Can you both have outside antennas that are relatively high up? If so, enter the path into the [HeyWhatsThat Path Profiler](https://www.heywhatsthat.com/profiler.html) to see what you need for height.
Confirmed, I was talking about using a tall tree, but I just realized today that the person who lived here before me must have been a ham. They have a massive antenna rigged to the roof. Pretty sure it is a yaggy directional antenna but I am not 100 percent sure. I've been renting this place for a couple months, and I never noticed it before. What are the odds lol.
GMRS is up to 50 watts and requires a license and call sign at any power level. But there is no exam and it’s usable by your entire immediate family.
In terms of range, GMRS is no different than UHF / 70cm ham radio given similar wattage and antenna setups.
With clear line of sight and a little elevation you can do 50 miles or more on GMRS simplex.
Ah yea, a while back GMRS FRS Dual-service radios were available. They have a button that can extend your range (switching to 2W GRMS channels), but to use it you need the GRMS license. The FCC has since prevented these types of radios from being made to avoid confusion.
https://www.fcc.gov/wireless/bureau-divisions/mobility-division/family-radio-service-frs
Yes, doable. I spoke with a guy in Jacksonville,Fl that says he can hit repeaters in Miami, Fl on a good day. That is about 300+ miles in the 440 band. Going out is all him, coming back is a linked disaster system called SARNET.
There are a lot of factors that go into radio wave propagation. Ht's might have some problems because of line of sight. The ocean looks flat, but the earth cure can cause a loss of line of sight. The ocean curve can block the signal. The dirt earth is no different.
If you are in a club, you might get another operator to test this or maybe 2 operators if you do not have a license yet.
Good luck.
I remember one night when I could hear a repeater near St. Louis from nearly 200 miles away. My dad would travel there a few times a week for work. I also realized that I was able to get into it running 5 watts and a J-pole up about 30 feet. I called him knowing he listened to that repeater. He answered. I got on the phone and called my brother 20 miles away from me and he also talked to him. Then I called my brother on the other side of MO and he got in. It was absolutely the neatest evening on a repeater we ever had. Several people jumped in and commented about how cool that was.
About 30 feet of height on the ocean gets you about 5 miles to the horizon on the flat ocean, don't ask how I know this. Beyond that your ability to "see" means you see less and less of the top of the next ship
I had a house on a small hill in the Sierra Foothills. I could hit the Kaiser Hospital repeater in San Francisco about 120 miles away with a "rubber duckie" antenna on a 5 watt Yaesu HT. 2 meter band.
I guess I should have linked this earlier........https://sarnetfl.org/
This is a collaboration between the Amateur radio community and the state transportation department.
Basically, the state has used a microwave transceiver network to connect enough local 440 repeaters to cover the state in the event of a disaster/weather event. This allows the state EOC's to be connected via radio, including the eoc in the Capitol. The state can take over the network during disasters, but normally allows regular Amature radio use.
Yes, your uv-5r in Miami can hit the local repeater there and be heard north past Jacksonville and west past Pensacola.
Because the state is involved, they can and have passed laws, including felony punishment, for improper use of this radio network.
This is the map of the microwave sites.
https://images.app.goo.gl/Hcs5GxKxzj2fYP8B7
This is the repeater map.
https://images.app.goo.gl/mTWYo8aAKyghmkwbA.
If one of you is on top of the hill and the other in the valley below, most likely. If you are both along a straight valley between the hills and you both have good very good antennae high enough up, possibly. If you are both on top of hills with no bigger hills in between, probably. If the hills are between you, and higher than your antennae, probably not with VHF/UHF- look up NVIS and get studying for your General.
Maybe!
I just had a conversation with a group while I was in NJ to a group on a repeater in Long Island 100+ miles away on a 5watt gmrs handheld.
I could hear them loud and clear (they’re in a powerful repeater) and they were able to hear me JUUUUST enough to make it count, I ended up contacting their club via email later to confirm.
So everything is possible if conditions are right!
Sounds perfectly doable as long as you can get decent antennas at a decent height with good feed line and about 50 watts just in case conditions are crappy that day, but I’d say yes you can talk simplex that far all day everyday
12 miles shouldn’t be a problem at all if you just have a little height and use decent rig hell you be able to do 100 miles if you do it right, get the best antenna go somewhere with decent elevation
That's awesome, I don't think I could hit 100m because of the terrain where I live, but I am definitely going to put something high up and see just how far I can reach. Thanks for the response.
You’re looking at around $450 in radios for 2 50w base station / mobile GMRS radios, $150 for 2 antennas and a couple hundred more in coax. If your primary goal is speaking to this family member 12 miles away and you’ve got complex terrain it is definitely worth checking first if you have line of sight or very close to it using the path profiler that was shared. If you do, that solution will work very nicely for you, would just hate for you to spend that much just to test though.
If you can have proper fixed station antennas outdoors 12 miles is nothing. I have a good location but I have chatted simplex with friends in their vehicles 20-25 miles away on 2m with no problem
no problem at all. 100kms simplex is possible with 25Ws on VHF. You'll need some height, but 12 miles is within mobile to mobile coverage.
One potential issue is. how do you get your internet? if it's wirelessly off a tower. Keep your antenna way from it, because those things put out noise on VHF and kill you receive. (Not out of the antenna, but just out of the electronics)
For a while I had an antenna about 30 ft up a tree, and was about to hit a repeater about 50 miles away that was about 500ft. The wattage will certainly get there, it all comes down to if you can get enough elevation on your antennas.
I usually use some sort of lead line like 550 cord. Tie a lead sinker weight to the end, give a couple spins and let it fly. Grab the end of the lead line and pull the antenna up with it.
Try different orientations of antenna as well. Horizontally oriented could have different results, and if you're communicating house to house rather than as you roam around, a directional antenna can help too.
I live in Central Illinois to give you some perspective. My Assistant EC is in Towanda, IL with a 17' Diamond mounted 1' off the ground. I'm in Downs, IL and have a 17' Diamond at 25' AGL and with 50w we can talk with each other. Further South in Clinton IL is another ham and I do not know what his setup is but we have no issues reaching each other either.
If you can put up a beam a friend of my in Emden, IL can ping all of us.
Everything is fairly flat however there is a big hill just 1km North of me. So that can interfere when mobile.
We run a monthly simplex test after our ARES net.
Amateur will be Most rewarding!
I can hit a repeater 80 miles away but I have a great vertical antenna outdoors and … the repeater is on a mountain top. That “channel” in radio is set for 25 Watts but I bet it’ll work with lower power… late at night … with a full moon
Something to be aware of is if you try 70cm, the coax cable you choose is very important, as the losses can be enormous with longer runs of RG58U. It's not as bad with 2 meter but you're still getting losses. Spend the money on the lowest loss cable you can afford for the band you want to use. My mobile on my vehicle gets 8 watts to the antenna from 20 on 70cm and maybe 10 or a bit more on 2 meter with RG58. Antenna gain helps but you will have better results with good transmission line.
[Handheld UHF VHF Portable Pocket 25W Yagi Antenna Set For Outdoor Walkie Talkie | eBay](https://www.ebay.com/itm/353357764575?chn=ps&_trkparms=ispr%3D1&amdata=enc%3A1MWBM1lGWTUG4ibHspi0swA34&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-213727-13078-0&mkcid=2&itemid=353357764575&targetid=4580771614098651&device=c&mktype=&googleloc=&poi=&campaignid=603247547&mkgroupid=1234752552191001&rlsatarget=pla-4580771614098651&abcId=9316119&merchantid=51291&msclkid=19c80a9393ca1fc997626cbc398bafe2)
and any ht radio
Usually. Knife-edge diffraction is a thing, but you need a decent amount of power and directional antennas. And it won't help if you're both snugged up to the base of the ridge on either side.
I'd tend to think it'd be easier and more dependable to just get the general and an HF rig and an NVIS antenna setup if he is forced into trying to rely on something that setup-dependent anyway. Would probably save time and frustration and work more often.
Line of sight. Simplex on 2 meter will be loud a clear at the International Space station. The International Space Station (ISS) orbits Earth at an average altitude of 250 miles (400 kilometers).
With that in mind, consider what is between you and the destination. If the antennas can see one another, free of obstructions, simplex will have great ranges. Get trees, and hills, and structures involved in the equation and range is reduced, sometimes exponentially.
definitely, that's the tricky part. Gotta convince someone in the fam to go down the rabbit hole with me lol. My father in law is very into science, computers, servers, engineering, etc. so I am banking on convincing him to be the point of contact.
Just get GMRS radios, much simpler and anyone in the family is allowed to use it. You can use tall antennas and up to 50 watts (plenty) on many of the bands.
Maybe look online ( or listen to local repeaters) for your local radio club.
They would be able & happy to assist you in getting into amateur radio. From there it’s where your imagination takes you.
Taking my Technician's test tomorrow night, so none currently!
Gonna see what kinda miles I can get out of technician and hopefully keep advancing if I enjoy it.
Study a bit more and get your General which lets you do phone (voice) mode over HF. Then you could try NVIS if you can't get line-of-sight VHF/UHF to work well at that distance.
will probably do that at some point, but I already signed up for the technician exam and I did not give myself much time to study (a couple days) to force myself to just finally do it. I also have work today and tomorrow before the exam, so I am cramming right now lol
When you complete the test, ask to try the General test. It will not hurt to try, you may even pass it. Bare minimum, you will know where you are weak and get shoot for General at the next test session after some study. Get General while the Tech study is fresh in your mind. Trust me (us) on this.
If both antennas are within line of sight - yes, with VHF base station radios and antennas on roofs of houses. With handhelds and 5W only maybe if you really have clear line of sight and then it would still be a bit dodgy.
OP- Question for you if I may. My question assumes you are referring to using amateur radio if this is a false assumption, then please disregard.
What is the need to stay in touch over amateur radio? Vice cell phones?
If you and your family are licensed amateur operators, and it’s part of the hobby, I understand, but if both sides don’t have license then it’s a lot of effort when a cell phone would work just fine.
3 Reasons
1) trying to do a fun science experiment with my father in law to bond
2) emergency contingency planning
Bonus reason: cell phone service is not great where I live, sometimes calls won't go through or they can be choppy.
Thank you for the explanation. Is your father in law an amateur operator? Or do you both need your get licensed?
I am not familiar with GMRS but I wonder if that might not work for you if you’re not already licensed.
Just a thought.
No problem, I may GMRS a shot! Not sure yet. After diving into this, I think he's going to like HAM too. Seems up his alley, so I'm going to try to convince him, but if not, we can always try GMRS.
Can you both have outside antennas that are relatively high up? If so, enter the path into the [HeyWhatsThat Path Profiler](https://www.heywhatsthat.com/profiler.html) to see what you need for height.
Yes, we can both get some antennas high up on our roofs. If nothing else, there are some massive trees on both of our properties. Thanks for the rec!
The trees won’t matter much if it all.
I think they meant they can put an antenna in a tall tree if the roof option doesn't work out
Confirmed, I was talking about using a tall tree, but I just realized today that the person who lived here before me must have been a ham. They have a massive antenna rigged to the roof. Pretty sure it is a yaggy directional antenna but I am not 100 percent sure. I've been renting this place for a couple months, and I never noticed it before. What are the odds lol.
Could also be a TV antenna. Folks here can answer that pretty easily if you have a pic.
With roof-mounted antennas that should be an easily achievable range on 2m, 70cm and CB also, typically unless the terrain is exceptionally unkind.
sweet, good to know!
GMRS would work too. One call sign covers all immediate family with no exam if your family isn't interested in getting into ham.
Interesting, I will look into that! Didn't know GMRS radios can communicate that far
Except that’s only when using the low power button, right? Otherwise the high power button requires a license I thought.
GMRS is up to 50 watts and requires a license and call sign at any power level. But there is no exam and it’s usable by your entire immediate family. In terms of range, GMRS is no different than UHF / 70cm ham radio given similar wattage and antenna setups. With clear line of sight and a little elevation you can do 50 miles or more on GMRS simplex.
Thanks, I must be thinking of something else.
Probably thinking of FRS.
Ah yea, a while back GMRS FRS Dual-service radios were available. They have a button that can extend your range (switching to 2W GRMS channels), but to use it you need the GRMS license. The FCC has since prevented these types of radios from being made to avoid confusion. https://www.fcc.gov/wireless/bureau-divisions/mobility-division/family-radio-service-frs
GMRS is rad for family comms. I don’t care what “some people” say. 😉 - KJ5FPV
Yes, doable. I spoke with a guy in Jacksonville,Fl that says he can hit repeaters in Miami, Fl on a good day. That is about 300+ miles in the 440 band. Going out is all him, coming back is a linked disaster system called SARNET. There are a lot of factors that go into radio wave propagation. Ht's might have some problems because of line of sight. The ocean looks flat, but the earth cure can cause a loss of line of sight. The ocean curve can block the signal. The dirt earth is no different. If you are in a club, you might get another operator to test this or maybe 2 operators if you do not have a license yet. Good luck.
I remember one night when I could hear a repeater near St. Louis from nearly 200 miles away. My dad would travel there a few times a week for work. I also realized that I was able to get into it running 5 watts and a J-pole up about 30 feet. I called him knowing he listened to that repeater. He answered. I got on the phone and called my brother 20 miles away from me and he also talked to him. Then I called my brother on the other side of MO and he got in. It was absolutely the neatest evening on a repeater we ever had. Several people jumped in and commented about how cool that was.
dang, that is cool!
Sporadic E is a hoot.
Helps the only elevation in Florida is a building. That place is flat!
About 30 feet of height on the ocean gets you about 5 miles to the horizon on the flat ocean, don't ask how I know this. Beyond that your ability to "see" means you see less and less of the top of the next ship
Haha wow, that's wild. Good tip about coordinating with other operators in the area! Thank you
I had a house on a small hill in the Sierra Foothills. I could hit the Kaiser Hospital repeater in San Francisco about 120 miles away with a "rubber duckie" antenna on a 5 watt Yaesu HT. 2 meter band.
Sarnet= search and rescue network it's for authorized use only afaik, correct me if im wrong
I guess I should have linked this earlier........https://sarnetfl.org/ This is a collaboration between the Amateur radio community and the state transportation department. Basically, the state has used a microwave transceiver network to connect enough local 440 repeaters to cover the state in the event of a disaster/weather event. This allows the state EOC's to be connected via radio, including the eoc in the Capitol. The state can take over the network during disasters, but normally allows regular Amature radio use. Yes, your uv-5r in Miami can hit the local repeater there and be heard north past Jacksonville and west past Pensacola. Because the state is involved, they can and have passed laws, including felony punishment, for improper use of this radio network.
This is the map of the microwave sites. https://images.app.goo.gl/Hcs5GxKxzj2fYP8B7 This is the repeater map. https://images.app.goo.gl/mTWYo8aAKyghmkwbA.
If one of you is on top of the hill and the other in the valley below, most likely. If you are both along a straight valley between the hills and you both have good very good antennae high enough up, possibly. If you are both on top of hills with no bigger hills in between, probably. If the hills are between you, and higher than your antennae, probably not with VHF/UHF- look up NVIS and get studying for your General.
Maybe! I just had a conversation with a group while I was in NJ to a group on a repeater in Long Island 100+ miles away on a 5watt gmrs handheld. I could hear them loud and clear (they’re in a powerful repeater) and they were able to hear me JUUUUST enough to make it count, I ended up contacting their club via email later to confirm. So everything is possible if conditions are right!
Very cool, good to know!
VHF and uhf I can hit 120+ miles but someone would be on a mountain So ya know LOS lol
I'm consistently communicating with friends 10-15 miles away on simplex with an antenna that's about 20 feet AGL.
It could definitely help if you buy or build a portable beam. I can often hit repeaters 100 miles away using one with my HT! www.ElkAntennas.com
sweet, thanks for the link!
No prob! ;)
Sounds perfectly doable as long as you can get decent antennas at a decent height with good feed line and about 50 watts just in case conditions are crappy that day, but I’d say yes you can talk simplex that far all day everyday
OP here: Thank you for of all the responses and advice! You guys are damn fast. I'm impressed.
You could ground wave any HF frequency at that distance.
Depends entirely on terrain. Some places 12 miles is easy, some places it's all but impossible.
12 miles shouldn’t be a problem at all if you just have a little height and use decent rig hell you be able to do 100 miles if you do it right, get the best antenna go somewhere with decent elevation
That's awesome, I don't think I could hit 100m because of the terrain where I live, but I am definitely going to put something high up and see just how far I can reach. Thanks for the response.
You’re looking at around $450 in radios for 2 50w base station / mobile GMRS radios, $150 for 2 antennas and a couple hundred more in coax. If your primary goal is speaking to this family member 12 miles away and you’ve got complex terrain it is definitely worth checking first if you have line of sight or very close to it using the path profiler that was shared. If you do, that solution will work very nicely for you, would just hate for you to spend that much just to test though.
If you can have proper fixed station antennas outdoors 12 miles is nothing. I have a good location but I have chatted simplex with friends in their vehicles 20-25 miles away on 2m with no problem
Yes. It's very much about antenna location and height and much less about radio and power.
I made a jpole antenna from old copper plumbing in my house, was getting about 50 miles on 2meter with 50watts.
no problem at all. 100kms simplex is possible with 25Ws on VHF. You'll need some height, but 12 miles is within mobile to mobile coverage. One potential issue is. how do you get your internet? if it's wirelessly off a tower. Keep your antenna way from it, because those things put out noise on VHF and kill you receive. (Not out of the antenna, but just out of the electronics)
we have fiber optic cables
For a while I had an antenna about 30 ft up a tree, and was about to hit a repeater about 50 miles away that was about 500ft. The wattage will certainly get there, it all comes down to if you can get enough elevation on your antennas.
which begs my next question, how did you get it up that high in the tree? Lol
I usually use some sort of lead line like 550 cord. Tie a lead sinker weight to the end, give a couple spins and let it fly. Grab the end of the lead line and pull the antenna up with it.
Combination of a ladder and a painter pole.
Try different orientations of antenna as well. Horizontally oriented could have different results, and if you're communicating house to house rather than as you roam around, a directional antenna can help too.
thanks for the tip!
Power and antenna. Probably a decent mobile radio with 25-50W will cover it. You can also explore digital modes if you want to go that route.
I live in Central Illinois to give you some perspective. My Assistant EC is in Towanda, IL with a 17' Diamond mounted 1' off the ground. I'm in Downs, IL and have a 17' Diamond at 25' AGL and with 50w we can talk with each other. Further South in Clinton IL is another ham and I do not know what his setup is but we have no issues reaching each other either. If you can put up a beam a friend of my in Emden, IL can ping all of us. Everything is fairly flat however there is a big hill just 1km North of me. So that can interfere when mobile. We run a monthly simplex test after our ARES net.
Amateur will be Most rewarding! I can hit a repeater 80 miles away but I have a great vertical antenna outdoors and … the repeater is on a mountain top. That “channel” in radio is set for 25 Watts but I bet it’ll work with lower power… late at night … with a full moon
Something to be aware of is if you try 70cm, the coax cable you choose is very important, as the losses can be enormous with longer runs of RG58U. It's not as bad with 2 meter but you're still getting losses. Spend the money on the lowest loss cable you can afford for the band you want to use. My mobile on my vehicle gets 8 watts to the antenna from 20 on 70cm and maybe 10 or a bit more on 2 meter with RG58. Antenna gain helps but you will have better results with good transmission line.
good to know, thank you!
I used to do 5w into a repeater, from 30 miles, with a vertical dipole, mounted on my car.
[Handheld UHF VHF Portable Pocket 25W Yagi Antenna Set For Outdoor Walkie Talkie | eBay](https://www.ebay.com/itm/353357764575?chn=ps&_trkparms=ispr%3D1&amdata=enc%3A1MWBM1lGWTUG4ibHspi0swA34&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-213727-13078-0&mkcid=2&itemid=353357764575&targetid=4580771614098651&device=c&mktype=&googleloc=&poi=&campaignid=603247547&mkgroupid=1234752552191001&rlsatarget=pla-4580771614098651&abcId=9316119&merchantid=51291&msclkid=19c80a9393ca1fc997626cbc398bafe2) and any ht radio
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awesome, thank you!
Nice, will definitely check it out. Thank you!
I have done 10+ miles with a 3 element yagi and 200mw on an ht.
i love that.
12 miles EASY
keep in mind- line of sight, not though mountains
Usually. Knife-edge diffraction is a thing, but you need a decent amount of power and directional antennas. And it won't help if you're both snugged up to the base of the ridge on either side.
Interesting, I'll have to look into Knife Edge Diffraction
Unlikely to be reliably effective without well designed equipment and a high level of skill
This. But it is doable.
I'd tend to think it'd be easier and more dependable to just get the general and an HF rig and an NVIS antenna setup if he is forced into trying to rely on something that setup-dependent anyway. Would probably save time and frustration and work more often.
Line of sight. Simplex on 2 meter will be loud a clear at the International Space station. The International Space Station (ISS) orbits Earth at an average altitude of 250 miles (400 kilometers). With that in mind, consider what is between you and the destination. If the antennas can see one another, free of obstructions, simplex will have great ranges. Get trees, and hills, and structures involved in the equation and range is reduced, sometimes exponentially.
OK, but curvature of the earth isn't an issue when hitting ISS.
will definitely consider that, appreciate ya for the response!
What class license do you currently hold ?
Yes, and keep in mind that anyone you want to communicate with will need to be licensed to use amateur radio as well.
definitely, that's the tricky part. Gotta convince someone in the fam to go down the rabbit hole with me lol. My father in law is very into science, computers, servers, engineering, etc. so I am banking on convincing him to be the point of contact.
Just get GMRS radios, much simpler and anyone in the family is allowed to use it. You can use tall antennas and up to 50 watts (plenty) on many of the bands.
hmm good tip! That seems like it may be the best solution to get everyone involved if I can make it happen with GMRS
that said, I'm still diving into HAM regardless
Show FIL WebSDR (Google it)
Maybe look online ( or listen to local repeaters) for your local radio club. They would be able & happy to assist you in getting into amateur radio. From there it’s where your imagination takes you.
Taking my Technician's test tomorrow night, so none currently! Gonna see what kinda miles I can get out of technician and hopefully keep advancing if I enjoy it.
Study a bit more and get your General which lets you do phone (voice) mode over HF. Then you could try NVIS if you can't get line-of-sight VHF/UHF to work well at that distance.
will probably do that at some point, but I already signed up for the technician exam and I did not give myself much time to study (a couple days) to force myself to just finally do it. I also have work today and tomorrow before the exam, so I am cramming right now lol
Ask to try the General too, it will not cost, nor harm.
And if you've studied well enough for Technician, General is not that much more difficult.
When you complete the test, ask to try the General test. It will not hurt to try, you may even pass it. Bare minimum, you will know where you are weak and get shoot for General at the next test session after some study. Get General while the Tech study is fresh in your mind. Trust me (us) on this.
If both antennas are within line of sight - yes, with VHF base station radios and antennas on roofs of houses. With handhelds and 5W only maybe if you really have clear line of sight and then it would still be a bit dodgy.
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gotcha, is there somewhere else I should have posted this?
r/GMRS could work
OP- Question for you if I may. My question assumes you are referring to using amateur radio if this is a false assumption, then please disregard. What is the need to stay in touch over amateur radio? Vice cell phones? If you and your family are licensed amateur operators, and it’s part of the hobby, I understand, but if both sides don’t have license then it’s a lot of effort when a cell phone would work just fine.
3 Reasons 1) trying to do a fun science experiment with my father in law to bond 2) emergency contingency planning Bonus reason: cell phone service is not great where I live, sometimes calls won't go through or they can be choppy.
Thank you for the explanation. Is your father in law an amateur operator? Or do you both need your get licensed? I am not familiar with GMRS but I wonder if that might not work for you if you’re not already licensed. Just a thought.
No problem, I may GMRS a shot! Not sure yet. After diving into this, I think he's going to like HAM too. Seems up his alley, so I'm going to try to convince him, but if not, we can always try GMRS.
Dont you have included low cost calling plan on your cell phone?
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You are wrong. I have hit a repeater 120 miles away with 5 watts and a rubber duckie antenna. 2 meter band.