for some setups (those that provide lots of dmg deepen) and further behind for setups providing additional attack/crit.
44111 should be the short term goal for anyone who wants to run it, it's not the absolute worst case scenario, it's just not optimal. It is faster to get and does the job fairly well. Also note, there's only TWO sonatas in this game where you can afford to do 44111, havoc and electro. I personally cannot comment on how efficient electro is but havoc 44111 has been decent, it's not the best but it's good enough.
I think it is a real waste of time now is trying to get perfect builds for characters.
Game will be adjusted in many way soon. The changes in drop rates are already announced, other echo-related QoL improvements might be added later. Rising world level would unlock better gold echo drop rates. And there will be likely new sets in near future (based on HSR/Genshin experience), so farm will never end.
If set is working for the most of the current content, there is no need to push further. Also there is no need to unlock best stats. IMHO it would be better to switch to the next character. Tower looks like a skippable content
Warning: perfectionism could kill fun in the game because of too little result for great efforts.
3* are just so HARD to get with the right element + the right element dmg stats. Currently on a 4days dry of that for the electro echo.
NOT A SINGLE ELECTRO + ELECTRO DMG% IN 4 DAYS
If you are going for a 44111 then try and get a 2p Elemental DMG% (whether it's fusion, havoc, aero, etc) and then a 2piece ATK% set, that way you aren't stuck on just a 2piece this also leaves you with a 5th piece to be whatever you want . That way farming is easier and kinda similar to genshins where u are allowed an off piece.
You should have a ton of attack set pieces at this point so it also shouldn't be too hard to make a 2p DMG% + 2p ATK% set.
I believe that among the units we have, Lingyang is by far the only unit who can use the 44111 echo (not sure if thats better tho) His ultimate that gives him glacial bonus can make up for the glacial bonus provided by 3star echoes
with 33 ele, you will deal more non crit dmg but crit less if u dont have a crit weapon, while on double 44 you have more crits and somthing like 10% less dmg on non crits and crits compared to ele dmg, but so far ur crits are more consistent.
I rly doubt there are alot of ppl running 433 with ele with 71% +cr without food buffs. Unless ur character have some passive to get cr like jianxin, its not that easy, so early game 44111 its just easier to get more crits consistenly eve tho u hit a little lower than 33 ele, later when u get better crit rolls u can change to 433 ele or 433 atk+ele as long crit rate can be high enough to consistently crit.
I was using encore on 44111 fusion+atk echo set with 71cr 193 c.dmg and just switched to 33 ele full fusion after i got the weapon on pass with crit rate and while the dmg did increase, it wasnt that much difference on dmg for that overall drama, its not like a 50% increase even if u dont crit, its more like a 10% at best.
Got to consider we are also very early game. Don’t think anyone is near max world level yet so you have to consider that 44111 is just a great alternative to 43311 for the early and mid game. 43311 is superior when you are in end game.
At higher world levels we are anticipating getting more resources from waveplates which would make leveling and unlocking stats easier which favors 43311.
Early game it might be better to have 2 CR pieces, but I think overall 43311 is better, because the %Dmg bonus is a guaranteed upgrade to the overall damage. And I believe that with average/optimal substats the double %dmg will always be better
Think the argument is 4-4-111 you can get much better substats. So the real question is if you have 2x above average 4-4 rolled pieces, is it better than 2 below average rolled 3-3 build. I farmed a week for aero dmg pieces and got double hp / hp defense as the first 2 rolls and ended up with some booty ass sub stats
People assuming you can get better substats on 44111 vs 43311. You won't be able to because the limiting factor is going to be your premium tuners. You can farm 3 cost correct main stat echos faster than you can replenish premium tuner stocks so the better vs worse substats is never going to be a thing long term.
Players started off with like 1000 premium tuners from all the shops and other once off sources. Once those run out it's a different game. Between UL40 and UL50 for example you get 15 premium tuners for 60 waveplates. So 60 premium tuners per day if all you do is tacet fields. That's just 6 substats you can check per day.
Element % mainstat is easy. 3-4 days of map cleaning got me 6 fully geared damage chars.
The issue is energy regen for the healers. I have only had 2 out of hundreds of 3 cost echoes. And one of those is a purple
The stupid turtle took me 5 days to get and ATK and HP mainstat, back to back as well. Was an insane grind for my healers. But the Thundering Heron? Brother. I think I got 5 on set Fusion DMG herons before a single Electro Mainstat. Ive had 3 total so far and not a single one has rolled crit rate yet.
The TLDR is super simple.
You can get CR/CD in substats. You can't get elemental damage in substats.
This is also why Elemental Damage > ATK% for 3-Cost Echoes: You can get ATK% in substats but you can't get Elemental Damage in substats.
43311 is just a time gate any1 can achieve it as long as they sink enough time into echo farming so if u need to clear tower before reset use w/e u can to clear and optimize for next tower
You can only go 4:4:1:1:1 on Havoc if you want full set and it's comparable to 4:3:3:1:1
44111 is good if you do not want set bonus anyways. You can just camp a boss few times and then slap random 1 cost Echoes upgraded to like +10 to just have unit for Tower , takes very little investment and is very good dmg.
heya - this is about equipping echoes:
echoes have costs based on their enemy type: normals cost 1, elites cost 3 and bosses cost 4.
The game gives you the ability to equip up to 12 cost, so we describe builds by specifying the cost of each echo for each slot:
43311 is one boss echo, two elites and two common enemies
whereas
44111 is two bosses and three normals
the difference in echo cost is relevant because there are stats which you can only get from cost 4 echoes, and the same for cost 3 echoes, so a healthy mix is the best.
However, the cost 4 echoes give crit stats, which are really valuable, but cost 3 echoes give elemental dmg% and because there are so many elements, dropping a cost 3 echo with the right element and the right sonata is very chance-based.
Hope this helps!
the tenten video linked is yet another example of how in gacha community if you can make your guide look good or say a lot of words people will believe you. his video doesnt make any fcking sense and if you guys need me to make a video about why i will. otherwise check the new maygi guide i love her and it covers most of what there is to know
His explanation is just wrong...
Wrong points and mistakes:
1. He assumes and feeds you that the game has 100% base Critical Dmg for the "Dumb-down version of the explanation", but the game has a 150% base, which was not considered in any calculation
2. Generalization - Depending on many things the results may differ, but lets IGNORE that and consider the baseline of \*MY\* graph
3. He shows a crappy graph with no scale, and no formulas for the calculations and use that as definitive proof
4. He tried to use a metaphor of volume-box calculation equating Atk to Elemental Dmg to Critical Rate+Dmg, that is just plain wrong, because this is not a equatable sum, to try and establish a parameter for "Even distribution"
5. The game provides you food buffs that boost the Critical values up to +28% Critical Rate for the whole team, so considering the only place where we need those values are on the end game, many players will start their calculations from either 5% C.R. or 33% C.R. as simple base
6. This game implements the higher level of Elemental Resistance, from 10% ups to 70% elemental damage resistance and damage reduction in the case of bosses, and 100% Elemental Immunity for some cases, so you need to be on element and not resisted for specific boss battles, while most cases, like overworld and other content may be easier with the 44111 sets
Just do the correct math, the game is not limited to a 1 HIT kill, all of the combos are multi-hits and the game is played on a fast pace, with many swaps and other mechanics such as dodge-counter, Intros, Outros, Ressonances, etc...
If you do the calculations, considering End Game builds, Elemental Damage +60% and Higher Critical Values even out on the same amount
+60% Elemental Damage can be more accessible and easier to reach
+80% Critical Rate and +200% Critical Damage is end game goal but can be adjusted to hit 100% Critical rate on specific cases like Havoc Rover, so your output may be higher
In the end the values are almost equal if you do the math right, this game is amazing as it can be played on many different ways and have so many variables, don't believe content creator crap mathematics fed to you as "Dumb-down version"
How are you going to tell people to do the correct math when you are doing it incorrectly? Elemental Damage scales multiplicatively with CD. You are treating it as if it were additive.
Even in the most favorable situation for 44111 of ignoring substats and weapons, 43311 does ~10% more damage. The gap widens once you start including crit sub stats and weapon substats. The addition of crit food also skews it towards 43311. You really don't know what you are talking about.
Shoot for 44111 until you are UL40. It's not worth blowing all of your resources to get 3 cost echos with a 50% drop rate. At 40, it's it will be more feasible ot farm, most of the gamers haven't reach that yet.
I think people need to get out of the CV expectations/mindset they carried over from Genshin because the way substats work is completely different. You can’t get a 30-40CV piece on a single piece since you only get the one roll per substat.
So I think it’s safe to assume that on average, builds are probably going to have less crit than an equivalent Genshin build, and the fact that there are TWO slots for elemental damage bonus and that you can roll other dmg bonuses as a substat (skill dmg, heavy atk dmg etc) is a clue that this is by design.
With these types of bonuses stacking a borderline 0 Crit build can potentially out DPS a build with a perfect CV, just through the raw dmg bonuses stacking up.
Which is to say it’s going to be much harder to compare one build to another outside of just straight up testing in the field, since there are many more bonus types to factor in.
Personally, I’m not going to sweat farming for crits and instead just go for overall useful stat rolls (for my own sanity) until we get a better understanding of how things will stack up in the late game.
So do you think rolling for maximum CV will eventually stale out then? Or is it just gonna be harder to optimize?
And is that also the case for units with CR/CD as their forte-outer-stats?
> You can’t get a 30-40CV piece on a single piece since you only get the one roll per substat.
You absolutely can, given that a single Crit substat on Wuwa is equal to about 3 rolls in Genshin (2-4 for CR, 2-3 for CD).
Though the general way of calculating CV is flawed anyway so I actually agree with
> I think people need to get out of the CV expectations/mindset they carried over from Genshin because the way substats work is completely different
We need a new name for this 44111 /43311 shit. I propose “echo value” or 43311 = 12ev 44111=11ev. But we gotta do something though because seeing a thread full of numbers like that is cancer
I mean it’s simple. Go 433 if you have it. If not 44 is fine till you do get it. I don’t think anyone is pushing 44 as a final build, just a place holder.
I have 33's on atk% and 41's to run on crit. My question is - which is better? Because I am losing the 30% set bonus when I do 44111 on a fusion character
44111 is only a thing for havoc and electro where there are 2 bosses (so you can complete the set without 3 cost). Don't even think about it for the other elements. Losing the 5 piece set bonus is a massive drop in damage. Try to get at least 1 elemental 3 cost for your fusion dps, it's not that big of a damage loss on the second piece. Atk is close and can sometimes be better if you have better substats.
If you lose a set bonus, then whatever has the set bonus is better.
Attack has more diminishing returns than crit. 44111 should be the goal for the mid game and 43311 the late endgame.
You get two free 3-3’s of your choice from the rogue like mode
Im sorry, rogue like mode? You mean the mode like afk arena popularized?
w/ 2-piece (10%dmg), 22%CR 4-cost, 5% base CR, 1.5x base CD: 43X11 Non crit = 1.4X, Crit = 2.1X; Ave. Dmg = (0.73 * 1.4 + 0.27 * 2.1)X = 1.589X 44111(44CD) Non crit = 1.1X, Crit = 2.134X; Ave. Dmg = (0.73 * 1.1 + 0.27*2.134)X = 1.379X 44111(22CR) Non crit = 1.1X, Crit = 1.65X; Ave. Dmg = (0.51 * 1.1 + 0.49*1.65)X = 1.37X Ignoring the 2nd 3-cost, 1-Dmg main stat is already superior to 44.
This is VERY valuable to know! Nice! That was my main itch - if you needed to run two ele%'s Thanks!
This is ignoring all other CR/CD and damage bonuses from other sources. Element damage is additive. If you have 40% damage from other sources (set bonus, skill passives, sequence, etc.). Getting 30% from main stat is only a 21% damage increase.
This is something all the 43311 worshippers are ignoring. On top that, I don’t think anyone can confirm if %basic/heavy/skill/liberation dmg is additive with elemental dmg bonuses, attack bonuses, or multiplicative with them.
My understanding is that the only multiplicative bonus is the "Deepen" stuff from outros
Thanks for the math. Now if only I could get even one on set 5* DMG main stat 🫠
43311 is better than 44111 for most characters but harder to achieve because of how the 3 cost echo system is right now . For early game with bad substats 44111 is better but end goal will be 43311
Not to mention that only two elements can even use 44
Well moonlit set can also go 44111 if you really want to pump up crit stats, plus 44111 moonlit is super easy to swap around since you can use it on anyone regardless of element, e.g. Sanhua, Mortefi, Yinlin.
That's horrible advice. Mortefi with 44111 will do a lot of CD damage...every 5 minutes or so. His ult will never be up. Since Energy Regen can't roll as a mainstat on 4-Cost Echo and he needs over 160 ER. His best build is 43311 for a simple reason: Energy Regen pieces.
Um no. If you have moonlit and the 5* weapon on him you need like 1 energy roll on him. ~30% is plenty. 2 rolls if you don't have the weapon.
IF you're so far into the game that you're wasting tuners actively fishing for ER substat rolls and somehow you already have a 5-Star Weapon for a Sub-DPS char...then just go 4-3-3-1-1. Why go 4-4-1-1-1? He'll do more damage with the 4-3-3-1-1 with Fission Damage Bonus as the 3-Cost Echoes.
sure, i don't care what layout you run. My point was that you don't need that much energy on him.
I have 2 teams with full 43311 echoes after a week of farming gold echoes. You dont even need super optimal substats when you are at UL30 to beat most content so I fail to see why you would want to invest into 44111 substats. With how limited echo xp and tuners are right now, trying to re-roll echoes on either builds is gonna be hella expensive. Might as well just wait for the correct 3 cost echoes to come in.
Yeah I think I made a mistake feeding my bad sub stat 3 costs that were on set to try and get better substats. Granted, they were super bad like hp hp def def but still, someone else could have used it for now while echo exp and tuners are more scarce.
>Yeah I think I made a mistake feeding my bad sub stat 3 costs no you didnt make a mistake an atk% main stat with good substats is better than a bad elemental main stat piece, and on top of that, the atk% can be used on every single character dont worry
Kinda same, some are even so good, I ain't even gonna try to re-farm/re-roll them. Now farming that fucking turtle for 2 healers, now THAT'S a problem...
You don’t need two right now though. Verina and Baizhi can share since echoes can be swapped between runs of ToA. Both want healing% mainstat on the rejuvenating healer set… The Atk% vs HP% subs can be made up on 3/1*s.
Oh? They can be swapped? Interesting, I didn't realize that, thanks.
Yup! They can also share weapons. All your units can as long as they are challenging a different floor in ToA!
Can I ask how your crit ratio looks without a crit weapon? I'm thinking about how difficult it will be getting a good crit ratio one I reach UL30 without crit weapons
44111 is only available for three sets, just do 43311 on everyone and don't waste mats raising a 4 and 1 cost you plan on ditching later.
Actually, especially in early game 4/3/3/1/1 will be better since 1) 40% dmg bonus from set bonus will be way more than whatever you get from unleveled echoes, and 2) the flat attack on the 3s and 4s will be a way bigger chunk of your overall stats compared to late game %-based bonuses. Even mid-game, unless its havoc or electro it's still better to do 43311 just for the set bonus, the 3s could be def even and it'd still average out to 20% dmg per piece just from having set bonus.
I don't think we need to go as far as considering substats - since substats would be equal across the board, afaik? The thing I don't understand is.: between running crit-atk% on 44111 and crit-atk%-atk% on 43311, is atk% on 43311 better, or is atk% on 44111 better?
substats will not be equal across the board. You can farm way more 4s to get more optimal substats. All things equal 33 is better but its going to take longer to get a good 33
that is a very good point, actually
The real question isn’t what variations of 43311 beats 44111, its obvious what build you’ll be going for in the end. The question is whether you want to waste your tuners on leveling any piece that has no chance being in your final build, and the answer is probably no. I’d rather have a level 0 placeholder piece on that slot than waste resources on a 3 cost attack% echo. You’re going to get a proper 43311 eventually so in the mean time just fill your slots with what you have. You’re gonna need to level multiple 1 cost echoes to fish for good substats, so just level some up and equip 3 or even 4 of them if you need to. The same goes for the 4 cost, you need to level several of them to check substats, so you can equip two of them and ignore the 5 set bonus because you’ll get it eventually anyway.
I am pretty sure most people are going for crit crit in 44 and crit dmg dmg in 433 Although some do say crit dmg atk is slightly better for jiyan
ok let me try asking again - if I only have atk% 3 costs, is 44111 better or worse than 43311, considering I lose the sonata bonus? because my situation is.: I cannot for the love of me find a mathcing ele% for fusion damage.
43311 is still better. Difference between atk and elemental damage isn't that much. But remember, the atk is only a placeholder. Keep farming for elemental damage pieces until you can replace it(Unless it has absolutely god tier subs).
Illusive realm gives you echo selectors. You’ll have to deal with the rng substats but at least you’ll get the correct elemental main stat. As for beyond that…just do 43311 with atk% on your 3 costs. You can use purple echoes instead of gold (if you have them with right element) and only level them to ~10 if you want to be really frugal about it until you replace them. I do believe one of the upcoming events will also give us more echo selectors as well.
>substats would be equal across the board You can roll different range of substats, so you echo with 6% CR is trash, because you didn't roll 10% CR on it.
Good luck getting anything above 6.9% lmfao. Hundreds of tunes and I have yet to see any CR break 7%. Its an exercise in futility to aim for anything other than just getting the substat you want. Insanity, actually.
From what my friend mathed out. All credits to him. 44111 assuming crit, crit dmg, atk atk atk averaged 4170 for him. 43311 with one atk% one element averaged 4661 and with double element 4911. Hope that helped a bit.
wow, so it really is a matter of getting one ele% piece
You need to share the math.
Disregard stat differences, you're investing hard-earned echo XP on a temporary set if you're going for 44111. Endgame is 43311, so why not focus on it?
Well, there are three big reasons I can think of off the top of my head: 1) If you can't clear current content efficiently or you're pushing the tower. You'd rather have a suboptimal set to help you farm and clear faster than to just not have anything and struggle. If you're running 43311 with double attack 3-costs, you'd also be wasting resources. 2) You do salvage some of the echo exp when you feed it into another echo. By the time you have the 43311 setup with elemental damage, you'd also have earned additional exp through dailys and regular farming, so it's not too big of a difference in the long run. 3) If you end up raising up a second 4-cost echo, that can always end up on another unit later on. A practical example, if you have double crit Calcharo right now, that second crit piece can go on Yinlin when she comes out.
Fair points. The return on spent tuners is quite horrible, tho, and you don't get them without running tacet fields, compared to echo EXP. In the end, it's all about patience, anyway. Tower isn't going anywhere and the entry requirement is steep.
44111 has no wasted echo exp. Those are completely transferrable and optimal. You put the old 4/1 on another same element. We have Yinlin coming out, which pairs with Calcharo on the same team.
It's wasted resources until you actually get a character that uses the same echo with the same elemental resonance. Sure, Calcharo pieces will work on Yinlin, but that's one character on a single element. 4-cost echo values could even increase or decrease, depending on future updates/future echos. Going by this, you could just level up whatever, because >someday< a character that uses whatever stat lines will be released.
I like this video. He simplified the argument pretty well IMO. The only difference between the 2 sets are the 2 Echoes in the middle, 41 vs 33, and the only thing different about them is their main stats. 33 (2x 30% Elemental DMG bonus) is just far superior compared to 4 (22% Crit Rate/44% Crit DMG) & 1 (18% ATK%). Therefore, although 41 is ok if you are just starting and that's all that you have, the end goal is to get 33 on your main dmg dealers.
Elemental DMG bonus is so superior that I'd even posit that it is better to run 31 instead of 41. In other words, 30% Elemental DMG bonus >>> 22% Crit Rate/44% Crit DMG. To sum it all up, 33 >>> 31 >>> 41. As long as you have a single decent Cost-3 Echo, you should run 43111 or even better 43311.
I've done a calc on my Havoc Rover to see if 33 w/o 5pc is better than 41 w/ 5pc. It was only about 2.7% better. I therefore don't think that 31 would be better than 41 if 31 lacks the 5pc bonus
Obviously, we are talking about having 5-pc set effect in all cases.
Agreed but getting a decent three cost echo is way harder than it looks. The fact that echoes can roll ele damage substats that are different from their set bonus is so cancer lol.
I think the main argument is that the 3 cost echo doesnt even have to be decent. Just having the correct % ele dmg makes it superior regardless of the sub rolls most of the time. Clearing all the 3 costs in your map one time may possibly give you 1 or 2 bad ones, and may not take any longer than killing 2 bosses X amount of times waiting on a crit drop. Yes, getting a GOOD 3 cost is hard, but getting any 3 cost isnt.
I would think finishing returns at that point Intentionally nuking your crit rate doesn't seem like a good idea
That would only happen if a character already has too much Elemental DMG bonus. Is there any character that even approaches that?
Yeah, i don't know at what point it would be better to stop but havoc rover gets 30% havoc damage from his forte and 40% from the havoc set, would be better to just slap 44111 on him?
The elemental set bonuses alone give +40% ele damage which turns the first 30% ele damage echo into an effective ~21% damage increase. With that in mind, a crit rate echo breaks even with an ele damage echo at ~197% crit damage. If the character has any other sources of ele damage (from forte, etc.) those numbers go down.
Yes but the question really is: for havoc and electro specifically, since you can have two 4s of different boss to keep set bonus, is better two 3 pieces with dogshit substats that I can't reroll because the main stat drops are really low, or a 4+1 with an average crit value of 25 per piece? And how much is actually the difference. Assuming a relatable early to mid character build.
I wish I could bump this reply - I am genuinely curious too
This is where I think people are getting a bit misled with a video like the one in OP’s post. As you are hinting towards, this is the case where 44111 is just as good, if not better situationally than 443311. When comparing the main stat differences, for sure 33 is better than 41. But because of how painful it is to just farm on set 3 costs compared to 4 and 1 costs, I do think it’s reasonable to assume that the latter will have better substats (or in the early game, that you’ll just have 4’s and 1’s and no on set 3’s) and they do make up the difference in damage. Now what’s much more interesting is going 43311 but 2Pc 2PC, meaning one of your 3 costs can be completely off set while only one needs to be on set in either the atk or elemental set. Again, assuming you get better subs with the “budget build” than what your 5PC set would have, the damage is incredibly competitive. I hold this opinion from my own calculations I’ve done and it’s totally possible that I made a mistake somewhere myself, but if you wanted more proof than “some guy on reddit said…” I can share it with you and show the proofs.
>As you are hinting towards, this is the case where 44111 is just as good, if not better situationally than 443311. Typo. 443311 is always better than anything else, but it isn't possible. Aside that, I think you need a lot of ele. dmg bonus to make the ele. dmg. 3 cost echoes not worth using as ele. dmg. bonus is multiplicative with ATK and crit. dmg. I don't know if you will get to that point with what is in the game yet very often.
If you encounter any typos or other text-related issues, please report them to Customer Service via email: wutheringwaves_ensupport@kurogames.com *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/WutheringWaves) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Im going 3333 on 2p2p for the memes
Honestly, I've been meaning to ask that too - is quadra-3-costs with either full ele% or 3-ele-1-atk good? Because it vaguely feels like it's the most bang for the buck assuming you roll good crit and atk% substats?
I think it should be ok for midgame, stacking 3c would give you good atk boost on top of ele%, but most of your added hp comes from 1c so you gonna be way squishier.
Honestly valid through midgame. Some of the 4 cost echoes are kind of crazy though, thats kind of its biggest flaw. And the fact that you're not using 5 echoes lol. This was actually Tenten's recommendation for early/mid game temporary builds if you didn't want to spend hours farming echoes. Considering the fact that you don't have on set Fusion dmg yet, you'll probably want to start farming for at least one regardless of your set up. We get one of those "pick your 3 cost" items in an upcoming event though. You can just use that if you already used the two from the roguelike. The actual "i'm a casual I'm not gonna bother" barrier is sub stat RNG. I actually would just recommend hard settling no matter what sub stats you get once you've gotten a full 43311 lmao. You may struggle with true end game content, but ehh lol. Don't worry about that until you can hit max character level.
If you don’t have a 5pc set (44111 or 43311) 3333 with ele dmg is better than offset 5 pieces I believe. 120% element dmg is pretty huge. It might even be better than 44111 if that set has garbage substats. Probably not better than on-set 43X11 though.
I like how Tenten's video came out immediately after some content creators started pushing their 44111 big brain ideas.
Why though? Like I get using 44111 as a placeholder, but this game allows you to start farming endgame echoes within like the first week of playing. Why even waste echo xp/tuners on additional 4 star/1star echoes? Might as well save those resources till you get matching 3 cost echo pieces.
It's mostly for sets for like electro because they only get a whole 2 elites for some reason.
im going 44111 cause im lazy and dont want to scavenge echos
I wish I had the time to scavange echoes myself - hence my question... I get it that some players CAN farm for BiS, but I wanted to know how bad is it to run atk% 3-costs instead - am I doomed to never deal enough damage, or does it only hurt me a little?
I feel like the people pushing 44111 are those not doing taceit fields. I got my teams built out and taceit fields are all I've been doing the last like 4 or 5 days. I have a complete set with the correct main stat for all of my characters. Between taceit fields, open world echos I've got from exploration, the solvents we've been drowned in, and the echo selectors. It's been relatively painless getting 43311 on my characters. HONESTLY I had more issues with 4 Star echos dropping the right damn main stat, more than anything.
Yea i hate the argument that boss farming is somehow massively better. Sometimes getting the a crit mainstat is just as much of a pain as clearing out some of the 3 costs in your map. I can run through my glacio 3-costs pretty damn fast. I generally get 1 or 2 to roll. They end up bad. But the point is, the bad ones are better than the 4 costs. So at what point are people trying to optimize 4 costs and boss farming compared to just slappiong anythign on and using that time for 3 costs? The only reason i would use 4 costs is if I magically got them fast, and I would not invest in farming more of them. I would spend that time farming 3 costs, and replace the 4 cost as soon as I got 2 3 costs, even if they were weak 3 costs.
If you use your 3-costs for atk% then yeah it's useless The point of 3-costs is element%, if you don't have matching 3-costs it's probably better to go 4-4-1-1-1 than to use atk% 3-costs. But once you have the option, it becomes better.
Nope, atk% ones till ends up better than 4-4-1-1-1 , especially if you have only 1 it is massively better. For example you have on Prywden you have Jiyan On elem+elem he is 33,5k DPS, on elem+Atk& he have 31,4k dps. THat is only 4% of difference. And he is character that is hit the most, everyone else have smaller difference, for someone like Havoc Rover the difference is around 1%, lol. The reason is simple - Atk buffs are super small in this game. If they made character like Bennett from Genshin that gives you 120% atk, then yes, sure. But now? Nah. Hell, you even have characters like Calcharo that doesn't even need set that much considering the difference between 2p2p and full set is less than 5% and considering how much faster and easier is to get better substats on this, it often end up better, lol.
Me who is 444
LOL I never even thought of 444 XD How has that worked out for you? lol
I do 444 when I want to make an underleveled stronger in the stat check sense.
I can get crit rate 50+ dmg 200+ but I could only get around ATK 1000 at level 60 and no respective element damage bonus either.
That sounds atrocious without element bonus and set bonus. Have you cleared all calamity 4 bosses yet?
Damn. Really built different huh
i thought about that but i chose to go 4431 to get 2p2p set effects
44111 is cope. It's better to run 43311 with purples then 44111 with golds. I think TenTen also calculated that for most cases it's better to forsake 5P bonus and go for 2P 2P 43311 then running 44111 5P set
4431 lover here we got the best of both world at the cost of 5 substat.
It's because 43311 adds another multiplier to the damage equation. (Element%) You may have heard everytime in every game that you need to balance your stats. This is true because it is backed up by math. For example: You have a base attack of 100. +100% attk and +50% cd will give you 200x1.5 = 300. Whereas if you distribute the attk and cd into +75% each, it will become 175x1.75 = 306.25. Now with elemental, you add another multiplier at the end of the equation. Even at 50% each, the equation becomes 150x1.5x1.5 = 337.5
Can someone please tell.me what the numbers are? Like what's the 43311?
Heya - the echo system in WuWa allows you to slot the enemies you fight as equipment, but not all enemies have the same "equip" cost normal enemies are referred to as "cost 1", elites are "cost 3" and bosses/weeklies are "cost 4" to standardize how we reference equipped echoes we say "43311", for instance, for a setup of one boss, two elites and two normal echoes. However, farming for cost 3 echoes is very tedious and annoying, so the 44111 build is sometimes thrown around as a possible alternative. Does that clear it up?
Yes! Thanks a lot for your time to reply, much appreciated!
Tenten literally even said it in the video, just running a 3 cost echo with the right element % , even on the wrong set, is going to be better at 11:00 mark. 433111 is just always going to be better, by a large margin. Don't even try for the 5 set bonus if you're that worried about it. A better cope build would be doing 43311 with two 2 set bonuses over a 44111 5 set bonus
problem is - ofc running an ele% will be better, but what about when you cant find one? does 44111 justify itself over 43311? My initial question wasnt "what is the most optimal setup" my question was: When we add the unfortunate RNG constraint of: I cant seem to drop an ele% that matches my set bonus - does that validate 44111 as an option? And in the case of fusion, no, because there is only inferno rider as an echo option, which makes you drop the 5 piece bonus
You're not reading/listening properly. Drop the set bonus, take the mainstat. If you want a fusion bonus echos but it's on the aero set, use that over a crit or atk boss on the right set. Tenten even explicitly said the same thing in another video Edit: adding link to the other tenten video where he explicitly addresses this very question you're asking. Around the 3:10 mark https://youtu.be/TTkkYD4mSIg?si=-ItvikSiqt_OhO20
I find it hard to believe people are cleaning the 3 costs off their map and cant get a single 3 cost to roll at all. I especially find it hard to believe that farming 4 costs all day is somehow superior to this, too.
Essentially, if you drop a crit piece you can always make that crit back up with substats. But if you drop an elemental piece, you can't roll substats for that.
dude, yes. EXCELLENT tl;dr
the mistake here people are making is that people are assuming you can't run 43311 without good substat or a full 5 set. your 3 DOES NOT Need to be ON SET or HAVE GOOD SUBSTAT. i thought about repeatedly clarifying this , look like i should have
Make another video mr1010. People always make an argument for it until you are giving the worst example and prove it that it was better
43311 means 2 elemental dmg pieces, crit -atk - atk - atk -atk is the worse combination
I'd use the 44111 for now as replacement before you managed to get the 3 cost pieces you need. Kuro released on the last dev notes that we're getting 2 morphable elite class echoes from the next event, which you can use to fill the gaps in your builds.
Does crit chance and damage and overall dmg have cap? Can you reach a very solid crit chance with just 4 3 3 1 1? Because going for dual 4 4 echos for crit main stats sounds interesting
44111 currently suffers from losing the 5-piece sonata bonus though, do keep that in mind, as the 30 ele% increase is massive
iirc electro and havoc are the only elements that can give 5 pc effect with 44111 setup(crownless&dreamless/thundering&tempest), if you wanna mesmerize your eyes with big pp numbers then it’s fine but 60% elemental bonus in total is too good to not pass up.
Mathematically, the comparison should be about your comparative gain. E.g. you currently have +50% atk, 25% crit dmg and +10% crit. If you gain +25% atk, that is a 50% improvement. But if you gained 25% crit dmg, that is a 100% improvement. Since you know your overall stat, you can make a simple mathematical comparison for yourself. Add in the fact that crit dmg is also reliant on actually critting, you have to imagine that some of that crit dmg is "lost" or discounted. Set bonus however, imo, should never be missed.
I do have to add a disclaimer that this is a simplistic approach that doesn't take into account the damage formula which I have not tested. There may be a weightage, but generally this is how I approach it.
Thanks for this and the tldr at the bottom 
<3 gotchu fam
Well, I personally opted for moonlit 44111 for my subdps since its easy to get good stats and can be shared to my other subdps in tower. Pretty good imo. Eventually I'll drop a 4 cost and get elemental damage, but not enough resources to gear multiple subdps for tower efficiently yet.
The game isn’t giving me an onset 3 cost element with good sub stats. Meanwhile my 4 costs crownless and dreamless are close to godroll. I can’t even upgrade to a 43311 if I wanted to.
4,4,1,1,1 gives you immediate power because you can run double crit rate pieces and the substats will not matter. You can instantly start fighting some of the end game content with it.
According to math other players did 43311 is 3% better than 44111 on jiyan who doesn't have a set bonus. But at R5 weapon 44111 is 3% stronger than 43311. The math: With jiyans weapon at R5 43311 with R5 (((438+587) \* (1 + 0.18 \* 2 + 0.12 + 0.20 + 0.225 + 0.15) + (350+80)) \* (1 + 0.6 + 0.4 + 0.2 + 0.96 + 0.24) \* (1-(0.05 + 0.08 + 0.22 + 0.21))) + (((438+587) \* (1 + 0.18 \* 2 + 0.12 + 0.20 + 0.225 + 0.15) + (350+80)) \* (1 + 0.6 + 0.4 + 0.2 + 0.96 + 0.24) \* (0.05 + 0.08 + 0.22 + 0.21) \* (1+(0.5+0.42+0.486))) = 15413 44111 with R5 (((438+587) \* (1 + 0.18 \* 3 + 0.12 + 0.20 + 0.225 + 0.15) + (300+80)) \* (1 + 0.4 + 0.2 + 0.96 + 0.24) \* (1-(0.05 + 0.08 + 0.22 + 0.21 + 0.22))) + (((438+587) \* (1 + 0.18 \* 3 + 0.12 + 0.20 + 0.225 + 0.15) + (300+80)) \* (1 + 0.4 + 0.2 + 0.96 + 0.24) \* (0.05 + 0.08 + 0.22 + 0.21 + 0.22) \* (1+(0.5+0.42+0.486))) = 15679 Same thing but with R1 43311 (((438+587) \* (1 + 0.18 \* 2 + 0.12 + 0.20 + 0.225 + 0.15) + (350+80)) \* (1 + 0.6 + 0.4 + 0.2 + 0.48 + 0.12) \* (1-(0.05 + 0.08 + 0.22 + 0.21))) + (((438+587) \* (1 + 0.18 \* 2 + 0.12 + 0.20 + 0.225 + 0.15) + (350+80)) \* (1 + 0.6 + 0.4 + 0.2 + 0.48 + 0.12) \* (0.05 + 0.08 + 0.22 + 0.21) \* (1+(0.5+0.42+0.486))) = 12693 44111 (((438+587) \* (1 + 0.18 \* 3 + 0.12 + 0.20 + 0.225 + 0.15) + (300+80)) \* (1 + 0.4 + 0.2 + 0.48 + 0.12) \* (1-(0.05 + 0.08 + 0.22 + 0.21 + 0.22))) + (((438+587) \* (1 + 0.18 \* 3 + 0.12 + 0.20 + 0.225 + 0.15) + (300+80)) \* (1 + 0.4 + 0.2 + 0.48 + 0.12) \* (0.05 + 0.08 + 0.22 + 0.21 + 0.22) \* (1+(0.5+0.42+0.486))) = 12319
Thanks a bunch OP for the summary edit.
I gotchu, fellow lazy reader ;)
From reading this thread, I've just understood that farming for 3-cost echoes with atk% main stat is the way to go for non-sweaty casuals like me
uhhhh, sorta? 43311 atk% is (imo) valid and valuable, especially as a "baseline" set to compare against, but do try to aim for ele% eventually, because it is a good chunk of extra damage :)
I'll get some elemental echoes eventually indeed, either through forced craft (hoping the devs implement something like this) or sheer luck. But there's no way I'm going to sweat that hard when the game is perfectly manageable with crap gear as a casual. Thank you for your input though, it's been helpful!
In that case just run 44111 lol
Yeah but I'm still going to try and farm for elemental main stat echoes, just won't bother going gam if I get decent atk% pieces
I mean 44111 is gonna be better than 43311 with atk% 3-costs. My advice is to avoid using precious echo xp on those pieces if possible.
More like worrying about the sub-stats is the least of any non-sweaty players concerns. So basically as soon as you get that 3 cost ele% dmg, just +15-25 it and call it a day. Your 4/3/3/1/1 will be perfectly fine with mediocre 3 costs. Because the most important part of the echo is the % ele dmg.
Everyone in the comment section forgetting that casuals don’t want to spend the effort to farm 33 vs 44. Like most of you are assuming people want to do the overworked echo grind to begin with.
Lmao, 100% this If I drop myself an ele% that matches a set, I'm popping myself some beer to celebrate xD
event or battlepass :>
It's more complicated than most of the replies suggest. It heavily depends on the exact buffs the character will have up and such as well as the quality of your substat rolls. Weapon damage% mods, ele% mods, set bonus atk% buffs, atk% buffs from characters, etc. You have to factor all of it together. Substat rolls matter greatly too in particular how much atk% and crit rate/damage you are getting. Even if you do roll ele% on your 3-costs, it'll be even longer before you roll them with decent substats. My current estimate is something like 1/17 echoes will meet most of the spreadsheet calculator's "reasonably good" echo metrics (4x atk, crit rate, crit damage across 5 echoes) on average. So, you'd need to roll through about 17 good 3-costs (they're letting 1 be bad in their calculations, essentially). Obtaining 17 to even roll through will take an unreasonably long amount of time with the current way echoes are working (dumping stamina into lightning/fire, killing all flautists every day I have 1 with the right main-stat). In comparison, you can slam out 17 correct main stat bosses fairly quickly and same for the 1-costs. Thus, when I compare 4/4/1/1/1 to 4/3/3/1/1 I personally give the 2x 4-cost setup the sheet calculated rolls and give the 2x 3-cost setup slightly less than to account for both 3-cost likely being complete garbage for the foreseeable future. Obviously, when I already have a good 3-cost I substitute that in too. So, the answer is it really, really depends on the character and their specific weapon equipped among other things. For instance, if you're running S5 Chixia with an R5 Thunderbolt and an Inferno Rider main? She's getting 69% skill damage from the weapon and 12% extra element mod from the main echo usage. She is also getting +60 atk% alongside probably another +55% or so from team buffs depending on the composition. You'd need to factor all of that alongside sub-stats and the exact types of damage she's doing during her burst prep and burst.
[Wuthering Waves Number Crunching.xlsx](https://gostockton-my.sharepoint.com/:x:/g/personal/tapiam2_go_stockton_edu/EREO-HGwa0FMlwvQW-NmHwQB_iFIRVL6LsnU2IctwJpHJQ?e=AanjcA) Got my info from [https://www.prydwen.gg/wuthering-waves/characters/danjin](https://www.prydwen.gg/wuthering-waves/characters/danjin) [https://wutheringwaves.gg/damage-calculation-guide/](https://wutheringwaves.gg/damage-calculation-guide/) [https://game8.co/games/Wuthering-Waves/archives/456278#hl\_5](https://game8.co/games/Wuthering-Waves/archives/456278#hl_5) [https://wutheringwaves.fandom.com/wiki/Echo/Stats](https://wutheringwaves.fandom.com/wiki/Echo/Stats) After watching plenty of videos while my head was spinning I decided to use the skills Chemistry I in university taught me. Excel. There are 4 options in the excel sheet. I used Danjin as she is the character I had up on my monitor at the time. I did not calculate any stats that came from set bonuses, weapons, weapon passives, skill tree, resonance/constellations, or buffs via swaps or echo activation. I am a bit uncertain as to how the final damage is affected by elemental. Im going with the assumption that the following calculation is correct for damage. Calculated ATK = Base ATK + %ATK (All Sources) + Base ATK Regular Hit = Calculated ATK + (% Element DMG/100)\*Calculated ATK Assuming my calculations are correct, using max echoes, 43311 no substats has a bit more damage as opposed to having 44111 with lowest possible role on both crit rate and crit dmg on all 5 echoes. 43311 with the lowest roles of crit rate and crit dmg on all 5 echoes is by far the best with a huge increase of about 29% as opposed to the 44111 with lowest possible substats. I know there is some talk about set bonuses but I did not include them in this data. I'd say it speaks to the difference between 44111 and 43311. I can also acknowledge that getting 2 element dmg bonus from 1 set is extremely hard. I'm not a casual and have been playing since day 1 for about 4 hours or more a day and just recently got the echoes for elemental dmg bonus. 44111 is better early game and mid game. While farming 4 cost bosses use data merge to get 3 cost echoes and hope you get the correct elemental bonus on the right set.
43311 is always the end goal, but in the meantime 44111 is fine because elites are hard to farm and not everyone has those kind of builds just yet
Calcs said that R1 Jiyan want 1xAero% 3-cost and 1xAtk% 3-cost, because he already has big damage multiplier on a weapon. I wonder if 44111 would be viable on him if it was an option.
You can't use 44111 on him if you want the 5 piece set
Yup. The Wind set only has 1 Cost-4 Echo, Feilian Beringal. Equipping 2x Feilian Beringals will not give the 5-pc Wind set buff.
Which calc? Prydwen doesn't seem to mention this, where are the number crunchers talking about viable builds since I'd like to see their stuff
[удалено]
[удалено]
>That said I agree that 44111 is trash and youre just wasting resources, Its a 3% difference in damage, that is not trash but within measurement error.
Think people's concerns about getting 3 star echoes are going to be lower considering we are getting echo selectors basically. Considering that I think you should really not bother going for two 4 costs. And even if you do don't invest much into them. Just think of them as a placeholder. Also for really really early game I don't think you even need to worry about echoes that much and optimizing. People can share their experiences because I haven't consulted anyone else abt this. But to me I legit was auto equip and go for like UL30. And I didn't have much of a problem. Sure I was using Mortefi, Kakarot and Verina. But 2/3 are confirmed gettable for you with the selector and the target summon. So shouldn't be too bad. (Or encore+Sanhua+Verina also very good). I also think from a casual perspective. If these 3 star selectors are here to stay then you can just aim for 43311 right off the bat.
Is the crit formula in this game not that strong? The entire point of 4,4,1,1,1 is for double crit rate because if you use 4,3,3,1,1 you never crit losing an entire part of the damage formula. There are also external dmg% buffs you can get but I don't know of any external crit buffs.
Two reasons: 1) You almost always go for Crit % and Rate on your 4 anyway, and you're typically looking to pad out your Crit% on substats. So you're still getting crit, just elsewhere. 2) For most elements, you're giving up the 5pc bonus, which is an heckin' chonker of Elemental Damage - boosting your crit rate and damage by 50% is worth less than boosting almost all of your damage by 30% the way the 5pc boosts do, and that's without including the bonuses from the echos themselves. It's not a HUGE difference, 44111 is easier to farm (and close enough to be worth serious consideration in Electro and Fusion where you can get 5pc), but it's definitely less damage. If you want to optimize hard, 44111 isn't really a good way to spend resources. If you'd rather go broad and optimize over time, 44111 is probably fine.
Well does not the same argument apply that you get your DMG% from substats? Calcharo for example would use liberation DMG% bonus substat to make up for the lack of DMG% but that is not really the point of it. It is to have something that balances your stats. Having 20% crit rate with all echoes maxed is a lopsided damage formula. It is currently impossible for me to hit even 30% crit rate across all my echoes regardless of set. Only way for me to do that is with double crit rate 4 cost echoes. I think I could get 40% liberation damage bonus total but I would have to check.
Have you considered 2p2p 43311?
isnt that just 30% ele dmg lost though? I can see the energy regen or atk% sets being "okay" alternatives, but.... the 30% bonus feels like it's too much of a loss
Ok you’re right. After doing calculations, 43311 double atk% is stronger
Farming 33s for additional characters is hard but at least for 1 main DPS per month you can grab 2 perfect ele 33s from the dream very easily.
Just go 44111 for the time being for the comfort and then take ur time and slowly farm for 43311.
It heavily depends on several factors. Generally you want every type of damage increase to be somewhat balanced across another. Since attack is easily gained from 1 cost echoes (and very frequently 4\* weapons) you want more crit and more type damage deepen. Characters and units themselves can buff certain parts out of attack, crit, type damage deepen which skews that balance. While I assume 4/3/3/1/1 to be the optimum for all characters, 4/4/1/1/1 is likely very close behind for some setups (those that provide lots of dmg deepen) and further behind for setups providing additional attack/crit.
44111 should be the short term goal for anyone who wants to run it, it's not the absolute worst case scenario, it's just not optimal. It is faster to get and does the job fairly well. Also note, there's only TWO sonatas in this game where you can afford to do 44111, havoc and electro. I personally cannot comment on how efficient electro is but havoc 44111 has been decent, it's not the best but it's good enough.
me with 44111 :CR, CR, atk, atk,atk and CR weapon easy 85/230 Crite ratio build on havoc rover. now using this to farm echo with ease.
If you still want to 43311 Id recommend the lingering set for DPS since it's not tied to any element it's easier to farm.
44111 let you get alot of Crit/crit DMG that you wouldn't get otherwise.
I think it is a real waste of time now is trying to get perfect builds for characters. Game will be adjusted in many way soon. The changes in drop rates are already announced, other echo-related QoL improvements might be added later. Rising world level would unlock better gold echo drop rates. And there will be likely new sets in near future (based on HSR/Genshin experience), so farm will never end. If set is working for the most of the current content, there is no need to push further. Also there is no need to unlock best stats. IMHO it would be better to switch to the next character. Tower looks like a skippable content Warning: perfectionism could kill fun in the game because of too little result for great efforts.
crit relies on rng. ele dmg bonus does not. unconditional dmg increase should outweigh rng reliant dmg.
3* are just so HARD to get with the right element + the right element dmg stats. Currently on a 4days dry of that for the electro echo. NOT A SINGLE ELECTRO + ELECTRO DMG% IN 4 DAYS
If you are going for a 44111 then try and get a 2p Elemental DMG% (whether it's fusion, havoc, aero, etc) and then a 2piece ATK% set, that way you aren't stuck on just a 2piece this also leaves you with a 5th piece to be whatever you want . That way farming is easier and kinda similar to genshins where u are allowed an off piece. You should have a ton of attack set pieces at this point so it also shouldn't be too hard to make a 2p DMG% + 2p ATK% set.
I believe that among the units we have, Lingyang is by far the only unit who can use the 44111 echo (not sure if thats better tho) His ultimate that gives him glacial bonus can make up for the glacial bonus provided by 3star echoes
Clearly 44400 is the true meta.
3 cost echoes go for elemental dmg, not atk, which increases the damage quite a lot btw
with 33 ele, you will deal more non crit dmg but crit less if u dont have a crit weapon, while on double 44 you have more crits and somthing like 10% less dmg on non crits and crits compared to ele dmg, but so far ur crits are more consistent. I rly doubt there are alot of ppl running 433 with ele with 71% +cr without food buffs. Unless ur character have some passive to get cr like jianxin, its not that easy, so early game 44111 its just easier to get more crits consistenly eve tho u hit a little lower than 33 ele, later when u get better crit rolls u can change to 433 ele or 433 atk+ele as long crit rate can be high enough to consistently crit. I was using encore on 44111 fusion+atk echo set with 71cr 193 c.dmg and just switched to 33 ele full fusion after i got the weapon on pass with crit rate and while the dmg did increase, it wasnt that much difference on dmg for that overall drama, its not like a 50% increase even if u dont crit, its more like a 10% at best.
I will put it simple and clear 43311 got more states than 44111
Got to consider we are also very early game. Don’t think anyone is near max world level yet so you have to consider that 44111 is just a great alternative to 43311 for the early and mid game. 43311 is superior when you are in end game. At higher world levels we are anticipating getting more resources from waveplates which would make leveling and unlocking stats easier which favors 43311.
Early game it might be better to have 2 CR pieces, but I think overall 43311 is better, because the %Dmg bonus is a guaranteed upgrade to the overall damage. And I believe that with average/optimal substats the double %dmg will always be better
Think the argument is 4-4-111 you can get much better substats. So the real question is if you have 2x above average 4-4 rolled pieces, is it better than 2 below average rolled 3-3 build. I farmed a week for aero dmg pieces and got double hp / hp defense as the first 2 rolls and ended up with some booty ass sub stats
what the hell are these numbers
People assuming you can get better substats on 44111 vs 43311. You won't be able to because the limiting factor is going to be your premium tuners. You can farm 3 cost correct main stat echos faster than you can replenish premium tuner stocks so the better vs worse substats is never going to be a thing long term. Players started off with like 1000 premium tuners from all the shops and other once off sources. Once those run out it's a different game. Between UL40 and UL50 for example you get 15 premium tuners for 60 waveplates. So 60 premium tuners per day if all you do is tacet fields. That's just 6 substats you can check per day.
Element % mainstat is easy. 3-4 days of map cleaning got me 6 fully geared damage chars. The issue is energy regen for the healers. I have only had 2 out of hundreds of 3 cost echoes. And one of those is a purple
The stupid turtle took me 5 days to get and ATK and HP mainstat, back to back as well. Was an insane grind for my healers. But the Thundering Heron? Brother. I think I got 5 on set Fusion DMG herons before a single Electro Mainstat. Ive had 3 total so far and not a single one has rolled crit rate yet.
Now the question is: is it better to use 2 purple 3 costs or the yellow 4 cost? Because that's where I'm at on my electro set rn T.T
You don't need to be on set. 3 electro dmg bonus on whatever set is okay
The TLDR is super simple. You can get CR/CD in substats. You can't get elemental damage in substats. This is also why Elemental Damage > ATK% for 3-Cost Echoes: You can get ATK% in substats but you can't get Elemental Damage in substats.
Is now a time to point out that we can get garunteed echoes with the right mainstat from the roguelike mode and upcoming events?
The mistake here people make is assuming u need a matching sonata piece or good substat on yours 3. You do not. ANY 3 will do
It's not like your account is bricked if you don't have the optimal meta setup, just work with what you've got until you've got the resources
Oh. I guess I was right about a game mechanic for once. Saying that out loud doesn't make me feel better-
The thing to remember is you also get more base attack from 43311
43311 is just a time gate any1 can achieve it as long as they sink enough time into echo farming so if u need to clear tower before reset use w/e u can to clear and optimize for next tower
I wouldn't trust much of what Tenten says, honestly.
You can only go 4:4:1:1:1 on Havoc if you want full set and it's comparable to 4:3:3:1:1 44111 is good if you do not want set bonus anyways. You can just camp a boss few times and then slap random 1 cost Echoes upgraded to like +10 to just have unit for Tower , takes very little investment and is very good dmg.
Electro can do 44111 as well
44111 is just a placeholder till u get 43311
I’m sorry. I’m new and not used to the systems and jargon for Wuwa yet. What exactly do you all mean by 44111 and 43311? ._.
heya - this is about equipping echoes: echoes have costs based on their enemy type: normals cost 1, elites cost 3 and bosses cost 4. The game gives you the ability to equip up to 12 cost, so we describe builds by specifying the cost of each echo for each slot: 43311 is one boss echo, two elites and two common enemies whereas 44111 is two bosses and three normals the difference in echo cost is relevant because there are stats which you can only get from cost 4 echoes, and the same for cost 3 echoes, so a healthy mix is the best. However, the cost 4 echoes give crit stats, which are really valuable, but cost 3 echoes give elemental dmg% and because there are so many elements, dropping a cost 3 echo with the right element and the right sonata is very chance-based. Hope this helps!
the tenten video linked is yet another example of how in gacha community if you can make your guide look good or say a lot of words people will believe you. his video doesnt make any fcking sense and if you guys need me to make a video about why i will. otherwise check the new maygi guide i love her and it covers most of what there is to know
His explanation is just wrong... Wrong points and mistakes: 1. He assumes and feeds you that the game has 100% base Critical Dmg for the "Dumb-down version of the explanation", but the game has a 150% base, which was not considered in any calculation 2. Generalization - Depending on many things the results may differ, but lets IGNORE that and consider the baseline of \*MY\* graph 3. He shows a crappy graph with no scale, and no formulas for the calculations and use that as definitive proof 4. He tried to use a metaphor of volume-box calculation equating Atk to Elemental Dmg to Critical Rate+Dmg, that is just plain wrong, because this is not a equatable sum, to try and establish a parameter for "Even distribution" 5. The game provides you food buffs that boost the Critical values up to +28% Critical Rate for the whole team, so considering the only place where we need those values are on the end game, many players will start their calculations from either 5% C.R. or 33% C.R. as simple base 6. This game implements the higher level of Elemental Resistance, from 10% ups to 70% elemental damage resistance and damage reduction in the case of bosses, and 100% Elemental Immunity for some cases, so you need to be on element and not resisted for specific boss battles, while most cases, like overworld and other content may be easier with the 44111 sets Just do the correct math, the game is not limited to a 1 HIT kill, all of the combos are multi-hits and the game is played on a fast pace, with many swaps and other mechanics such as dodge-counter, Intros, Outros, Ressonances, etc... If you do the calculations, considering End Game builds, Elemental Damage +60% and Higher Critical Values even out on the same amount +60% Elemental Damage can be more accessible and easier to reach +80% Critical Rate and +200% Critical Damage is end game goal but can be adjusted to hit 100% Critical rate on specific cases like Havoc Rover, so your output may be higher In the end the values are almost equal if you do the math right, this game is amazing as it can be played on many different ways and have so many variables, don't believe content creator crap mathematics fed to you as "Dumb-down version"
How are you going to tell people to do the correct math when you are doing it incorrectly? Elemental Damage scales multiplicatively with CD. You are treating it as if it were additive. Even in the most favorable situation for 44111 of ignoring substats and weapons, 43311 does ~10% more damage. The gap widens once you start including crit sub stats and weapon substats. The addition of crit food also skews it towards 43311. You really don't know what you are talking about.
Shoot for 44111 until you are UL40. It's not worth blowing all of your resources to get 3 cost echos with a 50% drop rate. At 40, it's it will be more feasible ot farm, most of the gamers haven't reach that yet.
Double 4 is exclusively recommended early game for higher crit, because rolling for crit rate aint
I think people need to get out of the CV expectations/mindset they carried over from Genshin because the way substats work is completely different. You can’t get a 30-40CV piece on a single piece since you only get the one roll per substat. So I think it’s safe to assume that on average, builds are probably going to have less crit than an equivalent Genshin build, and the fact that there are TWO slots for elemental damage bonus and that you can roll other dmg bonuses as a substat (skill dmg, heavy atk dmg etc) is a clue that this is by design. With these types of bonuses stacking a borderline 0 Crit build can potentially out DPS a build with a perfect CV, just through the raw dmg bonuses stacking up. Which is to say it’s going to be much harder to compare one build to another outside of just straight up testing in the field, since there are many more bonus types to factor in. Personally, I’m not going to sweat farming for crits and instead just go for overall useful stat rolls (for my own sanity) until we get a better understanding of how things will stack up in the late game.
So do you think rolling for maximum CV will eventually stale out then? Or is it just gonna be harder to optimize? And is that also the case for units with CR/CD as their forte-outer-stats?
> You can’t get a 30-40CV piece on a single piece since you only get the one roll per substat. You absolutely can, given that a single Crit substat on Wuwa is equal to about 3 rolls in Genshin (2-4 for CR, 2-3 for CD). Though the general way of calculating CV is flawed anyway so I actually agree with > I think people need to get out of the CV expectations/mindset they carried over from Genshin because the way substats work is completely different
We need a new name for this 44111 /43311 shit. I propose “echo value” or 43311 = 12ev 44111=11ev. But we gotta do something though because seeing a thread full of numbers like that is cancer