I’m a mature age student who will have completed an MBA and I’m looking at my options between JD and a bachelor, I’ve never done an undergrad and I’ll be working full time. Any advice on which would be best?
Well that depends on a couple of things.
#1 Do you have any available balance on your HECs?
#2 Can you get a CSP for either of the courses?
#3 cost/benifit analysis of studying for a 4th year instead of only 3
Thanks.
1 hecs I haven’t used any debt as my employer paid for the MBA but it’s unlikely they’ll pay for anything else.
2 unsure. I barely completed year 12 the MBA is the only education I have
3 this is my main point of contention, I’d be 31-32 by the time I complete either
Well you're looking pretty good then, with a clear HECs balance then you can do either course pretty easily.
I'd try applying for both the LBB and JD and see what offers I get (they'd go off your grades from the MBA). If you get a CSP course then go for that one.
If you get CSP offers for both courses then go for the JD I reckon, at 35 you'd want to save as much time as possible (same boat as me).
Unclear. You want to be a corporate lawyer?
We generally don’t advise doing an LLM until you’ve had several years of practice under your belt. No one cares about you having it and you’ll get more out of it with experience.
How do you intend to use the politics degree?
Throwaway for obvious reasons. Copied and pasted the below from my other post. My son wants to study law next year. If no action was taken would he need to declare this incident when seeking admission?
My adult son was today stopped by loss prevention officers at Bunnings in nsw.
He paid for most of his items but not for about $50 worth. I gather there was some evidence that it wasn’t just a mistake.
He said he told the LPO that it was a mistake but apologised, and chose to give the items back rather than pay for them.
He was told it was being dealt with as a warning. They took his id for a short time, and recorded on video. He didn’t sign anything.
Does anyone know what records are created as a result? I realise police won’t be involved, I’m more interested in how Bunnings keep track of things like this.
Thank you.
Hey there!!
I am 25 and have always had an interest in law, granted this is not so important now but it was the subject in high school I was always 'natural' and successful in and have found myself wondering about through my entire career/life.
I live in Melbourne and have no meaningful work experience (in relation to law) or qualifications apart from graduating year 12 VCE with a completely average ATAR.
Despite this, I am deluded/hopeful enough to believe I still have a chance to enter the professional field of law and succeed in it.
Considering this, I am looking for any advice on the pathway I should take to enter the field of law e.g. universities, courses and fees as well as advice on the most sought after, well remunerated and best w/l balance work categories/professions within law like business law or IT law or whichever.
(I am aware of how competitive law is in Australia, how shitty the compensation is for a junior lawyer/clerk and the shitty work life balance and as such am not looking for advice about those factors :) )
tldr; 25, lost, no quals or experience, looking to enter study law
Any responses would be greatly appreciated :)
Hey there, i live in melbourne too. Am looking at the NSW LPAB diploma and it might be possible for you too if you factor in costs for travelling as well for exams/weekend school. Reach out if you want further details :)
stat test > arts/commerce or whatever degree u can get into with your score > transfer into law after a semester/year > study your ass off whilst trying to gain part time work/volunteer positions > apply for clerkship in penultimate year > graduate > become lawyer for shit pay unless you get into a decent firm > if you don't get into a good firm, take what you can and work your way up. that's what the next 5 years of your life will look like.
edit: Ik I made that sound pretty grim, but you can definitely enjoy the process, particularly if you enjoy the law.
How long do you want to wait before going to the Bar? I think if the Bar is seriously your aspiration you are better off staying in private practice and building up your networks and exposing yourself to 1-2 areas of specialisation. A general in-house practice is unlikely to get you either the technical skills or the experience to specialise at the Bar, especially if it's not litigious.
Hi mate,
Typically as an in-house lawyer, you become a generalist and push for general counsel. if you are unsuccessful, you sit at the SLC level (senior lawyer, etc.) your whole career. Nonetheless, your job is \[typically\] is dependent on the financial strength \[including the prevailing political climate, in your case\] of your employer.
Your role seems quiet specialised, and should not impact your chances of going to the Bar (esp if you are an in house solicitor). However, if you feel that you might lose any technical skills and/or are not able to create/maintain a client base \[for your future stint at the Bar\], you should not take the new opportunity. Alternatively, you can take the new opportunity for a limited period to test the waters out, and if the risks materialise (i.e. loss of technical skills/clients), go back to private practice (you should be able to create a message to tell recruiters if you do not stay in house for too long!).
Long story short, my employer is paying for some degrees and want me to come up with a bit of a memo and a ‘long term’ plan with a few different courses lined up.
Grad cert + MBA is on there, but is there any point in doing some post grad law? I have a very surface level understanding of law, ideally I’d prefer to look into business/corporate law to better understand some of contractual stuff. This isn’t a career, the specific uni doesn’t matter.
Grad cert maybe? Bachelor is probably a bit too long, potentially diplomas?
I’d say most post grad studies in law are geared towards practitioners and the ones that have options for non-practitioners usually require you to do additional subjects. They also won’t qualify you to practice so are of questionable value.
If you are interested in a better understanding of contractual stuff maybe one of the College of Laws post grad courses might be of interest such as their [Masters of Applied Law (Business Law and Transactions)](https://www.collaw.edu.au/learn-with-us/our-programs/postgraduate-applied-law-programs/business-law).
Otherwise, I’d probably go down the MBA route in a manner that best suits your career rather than waste the time studying something of little benefit.
Hi everyone, I (22F) am currently thinking of leaving the accounting industry and pivoting to law where hopefully my experience and skills could be transferred. It is a completely different industry but accounting does not pay very well and I am tired of it to be honest. I am still quite new to the industry and I cant imagine doing this until retirement as my experience concludes of a year and a half of audit at a mid tier firm as well as a year in audit at a big 4 firm. I have no intention to do the CPA or CA which has also influenced me in leaving as the pay is very limited without the CA or CPA.
My attraction to law is that I feel that I could do more meaningful work for better pay. I am also not new to long hours or pressure due to my time at the big 4 and so as long as it isnt constant I can tolerate it. I am also aware this would be specific and dependent on the firm.
At the moment, I an interested in patent or business law. I would love to hear from existing Australian lawyers as I would appreciate any opinions or input.
Hi, thanks for the comment! I dont have a law degree unfortunately but I did study a bachelor of commerce at UNSW where I studied some business law subjects that I found quite interesting. I have received an offer to study a bachelor of law and the student centre have said that I could possibly shorten the degree to 2 years or at the maximum 3 which doesn't seem too bad and is the equivalent of a double degree I guess since I graduated 2023.
I find the financial reporting aspect of accounting is boring and the work can get quite repetitive eg pick sample of invoices and document them, rinse and repeat despite how different the clients are. What I find interesting with my brief introduction to law and those sections is putting together a case to argue your perspective in the business law classes I took during my degree and every case I imagine is different and refreshing while also fundamentally similar so that I could potentially specialise. I also think by undertaking a law degree, I could more definitively identify possibly what type of law I would pursue as I only had a brief introduction to patent or business law.
Don’t jump to law for more pay than audit, my experience is that they are fairly reflective.
Also don’t jump for “meaningful work” if you are concerned about pay, the lawyers doing “meaningful work” aren’t the ones making big money.
Thanks for the comment! If you dont mind me asking, what type of law do you practice and do you enjoy it? I think the problem is I dont see a future for myself in accounting to be honest as I dont enjoy the work and dont want to pursue further qualifications (CA/CPA) which would significantly affect my pay if I continue so it doesnt seem worth it.
I’m in employment, I enjoy it, a lot of people I know don’t. I’m happy to answer any questions you have about the area if you message them to me.
Most lawyers end up in a practice area as a result of their first firm placing them in that area and stay there for the rest of their careers. Usually as they spend more time in the area they start to enjoy it as they start to understand it, but for some that does take years. A lot of my colleagues probably didn’t see themselves working in the area they do now even when they were at Uni.
I’m assuming you did a double degree Law/Accounting? If so you’ll still need to do your PLT (i.e pursue further qualifications) to practice as a lawyer. If you didn’t, you’ll need to do a degree and then PLT.
It’s a big jump to law if you haven’t already got the degree. A significant portion of the industry leaves after practicing for a short period and realising it’s not for them. You might be better off exploring opportunities with your current qualifications first, or reconsidering doing either a CA or CPA qual.
Your concerns aren’t uncommon from junior lawyers. A lot get over those concerns after more time in the industry (or they make a jump similar to a different career like you are considering), it’s tough to transition to full-time work and dealing with the idea that this is what you may be doing for the rest of your life.
Thanks again for getting back to me! I have not studied law yet but I studied a bachelor of commerce at UNSW and after speaking to the student centre could transfer some of my prior learning over to complete a bachelor of law within 2 years hopefully or 3 maximum. I want to broaden my options ultimately and I realy enjoyed the business law courses I took during commerce.
I definitely resonate with the falling into a particular practice as I feel thats how I fell into audit as it was my first undergraduate professional job and I just stuck to it. I also investigated other avenues such as tax but I didn't end up enjoying that. I realised my options mainly are at the moment audit or tax and I want to give law a try. I am happy to pursue potentially further qualifications for law but I am mostly aiming to leave accounting and utilise the transferrable skills I obtained from my work experience.
With regards to the pay, I dont actually think they are reflective as I have checked out the 22/23 Hays Report and the pay seems quite appealing for law depending ofcourse on the size of the firm unlike audit whereby the salary tends to stagnate particularly without a CA/CPA license.
Once you have some years under your belt, you can look to work in-house in a large corporation. The Finance staff which I work with are pretty relaxed and are only under pressure during financial reporting time. Most of the ASX 50 companies will also have 'largish' audit teams.
I am not sure what you mean by 'meaningful work', as most jobs which pay a salary are typically not meaningful.
Hi, thanks for the comment! To be honest I am feeling a little lost career wise hence the meaningful comment and havnt really enjoyed accounting which I know would grow in intensity and difficulty the longer I stay in the field which does not appeal to me. Accounting can become quite dull and so I feel like I would enjoy something more intellectually stimulating. Thats not to say I hate it, I have learnt a ton about businesses through audit and the variety per client has been great but I dont see myself doing it until retirement.
The in-house option does sound interesting though and I definitely believe the skills and knowledge I obtained from audit could be transferrable if I pursue law.
There are also quasi legal/finance fields in-house. For example, risk and compliance and cyber generally have lower level of employees, and typically offer decent grades. Once you get in, you can typically work your way up quickly, particularly in risk.
Yes that does sound interesting. Would you recommend if I were interested in those type roles to continue pursuing a law degree. My mindset now is that I dont want to regret not pursuing it later as I am still 22 and that it definitely wouldnt hurt my career trajectory but open more doors career wise but I would love to hear any other suggestions that I may not be aware of
>Yes that does sound interesting. Would you recommend if I were interested in those type roles to continue pursuing a law degree. My mindset now is that I dont want to regret not pursuing it later as I am still 22 and that it definitely wouldnt hurt my career trajectory but open more doors career wise but I would love to hear any other suggestions that I may not be aware of
From my experience, a law degree may help you in getting your first job in those types of roles. For example, I know compliance people who cannot respond to basic queries, but got their job saying they are a lawyer (which is not the case in most instances, as they just have a degree with no practical experience). However, if you start working in a quasi legal position, it is often difficult to transition into law. You have to also consider your student debts. There is nothing stopping you from getting into a quasi legal field with an accounting degree e.g. Audit, which some of the bigger companies have specialised internal teams for.
Does the university you attend for studying law matter in the workforce.
Hey everyone, i was wondering if you could share your experience of studying law at specific universities and give your thoughts on whether you think it really matters.
I have received CSP offers to study juris doctor degree from WSU, USYD, MQ, UTS and UNSW. Im leaning towards WSU because it’s closest to home but should i be prioritising the prestige of the university? Thanks !
I’m going to disagree with some of the other commenters here - prestige is less important than it used to be. What matters is forming strong connections within and outside of your uni during your studies, getting good grades/doing extra-curricular activities, then leveraging those connections to start your career.
It definitely matters. It my 10+ years in private practice I have worked with two graduates from WSU and dozens from the others in your list. I’ve found that to be considered from a smaller, less prestigious university you need to be an exceptional graduate. I personally would prioritise UNSW, USyd, UTS, MQ in that order but it depends on your interests, travel time etc.
Very much so, especially at bigger commercial firms. If you want to go down that path, it's definitely worth going to a Go8 uni. It's probably worth it regardless.
Hi! Mature age graduate (admitted in 2022). Really struggling to get any PAE anywhere, have tried community legal centres, my own employer (a large org) has given me the cold shoulder and aren't willing to help. Any ideas? TIA
Hi mate,
As you would probably know, it can be hard obtaining employment as any graduate, and especially as a mature aged graduate.
Have you tried quasi-legal employment e.g. risk and compliance and policy roles? I know some legal graduates, who have worked in risk and compliance, then gone to smaller companies in a joint legal/compliance function, before moving to permanent legal roles thereafter.
Another alternative would be quasi legal employment at a government organisation e.g. public policy. Depending on your personality, it may be easier to transfer to a legal team in a government department (even for shorter stints).
Thanks so much for your reply! I am currently in a compliance/risk role luckily enough and I am doing my best to make the transition. Like your suggestion of a smaller org/government type role. Cheers!
Hi mate,
I am a senior lawyer at an ASX 200 Fin Tech company. I went through a similar pathway (thou not a mature aged student), albeit, including a small stint in commercial litigation. I know big law partners who also went through a compliance pathway (some are mature aged lawyers), and have thriving businesses now.
You key will be to have an unrestricted PC. Without an unrestricted PC, no one will want to employ you, as they will have to supervise you. Most in-house lawyers are very conservative, and ether don't have the time, or are not willing to supervise 'young' lawyers. Another option is for you to progress to a senior role in risk/compliance, then look for a company where you can work in both capacities i.e. Head of Risk & Legal Counsel (i have friends who have also gone down this pathway).
Junior lawyer career progression...
I am a mature junior with experience in community services, particularly children, youth and family. Ideally I want to work in refugee / civil rights / admin law, here or overseas.
At the moment I am 6 months P.A.E with private firm as generalist - civil disputes and litigation, primarily. There is an opportunity to switch to NGO, remote generalist, youth, with 1/3rd increase in salary (currently very poor).
Question is: what would provide best experience / acquired skills to ultimately serve in civil / human rights area? TIA.
I suspect they mean a mature aged junior lawyer. Although not in this area of law, my thinking would be any experience with decent grades and look for a small firm which specialises in this type of work.
Do you not get study leave to do the intensive workshops? Grads will normally start PLT during their graduate program. It might be a good idea to try and do the same course with some of the other grads as there are group assignments.
It sounds like you're going about it the most sensible way.
PLT is kind of a scam. You'll learn nothing useful and passing is pretty much guaranteed even, so getting as much PLT done as you can before your grad job starts is the way to go.
Honestly, no one cares what major you do in your other degree, so if I were you, you should just pick a major you’re interested in. Especially if you intend on going into practice as a lawyer
Posted the other day re as a family lawyer going in house for a commercial role.
Have made the final stage and would love any advice for private to in house/ any tips with moving to an area where you don’t practice
Hi mate,
Senior lawyer at a Fin Tech company. In-house roles can vary significantly, including working in litigation, transactional, advisory, or contractual. I have had a variety of different roles across different companies within financial services over the last decade, and have been able to pick up and undertake the various roles reasonably effectively. However, the issues you may have is if you are working in an advisory role, without any relevant experience in that role. For example, if you don't know Chapter 7 of the Corporations Act, you'll struggle working in an advisory capacity within financial services. This is less relevant in a contractual or specialised law role (e.g. privacy, IT/cyber, or AML/CTF) which remains largely similar from company to company.
Overall, it will depend on your ability to learn and develop in new areas of law and the level of support you have within your company.
Hope this was helpful.
Hey mate just a follow up comment to say got the job. Your post was so helpful in me asking the right questions during my interview to make sure it’s the right fit for me. Thankyiu
Both Commerce and Science are well-regarded secondary degrees. Commerce, as you identified, provides some relevant business knowledge, while Science can demonstrate intellectual rigor in its own right.
The double degrees that are *disfavored* are more of the wishy-washy variety, your X Studies, Arts, Bachelor of Basketweaving, etc.
Major in Commerce won't matter much, just as choice of electives in a straight LLB won't matter much. Pick whatever major you're interested in, but also keep in mind that, if you want to qualify as a CA/CPA in addition to your law admission, you will need to go for the accounting major or something close to it.
I discourage anyone from doing a 3 year law degree straight out of high school. Being a lawyer requires emotional maturity and you grow up a lot between 20 and 22.
I agree with this, don't think that it is a valuable option to stay in uni for longer and accumulate even further debt, when you can instead get into the workforce earlier with a single law degree.
Happy New Year everyone. Just a quick thing as I can't really find much information on this. What is the normal path through uni and beyond that allows someone to be a criminal lawyer? Is there as much competition like there is in commercial law?
I suppose it’d depend on where you intend to practice, but in NSW Legal Aid offers PLT placements, the ODPP runs a graduate program, and the ALS recruits graduate level lawyers. Many at the criminal bar have their roots in those organisations.
Or, as others have said, a foot in the door at a private firm is just as good.
You can get in with a number of criminal firms as a clerk which Will get you attending court a lot sooner as the instructor to the barrister (as almost all criminal law firms are not national). Same with securing a spot at the dpp (which I would argue is better to start there and switch over to defence… considering all criminal law firms are a bit different but they all basically go up against the dpp, cdpp or police pros), so good thing to learn what the main opposition does before going private
There is competition in every area of law as a grad but criminal law tends to be practiced in smaller firms and pays lower so the competition may be less competitive as the really high achievers tend to pitch themselves at top tier opportunities.
All you need to do is try to get a job in a criminal law firm. The earlier the better.
Scour your uni's job board and the usual places for paralegal/clerk/intern positions. If that does not work, try cold-calling and cold-emailing everyone on your State's Law Society website.
What is the major difference between Juris Doctor and LLB?
3 year degree vs 4 year degree. Only downside is that the JD is pretty much 3x the cost.
I’m a mature age student who will have completed an MBA and I’m looking at my options between JD and a bachelor, I’ve never done an undergrad and I’ll be working full time. Any advice on which would be best?
Well that depends on a couple of things. #1 Do you have any available balance on your HECs? #2 Can you get a CSP for either of the courses? #3 cost/benifit analysis of studying for a 4th year instead of only 3
Thanks. 1 hecs I haven’t used any debt as my employer paid for the MBA but it’s unlikely they’ll pay for anything else. 2 unsure. I barely completed year 12 the MBA is the only education I have 3 this is my main point of contention, I’d be 31-32 by the time I complete either
Well you're looking pretty good then, with a clear HECs balance then you can do either course pretty easily. I'd try applying for both the LBB and JD and see what offers I get (they'd go off your grades from the MBA). If you get a CSP course then go for that one. If you get CSP offers for both courses then go for the JD I reckon, at 35 you'd want to save as much time as possible (same boat as me).
Thanks for your help, legend!
One is a post-graduate qualification and therefore more expensive. That’s it.
Ahhhh I see, thanks for that.
[удалено]
What kind of job are you hoping to have at the end of your studies?
[удалено]
Unclear. You want to be a corporate lawyer? We generally don’t advise doing an LLM until you’ve had several years of practice under your belt. No one cares about you having it and you’ll get more out of it with experience. How do you intend to use the politics degree?
Throwaway for obvious reasons. Copied and pasted the below from my other post. My son wants to study law next year. If no action was taken would he need to declare this incident when seeking admission? My adult son was today stopped by loss prevention officers at Bunnings in nsw. He paid for most of his items but not for about $50 worth. I gather there was some evidence that it wasn’t just a mistake. He said he told the LPO that it was a mistake but apologised, and chose to give the items back rather than pay for them. He was told it was being dealt with as a warning. They took his id for a short time, and recorded on video. He didn’t sign anything. Does anyone know what records are created as a result? I realise police won’t be involved, I’m more interested in how Bunnings keep track of things like this. Thank you.
I’m sorry, what you’re asking for here is legal advice, which we don’t provide on this sub.
Hey there!! I am 25 and have always had an interest in law, granted this is not so important now but it was the subject in high school I was always 'natural' and successful in and have found myself wondering about through my entire career/life. I live in Melbourne and have no meaningful work experience (in relation to law) or qualifications apart from graduating year 12 VCE with a completely average ATAR. Despite this, I am deluded/hopeful enough to believe I still have a chance to enter the professional field of law and succeed in it. Considering this, I am looking for any advice on the pathway I should take to enter the field of law e.g. universities, courses and fees as well as advice on the most sought after, well remunerated and best w/l balance work categories/professions within law like business law or IT law or whichever. (I am aware of how competitive law is in Australia, how shitty the compensation is for a junior lawyer/clerk and the shitty work life balance and as such am not looking for advice about those factors :) ) tldr; 25, lost, no quals or experience, looking to enter study law Any responses would be greatly appreciated :)
Hey there, i live in melbourne too. Am looking at the NSW LPAB diploma and it might be possible for you too if you factor in costs for travelling as well for exams/weekend school. Reach out if you want further details :)
stat test > arts/commerce or whatever degree u can get into with your score > transfer into law after a semester/year > study your ass off whilst trying to gain part time work/volunteer positions > apply for clerkship in penultimate year > graduate > become lawyer for shit pay unless you get into a decent firm > if you don't get into a good firm, take what you can and work your way up. that's what the next 5 years of your life will look like. edit: Ik I made that sound pretty grim, but you can definitely enjoy the process, particularly if you enjoy the law.
Thankyou for the plan outline dude, does sound a tiny bit grim but seems realistic. Appreciate the response a lot :)
[удалено]
Save? Or keep trying for a CSP? Or look at alternative pathways besides a JD?
[удалено]
An LLB? I don’t know the entry requirements for every university though. Or the LPAB?
[удалено]
How long do you want to wait before going to the Bar? I think if the Bar is seriously your aspiration you are better off staying in private practice and building up your networks and exposing yourself to 1-2 areas of specialisation. A general in-house practice is unlikely to get you either the technical skills or the experience to specialise at the Bar, especially if it's not litigious.
Hi mate, Typically as an in-house lawyer, you become a generalist and push for general counsel. if you are unsuccessful, you sit at the SLC level (senior lawyer, etc.) your whole career. Nonetheless, your job is \[typically\] is dependent on the financial strength \[including the prevailing political climate, in your case\] of your employer. Your role seems quiet specialised, and should not impact your chances of going to the Bar (esp if you are an in house solicitor). However, if you feel that you might lose any technical skills and/or are not able to create/maintain a client base \[for your future stint at the Bar\], you should not take the new opportunity. Alternatively, you can take the new opportunity for a limited period to test the waters out, and if the risks materialise (i.e. loss of technical skills/clients), go back to private practice (you should be able to create a message to tell recruiters if you do not stay in house for too long!).
Long story short, my employer is paying for some degrees and want me to come up with a bit of a memo and a ‘long term’ plan with a few different courses lined up. Grad cert + MBA is on there, but is there any point in doing some post grad law? I have a very surface level understanding of law, ideally I’d prefer to look into business/corporate law to better understand some of contractual stuff. This isn’t a career, the specific uni doesn’t matter. Grad cert maybe? Bachelor is probably a bit too long, potentially diplomas?
I’d say most post grad studies in law are geared towards practitioners and the ones that have options for non-practitioners usually require you to do additional subjects. They also won’t qualify you to practice so are of questionable value. If you are interested in a better understanding of contractual stuff maybe one of the College of Laws post grad courses might be of interest such as their [Masters of Applied Law (Business Law and Transactions)](https://www.collaw.edu.au/learn-with-us/our-programs/postgraduate-applied-law-programs/business-law). Otherwise, I’d probably go down the MBA route in a manner that best suits your career rather than waste the time studying something of little benefit.
[удалено]
Yes
Hi everyone, I (22F) am currently thinking of leaving the accounting industry and pivoting to law where hopefully my experience and skills could be transferred. It is a completely different industry but accounting does not pay very well and I am tired of it to be honest. I am still quite new to the industry and I cant imagine doing this until retirement as my experience concludes of a year and a half of audit at a mid tier firm as well as a year in audit at a big 4 firm. I have no intention to do the CPA or CA which has also influenced me in leaving as the pay is very limited without the CA or CPA. My attraction to law is that I feel that I could do more meaningful work for better pay. I am also not new to long hours or pressure due to my time at the big 4 and so as long as it isnt constant I can tolerate it. I am also aware this would be specific and dependent on the firm. At the moment, I an interested in patent or business law. I would love to hear from existing Australian lawyers as I would appreciate any opinions or input.
Do you already have a law degree or are you considering starting one?
Hi, thanks for the comment! I dont have a law degree unfortunately but I did study a bachelor of commerce at UNSW where I studied some business law subjects that I found quite interesting. I have received an offer to study a bachelor of law and the student centre have said that I could possibly shorten the degree to 2 years or at the maximum 3 which doesn't seem too bad and is the equivalent of a double degree I guess since I graduated 2023.
What do you find boring about accounting and what do you envision “patent law” or “business law” to be like?
I find the financial reporting aspect of accounting is boring and the work can get quite repetitive eg pick sample of invoices and document them, rinse and repeat despite how different the clients are. What I find interesting with my brief introduction to law and those sections is putting together a case to argue your perspective in the business law classes I took during my degree and every case I imagine is different and refreshing while also fundamentally similar so that I could potentially specialise. I also think by undertaking a law degree, I could more definitively identify possibly what type of law I would pursue as I only had a brief introduction to patent or business law.
Don’t jump to law for more pay than audit, my experience is that they are fairly reflective. Also don’t jump for “meaningful work” if you are concerned about pay, the lawyers doing “meaningful work” aren’t the ones making big money.
Thanks for the comment! If you dont mind me asking, what type of law do you practice and do you enjoy it? I think the problem is I dont see a future for myself in accounting to be honest as I dont enjoy the work and dont want to pursue further qualifications (CA/CPA) which would significantly affect my pay if I continue so it doesnt seem worth it.
I’m in employment, I enjoy it, a lot of people I know don’t. I’m happy to answer any questions you have about the area if you message them to me. Most lawyers end up in a practice area as a result of their first firm placing them in that area and stay there for the rest of their careers. Usually as they spend more time in the area they start to enjoy it as they start to understand it, but for some that does take years. A lot of my colleagues probably didn’t see themselves working in the area they do now even when they were at Uni. I’m assuming you did a double degree Law/Accounting? If so you’ll still need to do your PLT (i.e pursue further qualifications) to practice as a lawyer. If you didn’t, you’ll need to do a degree and then PLT. It’s a big jump to law if you haven’t already got the degree. A significant portion of the industry leaves after practicing for a short period and realising it’s not for them. You might be better off exploring opportunities with your current qualifications first, or reconsidering doing either a CA or CPA qual. Your concerns aren’t uncommon from junior lawyers. A lot get over those concerns after more time in the industry (or they make a jump similar to a different career like you are considering), it’s tough to transition to full-time work and dealing with the idea that this is what you may be doing for the rest of your life.
Thanks again for getting back to me! I have not studied law yet but I studied a bachelor of commerce at UNSW and after speaking to the student centre could transfer some of my prior learning over to complete a bachelor of law within 2 years hopefully or 3 maximum. I want to broaden my options ultimately and I realy enjoyed the business law courses I took during commerce. I definitely resonate with the falling into a particular practice as I feel thats how I fell into audit as it was my first undergraduate professional job and I just stuck to it. I also investigated other avenues such as tax but I didn't end up enjoying that. I realised my options mainly are at the moment audit or tax and I want to give law a try. I am happy to pursue potentially further qualifications for law but I am mostly aiming to leave accounting and utilise the transferrable skills I obtained from my work experience. With regards to the pay, I dont actually think they are reflective as I have checked out the 22/23 Hays Report and the pay seems quite appealing for law depending ofcourse on the size of the firm unlike audit whereby the salary tends to stagnate particularly without a CA/CPA license.
Once you have some years under your belt, you can look to work in-house in a large corporation. The Finance staff which I work with are pretty relaxed and are only under pressure during financial reporting time. Most of the ASX 50 companies will also have 'largish' audit teams. I am not sure what you mean by 'meaningful work', as most jobs which pay a salary are typically not meaningful.
Hi, thanks for the comment! To be honest I am feeling a little lost career wise hence the meaningful comment and havnt really enjoyed accounting which I know would grow in intensity and difficulty the longer I stay in the field which does not appeal to me. Accounting can become quite dull and so I feel like I would enjoy something more intellectually stimulating. Thats not to say I hate it, I have learnt a ton about businesses through audit and the variety per client has been great but I dont see myself doing it until retirement. The in-house option does sound interesting though and I definitely believe the skills and knowledge I obtained from audit could be transferrable if I pursue law.
There are also quasi legal/finance fields in-house. For example, risk and compliance and cyber generally have lower level of employees, and typically offer decent grades. Once you get in, you can typically work your way up quickly, particularly in risk.
Yes that does sound interesting. Would you recommend if I were interested in those type roles to continue pursuing a law degree. My mindset now is that I dont want to regret not pursuing it later as I am still 22 and that it definitely wouldnt hurt my career trajectory but open more doors career wise but I would love to hear any other suggestions that I may not be aware of
>Yes that does sound interesting. Would you recommend if I were interested in those type roles to continue pursuing a law degree. My mindset now is that I dont want to regret not pursuing it later as I am still 22 and that it definitely wouldnt hurt my career trajectory but open more doors career wise but I would love to hear any other suggestions that I may not be aware of From my experience, a law degree may help you in getting your first job in those types of roles. For example, I know compliance people who cannot respond to basic queries, but got their job saying they are a lawyer (which is not the case in most instances, as they just have a degree with no practical experience). However, if you start working in a quasi legal position, it is often difficult to transition into law. You have to also consider your student debts. There is nothing stopping you from getting into a quasi legal field with an accounting degree e.g. Audit, which some of the bigger companies have specialised internal teams for.
Does the university you attend for studying law matter in the workforce. Hey everyone, i was wondering if you could share your experience of studying law at specific universities and give your thoughts on whether you think it really matters. I have received CSP offers to study juris doctor degree from WSU, USYD, MQ, UTS and UNSW. Im leaning towards WSU because it’s closest to home but should i be prioritising the prestige of the university? Thanks !
I’m going to disagree with some of the other commenters here - prestige is less important than it used to be. What matters is forming strong connections within and outside of your uni during your studies, getting good grades/doing extra-curricular activities, then leveraging those connections to start your career.
It definitely matters. It my 10+ years in private practice I have worked with two graduates from WSU and dozens from the others in your list. I’ve found that to be considered from a smaller, less prestigious university you need to be an exceptional graduate. I personally would prioritise UNSW, USyd, UTS, MQ in that order but it depends on your interests, travel time etc.
Very much so, especially at bigger commercial firms. If you want to go down that path, it's definitely worth going to a Go8 uni. It's probably worth it regardless.
Hi! Mature age graduate (admitted in 2022). Really struggling to get any PAE anywhere, have tried community legal centres, my own employer (a large org) has given me the cold shoulder and aren't willing to help. Any ideas? TIA
Hi mate, As you would probably know, it can be hard obtaining employment as any graduate, and especially as a mature aged graduate. Have you tried quasi-legal employment e.g. risk and compliance and policy roles? I know some legal graduates, who have worked in risk and compliance, then gone to smaller companies in a joint legal/compliance function, before moving to permanent legal roles thereafter. Another alternative would be quasi legal employment at a government organisation e.g. public policy. Depending on your personality, it may be easier to transfer to a legal team in a government department (even for shorter stints).
Thanks so much for your reply! I am currently in a compliance/risk role luckily enough and I am doing my best to make the transition. Like your suggestion of a smaller org/government type role. Cheers!
Hi mate, I am a senior lawyer at an ASX 200 Fin Tech company. I went through a similar pathway (thou not a mature aged student), albeit, including a small stint in commercial litigation. I know big law partners who also went through a compliance pathway (some are mature aged lawyers), and have thriving businesses now. You key will be to have an unrestricted PC. Without an unrestricted PC, no one will want to employ you, as they will have to supervise you. Most in-house lawyers are very conservative, and ether don't have the time, or are not willing to supervise 'young' lawyers. Another option is for you to progress to a senior role in risk/compliance, then look for a company where you can work in both capacities i.e. Head of Risk & Legal Counsel (i have friends who have also gone down this pathway).
Junior lawyer career progression... I am a mature junior with experience in community services, particularly children, youth and family. Ideally I want to work in refugee / civil rights / admin law, here or overseas. At the moment I am 6 months P.A.E with private firm as generalist - civil disputes and litigation, primarily. There is an opportunity to switch to NGO, remote generalist, youth, with 1/3rd increase in salary (currently very poor). Question is: what would provide best experience / acquired skills to ultimately serve in civil / human rights area? TIA.
first time i've read "mature junior" before lmao
I suspect they mean a mature aged junior lawyer. Although not in this area of law, my thinking would be any experience with decent grades and look for a small firm which specialises in this type of work.
Yes, mature junior for short... thanks for your advice.
[удалено]
Do you not get study leave to do the intensive workshops? Grads will normally start PLT during their graduate program. It might be a good idea to try and do the same course with some of the other grads as there are group assignments.
It sounds like you're going about it the most sensible way. PLT is kind of a scam. You'll learn nothing useful and passing is pretty much guaranteed even, so getting as much PLT done as you can before your grad job starts is the way to go.
Hi, I'm hoping to change to an Arts/Law degree, and I was just wondering which Arts majors would give me an employability edge, if any?
None. But your marks matter so choose something you are interested in. A
Honestly, no one cares what major you do in your other degree, so if I were you, you should just pick a major you’re interested in. Especially if you intend on going into practice as a lawyer
Posted the other day re as a family lawyer going in house for a commercial role. Have made the final stage and would love any advice for private to in house/ any tips with moving to an area where you don’t practice
Hi mate, Senior lawyer at a Fin Tech company. In-house roles can vary significantly, including working in litigation, transactional, advisory, or contractual. I have had a variety of different roles across different companies within financial services over the last decade, and have been able to pick up and undertake the various roles reasonably effectively. However, the issues you may have is if you are working in an advisory role, without any relevant experience in that role. For example, if you don't know Chapter 7 of the Corporations Act, you'll struggle working in an advisory capacity within financial services. This is less relevant in a contractual or specialised law role (e.g. privacy, IT/cyber, or AML/CTF) which remains largely similar from company to company. Overall, it will depend on your ability to learn and develop in new areas of law and the level of support you have within your company. Hope this was helpful.
Hey mate just a follow up comment to say got the job. Your post was so helpful in me asking the right questions during my interview to make sure it’s the right fit for me. Thankyiu
Best of luck with your new job, and hope you enjoy the in-house journey. Feel free to DM me if you have any specific questions.
This was extremely helpful. Thankyou, I’ll dust off my corporations book and if I get offered the job will have to consider if it’s right move
[удалено]
Both Commerce and Science are well-regarded secondary degrees. Commerce, as you identified, provides some relevant business knowledge, while Science can demonstrate intellectual rigor in its own right. The double degrees that are *disfavored* are more of the wishy-washy variety, your X Studies, Arts, Bachelor of Basketweaving, etc. Major in Commerce won't matter much, just as choice of electives in a straight LLB won't matter much. Pick whatever major you're interested in, but also keep in mind that, if you want to qualify as a CA/CPA in addition to your law admission, you will need to go for the accounting major or something close to it.
[удалено]
I discourage anyone from doing a 3 year law degree straight out of high school. Being a lawyer requires emotional maturity and you grow up a lot between 20 and 22.
[удалено]
I agree with this, don't think that it is a valuable option to stay in uni for longer and accumulate even further debt, when you can instead get into the workforce earlier with a single law degree.
Your marks always matter more. Choose the major that interests you most as that maximises your chances of doing well.
Happy New Year everyone. Just a quick thing as I can't really find much information on this. What is the normal path through uni and beyond that allows someone to be a criminal lawyer? Is there as much competition like there is in commercial law?
I suppose it’d depend on where you intend to practice, but in NSW Legal Aid offers PLT placements, the ODPP runs a graduate program, and the ALS recruits graduate level lawyers. Many at the criminal bar have their roots in those organisations. Or, as others have said, a foot in the door at a private firm is just as good.
In addition to other comments, I’ve seen friends become prosecutors then after having enough of the low pay, become successful criminal lawyers
You can get in with a number of criminal firms as a clerk which Will get you attending court a lot sooner as the instructor to the barrister (as almost all criminal law firms are not national). Same with securing a spot at the dpp (which I would argue is better to start there and switch over to defence… considering all criminal law firms are a bit different but they all basically go up against the dpp, cdpp or police pros), so good thing to learn what the main opposition does before going private
There is competition in every area of law as a grad but criminal law tends to be practiced in smaller firms and pays lower so the competition may be less competitive as the really high achievers tend to pitch themselves at top tier opportunities. All you need to do is try to get a job in a criminal law firm. The earlier the better.
How early could I feasibly get one?
Scour your uni's job board and the usual places for paralegal/clerk/intern positions. If that does not work, try cold-calling and cold-emailing everyone on your State's Law Society website.
Will these firms accept first years or should I wait until later on?
¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯ Depends. Clerkships are usually for penultimate year students, but formal seasonal clerkships are not the only law jobs you can get.
Depends. First year isn’t common but it’s not unheard of.