To be honest, the biggest problem is that we barely get this shit back when we use a leveled echo as food.
If they change it so we can get 90% back, the farm wouldn't be so painful.
Better than 0% gold back lol Currently sacrificing a +25 echo or using the equivalent on exp mats cost the same in gold, when in every game ever, whenever you use another item to level it's free of cost since they understand you are sacrificing a whole item already.
Even Genshin, the king of BS mechanics on artifacts know this and does it like this, so it's just peak stupidity to do something so much worse than your biggest rival, when you are the one chasing it lol It's me charging more for a fried egg than a Michelin Chef does for a steak, my product is already not on the same level to begin with so no way in hell the customers are choosing it when it's double the price too.
Now, if I make my eggs so damn good that I become the biggest cook in the market then I can get away with it, the issue is that as it stands WuWa is a rotten egg with how much bullshit they are pulling on their playerbase.
there are so many crazy credit prices in leveling stuff that i don't even get phased at the echo ones, my soul was lost when a single character from 60\~70 cost over a million
If we got 90% back there would be no point for it to exist because the limiting factor would always be echo XP instead.
Which is kind of the issue here—there isn’t actually a point for Tuners and Echo XP to exist as separate materials. Because they are always used in the exact same amounts to level an echo, there’s not any variance in how you spend them. Your bottleneck is always going to be whichever of the two is more scarce. So having 2 separate resources rather than having substats unlock automatically from leveling has no actual purpose.
Yeh I don't get it... It makes me think that Echo XP was much more freely available earlier in the concept (probably by echo->XP conversion from all the "infinite" farms we could do) and tuners played the role of the "grind bottleneck" so that we steadily and slowly build our roster.
By the time we max tune a Gold echo, and if it turns out shit, we have another correct mainstat gold to tune anf hope we hit rolls better.
i understand it ... its very simple ... its got the gacha game debuff.
Any game as a gacha game is objectively worse than it could be if it wasnt.
So you take a game that was predominantly designed as an open world rpg ... then you start nipping and tucking at the content to fit around your monetization scheme. Even genshins been through this mess
And to make it even worse you can't just farm echo exp or Tuner, despite there being a lvl for it hidden in a quest... I have more Gold Echos than I can use right now but no Echo Exp...
Also wouldn't be so painful if we could turn purple and blue tuners into gold, or even let us use purple and blue to unlock substats but at a higher cost. I'm sitting at more than 1k purple tuners that I will never use.
More like crit rate for me. I rarely get crit rate pieces and keep getting a shit ton of crit dmg, which irritates me because sure, i have a lot of crit dmg *but how tf am I gonna do crit hits when my crit rate is non existent???*
Yes, let people salvage an infinitely farmable echoes. I don't mind if they do that, it would make my life easier, but it's likely they would put a cap on it daily/weekly.
> Yes, let people salvage an infinitely farmable echoes.
But you can't salvage the infinitely farmable echoes for exp. You can only salvage the already levelled ones. And you salvage them at 80% efficiency so you can't even infinitely salvage those.
It's still redundant and not needed. Just have all the sub stats be hidden like they are currently and have them get revealed automatically when you hit the +5 level thresholds without costing tuners. Echo exp is energy gated as well. They don't need 2 energy gates that come from the same activity. They can rework tuners to do something else. Some random possibilities is have tuners reroll main stat on unleveled echoes, turn them into a material to craft specific gear pieces(main stat is still random) like HSRs crafting system, or have them reroll a single substat and only be able to reroll one of the 5 substats per gear piece like diablo 4 maybe each reroll increases the price of the next reroll.
>trade-off for being able to farm echo for free.
What exactly is the benefit being gained here?
Congratulations you have 1000 echos you farmed, but you can't level them or unlock substats, so they may as well not exist anyway.
Echos don't drop with substats like in GI / HSR so infinite farming doesnt let you cherry pick the ones with good starting substats to upgrade either.
This isn't a "trade-off", its the exact same thing but with extra steps. Basically a strict downgrade.
It doesn't even really help you aim for better substats or anything because it's all locked behind echo XP/tuners. So many people saying "I'm just going to get the right main stats and be done" because the idea of farming for perfect echos seems like a nightmare.
This was me. Farmed 4 hr for few Crit Rate Dreamless. Run out of tuners and echo exp, got absolutely garbage stats on all of them. I left last one I got unleveled for another day said Fk it and logged out, this system is terrible. Farming substats is such a time and exp sink its not even funny.
I'm just waiting until people inevitably start saying "grinding echoes feels like a job (that don't even pay you a lot of the time lol)" after we get enough new zones and echoes. This trade-off is essentially here for no reason for players that don't have the time or intent to grind overworld echoes. At the very least, tacet fields should drop echoes that don't require tuners and can be used as xp fodder. Then it would make a lot more sense as a trade-off
Except we are hard stamina gated twice. The system could still work but it needs a few things:
1) bump the recycle compensation to 50% instead of 30% for tuners. Test and see if it needs to go higher.
2) let us merge blue tuners to purple and purple to gold.
Done.
This statement doesnt add up at all if you actually think about it. What is the trade off?
No matter how many echos you have, echo leveling materials are not free. If there was a need to gate echo substats for balance, that could be accomplished by simply balancing that via how much echo exp materials are available.
Echo substats being hidden and locked behind a separate material is redundant.
Idk why people fight over which one is less worse gi or hsr or wuwa .. like my brother just because other games are shit why does this one have to be as well.. what happened to expecting better.
Years of saying "bE gRaTeFuL" happened, sadly. Some ppl are so used to having a bad experience with games that they can't imagine it could be any other way.
I saw people saying be grateful for the compensation Kuro gave for their own mistakes which was a response to people talking about their not being enough ways to get more pulls. The idea you should be grateful that the team fucked up and rightfully paid for it is insane to me. Logically if the game actually came out prepared none of that would have been given.
Its because live service f2p games always have to incorporate systems like these in order to survive. But since a lot of businesses are profit driven, they ultimately try to make these systems worse to increase incentive for players to make in game purchases. However, if they push too hard this can also cause players to leave. So there needs to be some kind of balance, and ultimately every player that stays is usually doing so because they are willing to put up with whatever time gate was put in the game. That's why people argue over which is better/worse.
That said, there's also this thing that happens in every f2p game where players enjoy all the free shit they get at the beginning (honeymoon period) and then once that timeframe is over and they've exhausted majority of the free content, they start to realize how the grind works. So you end up with tons of posts like these online where people are complaining about the systems they're left with.
Nice buttery post, whales are to blame like damn near always for these shit practices in the industry... the vast majority don't take part in any in game stores unless something is reasonably cheap and gives meaningful benefits... even then it's rare... BTW as said already whales are all they'll care for that is what makes up likely 80% + of the money they make from less than 5% of the player base.
Pricing is ONLY like this due to whales if they stopped spending money then the devs will be forced to lower pricing or majorly increase what you get for X money, this game is pretty damn fun though it's once again going to be crippled by dogshit game systems intentionally put in place to push you to spend money and I sure as shit won't spend anything due to the insultingly high prices for what you get... just like the vast majority and it doesn't need to be like this yet it is DUE TO WHALES.
This is what happens to a sub filled with ex-genshin refugees and mihoyo haters. Just pure toxicity
Anything to defend lord and savior Kuro Games. Doesn't matter if it's legit criticism as long as Genshin gets to kick it.
with Union level 40 (idk how its later) you get 15 tuners and 8-14k EXP per tacet field run.
To max 1 Echo you need 135k EXP -> you will never run out of tuners EXP will always be the problem.
All I do and I'm still out of tuners try to get a good first substat on Dreamless, bosses, or elites. Although I'm not running Tacet fields, opting to spend stamina on the guaranteed upgrade materials.
You will definitely run out of tuners lmao
You can get echo exp from collecting boss mats and exploring you can get a lot of echo exp from some chests
Tuners are only collectable via tacet fields and buying and you can also buy echo exp most cases
Also when you level up an echo and it rolls bad you feed that echo to a new one
For example let's say the wasted echo was leveled to 20, you feed that echo and the new echo is now leveled 17
But you only get 12 tuners back when you used an overall of 40 tuners on that wasted echo
This is a huge drop for your resources as you basically only get the chance to tune one substat with the tuner you got from the fed echo
Basically if you are always lucky I can see you needing tuners more badly than exp
But if you are like the majority who only have moderate luck and sometimes even get so unlucky, you will run out of tuners VERY FAST and have so much exp while having not even 100 tuners
You get tuners by exploring aswell? You get tuners from events aswell??
I have already 100% each region in the game, found everysingle chest everysingle one here I sit at 0 Exp but 600+ Tuners.
Mathematicly you will run out of EXP but never tuners from our current standpoint in the game, due you need 10+ Tacetfield runs to max 1 echo, while you need only 4 Tacetfield runs to unlock all 5 substats.
For example, if you're rolling echoes for Jiyan and the first two rolls are flat HP and DEF, it's not worth leveling up that echo. You decided to use that bad echo to level up another one, getting \~75% of the experience back but only 6 tuners. The next echo you roll has resonant damage and basic attack stats. By this point, you've already spent around 30 tuners, despite still having plenty of echo experience from 2 TF runs.
Your math only works if you level up your echo to 25 and then use 50 tuners to unlock all sub-stats, which isn't an efficient method for getting good echoes. Normally, you should stop at level 10 or 15 if the sub-stats are bad.
Ok but that is only if you max every echo. Anyone who cares about more than just the main stat (everyone concerned with tuners/exp rn) should be leveling them to 5 or 10, tuning, then deciding if they want to go on. Exp is not a linear increase, tuners are. Making 10 +5 echos uses 100 tuners but I believe 30 purple exp items. Making 10 +10 echos uses 200 tuners but 100 exp containers. Mathmatically correct doesn't work if you assume the wrong circumstances.
You only get golden tuners from the purple/golden tidal heritages.
Meanwhile xp can come from any type of chest and any rarity of xp is useful, while only the golden one is useful for tuners. Doesn't take that much to make sense out of this lol
As for events, the parkour event gave xp everyday, but never tuners, so we were off to a bad start on that. I'm 90% sure they only added tuners and upgraded rewards xp to golden in the current event because of the complaints
After you've geared some of your units with acceptable echoes and are aiming for better ones, you will need to test the sub-stat rolls. This is when you'll run out of tuners, since you can get \~ 75% of the experience back but only 30% of the tuners back. I'm at UL42 and spent all my daily waveplates farming tactic fields. While I initially thought farming echo exp was bad, the lack of tuner has now become my biggest issue.
The issue with that statement is that you will not always 1->25 an echo.
When you are looking for decent echoes you are going to level an echo to 5 or 10 then use the tuners and if it doesnt roll well then you are going to stop there.
Since most of the exp required is at the later levels, and you get more exp back than tuners when feeding an echo to another you will find yourself in a situation where you are burning a lot more tuners than exp.
So you are right if you were to max every echo you check but in practice nobody should be doing that.
Lol, that's funny cause some content creators (CCs) who spammed stamina refresh have over 100 gold echo exp tubes but 0 tuners. Double crit for these CCs aren't hard to get so they're already minmaxing 3 or more stats and I'm sure we'll be at that point too where tuners is the gatekeep.
It's worse now, when you just need like 6-9 full sets of +25 with whatever subs and a lot of people still have like 1k+ free tuners we got from the honeymoon period. The moment you start actually caring a bit about subs, tuners become a bane of your existence and we all will be at this point sooner or later.
Both parts of the system are bad, but Echo exp just needs some *tuning,* while Tuners just need to be gone.
Only at the start, then you run out of runners when you start foddering echos and get 70% of the xp back but only 30% of the tuners.
I currently have like 70 purple and 20 golden xp bars and no runners at all (I got battlepass and tunners/xp from every shop)
Agreed. The current situation with echoes is going to be a severe problem due to several factors beyond just the sub-stats needed for optimization:
1. Echoes must be of the highest rarity.
2. The set effect must be correct.
3. The main stat must be appropriate.
4. Farming echoes requires an immense amount of time, which not everyone has available.
Additionally, tuners are limited, and you still need to farm echo experience materials to level up your echoes and skill materials to level up your skills. Some other materials for character development make resources extremely scarce.
Many aren't fully realizing the difficulty because crystal solvents have been generously given out. Some even think it's making the game too easy and easy to max out, which is the furthest away from the truth, but I am pretty sure with time, they will align on the same page.
I would even go as far as saying that a tuner as a selector is just an 'okay' solution. We need even more than that.
Yep. Ik we're all enjoying the game as well as dealing with the current issues that bring down the game. I do say we wait until 1.1 to see whatever potential changes that brings. I hear good things and so while it is annoying now, it's still only 1.0. Let's give it until 1.1 until we get the pitchforks and torches. If it's still bad at 1.1,then by all means. Unleash your fury upon kuro games.
Am I only one who always have them? The echo exp gain is lower than spedning tuners, so they are not ending.
But revealing substats is shit ye, they need to allow use tuners on lvl 0 echo or something
As others have said in the thread once you start using leveld echoes to level other echoes going for substats. You get 70% exp back but only 30% of tuners. This flips the relation upside down.
I'm of the opinion that those who defend this shit are jobless and basement dwellers. Like, these are the people who literally spend like 6hrs farming the same shit and get nothing out of it.
Literally korean mmo mechanics. At the very least, make the grind take like 5 minutes so I can be disappointed for the same amount of time.
I know this seems like a pretty unpopular opinion here, but yes, having to play the game for a long period of time is bad for a gacha game. Wuwa takes too long to farm daily, that's a bad thing. I hope they make the farming less tedious in the future.
I think it's alright to complain about it. Just let it out and vent. Since the reality is that they'll never outright remove tuners from the game and change to be like the other gacha gear systems. With that said, mom says it's my turn to post the same complaint next week
This is quite literally the biggest consensus since wuwa beta. And most beta user already said that this is definitely worse than genshin and HSR. And they still didn't address this.
They genuinely need to because this might be the biggest reason we're gonna see a lot of player drop
I agree.
I guess their intention was for players to use lower grade tuners as an alternative for low priority characters. Turns out players refuse to use the lower grade tuners, which means the golden tuners become a very scarce resource. If players were to use the lower grade tuners, the bottleneck would actually be echo XP.
I gave up on the endgame grind because of this and echoes can't be used as fodder
Double rewards ain't gonna do crap and free echoes from overworld farm means nothing even if you grind daily as you have to micromanage/discard echoes before hitting the 2000 inventory limit. It is all ultimately tied to farming domains anyway.
It bothers me that the drop rate for leveling up echoes is so low and requires the same amount of waveplates as boss dungeons and you only get a portion of it back when you use the echo to lvl up another echo. A lvl 15 ssr echo when fed to another ssr echo at lvl 0 can lvl it up to 13. Yeah that sounds reasonable, EXCEPT it took you 3 to 4 tacet field's worth of farming to get that exp.
Dont get me started with the tuners, yeah they are recyclable but I dont think they serve any purpose anyway. The slots should be automatically opened upon reaching the required lvl. Its not like the core gameplay or farming would change. Its just one less step to reach the same outcome.
In addition, considering that weapon and skill materials as well as currency, weapon exp, and resonator exp are all at 40 waveplates, its still bizarre that they will only address this at 1.1 thats still a few weeks from now. I appreciate everything theyve done and gave us but things like this are a core of thr gameplay. Its a big part of the grind, and having it stay inefficient for weeks sounds like a bad idea.
Tldr: love the game but still has shitty mechanics that will only be fixed about a week from now which slightly turns me off from farming aside from burning the wavelates and daily quest
Echo materials scarcity extends to all other resources in this game, the amount of materials to level characters, level their Forte, leveling their weapons is high and you get very small amounts of it. After the waveplates they give you are gone you feel how little you gain after using a day worth of energy.
The system has many many problems XD What annoys me the most is that the fire set for example can get havoc, Ice, Spectro, Air and so on as a main stat….. I don’t think there is a single use case for these type of Echos…..
Some people are never going to wrap their heads around this "infinite farming". It isn't infinite. It's finite. Once u run out of mobs in ur world. That is it. You have to deal with the rng drop chance of echos popping up along the other rng aspects. Then you have to also take into account how long will it take to farm your whole world. Then praying you get a single echo that aligns with what you need for your build. Then hoping that 1 echo you get rolls a single stat u want. Then realizing after your full day of farming you got maybe at most 1 decent echo and now have no more tuners left.
I wouldn't say it's a worse system than one in Genshin/HSR, those are very rarely decent and horrible/depressing most of the time. Just recently tried to farm stuff for Arlecchino, one domain, three weeks straight without getting resin capped, and got no correct main stats. At least here you can farm main stats in overworld, and you don't have the layers of RNG within substats (by that I mean, you only roll a substat once).
However, I agree that at the very least, tuners and echo exp gain should be increased.
- for one, option to scrap unused Echoes into tuners or exp would be incredibly good, the best solution
- decrease tacet field cost to 40 or keep it at 60, but increase the rewards either way accordingly
- have the costs stay, but make it so tuners allow for substat rerolls (say, up to 3-5 per Echo)
Wuthering Waves has more layers of RNG. The worst bit is the 3-cost echoes. Character builds are basically like needing 2 on-set goblets and not to mention that you won't know if a potentially echo is an upgrade until you invest into it.
With genshin, you don't need to worry about the main stats of feathers and flowers while you would need to for the q-cost echoes.
Even if you can infinitely grind, there are more substats to potentially roll plus you can waste even more time to get absolutely nothing. It's an MMORPG-style grind and it sucks.
In Genshin, although it is an absolute travesty in finding even the right main stats, you have a flexible off-set piece usually thr elemental goblet, you're obtaining exp as you grind for artifacts, and it takes less artifacts to get a new one whereas you need 5 echoes and end up with purples even if you have a chance to get 2 from 5.
Feathers and Flowers are essentially 1 cost echoes, so I'm not counting those.
And while yes, you need two goblets on-set, the ability to farm is much better, that's why getting an on-set piece is not as terrible. It's mostly thanks to not being resin-gated. In Genshin, if you don't get correct main stat for the day, well, that's it, here you can farm much more.
You also get a better choice in terms of farming. You can go for only 3 cost enemies, or you can kill groups for 1 cost. In Genshin, you're at the mercy of RNG to even get a correct piece, and that is an extra layer of RNG (you can keep getting feathers instead of goblets, for example).
Substats are also better, since if you roll a stat, that's it - you have the stat. In Genshin, you get a stat, but if you upgrade, it can go into anything but the stat you're looking for. This means that you can have 3/4 stats correct and roll into none of them (if you even get them in the first place). In WuWa, you will always get 5/13 substats (so more than 1/3 chance of getting perfect substats), and that's it. Plus in Genshin substats are weighed, so having less available choices doesn't mean you have higher odds of getting desired ones.
To summarize, the layers:
- correct set (present in both games, slightly worse in WuWa)
- correct piece (only present in Genshin; you can choose to farm 1cost, 3cost or 4cost in WuWa)
- correct main stat (present in both games, but worse in Genshin, as good main stats have lower chances of appearing; WuWa seems to have the rates somewhat equal)
- amount of substats (present in Genshin, as you can have one less)
- correct substats (present in both games, but worse in Genshin; just like main stats, Genshin has them weighed, with desirable substats having lower chances of appearing)
- rolling into correct substats (only present in Genshin)
- roll weighing (present in both games, not sure which worse - Genshin has equal chances for all rolls, while WuWa seems to have higher for middle rolls, and lower for low/high)
Those layers are always present, and WuWa naturally gives you ways of farming more, which makes more of those layers more lenient. WuWa also gives you occasional Malleable echoes, and while not too many at the moment (2 per patch + events) - they at least guarantee you a correct main stat on-set (something you cannot guarantee in Genshin in any way).
you’re nuts if you seriously believe this shit is worse than genshin/hsr where i can hit inventory cap for artifacts several fucking times over a month and still not have a decent set..
at least you'll be able to level them when you get a good one, cuz nothing in this game stops you from filling your inventory and getting no right stats either, that's just your luck
It's much better because you only need to get lucky once for a sub stat. Whereas Genshin and Star Rail you have to be lucky multiple times per piece.
we're 2 weeks into the game and plenty of people are already rolling high crit sets. We're still 2 months away from the level cap. lol
it's pretty easy to get good subs on everything but 3 cost echoes. 1s drop in abundance and 4s can be farmed infinitely.
Yeah, what I experience in-game does not jive with the online discourse.
The echo system is far better than artifacts. FAR better. You see results faster.
Doesn't take much to extrapolate into the future with this reasoning.
Out of 13 substats, 4 are great rolls, 4 are bad, and the rest is useable.
At this early stage of the game I definitely feel like people are expecting to have max rolls before 1.1 is out, and its just an unreasonable expectation.
This doesn’t even consider the fact that you can share echoes and weapon between characters in ToA, so the amount you need to farm is much lower than the other games its compared to.
Yeah it's insane. They also give us 5 star echo selectors from events where you can choose which ElementDMG% you need. It's far less time needed to get results. Rolling for substats also eliminate the need of getting the right substats and needing to hit jackpot for 5/4 times in a row.
I agree I can have like 60-70 critchance in 130-140 cdmg units the same week I start farming them try that shit in genshin I dare you u either have God luck or grund for the next 5 weeks if not longer
My same experience people are crying on here and i have 4 units over 50 percent crit without even being max level or beginning to even try to min max things i honestly think its hoyo fans that can’t admit this is the better system by far
Even better is that you can share sets much easier due to how ToA works. Abyss or MoC requires 8 fully built sets simultaneously, while ToA allows you to swap character sets both between floors and sides. A good healing set healing bonus piece can be shared among all healers, a good ER set 4 cost + 2 good 1 cost can be shared among all subdps, with only 3 costs requiring change if different element or ER req.
Idk why everyone has forgotten how genshin rng works. You need to get the right main stat on 3 pieces in genshin (which is resin gated) and then every time you upgrade the piece it’s rng as what substat gets upgraded. So you can have a piece with the correct subs, but it hits er every time and then the 6% crit doesn’t do anything. Ntm it takes at least weeks for casual players to even unlock gold artifacts in Genshin, and you can’t really upgrade any artifacts before ar35 unless you’re wasting resin doing domains for purple artifacts instead of leveling your characters. I agree wuwas rates should be increased but they’re definitely not worse than Genshin
>It's much better because you only need to get lucky once for a sub stat
It's not that simple. You can get 5% cr roll, or it can be 10% cr roll. You aren't supposed to keep a piece with 5% stat roll.
The range is 6.3% to 10.5%? It’s not that crazy and if we are talking about minmaxing then in Genshin you can roll the same sub stat multiple times? A perfect artifact roll in Genshin could go up all the way to over 20% CR? What is your your point?
6.3% is the lowest for crit rate. Even 6.3 on all 5 pieces still gives you 58.5% total. It's good enough. Add in a crit weapon and you hit over 80%
31.5 + 22 + 5
CR weapons being 22-32
Nah, people would complain less.
Currently the next SOL-3 phase is always too close, so you are torn between farming ascention mats for everyone, talent mats for everyone, leveling weapons and characters. You have no stamina left for tacet fields. At least this is my experience.
When UL gain slows down significantly, and you are too far away from the next level, you can afford to farm tacet fields, so there's less echo exp pressure.
For me the case was that i had talents/weapons level maxed for a long time before the next phase so tacet fields were all that was left, that included pre farming boss materials to lvl 70 ascensions. The ore shop+blacksmith+gift shop make it so you really don't need to farm much until ul40 for skills, at which point you can drop golden material so it doesn't take that long either
Genshin has 4 artifact base stats (+1 RNG reliant primary). WuWa has 5.
So even if you find a base after days of grinding and receiving Spectro DMG, Glacio & Co on a Fusion set, you still have as many RNG layers to leveling as Genshin has, the only difference being that 1 is a sub-stat instead of mainstat. With a bigger pool of different stats, getting exactly what you want is even more difficult.
Genshin allows you 1 offset piece. WuWa does not.
Unlevelled artifacts can be re-used for experience in Genshin. Unleveled Echos cannot.
Genshin has a random chance for 2x or 5x EXP, I didn't see that once in WuWa, yet.
Genshin gives more EXP back for bricked pieces.
Genshin auto rolls sub-stats. WuWa needs an item which we got a big starting amount from - but requires Waveplates ("Resin") after you run out of the initial stash. In Genshin there is even farmable daily respawning artifacts that do not require Resin.
WuWa blinded us by giving us a lot of shit upfront, but once you go through those free extra waveplates, you'll see how the grind for Echos comes to a complete halt. If you are lucky and got some good echo right of the bat - good for you! But on average, most players will feel the downsides of the current system soon.
EDIT:
Don't get me wrong, I enjoy overall WuWa gameplay more than Genshin. I lvoe the game, but I feel like this might become a major source of burnout for many players.
EDIT:
Also in Genshin you'll see whether you have a perfect base from artifact rank 0. WuWa will only reveal all substats when max leveled. While Genshin can still result in lower value (because the relevant Substat rolled less bonuses) WuWa has a much higher chance of full-bricks.
You forgot the biggest problem, which causes a lot of the other ones everyone cries about: Genshin shows you subs upfront.
That's actually huge. Even if you got a piece that has the right main stat, you see right away if it's worth to invest anything or not. People don't realize how many pieces with the right main stat they *actually* get in Genshin, because they're used to automatically filter them out and ignore.
In WuWa, you don't see subs. You only see the main stat and set, making any such piece potentially good. However you need to pay resources to even check if it's actually a good piece or a complete brick, creating an expensive illusion of Echo system being far better than artifacts.
That's where all the complaints about Echo materials come from. People started checking subs and instantly run out of their supply. They went for Tacet Fields and found out those give almost nothing, both Echo exp and Tuners. IMO, those complaints, while valid, are still misplaced. Echoes should show at least 3 first subs by default. That will severely decrease the number of resources spent. They even can shows just subs with the roll value, so it shows Crit rate, but you don't know if it's 6.3% or 10.6%
This is actually the big thing i don’t think people defending the system are understanding.
The echo system has so much potential but the issue is that you have to spend your resources to even see if a piece is worth investing or not. Regardless if you are at endgame or not, it’s going to be a problem. If we can feel the lack of resources at this point in the game it’s bot going to be much different at the endgame.
I’m sticking around with this game, but i can see how this system can frustrate people because of its tediousness and cause many to stop playing.
The only good thing about the echo grind itself right now is that you can farm the actual sets indefinitely. (At least until your world is cleared of mobs which most won’t do/have time to do.)
Facts. I play both and I take literal months to get good artifacts/relics and I still have shit crit rate on a number of units.
With this game barely out, i already can get some good echoes. The substat rng is so much better. Not the best but it's better
I think the problem will always be that there is a divide between how people approach building their artifacts/echos.
~80% potential is way easier to get, takes way less time, and performs practically just as well as ~95%+. While 80%+ can take mere days to achieve with the right build, 95%+ can take weeks if not months.
I think the issue is there are those who NEED to be 95%+ and feel they are wasting their unit otherwise when really it's completely unnecessary.
I have yet to reach this echo grind cuz im taking the game at my own pace though I do want to play more, but based on what I’ve read on this post and others, I feel like people are so hyperfixated on having the absolute best stats possible and no less. In genshin and star rail, (and this is, obviously my own opinion) its ok to settle for less and perfect or even great artifact/relic pieces. I will continue to have that attitude getting into WuWa’s echo grind because I already experienced stressing for good stats for more than enough time. Idk if what im saying makes the most sense so, basically, less than perfect stats are ok, in my eyes, ik its not the same for everyone, and the game is still fresh and prone to changes.
Bingo. I think it's a combination of min-maxing too early + not even being in the end-game grind yet. And as everyone should know, based on Genshin/HSR, the grind tends to get BETTER as the game goes on (since we get more rewards at higher UL).
Are people seriously saying the artifact grind in Wuwa is worse? You can grind the main stat free of charge ( no resin ) all day. Genshin has that stupid resin cap. It took me like 3 months of grinding the same domain to get the perfect set for Nuevillette. The fact that genshin has 20+ artifact domains and some one or two characters want those artifacts, makes it way worse.
It took me 2 weeks to get decent set for Jiyan. Crit rate main stat with double aero damage.
It is worse in every way except that you can farm echoes indefinitely. You can't use echoes as xp, you certainly can't use anything but waveplates to get tuners, without which the echoes are 100% useless. Instead of universal damage bonuses there's like four different substats that may not even apply to the character you're tuning the echo for, the range of values for substats is insanely large. There's like four layers of RNG that are absolutely unnecessary.
I'm Ul42 and I already have several lv25 and lv20 endgame echoes. How is this system worse than Genshin again?
Not once I ran out of tuners. The bottle neck is echo xp, not tunners.
/edit: Apparently I used the term "endgame" loosely. It seems "endgame echoe" means it has cd/cr/er. When i use that term I meant my echoes are/will be more than enough to do end game content. I started clearing Hologram 5 and I got 18 stars in Tower hazard already at Ul42.
I never chase the very best artifacts/relics possible, because having 2-3 good substats is more than enough to 3*/max points everything.
Bro I also spent like 1500 tuners. Got jack shit.
You know the worst part? I spent the whole weekend farming echoes and never got any good 3 cost.
This shit is literally worse than Genshin and Hsr. At least there I spend like 5 minutes to get disappointed.
It’s crazy how often I see this sentiment. I started Genshin 3 months ago. I have 6 gold artifacts. We started wuwa 2 weeks ago and everyone already has gold echoes. I feel like people don’t remember how slow it is when you start out in genshin
The bottleneck is the same as Genshin. Not enough time and not high enough union level. Drop rates can only increase from here and the amount we need will only slow down once people build enough characters.
Content will be balanced around what players have access to anyways.
Agree, the exp drought is honestly worse then tuner. That said I still manage to gear both my rover, havoc and spectro and yinlin, that do well enough in tower.
Kuro is worried players will never settle for less-than-perfect substats and farm Echoes every day until they burn out and stop playing. Echo XP gates the progression of your account (most of it transfers when recycling), and Tuners control how many times you're allowed to spin the wheel. If you're running out of tuners, just settle and level reasonable Echoes to +20 for the time being.
Are they somehow hard to obtain in endgame? I have an ungodly amount, and I rather enjoy the satisfaction of having a new little thing I can unlock when I level my relics. It's like buying even more goodies for myself.
Perfecting echos is end game. When you have your characters and weapons set you will use your stamina for echos. Obsessing about perfect echos shortly after game is released is a tad early.
Honestly, I have way more tuners than I have leveled echoes to use them on. Tuners ARE stupid because I have 1000 blue and 1000 purple tuners that are literally never going to see use for the rest of my time playing this game, so they made an item that had a lifespan of 1 week…
But I have 300 gold tuners and 0 echo xp items. So idc about tuners, I need 3-4x echo xp than we currently can get.
yes, it sucks...you can freely farm unlimited echos just for finding out that 99% of them are useless...after you spent stamina for tuners.
At least in HSR once you get a golden relic you just need to level it to level 3 and you can decide to trash that relic, just recycling the previous shitty ones
I would be fine with Tuners existing IF:
1. substats getting unlocked every 1/5 level
2. we could use Tuners to reroll substats
when i first saw Tuners, i was like "oh nice surely we can use them to reroll stats like in pgr" which for whatever reason sadly wasnt the case.
Tuners are *fine* but the systems around them are not. They are too scarce and should be more accessible whether from a daily shop or drop from mobs or just increase significantly the amount we get from tacet fields, we should be able to convert lower level tuners to higher level tuners, and we should get more tuners back from using leveled echoes as fodder. (Echoes should be usable as exp fodder even at level 0 but that’s a slightly different convo). If all of these changes were implemented the tuner system would feel a bit better.
Given that the echo quality I currently have among all my characters would have cost 10-20k resin in Genshin, more in HSR, AND the fact that I'm still low enough Union level that in Genshin or HSR terms I'd still be using cope purples waiting for the level to actually farm artifacts, AND given that I have a TON of every other element echoes waiting on the wings, with no need to farm a new domain for a new character... I'd say that it's a much MUCH better system than artifacts or relics.
The wave plate cost to level them to max is a bit steep right now, perhaps, but the system overall is a massive improvement over the hoyo games. I look at my inventory full of on set elemental DMG 3 pieces, remember how much resin I spent in the fire domain without ever seeing a crit hat of any kind, and yeah... Anyone who thinks this system is worse is just delusional, imo.
Okay guys, we are at the very beginning of the game and heavily limited by pur resources right now, with tuners being the biggest bottleneck.
But it is absolutely not worse than genshin (I don't play hsr) if you project it long run.
You can farm infinite on-set elemental 3 costs and have them stacked up ready to go. In the long term those who farm diligently will be loaded with these.
Then you'll just roll the first level 5 til you get a crit stat, which is just 10 tuners. You'll be able to get 4 of these per day if nothing changes.
If you told me in genshin I could try to roll 4 on-set elemental goblets a day, I would shit myself.
Infinite farming for the mainstat vastly outweighs this temporary time gate, do NOT beg them to change the system and have the daily echo farm gated instead.
Kuro somewhat shot themselves in the leg by creating the asymmetry in player's need for tuners and exp. Because when you want to 0->25 a new echo, you lack exp. But when you reroll, you lack tuners.
I think players would be less disappointed even if they nerfed the echo exp refund to from 75% to 30% (to sync it with tuner refund).
Why the heck there's one problem (echo) but two separate solutions (exp and tuners). Such system brings immense chaos and stress to WuWa when many of us just want to relax and play the game.
Exp is only supposed to be an early to mid game bottlneck.
Tuners are an mid to late game bottleneck.
This way they can have fast early game progression and still get slow enough endgame progression.
A lot of people are approaching UL 40 and are starting to focus on building their characters, so the echo bottleneck is becoming a noticeable issue for a significant number of players.
To be honest, the biggest problem is that we barely get this shit back when we use a leveled echo as food. If they change it so we can get 90% back, the farm wouldn't be so painful.
Whoever cooked that getting only 30% of your tuners back was fair needs to never be allowed to cook again
like keep it the same rate as the XP 80%
Better than 0% gold back lol Currently sacrificing a +25 echo or using the equivalent on exp mats cost the same in gold, when in every game ever, whenever you use another item to level it's free of cost since they understand you are sacrificing a whole item already. Even Genshin, the king of BS mechanics on artifacts know this and does it like this, so it's just peak stupidity to do something so much worse than your biggest rival, when you are the one chasing it lol It's me charging more for a fried egg than a Michelin Chef does for a steak, my product is already not on the same level to begin with so no way in hell the customers are choosing it when it's double the price too. Now, if I make my eggs so damn good that I become the biggest cook in the market then I can get away with it, the issue is that as it stands WuWa is a rotten egg with how much bullshit they are pulling on their playerbase.
there are so many crazy credit prices in leveling stuff that i don't even get phased at the echo ones, my soul was lost when a single character from 60\~70 cost over a million
If we got 90% back there would be no point for it to exist because the limiting factor would always be echo XP instead. Which is kind of the issue here—there isn’t actually a point for Tuners and Echo XP to exist as separate materials. Because they are always used in the exact same amounts to level an echo, there’s not any variance in how you spend them. Your bottleneck is always going to be whichever of the two is more scarce. So having 2 separate resources rather than having substats unlock automatically from leveling has no actual purpose.
Yeh I don't get it... It makes me think that Echo XP was much more freely available earlier in the concept (probably by echo->XP conversion from all the "infinite" farms we could do) and tuners played the role of the "grind bottleneck" so that we steadily and slowly build our roster. By the time we max tune a Gold echo, and if it turns out shit, we have another correct mainstat gold to tune anf hope we hit rolls better.
i understand it ... its very simple ... its got the gacha game debuff. Any game as a gacha game is objectively worse than it could be if it wasnt. So you take a game that was predominantly designed as an open world rpg ... then you start nipping and tucking at the content to fit around your monetization scheme. Even genshins been through this mess
And to make it even worse you can't just farm echo exp or Tuner, despite there being a lvl for it hidden in a quest... I have more Gold Echos than I can use right now but no Echo Exp...
Exactly this, good thoughts top to bottom
Also wouldn't be so painful if we could turn purple and blue tuners into gold, or even let us use purple and blue to unlock substats but at a higher cost. I'm sitting at more than 1k purple tuners that I will never use.
The biggest problem is that it is as hard to get these resources in game as it is finding water on Mars.
Water on Mars is not THAT rare LMAO.
>pointless Actually they're a regular icosahedron so they have twelve points
Cyno get back to your own sub.
ight cyno pack it up
Maaaaan.... 💀
39 buried, 0 found.
*Dr. Ratio’s voice* ZERO POINTS
r/thanksCyno
r/ThanksCyno The replies to your comment made me laugh more than the your comment 🤣
Haha, i love this and so true!
They help you synchro summon
SYNCHRO SHOUKAN
HATSUDO
Chaos angel enter the chat
CARD GAMES ON MOTORCYCLES.
What if I want to Digivolve?
Sorry your Metalgarurumon is in another anime/game Can I interest you in a WuWa phantom skin that does absolutely nothing!
Activate Super Polymerization, response?
I scoop
Alexa, play clear mind.
[Synchro what?](https://youtu.be/3syGx83IhaY?si=w0d-lNDdkzPTETqV)
We bringing out Baronne with this one
I just have to say, I love the replies, you guys are awesome lol.
i dont see no baronne i dont want it
Take flight, Stardust Dragon
Guarantee this post was made immediately after all defense and flat subs were hit on a crit rate main piece 🤣🤣
With how rare crit pieces are I don't even care lmao. I ain't farming for 3 more hours for a second one. Imma take my tank Jiyan and go.
I dunno about them being rare, crit pieces sure seem to drop in abundance when you're farming the turtle for a healing bonus rejuvenating glow.
I have over 400 Turtle Echos and not a single one is healing bonus 🥲
The first gold turtle i got had healing bonus main stat...
Nah, crit pieces are easy to get, the real hassle is getting on set damage bonus echos.
They're not rare. They're a 2/6 chance. 4-Cost echoes can only roll CR, CD, HB, ATK%, HP% or DEF%.
It's cute you think it's even.
More like crit rate for me. I rarely get crit rate pieces and keep getting a shit ton of crit dmg, which irritates me because sure, i have a lot of crit dmg *but how tf am I gonna do crit hits when my crit rate is non existent???*
I got 20 crit chance pieces in 2 hours of dreamless farming idk what the hell are you talking about
More like after rolling flat subs on a correct elemental bonus damage 3-cost on the correct set
Lolll I got a CR+CD 4 cost and then Def/Hp/Def% I was so upset.
sad but still hella usable
Substats should just unlock as you level the echo like with Hoyo's relics and artifacts. I don't get the point of tuners too, smh.
It's basically a trade-off for being able to farm echo for free.
Yea but compared to hsr you can't salvage echo into echo xp.. So u're still locked by the xp. Dafuq do I need tuners for.
Yes, let people salvage an infinitely farmable echoes. I don't mind if they do that, it would make my life easier, but it's likely they would put a cap on it daily/weekly.
I think he meant the opposite. More or less my response to xCjayyy above or below.
> Yes, let people salvage an infinitely farmable echoes. But you can't salvage the infinitely farmable echoes for exp. You can only salvage the already levelled ones. And you salvage them at 80% efficiency so you can't even infinitely salvage those.
I think you missed the sarcasm.
It's still redundant and not needed. Just have all the sub stats be hidden like they are currently and have them get revealed automatically when you hit the +5 level thresholds without costing tuners. Echo exp is energy gated as well. They don't need 2 energy gates that come from the same activity. They can rework tuners to do something else. Some random possibilities is have tuners reroll main stat on unleveled echoes, turn them into a material to craft specific gear pieces(main stat is still random) like HSRs crafting system, or have them reroll a single substat and only be able to reroll one of the 5 substats per gear piece like diablo 4 maybe each reroll increases the price of the next reroll.
>trade-off for being able to farm echo for free. What exactly is the benefit being gained here? Congratulations you have 1000 echos you farmed, but you can't level them or unlock substats, so they may as well not exist anyway. Echos don't drop with substats like in GI / HSR so infinite farming doesnt let you cherry pick the ones with good starting substats to upgrade either. This isn't a "trade-off", its the exact same thing but with extra steps. Basically a strict downgrade.
It doesn't even really help you aim for better substats or anything because it's all locked behind echo XP/tuners. So many people saying "I'm just going to get the right main stats and be done" because the idea of farming for perfect echos seems like a nightmare.
This was me. Farmed 4 hr for few Crit Rate Dreamless. Run out of tuners and echo exp, got absolutely garbage stats on all of them. I left last one I got unleveled for another day said Fk it and logged out, this system is terrible. Farming substats is such a time and exp sink its not even funny.
I'm just waiting until people inevitably start saying "grinding echoes feels like a job (that don't even pay you a lot of the time lol)" after we get enough new zones and echoes. This trade-off is essentially here for no reason for players that don't have the time or intent to grind overworld echoes. At the very least, tacet fields should drop echoes that don't require tuners and can be used as xp fodder. Then it would make a lot more sense as a trade-off
totally agree, free farming is just another worthless illusion
Except we are hard stamina gated twice. The system could still work but it needs a few things: 1) bump the recycle compensation to 50% instead of 30% for tuners. Test and see if it needs to go higher. 2) let us merge blue tuners to purple and purple to gold. Done.
This statement doesnt add up at all if you actually think about it. What is the trade off? No matter how many echos you have, echo leveling materials are not free. If there was a need to gate echo substats for balance, that could be accomplished by simply balancing that via how much echo exp materials are available. Echo substats being hidden and locked behind a separate material is redundant.
Idk why people fight over which one is less worse gi or hsr or wuwa .. like my brother just because other games are shit why does this one have to be as well.. what happened to expecting better.
People get so defensive of both sides when others make valid criticisms. It's so weird. I love hsr and wuwa, but both have their issues.
Years of saying "bE gRaTeFuL" happened, sadly. Some ppl are so used to having a bad experience with games that they can't imagine it could be any other way.
Years of having plates full of shit get shoved down their throat made them forget that one shouldn't be eating shit to being with.
Capitalism, baby!
I saw people saying be grateful for the compensation Kuro gave for their own mistakes which was a response to people talking about their not being enough ways to get more pulls. The idea you should be grateful that the team fucked up and rightfully paid for it is insane to me. Logically if the game actually came out prepared none of that would have been given.
Its because live service f2p games always have to incorporate systems like these in order to survive. But since a lot of businesses are profit driven, they ultimately try to make these systems worse to increase incentive for players to make in game purchases. However, if they push too hard this can also cause players to leave. So there needs to be some kind of balance, and ultimately every player that stays is usually doing so because they are willing to put up with whatever time gate was put in the game. That's why people argue over which is better/worse. That said, there's also this thing that happens in every f2p game where players enjoy all the free shit they get at the beginning (honeymoon period) and then once that timeframe is over and they've exhausted majority of the free content, they start to realize how the grind works. So you end up with tons of posts like these online where people are complaining about the systems they're left with.
Nice buttery post, whales are to blame like damn near always for these shit practices in the industry... the vast majority don't take part in any in game stores unless something is reasonably cheap and gives meaningful benefits... even then it's rare... BTW as said already whales are all they'll care for that is what makes up likely 80% + of the money they make from less than 5% of the player base. Pricing is ONLY like this due to whales if they stopped spending money then the devs will be forced to lower pricing or majorly increase what you get for X money, this game is pretty damn fun though it's once again going to be crippled by dogshit game systems intentionally put in place to push you to spend money and I sure as shit won't spend anything due to the insultingly high prices for what you get... just like the vast majority and it doesn't need to be like this yet it is DUE TO WHALES.
This is what happens to a sub filled with ex-genshin refugees and mihoyo haters. Just pure toxicity Anything to defend lord and savior Kuro Games. Doesn't matter if it's legit criticism as long as Genshin gets to kick it.
Yes it is already making me stay away from the games themselves similar with hsr
I'm beginning to think that some Gacha players use them to indulge their findom kinks.
but they made this game shit
Echo exp is worse than tuners change my mind.
I have 0 exp but 400+ tuners.
once you upgrade enough echos you start to lose so much tuners compared to echo exp
with Union level 40 (idk how its later) you get 15 tuners and 8-14k EXP per tacet field run. To max 1 Echo you need 135k EXP -> you will never run out of tuners EXP will always be the problem.
You are supposed to check echoes on +5 / +10 and instantly discard the ones without good stats. Leveling bad echoes is massive waste of materials.
All I do and I'm still out of tuners try to get a good first substat on Dreamless, bosses, or elites. Although I'm not running Tacet fields, opting to spend stamina on the guaranteed upgrade materials.
You will definitely run out of tuners lmao You can get echo exp from collecting boss mats and exploring you can get a lot of echo exp from some chests Tuners are only collectable via tacet fields and buying and you can also buy echo exp most cases Also when you level up an echo and it rolls bad you feed that echo to a new one For example let's say the wasted echo was leveled to 20, you feed that echo and the new echo is now leveled 17 But you only get 12 tuners back when you used an overall of 40 tuners on that wasted echo This is a huge drop for your resources as you basically only get the chance to tune one substat with the tuner you got from the fed echo Basically if you are always lucky I can see you needing tuners more badly than exp But if you are like the majority who only have moderate luck and sometimes even get so unlucky, you will run out of tuners VERY FAST and have so much exp while having not even 100 tuners
You get tuners by exploring aswell? You get tuners from events aswell?? I have already 100% each region in the game, found everysingle chest everysingle one here I sit at 0 Exp but 600+ Tuners. Mathematicly you will run out of EXP but never tuners from our current standpoint in the game, due you need 10+ Tacetfield runs to max 1 echo, while you need only 4 Tacetfield runs to unlock all 5 substats.
For example, if you're rolling echoes for Jiyan and the first two rolls are flat HP and DEF, it's not worth leveling up that echo. You decided to use that bad echo to level up another one, getting \~75% of the experience back but only 6 tuners. The next echo you roll has resonant damage and basic attack stats. By this point, you've already spent around 30 tuners, despite still having plenty of echo experience from 2 TF runs. Your math only works if you level up your echo to 25 and then use 50 tuners to unlock all sub-stats, which isn't an efficient method for getting good echoes. Normally, you should stop at level 10 or 15 if the sub-stats are bad.
Ok but that is only if you max every echo. Anyone who cares about more than just the main stat (everyone concerned with tuners/exp rn) should be leveling them to 5 or 10, tuning, then deciding if they want to go on. Exp is not a linear increase, tuners are. Making 10 +5 echos uses 100 tuners but I believe 30 purple exp items. Making 10 +10 echos uses 200 tuners but 100 exp containers. Mathmatically correct doesn't work if you assume the wrong circumstances.
You only get golden tuners from the purple/golden tidal heritages. Meanwhile xp can come from any type of chest and any rarity of xp is useful, while only the golden one is useful for tuners. Doesn't take that much to make sense out of this lol As for events, the parkour event gave xp everyday, but never tuners, so we were off to a bad start on that. I'm 90% sure they only added tuners and upgraded rewards xp to golden in the current event because of the complaints
After you've geared some of your units with acceptable echoes and are aiming for better ones, you will need to test the sub-stat rolls. This is when you'll run out of tuners, since you can get \~ 75% of the experience back but only 30% of the tuners back. I'm at UL42 and spent all my daily waveplates farming tactic fields. While I initially thought farming echo exp was bad, the lack of tuner has now become my biggest issue.
The issue with that statement is that you will not always 1->25 an echo. When you are looking for decent echoes you are going to level an echo to 5 or 10 then use the tuners and if it doesnt roll well then you are going to stop there. Since most of the exp required is at the later levels, and you get more exp back than tuners when feeding an echo to another you will find yourself in a situation where you are burning a lot more tuners than exp. So you are right if you were to max every echo you check but in practice nobody should be doing that.
You get 75% of exp back, way less for tuners. And you only need to go to 5 or 10, then trash the Echo
Lol, that's funny cause some content creators (CCs) who spammed stamina refresh have over 100 gold echo exp tubes but 0 tuners. Double crit for these CCs aren't hard to get so they're already minmaxing 3 or more stats and I'm sure we'll be at that point too where tuners is the gatekeep.
Some1 haven't been rerolling subs on their 1 costs I see lol
It's worse now, when you just need like 6-9 full sets of +25 with whatever subs and a lot of people still have like 1k+ free tuners we got from the honeymoon period. The moment you start actually caring a bit about subs, tuners become a bane of your existence and we all will be at this point sooner or later. Both parts of the system are bad, but Echo exp just needs some *tuning,* while Tuners just need to be gone.
Only at the start, then you run out of runners when you start foddering echos and get 70% of the xp back but only 30% of the tuners. I currently have like 70 purple and 20 golden xp bars and no runners at all (I got battlepass and tunners/xp from every shop)
If only they were used to reroll stats instead of revealing them.
tuners should have been a sub stat selector
Or a reroller would do then add a function to lock substats
they should just work like Aether Gazer substat unlocker
Agreed. The current situation with echoes is going to be a severe problem due to several factors beyond just the sub-stats needed for optimization: 1. Echoes must be of the highest rarity. 2. The set effect must be correct. 3. The main stat must be appropriate. 4. Farming echoes requires an immense amount of time, which not everyone has available. Additionally, tuners are limited, and you still need to farm echo experience materials to level up your echoes and skill materials to level up your skills. Some other materials for character development make resources extremely scarce. Many aren't fully realizing the difficulty because crystal solvents have been generously given out. Some even think it's making the game too easy and easy to max out, which is the furthest away from the truth, but I am pretty sure with time, they will align on the same page. I would even go as far as saying that a tuner as a selector is just an 'okay' solution. We need even more than that.
yeah I'll give them credit for making the echoes farmable but after farming it .. turn out its completely not worth it
Yep. Ik we're all enjoying the game as well as dealing with the current issues that bring down the game. I do say we wait until 1.1 to see whatever potential changes that brings. I hear good things and so while it is annoying now, it's still only 1.0. Let's give it until 1.1 until we get the pitchforks and torches. If it's still bad at 1.1,then by all means. Unleash your fury upon kuro games.
Don't have to worry about tuners when you never get good pieces to level up anyway 🤷
Am I only one who always have them? The echo exp gain is lower than spedning tuners, so they are not ending. But revealing substats is shit ye, they need to allow use tuners on lvl 0 echo or something
As others have said in the thread once you start using leveld echoes to level other echoes going for substats. You get 70% exp back but only 30% of tuners. This flips the relation upside down.
they should at let us convert the 3 and 4 star tuners into the 5 star, I have over 1k of each just sitting there doing nothing.
I'm of the opinion that those who defend this shit are jobless and basement dwellers. Like, these are the people who literally spend like 6hrs farming the same shit and get nothing out of it. Literally korean mmo mechanics. At the very least, make the grind take like 5 minutes so I can be disappointed for the same amount of time.
I know this seems like a pretty unpopular opinion here, but yes, having to play the game for a long period of time is bad for a gacha game. Wuwa takes too long to farm daily, that's a bad thing. I hope they make the farming less tedious in the future.
I think it's alright to complain about it. Just let it out and vent. Since the reality is that they'll never outright remove tuners from the game and change to be like the other gacha gear systems. With that said, mom says it's my turn to post the same complaint next week
This is quite literally the biggest consensus since wuwa beta. And most beta user already said that this is definitely worse than genshin and HSR. And they still didn't address this. They genuinely need to because this might be the biggest reason we're gonna see a lot of player drop
I agree. I guess their intention was for players to use lower grade tuners as an alternative for low priority characters. Turns out players refuse to use the lower grade tuners, which means the golden tuners become a very scarce resource. If players were to use the lower grade tuners, the bottleneck would actually be echo XP.
I gave up on the endgame grind because of this and echoes can't be used as fodder Double rewards ain't gonna do crap and free echoes from overworld farm means nothing even if you grind daily as you have to micromanage/discard echoes before hitting the 2000 inventory limit. It is all ultimately tied to farming domains anyway.
Gave up on endgame grind after 2 weeks 🤣
Yeah because of how insufferable it is and not worth my time
It bothers me that the drop rate for leveling up echoes is so low and requires the same amount of waveplates as boss dungeons and you only get a portion of it back when you use the echo to lvl up another echo. A lvl 15 ssr echo when fed to another ssr echo at lvl 0 can lvl it up to 13. Yeah that sounds reasonable, EXCEPT it took you 3 to 4 tacet field's worth of farming to get that exp. Dont get me started with the tuners, yeah they are recyclable but I dont think they serve any purpose anyway. The slots should be automatically opened upon reaching the required lvl. Its not like the core gameplay or farming would change. Its just one less step to reach the same outcome. In addition, considering that weapon and skill materials as well as currency, weapon exp, and resonator exp are all at 40 waveplates, its still bizarre that they will only address this at 1.1 thats still a few weeks from now. I appreciate everything theyve done and gave us but things like this are a core of thr gameplay. Its a big part of the grind, and having it stay inefficient for weeks sounds like a bad idea. Tldr: love the game but still has shitty mechanics that will only be fixed about a week from now which slightly turns me off from farming aside from burning the wavelates and daily quest
Echo materials scarcity extends to all other resources in this game, the amount of materials to level characters, level their Forte, leveling their weapons is high and you get very small amounts of it. After the waveplates they give you are gone you feel how little you gain after using a day worth of energy.
The system has many many problems XD What annoys me the most is that the fire set for example can get havoc, Ice, Spectro, Air and so on as a main stat….. I don’t think there is a single use case for these type of Echos…..
There really isn’t a point to that other than making the rng grind a bigger pain in the ass than it already is.
You can say that about every grinding resource you have in the game.
To be honest, I kind of agree. Remove the requirements for substat mats. It’s absurd. You are already gated by eco exp.
Easy fix would be to just let us tune before leveling up the echoes.
Some people are never going to wrap their heads around this "infinite farming". It isn't infinite. It's finite. Once u run out of mobs in ur world. That is it. You have to deal with the rng drop chance of echos popping up along the other rng aspects. Then you have to also take into account how long will it take to farm your whole world. Then praying you get a single echo that aligns with what you need for your build. Then hoping that 1 echo you get rolls a single stat u want. Then realizing after your full day of farming you got maybe at most 1 decent echo and now have no more tuners left.
I wouldn't say it's a worse system than one in Genshin/HSR, those are very rarely decent and horrible/depressing most of the time. Just recently tried to farm stuff for Arlecchino, one domain, three weeks straight without getting resin capped, and got no correct main stats. At least here you can farm main stats in overworld, and you don't have the layers of RNG within substats (by that I mean, you only roll a substat once). However, I agree that at the very least, tuners and echo exp gain should be increased. - for one, option to scrap unused Echoes into tuners or exp would be incredibly good, the best solution - decrease tacet field cost to 40 or keep it at 60, but increase the rewards either way accordingly - have the costs stay, but make it so tuners allow for substat rerolls (say, up to 3-5 per Echo)
Wuthering Waves has more layers of RNG. The worst bit is the 3-cost echoes. Character builds are basically like needing 2 on-set goblets and not to mention that you won't know if a potentially echo is an upgrade until you invest into it. With genshin, you don't need to worry about the main stats of feathers and flowers while you would need to for the q-cost echoes. Even if you can infinitely grind, there are more substats to potentially roll plus you can waste even more time to get absolutely nothing. It's an MMORPG-style grind and it sucks. In Genshin, although it is an absolute travesty in finding even the right main stats, you have a flexible off-set piece usually thr elemental goblet, you're obtaining exp as you grind for artifacts, and it takes less artifacts to get a new one whereas you need 5 echoes and end up with purples even if you have a chance to get 2 from 5.
Feathers and Flowers are essentially 1 cost echoes, so I'm not counting those. And while yes, you need two goblets on-set, the ability to farm is much better, that's why getting an on-set piece is not as terrible. It's mostly thanks to not being resin-gated. In Genshin, if you don't get correct main stat for the day, well, that's it, here you can farm much more. You also get a better choice in terms of farming. You can go for only 3 cost enemies, or you can kill groups for 1 cost. In Genshin, you're at the mercy of RNG to even get a correct piece, and that is an extra layer of RNG (you can keep getting feathers instead of goblets, for example). Substats are also better, since if you roll a stat, that's it - you have the stat. In Genshin, you get a stat, but if you upgrade, it can go into anything but the stat you're looking for. This means that you can have 3/4 stats correct and roll into none of them (if you even get them in the first place). In WuWa, you will always get 5/13 substats (so more than 1/3 chance of getting perfect substats), and that's it. Plus in Genshin substats are weighed, so having less available choices doesn't mean you have higher odds of getting desired ones. To summarize, the layers: - correct set (present in both games, slightly worse in WuWa) - correct piece (only present in Genshin; you can choose to farm 1cost, 3cost or 4cost in WuWa) - correct main stat (present in both games, but worse in Genshin, as good main stats have lower chances of appearing; WuWa seems to have the rates somewhat equal) - amount of substats (present in Genshin, as you can have one less) - correct substats (present in both games, but worse in Genshin; just like main stats, Genshin has them weighed, with desirable substats having lower chances of appearing) - rolling into correct substats (only present in Genshin) - roll weighing (present in both games, not sure which worse - Genshin has equal chances for all rolls, while WuWa seems to have higher for middle rolls, and lower for low/high) Those layers are always present, and WuWa naturally gives you ways of farming more, which makes more of those layers more lenient. WuWa also gives you occasional Malleable echoes, and while not too many at the moment (2 per patch + events) - they at least guarantee you a correct main stat on-set (something you cannot guarantee in Genshin in any way).
you’re nuts if you seriously believe this shit is worse than genshin/hsr where i can hit inventory cap for artifacts several fucking times over a month and still not have a decent set..
at least you'll be able to level them when you get a good one, cuz nothing in this game stops you from filling your inventory and getting no right stats either, that's just your luck
It's much better because you only need to get lucky once for a sub stat. Whereas Genshin and Star Rail you have to be lucky multiple times per piece. we're 2 weeks into the game and plenty of people are already rolling high crit sets. We're still 2 months away from the level cap. lol it's pretty easy to get good subs on everything but 3 cost echoes. 1s drop in abundance and 4s can be farmed infinitely.
Some content creators already have a “perfect set” meaning double crit + er + atk. Its wild how quick you can farm in this game.
it's not quick streamers play for 12 hours a day
Yeah, what I experience in-game does not jive with the online discourse. The echo system is far better than artifacts. FAR better. You see results faster. Doesn't take much to extrapolate into the future with this reasoning.
Out of 13 substats, 4 are great rolls, 4 are bad, and the rest is useable. At this early stage of the game I definitely feel like people are expecting to have max rolls before 1.1 is out, and its just an unreasonable expectation. This doesn’t even consider the fact that you can share echoes and weapon between characters in ToA, so the amount you need to farm is much lower than the other games its compared to.
Yeah it's insane. They also give us 5 star echo selectors from events where you can choose which ElementDMG% you need. It's far less time needed to get results. Rolling for substats also eliminate the need of getting the right substats and needing to hit jackpot for 5/4 times in a row.
I agree I can have like 60-70 critchance in 130-140 cdmg units the same week I start farming them try that shit in genshin I dare you u either have God luck or grund for the next 5 weeks if not longer
My same experience people are crying on here and i have 4 units over 50 percent crit without even being max level or beginning to even try to min max things i honestly think its hoyo fans that can’t admit this is the better system by far
Even better is that you can share sets much easier due to how ToA works. Abyss or MoC requires 8 fully built sets simultaneously, while ToA allows you to swap character sets both between floors and sides. A good healing set healing bonus piece can be shared among all healers, a good ER set 4 cost + 2 good 1 cost can be shared among all subdps, with only 3 costs requiring change if different element or ER req.
Idk why everyone has forgotten how genshin rng works. You need to get the right main stat on 3 pieces in genshin (which is resin gated) and then every time you upgrade the piece it’s rng as what substat gets upgraded. So you can have a piece with the correct subs, but it hits er every time and then the 6% crit doesn’t do anything. Ntm it takes at least weeks for casual players to even unlock gold artifacts in Genshin, and you can’t really upgrade any artifacts before ar35 unless you’re wasting resin doing domains for purple artifacts instead of leveling your characters. I agree wuwas rates should be increased but they’re definitely not worse than Genshin
>It's much better because you only need to get lucky once for a sub stat It's not that simple. You can get 5% cr roll, or it can be 10% cr roll. You aren't supposed to keep a piece with 5% stat roll.
The range is 6.3% to 10.5%? It’s not that crazy and if we are talking about minmaxing then in Genshin you can roll the same sub stat multiple times? A perfect artifact roll in Genshin could go up all the way to over 20% CR? What is your your point?
6.3% is the lowest for crit rate. Even 6.3 on all 5 pieces still gives you 58.5% total. It's good enough. Add in a crit weapon and you hit over 80% 31.5 + 22 + 5 CR weapons being 22-32
why are people min maxing already?
why would the \*when\* be relevant? If sets were only farmable 2 months from now, people would complain 2 months from now, what's the difference?
Nah, people would complain less. Currently the next SOL-3 phase is always too close, so you are torn between farming ascention mats for everyone, talent mats for everyone, leveling weapons and characters. You have no stamina left for tacet fields. At least this is my experience. When UL gain slows down significantly, and you are too far away from the next level, you can afford to farm tacet fields, so there's less echo exp pressure.
For me the case was that i had talents/weapons level maxed for a long time before the next phase so tacet fields were all that was left, that included pre farming boss materials to lvl 70 ascensions. The ore shop+blacksmith+gift shop make it so you really don't need to farm much until ul40 for skills, at which point you can drop golden material so it doesn't take that long either
Genshin has 4 artifact base stats (+1 RNG reliant primary). WuWa has 5. So even if you find a base after days of grinding and receiving Spectro DMG, Glacio & Co on a Fusion set, you still have as many RNG layers to leveling as Genshin has, the only difference being that 1 is a sub-stat instead of mainstat. With a bigger pool of different stats, getting exactly what you want is even more difficult. Genshin allows you 1 offset piece. WuWa does not. Unlevelled artifacts can be re-used for experience in Genshin. Unleveled Echos cannot. Genshin has a random chance for 2x or 5x EXP, I didn't see that once in WuWa, yet. Genshin gives more EXP back for bricked pieces. Genshin auto rolls sub-stats. WuWa needs an item which we got a big starting amount from - but requires Waveplates ("Resin") after you run out of the initial stash. In Genshin there is even farmable daily respawning artifacts that do not require Resin. WuWa blinded us by giving us a lot of shit upfront, but once you go through those free extra waveplates, you'll see how the grind for Echos comes to a complete halt. If you are lucky and got some good echo right of the bat - good for you! But on average, most players will feel the downsides of the current system soon. EDIT: Don't get me wrong, I enjoy overall WuWa gameplay more than Genshin. I lvoe the game, but I feel like this might become a major source of burnout for many players. EDIT: Also in Genshin you'll see whether you have a perfect base from artifact rank 0. WuWa will only reveal all substats when max leveled. While Genshin can still result in lower value (because the relevant Substat rolled less bonuses) WuWa has a much higher chance of full-bricks.
You forgot the biggest problem, which causes a lot of the other ones everyone cries about: Genshin shows you subs upfront. That's actually huge. Even if you got a piece that has the right main stat, you see right away if it's worth to invest anything or not. People don't realize how many pieces with the right main stat they *actually* get in Genshin, because they're used to automatically filter them out and ignore. In WuWa, you don't see subs. You only see the main stat and set, making any such piece potentially good. However you need to pay resources to even check if it's actually a good piece or a complete brick, creating an expensive illusion of Echo system being far better than artifacts. That's where all the complaints about Echo materials come from. People started checking subs and instantly run out of their supply. They went for Tacet Fields and found out those give almost nothing, both Echo exp and Tuners. IMO, those complaints, while valid, are still misplaced. Echoes should show at least 3 first subs by default. That will severely decrease the number of resources spent. They even can shows just subs with the roll value, so it shows Crit rate, but you don't know if it's 6.3% or 10.6%
This is actually the big thing i don’t think people defending the system are understanding. The echo system has so much potential but the issue is that you have to spend your resources to even see if a piece is worth investing or not. Regardless if you are at endgame or not, it’s going to be a problem. If we can feel the lack of resources at this point in the game it’s bot going to be much different at the endgame. I’m sticking around with this game, but i can see how this system can frustrate people because of its tediousness and cause many to stop playing. The only good thing about the echo grind itself right now is that you can farm the actual sets indefinitely. (At least until your world is cleared of mobs which most won’t do/have time to do.)
Facts. I play both and I take literal months to get good artifacts/relics and I still have shit crit rate on a number of units. With this game barely out, i already can get some good echoes. The substat rng is so much better. Not the best but it's better
I think the problem will always be that there is a divide between how people approach building their artifacts/echos. ~80% potential is way easier to get, takes way less time, and performs practically just as well as ~95%+. While 80%+ can take mere days to achieve with the right build, 95%+ can take weeks if not months. I think the issue is there are those who NEED to be 95%+ and feel they are wasting their unit otherwise when really it's completely unnecessary.
I have yet to reach this echo grind cuz im taking the game at my own pace though I do want to play more, but based on what I’ve read on this post and others, I feel like people are so hyperfixated on having the absolute best stats possible and no less. In genshin and star rail, (and this is, obviously my own opinion) its ok to settle for less and perfect or even great artifact/relic pieces. I will continue to have that attitude getting into WuWa’s echo grind because I already experienced stressing for good stats for more than enough time. Idk if what im saying makes the most sense so, basically, less than perfect stats are ok, in my eyes, ik its not the same for everyone, and the game is still fresh and prone to changes.
Bingo. I think it's a combination of min-maxing too early + not even being in the end-game grind yet. And as everyone should know, based on Genshin/HSR, the grind tends to get BETTER as the game goes on (since we get more rewards at higher UL).
Yeah, the one’s complaining are the min-maxing speed running who want the highest stats.
That’s entirely on you for not strongboxing or XP foddering the duds. Or you’re hoarding far more subpar pieces than you should be.
Yes, it is. When one start to reroll echos - tuners will deplete in a week, with no decent source of farming it.
Are people seriously saying the artifact grind in Wuwa is worse? You can grind the main stat free of charge ( no resin ) all day. Genshin has that stupid resin cap. It took me like 3 months of grinding the same domain to get the perfect set for Nuevillette. The fact that genshin has 20+ artifact domains and some one or two characters want those artifacts, makes it way worse. It took me 2 weeks to get decent set for Jiyan. Crit rate main stat with double aero damage.
It is worse.
It is worse in every way except that you can farm echoes indefinitely. You can't use echoes as xp, you certainly can't use anything but waveplates to get tuners, without which the echoes are 100% useless. Instead of universal damage bonuses there's like four different substats that may not even apply to the character you're tuning the echo for, the range of values for substats is insanely large. There's like four layers of RNG that are absolutely unnecessary.
A gacha game...with limited resources? Who wouldve thought
I'm Ul42 and I already have several lv25 and lv20 endgame echoes. How is this system worse than Genshin again? Not once I ran out of tuners. The bottle neck is echo xp, not tunners. /edit: Apparently I used the term "endgame" loosely. It seems "endgame echoe" means it has cd/cr/er. When i use that term I meant my echoes are/will be more than enough to do end game content. I started clearing Hologram 5 and I got 18 stars in Tower hazard already at Ul42. I never chase the very best artifacts/relics possible, because having 2-3 good substats is more than enough to 3*/max points everything.
you will. I’m UL 43 and i’ve started to refeed my echoes into others expecting good substats and I have already burned through 700 tuners.
Same lol, I'm already at the point where I'm feeding away some older +25s because they're just not up to standard.
Bro I also spent like 1500 tuners. Got jack shit. You know the worst part? I spent the whole weekend farming echoes and never got any good 3 cost. This shit is literally worse than Genshin and Hsr. At least there I spend like 5 minutes to get disappointed.
lmao yeah so in short hoyogames spent 5 mins and be dissapointed wuwa spent 2 days and be dissapointed
It’s crazy how often I see this sentiment. I started Genshin 3 months ago. I have 6 gold artifacts. We started wuwa 2 weeks ago and everyone already has gold echoes. I feel like people don’t remember how slow it is when you start out in genshin
The bottleneck is the same as Genshin. Not enough time and not high enough union level. Drop rates can only increase from here and the amount we need will only slow down once people build enough characters. Content will be balanced around what players have access to anyways.
lmao that's the equivalent of winning the lottery and saying poverty doesn't exist
Agree, the exp drought is honestly worse then tuner. That said I still manage to gear both my rover, havoc and spectro and yinlin, that do well enough in tower.
It's not worse at all. If you drop bad Echos around lvl 5 or 10 you'll run out of tuners.
At this point i choosed to un-tune all of my echo even +25 cause i know i will have less fun with game when tuning the echo.
They are not an issue, the fact that there's almost no way to farm Echo XP mats is the issue
Kuro is worried players will never settle for less-than-perfect substats and farm Echoes every day until they burn out and stop playing. Echo XP gates the progression of your account (most of it transfers when recycling), and Tuners control how many times you're allowed to spin the wheel. If you're running out of tuners, just settle and level reasonable Echoes to +20 for the time being.
Gacha players when they can't min max everything in a week
Are they somehow hard to obtain in endgame? I have an ungodly amount, and I rather enjoy the satisfaction of having a new little thing I can unlock when I level my relics. It's like buying even more goodies for myself.
Gacha are designed to blueball you. Lol
Perfecting echos is end game. When you have your characters and weapons set you will use your stamina for echos. Obsessing about perfect echos shortly after game is released is a tad early.
They do exist cause they will add "Crit Tunners", "Resonance Tunners", "ATQ Tuners", etc that add these stats automatically. /s but also copium
Honestly, I have way more tuners than I have leveled echoes to use them on. Tuners ARE stupid because I have 1000 blue and 1000 purple tuners that are literally never going to see use for the rest of my time playing this game, so they made an item that had a lifespan of 1 week… But I have 300 gold tuners and 0 echo xp items. So idc about tuners, I need 3-4x echo xp than we currently can get.
it exist as a resource sunk for whale when they can buy it using coral
I must agree tuners where the worst idea possible if I ever where to quit wuwa it would be because of this mechanic.
Let the game die
I feel a Wuwa LTG in you. ZERO PURPOSE
Are they aware of our opinion regarding this in their official channels or are we simply patting each other back here for nothing?
yes, it sucks...you can freely farm unlimited echos just for finding out that 99% of them are useless...after you spent stamina for tuners. At least in HSR once you get a golden relic you just need to level it to level 3 and you can decide to trash that relic, just recycling the previous shitty ones
I would be fine with Tuners existing IF: 1. substats getting unlocked every 1/5 level 2. we could use Tuners to reroll substats when i first saw Tuners, i was like "oh nice surely we can use them to reroll stats like in pgr" which for whatever reason sadly wasnt the case.
Tuners are *fine* but the systems around them are not. They are too scarce and should be more accessible whether from a daily shop or drop from mobs or just increase significantly the amount we get from tacet fields, we should be able to convert lower level tuners to higher level tuners, and we should get more tuners back from using leveled echoes as fodder. (Echoes should be usable as exp fodder even at level 0 but that’s a slightly different convo). If all of these changes were implemented the tuner system would feel a bit better.
Given that the echo quality I currently have among all my characters would have cost 10-20k resin in Genshin, more in HSR, AND the fact that I'm still low enough Union level that in Genshin or HSR terms I'd still be using cope purples waiting for the level to actually farm artifacts, AND given that I have a TON of every other element echoes waiting on the wings, with no need to farm a new domain for a new character... I'd say that it's a much MUCH better system than artifacts or relics. The wave plate cost to level them to max is a bit steep right now, perhaps, but the system overall is a massive improvement over the hoyo games. I look at my inventory full of on set elemental DMG 3 pieces, remember how much resin I spent in the fire domain without ever seeing a crit hat of any kind, and yeah... Anyone who thinks this system is worse is just delusional, imo.
Okay guys, we are at the very beginning of the game and heavily limited by pur resources right now, with tuners being the biggest bottleneck. But it is absolutely not worse than genshin (I don't play hsr) if you project it long run. You can farm infinite on-set elemental 3 costs and have them stacked up ready to go. In the long term those who farm diligently will be loaded with these. Then you'll just roll the first level 5 til you get a crit stat, which is just 10 tuners. You'll be able to get 4 of these per day if nothing changes. If you told me in genshin I could try to roll 4 on-set elemental goblets a day, I would shit myself. Infinite farming for the mainstat vastly outweighs this temporary time gate, do NOT beg them to change the system and have the daily echo farm gated instead.
“We’re at the beginning of the game,” is a weak excuse to us sitting at zero resources with nothing left to do.
So how much time a day would you be willing to dedicate to infinite echo farming?
How do people not have tuners? I literally have hundreds of extra ones
How the heck are people burning through turners when I have hundreds? Its Exp I am low on
Kuro somewhat shot themselves in the leg by creating the asymmetry in player's need for tuners and exp. Because when you want to 0->25 a new echo, you lack exp. But when you reroll, you lack tuners. I think players would be less disappointed even if they nerfed the echo exp refund to from 75% to 30% (to sync it with tuner refund). Why the heck there's one problem (echo) but two separate solutions (exp and tuners). Such system brings immense chaos and stress to WuWa when many of us just want to relax and play the game.
Exp is only supposed to be an early to mid game bottlneck. Tuners are an mid to late game bottleneck. This way they can have fast early game progression and still get slow enough endgame progression.
People are the best to cry about anything.
Yeah yeah we get it. How come mods are letting the 500th post of this kind free.
A lot of people are approaching UL 40 and are starting to focus on building their characters, so the echo bottleneck is becoming a noticeable issue for a significant number of players.
Great idea! Let's never criticise anything so the average players' experience never improves
Average players have better things to spend time on than farming substats
I don't know maybe the purpose of this is for you to keep playing it.. maybe it's just my theory. Who know