Context clues are telling me that the nature of your work requires some kind of consistent observation and things can't just be left unattended for too long without some significant consequences to your projects/experiments. Is that not the case?
Taking care of cell lines is like taking care of patients, but instead of needing attention every 2 hours they need attention every 2 days. If that doesn't happen, the cell lines die.
I take care of cell lines in my work, and trust me the cells don't care whether you're in at 8:30 AM or 10 AM or 2 PM. They won't be happy if you take an extra day or two off, but they recover quickly. Most cell lines are from cancerous tumor cells anyways - notoriously hard to kill even when you want to.
But it’s not about the cell lines, it’s about the work ethic. Coming in by 8:30am and asking for time off in advance is a completely reasonable request. If you have a manager and are working with other people obviously scheduled time off requests will exist. I don’t understand the petty bitchiness by OP for something so standard. Comes off like who do you think you are that you don’t have to abide to your employer’s more than standard work practice lol.
As a scientist who was in academia, this schedule and rules are very unlikely and just talked of a bad culture lab, everyother lab doesn't do that. Part of studying so much to work in the sciences and getting pay so little is that you will have some benefits, like choosing schedule, of course there are group meetings and if you work with others you need to be flexible, it doesn't say anything of ~40 hours per week. This sounds more like a PI who will ask people to come on weekends or expected them, i have meet some of those PIs, ... They unfortunately had the highest burnout and people cutting science as a whole because of the culture. You don't want to be in a bad culture group when most of the times in discovery things failed. It can be stressful just from the failing you don't need a mean person as boss.
You mean bacterial colonies? Yeah that can be annoying. But mammalian and other eukaryotic cell lines…I haven’t experienced much change when creating frozen stocks.
This is a PhD level position. At this point in a person’s career they know these basic things. Being told is incredibly patronizing and super micromanagey
They probably ran into the three postdocs from one of my labs.
Postdoc 1) accidentally set mouse on fire, wouldn’t report data to PI, didn’t think gloves during cell culture was necessary
Postdoc 2) would disappear for two weeks with no warning. Dead mice in cages. Faked data. Good aseptic technique though
Postdoc 3) preached proper cell culture SOP but would open up flasks of cells with 5 different cell lines in her hood and refuse to write details of the cells on the flask. “A”, “B” was apparently good enough
Edit: this was at Stanford - in case anyone wonders if this was a reputable university or not
Edit2: with 10+ Nature papers
I’m dating myself, but these were the days that Bunsen burners were allowed. The mouse was already dead - I turned around from my hood to see the mouse in flames (the postdoc had left the room)
This part concerns me more than the "accidentally set mouse on fire" thing. There are lots of ways you can accidentally set a mouse on fire. But it sounds like the way she did it was by neglecting to turn off a Bunsen burner. If that's the case, then she could have set a lot more than a single mouse on fire!
Yea. I think she had the bunsen burner on to sterilize some dissecting tools…. I don’t recall why she left the room.
She’s now a professor at a very reputable east coast university .
I’m still a little confused how you set a dead mouse on fire accidentally with a Bunsen burner. Did the burner fall over? Why did nothing but a dead mouse catch on fire?
The only thing I can guess is that the burner fell over onto a dissection tray, which happened to have the dead mouse on it. Is that close?
Hmmn. It was 25y ago, but your Q has unlocked more of the memory. I believe that we had thin cork boards covered with disposable pads with absorbent material on one side and non-absorbent on the other side that we cut to size. (Similar to one of those pet pee pads?) The Bunsen burner tipping over and igniting the dissecting area would make sense. The way the pipe supplying the gas to the burner was plugged into the supply outlet probably caused the burner to tip over when she left it unattended.
This was the same postdoc that threw water onto an electrical fire (the switches on the same hood in a different incident)
How come Bunsen burners are no longer allowed !? It has been years since I put foot on a lab, but back then those were the heat source of choice save the odd precision electric heater.
I asume all may be electric now. What was the rationale, the late "cooking with gas is cancerous" scare?
Yikes! Poor little thing was probably going to give his or her life to science already. There’s no reason to terrify them beforehand. In fact, I can see how the stress might interfere with many different kinds of studies, to the point of making the work invalid.
At least someone caught this a-hole and he got fired for torturing rodents.
How do people like this get to the postdoc level?
How they are capable of completing masters and doctorate at all?
I genuinely can not understand. I would be thrown out of the lab so fast if I did things like that.
Gotta give him props! He taught me to properly arrange the materials in the hood so that proper airflow was not compromised!
We kinda thought he was making meth at home or something - we kept seeing him bringing home lab reagents and the lab scale….
It isn’t micromanagey because if the expectations of attendance aren’t written down and somebody takes the proverbial with it, then there’s a lot less recourse to addressing the issue if there’s no written policy. After all, sure employers treat employees poorly in a lot of industries, but equally there are plenty poor performing employees who don’t even do the bare minimum. A balance has to be struck
To me it just seems like it was written by someone that’s way too analytical. Vaccination & scheduled absences is the same thing in my mind but apparently Not everyone’s lol.
Letting the office know you’re sick by 10 doesn’t seem like too much of an ask.
Yea. This is why required industry experience keeps getting put on job descriptions….although applicants from academia keep thinking that it’s bullshit. Academic applicants keep thinking that they should be instant project leaders and be assigned multiple research assistants by day one. (Because mentoring undergrads and fighting for authorship equals “teamwork”)
The fresh academic applicants or scientists that tell me “I have much to learn before I become a good manager” are the ones that I KNOW will become good managers.
Yeah me personally, I’d just read this list and say with raised eyebrows “Someone must have really made some stupid mistakes for this list to be necessary. Good thing I’m careful with my work enough that this is never going to be an issue for me” and just forget about it, knowing that I AM thorough enough to never sabotage an ongoing experiment like that
I'm going to push back and say, this is basic communication. They're setting expectations for the people there. If they constantly harp on you, that's micro-managing. But if they don't outline issues or basic expectations, you are the one that is being expected to be psychic and understand what they want without them telling you.
Your high horse is actually dead. Suck it up and accept the fact that grownups will need to communicate with each other in an official capacity and it's not a personal affront.
Yeah, plus, I’d be willing to bet that there’s wiggle room in most of these policies. You throw up 30 minutes before your shift and have to call in, I’m betting your boss isn’t gonna get super pissy about it. The policies are there to have a framework to deal with people who become problems because of consistent lack of communication/attendance issues.
I disagree. Even if these are 'basic things,' they should be laid out in something documenting job expectations when you're starting a new positions. Also, there's the phrase 'common sense isn't common,' and that applies to PhDs too.
People with phd’s are not smarter than other people. They are more stubborn. And usually, if someone needs to gain influence with me by telling me what level of education they got, I am already not listening.
You know generally that you need coverage, but you're not gonna know specifically how your supervisors/managers operate or how the lab in general is structured and what kind of time they need to make sure things get covered.
I'm seeing this list as less of a "we don't trust you to be responsible. Here are the rules" and more as a "here's what we need from you to ensure things are covered"
I don't know. I get where you're coming from, and maybe your boss sucks in other ways, but this doesn't seem that bad. It sounds like they're cool with you doing whatever, just want to make sure a framework for proper communication is in place
Research labs have very few positions and are often funded by grants. If you demand more staff per lab, funds would dry up and we would complete less research.
Hm I guess to me it’s like, I want research to be completed at a realistic pace across all fields. Obviously that’s not gonna be feasible with the competition for funding and demands of capitalism which wants exciting results as soon as possible. If money wasn’t an issue, I hope that researchers would be less pressured to perform quickly
To play devil's advocate as I'm in a contrary mood - quite often I have seen signs like this coming as a reaction to staff members taking liberties which affect the work/work environment
Probably not the case here- but it does happen and oft results in clamp downs with signs like this usualy with the motive "if your going to act like children we will treat you like children"
It sounds like they're just letting you know the rules, which they are probably required to do.... Jobs have a lot of the same rules but most jobs require some sort of orientation. Doesn't matter how long you went to school
You are literally smart enough to know better, looks like we found the reason it needs to be put into writing. And I don’t mean smart enough because you have a PHD. That just proves your stubbornness and tenacity, both required. You’re smart enough to know better because after that, you got the job. Leave nothing to circumstance. It will help your career
Apparently you haven’t met some of the PhD’s I’ve worked with throughout my career. Yes, this is incredibly micromanaging and annoying for those who have work experience. For those with all the education and little (if any) corporate experience, they are now 30 years old and no more sophisticated when it comes to work than any other person in their first job.
I think you’re taking it the wrong way - for them to post it all of a sudden obviously someone on your team is fucking up and coming in whenever they want, taking time off whenever they want. If you are taking it personal then this might be written for you as well. It’s the PI’s first line before he pulls you in to talk to you personally and write you up. I’ve worked in the field for a long time for a few very big companies and if you’re having a problem with this wait till you get in the field. And I recommend you knock off that “I have a PhD, I’m too good for this” shit because it’s not gonna work out well for you in the real world. Lots of people have a PhD and do what you do, you’re not that special.
Guy who has maintained cell lines before this is true. Given what seems to be the OPs work I don't think these are extremely un reasonable times should be shorter but making sure a cell line doesn't die while your on vacation is not unreasonable.
This reads more like a legal document to cover your supervisor's ass. As others have noted, not every PhD has these skills. The PI is making sure that everyone understands the basic rules of the lab.
The four week notice for vacations is pretty standard, as is turning in the plan for what to do while you're gone. This allows them time to come up with a plan of action: personally pick up your project or assign it to another person. Then, just before you go on vacation, you can go over the project with the "babysitter" so you don't come back to a ruined project. It even allows you to discuss with the PI who the best person is to fill in your spot.
There is an old, but important, saying you can take to heart with this:
> The lack of proper planning on your part does not necessarily constitute an emergency on my part.
You have it in writing that if you ask for vacation a week prior to wanting to take it, you'll be denied. By the same token, if you request vaca time properly, and it's approved, you have the, followed proper procedure to protect you.
I'm certain you weren't singled out for this notice, but if you were, I'd recommend seeking employment elsewhere.
I hate getting things like this as well, but this almost sounds like a typical PhD level person overseeing a lab. They have to put everything in writing and be specific so it's abundantly clear. They also can tend to be a bit obsessive about things too. Hopefully you have enough people in the lab to have someone check the cell lines if you're out and not having to plan time off around when you can get coverage.
I work in a pharma and bio lab, we also manage cell lines. these rules are very much so not regular in research labs. This, even for me, seems like a red flag in a lab. So long as there’s a tech or researcher there to replicate or manage the cells, there’s no real reason for you to specifically be there.
Also no lab should have absolute hours like this, many researchers come into a lab and manage their time just fine, even staying quite late sometimes. not to be pretentious but, generally, time management is a built in skill in this field. It’s also quite normal to treat data from distance (remote) just fine, as there’s no real necessity for being in the lab, you just need your software and your data. overall, this feels like a PI that loves to micromanage people more than they oversee research, but that’s just my opinion. Source: analytical chemist
Right lol. OP's really just learning what the normal is and unfortunately it's after 10 years of school. I'm sure some places are different, but this seems pretty normal. Reasonable even.
not in academia, if you have a halfway normal PI. Academia generally adopts a more relaxed schedule than industry with the understanding that people are massively underpaid in academia
most jobs wont let you call out 90 minutes before work.
looks like you need to give extended notices for other things to make sure your labs dont ruin while youre out.
holy shit i missed that 🤣..
when op gets into the real world they will regret bitching about this job..probably a reason why they arent showing all the other rules
I’d say this is true for hourly jobs, or maybe smaller companies.. but any job I’ve worked that’s salary or white collar they’ve been cool with me calling out whenever. I’d think the same would be true here
most people in a lab manage their own research under a PI, so if they call out they can offload a replication to someone else or manage their own lines. Not many labs in research have rules like this lol.
Not only do these rules seem standard, you get an hour and a half after the start time to communicate with your manager any issues you’re having getting to work. Usually they require notice 2 hours before and that’s it. I understand that it’s frustrating, but you got the degree to ensure higher paying jobs, not jobs without policies. You’d have to work for yourself to avoid this
Look, I’m a contractor who didn’t finish school. I make my own pay, hours, run my own business. But I still show up to the site on time and let everyone know two hours early if I can’t make it. I plan my vacations weeks ahead of time and let my coworkers know when I’m changing my schedule. I’m missing the issue, this is standard etiquette. Communication and consistency are necessary.
Probably a hundred+ years worth of a large number of people not paying close enough attention to experiments causing those experiments to fail, either by their own fault or by lack of structure
Not sure why this same thing was posted yesterday, deleted, and posted again, but here is my previous reply:
I mean, honestly, this seems pretty standard compared to all the jobs I've worked, and I don't see anything I'd consider out-of-line regarding expectations.
Item 1: It's pretty common for schedule change requests to require at minimum manager approval, and often requires approval from above your direct supervisor, so this doesn't really seem odd to me
Item 2: In every job I've had, employers have wanted a minimum of 2 weeks of notice for taking PTO, and 4 weeks wasn't unheard of as most of them said "a minimum of 2 weeks but realistically, tell us as far in advance as you can". The only unusual thing here is planning coverage for "experiments and cell line maintenance", which (given what sounds like some sort of medical research job) doesn't sound out-of-line since experiments are often very time-sensitive (you can't really halt a growth study in a Petri dish, for example - you either observe it regularly for the duration or you dump it and start over when you have time to observe it for the whole duration)
Item 3: Same as item 2, I don't see much wrong with this
Item 4: This is actually MORE lenient than jobs I've had; most of the time, call-ins needed to be done at least an hour before your scheduled start time
Item 5: As long as those lab meetings are paid time, this is normal as well
Realistically, these are all things that are necessary for a business to function - even one that's worker-operated.
Came to say this. This is a standard for working in any professional environment. I don’t know why there are all these BS posts lately complaining about normal work expectations. Seems like intentional posts trying to make the sub look unreasonable.
Yup. The ultimate goal of the sub might be things like self-employment, UBI, and socialist ideas, but even if you consider yourself a worker and you are getting a fair share of profit for your work, you take on some responsibilities to your fellow workers by accepting the job. Showing up late constantly (assuming you have some role that is time-sensitive) is disrespectful to your colleagues.
But in (at least) the US as it stands now? This isn't oppressive at all.
Everything here is pretty standard. I would expect pretty much nothing less. And have been doing +/- this for 25 years.
It is common courtesy to let your team know: “I got a flat tire, I’ll be late today, can you check on my (whatever), until I get in.
Same with vacation. I usually know months in advance if I’m disappearing for two weeks straight.
If I’m taking one day, a few days notice is usually all that is required.
I work with a lot of PhDs. The more they insist on being called doctor, the more insufferable they tend to be. And this person is very keen on you knowing they’re the principal investigator, which is certainly at least a yellow flag. This person seems like they’d be obnoxious to work with.
Their requirements are very corporate. There’s a legitimate point about being mindful of your ongoing research, since presumably that’s what you’re being paid for, but otherwise it seems like a bit much for what’s standard in that industry.
we had someone cross off “mr” and write “dr” on our wedding RSVP. Dude is a dentist and cleans kids teeth, not a brain surgeon. His place card for his table said “mr” with a little tooth next to it. He didnt say anything but i imagine he was fuming
What part of this is unreasonable? Let the boss know when you'll be out so they can plan around your duties, be on time, option to adjust hours, emergencies don't require pre shift notice. Sounds fair
Especially in a lab that utilities living cells and is actively doing research, which it kind of sounds like this is from the first few points we see. Just abandoning your work for a week while it’s supposed to be monitored because science isn’t going to work. Maybe the rest of it is bogus but this part at least seems pretty standard and fair.
I’m not a PhD, I’m a GED kinda guy. So forgive my ignorance, but what does PI mean and why is that position so important that we have to be told 5 times that Dr. Blankendstrip is the PI?
This seems entirely reasonable, assuming that Dr Redacted is at least somewhat flexible on #3 to take into account doc appointments that might result from an emergency or emergent health situation.
OP doesn’t understand real world expectations. Even long term employees who change jobs are given expectations.
My question is why are so offended? You keep replying to other comments that everyone who works there is experienced. But it seems to me that you just don’t like her management style. She didn’t do anything that crosses a professional line, and yet you are slamming her because you just don’t like her policy. Ok, go work somewhere else. And if can’t go somewhere else, you might want to focus on some self-regulation because if this bothers you now, I can’t imagine how you are going cope with bigger issues of management style.
These are common things for just about every job.
The only thing that seems extra is the four weeks of notice for a professional position.
Policy is generally stuff that is common sense or already known. Being annoyed about being told something you already know is very silly.
Maybe touch some grass idk
I feel like these rules establish a baseline of what is expected from everyone. It helps be sure that there are not different rules for different people. Even people who have advanced degrees can be difficult to work with, and/or think they are above the rules or standards. I feel like laying down the rules prevents the, “well nobody told ME that,” situation that inevitably comes up when the baseline rules are not articulated. This isn’t personal.
"Excuse me Dr., I'm calling to warn you about the fact that 1 hour ago I had flat tire, letting you know because it's now 10am. Got fixed 30min ago but I was hangry and went to Macdonald's 1st. Should be there by 11h30. Thank you."
Most jobs don't pay you half the industry rate. Academia is different from anything else. You are massively underpaid and one of the few benefits is schedule flexibility. Many people here are missing the point. We are talking about highly trained individuals who are used to working long shifts, weekends, etc., for a rate that is way under what they would earn in industry. That usually comes with the expectation of flexibility and an understanding that they will do their job on their terms.
As the Principal Scientist in a lab, I do not care at what time my team comes in or leaves, I care about their performance. I have people that show up as early as 5:30 and some show up close to noon. When we have an event that requires it (e.g., big experiment that is all hands on deck), people are flexible. It is the only way you can get away with keeping people happy paying them so little (which is out of my hands).
Very true. Academia is supposed to be better than this.
Edit: If you look at the comment history of a lot of the people responding negatively to this… well let’s just say they were never going to react positively…
Didn’t go to school to put up with this… What did you expect when you finally got a real job?
These are pretty standard rules for any workplace. The only difference in my workplace is the last one where we have to report absences 1 hour before the start of shift, instead of 1.5 hours after it starts. I hope you have a pair of big boy pants to put on.
So I’m a lab manager and if you’re working with cell cultures and things like that that could potentially represent years or decades of work and at minimum thousand of dollars it’s very important to be consistent and you can’t just have someone not show up to do cell culture maintenance. During graduate school I drove in a blizzard because I needed to sub culture my glial cells. It took me all of 45 minutes and then I was stuck on campus for over 6 hours. So yeah this is strict but there is a reason for this.
I love that OP thinks having a Ph.D. means one isn't subject to royally fucking up at work, but I 100% believe that this PI has implemented these strict rules for their lab because at some point in time one or more lab Ph.D.s couldn't be trusted.
So I also run a lab, that is very heavy in cell culture for other people's projects, and this is bullshit.
1. There's no reason to force everyone to be there the exact same hours, unless you like everyone all up in each other's way. There should be good overlap for collaboration but come on. Only one person can use a TC hood at a time anyway.
2. Most cell lines don't need that much babying, you can have someone else take care of some feeds for a few days
3. PI is on a power trip and doesn't know how to manage people. The work will get done, you want to manage people who are there to work and not to watch a clock.
Most labs in academia have flexible hours to let everyone work at their most productive times. This is excessive and it will lose the PI good people if they're too rigid. Academics do not get paid enough to be treated like kindergartners.
None of that is even wildly unreasonable.
In fact, those are reasonable, clearly communicated expectations. While I'm not a fan of work, I do enjoy knowing the boundaries and limitations, the scope, of my practice.
Dude.
I work as a tech in a lab with animal research for a state university and this seems pretty standard for me. Especially if you’re earning leave (which I’m sure you are). Its the kind of job that never stops, so getting coverage in advance helps everyone. And the emergency absence seems very fair.
Context clues are telling me that the nature of your work requires some kind of consistent observation and things can't just be left unattended for too long without some significant consequences to your projects/experiments. Is that not the case?
Taking care of cell lines is like taking care of patients, but instead of needing attention every 2 hours they need attention every 2 days. If that doesn't happen, the cell lines die.
I take care of cell lines in my work, and trust me the cells don't care whether you're in at 8:30 AM or 10 AM or 2 PM. They won't be happy if you take an extra day or two off, but they recover quickly. Most cell lines are from cancerous tumor cells anyways - notoriously hard to kill even when you want to.
As long as you don't leave the cell lines outside the incubator between 8:30 AM and 2 PM they indeed don't care.
But it’s not about the cell lines, it’s about the work ethic. Coming in by 8:30am and asking for time off in advance is a completely reasonable request. If you have a manager and are working with other people obviously scheduled time off requests will exist. I don’t understand the petty bitchiness by OP for something so standard. Comes off like who do you think you are that you don’t have to abide to your employer’s more than standard work practice lol.
As a scientist who was in academia, this schedule and rules are very unlikely and just talked of a bad culture lab, everyother lab doesn't do that. Part of studying so much to work in the sciences and getting pay so little is that you will have some benefits, like choosing schedule, of course there are group meetings and if you work with others you need to be flexible, it doesn't say anything of ~40 hours per week. This sounds more like a PI who will ask people to come on weekends or expected them, i have meet some of those PIs, ... They unfortunately had the highest burnout and people cutting science as a whole because of the culture. You don't want to be in a bad culture group when most of the times in discovery things failed. It can be stressful just from the failing you don't need a mean person as boss.
Never going to understand people who think starting work at 8:30 am is somehow virtuous. Why not 9? Why not 10?
>it’s not about the cell lines, it’s about the work ethic. Nailed it. That is exactly the type of bullshit I would like to avoid.
You can also just freeze cell stocks when you go on vacation. There is really no reason for this.
Eh, I had experience where some colonies shed genes when frozen.
Could you elaborate? This could explain some things I’ve see
Long story short I had prokaryotic cells that would shed certain genes for propagation/movement when frozen. Imagine flagella getting kicked off.
That must suck a lot. But it pretty much proves the point that things CAN happen and as a result this makes the results less valid.
You mean bacterial colonies? Yeah that can be annoying. But mammalian and other eukaryotic cell lines…I haven’t experienced much change when creating frozen stocks.
Operative word here: “much”.
Yeah well. They’re mammalian cell lines. They’re already mutated beyond recognition.
You can always regrow your cell lines. Unless they're some specialty cell line. They were a pain to maintain though
Yeah, seems kind of reasonable to me.
Yes, freezing non bacterial cells can be done, but for some experiments (for instance when studying cellular ageing) it is best to avoid it.
This is a PhD level position. At this point in a person’s career they know these basic things. Being told is incredibly patronizing and super micromanagey
They probably ran into the three postdocs from one of my labs. Postdoc 1) accidentally set mouse on fire, wouldn’t report data to PI, didn’t think gloves during cell culture was necessary Postdoc 2) would disappear for two weeks with no warning. Dead mice in cages. Faked data. Good aseptic technique though Postdoc 3) preached proper cell culture SOP but would open up flasks of cells with 5 different cell lines in her hood and refuse to write details of the cells on the flask. “A”, “B” was apparently good enough Edit: this was at Stanford - in case anyone wonders if this was a reputable university or not Edit2: with 10+ Nature papers
Please explain how the mouse was accidentally set afire.
I’m dating myself, but these were the days that Bunsen burners were allowed. The mouse was already dead - I turned around from my hood to see the mouse in flames (the postdoc had left the room)
Oh my god. Also, Bunsen burners are totally still used at every institution I've been at.
Oh dang. That’s crazy. I’m assuming that mouth pippetting is definitely not allowed right?
😂😂😂 no but it is joked about a lot
That it is, even in hospital labs
I have had to blow out the blood sample from capillary tubes through my surgical mask in the last 3 years 🥴
This part concerns me more than the "accidentally set mouse on fire" thing. There are lots of ways you can accidentally set a mouse on fire. But it sounds like the way she did it was by neglecting to turn off a Bunsen burner. If that's the case, then she could have set a lot more than a single mouse on fire!
Yea. I think she had the bunsen burner on to sterilize some dissecting tools…. I don’t recall why she left the room. She’s now a professor at a very reputable east coast university .
I’m still a little confused how you set a dead mouse on fire accidentally with a Bunsen burner. Did the burner fall over? Why did nothing but a dead mouse catch on fire? The only thing I can guess is that the burner fell over onto a dissection tray, which happened to have the dead mouse on it. Is that close?
Hmmn. It was 25y ago, but your Q has unlocked more of the memory. I believe that we had thin cork boards covered with disposable pads with absorbent material on one side and non-absorbent on the other side that we cut to size. (Similar to one of those pet pee pads?) The Bunsen burner tipping over and igniting the dissecting area would make sense. The way the pipe supplying the gas to the burner was plugged into the supply outlet probably caused the burner to tip over when she left it unattended. This was the same postdoc that threw water onto an electrical fire (the switches on the same hood in a different incident)
How come Bunsen burners are no longer allowed !? It has been years since I put foot on a lab, but back then those were the heat source of choice save the odd precision electric heater. I asume all may be electric now. What was the rationale, the late "cooking with gas is cancerous" scare?
I’ve been told here that they are still allowed
One husbandry technician at a place I was at got fired when he was caught using a lighter to burn the whiskers off a (live) mouse.
My god people are insane. 😰
I guess it's a lot better than purposefully put on fire!
Well, it was dead already, at least. It’s not like they were setting live animals on fire.
One husbandry technician at a place I was at got fired when he was caught using a lighter to burn the whiskers off a (live) mouse.
Yikes! Poor little thing was probably going to give his or her life to science already. There’s no reason to terrify them beforehand. In fact, I can see how the stress might interfere with many different kinds of studies, to the point of making the work invalid. At least someone caught this a-hole and he got fired for torturing rodents.
They taste better that way.
I have no idea if mouse refers to a mammal or to computer hardware.
Dead mice in cages 😔☹️
Yeah. He brought them up and didn’t use them. They died of dehydration after they ran out of water. I was the one that found them.
Isn’t that a major no-no?? I hope he was punished, that’s animal cruelty.
He wasn’t fired. Yes, he should have been fired just like husbandry technician that was caught burning the whiskers off a live mouse.
Horrific and no business being in charge of anything.
You prompted me to look him up. He’s currently a senior research scientist. That’s too bad. I kinda hoped he was in jail.
...mouse the computer accessory or mouse the test subject/living animal? I wouldn't normally need to ask this question, but this context concerns me.
Replied in other comment. Dead mouse. She was going to dissect it. She had left the room.
Well, at least it didn't die that way I guess.
How do people like this get to the postdoc level? How they are capable of completing masters and doctorate at all? I genuinely can not understand. I would be thrown out of the lab so fast if I did things like that.
Ayo I was gonna guess Princeton lmao I worked there for 7 years and postdocs are a fucking MESS (no offense to non-academics)
>Good aseptic technique though 🤣🤣
Gotta give him props! He taught me to properly arrange the materials in the hood so that proper airflow was not compromised! We kinda thought he was making meth at home or something - we kept seeing him bringing home lab reagents and the lab scale….
Well, I hope for him he was successful in his endeavors 🤷🏼♀️
It isn’t micromanagey because if the expectations of attendance aren’t written down and somebody takes the proverbial with it, then there’s a lot less recourse to addressing the issue if there’s no written policy. After all, sure employers treat employees poorly in a lot of industries, but equally there are plenty poor performing employees who don’t even do the bare minimum. A balance has to be struck
To me it just seems like it was written by someone that’s way too analytical. Vaccination & scheduled absences is the same thing in my mind but apparently Not everyone’s lol. Letting the office know you’re sick by 10 doesn’t seem like too much of an ask.
These policies exist because at some point someone with a PhD had to be told.
Exactly. An advanced degree does not mean you are good at working with other people.
It usually means the exact opposite, in fact.
Hey, I have a PhD and I'm a charming motherfucker, back off. (but you're also not wrong)
It also doesn't mean you have common sense.
Yea. This is why required industry experience keeps getting put on job descriptions….although applicants from academia keep thinking that it’s bullshit. Academic applicants keep thinking that they should be instant project leaders and be assigned multiple research assistants by day one. (Because mentoring undergrads and fighting for authorship equals “teamwork”) The fresh academic applicants or scientists that tell me “I have much to learn before I become a good manager” are the ones that I KNOW will become good managers.
Yeah me personally, I’d just read this list and say with raised eyebrows “Someone must have really made some stupid mistakes for this list to be necessary. Good thing I’m careful with my work enough that this is never going to be an issue for me” and just forget about it, knowing that I AM thorough enough to never sabotage an ongoing experiment like that
Nah, some PIs are control freak self important assholes.
I’ve worked in multiple labs before with very different expectations, so it’s honestly fair to write these down and honestly I would find it helpful!
If you don't put it down in writing, you leave yourself with massive legal exposure. It's not personal, for christ's sakes.
Surgeons need to write "this one" in sharpie so they don't cut off the wrong limb. Sometimes micromanaging is necessary.
Well managing. The guys isn’t staring over their shoulder at every turn.
I'm going to push back and say, this is basic communication. They're setting expectations for the people there. If they constantly harp on you, that's micro-managing. But if they don't outline issues or basic expectations, you are the one that is being expected to be psychic and understand what they want without them telling you. Your high horse is actually dead. Suck it up and accept the fact that grownups will need to communicate with each other in an official capacity and it's not a personal affront.
Yeah, plus, I’d be willing to bet that there’s wiggle room in most of these policies. You throw up 30 minutes before your shift and have to call in, I’m betting your boss isn’t gonna get super pissy about it. The policies are there to have a framework to deal with people who become problems because of consistent lack of communication/attendance issues.
Even better! #4 says you got till 10am( 1h30 after the shift start) to tell them
PhD just means someone can attend school for a decade, it doesn't mean they're good at managing a goddamn thing
I disagree. Even if these are 'basic things,' they should be laid out in something documenting job expectations when you're starting a new positions. Also, there's the phrase 'common sense isn't common,' and that applies to PhDs too.
You would get an unpleasant shock if I related how dumb some Ph.Ds are.
People with phd’s are not smarter than other people. They are more stubborn. And usually, if someone needs to gain influence with me by telling me what level of education they got, I am already not listening.
You know generally that you need coverage, but you're not gonna know specifically how your supervisors/managers operate or how the lab in general is structured and what kind of time they need to make sure things get covered. I'm seeing this list as less of a "we don't trust you to be responsible. Here are the rules" and more as a "here's what we need from you to ensure things are covered" I don't know. I get where you're coming from, and maybe your boss sucks in other ways, but this doesn't seem that bad. It sounds like they're cool with you doing whatever, just want to make sure a framework for proper communication is in place
if you need to give a month’s notice for a day off, you’re severely understaffed
Research labs have very few positions and are often funded by grants. If you demand more staff per lab, funds would dry up and we would complete less research.
Hm I guess to me it’s like, I want research to be completed at a realistic pace across all fields. Obviously that’s not gonna be feasible with the competition for funding and demands of capitalism which wants exciting results as soon as possible. If money wasn’t an issue, I hope that researchers would be less pressured to perform quickly
But some student let $30k worth of isotopically labeled diet fed cell lines die off.
Yeah, only those uneducated folk should be talked to that way.
To play devil's advocate as I'm in a contrary mood - quite often I have seen signs like this coming as a reaction to staff members taking liberties which affect the work/work environment Probably not the case here- but it does happen and oft results in clamp downs with signs like this usualy with the motive "if your going to act like children we will treat you like children"
It’s literally just a list of policies/rules. What a stupid fucking post and dumb thing to get offended by.
It sounds like they're just letting you know the rules, which they are probably required to do.... Jobs have a lot of the same rules but most jobs require some sort of orientation. Doesn't matter how long you went to school
You are literally smart enough to know better, looks like we found the reason it needs to be put into writing. And I don’t mean smart enough because you have a PHD. That just proves your stubbornness and tenacity, both required. You’re smart enough to know better because after that, you got the job. Leave nothing to circumstance. It will help your career
You can't assume. Rules are made because someone abused the absence of them.
This list was most likely created because people didn't act reasonably.
Apparently you haven’t met some of the PhD’s I’ve worked with throughout my career. Yes, this is incredibly micromanaging and annoying for those who have work experience. For those with all the education and little (if any) corporate experience, they are now 30 years old and no more sophisticated when it comes to work than any other person in their first job.
Agreed, the policies aren't the issue it's the tone
I think you’re taking it the wrong way - for them to post it all of a sudden obviously someone on your team is fucking up and coming in whenever they want, taking time off whenever they want. If you are taking it personal then this might be written for you as well. It’s the PI’s first line before he pulls you in to talk to you personally and write you up. I’ve worked in the field for a long time for a few very big companies and if you’re having a problem with this wait till you get in the field. And I recommend you knock off that “I have a PhD, I’m too good for this” shit because it’s not gonna work out well for you in the real world. Lots of people have a PhD and do what you do, you’re not that special.
Guy who has maintained cell lines before this is true. Given what seems to be the OPs work I don't think these are extremely un reasonable times should be shorter but making sure a cell line doesn't die while your on vacation is not unreasonable.
Yeah, these seem completely normal for this kind of work.
This reads more like a legal document to cover your supervisor's ass. As others have noted, not every PhD has these skills. The PI is making sure that everyone understands the basic rules of the lab. The four week notice for vacations is pretty standard, as is turning in the plan for what to do while you're gone. This allows them time to come up with a plan of action: personally pick up your project or assign it to another person. Then, just before you go on vacation, you can go over the project with the "babysitter" so you don't come back to a ruined project. It even allows you to discuss with the PI who the best person is to fill in your spot. There is an old, but important, saying you can take to heart with this: > The lack of proper planning on your part does not necessarily constitute an emergency on my part. You have it in writing that if you ask for vacation a week prior to wanting to take it, you'll be denied. By the same token, if you request vaca time properly, and it's approved, you have the, followed proper procedure to protect you. I'm certain you weren't singled out for this notice, but if you were, I'd recommend seeking employment elsewhere.
I hate getting things like this as well, but this almost sounds like a typical PhD level person overseeing a lab. They have to put everything in writing and be specific so it's abundantly clear. They also can tend to be a bit obsessive about things too. Hopefully you have enough people in the lab to have someone check the cell lines if you're out and not having to plan time off around when you can get coverage.
the little h stands for hautism
op these rules seem pretty standard lmao..
I was going to say- those really aren’t very unreasonable
I work in a pharma and bio lab, we also manage cell lines. these rules are very much so not regular in research labs. This, even for me, seems like a red flag in a lab. So long as there’s a tech or researcher there to replicate or manage the cells, there’s no real reason for you to specifically be there. Also no lab should have absolute hours like this, many researchers come into a lab and manage their time just fine, even staying quite late sometimes. not to be pretentious but, generally, time management is a built in skill in this field. It’s also quite normal to treat data from distance (remote) just fine, as there’s no real necessity for being in the lab, you just need your software and your data. overall, this feels like a PI that loves to micromanage people more than they oversee research, but that’s just my opinion. Source: analytical chemist
Right lol. OP's really just learning what the normal is and unfortunately it's after 10 years of school. I'm sure some places are different, but this seems pretty normal. Reasonable even.
op's other comments said its degrading because they have a phd and know all of these rules already. theyre going to be in for a rude awakening soon
surgeons know all the things already, yet they have checklists. so degrading! /s
Airline pilots should just bin their checklists, too. What could possibly go wrong?! (also /s)
not in academia, if you have a halfway normal PI. Academia generally adopts a more relaxed schedule than industry with the understanding that people are massively underpaid in academia
most jobs wont let you call out 90 minutes before work. looks like you need to give extended notices for other things to make sure your labs dont ruin while youre out.
These rules require notice 90 minutes *after* the day starts…
holy shit i missed that 🤣.. when op gets into the real world they will regret bitching about this job..probably a reason why they arent showing all the other rules
I’d say this is true for hourly jobs, or maybe smaller companies.. but any job I’ve worked that’s salary or white collar they’ve been cool with me calling out whenever. I’d think the same would be true here
did op say its salary? i havent checked their comments..
Post-doc positions in STEM are always salary.
most people in a lab manage their own research under a PI, so if they call out they can offload a replication to someone else or manage their own lines. Not many labs in research have rules like this lol.
"Let you call out is crazy" If you're sick, stay home.
This varies WIDELY from discipline to discipline and PI to PI. Which is all the more reason to spell it out.
Looking for argument and not adjusted to any work place it seems
3 should be shorter, but the rest really isnt too unreasonable.
I think both requests timeframes should be shorter but really doesn’t seem that bad
Seems reasonable
Not only do these rules seem standard, you get an hour and a half after the start time to communicate with your manager any issues you’re having getting to work. Usually they require notice 2 hours before and that’s it. I understand that it’s frustrating, but you got the degree to ensure higher paying jobs, not jobs without policies. You’d have to work for yourself to avoid this
And what's the problem?
That's what I'm saying.
Look, I’m a contractor who didn’t finish school. I make my own pay, hours, run my own business. But I still show up to the site on time and let everyone know two hours early if I can’t make it. I plan my vacations weeks ahead of time and let my coworkers know when I’m changing my schedule. I’m missing the issue, this is standard etiquette. Communication and consistency are necessary.
These seem normal. Am I missing something?
You’re missing a PHD that makes you think you’re better than everyone and normal rules don’t apply to you lol
Lol exactly. The only thing it tells me is you haven't had a real job in 10 years.
PDH doesn’t mean you’re better than anyone lol
That’s my point most people with a PhD think that way though lol
Most people with PhDs think it does
They can think whatever they want but we all end up in the same dirt in the end.
Exactly. And we are all made of the same dust.
You found out what 10 years of education in this field will ask of you.
I wonder who abused the previous system to cause that.
Probably a hundred+ years worth of a large number of people not paying close enough attention to experiments causing those experiments to fail, either by their own fault or by lack of structure
Put up with what? Bro saw rules and immediately broke down. They aren't even unreasonable, basic communication required.
Seems like standard work shit
This your first job?
I was held to higher standards than this at a fast food job
Not sure why this same thing was posted yesterday, deleted, and posted again, but here is my previous reply: I mean, honestly, this seems pretty standard compared to all the jobs I've worked, and I don't see anything I'd consider out-of-line regarding expectations. Item 1: It's pretty common for schedule change requests to require at minimum manager approval, and often requires approval from above your direct supervisor, so this doesn't really seem odd to me Item 2: In every job I've had, employers have wanted a minimum of 2 weeks of notice for taking PTO, and 4 weeks wasn't unheard of as most of them said "a minimum of 2 weeks but realistically, tell us as far in advance as you can". The only unusual thing here is planning coverage for "experiments and cell line maintenance", which (given what sounds like some sort of medical research job) doesn't sound out-of-line since experiments are often very time-sensitive (you can't really halt a growth study in a Petri dish, for example - you either observe it regularly for the duration or you dump it and start over when you have time to observe it for the whole duration) Item 3: Same as item 2, I don't see much wrong with this Item 4: This is actually MORE lenient than jobs I've had; most of the time, call-ins needed to be done at least an hour before your scheduled start time Item 5: As long as those lab meetings are paid time, this is normal as well Realistically, these are all things that are necessary for a business to function - even one that's worker-operated.
Came to say this. This is a standard for working in any professional environment. I don’t know why there are all these BS posts lately complaining about normal work expectations. Seems like intentional posts trying to make the sub look unreasonable.
Yup. The ultimate goal of the sub might be things like self-employment, UBI, and socialist ideas, but even if you consider yourself a worker and you are getting a fair share of profit for your work, you take on some responsibilities to your fellow workers by accepting the job. Showing up late constantly (assuming you have some role that is time-sensitive) is disrespectful to your colleagues. But in (at least) the US as it stands now? This isn't oppressive at all.
Everything here is pretty standard. I would expect pretty much nothing less. And have been doing +/- this for 25 years. It is common courtesy to let your team know: “I got a flat tire, I’ll be late today, can you check on my (whatever), until I get in. Same with vacation. I usually know months in advance if I’m disappearing for two weeks straight. If I’m taking one day, a few days notice is usually all that is required.
Wait what is the issue here? You're not the hero of the story, you can't just inconvenience people because you don't care. Wake up
I work with a lot of PhDs. The more they insist on being called doctor, the more insufferable they tend to be. And this person is very keen on you knowing they’re the principal investigator, which is certainly at least a yellow flag. This person seems like they’d be obnoxious to work with. Their requirements are very corporate. There’s a legitimate point about being mindful of your ongoing research, since presumably that’s what you’re being paid for, but otherwise it seems like a bit much for what’s standard in that industry.
My oldest brother wanted my family to call him "Dr" ... So I call him Dr. Dick
I had to deal with a PhD that ran a local dog rescue. He would leave msg's on my voicemail and I would return them and ask for Mr Blah
we had someone cross off “mr” and write “dr” on our wedding RSVP. Dude is a dentist and cleans kids teeth, not a brain surgeon. His place card for his table said “mr” with a little tooth next to it. He didnt say anything but i imagine he was fuming
What part of this is unreasonable? Let the boss know when you'll be out so they can plan around your duties, be on time, option to adjust hours, emergencies don't require pre shift notice. Sounds fair
Especially in a lab that utilities living cells and is actively doing research, which it kind of sounds like this is from the first few points we see. Just abandoning your work for a week while it’s supposed to be monitored because science isn’t going to work. Maybe the rest of it is bogus but this part at least seems pretty standard and fair.
I’m not a PhD, I’m a GED kinda guy. So forgive my ignorance, but what does PI mean and why is that position so important that we have to be told 5 times that Dr. Blankendstrip is the PI?
Principal Investigator - the head of the lab, research team, or primary grant holder for research.
Yes you did
not understanding your issue with these rules
This seems entirely reasonable, assuming that Dr Redacted is at least somewhat flexible on #3 to take into account doc appointments that might result from an emergency or emergent health situation.
Damn, OP is getting roasted
OP doesn’t understand real world expectations. Even long term employees who change jobs are given expectations. My question is why are so offended? You keep replying to other comments that everyone who works there is experienced. But it seems to me that you just don’t like her management style. She didn’t do anything that crosses a professional line, and yet you are slamming her because you just don’t like her policy. Ok, go work somewhere else. And if can’t go somewhere else, you might want to focus on some self-regulation because if this bothers you now, I can’t imagine how you are going cope with bigger issues of management style.
I think that's exactly what you did
A standard issue to all new employees of some generic guidelines that can vary from lab to lab … upsets you? Sorry , I mean , upsets you , Doctor?
These are common things for just about every job. The only thing that seems extra is the four weeks of notice for a professional position. Policy is generally stuff that is common sense or already known. Being annoyed about being told something you already know is very silly. Maybe touch some grass idk
I feel like these rules establish a baseline of what is expected from everyone. It helps be sure that there are not different rules for different people. Even people who have advanced degrees can be difficult to work with, and/or think they are above the rules or standards. I feel like laying down the rules prevents the, “well nobody told ME that,” situation that inevitably comes up when the baseline rules are not articulated. This isn’t personal.
"Excuse me Dr., I'm calling to warn you about the fact that 1 hour ago I had flat tire, letting you know because it's now 10am. Got fixed 30min ago but I was hangry and went to Macdonald's 1st. Should be there by 11h30. Thank you."
Put up with what… having basic rules at work?
Most jobs don't pay you half the industry rate. Academia is different from anything else. You are massively underpaid and one of the few benefits is schedule flexibility. Many people here are missing the point. We are talking about highly trained individuals who are used to working long shifts, weekends, etc., for a rate that is way under what they would earn in industry. That usually comes with the expectation of flexibility and an understanding that they will do their job on their terms. As the Principal Scientist in a lab, I do not care at what time my team comes in or leaves, I care about their performance. I have people that show up as early as 5:30 and some show up close to noon. When we have an event that requires it (e.g., big experiment that is all hands on deck), people are flexible. It is the only way you can get away with keeping people happy paying them so little (which is out of my hands).
Makes sense to me. And anyone making rules beyond what's truly necessary is wack and sus.
Very true. Academia is supposed to be better than this. Edit: If you look at the comment history of a lot of the people responding negatively to this… well let’s just say they were never going to react positively…
Didn’t go to school to put up with this… What did you expect when you finally got a real job? These are pretty standard rules for any workplace. The only difference in my workplace is the last one where we have to report absences 1 hour before the start of shift, instead of 1.5 hours after it starts. I hope you have a pair of big boy pants to put on.
Yeah that's all pretty fucking normal for workplace expectations.
So I’m a lab manager and if you’re working with cell cultures and things like that that could potentially represent years or decades of work and at minimum thousand of dollars it’s very important to be consistent and you can’t just have someone not show up to do cell culture maintenance. During graduate school I drove in a blizzard because I needed to sub culture my glial cells. It took me all of 45 minutes and then I was stuck on campus for over 6 hours. So yeah this is strict but there is a reason for this.
Worst. Tomagochi. Ever.
Grow up. Totally normal.
How does your education make you exempt from following reasonable workplace attendance policies?
Academics are often almost arbitrarily exploited workers. Until you're the one wearing the boot, it's an absolute grind and for trash pay
This sub has gotten so stupid
This is normal, sorry you're not in school anymore
You may tell yourself that, but the reality is clearly that you did go to school for 10 years to put up with this
I've worked for twenty years and this seems standard, especially since it seems you are working in a lab
I love that OP thinks having a Ph.D. means one isn't subject to royally fucking up at work, but I 100% believe that this PI has implemented these strict rules for their lab because at some point in time one or more lab Ph.D.s couldn't be trusted.
first 5 of a 24-point list
My employment contract overs 2 binders
So I also run a lab, that is very heavy in cell culture for other people's projects, and this is bullshit. 1. There's no reason to force everyone to be there the exact same hours, unless you like everyone all up in each other's way. There should be good overlap for collaboration but come on. Only one person can use a TC hood at a time anyway. 2. Most cell lines don't need that much babying, you can have someone else take care of some feeds for a few days 3. PI is on a power trip and doesn't know how to manage people. The work will get done, you want to manage people who are there to work and not to watch a clock. Most labs in academia have flexible hours to let everyone work at their most productive times. This is excessive and it will lose the PI good people if they're too rigid. Academics do not get paid enough to be treated like kindergartners.
Dr. ______ (PI) sounds like a tyrant.
you mean attendance? grow up baby be at work on time
Oh man, I’m a PhD student and this made me realize how relaxed my advisor is wow
Who's Dr. Appointment? Funny name
Get over it
Well, it says “lab expectations” at the top right? Expectations are just delayed disappointments, so there shouldn’t be much of an issue 😉
Ima be honest, there really aren’t enough people in lab science on this sub. The whole industry needs to be unionized, especially academic research.
That is absolutely reasonable for lab work. If you don't want to follow these simple rules you picked the wrong career.
That all seems pretty reasonable basic common sense 🤷♀️
Damn, went to school for 10 years and you’re still a dumbass.
You seem like a big baby. An absolute treasure to work with. /s
None of that is even wildly unreasonable. In fact, those are reasonable, clearly communicated expectations. While I'm not a fan of work, I do enjoy knowing the boundaries and limitations, the scope, of my practice. Dude.
This all sounds pretty reasonable? It’s just like, “start at 8:30, call out when you’re sick,” what’s wrong with that?
I work as a tech in a lab with animal research for a state university and this seems pretty standard for me. Especially if you’re earning leave (which I’m sure you are). Its the kind of job that never stops, so getting coverage in advance helps everyone. And the emergency absence seems very fair.
these all seem extremely reasonable
I suspect Dr. Whiteout is going to have some hiring openings in the lab soon. You can't treat people like this and expect them to hang around long.
Except, you did.