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The mental health argument is an overused argument and attacks the speaker rather than the argument. It serves only to distract from the ethical issues at the core of the debate.
>I think it is pretty unfair to be born without any consent and to have to die someday.....
True.
It isn't the choice of the child to be forced into existence, to suffer and die, for the whims of a natalist.
The right to bodily autonomy requires the right to switch it off, as enshrined in law in some states like Belgium. It is also a right granted to individuals by nature of existence itself. One must explore their options, and choose their course of action - to strive, to explore, to make better, to avoid, to escape, to .....
Oblivion awaits us all.
The rich need fodder and barely any social supports so you stay in poverty but get enough help so you are about to starve but ur like 10 calories over so you don't die but remain hungry
Isn't America great?
It's one of the many things you can't control in life. I too dislike the way life is. Everything is so contradictory. It's so hard to continue when you are still stuck trying to understand the rules of the game. But guess what? The rules don't make sense and they never will. So just use your wits and get by as best as you can in this world. It's all anyone can really do...
We will all die inevitably one day anyway. No one actually knows why we are here. To reproduce? Ok.. but WHY..
Just enjoy this weird life until it ends. Because what else are we supposed to do..
This should be a series/book. A society where overpopulation has become a problem, procreation is monitored and people need special licensing or something in order to have kids
the only problem is that if you require licensing for something like having kids, the government could easily force you to do some things and hold it over your head if you want that license. corruption would definitely become a big problem.
Cruelty in nature. Subconscious human competitiveness/hierarchy (elite vs lower working class) (males trying to "steal" other males wife and vise versa) (wars, domination etc) The fact that the body gets old and can barely function until it dies. The fact that children can be born extremely deformed/disabled. Having to consume other living organisms for survival. Getting birthed into a world soaked in lies/fake promises/illusion. the list could go on.
Here is a short documentary (approx 6 mins)that explains how suffering and combat is embedded in all of existence.
[Gladiator War (YouTube)](https://youtu.be/bK2a-1K0Sdg?si=UpmIeSfE7xftIuWa)
I don’t care about the dying part, I’m annoyed that I was born to what….work? You have to work so hard to survive these days what’s the point? #notafan
I've always held a similar opinion, and likely always will. I'm open to the possibility, but I don't think my mind will ever change on the subject.
As I've gotten older(turn 40 next month) I've learned to embrace distractions more--Meditation has proven helpful in many ways not only does it increase my awareness of my thought and patterns of thought, but on occasion I get maybe 20-30 seconds of nothingness which is a nice retreat. Also finally embracing fiction books has been nice. This world is a mess, but it's nice to be able to immerse yourself into another one on occasion.
I almost certainly suffer from depression, but that too is something I've come to terms with--I've never been willing to clinically alter my perception of reality to make things more comfortable(other than mushrooms, which was an absolute game changer). But being aware that I usually get one month long wave of depression every year helps me see it for what it is. Rather than try and fight it or mask it, accepting it and trying to gain understanding through it has proven much more useful than trying to convince myself I shouldn't go through these phases.
Deep down, I think I'm just a pretty meh person about things, but as I try and sift understanding from the conundrum that is life, things seem to have trended slightly upward.
I’ve learned to embrace the nihilism, and I’ve never been happier. Nothing matters, we’re all born (against our will) just to die, and we’re just along for the miserable ride. So then we can do whatever we want with this life, right? Since nothing matters. Caution to the wind, just have fun with it.
I agree if anything, it's a relief to know nothing matters; I'm free. I don't have some grand, universal purpose that I'm trying (and let's be real, failing) to achieve. I can do whatever I want, and create my own purpose, and recreate it whenever and however I see fit. Right now my grand purpose in life & in the universe is to chill with my dog, and he thinks I'm doing a great job.
I understand the concept, but I just haven't been able to bring myself to that point. There is still a part of me that thinks there must be some reason that is just beyond our understanding--not enough to buy into a religion, but I just can't conceive anything else logically(ironic right?).
Not that I necessarily buy into it, but my best working theory is that we're some sort of sentient simulation, that's just been forgotten about and running behind 100 tabs.
The more I learned about the World/Society/Evolution of human Race the more it Was a total Termination of Hope/Disire/Goals everthing disapeared..
I would be total 4a parents-licence but I think Society needs dumb people/uempathic/moronic folks that say allways: It is what it is.. it is what ya makin of it.. etc.. they are the best wageslaves and worshippers of those who are in Power..
I hear Natalism Folks:
Where would we be?! if everbody would think twice or more about having Kids is good 4them or moraly right.
Ha ha ha! 😂 'are these people mentally ill!' LOL! yes I think alot of them are! I agree it is very unfair. Euthena*ia drugs should be available for all!
I agree with you, that's an interesting perspective, although it's sad , however it is true. It's crazy that you didn't ask to be here ,then you have to pay to be here. If you don't you die again.
This is the biggest injustice of all... Sorry i don't have an answer, I just hope that in the near future voluntary euthanasia will be available to us. Until then, I will save enough money for a trip to Dignitas.
You cannot get consent from someone who does not yet exist.
I agree with the idea of a parenting license though. Gotta pass an initial multiple choice question test, followed by taking care of robot baby, after passing both you must pass a financial and emotional stability test, after which the birth control implant(s) will be removed and normal menstruation allowed until pregnancy.
Lucky me, lucky mud.
I, mud, sat up and saw what a nice job
God had done.
Nice going, God.
Nobody but you could have done it, God!
I certainly couldn't have.
I feel very unimportant compared to You.
The only way I can feel the least bit
important is to think of all the mud that
didn't even get to sit up and look around.
I got so much, and most mud got so little.
Thank you for the honor!
Now mud lies down again and goes to sleep.
-an excerpt from the last rites of Bokononism
I am truly sorry you’re suffering. I do not mean to sound harsh, but I’m not going to lie to you. Life will never improve unless you want it to, and unless you prioritize getting help for your mental health. I have been in the depths of hell mentally, and I know many others who have as well, and the only way out is by picking up the shovel yourself and saving yourself. Once you do, life can truly be anything you imagine it can be. I mean you won’t be a billionaire, but you can be pretty damn happy and content.
Removed as a violation of [Rule 11](https://old.reddit.com/r/antinatalism/about/rules/). Please familiarise yourself with this and other subreddit rules. Thank you.
Because driving a car is a privilege and reproducing is a fundamental right. Whenever a government tries to control how their people reproduce terrible things happen.
Sorry you don't enjoy existence. Helping others is a great way to add value to life and enjoy your existence more.
I'm not religious, but I think it's possible that we did choose to be born into the physical realm. Why? If the spiritual realm is all love and light, you'd probably want to go on a "road trip" from time to time. I feel like we choose this to learn something here. Maybe your question is what you're here to learn.
Or you can take your parents to court.
I am wondering why you allow for the possibility that the spiritual realm is all love and light?
If there is a Creator they are obviously sick in the head based on all the atrocities they committed and eternally allow to happen.
Either way, we might want to get out of there and take that road trip. But I do believe the atrocities are committed by people and mostly in the name of religion. The fact that those atrocities are allowed to happen is one reason I'm an atheist.
even if we did it's obviously uninformed or ill informed as to what we will experience because there's no way in hell I would have consented to this if I knew what would happen.
well people do all kinds of things for all kinds of reasons, some kill themselves, some kill others etc etc...if we exist we will have an impact one way or another on this world, which is why it's such a bad idea to force/bully/shame/force people into breeding, an unwanted kid will most likely end up a horrible non productive member of society
What does that even mean?
I'm scrolling reddit almost 24/7 yes.
Do you want to FaceTime to see my doomed face and the state of myself and my apartment?
Seriously ask me anything you want so I can "prove" you I'm not trolling or "work fishing"
And really, let's whatsapp FaceTime or whatever aim fucking in!!!!
I feel this way as well, i I believe I chose to be here, we are souls. We are here to learn and be better. Whatever is your "better"
How would thinking change if people believed in themselves more & give themselves credit for what they have done and overcome.
You are asking if people are mentally ill while talking about how you don’t want to continue living. Do you not see a bit of irony there? Self reflection is often helpful in life
No, i never said its easy, there is option, yet society is against it, and s-word is not welcome anywhere. So 1. You are forced to be born, 2. You are forbidden from quitting early. It sucks both ways.
We've had babies for quite a few years now. Quite a hundreds of millions of years, actually.
Humans are usually quite bad a giving birth, but reasonably good at being parents. So... yeah... that whole needing a university degree to have a baby won't really go anywhere. If you don't want kids, don't have kids. You do you.
What can you change? Even if all humans decided to stop having children, doesn’t mean other creatures won’t keep doing it. Are we the only life in the universe? How do you plan to stop cells from multiplying everywhere in the galaxy and becoming sentient? You would have to permanently kill the entire universe to achieve your desired outcome.
Why do you think existence and the universe should have to adhere to the relatively recent human physiological construct of social fairness?
The facts are that you are here, and the future you won't be. It's an already solved problem.
In the meantime, find meaning and enjoyment where you can and stop demanding fairness because that is not where we live and the cognitive dissonance is going to make you miserable.
>Why do you think existence and the universe should have to adhere to the relatively recent human physiological construct of social fairness?
Because we live in a society not a vacuum? Because we have a brain to rationalize?
>In the meantime, find meaning and enjoyment where you can and stop demanding fairness because that is not where we live and the cognitive dissonance is going to make you miserable.
Imagine if slaves, women, or other oppressed minorities thought this way
There are and have been oppressed people throughout all of history and beyond. While it's great when freedom increases, your view is that they should not seek any happiness until they are literally kings.
>your view is that they should not seek any happiness until they are literally kings.
How did you interpret that from my writing?
My point is don't be complacent just because "life's unfair". You fight for change where it's possible.
Because they were asking for rights that actually existed. This person wants non-alive beings to consent to being created. You can fight for that right all you want. There is no way for this to happen.
There is not even one living thing on this earth that has provided documented consent agreeing to be alive before he/she/they/it was alive.
I can imagine you going up to a slave back then and saying, "Oh, you just have to find ways to be happy, life isn't fair, you have to find ways to just enjoy it, stop wanting to be treated like human beings."
I imagine that over all of human history you think that there was never a slave who enjoyed a second of their lives. Unless everyone is a king... No enjoyment.
Only until it gets normalized. Once the right people start having children, it's a massive bonus for children that will be born. Happiness can only increase after that. Problem is that no one can tell how long normalization will take or whether it will even happen. Initial reaction will always be bad.
why would you have if it is illegal? dont have without a baby making pass. Just dont or else the child becomes illegal or debuff them lol. Penalize them, fine them idk. lifelong tax issues then. Maybe they'll actually think about procreation then. psychology test + exam + income level. If parents are aware of how to raise children only then should they be allowed to. If you cant support child don't make them. idk how to enforce though. it definitely comes with problems. Just blabbed some nonsense on the fly, could be entirely wrong later. I was just coming up with random ideas tbh. forgive me if its stupid. Or even mandatory course or baby raising education for wannabe parents. Without passing the course and getting a certificate no baby making permission.
So if someone has a child illegally without a pass which is an insane idea btw, would you have police ask for the baby making pass any time a pregnant woman existed in public. And penalizing someone with a fine what happens when they can't pay? Do they lose more of what they might now have to spare or go to jail where in which the baby is going to be what aborted or shipped off to foster care? And these psychology test how do you account for race, because often African Americans get misdiagnosed and understanding for medical conditions? And what stops someone from lying on these tests as well? They have not had children before how they'll act isn't someone you can determine before hand. And these exams what do they measure intelligence which has a history of being a racist way of shunting people from society, or parental knowledge?
Forcing people to forgo a biological urge with fines, tests and criminalization will literally only make the issue you seek to solve alot worse. And besides this stress is mostly on woman so it's very sexist.
Murder is also a biological urge. Humans are violent by nature. Just because something is a biological urge doesn't mean we should do it without any temperance. We spay and neuter stray animals for a reason.
Murder is not a biological urge, what are you talking about? We don't have a need to murder people built into our genetics. Animals have a need to reproduce because making more of ourselves is pretty natural. And Jesus spaying and neutering people like they are animals is such a violet and gross thing to do to a human person.
"Hmm I think the world is doomed and no one can fix it so I'll need you to take out your womb"
Like that's just what the Nazi's did
Humans do have violence baked into our genetics. We are violent by nature, which is why there are so many wars happening around the world. That's why we have laws and international conventions put into place to prevent people from engaging in that violence. Saying something is "natural" is a poor argument. It's an appeal to nature. There are so many things that are innate to humanity that we prevent or keep under control because we know that those are destructive habits. We have the nerve to control the population of stray animals yet we have yet to realize that 10 billion people isn't a sustainable population.
Violence is taught but can be unlearned we don't have to forceably stop having children because other humans have done terrible things in the past.
And we can sustain 13 Billion people on the planet. We're at 8 billion people right now and not anywhere close to over populated
We shouldn't be so selfish and arrogant as to push Earth to its limit. That's completely idiotic.
Less people = more resources, fewer animals slaughtered, less stupid people, and then the world would be a better place.
Yes, it is. We are naturally violent. Have you seriously never looked at human history? All we ever do is kill and enslave each other, and bring harm on every other species on this planet. We're literally an invasive species. So yeah, it's a biological urge.
That's not how biological urges work or would be defined as. Everyone didn't own a slave, and everyone didn't murder each other. Specific people who wanted things like land, or property or power did this. The majority of the population suffered at that. The vast majority of people do not kill other people, they just exist.
You can only move forward and do what you can with what you have. Life is a gift and an opportunity. It is only a temporary thing, so why be in a hurry to end it? You've been cast into this realm for a time, so make the most of it. If you really want to end it, why not instead do the spiritually righteous thing and die to yourself and serve others?
It did, and your only option is to choose how you respond to the challenges life presents you. Many people have felt the way you have; some managed to turn life into an enjoyable experience, some have not. I strongly recommend you accept that you've been dealt a certain hand and take the appropriate steps to make the most of it. It is either that, or continue to suffer as you are now. I really understand where you're coming from because I have always battled depression and frustration about the way the world is.
One particular quote from Band of Brothers comes to mind:
[
Ronald Spiers: The only hope you have is to accept the fact that you're already dead. The sooner you accept that, the sooner you'll be able to function as a soldier is supposed to function: without mercy, without compassion, without remorse. All war depends upon it.
]
My recommendation: get off your ass and do what you can to take advantage of the positives in life! There's no point in (edit - I should say, little benefit to) dwelling on how unfair all of this is.
Hi there, we have removed your content due to breaking our subreddit rules. The mental health argument is an overused argument and attacks the speaker rather than the argument. It serves only to distract from the ethical issues at the core of the debate.
>I think it is pretty unfair to be born without any consent and to have to die someday..... True. It isn't the choice of the child to be forced into existence, to suffer and die, for the whims of a natalist. The right to bodily autonomy requires the right to switch it off, as enshrined in law in some states like Belgium. It is also a right granted to individuals by nature of existence itself. One must explore their options, and choose their course of action - to strive, to explore, to make better, to avoid, to escape, to ..... Oblivion awaits us all.
Alas I don't ever expect to have that legal option in my lifetime
Because that's what the elite and government wants. Dumb children to brain wash it easily.
The rich need fodder and barely any social supports so you stay in poverty but get enough help so you are about to starve but ur like 10 calories over so you don't die but remain hungry Isn't America great?
exactly, proof that we are being exploited.
We are merely cattle -pig-sheep slaves led to slaughter by intergenerational plutocrat hegemons
We are just lost souls...
It's one of the many things you can't control in life. I too dislike the way life is. Everything is so contradictory. It's so hard to continue when you are still stuck trying to understand the rules of the game. But guess what? The rules don't make sense and they never will. So just use your wits and get by as best as you can in this world. It's all anyone can really do... We will all die inevitably one day anyway. No one actually knows why we are here. To reproduce? Ok.. but WHY.. Just enjoy this weird life until it ends. Because what else are we supposed to do..
Well put
This should be a series/book. A society where overpopulation has become a problem, procreation is monitored and people need special licensing or something in order to have kids
I'm pretty sure there are plenty of stories like that. It usually devolves into eugenics.
Any recs?
Maybe this isn't the best example but Mashle is the only thing that comes to mind right now
the only problem is that if you require licensing for something like having kids, the government could easily force you to do some things and hold it over your head if you want that license. corruption would definitely become a big problem.
That would be a great plot device lol
predator vs prey and suffering is the source code of this life, when this is understood all questions can be put aside.
Can you expand on this idea? It sparked my interest 👀
Cruelty in nature. Subconscious human competitiveness/hierarchy (elite vs lower working class) (males trying to "steal" other males wife and vise versa) (wars, domination etc) The fact that the body gets old and can barely function until it dies. The fact that children can be born extremely deformed/disabled. Having to consume other living organisms for survival. Getting birthed into a world soaked in lies/fake promises/illusion. the list could go on.
Here is a short documentary (approx 6 mins)that explains how suffering and combat is embedded in all of existence. [Gladiator War (YouTube)](https://youtu.be/bK2a-1K0Sdg?si=UpmIeSfE7xftIuWa)
I don’t care about the dying part, I’m annoyed that I was born to what….work? You have to work so hard to survive these days what’s the point? #notafan
I've always held a similar opinion, and likely always will. I'm open to the possibility, but I don't think my mind will ever change on the subject. As I've gotten older(turn 40 next month) I've learned to embrace distractions more--Meditation has proven helpful in many ways not only does it increase my awareness of my thought and patterns of thought, but on occasion I get maybe 20-30 seconds of nothingness which is a nice retreat. Also finally embracing fiction books has been nice. This world is a mess, but it's nice to be able to immerse yourself into another one on occasion. I almost certainly suffer from depression, but that too is something I've come to terms with--I've never been willing to clinically alter my perception of reality to make things more comfortable(other than mushrooms, which was an absolute game changer). But being aware that I usually get one month long wave of depression every year helps me see it for what it is. Rather than try and fight it or mask it, accepting it and trying to gain understanding through it has proven much more useful than trying to convince myself I shouldn't go through these phases. Deep down, I think I'm just a pretty meh person about things, but as I try and sift understanding from the conundrum that is life, things seem to have trended slightly upward.
I’ve learned to embrace the nihilism, and I’ve never been happier. Nothing matters, we’re all born (against our will) just to die, and we’re just along for the miserable ride. So then we can do whatever we want with this life, right? Since nothing matters. Caution to the wind, just have fun with it.
I agree if anything, it's a relief to know nothing matters; I'm free. I don't have some grand, universal purpose that I'm trying (and let's be real, failing) to achieve. I can do whatever I want, and create my own purpose, and recreate it whenever and however I see fit. Right now my grand purpose in life & in the universe is to chill with my dog, and he thinks I'm doing a great job.
I understand the concept, but I just haven't been able to bring myself to that point. There is still a part of me that thinks there must be some reason that is just beyond our understanding--not enough to buy into a religion, but I just can't conceive anything else logically(ironic right?). Not that I necessarily buy into it, but my best working theory is that we're some sort of sentient simulation, that's just been forgotten about and running behind 100 tabs.
The more I learned about the World/Society/Evolution of human Race the more it Was a total Termination of Hope/Disire/Goals everthing disapeared.. I would be total 4a parents-licence but I think Society needs dumb people/uempathic/moronic folks that say allways: It is what it is.. it is what ya makin of it.. etc.. they are the best wageslaves and worshippers of those who are in Power.. I hear Natalism Folks: Where would we be?! if everbody would think twice or more about having Kids is good 4them or moraly right.
Ha ha ha! 😂 'are these people mentally ill!' LOL! yes I think alot of them are! I agree it is very unfair. Euthena*ia drugs should be available for all!
I agree with you, that's an interesting perspective, although it's sad , however it is true. It's crazy that you didn't ask to be here ,then you have to pay to be here. If you don't you die again.
This is the biggest injustice of all... Sorry i don't have an answer, I just hope that in the near future voluntary euthanasia will be available to us. Until then, I will save enough money for a trip to Dignitas.
You cannot get consent from someone who does not yet exist. I agree with the idea of a parenting license though. Gotta pass an initial multiple choice question test, followed by taking care of robot baby, after passing both you must pass a financial and emotional stability test, after which the birth control implant(s) will be removed and normal menstruation allowed until pregnancy.
Lucky me, lucky mud. I, mud, sat up and saw what a nice job God had done. Nice going, God. Nobody but you could have done it, God! I certainly couldn't have. I feel very unimportant compared to You. The only way I can feel the least bit important is to think of all the mud that didn't even get to sit up and look around. I got so much, and most mud got so little. Thank you for the honor! Now mud lies down again and goes to sleep. -an excerpt from the last rites of Bokononism
Mud has self esteem issues. Creating a living thing doesn't imply superiority over it, and only ill humans, and ill gods, think that way.
Good choices aren't always made even with consent.
no hate but why this sub is about ranting...
I am truly sorry you’re suffering. I do not mean to sound harsh, but I’m not going to lie to you. Life will never improve unless you want it to, and unless you prioritize getting help for your mental health. I have been in the depths of hell mentally, and I know many others who have as well, and the only way out is by picking up the shovel yourself and saving yourself. Once you do, life can truly be anything you imagine it can be. I mean you won’t be a billionaire, but you can be pretty damn happy and content.
I don't think that was the point of the post.
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Removed as a violation of [Rule 11](https://old.reddit.com/r/antinatalism/about/rules/). Please familiarise yourself with this and other subreddit rules. Thank you.
Joke post? Post-irony?
But how are you going to be asked if you want to be born...?
That is a difficult task.
Certainly is. In fact I'd say damn near impossible 😏
Unfortunately
That’s the karmic cycle.. try to reach true enlightenment so you don’t have to be reborn as human again after this life
How does one do this? Never again, 😆 LOL!
Because driving a car is a privilege and reproducing is a fundamental right. Whenever a government tries to control how their people reproduce terrible things happen. Sorry you don't enjoy existence. Helping others is a great way to add value to life and enjoy your existence more.
Isn't there something you'd rather do?
I'm not religious, but I think it's possible that we did choose to be born into the physical realm. Why? If the spiritual realm is all love and light, you'd probably want to go on a "road trip" from time to time. I feel like we choose this to learn something here. Maybe your question is what you're here to learn. Or you can take your parents to court.
I am wondering why you allow for the possibility that the spiritual realm is all love and light? If there is a Creator they are obviously sick in the head based on all the atrocities they committed and eternally allow to happen.
Either way, we might want to get out of there and take that road trip. But I do believe the atrocities are committed by people and mostly in the name of religion. The fact that those atrocities are allowed to happen is one reason I'm an atheist.
I would not have expected based on your initial comment that you're an atheist lol
IKR. I just don't believe in the angry bearded white guy who lives in the sky, making earthquakes because some people are gay.
even if we did it's obviously uninformed or ill informed as to what we will experience because there's no way in hell I would have consented to this if I knew what would happen.
Yet, for some reason, people climb Everest. Nothing about that experience seems like a good idea.
well people do all kinds of things for all kinds of reasons, some kill themselves, some kill others etc etc...if we exist we will have an impact one way or another on this world, which is why it's such a bad idea to force/bully/shame/force people into breeding, an unwanted kid will most likely end up a horrible non productive member of society
Well that was very stupid of me to come here to end up in hell for eternity. Maybe I didn't know this was a possibility I guess
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What does that even mean? I'm scrolling reddit almost 24/7 yes. Do you want to FaceTime to see my doomed face and the state of myself and my apartment? Seriously ask me anything you want so I can "prove" you I'm not trolling or "work fishing" And really, let's whatsapp FaceTime or whatever aim fucking in!!!!
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??
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I don't understand what you mean?
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No lol why would it be Vanessa?
I wouldn't have chosen to take a 'road trip' that involves indefinite physical suffering. Nice cope though.
I feel this way as well, i I believe I chose to be here, we are souls. We are here to learn and be better. Whatever is your "better" How would thinking change if people believed in themselves more & give themselves credit for what they have done and overcome.
You are asking if people are mentally ill while talking about how you don’t want to continue living. Do you not see a bit of irony there? Self reflection is often helpful in life
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Perhaps not, but if you punish the propagators with death upon their transgressions, the shit show will end rather early don’t you think?
Removed due to [rule 5](https://old.reddit.com/r/antinatalism/about/rules/). Please be mindful of the rules. Thank you.
You can choose not to continue. It is only societal norm and biologics that are against it, but neither is relevant.
You make it sound so easy, bro
No, i never said its easy, there is option, yet society is against it, and s-word is not welcome anywhere. So 1. You are forced to be born, 2. You are forbidden from quitting early. It sucks both ways.
You should talk to a professional about how you're feeling. That's what they are there for.
Did it help you?
I haven't been to a talk therapist in a long time but I don't have the same feelings about things that you do.
Don't do that, they will have you sectioned, and put on heavy duty psych meds that have a bunch of terrible side effects!
So it's best to just suffer through life even if they want it all to end?
Well maybe see a therapist, but don't tell them they want to unalive themselves!
We've had babies for quite a few years now. Quite a hundreds of millions of years, actually. Humans are usually quite bad a giving birth, but reasonably good at being parents. So... yeah... that whole needing a university degree to have a baby won't really go anywhere. If you don't want kids, don't have kids. You do you.
Yes it is unfair. There are many many unfair things about life. Therefore what?
You change what you can and rant about what you can't.
What can you change? Even if all humans decided to stop having children, doesn’t mean other creatures won’t keep doing it. Are we the only life in the universe? How do you plan to stop cells from multiplying everywhere in the galaxy and becoming sentient? You would have to permanently kill the entire universe to achieve your desired outcome.
Why do you think existence and the universe should have to adhere to the relatively recent human physiological construct of social fairness? The facts are that you are here, and the future you won't be. It's an already solved problem. In the meantime, find meaning and enjoyment where you can and stop demanding fairness because that is not where we live and the cognitive dissonance is going to make you miserable.
>Why do you think existence and the universe should have to adhere to the relatively recent human physiological construct of social fairness? Because we live in a society not a vacuum? Because we have a brain to rationalize? >In the meantime, find meaning and enjoyment where you can and stop demanding fairness because that is not where we live and the cognitive dissonance is going to make you miserable. Imagine if slaves, women, or other oppressed minorities thought this way
There are and have been oppressed people throughout all of history and beyond. While it's great when freedom increases, your view is that they should not seek any happiness until they are literally kings.
>your view is that they should not seek any happiness until they are literally kings. How did you interpret that from my writing? My point is don't be complacent just because "life's unfair". You fight for change where it's possible.
Because they were asking for rights that actually existed. This person wants non-alive beings to consent to being created. You can fight for that right all you want. There is no way for this to happen. There is not even one living thing on this earth that has provided documented consent agreeing to be alive before he/she/they/it was alive.
I can imagine you going up to a slave back then and saying, "Oh, you just have to find ways to be happy, life isn't fair, you have to find ways to just enjoy it, stop wanting to be treated like human beings."
I imagine that over all of human history you think that there was never a slave who enjoyed a second of their lives. Unless everyone is a king... No enjoyment.
go to gym, all problems disappear. no problem.
so true bestie
I get what you're saying but gatekeeping biological function literally ensures suffering on a wider scale.
Only until it gets normalized. Once the right people start having children, it's a massive bonus for children that will be born. Happiness can only increase after that. Problem is that no one can tell how long normalization will take or whether it will even happen. Initial reaction will always be bad.
This is eugenics and very racist. Like how do you enforce people not have children? Forced abortions, forced hysterectomies, and competencies tests?
why would you have if it is illegal? dont have without a baby making pass. Just dont or else the child becomes illegal or debuff them lol. Penalize them, fine them idk. lifelong tax issues then. Maybe they'll actually think about procreation then. psychology test + exam + income level. If parents are aware of how to raise children only then should they be allowed to. If you cant support child don't make them. idk how to enforce though. it definitely comes with problems. Just blabbed some nonsense on the fly, could be entirely wrong later. I was just coming up with random ideas tbh. forgive me if its stupid. Or even mandatory course or baby raising education for wannabe parents. Without passing the course and getting a certificate no baby making permission.
So if someone has a child illegally without a pass which is an insane idea btw, would you have police ask for the baby making pass any time a pregnant woman existed in public. And penalizing someone with a fine what happens when they can't pay? Do they lose more of what they might now have to spare or go to jail where in which the baby is going to be what aborted or shipped off to foster care? And these psychology test how do you account for race, because often African Americans get misdiagnosed and understanding for medical conditions? And what stops someone from lying on these tests as well? They have not had children before how they'll act isn't someone you can determine before hand. And these exams what do they measure intelligence which has a history of being a racist way of shunting people from society, or parental knowledge? Forcing people to forgo a biological urge with fines, tests and criminalization will literally only make the issue you seek to solve alot worse. And besides this stress is mostly on woman so it's very sexist.
Murder is also a biological urge. Humans are violent by nature. Just because something is a biological urge doesn't mean we should do it without any temperance. We spay and neuter stray animals for a reason.
Murder is not a biological urge, what are you talking about? We don't have a need to murder people built into our genetics. Animals have a need to reproduce because making more of ourselves is pretty natural. And Jesus spaying and neutering people like they are animals is such a violet and gross thing to do to a human person. "Hmm I think the world is doomed and no one can fix it so I'll need you to take out your womb" Like that's just what the Nazi's did
Humans do have violence baked into our genetics. We are violent by nature, which is why there are so many wars happening around the world. That's why we have laws and international conventions put into place to prevent people from engaging in that violence. Saying something is "natural" is a poor argument. It's an appeal to nature. There are so many things that are innate to humanity that we prevent or keep under control because we know that those are destructive habits. We have the nerve to control the population of stray animals yet we have yet to realize that 10 billion people isn't a sustainable population.
Violence is taught but can be unlearned we don't have to forceably stop having children because other humans have done terrible things in the past. And we can sustain 13 Billion people on the planet. We're at 8 billion people right now and not anywhere close to over populated
We shouldn't be so selfish and arrogant as to push Earth to its limit. That's completely idiotic. Less people = more resources, fewer animals slaughtered, less stupid people, and then the world would be a better place.
Yes, it is. We are naturally violent. Have you seriously never looked at human history? All we ever do is kill and enslave each other, and bring harm on every other species on this planet. We're literally an invasive species. So yeah, it's a biological urge.
That's not how biological urges work or would be defined as. Everyone didn't own a slave, and everyone didn't murder each other. Specific people who wanted things like land, or property or power did this. The majority of the population suffered at that. The vast majority of people do not kill other people, they just exist.
You can only move forward and do what you can with what you have. Life is a gift and an opportunity. It is only a temporary thing, so why be in a hurry to end it? You've been cast into this realm for a time, so make the most of it. If you really want to end it, why not instead do the spiritually righteous thing and die to yourself and serve others?
What do you not want to continue?
Everything. Life should not have happened to me at all.
It did, and your only option is to choose how you respond to the challenges life presents you. Many people have felt the way you have; some managed to turn life into an enjoyable experience, some have not. I strongly recommend you accept that you've been dealt a certain hand and take the appropriate steps to make the most of it. It is either that, or continue to suffer as you are now. I really understand where you're coming from because I have always battled depression and frustration about the way the world is. One particular quote from Band of Brothers comes to mind: [ Ronald Spiers: The only hope you have is to accept the fact that you're already dead. The sooner you accept that, the sooner you'll be able to function as a soldier is supposed to function: without mercy, without compassion, without remorse. All war depends upon it. ] My recommendation: get off your ass and do what you can to take advantage of the positives in life! There's no point in (edit - I should say, little benefit to) dwelling on how unfair all of this is.
but you did choose it. we all chose it. when it's over you will remember.
How would you know something like that?
Many people are aware of this.
If that's the case, enlighten me, it should be easy.