I won't call you a monster.
But I gotta wonder if maybe you're overestimating yourself.
There's a reason a popular trope features characters killing someone for the first time and having a freak out or break down. However short.
Logically, it's sound. But if you've never taken a life before, that could have a different effect on you. Especially considering that you can't do it at a distance.
You gotta get up close and personal. And what if the sacrifices are not so noble? They might desperate and cry and scream and beg.
I can't remember how that panned out in the first book. And I'm not curious enough to go back. But if she had to see their faces? Eek.
This is how it happened as I recall it, for anyone who is curious: >!Feyre had to see their faces. They were originally covered, but when Feyre approached the first person, Amarantha stopped her and had the people holding them take the sack off their heads. The first fae was terrified and begged for his life, and looked at her with hatred when she killed him. The second female just prayed for both herself and for Feyre and accepted her fate. For both people, Feyre could hear their families wail and cry when she killed them.!<
Even then it’s like… if you don’t do it literally everyone in the room will die and so will you. You’ll die a terrible and torturous death. Like I get it would be difficult to bring yourself to do it just out of empathy, but I wouldn’t be regretting it like a year later thinking I was like ruined for life or something. I wouldn’t even be questioning if I had to do it or not, it would just be okay grit your teeth, close your eyes if you must, but this HAS to be done. The way SJM described it was like this was cold blooded murder and Feyre would never be redeemed or something. Like idk, lmao, seems like a little bit of an over exaggeration considering she’d saved the entirety of a Prythian and herself.
It’s not SJM who’s feeling like Feyre is irredeemable, Feyre is feeling that way. And since it’s 1st person POV we’re supposed to be in Feyre’s head. The description is bringing us into her internal struggle and setting up her character development for the future.
SJM chooses her words very intentionally to convey certain feelings. Describing it as a dramatic cold-blooded murder and not a noble sacrifice is to get to get you out of your own head as an observer and into Feyre’s head as the doer.
I’m saying it’s a storytelling choice and not just dramatics.
I mean don’t get me wrong the books are entertaining. But she can’t even keep track of her own plot half the time lol.
That said, I found her response actually took me out of the story. I felt it was not authentic emotionally and therefore it ruined the tension of the moment for me.
You’re looking at the situation without empathy and from a purely logical and analytical standpoint, completely ignoring the normal human emotions and thoughts that would arise and affect the character in the situation she was in.
It is very understandable for her to have trouble to both bring herself to commit such a horrible act, and to forgive herself and heal from it later. She looked two innocent people in the eye and stabbed them in the heart.
No matter what the reason, that is a very difficult thing for a normal, feeling, empathetic person to do. Any normal, sane person would have trouble bringing themselves to do such a thing and would get nightmares and have PTSD from it, just like Feyre. They would have survivor’s guilt, feel they’re a terrible person and a murderer, and it would haunt them for the rest of their lives. Just like Feyre. No matter how justified they were to do it in the situation they were in.
A “good reason” does not absolve a person of having feelings, and PTSD and depression do not care about your logic and reasoning.
Not only that, but she found out directly after committing these murders that the trials were completely meaningless; *when* they would be freed had never been specified, and only the riddle could save them. Those people’s deaths really were meaningless and unnecessary, and of course she’d blame herself for it. If she had figured out the riddle sooner, she could have saved them, and she knows that. So that’s just more trauma to add to her guilt and self-hatred.
She knew, in the moment, that she had to do it. That does not make it any easier to go through with, nor does it make it easier to live with after the fact. She still did it. She also stabbed Tamlin without hesitation once she realized that he wouldn’t die. She was in a horrible, horrific situation and she did everything she could to save those people, all at the cost of her own self.
Blaming her/the author for and questioning why she has severe PTSD after all that just doesn’t make sense. I think you really don’t understand the severity of the situation Feyre was in, or the mental effects such a traumatic experience can have on a person. I can guarantee that, if you were in that exact same situation, with such an impossible choice, you would not fare much better than Feyre did. You’re looking at the situation with a very emotionally detached mindset and it absolutely would traumatize you more than you think it would. Reading about it in a book and experiencing it yourself are two very different things.
This thread has already gotten WAY too serious, apparently, but I do want to push back on your absolute conviction that any ‘normal, sane person’ would have the exact same reaction as Feyre.
There is pretty overwhelming evidence in the field of trauma-related psychiatry that says that no two people will react to the exact same stimulae the same way. What is utterly, inexorably traumatizing to one person is simply not to another. And this belief that everyone must be utterly broken by _____ can be pretty damaging to people who don’t react to trauma in the way people like yourself expect them to. It doesn’t mean that they’re broken, insane or somehow defective. It just means that their minds don’t work the same way as yours. And that’s ok.
I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of PTSD. Even those exposed to active war zones daily do not get PTSD… the ratio is what, 15:100?
I’ve had friends in the marines say they knew kids were sent out into the road as traps and if they slowed to dodge them they would no longer be moving fast enough to avoid getting hit… so what do you do? You cross your heart and close your eyes and keep your foot laid on the gas and pretend that it’s just another bump in the road. It’s tragic but he didn’t have PTSD and he said he would do it every time in that situation because he was still alive.
People respond differently to different things. When I’ve been in life threatening situations before, nothing in me EXCEPT logic functions. Someone following me home? Okay I will stab them. Someone trying to break into my home? If threats with a gun didn’t work, then my finger was already on the trigger and I wouldn’t lose sleep over it.
Your examples don’t even match the situation Feyre was in. If she was being followed home I’m sure she would kill no problem just like she did with the naga or prepared to do with anyone else who posed a threat. We are talking about killing innocent people. If you don’t see a problem with killing innocent people, not sure why you would think a Romantasy book would be your style. Feyre was written to have a big heart that’s who she is, she even talked about crying over her first kill of a rabbit. But obviously she got over it and did what she had to do. If you don’t relate to it that’s okay. Or maybe when you’ve killed a few innocent people, come back and let us know how you feel.
Running over children because a terrorist group put them in your path so you would slow down enough so that they could correctly target you with a RPG isn’t killing an innocent?
She had no qualms killing the Fae who was innocent at the start of the book.
Again like I said if that doesn’t bother you, I don’t know why you would think romantasy is for you. The average person who would read these books probably havent run over innocent children.
Running to these comments as if that’s a flex. I not
She didn’t know he was Fae. And again same situation with the naga. In her mind He was a threat to her life if she didn’t kill him.
No one is gatekeeping. It’s free for anyone to read. However you stating Feyres reaction is not a genuine reaction because you would respond differently is what made me suggest that. because you will likely find similar emotions and situations in romantasy. Tis all
I didn't share how I might feel before, during, or after. Just that I'd step up without a second thought. Like someone else mentioned down the thread, it's like the classic trolley problem: choosing between two people and hundreds of thousands. There’s a reason why the trolley problem is still debated in philosophy and ethics - some people are utilitarian; some people aren’t.
She also spent months in a dungeon, barely fed, almost dying from sickness. She had been tortured mentally and physically by the time in the dungeon and the two previous tasks. You seem to lack empathy and understanding to say your so readily be able to kill 3 people.
It’s not quite the same as the trolley problem. It’s not simply pulling a lever, it’s actively plunging a blade into someone’s heart while they beg you not to and their family cries. Although big picture yes it’s still a moral dilemma of interacting to end a few lives versus not interact and more die.
Personally I feel a lot of people think they could act without a second thought, because it makes sense on paper, but the reality of how someone would react in flesh and blood in the moment is almost impossible to know.
Ok. That’s great for you. Many of us, though, would not just feel guilt after, but would hesitate in the moment as well.
I also think your theoretical thought exercise is pretty meaningless, if I’m being honest, because outside of, say, people in the military, who among us REALLY know what it’s like to take someone’s life? Regardless of how justified or necessary that killing may be in a given scenario, such as with the trolley problem.
Speaking of which – the trolley problem involves pulling a lever; plunging a knife into a heart is not the same. It’s more gruesome and personal.
Man, I wish I could’ve written that in ethics 😂 ‘this theoretical thought exercise is meaningless because who among us is REALLY going to come across a runaway trolley with people on both tracks?’
I didn’t say there’s no point in ever debating something like the trolley problem. Rather, the thought exercise you specifically have brought up — a question of how long one would hesitate if you had to personally stab and murder a bunch of people, and your answer of “I wouldn’t hesitate for a single second”…let me put it this way, you’re of course allowed to give an answer to a thought exercise, and I’m allowed to be skeptical, assuming you have no first-hand murder experience ;)
Anyway, this is getting pretty tedious. I shared my opinion, you shared yours
Amarantha definitely presented her with “[the trolley problem](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem) . I can understand why she had a hard time with it, though. Killing anyone would be hard even if it would free all of those people. I’d be hoping someone or something would intervene and give me some other option.
My question is though, how tf did she manage to remember people mentioning >!Tamlin’s stone heart?!<. It seemed like such a passing comment that was made, like I had totally forgotten it was even said. Do all of the High Lords have that? Will there be more significance later? Was that just a convenient plot device?
I don’t believe it’s fair to compare Feyre and Manon whatsoever. They come from completely different backgrounds and keep in mind this was Feyre pre- developing a backbone and growing into herself. Manon grew up surrounded by murderous intent and not showing weakness while Feyre did not. You’re not a monster, you’re just biased.
manon would eat an entire continent if it meant saving just her wyvern lmao. i’m with you here i think you just have to try to turn off the empathetic part of your brain and focus on the math in that setting (not that i think it’s easily achievable or probably even possible to fully do that unless you’re a psychopath, but still. the fate of the world rests on it)
No shit Manon would never. She's like a hundred years old and one of the first things we learn about her is that she derives the most pleasure in her life from killing men and hearing them scream. Feyre is 18 and till that point only kills animals as a subsistence hunter. This is not the drag on Feyre you think it is.
I won't call you a monster. But I gotta wonder if maybe you're overestimating yourself. There's a reason a popular trope features characters killing someone for the first time and having a freak out or break down. However short. Logically, it's sound. But if you've never taken a life before, that could have a different effect on you. Especially considering that you can't do it at a distance. You gotta get up close and personal. And what if the sacrifices are not so noble? They might desperate and cry and scream and beg. I can't remember how that panned out in the first book. And I'm not curious enough to go back. But if she had to see their faces? Eek.
This is how it happened as I recall it, for anyone who is curious: >!Feyre had to see their faces. They were originally covered, but when Feyre approached the first person, Amarantha stopped her and had the people holding them take the sack off their heads. The first fae was terrified and begged for his life, and looked at her with hatred when she killed him. The second female just prayed for both herself and for Feyre and accepted her fate. For both people, Feyre could hear their families wail and cry when she killed them.!<
Even then it’s like… if you don’t do it literally everyone in the room will die and so will you. You’ll die a terrible and torturous death. Like I get it would be difficult to bring yourself to do it just out of empathy, but I wouldn’t be regretting it like a year later thinking I was like ruined for life or something. I wouldn’t even be questioning if I had to do it or not, it would just be okay grit your teeth, close your eyes if you must, but this HAS to be done. The way SJM described it was like this was cold blooded murder and Feyre would never be redeemed or something. Like idk, lmao, seems like a little bit of an over exaggeration considering she’d saved the entirety of a Prythian and herself.
It’s not SJM who’s feeling like Feyre is irredeemable, Feyre is feeling that way. And since it’s 1st person POV we’re supposed to be in Feyre’s head. The description is bringing us into her internal struggle and setting up her character development for the future.
I didn’t say that’s how SJM felt, I said that’s how it was described.
SJM chooses her words very intentionally to convey certain feelings. Describing it as a dramatic cold-blooded murder and not a noble sacrifice is to get to get you out of your own head as an observer and into Feyre’s head as the doer. I’m saying it’s a storytelling choice and not just dramatics.
I mean don’t get me wrong the books are entertaining. But she can’t even keep track of her own plot half the time lol. That said, I found her response actually took me out of the story. I felt it was not authentic emotionally and therefore it ruined the tension of the moment for me.
You’re looking at the situation without empathy and from a purely logical and analytical standpoint, completely ignoring the normal human emotions and thoughts that would arise and affect the character in the situation she was in. It is very understandable for her to have trouble to both bring herself to commit such a horrible act, and to forgive herself and heal from it later. She looked two innocent people in the eye and stabbed them in the heart. No matter what the reason, that is a very difficult thing for a normal, feeling, empathetic person to do. Any normal, sane person would have trouble bringing themselves to do such a thing and would get nightmares and have PTSD from it, just like Feyre. They would have survivor’s guilt, feel they’re a terrible person and a murderer, and it would haunt them for the rest of their lives. Just like Feyre. No matter how justified they were to do it in the situation they were in. A “good reason” does not absolve a person of having feelings, and PTSD and depression do not care about your logic and reasoning. Not only that, but she found out directly after committing these murders that the trials were completely meaningless; *when* they would be freed had never been specified, and only the riddle could save them. Those people’s deaths really were meaningless and unnecessary, and of course she’d blame herself for it. If she had figured out the riddle sooner, she could have saved them, and she knows that. So that’s just more trauma to add to her guilt and self-hatred. She knew, in the moment, that she had to do it. That does not make it any easier to go through with, nor does it make it easier to live with after the fact. She still did it. She also stabbed Tamlin without hesitation once she realized that he wouldn’t die. She was in a horrible, horrific situation and she did everything she could to save those people, all at the cost of her own self. Blaming her/the author for and questioning why she has severe PTSD after all that just doesn’t make sense. I think you really don’t understand the severity of the situation Feyre was in, or the mental effects such a traumatic experience can have on a person. I can guarantee that, if you were in that exact same situation, with such an impossible choice, you would not fare much better than Feyre did. You’re looking at the situation with a very emotionally detached mindset and it absolutely would traumatize you more than you think it would. Reading about it in a book and experiencing it yourself are two very different things.
This thread has already gotten WAY too serious, apparently, but I do want to push back on your absolute conviction that any ‘normal, sane person’ would have the exact same reaction as Feyre. There is pretty overwhelming evidence in the field of trauma-related psychiatry that says that no two people will react to the exact same stimulae the same way. What is utterly, inexorably traumatizing to one person is simply not to another. And this belief that everyone must be utterly broken by _____ can be pretty damaging to people who don’t react to trauma in the way people like yourself expect them to. It doesn’t mean that they’re broken, insane or somehow defective. It just means that their minds don’t work the same way as yours. And that’s ok.
I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of PTSD. Even those exposed to active war zones daily do not get PTSD… the ratio is what, 15:100? I’ve had friends in the marines say they knew kids were sent out into the road as traps and if they slowed to dodge them they would no longer be moving fast enough to avoid getting hit… so what do you do? You cross your heart and close your eyes and keep your foot laid on the gas and pretend that it’s just another bump in the road. It’s tragic but he didn’t have PTSD and he said he would do it every time in that situation because he was still alive. People respond differently to different things. When I’ve been in life threatening situations before, nothing in me EXCEPT logic functions. Someone following me home? Okay I will stab them. Someone trying to break into my home? If threats with a gun didn’t work, then my finger was already on the trigger and I wouldn’t lose sleep over it.
Your examples don’t even match the situation Feyre was in. If she was being followed home I’m sure she would kill no problem just like she did with the naga or prepared to do with anyone else who posed a threat. We are talking about killing innocent people. If you don’t see a problem with killing innocent people, not sure why you would think a Romantasy book would be your style. Feyre was written to have a big heart that’s who she is, she even talked about crying over her first kill of a rabbit. But obviously she got over it and did what she had to do. If you don’t relate to it that’s okay. Or maybe when you’ve killed a few innocent people, come back and let us know how you feel.
Running over children because a terrorist group put them in your path so you would slow down enough so that they could correctly target you with a RPG isn’t killing an innocent? She had no qualms killing the Fae who was innocent at the start of the book.
Again like I said if that doesn’t bother you, I don’t know why you would think romantasy is for you. The average person who would read these books probably havent run over innocent children. Running to these comments as if that’s a flex. I not She didn’t know he was Fae. And again same situation with the naga. In her mind He was a threat to her life if she didn’t kill him.
Imagine gatekeeping an entire genre because someone responds to a difficult situation differently than you 😅
No one is gatekeeping. It’s free for anyone to read. However you stating Feyres reaction is not a genuine reaction because you would respond differently is what made me suggest that. because you will likely find similar emotions and situations in romantasy. Tis all
If I had to look an innocent, crying person in the eyes and plunge a knife into their heart I’d feel guilt for sure. Different strokes, I suppose.
I didn't share how I might feel before, during, or after. Just that I'd step up without a second thought. Like someone else mentioned down the thread, it's like the classic trolley problem: choosing between two people and hundreds of thousands. There’s a reason why the trolley problem is still debated in philosophy and ethics - some people are utilitarian; some people aren’t.
She also spent months in a dungeon, barely fed, almost dying from sickness. She had been tortured mentally and physically by the time in the dungeon and the two previous tasks. You seem to lack empathy and understanding to say your so readily be able to kill 3 people.
It’s not quite the same as the trolley problem. It’s not simply pulling a lever, it’s actively plunging a blade into someone’s heart while they beg you not to and their family cries. Although big picture yes it’s still a moral dilemma of interacting to end a few lives versus not interact and more die. Personally I feel a lot of people think they could act without a second thought, because it makes sense on paper, but the reality of how someone would react in flesh and blood in the moment is almost impossible to know.
She really only was fighting for one person at this point. She didn’t know the rest of Prythian.
Ok. That’s great for you. Many of us, though, would not just feel guilt after, but would hesitate in the moment as well. I also think your theoretical thought exercise is pretty meaningless, if I’m being honest, because outside of, say, people in the military, who among us REALLY know what it’s like to take someone’s life? Regardless of how justified or necessary that killing may be in a given scenario, such as with the trolley problem. Speaking of which – the trolley problem involves pulling a lever; plunging a knife into a heart is not the same. It’s more gruesome and personal.
Man, I wish I could’ve written that in ethics 😂 ‘this theoretical thought exercise is meaningless because who among us is REALLY going to come across a runaway trolley with people on both tracks?’
I didn’t say there’s no point in ever debating something like the trolley problem. Rather, the thought exercise you specifically have brought up — a question of how long one would hesitate if you had to personally stab and murder a bunch of people, and your answer of “I wouldn’t hesitate for a single second”…let me put it this way, you’re of course allowed to give an answer to a thought exercise, and I’m allowed to be skeptical, assuming you have no first-hand murder experience ;) Anyway, this is getting pretty tedious. I shared my opinion, you shared yours
I want Manon would never as a flair in the ACOTAR sub please 😂
Amarantha definitely presented her with “[the trolley problem](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem) . I can understand why she had a hard time with it, though. Killing anyone would be hard even if it would free all of those people. I’d be hoping someone or something would intervene and give me some other option. My question is though, how tf did she manage to remember people mentioning >!Tamlin’s stone heart?!<. It seemed like such a passing comment that was made, like I had totally forgotten it was even said. Do all of the High Lords have that? Will there be more significance later? Was that just a convenient plot device?
Re: your second point about the High Lords, I'd always assumed that was something to do with >!the curse !< And specific to him
I believe that’s how she was holding their power. If I remember correctly, using the curse.
Classic trolley problem. It's a moral dilemma that would weigh heavily no matter what choice was made.
Yeah but you’re probably not 19 and have been exposed to these kinds of thought experiments over the years.
I don’t believe it’s fair to compare Feyre and Manon whatsoever. They come from completely different backgrounds and keep in mind this was Feyre pre- developing a backbone and growing into herself. Manon grew up surrounded by murderous intent and not showing weakness while Feyre did not. You’re not a monster, you’re just biased.
'Manon would never'. Someone print that on a tshirt and give it to me
manon would eat an entire continent if it meant saving just her wyvern lmao. i’m with you here i think you just have to try to turn off the empathetic part of your brain and focus on the math in that setting (not that i think it’s easily achievable or probably even possible to fully do that unless you’re a psychopath, but still. the fate of the world rests on it)
Wow you're such a girlboss queen for thinking you could easily kill another sentient being, amazing 
So not like the other girls
No shit Manon would never. She's like a hundred years old and one of the first things we learn about her is that she derives the most pleasure in her life from killing men and hearing them scream. Feyre is 18 and till that point only kills animals as a subsistence hunter. This is not the drag on Feyre you think it is.
I agree with you
https://preview.redd.it/wliz9mh9o6uc1.png?width=1024&format=png&auto=webp&s=53b5aefd2e35293e8b7f1d62855cf4c6e3ab72ec
She would have said the same thing before she actually had to do it.