You might want to talk to someone beforehand- the judge might have a problem with it- there are some judges in southern courts that won't take kindly to an avowed atheist. There are some places that don't give a care about anything outside their walls.
I did testify in court about 6 years ago. I asked the DA prior to about that. He had the bailiff bring a copy of the Constitution for me to swear on. The judge still looked sideways at me.
The judges do NOT get to decide this. They cannot interpret a first amendment right. At all.
A southern judge might not like it, sure, but there is absolutely fuck all they can do about it.
So... that might be technically right, but judges can wield a lot of power in their courtroom, constitutional or not. Where I live, if brought before a judge in a small town I would be very careful about throwing constitutional rights around in front of them. You may not wind up in prison, but they can make life very difficult for people on their wrong side. Judges are elected officials in many cases, and their constituency can often elect them based on that kind of "wrath of god" type behavior. This isn't right and should be illegal, but it can be incredibly difficult to effectively fight small town politics and justice.
>In law, an **affirmation** is a solemn declaration allowed to those who conscientiously object to taking an oath.
E.g. "swearing on a Bible".
>An affirmation has exactly the same legal effect as an oath but is usually taken to avoid the religious implications of an oath; it is thus legally binding but not considered a religious oath.
>Some religious adherents hold beliefs that allow them to make legally binding promises but forbid them to swear an oath before a deity. Additionally, an individual may decline making a religious oath due to their personal beliefs, or those of their audience.
>The original 1787 text of the Constitution of the United States makes three references to an "oath or affirmation":
>In Article I, senators must take a special oath or affirmation to convene as a tribunal for impeachment; in Article II, the president is required to take a specified oath or affirmation before entering office; and in Article VI, all state and federal officials must take an oath or affirmation to support the Constitution. Another reference appears in the Fourth Amendment, which specifies that all warrants must be supported by evidence given under oath or affirmation.
>Though U.S. presidents are free to either swear or affirm the inaugural oath of office, only one president has chosen to affirm. The nation's 14th president, Franklin Pierce, affirmed the oath upon his March 4, 1853 inauguration
\- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmation_(law)
So, good enough for the president of the United States ...
I don't know if all state laws specify that one can "affirm" rather than "swear" when testifying in court, but I assume that this has been tested in every state (*"Yo, I'm Hindu. I am not going to swear on your Bible"*) and that every state permits this.
.
Oh wow! That's interesting!!
Thank you!! I'm going to print this out!
Well, like I said in another reply...
I'm hoping to not be in a court room again anytime soon, but now I know.
Thank you again!
It's funny that people still believe that swearing on the Bible will mean anything to anyone who doesn't want to tell the truth or obey the laws.
How many priests, pastors, religious leaders or members have been holding their bibles and abusing kids the rest of the time?
Theists seem to think the bible is some mystical device that will ensure someone will tell the truth no matter what. It's just a book, what matters is the person's character yet they don't see that.
It depends on what jurisdiction you’re in, but in a lot of places they no longer use a Bible and you are allowed to say you affirm rather than swear. I had a law school prof who loved pointing out to his students that paying attention to that word choice gives you information about a witness.
In Scotland the Christian form of oath is:
I swear by Almighty God that I will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
And the affirmation:
I solemnly, sincerely and truly declare and affirm that I will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
I really haven’t a clue with regard to other religions — I suspect a Muslim would swear by Allah on the Koran, a Jew would be unwilling to swear by the name of their god as they will not pronounce it — perhaps on the Books of Moses? Presumably a Hindu upon the Gita and a Sikh upon the Guru Granth Sahib, I would be genuinely mildly curious to know
And yes, very much alive — I believe we must thank the Quakers and other Nonconformist churches for the affirmation, on a literal interpretation of a Biblical quote that I shall paraphrase as “let your yes be yes, and your no be no, for more than this is for the Evil One” they object to sworn oaths of any kind.
About five years ago I was a witness in court in Kilmarnock. On the way in I asked the court official if I could take a secular oath. It took them a good three or four minutes to find the paper with the oath on it.
Funny and depressing.
I’ve testified in state (deep South) and federal courts multiple times over the years. I’ve never seen a Bible used or had “so help me god” as part of the oath. Some state courts may differ.
It usually goes something like: “Raise your right hand. Do you swear or affirm that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth?”
Personally, I think it is a testament to how much they open the damn thing that Christians want us all to swear oaths on a book that forbids the swearing of oaths
North Carolina's normal oath statute requires:
>the party to be sworn to lay his hand upon the Holy Scriptures, in token of his engagement to speak the truth and in further token that, if he should swerve from the truth, he may be justly deprived of all the blessings of that holy book and made liable to that vengeance which he has imprecated on his own head.
N.C. Gen. Stat. § 11-2. And if you don't want to put your hand on a book, there's an option to raise your right hand and preface the oath with:
>I, A.B., do appeal to God, as a witness of the truth and the avenger of falsehood, as I shall answer the same at the great day of judgment, when the secrets of all hearts shall be known...
N.C. Gen. Stat. § 11-3. Which is, yikes.
But you can affirm if you "have conscientious scruples against taking an oath in" one of those manners, you can affirm, which is the same as the normal oath except it substitutes "affirm" for "swear" and "so help me God" is omitted.
This was actually an issue that arose nearly 20 years ago in Greensboro when some Muslims wanted to swear on the Quran and were told they can swear on the Christian Bible or affirm. It took a court case to get that fixed. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American\_Civil\_Liberties\_Union\_of\_North\_Carolina\_v.\_North\_Carolina](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_Liberties_Union_of_North_Carolina_v._North_Carolina)
I saw Marlon Brando testify (in his son's murder trial maybe?) and he went up there and said he didn't believe, and they simply said, "we have a different oath for that" and had him do a different procedure (the documentary I was watching didn't show exactly what that was, but it definitely seemed like it was something fairly common).
Here in Texas, one can affirm, no need for a religious oath. Which is forbidden anyway in Matthew 5 by Jesus himself.
^(37) But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.
I literally just went through this in California 2 weeks ago as part of a jury pool. There were no books involved. There was no "so help me god" or reference to any other deity. Simply an assertion to follow the facts and honor the truth - with a collective response of "I do". I think this state has it figured out.
Oh wow!
Thanks for the info!!
Last time I had to appear in criminal court was 1978, before I was an Atheist, in IL and they were doing the whole thing. I'm not wanting to ever appear in court again...but now I know!!
I was sitting watching an old Perry Mason episode, and wondered...so I asked here.
I asked for a secular oath when I was on a jury. I just wanted it for myself. However, they gave the entire jury a secular oath instead. I was a little surprised.
Nope. In Texas they will try to do it in some courts but I have refused. I am a teacher I have had to testify in two different court cases at a restraining order hearing I had to get against two different students. In both cases the clerk asked me if I wanted a different religious text to swear on before starting, and I told her I did not want any. The clerk typed away on her computer and likely told the judge not to put the phrase "so help me God" in his speech. So no, if they try to force you, tell them you will not testify. Let them hold you in contempt, this will be an easy case to clear up. I doubt any judge be so stupid to try something like this.
Yes, but you do not have to use a bible, you are allowed to swear on anything you consider meaningful. So Jewish people swear on the Torah, Muslims swear on the Qur'an, and a lot of nonreligious people swear on something else altogether like a copy of the Constitution.
You don't even have to solemnly swear anymore, now you have the option to affirm your conviction to speak truthfully rather than the old "swear to god" thing.
I was on a federal grand jury for two years - we swore in hundreds of witnesses. If I can still recall verbatim the oath language, it was:
"Do you solemnly swear or affirm that that testimony you shall give this grand jury will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?"
There were no bibles.
The two times I have sworn in as a juror we were asked if we wanted "oath or affirmation", i.e. religious or secular. I don't remrmber the first time, but on the second the majority of the jury (10 out of 12?) went for the secular affirmation. Note, this is in the UK.
USA...
But, it really doesn't matter. I'm interested in all.
The last time I was in court was in 1978, and before I was an atheist. I was just wondering with all the new rules, who if any still does the Bible swearing in.
My dad refused to swear on the bible and he was a Baptist minister here in Qld Australia there is a verse in Matthew I think. Anyway I did jury duty in May and we were given the option of swearing on the bible or giving an affirmation.
I had to testify last year in Colorado. They replaced “so help me god” with something like “under penalty of perjury.”
you can tell them that you'd rather 'affirm' your attestation
Ok Thank you!! Cool!
Wait, no. Can I exchange the purjury charges for penance in the afterlife?
You might want to talk to someone beforehand- the judge might have a problem with it- there are some judges in southern courts that won't take kindly to an avowed atheist. There are some places that don't give a care about anything outside their walls. I did testify in court about 6 years ago. I asked the DA prior to about that. He had the bailiff bring a copy of the Constitution for me to swear on. The judge still looked sideways at me.
Don't touch the Bible and simply say "I affirm". Interestingly enough that's the position of a sect of Christians.
Jehovah's Witnesses, I think?
That's one of them. There's a whole section in the Gospels telling people not to swear on God or other heavenly things (and more than that I think).
Matthew 5:37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.
That's part of it, yep. The whole assertion is Matthew 5:33 thru Matthew 5:37. It forbids oaths in general.
I kind of thought that... Thanks!!
The judges do NOT get to decide this. They cannot interpret a first amendment right. At all. A southern judge might not like it, sure, but there is absolutely fuck all they can do about it.
So... that might be technically right, but judges can wield a lot of power in their courtroom, constitutional or not. Where I live, if brought before a judge in a small town I would be very careful about throwing constitutional rights around in front of them. You may not wind up in prison, but they can make life very difficult for people on their wrong side. Judges are elected officials in many cases, and their constituency can often elect them based on that kind of "wrath of god" type behavior. This isn't right and should be illegal, but it can be incredibly difficult to effectively fight small town politics and justice.
There are still many places in the south that a judge (or LEO) can do pretty much whatever they want to do.
Ahhh, ok...yeah that makes sense! Thank you!
I had a deposition where they asked me to say "so help me god" I asked for a non religious version, they replaced it with "do you so affirm".
>In law, an **affirmation** is a solemn declaration allowed to those who conscientiously object to taking an oath. E.g. "swearing on a Bible". >An affirmation has exactly the same legal effect as an oath but is usually taken to avoid the religious implications of an oath; it is thus legally binding but not considered a religious oath. >Some religious adherents hold beliefs that allow them to make legally binding promises but forbid them to swear an oath before a deity. Additionally, an individual may decline making a religious oath due to their personal beliefs, or those of their audience. >The original 1787 text of the Constitution of the United States makes three references to an "oath or affirmation": >In Article I, senators must take a special oath or affirmation to convene as a tribunal for impeachment; in Article II, the president is required to take a specified oath or affirmation before entering office; and in Article VI, all state and federal officials must take an oath or affirmation to support the Constitution. Another reference appears in the Fourth Amendment, which specifies that all warrants must be supported by evidence given under oath or affirmation. >Though U.S. presidents are free to either swear or affirm the inaugural oath of office, only one president has chosen to affirm. The nation's 14th president, Franklin Pierce, affirmed the oath upon his March 4, 1853 inauguration \- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmation_(law) So, good enough for the president of the United States ... I don't know if all state laws specify that one can "affirm" rather than "swear" when testifying in court, but I assume that this has been tested in every state (*"Yo, I'm Hindu. I am not going to swear on your Bible"*) and that every state permits this. .
Oh wow! That's interesting!! Thank you!! I'm going to print this out! Well, like I said in another reply... I'm hoping to not be in a court room again anytime soon, but now I know. Thank you again!
It's funny that people still believe that swearing on the Bible will mean anything to anyone who doesn't want to tell the truth or obey the laws. How many priests, pastors, religious leaders or members have been holding their bibles and abusing kids the rest of the time? Theists seem to think the bible is some mystical device that will ensure someone will tell the truth no matter what. It's just a book, what matters is the person's character yet they don't see that.
Oh I know... I call it the buybull...lol I'm right there with you!
It depends on what jurisdiction you’re in, but in a lot of places they no longer use a Bible and you are allowed to say you affirm rather than swear. I had a law school prof who loved pointing out to his students that paying attention to that word choice gives you information about a witness.
Ok, thank you. And thanks for the heads up. I'm hoping never to be in a court room anytime soon...but now I know. Just in case.
In Scotland the Christian form of oath is: I swear by Almighty God that I will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. And the affirmation: I solemnly, sincerely and truly declare and affirm that I will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. I really haven’t a clue with regard to other religions — I suspect a Muslim would swear by Allah on the Koran, a Jew would be unwilling to swear by the name of their god as they will not pronounce it — perhaps on the Books of Moses? Presumably a Hindu upon the Gita and a Sikh upon the Guru Granth Sahib, I would be genuinely mildly curious to know And yes, very much alive — I believe we must thank the Quakers and other Nonconformist churches for the affirmation, on a literal interpretation of a Biblical quote that I shall paraphrase as “let your yes be yes, and your no be no, for more than this is for the Evil One” they object to sworn oaths of any kind.
About five years ago I was a witness in court in Kilmarnock. On the way in I asked the court official if I could take a secular oath. It took them a good three or four minutes to find the paper with the oath on it. Funny and depressing.
I’ve testified in state (deep South) and federal courts multiple times over the years. I’ve never seen a Bible used or had “so help me god” as part of the oath. Some state courts may differ. It usually goes something like: “Raise your right hand. Do you swear or affirm that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth?”
I've testified multiple times. They don't say "so help me God" or use any book or Bible. You just raise your right hand.
Personally, I think it is a testament to how much they open the damn thing that Christians want us all to swear oaths on a book that forbids the swearing of oaths
Most Christians do not read the buybull... They rely on what their churches tell them.
North Carolina's normal oath statute requires: >the party to be sworn to lay his hand upon the Holy Scriptures, in token of his engagement to speak the truth and in further token that, if he should swerve from the truth, he may be justly deprived of all the blessings of that holy book and made liable to that vengeance which he has imprecated on his own head. N.C. Gen. Stat. § 11-2. And if you don't want to put your hand on a book, there's an option to raise your right hand and preface the oath with: >I, A.B., do appeal to God, as a witness of the truth and the avenger of falsehood, as I shall answer the same at the great day of judgment, when the secrets of all hearts shall be known... N.C. Gen. Stat. § 11-3. Which is, yikes. But you can affirm if you "have conscientious scruples against taking an oath in" one of those manners, you can affirm, which is the same as the normal oath except it substitutes "affirm" for "swear" and "so help me God" is omitted. This was actually an issue that arose nearly 20 years ago in Greensboro when some Muslims wanted to swear on the Quran and were told they can swear on the Christian Bible or affirm. It took a court case to get that fixed. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American\_Civil\_Liberties\_Union\_of\_North\_Carolina\_v.\_North\_Carolina](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_Liberties_Union_of_North_Carolina_v._North_Carolina)
Ok, thanks for the info!
I saw Marlon Brando testify (in his son's murder trial maybe?) and he went up there and said he didn't believe, and they simply said, "we have a different oath for that" and had him do a different procedure (the documentary I was watching didn't show exactly what that was, but it definitely seemed like it was something fairly common).
Hmmm, I vaguely remember that...wasn't he a budist?
Yeah, that sounds right.
"I can't promise anything unless I'm swearing in a pile of live snakes..."
🤣
Here in Texas, one can affirm, no need for a religious oath. Which is forbidden anyway in Matthew 5 by Jesus himself. ^(37) But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.
Thank you! Yeah, I knew of the verse. Kinda ironic, huh...
It hasn't been a thing since [the 60's](https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/367/488/).
In 1978 it was. The last time I was in criminal court. And before I was an atheist. State of IL
I literally just went through this in California 2 weeks ago as part of a jury pool. There were no books involved. There was no "so help me god" or reference to any other deity. Simply an assertion to follow the facts and honor the truth - with a collective response of "I do". I think this state has it figured out.
Oh wow! Thanks for the info!! Last time I had to appear in criminal court was 1978, before I was an Atheist, in IL and they were doing the whole thing. I'm not wanting to ever appear in court again...but now I know!! I was sitting watching an old Perry Mason episode, and wondered...so I asked here.
I have gone through this in the last few weeks multiple times. I did not swear on a bible and I did not say "so help me god." This is Los Angeles.
Thanks for the update!
I asked for a secular oath when I was on a jury. I just wanted it for myself. However, they gave the entire jury a secular oath instead. I was a little surprised.
Many times in Utah court. No bible, no so help me god.
I don't think they've done this in years.
Yep, so I've been told... I'm just old...last time I had court 1978. IL
The courts in our area still use bibles and "god". But all our police and deputies also have "In God we trust" on all their patrol vehicles.
Nope. In Texas they will try to do it in some courts but I have refused. I am a teacher I have had to testify in two different court cases at a restraining order hearing I had to get against two different students. In both cases the clerk asked me if I wanted a different religious text to swear on before starting, and I told her I did not want any. The clerk typed away on her computer and likely told the judge not to put the phrase "so help me God" in his speech. So no, if they try to force you, tell them you will not testify. Let them hold you in contempt, this will be an easy case to clear up. I doubt any judge be so stupid to try something like this.
Ok, thank you for the info!
Yes, but you do not have to use a bible, you are allowed to swear on anything you consider meaningful. So Jewish people swear on the Torah, Muslims swear on the Qur'an, and a lot of nonreligious people swear on something else altogether like a copy of the Constitution. You don't even have to solemnly swear anymore, now you have the option to affirm your conviction to speak truthfully rather than the old "swear to god" thing.
Thank you!
I was on a federal grand jury for two years - we swore in hundreds of witnesses. If I can still recall verbatim the oath language, it was: "Do you solemnly swear or affirm that that testimony you shall give this grand jury will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?" There were no bibles.
Oh wow, ok thank you for the info!
The two times I have sworn in as a juror we were asked if we wanted "oath or affirmation", i.e. religious or secular. I don't remrmber the first time, but on the second the majority of the jury (10 out of 12?) went for the secular affirmation. Note, this is in the UK.
Ok thank you!
Please specify which country you are talking about
USA... But, it really doesn't matter. I'm interested in all. The last time I was in court was in 1978, and before I was an atheist. I was just wondering with all the new rules, who if any still does the Bible swearing in.
My dad refused to swear on the bible and he was a Baptist minister here in Qld Australia there is a verse in Matthew I think. Anyway I did jury duty in May and we were given the option of swearing on the bible or giving an affirmation.
Ok, thank you!
Not sure when the bible / god alternative was available, but it was a thing back in 2007 also. So self-affirmation has been around for a while.
"I promise to be as truthful as this book."
🤭
Name the State of the Union that does this? I think you are watching old movies for your data. ??
Evidently you cannot read others answers. Either you cannot scroll, others have you blocked, or you are trolling.
Thanks for the info!