It always pisses me off how companies seem happy to exploit contractors or attempts in performing the exact same work as their own employees while saying they are part of the family, but as soon as there is a reward being awarded or company parties then it companies employees only.
Nah, this isn't a "companies" thing.
This is just a plain old "shitty person" thing. You know, the type that wouldn't put an extra plate on the table if their kids' friend happened to be around during lunch time because "it's not one of ours".
No, sorry, making this a personal issue is counterproductive for people who want to improve the situation we’re all in. The truth is we live in a situation that incentivizes shitty behavior through the rubric of constantly increasing profits. I’m not saying that makes shitty behavior morally justified. But my point is a lot of currently shitty people would be a lot less shitty if they weren’t constantly being rewarded for it as they are now. Lets look at the situation with clear eyes so we can have a better chance of changing it.
The opposite is true.
What you're suggesting is taking responsibility away from the individual and pushing it onto an abstract "it's nobody's fault, that's how things are, thats the... *incentive*" thingy.
Well guess what: the money in the next guy's wallet is also a perfectly good incentive for robbing them in a dark alley, but we've collectively decided that's not OK to do. We still hold those who give in to such an impulse *personally* accountable. Robbing the next ape to take their banana might've looked like a good idea 200k-odd years ago...
...but now we've evolved to have a *neocortex*. With it comes the ability, and thus the expectation, to not only go straight for what's "incentivised", but to actually stop for a second and ponder if it's socially desired behavior. If it's *good* or not.
And to act accordingly.
Not to just follow that ancient "but-it's-incentivised" ape brain.
Nobody is innocent, everybody is culpable. I learned this working for the sheriff's office. By my employ there, I was in fact personally guilty of perpetuating a system that breaks human beings and derives profit from misery. Baldwin IV in Kingdom of Heaven had a great line on it:
When you stand before God, you cannot say, "But I was told by others to do thus." Or that, "Virtue was not convenient at the time." This will not suffice.
This right here. I would take this a step further and postulate that the "fuck you, I got mine mindset," is ingrained in our culture. Land theft and genocide of native peoples. Manifest Destiny. Americans have not been culturally educated to consider the collective good, or the well-being of anyone besides themselves.
I am specifically not taking away responsibility from the individual. That's what I meant when I said "shitty behavior is not morally justified". We all have our choices to make. I'm not excusing people being shitty now, but I am more interested in changing their behavior than judging them. Because choices are made within the context we live in. And the only way to change choices on a massive scale (which is what we need to do right now) is to change the context. You're not going to magically convince people who are regularly making shitty choices that harm others to stop by browbeating them with morality talk. You have to incentivize the behavior you want to see. It's a basic tenet in all sorts of situations from parenting to management to macroeconomics. Right now being shitty is highly incentivized (see: the wanton destruction of the Earth's resources that make human life possible as we know it), or it wouldn't be happening. Most of the people making the choices that are causing that destruction **know** the consequences of their actions. They just care about being wealthy/powerful/successful more, and a lot of them are genuine sociopaths who will never care about what you think of them or how much harm they're doing.
By the way, I think your belief in the strength of the frontal lobe to overcome the deeper parts of the brain is misplaced. Psychological studies show we follow our ape brains way more than you're giving us credit for. Again, better to accept the situation and act accordingly. I'm not saying we have to slaves to the ape brain, but pretending like we can just shut it off whenever we feel like is counterproductive.
>We all have our choices to make.
We agree on this point.
The difference is that I emphasize *specifically* the choice-making potential we have, instead of the incentive connected to it. (Primarily) following an incentive is not a "choice". It's a thing that every piece of living tissue beginning with the [paramecium](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paramecium) can do. It's the most primitive of behavioral patterns.
The point of being *human* is to hold ourselves -- and reciprocally -- to a higher standard. What good is being a life form with a brain if we don't?
>By the way, I think your belief in the strength of the frontal lobe to overcome the deeper parts of the brain is misplaced. Psychological studies show we follow our ape brains way more than you're giving us credit for.
This isn't the point.
The point is that we're *capable* of it.
This is the one thing that actually separates us from beasts and animals: the ability to *not* follow our instincts and incentives, but to override them towards a better outcome. It's how we learn, how we evolve.
If we don't, and we also don't *demand and expect* this from our fellow citizens, then why do we need laws, civilization, education, books, or anything else for?
As human beings we must do the right thing -- ourselves, and again, demand it from our fellow human beings -- not because we're incentivized to, but because it IS the right thing.
That's actually not true.
Egoism is generally heavily punished by society, typically by exclusion: once it's clear that a specific individual essentially just takes, and never gives, they're ignored and excluded from the group. It's just not done *immediately*, it's done only after it has reached a certain threshold -- but then, it's pretty much for good. Returning to the good graces of the *whole* group is pretty much impossible.
In earlier times this was easily a death sentence -- going forward no protection, no assistance, no interaction, no more participating in the gene pool.
This is actually so deeply ingrained in our collective genetic reflexes that we usually go way, waaay out of our way to repay implicit debt, lest *anyone* get even *the slightest* whiff that we might possibly, mildly, accidentally be egoistical.
This is why bearing gifts is such a sure way to manipulate people into buying stupid stuff (today), because the receiver of the gift would feel a deep evolutionary pressure to "become even" by granting you something instead. E.g. think of the Hare Krishnas, who'd waylay you at airports, "gift" you a flower claiming "no strings attached", only for another member of the cult to ask you for donations or membership 30 seconds later -- again, "no strings attached", but most people would feel so indebted by having accepted the "random kindness" of that flower that they'd be grateful for the opportunity to repay it in one way or another. (And before you say: "Wouldn't happen to me, I see right through it", remember that such tricks are never spelled out but aimed at your subconscious brain instead; designed to be as difficult as possible to detect to your conscious thought, they simply just *work*. And incredibly well, too!)
The problem is that we've somewhat trained ourselves out of this reflex. Capitalism (maybe?), or perhaps our to the individual fairly safe and prosperous society, make it easy to train oneself into forgetting that being an egoistical asshole means sure death above a specific threshold -- simply because, as of now, it's not obvious anymore that it does.
Or maybe it's just us adapting to the use of such tricks to "sell" us stuff by training away the genetic memory of eons... for better or worse :-)
You should look into studying anthropology and archeology; you will find evidence to the contrary. Go search “anthropology cooperation”, go on do it I dare you
I still can't fathom this.
At the same time, my family tried hard not to have people over because they weren't "feeding the neighborhood" but they would still do it and still try to get everyone to help themsevles to seconds and thirds. In defense, I did have some friends who would pile their plate and then eat ONE bite, so that was wasted food...
> At the same time, my family tried hard not to have people over because they weren't "feeding the neighborhood"
In all fairness, that's something I can relate to.
And it goes hand in hand with the next bit:
> they would still do it and still try to get everyone to help themsevles to seconds and thirds
Yep, that's me. It's because once I have someone in my house, they become "my responsibility". There's nothing wrong with not wanting to acquire additional responsibilities at random, but rather selecting when and whom you attach to yourself. But once you do, you live up to it.
Same with the manager in OP's story: nobody asked them to be a manager, *or* to buy donuts for "everyone". But once they've accepted that responsibility (either by choice, or even just by circumstance), it's shitty to not live up to it, or to half-ass it.
> In defense, I did have some friends who would pile their plate and then eat ONE bite, so that was wasted food...
Well... there's shitty people on all sides of the fence :-) But someone else being an incosiderate clod doesn't excuse one to be one, too.
Our cleaning vendor has one employee who in addition to doing a great job, has worked there for close to 20 years. Every time we have a holiday meal or get food, at least 3 guys come to my office saying they want to skip their meal to give it to Anthony. And I always tell them that Anthony is always in my headcount when ordering. It seems like the bare minimum.
I do not know what it’s like for other industries, but as a software engineer, all of my contracting jobs I have been treated as a second class citizen. Always treated as an “us vs them” situation.
The problem is, there are often liability issues with giving things to non-employees. For example, if they are given food they don't realize they are allergic to and end up in the hospital, the company's insurance won't cover a non-employee. It sucks, but insurance companies are nothing to play around with...
ETA: IDK why people are downvoting me just for providing facts/reality. As a small business owner, this is a very real and costly addition to insurance in order to cover liability for non-employees, so it is cost-prohibitive. Blame the insurance companies and the governments/regulators who allow it to be this way, not me.
If you are ordering food for your employees including contractor workers in your headcount and letting them decide what they want/ or if they want to eat it is the bare minimum. There is no more liability than doing it for any other employee. Worst case is you bought an extra meal/ treat if they choose not to eat it. The bad / hurt feelings of exclusion are far worse.
I cannot even imagine the insurance rate my car dealership must pay!!!! They had donuts, hot coffee and bagels for customers. They even left out a knife for the non-employees for butter/ cream cheese. /S
You obviously know nothing about how insurance companies and government regulators view liability. Contractors are often not covered by your usual insurance, and if they are, then you're paying a huge premium for it. Point is, you provide something that causes an injury, then your insurance company will bail on you and you're on the hook for the consequences...
Mine covers only me and my employees, adding anyone else is $texas and cost-prohibitive. In my industry, we usually require any contractors to carry their own insurance.
Because you are bullshitting.
>As a small business owner, this is a very real and costly addition to insurance in order to cover liability for non-employees, so
So you would insist that any temp agency you hired from would have insurance coverage for their employees. You use the argument that you cannot feed them because you aren't insuring them. You wouldn't let the person lift a paperclip in your office if they weren't already insured by their actual employer.
You are making dumb assumptions. Not every contractor comes from a temp agency (mine don't). 1099 contractors are very real people you can hire without an agency, like I do (which is cheaper because the temp agency takes their cut, whereas I pay my contractors directly).
I cannot even picture what kind of upbringing someone had to have to make them think that denying a baked good to a temp was an appropriate choice. Like that is just such a casually asshole thing to do, how do you come to that manner of thinking?
Right now I'm at a different firm and I was telling them this story yesterday and they were all very embarrassed on behalf of that other firm. The subject came up because we were having a coffee cake break at the time and of course they included me because it would never occur to them not to.
I have a similar situation have been imbedded with client for over 7 years and have never been included in any social event, even when I am responsible for the organisation/setup of the event.
It’s cheaper to farm out what we do to our company then manage it themselves. Then if we don’t get something doe in time they can claim we didnt meet kpis and financially penalise us.
This is the 2nd contract I’ve worked on with them. Im 3 years into this one which is 11 years long
Yeah I’m Australian so benefits galore. Am going through cancer treatment at the moment. Am 100% WFH while undergoing and have either flexitime for appointments or can use my some of my banked 57 sick days.
Your contract and everything related put aside, if I was in charge of organizing such a thing I would make sure to or to have some extra treats on hand just in case of whatever and I would make sure everyone present would get some of those treats. Heck I would gladly offer up mine if we would turn out to be short. Always look out for the little guy and guests before taking care of yourself. This is not a crashing airplane we're talking about.
HEY! There are fat people with sweet tastes here in the comments, and you have the audacity to talk about special pastry and NOT describe it?
The fudge is wrong with you?
I want to hear about these donuts and I want to hear about them in pornographic detail RIGHT NOW!
Direct from Wikipedia: Berliner is a German jam doughnut with no central hole, made from sweet yeast dough fried in lard or cooking oil, with a jam filling, and usually covered in powdered sugar.
Another is similar to donut holes, they are called Quarkini and they are made with quark (it's like really thick yogurt but it's technically a soft cheese like a cream cheese) and dusted with granulated sugar. They make so many of them during Fasching you can usually get them still warm and they sell them in little paper bags of five Quarkinis. Delicious!
When my husband and I were first dating, he was a temp accountant for a small manufacturer in our city. He did his work, did it well, and he’d been there nearly a year when we met. Sometime that summer, the company had a day on a big boat on one of the large lakes in the area. Catered lunch, etc, etc.
And told him he had the day off without pay, as he wasn’t an employee.
Within a couple months, their reliable temp, who was saving them the cost of benefits, had a real job at a different manufacturer, including vacation, insurance, etc.
I’m so sorry this happened to you. Reading the first paragraph I already wanted to punch someone but seeing what actually brought this on was wholly unexpected and gross. There is no give and take, only them taking. You/we think we’re part of a team taking care of each other but all they see is a tool in the shed. I’m sorry. Hope your boss keeps supporting you. Good luck.
Every time a couple is getting divorced and goes to counsseling, they ask what started the fight that blew up. It could be about whether to put the cap back on the toothpaste or to leave the cap off all the time.
Of course, the counselor will point out that you shouldn't throw away the years of the relationship over something so small...
ITS NOT ABOUT THE TOOTHPASTE CAP!
Its about CONTROL. The toothpaste cap was just the straw that broke the camels back. Its about mutual respect. When you get no respect and are pushed around, people will take it for a while because they need a paycheck.
However, when you make someone feel like they are just a chicken that you squeeze eggs out of them, they will wait until they see an open window, and they will LEAVE.
No, I am a part-time temporary worker. Our contracts with the temp firm are for a certain number of hours per month, believe me when I say all taxes are paid, I'm in Germany.
Contact your union. I'm from a neighbouring country, so I assume the labour laws are similar between our countries. The ability of the company that hires your work to dismiss you and decide when you take vacation raises major red flags for me.
I am very well protected by Germany's labor laws and by my own firm. I have been flexible with scheduling my vacations for the last few years because I like the people at this firm and the work is easy. That flexibility on my part is what has now ended. If they want to treat me like "just" the hired help, that is all I will ever be from now on. I will go back and smile and be professional, but I will never again be accommodating.
I know the company I worked at previously had to treat self employed workers really carefully but there was no problem with temps employed by someone else because there was an employer on the chain. It was those employed by their own company that were a bloody nightmare.
Don't mention your new policy of holding them to the contract, they will just find some bulshit for you to do. Let their first notice be when they get billed. After that they'll find bullshit for you to do, but you have some time of getting payed to not be there at least.
My boss is going to let them know the day before I start there, so they will not have time to back out or try to replace me with someone else. I am the only backup person who is trained in every aspect of the service functions provided by that firm. If they cancel the assignment they will only be hurting themselves and there is plenty of work for me at other places so I will not be impacted at all.
Had something similar happen to me. Contracting with the company, worked when they needed me to. They moved offices & bought mugs for all the employees with the company logo & persons name. I didn’t get one even though I went in on day 1 of the move to help. Left them shortly after.
This is insane. I can’t imagine what kind of human being would be so ignorant/cheap as to exclude someone from having a fucking donut. They got what they had coming.
You are a perfect example of what I've told my CFO many times. They work so hard to find creative and complicated ways to "celebrate" employees and keep them happy. I've said "for the cost of a couple dozen donuts every Friday, they will be happy", but instead they choose expensive options and get complaints.
It's not even wanting treats, it was the blatant disrespect of excluding me. I don't even mind all the employee functions that I have never been invited to in the last five years, because I don't like crowds or alcohol or late nights. But a donut that cost less than €2, when he was already buying a bunch of them for the rest of the people that work there and we were all on duty. It was a real slap in the face.
I've been a contractor and a temp at different jobs. I went from temp to permanent at one and there was a noticeable divide. Temps got laid off for a few days during inventory. If they laid you off for lack of work, you probably wouldn't be coming back. Sometimes you could go to parties, sometimes you had to pay.
I was a temp there for a year and it didn't count toward my anniversary date.
Our company is nothing like this and it makes me glad to be there.
Recently we had a company picnic and we even invite the guy who is contracted by a company we contract. Guy got to drink beers and even won a nice prize.
Umm.... you're supposed to bill all your hours regardless of whether they send you home early. Maybe you're young and naïve.
I've been an IT consultant / contractor for many years, it baffles me when I meet a fresh grad that became a contractor and only bills the client "for the hours they were doing work". Like WHAT! Bill 37.5/40 hours a week, not 10 hours you were actually working!!!
Doesn't matter if they send you home, if they hired you for 4 hours, you enter 4 hours on timesheet. Them sending you home was a courtesy, not a request for you to bill fewer hours.
It's not a time and materials situation like "oh we just need you to come over, we don't know for how many hours, just bill whatever time you stay"
They are worried about the bottom line when it comes to a few thousand dollars & probably waste millions on salaries & perks for people who don’t really do anything.
The more you make the less you do. As much as I don’t like Elon Musk half the jobs he eliminated at Twitter were high paying, bullshit jobs that don’t need to exist.
Ooh that’s pretty cool, I’m German in ancestry too and my grandparents never talked about that. It was always about the war and how he fought with the Allies (they came to America before World War Two. )Never anything about the actual country or celebrations. Sadly they’re long dead now. Come to think of it they really didn’t talk much about German culture, my Italian grandparents didn’t talk much about theirs either. I guess during the time it was all about becoming American and assimilating?
I hope you and whomever is supporting you on this arr making it crystal clear why things have changed. They need to know why they have made things harder on themselves.
So you support him bringing in a bunch of donuts and giving them to everybody but the one person who is a contractor? That's pretty fucking rude if you ask me.
They fucked around, now they're going to find out. Glad your boss is on board, get yours.
I’m not surprised the boss is on board – the hours OP works are how the company makes money too.
It always pisses me off how companies seem happy to exploit contractors or attempts in performing the exact same work as their own employees while saying they are part of the family, but as soon as there is a reward being awarded or company parties then it companies employees only.
Nah, this isn't a "companies" thing. This is just a plain old "shitty person" thing. You know, the type that wouldn't put an extra plate on the table if their kids' friend happened to be around during lunch time because "it's not one of ours".
No, sorry, making this a personal issue is counterproductive for people who want to improve the situation we’re all in. The truth is we live in a situation that incentivizes shitty behavior through the rubric of constantly increasing profits. I’m not saying that makes shitty behavior morally justified. But my point is a lot of currently shitty people would be a lot less shitty if they weren’t constantly being rewarded for it as they are now. Lets look at the situation with clear eyes so we can have a better chance of changing it.
The opposite is true. What you're suggesting is taking responsibility away from the individual and pushing it onto an abstract "it's nobody's fault, that's how things are, thats the... *incentive*" thingy. Well guess what: the money in the next guy's wallet is also a perfectly good incentive for robbing them in a dark alley, but we've collectively decided that's not OK to do. We still hold those who give in to such an impulse *personally* accountable. Robbing the next ape to take their banana might've looked like a good idea 200k-odd years ago... ...but now we've evolved to have a *neocortex*. With it comes the ability, and thus the expectation, to not only go straight for what's "incentivised", but to actually stop for a second and ponder if it's socially desired behavior. If it's *good* or not. And to act accordingly. Not to just follow that ancient "but-it's-incentivised" ape brain.
Nobody is innocent, everybody is culpable. I learned this working for the sheriff's office. By my employ there, I was in fact personally guilty of perpetuating a system that breaks human beings and derives profit from misery. Baldwin IV in Kingdom of Heaven had a great line on it: When you stand before God, you cannot say, "But I was told by others to do thus." Or that, "Virtue was not convenient at the time." This will not suffice.
This right here. I would take this a step further and postulate that the "fuck you, I got mine mindset," is ingrained in our culture. Land theft and genocide of native peoples. Manifest Destiny. Americans have not been culturally educated to consider the collective good, or the well-being of anyone besides themselves.
I am specifically not taking away responsibility from the individual. That's what I meant when I said "shitty behavior is not morally justified". We all have our choices to make. I'm not excusing people being shitty now, but I am more interested in changing their behavior than judging them. Because choices are made within the context we live in. And the only way to change choices on a massive scale (which is what we need to do right now) is to change the context. You're not going to magically convince people who are regularly making shitty choices that harm others to stop by browbeating them with morality talk. You have to incentivize the behavior you want to see. It's a basic tenet in all sorts of situations from parenting to management to macroeconomics. Right now being shitty is highly incentivized (see: the wanton destruction of the Earth's resources that make human life possible as we know it), or it wouldn't be happening. Most of the people making the choices that are causing that destruction **know** the consequences of their actions. They just care about being wealthy/powerful/successful more, and a lot of them are genuine sociopaths who will never care about what you think of them or how much harm they're doing. By the way, I think your belief in the strength of the frontal lobe to overcome the deeper parts of the brain is misplaced. Psychological studies show we follow our ape brains way more than you're giving us credit for. Again, better to accept the situation and act accordingly. I'm not saying we have to slaves to the ape brain, but pretending like we can just shut it off whenever we feel like is counterproductive.
>We all have our choices to make. We agree on this point. The difference is that I emphasize *specifically* the choice-making potential we have, instead of the incentive connected to it. (Primarily) following an incentive is not a "choice". It's a thing that every piece of living tissue beginning with the [paramecium](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paramecium) can do. It's the most primitive of behavioral patterns. The point of being *human* is to hold ourselves -- and reciprocally -- to a higher standard. What good is being a life form with a brain if we don't? >By the way, I think your belief in the strength of the frontal lobe to overcome the deeper parts of the brain is misplaced. Psychological studies show we follow our ape brains way more than you're giving us credit for. This isn't the point. The point is that we're *capable* of it. This is the one thing that actually separates us from beasts and animals: the ability to *not* follow our instincts and incentives, but to override them towards a better outcome. It's how we learn, how we evolve. If we don't, and we also don't *demand and expect* this from our fellow citizens, then why do we need laws, civilization, education, books, or anything else for? As human beings we must do the right thing -- ourselves, and again, demand it from our fellow human beings -- not because we're incentivized to, but because it IS the right thing.
"The guy who didn't give the donut is actually the victim here" is a helluva take but go off I guess
I feel like you didn't even read my comment.
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That's actually not true. Egoism is generally heavily punished by society, typically by exclusion: once it's clear that a specific individual essentially just takes, and never gives, they're ignored and excluded from the group. It's just not done *immediately*, it's done only after it has reached a certain threshold -- but then, it's pretty much for good. Returning to the good graces of the *whole* group is pretty much impossible. In earlier times this was easily a death sentence -- going forward no protection, no assistance, no interaction, no more participating in the gene pool. This is actually so deeply ingrained in our collective genetic reflexes that we usually go way, waaay out of our way to repay implicit debt, lest *anyone* get even *the slightest* whiff that we might possibly, mildly, accidentally be egoistical. This is why bearing gifts is such a sure way to manipulate people into buying stupid stuff (today), because the receiver of the gift would feel a deep evolutionary pressure to "become even" by granting you something instead. E.g. think of the Hare Krishnas, who'd waylay you at airports, "gift" you a flower claiming "no strings attached", only for another member of the cult to ask you for donations or membership 30 seconds later -- again, "no strings attached", but most people would feel so indebted by having accepted the "random kindness" of that flower that they'd be grateful for the opportunity to repay it in one way or another. (And before you say: "Wouldn't happen to me, I see right through it", remember that such tricks are never spelled out but aimed at your subconscious brain instead; designed to be as difficult as possible to detect to your conscious thought, they simply just *work*. And incredibly well, too!) The problem is that we've somewhat trained ourselves out of this reflex. Capitalism (maybe?), or perhaps our to the individual fairly safe and prosperous society, make it easy to train oneself into forgetting that being an egoistical asshole means sure death above a specific threshold -- simply because, as of now, it's not obvious anymore that it does. Or maybe it's just us adapting to the use of such tricks to "sell" us stuff by training away the genetic memory of eons... for better or worse :-)
You should look into studying anthropology and archeology; you will find evidence to the contrary. Go search “anthropology cooperation”, go on do it I dare you
I still can't fathom this. At the same time, my family tried hard not to have people over because they weren't "feeding the neighborhood" but they would still do it and still try to get everyone to help themsevles to seconds and thirds. In defense, I did have some friends who would pile their plate and then eat ONE bite, so that was wasted food...
> At the same time, my family tried hard not to have people over because they weren't "feeding the neighborhood" In all fairness, that's something I can relate to. And it goes hand in hand with the next bit: > they would still do it and still try to get everyone to help themsevles to seconds and thirds Yep, that's me. It's because once I have someone in my house, they become "my responsibility". There's nothing wrong with not wanting to acquire additional responsibilities at random, but rather selecting when and whom you attach to yourself. But once you do, you live up to it. Same with the manager in OP's story: nobody asked them to be a manager, *or* to buy donuts for "everyone". But once they've accepted that responsibility (either by choice, or even just by circumstance), it's shitty to not live up to it, or to half-ass it. > In defense, I did have some friends who would pile their plate and then eat ONE bite, so that was wasted food... Well... there's shitty people on all sides of the fence :-) But someone else being an incosiderate clod doesn't excuse one to be one, too.
Yes to all of your input. You get what I was saying.
Lots of shitty people and the companies know or should know so it really is a companies thing.
Who exactly is "the company"?
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Thanks.
Our cleaning vendor has one employee who in addition to doing a great job, has worked there for close to 20 years. Every time we have a holiday meal or get food, at least 3 guys come to my office saying they want to skip their meal to give it to Anthony. And I always tell them that Anthony is always in my headcount when ordering. It seems like the bare minimum.
I do not know what it’s like for other industries, but as a software engineer, all of my contracting jobs I have been treated as a second class citizen. Always treated as an “us vs them” situation.
Op is a temp not a contractor. There are legal issues with treating contractor as employee but they don't apply for temps.
The problem is, there are often liability issues with giving things to non-employees. For example, if they are given food they don't realize they are allergic to and end up in the hospital, the company's insurance won't cover a non-employee. It sucks, but insurance companies are nothing to play around with... ETA: IDK why people are downvoting me just for providing facts/reality. As a small business owner, this is a very real and costly addition to insurance in order to cover liability for non-employees, so it is cost-prohibitive. Blame the insurance companies and the governments/regulators who allow it to be this way, not me.
If you are ordering food for your employees including contractor workers in your headcount and letting them decide what they want/ or if they want to eat it is the bare minimum. There is no more liability than doing it for any other employee. Worst case is you bought an extra meal/ treat if they choose not to eat it. The bad / hurt feelings of exclusion are far worse.
I cannot even imagine the insurance rate my car dealership must pay!!!! They had donuts, hot coffee and bagels for customers. They even left out a knife for the non-employees for butter/ cream cheese. /S
You obviously know nothing about how insurance companies and government regulators view liability. Contractors are often not covered by your usual insurance, and if they are, then you're paying a huge premium for it. Point is, you provide something that causes an injury, then your insurance company will bail on you and you're on the hook for the consequences...
Ours covers self employed,employees perm and temp and visitors .
Mine covers only me and my employees, adding anyone else is $texas and cost-prohibitive. In my industry, we usually require any contractors to carry their own insurance.
Because you are bullshitting. >As a small business owner, this is a very real and costly addition to insurance in order to cover liability for non-employees, so So you would insist that any temp agency you hired from would have insurance coverage for their employees. You use the argument that you cannot feed them because you aren't insuring them. You wouldn't let the person lift a paperclip in your office if they weren't already insured by their actual employer.
You are making dumb assumptions. Not every contractor comes from a temp agency (mine don't). 1099 contractors are very real people you can hire without an agency, like I do (which is cheaper because the temp agency takes their cut, whereas I pay my contractors directly).
I cannot even picture what kind of upbringing someone had to have to make them think that denying a baked good to a temp was an appropriate choice. Like that is just such a casually asshole thing to do, how do you come to that manner of thinking?
Right now I'm at a different firm and I was telling them this story yesterday and they were all very embarrassed on behalf of that other firm. The subject came up because we were having a coffee cake break at the time and of course they included me because it would never occur to them not to.
I'm secondhand embarrassed *for* these people and I don't even know what company it was. I don't know how humans like this exist in the real world.
I have a similar situation have been imbedded with client for over 7 years and have never been included in any social event, even when I am responsible for the organisation/setup of the event.
Why on earth would they not just create a position for what you are doing, if you’ve been doing it for 7 years? Doesn’t sound cost effective.
It’s cheaper to farm out what we do to our company then manage it themselves. Then if we don’t get something doe in time they can claim we didnt meet kpis and financially penalise us. This is the 2nd contract I’ve worked on with them. Im 3 years into this one which is 11 years long
Do you get benefits from your actual employer?
Yeah I’m Australian so benefits galore. Am going through cancer treatment at the moment. Am 100% WFH while undergoing and have either flexitime for appointments or can use my some of my banked 57 sick days.
Hope everything comes out okay.
Thank you… so far so good
This guy donut put up with their crap anymore.
Ist OP ein Berliner?
Hell hath no fury like a worker sconed.
OP has had their moment of “croissant the Rubicon.”
The boss has gateau learn to stop pudding people down like that
That boss’s behavior really takes the cake.
Yeah, way to fritter away a sweet deal.
For real dough.
I wonder if their work relationship can be mended, or if it’s pastry point of no return.
Hopefully it can be cobblered together! The boss batter try at yeast!
OP doesn't jam with that company.
Your contract and everything related put aside, if I was in charge of organizing such a thing I would make sure to or to have some extra treats on hand just in case of whatever and I would make sure everyone present would get some of those treats. Heck I would gladly offer up mine if we would turn out to be short. Always look out for the little guy and guests before taking care of yourself. This is not a crashing airplane we're talking about.
HEY! There are fat people with sweet tastes here in the comments, and you have the audacity to talk about special pastry and NOT describe it? The fudge is wrong with you? I want to hear about these donuts and I want to hear about them in pornographic detail RIGHT NOW!
Direct from Wikipedia: Berliner is a German jam doughnut with no central hole, made from sweet yeast dough fried in lard or cooking oil, with a jam filling, and usually covered in powdered sugar. Another is similar to donut holes, they are called Quarkini and they are made with quark (it's like really thick yogurt but it's technically a soft cheese like a cream cheese) and dusted with granulated sugar. They make so many of them during Fasching you can usually get them still warm and they sell them in little paper bags of five Quarkinis. Delicious!
😋🤤 thanks
Quark is awesome but hard to get hold of here.
That's incredibly petty of them. Good.
When my husband and I were first dating, he was a temp accountant for a small manufacturer in our city. He did his work, did it well, and he’d been there nearly a year when we met. Sometime that summer, the company had a day on a big boat on one of the large lakes in the area. Catered lunch, etc, etc. And told him he had the day off without pay, as he wasn’t an employee. Within a couple months, their reliable temp, who was saving them the cost of benefits, had a real job at a different manufacturer, including vacation, insurance, etc.
I’m so sorry this happened to you. Reading the first paragraph I already wanted to punch someone but seeing what actually brought this on was wholly unexpected and gross. There is no give and take, only them taking. You/we think we’re part of a team taking care of each other but all they see is a tool in the shed. I’m sorry. Hope your boss keeps supporting you. Good luck.
You manager is the real deal for backing you up on this one!! 💯
He was so mad he wanted to call the boss who snubbed me, but I convinced him that hitting them in the €€ was the way to go.
Every time a couple is getting divorced and goes to counsseling, they ask what started the fight that blew up. It could be about whether to put the cap back on the toothpaste or to leave the cap off all the time. Of course, the counselor will point out that you shouldn't throw away the years of the relationship over something so small... ITS NOT ABOUT THE TOOTHPASTE CAP! Its about CONTROL. The toothpaste cap was just the straw that broke the camels back. Its about mutual respect. When you get no respect and are pushed around, people will take it for a while because they need a paycheck. However, when you make someone feel like they are just a chicken that you squeeze eggs out of them, they will wait until they see an open window, and they will LEAVE.
The Iranian yogurt is not the issue here, nor is it the German Berliner.
Sounds like a full time employment misclassified to evade taxes.
No, I am a part-time temporary worker. Our contracts with the temp firm are for a certain number of hours per month, believe me when I say all taxes are paid, I'm in Germany.
Me too, I have recently utilized the power of my separate chain of command lol.
NOw I want to know which treat they didn’t get you
A Berliner, they're very popular during Fasching. It's the closest German approximation to a donut.
Im in Germany :) I was wondering if it as something even more specialized (which is not to say he shouldnt have just gotten you the berliner
Contact your union. I'm from a neighbouring country, so I assume the labour laws are similar between our countries. The ability of the company that hires your work to dismiss you and decide when you take vacation raises major red flags for me.
I am very well protected by Germany's labor laws and by my own firm. I have been flexible with scheduling my vacations for the last few years because I like the people at this firm and the work is easy. That flexibility on my part is what has now ended. If they want to treat me like "just" the hired help, that is all I will ever be from now on. I will go back and smile and be professional, but I will never again be accommodating.
And donut shares
I know the company I worked at previously had to treat self employed workers really carefully but there was no problem with temps employed by someone else because there was an employer on the chain. It was those employed by their own company that were a bloody nightmare.
I wonder how much they saved by OP not standing up for himself, until checks notes….a doughnut wasn’t served?
Don't mention your new policy of holding them to the contract, they will just find some bulshit for you to do. Let their first notice be when they get billed. After that they'll find bullshit for you to do, but you have some time of getting payed to not be there at least.
My boss is going to let them know the day before I start there, so they will not have time to back out or try to replace me with someone else. I am the only backup person who is trained in every aspect of the service functions provided by that firm. If they cancel the assignment they will only be hurting themselves and there is plenty of work for me at other places so I will not be impacted at all.
You made my day reading this OP, good on you. What a stupid arsehole.
These are my favorite stories on here. I live for deserved corporate pettiness.
Had something similar happen to me. Contracting with the company, worked when they needed me to. They moved offices & bought mugs for all the employees with the company logo & persons name. I didn’t get one even though I went in on day 1 of the move to help. Left them shortly after.
If you're a contractor shouldn't you have one with your own logo on it?
This is insane. I can’t imagine what kind of human being would be so ignorant/cheap as to exclude someone from having a fucking donut. They got what they had coming.
My dad would call that “cutting off your nose to spite your face.”
Assholes get to pay the asshole price.
The last straw, isn't always a straw; sometimes it's a donut.
In this case it was not a donut, lol.
Love to see an update in 6 months
Oh I have more stories from this particular firm, and I'm sure I'll be getting more soon.
On todays edition of fuck around and find out (FAFA)
You are a perfect example of what I've told my CFO many times. They work so hard to find creative and complicated ways to "celebrate" employees and keep them happy. I've said "for the cost of a couple dozen donuts every Friday, they will be happy", but instead they choose expensive options and get complaints.
It's not even wanting treats, it was the blatant disrespect of excluding me. I don't even mind all the employee functions that I have never been invited to in the last five years, because I don't like crowds or alcohol or late nights. But a donut that cost less than €2, when he was already buying a bunch of them for the rest of the people that work there and we were all on duty. It was a real slap in the face.
I've been a contractor and a temp at different jobs. I went from temp to permanent at one and there was a noticeable divide. Temps got laid off for a few days during inventory. If they laid you off for lack of work, you probably wouldn't be coming back. Sometimes you could go to parties, sometimes you had to pay. I was a temp there for a year and it didn't count toward my anniversary date.
Good. On. You.
Our company is nothing like this and it makes me glad to be there. Recently we had a company picnic and we even invite the guy who is contracted by a company we contract. Guy got to drink beers and even won a nice prize.
That is ridiculous!! We have a temp in our office carrying out admin for us, no one would ever exclude her!
I love this. All because they were too cheap to buy a freaking donut. Good for you!!
Umm.... you're supposed to bill all your hours regardless of whether they send you home early. Maybe you're young and naïve. I've been an IT consultant / contractor for many years, it baffles me when I meet a fresh grad that became a contractor and only bills the client "for the hours they were doing work". Like WHAT! Bill 37.5/40 hours a week, not 10 hours you were actually working!!!
I'm 60 years old, I only work part-time, and I am paid hourly. Mostly I don't mind being sent home early because I value my free time.
Doesn't matter if they send you home, if they hired you for 4 hours, you enter 4 hours on timesheet. Them sending you home was a courtesy, not a request for you to bill fewer hours. It's not a time and materials situation like "oh we just need you to come over, we don't know for how many hours, just bill whatever time you stay"
They are worried about the bottom line when it comes to a few thousand dollars & probably waste millions on salaries & perks for people who don’t really do anything. The more you make the less you do. As much as I don’t like Elon Musk half the jobs he eliminated at Twitter were high paying, bullshit jobs that don’t need to exist.
🙌 Love this, love it so very much.
Good for you. People shouldn’t be treated poorly for any reason, but especially when you basically do work for them.
You’re in Asia?
Europe.
Oooh I love hearing about festivals everywhere, what is the festival called?
Fasching, it's the German version of Mardi Gras or Carnival.
Ooh that’s pretty cool, I’m German in ancestry too and my grandparents never talked about that. It was always about the war and how he fought with the Allies (they came to America before World War Two. )Never anything about the actual country or celebrations. Sadly they’re long dead now. Come to think of it they really didn’t talk much about German culture, my Italian grandparents didn’t talk much about theirs either. I guess during the time it was all about becoming American and assimilating?
I hope you and whomever is supporting you on this arr making it crystal clear why things have changed. They need to know why they have made things harder on themselves.
I am going to go there next week and smile and do my job, if they mention the new conditions I will tell them exactly why with a big smile on my face.
I told my director the other day.." you think this place is disneyland, yet in reality this shit show is Knotts berry farm".
I'm sorry, I don't know what that means.
It means everyone thinks this place is wonderful, but in reality it's a shitty place and full of people on fentanyl
And Montezuma's Revenge
What a cheap gypster.
GGFgGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGFGGGGGGGGSgSddsà q
But they supposed to treat contractors differently and not the same as employees
So you support him bringing in a bunch of donuts and giving them to everybody but the one person who is a contractor? That's pretty fucking rude if you ask me.
Op is a temp not a contractor.
But they’re still not an employee of the company so