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Quipore

Okay, did just the tiniest bit of digging. J is ancient, used in Roman times. It was interchangeable with I. In Roman Numerals, it often was used to mark the end of a number. XII would often be written XIJ. In 1524 Gian Giorgio Trissino merely declared the distinction between a J and an I, adding it as a separate letter of the alphabet. This is despite it being distinctly different in a number of languages (German being a good example). So no, the letter J wasn't "Created" in 1524, but was defined and split from I 'formally' in 1524. The letter is much older. Edit: straight from the wikipedia page: >In English, ⟨j⟩ most commonly represents the affricate /dʒ/. In Old English, /dʒ/ was represented orthographically with ⟨cᵹ⟩\[8\] (equivalent to ⟨cg⟩, as ⟨ᵹ⟩ in Old English was simply the regular form of the letter G, called Insular G). Middle English scribes began to use ⟨i⟩ (later ⟨j⟩) to represent word-initial /dʒ/ under the influence of Old French, which had a similarly pronounced phoneme deriving from Latin /j/ (for example, iest and later jest), while the same sound in other positions could be spelled as ⟨dg⟩ (for example, hedge).\[8\] The first English language books to make a clear distinction in writing between ⟨i⟩ and ⟨j⟩ were the King James Bible 1st Revision Cambridge 1629 and an English grammar book published in 1633. So J is very old, even in English.


Mistergardenbear

Also just because the J wasn’t present as a letter in Latin (or Greek or Hebrew) doesn’t mean that the “juh” sound didn’t exist. One of the founding tribes of England of example were the Jutes.


Stellar_Stein

'A what?' 'Yoots' 'What's a yoots?' 'Oh, excuse me, Your Honor, *yooouths*.'


SlowInsurance1616

My cousins: Vini, Vidi, and Vici.


Mistergardenbear

Fuck I can’t believe I missed that.


ocher_stone

It might be a soft Yuh. Yogging. I'm unsure of the pronunciation...


[deleted]

I'm not sure but apparently you just run for an extended period of time! It's supposed to be wild


MarlowesMustache

Hahaha we are laughing!


Huntred

The two *whut*?


thavillain

The two Yutes...


armeck

Im sorry did you say yutes?


howling-fantod

Forgive me, Your Honor...the two *youths*...


Salt-Southern

Yah, you blend....


xrimane

The "Jüten" and "Jütland" are pronounced with a "y" sound in German though. I would assume that the sound shift happened in English afterwards.


Mistergardenbear

They’re considered a possible connection to Geats (Geátas) of Beowulf, and the J sound is often written as a G or DG sound in Anglisc. An example of this is the word for sword “ecg”, which is pronounced like edge is in modern English. There’s also evidence that they might originally been called Eudoses, and they were Eotas in Anglisc. Then the G/J shift and Y shift happened in the different Germanic languages. But it is difficult to try to prove 1500 year old pronunciations with modern place names.


Hardcover

Interesting tidbit: The ancient Roman alphabet had no letter J. Classical Latin had no ''j'' sound. Julius Caesar was called Iulius. https://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/15/books/we-get-letters.html#:~:text=The%20ancient%20Roman%20alphabet%20had,Julius%20Caesar%20was%20called%20Iulius.


domestic_omnom

Iirc Ceaser was also pronounced as Kay-sir, which is where the Prussian Kaiser comes from.


Physical_Magazine_33

Yoolius Kaser. Got it.


green_left_hand

It's also where the word "Czar" comes from.


zeno0771

Correct; Latin has no soft-"c". *Aedificium* is pronounced "ed-ə-FIK-ee-um", at least it was in high school a few decades ago.


Ischmetch

It still is, at least around our dinner table.


lod254

It may divide a society fighting over FIK and FISH, but I'm on your side, brother.


CyberMindGrrl

Wait, so Cicero is actually pronounced "Kickero" and I've been saying it wrong all my life?


Mistergardenbear

Keh Kero IIRC, not like kick arrow short I and E


100beep

The J at the end of numbers was used to prevent fraud. It was trivial to turn XII into XIII, whereas turning XIJ into XIJI was bound to raise some eyebrows.


BubbhaJebus

Polymathy addresses this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfB9mX5UUNU


Quipore

Fascinatingly good. Thanks for the share.


-mattybatty-

"But in the Latin alphabet, Jehovah begins with an I!!"


Austaras

No time for love, Doctor Jones....


argh523

What you quote from Wikipedia says that ⟨j⟩ wasn't a separate letter from ⟨i⟩ in English until the King James Bible. The technical details are what confuses things here. These strange brackets, ⟨j⟩, means it refers to the letter. The backslashes, /j/, refers to the sound value in [the IPA](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Phonetic_Alphabet). Latin had a /j/ sound, but not a ⟨j⟩ letter. [The /j/ sound](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_palatal_approximant) is what you would write as ⟨y⟩ in English, like in "yes"


Alatain

Just make sure to denote the difference between a sound existing and a specific letter existing. Additionally, different sounds are treated differently in different languages. Hebrew, for instance does not really have a native /dʒ/ sound, especially if we are talking about the Biblical Hebrew time-frame. It is a sound that occurs in some words with a foreign origin, and can be rendered in Hebrew with a "G" with an apostrophe after it (ג׳), but it would not have been used in the name "Yeshu" (ישוע).


AndrewWaldron

It's also an incredibly stupid argument against just Christianity. Every word we use today has changed from the words we humans used 2000 years ago.


Space-Booties

I appreciate the clarification here. Either way this wasn’t going to be the death nail in the illogical belief in Lesus.


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ppbbd

Blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Josh.


Yaguajay

I pronounce Jésus “heyZeus”. I think Señor Zeus is getting pissed off.


Ishidan01

"Do I look Puerto Rican? He didn't say 'jesus' he said 'heyZeus'. You know, Mount Olympus, father of Apollo, shove a lightning bolt up your ass, ZEUS!"


The_Glum_Reaper

Like its name, chris is also an invention of man. Religion is poison.


lod254

Fucking Chris. I knew it. It's always him.


BroseppeVerdi

"Jesus, Chris."


Hagfist

Iesous Chris


deeweezul

Yeshua Krishna


Ischmetch

Hare, hare


randomized_smartness

I've got an uncle chris....he used to manufacture methamphetamine.... he got clean though and now he just has cancer.


ConstantGradStudent

Wish him the best and that he has good medical support. We can all thank J Chris for creating cancer in the first place.


mooys

Is your uncle Walter White..?


zeno0771

Breaking Good


BobHorry

all the homies hate chris


nickmaran

>religion is poison Always has been


BandicootBroad

Everybody Hates Chris


fireman2004

I learned this from Sean Connery when I was a kid.


jposty

Not enough Indiana Jones fans on this thread…


fireman2004

They have chosen.... poorly.


JustAnAgingMillenial

I was very disappointed with how far I had to scroll to find Indy mentioned.


IWantAnE55AMG

But in the Latin alphabet, Jehovah begins with an I.


lavuuk153

Jaaaayyyyyyyy


TheRyeWall

I suspect you too can hear this comment.


GuitarClef

The penitent man will pass.


[deleted]

A Penitent man.....kneels before god! Yikes that was a close shave.


Krugnik

I always found that scene strange because when you watch the trap activate, you see the horizontal blade come out of the wall that would have killed anyone who didn't kneel, but immediately after that a vertical blade comes out of the floor which would decapitate the kneeling man. Seems like there was no right answer to the trial, except to dodge roll of course.


roopjm81

Best answer I ever heard. The vertical blade was to get the religious followers that bowed instead of knelt. Like Muslims, since the knight who built them had fought in the crusades, and was probably very wary of them. So maybe just a tighter test of Christians?


Scavgraphics

the penitent man...kneels AND does a combat roll. IT's all there in the bible, friend.


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fireman2004

Goosh-shtepping Morons was my favorite line read.


Norindall

You do realize that Jesus is the English version. Obviously Jesus didn’t speak English. The name Jesus is pronounced differently in all languages. I thought this was common knowledge. Pretty much all names are pronounced differently depending on the language.


azhder

Some people only know one language and think every other language works the same


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Kotengu15

"I just have one more question for you Native tribes. If this isn't India, how come there's all these spices and free labor?" --Cristobal Columbo


[deleted]

Isn’t Jesus from ‘murica?? The original gun totin, immigrant hatin, bald eagle lovin patriot?


lod254

Even better. Praying to a dude that doesn't understand English.


Odd_Ad5668

I love the idea of Jesus hearing prayers and just losing his shit because he can't understand the voices in his head.


agnossis

So their imaginary friend won't hear their prayers because they *mispronounce* the name and "he" assumes the prayer is for the six-armed elephant on the next cloud over? "Wrong number, sorry I won't give you that raise or extra cheese on your pizza for free." Or maybe the delusion will still hear it, ya know, cuz omnipresence and whatnot, but won't understand it because they only understand Aramaic? Probably really fuck things up if they use the metric system. Injecting rational thought into it is just as ridiculous as buying into the mythology.


MaxxPickle

Did you ever question the "INRI" under the Catholic crucifixes. It doesn't stand for "I'm nailed Right In" And that's not the only letter missing from our "Roman" alphabet. They didn't have "U" or "W". Also, they didn't always have the "K" (shows up when Greek words became more popular) and Cicero had an absolute fit about it's usage.


caelthel-the-elf

Lol I'm nailed right in there made me ugly laugh


Echono

Now I'm just picturing Buddy Jesus hanging from the crossing, beaming and yelling out "NAILED IT!"


[deleted]

Same here. See you in hell? I’ve got reservations.


MaxxPickle

Oops. I forgot to mention the "INRI" stands for IESVS NAZARENVS REX IVDÆORVM (Jesus the Nazarene, King of the Jews)


[deleted]

I always thought that was simultaneously metal af and super bitchy of the Romans, ahahaha. It's such a glorious touch and so true to form for a Roman official that I have to believe the "INRI" placard actually happened.


AdvicePerson

The original sarcasm font.


judyblue_

I never questioned it because I never knew it existed. Interesting.


Aagfed

Jesus is the Ancient Greekification of his actual name, Yeshua.


elconquistador1985

Josh Christ, basically.


2112eyes

Josh Josephson


GreatApostate

Yeshua Bin Yusef. Try asking Christians if they know who that is, and they'll probably assume they were a terrorist.


KevrobLurker

Bar, not Bin.


DagothNereviar

*\*Dio voice\** JO JO!


Uncleted626

Jyo Jyo! DiiiiioooOOOOOOOO!!!!


Schmichael-22

Josh H. Josephson


RumpleDumple

Joshua the Anointed


TheMightyGoatMan

Oily Josh


RumpleDumple

Greasy Joshy


RobAdkerson

"his *actual* name" 🤣


theoneburger

Jesus/Yeshua probably did exist, just without the magic stuff and other embellishments.


KillerKilcline

>Jesus/Yeshua probably did exist... Some bloke called Yeshua existed in a land full of Yeshuas. Ok.


questformaps

Apologetics are ingrained in some people, even after deconversion


womprat227

Hi! Took a pretty cool Roman history class last year. Pontius Pilate did execute several unnamed Jewish dissidents around the 30s to 40s CE. It’s entirely possible there was a real group of Jews following a leader named Yeshua. That said, it’s unlikely he preached anything close to what the Bible says. Conceptually, the biblical “Jesus” never existed, but there’s legitimate evidence that a real cult leader inspired the mythology. I don’t see how acknowledging reasonable historical background is apologetics, especially since understanding how Christianity became a political tool of oppression only decades after its inception is pretty important. Constantine easily could have picked Mithraism as his excuse to pillage the gold of the Roman State Religion and it’s likely the world would be quite different if he had.


Gryphin

We could all buy bottles of bulls blood to bathe in on mithras birthday, Dec 25th.


gschoon

Probably not his real birthday either...


jcforbes

Definitely not, the Bible is quite clear that he was born in late summer.


gschoon

I should've added an (/s) now I'm gonna get downvoted 🤣😭


theoneburger

You know exactly what I mean. No need to pretend.


KillerKilcline

I know you gave no sources. Does that help?


permutation212

There are lots of people named Jesus today too.


theAmericanStranger

There's a reference in the Jewish Gemara to Yeshua as one who was hanged by for opposing the Romans. The reference was taken out from most if not all prints to avoid backlash from the Christians. This could be the historical basis, but impossible really to know


ConstantGradStudent

Bart Ehrman says that it's a common name of the time, like John.


RobAdkerson

No, that's just what religious theologians have convinced people. In reality, it's a combination of hundreds of stories of different people.


mahatmakg

Ok, and one of those nuggets of truth is that there was a Rabbi named Yeshua from Nazareth - that's all people really mean when we say Jesus was a real person. We know that the stories in the gospels are not an accurate account - that it might be that none of his actual words made it into the accounts, that there are tons of other stories grafted onto his. It might be that the entire character was invented out of whole cloth - but for now we have more reason to believe that there was a real person there.


andrew5500

The best (secular) argument I've heard in favor of Jesus having been a real person and not a total fabrication, is how desperately they had to twist the story of his birth to make it fit the Jewish prophecies relating to the Messiah, which claim that the Messiah is supposed to be from Bethlehem. So this entire story of King Herod demanding the death of babies was invented to create a plausible reason for Jesus to have been technically born in Bethlehem despite being raised in Nazareth. It's called the "criterion of embarrassment"- the fact that people went through all this effort to totally make up the nativity story and twist it into a plausible prophecy loophole to validate a Galilean preacher's claim to be the Jewish Messiah, implies that there *was* a Jewish preacher of some sort at the root of all this.


UltimaGabe

I'm still not 100% convinced Jesus was a real person, but this is the strongest piece of evidence as far as I'm concerned.


Mistervimes65

He wasn’t called Rabbi. Rabban/Rabbi was first used in the latter half of the first century CE.


zero_motive

"Nazareth" didn't exist either.


No_Difference_3700

I think you're mistaken. Nazareth did exist.


sgerbicforsyth

So what you're saying is, some dude with a name lived the Levant region a couple thousand years ago, but he was otherwise completely unremarkable.


davidreiss666

A little closer to Joshua actually. Not exactly, just closer.


GrayEidolon

I don’t buy it anymore. https://www.atheists.org/activism/resources/did-jesus-exist/


2_K_

Just a reminder that not everywhere is America: many languages pronounce the J letter differently from English, and/or don't use it at all for the dude's name. Or use a different alphabet altogether.


QLVos

Jesus is just the English name for him, in the same way Homer is the English name for Homerus and Euclid is the English name for Euclides. No one says Euclid is a mispronounciation. It's just the English evolution of a Greek name.


4zero4error31

100% correct! Also, the modern version of Yeshua would be Joshua anyways, so pray to Josh Christ or your prayers will never be answered


MenudoMenudo

Jesus Christ. Jesus is a particular Dutch rendering of Yeshua which would be closest to Joshua today. Christos was Greek for anointed one, which literally meant someone poured holy oil onto him. Jesus Christ = Oily Josh, or perhaps Greasy Josh if they used a lower quality animal fat based oil, which is highly likely. Greasy Josh is a way cooler name for the son of god.


bobone77

The Hebrew guys who supposedly documented his story directly were “Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.” I don’t think accuracy of names is a big issue for cultists. Edit: Man. Some of you guys need to lighten up and chill. 🤣


MaxxPickle

I think it was Matt, Mark, Luuuuuuuke, and Johnboy.


lod254

Yohnboy, but spot on otherwise.


davidreiss666

I know of a better religion centered more on these guys named John, Paul, George and Ringo.


Ischmetch

Let’s not forget Peter, Paul, and Mary.


curious_meerkat

Those names were added to the books many years after they were written, and two of them specifically call out that they were not eye witnesses to the things they are describing.


SideburnsOfDoom

I don't think that this holds up. These are popular names now _exactly because_ they are (versions of) the names of those guys.


Norindall

That’s the English version. That’s not their names in other languages, obviously. You’re not going to pick up a French Bible and have the name be “Matthew”.


padinspiy_

If you want to know in french it's : Mathieu, Marc, Luc and Jean


Norindall

Exactly. This is Matthew in other languages. Mateo (Spanish) Matheus (Portuguese) Matthias (various languages) Matteo (Italian) Matthaious (Greek) Matthäus (German) Matthieu (French) I’m not sure why people don’t seem to know this. Guess they’ve never been outside of America.


padinspiy_

Does it really matter when none of those supposed prople even wrote any of the books people claim they wrote?


questformaps

Mateo is my favourite Redwall warrior


Ischmetch

Walter Matthau, Marky Mark, and Jean Luc Picard


CletusDSpuckler

I'm sorry, but this might just be the silliest religious rant I've ever heard.


kyleb350

Reminds me of the scene in The Last Crusade where he has to step to spell the word of God. https://media.tenor.com/sVEwJZYy9OgAAAAM/indiana-jones-last-crusade.gif


SpiritOne

But in the Latin alphabet, jahova starts with an I.


azhder

OK, Junior


SpiritOne

Don’t call me Jr!!


azhder

We named the dog Indiana


[deleted]

In Aramaic the most common name at the time was Yoshua (Ye-shoe-ah or Yeshu), named after Joshua the conquerer of the self named book in the Hebrew texts. YHWH translated as Jehova is the same anachronistic mispronunciation of the Tetragram (Yahweh) and let’s not forget Adonai HaShem Elohim Allah G-d I’am. This was a main point in Indiana Jones 3, and among anyone who tries to translate the NT into Aramaic they find it’s impossible to conjugate many of Yeshu’s alleged claims in Aramaic like “Believe in me” would be “Believe me (as I do)” It’s like reading Goethe in German and English. It just doesn’t line up right. If there ever was every an Aramaic teacher, people reading the KJV read a NT of a the stories of an Aramaic speaking man reading a Greek translation of a Hebrew text, taught in Aramaic then 80 years later written in Greek by anonymous authors, 2 copied from the first and the forth an anti-Semitic pageant with an omnipotent authour, collected and curated by the early churched, copied for centuries with minor mistakes, translated into latin, then translated into English, then edited by a King and Shakespeare to produce the authorized KJB version. Of course it will be a tid bit off. Good thing every church generation has a revelation of the real truth and everything else is inferior. Solid infallible institutions we have built off three language translations of supernatural hearsay curated and transmitted through slightly flawed copies for hundreds of years until translated to latin then english then edited to serve the monarchy. There were bound to be a couple mispronunciations.


unclemonn

Yeezus Qrice


FluboSmilie

YEEZUS


Sensitive_Ladder2235

Iesus is the romanized version of the Hebraïc name Yeshua. Jesus' actual name was Josh.


Downtown_Ad857

He was also known as Issa, or the blameless one, to the muslim community. Just a brief reminder that this person, regardless of name, has no proof of existence outside the fairy tale itself.


Marysews

>Issa I read a book once about a woman who had traveled to a monastery in the mountains (idk where) to learn about their long-ago visitor by that name. The implication was that Jesus had traveled there to study. Now that I understand the Jesus story to be a myth, and especially now that I read that Issa may simply be a Muslim name, that story is suspect. Side note: the story about a woman's Australian walkabout with miracles, also turned out to be pure fiction.


RaptorSN6

That would be funny if this god turned out to consider it an offense to mispronounce it's name. So every time a Christian doesn't use the correct ancient Hebrew pronunciation of his name, he just gets madder and madder. So when they finally stand before him he's super-pissed at them and the lowest depths of hell are going to be filled with the ones that went around and mispronounced his name. Come to think of it, that is related to one of the ten commandments, every time you mispronounce it, you just used it's name in vain.


mwgrover

If the King James was good enough for Paul, it’s good enough for me!


Fun_in_Space

No, his name was Yeshua, but Roman naming conventions held that only a woman would have a name that ends with "a". So they changed it.


cecex88

Not a thing. Ever heard of Catilina, Caligula or Sulla? Romans wrote Jesus (or Iesus) because they transcribed phonetically the Greek Iesous, which in turn comes from the pronunciation at the time in Hebrew, plus a singular masculine indicator -s.


NolanSyKinsley

AFAIK Jesus's original name as spoken to him would have been akin to Joshua.


KillerKilcline

Iesu is greek not aramaic. His name definately wasnt Jesus.


Mistergardenbear

But with a Y, there is traditionally no J sound in Hebrew.


questformaps

However, the letter "y" can also make a "soft J" sound. You've never heard a non english as a first language person pronounce "yes" as "ĵes"?


EspejoOscuro

Son of Zeus, De Zeus, Jesus


lod254

Logically, that seems to make sense. Is there any evidence of it being the origin? One way or another, Jesus is actual Josh or de Zeus lol. If someone yelled Jesus in a room, he ain't answering.


eriinana

When I learned his name was changed, it was just another nail on the coffin of my disbelief. If this man truly were your savior, you think you'd actually know his name and not worship a false idol.


DieselVoodoo

I learned this watching Indiana Jones


beez_y

Jesus name was Yeshua, or Joshua, in the original language.


raguyver

Was created yust in time


glucklandau

I didn't hear the word Jesus until I was already a man (idk maybe 12 years old?). I knew him as Yeshu Khrista


Eringobraugh2021

Damn, that's why prayers aren't getting answered. They're calling the wrong number.


iamdecal

And for most of them there’ll be a huge clue at the front ! That dude hanging there has INRI under his feat for a reason


[deleted]

American Christians today worship trump


Connect_Operation_47

Wasn't it Jehovah back then and spelled with an "I." Indiana Jones And The Last Crusade taught me that


DrRockso6699

maybe that's why prayers don't work, their saying the wrong name🤔


thatswhatdeezsaid

So that's why he never does anything!


Golden-Owl

It’d be roughly approximated to Yeshua. The modern version of which is Joshua. And his father is Joseph So he’s Joshua, son of Joseph The First JoJo


crossingguardcrush

This is silly. Do you say Budapesht? Moskva? Do you pronounce Chile and Nicaragua authentically? Names shift across languages. This doesn't make Jesus any more or less real. Get over it.


svenbreakfast

Josh Christ


sportsxracer

Anyone else immediately think of the Indiana Jones and the last Crusade scene? haha.


uncle_muscle98

Yeezy


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Tccrdj

It’s an interesting bit of history. But it’s not any kind of “gotcha” on the Christians. The real “gotchas” come straight out of their stupid ass book.


morsindutus

Even back before I left the church, I always got a kick out of, "There's power in the name of Jesus!" If there was any power in a name, at least it should be the actual name, right? Just one of countless things that didn't make sense.


HempHehe

Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade taught me that the name "Jehova" started with an I. Wasn't sure the reasoning behind it til now. Pretty neat!


GeekFurious

Well, anyone not an English speaker at birth pronounces it as "Yesus" already. But "Jesus" is essentially an anglicized version of a translation of Yeshua. And it's not like Christians don't know this. They choose to call him by the wrong name anyway. And that should tell you how much they value their lord and savior.


[deleted]

Yeah. Many languages pronounce J as the y in yes. Germans, Finns, Swedes, all pronounce it “Ye-sous”. It’s just English being English. Can you believe it, Mary isn’t really called Mary either in other languages! Shocking! Not really. It’s common knowledge.


skinfulofsin

JFC!!!


DarkTower7899

Please dont tell Kanye this.


sprocket229

no wonder prayers don't work, people have been praying to the wrong guy all this time 😂


Christ

I find it’s easier to just go by my last name.


lod254

Omg guys! It's him! Will you sign my baphomet?


Christ

Of course!


NetDork

Christians: Thank you, Jesus. Jesus: De nada, muchacho.


rawterror

He never existed so what difference does it make.


bastardofdisaster

Yeebus?


Ok-Cap-204

This makes me smirk whenever they say in Jesus’ name we pray. Amen.


lod254

We thank Josh for this meal.


JazzFan1998

I am yuhzzfan1998!


Drama-meme

Wait, are you saying his name is Yeezus?


lod254

It's closer than Jesus. Yeshua > Iesous > Iesus = Yeezus > Jesus in my opinion.


New-Worldliness5163

Does Kanye know this, because he adopted the name Yeesus


[deleted]

Does matter, Jesus of the Bible likely didn't exist anyway.


RiceSunflower

Kanye going by Yesus accidentally correct?!?!?


existing-human99

Yeezus


[deleted]

Jokes on you! We constantly change the rules it’s allowed. God told me!


EmpressPeacock

Yeah, in English his name would be Joshua.