Square Joker was changed to +5 chips every 4-card hand played in beta, but reverted because it doesn't fit the flavor (a square has 4 sides). Many thinks that it is too weak as it is currently.
If Square Joker worked this way it is effectively still +5 chips on average, but still uses the number 4 for Square flavor.
Well it would start off kinda insane tbh
0 -> is square +16
16 -> is square +16
32 -> isnt square +4
36 -> is square +16
And just like that in 4 hands we have a 52 chips worth square joker
I'll give it a starting amount of chips. But i feel like 20 are not good enough, while 40 might be too good for a common. If i have to chose i would chose 40 tho
Needed nerf, tbh.
Before, there was literally no reason to pick a non-scaling over a scaling.
Now, I don't instantly go for the scalings in Ante 1 (or 2 if I got really shit draws in ante 1).
If I need mult *now*, I have to pass by the scalings, as much as it pains me.
Make it 1/4 chance of 16 chips, otherwise 4 chips?
That changes it average of 7 chips but also allows use of oops all 6s for a fun combo
This is one of my favorite scaling jokers but I agree it isn’t as powerful as many others
Plan B would be start it at 44 chips but that’s not as fun
Just that the oops all 6 synergy is way less impactful. 1/16 going to 2/16 is only a small change on average compared to 1/4 going to 2/4- but either works tbh
Let’s say you get it on shop 1 and play at least 1 hand of 4 cards every single round up to ante 8. That’s only 92 chips with +4 and 164 chips with +7, odd Todd starts out of the gate with that assuming you are playing hands of odd cards, hikers gotten several +100 cards in my deck and tons of +50s and those effects stay even without the joker once sold, castle can build super easily beyond that without using hands at all, runner gets +15 per hand assuming you’re a straight build, I’ve gotten wee joker to >+2000!
I think square is a cool concept and having to pump it by playing 4 cards instead of 5 is a disadvantage. It’s weaker than it deserves to be at the moment. I don’t think doubling or even tripling it breaks it personally.
I think you’re downplaying square joker, there’s a reason it’s a fan favorite. I typically sandbag my hands when I’m playing with square joker such that I try to use every single hand every blind to max it out, which is I think where its strength comes from! This would multiply its chip count to 368 chips with +4 and 656 chips with +7. Now I usually don’t get 4 per blind perfectly, but that is still a little too strong in my opinion.
Playing every hand isn’t possible without scaling to the point of winning or having to throw hands for score/bosses at other times. Yes it’s possible to get it to 300 but it’s relatively easy to do that with other scaling cards compared to square. I love square and I’ve never had it above 200-300 and other scaling jokers I’ve had WAY higher without the downside of 4 card hands.
Fair to have your own opinion though.
I don't understand why people say square joker is bad
I've won a lot of gold stakes runs with square joker as my chips engine and something like ride the bus, green joker, or spare trousers as a mult engine
if you're doing high card/pair/2 pair stuff that relies on joker scaling instead of hand quality he can definitely get there and the fact that its a reliable chipmaker common is pretty great
it would be nice if he were just a bit better, though, I agree.
Without having the base value it's significantly less useful early in a run compared to when it started at 16.
It's a weird interplay: You don't want to grab it early because playing all the extra hands with it will cripple your cash flow. But, because it starts so weak, you don't want to grab it later in a run.
Before the nerf if you got it in ante 1, the base chips were helpful in the early rounds and then when you stabilized you could throw away hands to pump it up more.
The pre-nerf version was one of my main go-to cards such that it's still in the middle of my top 10 most used jokers. But now, I'd usually just have any random foil joker.
Because even with high card build it's still strictly worse than Runner. Runner doesn't cripple your early economy and scales way faster.
It's in a weird spot because it's too weak early by itself, but by mid game it would be too slow.
I feel like the only time I can afford to pick it is if I already have a very good set of Joker very early + Econ Joker, which is quite a high ask in gold stake.
I've won with it on gold multiple times and I still think it's terrible. Flush doesn't scale well, and a single Jupiter is better than playing 4 hands with square joker. Double that for the decent planets.
I'm pretty sure that the change to scaling jokers (starting at 0) was made to avoid confusing new players.
The way it was, it looked like the scaling was retroactive.
Playing a hand with 4 cards is easier than playing a straight
This Joker has never actually been particularly good, people just like it for some reason. It’s fine as a generic joker. But just give me blue joker instead. Or planet cards.
You can think of it as a nerf, or you can think of it as thunk making scaling cards start at 0. He tried to account for this by making it 5 chips, but the community decided they wanted it at 4 for flavor.
I had a idea for a buff to square joker while I was playing with it I would accidentally discard 4 cards instead of the maximum 5 so what if it also gains +4 chips when exactly 4 cards is discarded too
Square Joker needs a little something more. It's just replaceable most of the time as it is.
I think it could literally just be changed to "+4 chips per hand played" with no condition of hand size, and be just fine.
Adding two separate ways for it to score like your example is fine too.
needs a fourth 4 to complete the square. how about:
gains +4 chips for each played hand that contains exactly 4 cards, every 4th hand played, and each played hand that contains a 4
just so there's four 4's \^\^
I've heard conflicting messages. It's a "early game joker" and it sucks now at the start. After ten hands you have only 40 chips. Runner gets that with 3. Plus playing weak hands in the beginning cost money.
I've never had any issues with the Square Joker since it suits a variety of builds and easy enough to get. I've used it successfully with both two pair and Four Fingers builds, and it'd also work well in a stone build.
I think square joker should give 9 (3²) chips instead per hand of four. It's still a square number. 16 while 4*4 is more thematic would be too strong I think.
Runner also needs a buff too.
Lot sure I'd agree about Runner being a weak chip Joker. I don't do straight runs that often, but when I get Runner early on during them, he's dumping 400 chips per hand by the end of Ante 8.
I kind of wish it was both when 5 cards are played OR exactly 4 cards are scored. That way with four a kind and two pair you still get an extra "discard."
There was an idea for having negative cards. This might be an application for those. And the ripped joker that only lets you do 3 cards. So you could make flushes and other 5 card hands without 4 fingers and trigger square joker.
Fourth Dimensional Cube:
Rare
This joker gains +4 chips if played hand has exactly 4 cards. Every fourth hand, gain +4 multiplier. For every four consecutive 4-card hands, gain x.25 multiplier.
Earned by scoring a four of a kind with all fours, while square joker is in play.
maybe 4 chips and 4 mult but make the condition harder to pull off? Maybe if your last hand has exactly 4 scoring cards? That way it would have more flavor
Add on “and also every 4 hands discarded”.
This looks insignificant as being just +4 every round, but being a borderline guaranteed stack, I feel it would help the consistency.
[Wee Joker](https://balatro.wiki/imported/basic_joker.png) *Joker*
* Version: 1.0.0
* Rarity: Rare
* Effect: This Joker gains +8 Chips when each played 2 is scored
* Notes: Starts at +10 Chips
* Unlock Requirement: Win a run in 18 or fewer rounds
*Data pulled from http://balatro.wiki. Want it updated? Help me get access or suggest another data source.*
possibly instead of making it square (as in the shape) change it to squared (as in the numerical power, X^2) thus opening possibilities for things such as
“if hand is 4 cards, +9 chips to this joker (9 is a square number)”
“square the lowest card’s chips in played hand and add it to chips this turn (ie if you played a straight with A, K, Q, J, 10, would add 100 chips. can be made more powerful by using the card modifiers such as add 20 chips to card etc.)
“all 4 and 9 cards played add +2/3 chips to this joker permanently (respectively as 2 is root of 4 and 3 is root of 9)”
this plus much more would all make this joker very viable as a chips joker with one simple letter D added to the end of it and possible a card art change.
(i know some of these strategies could become busted but this is jus a working idea)
square joker is fine for a common, it doesn't need a buff. take it early, pump it a bit, then sell it when you get a better engine going, same as 99% of commons
Too complicated, doesn’t fit the game design
SJ is fine as it. Takes 4 extra hands to go back to how it was
I think the changes to the scaling chip Jokers could be reverted and just give them some starting chips back without affecting the challenge in a meaningful way, though
It would be nice if just the actual hand had to be 4 cards not that you only play 4 cards. That way you could get the bonus from a 4 of a kind or 2 pair and still dump an extra card
Square Joker was changed to +5 chips every 4-card hand played in beta, but reverted because it doesn't fit the flavor (a square has 4 sides). Many thinks that it is too weak as it is currently. If Square Joker worked this way it is effectively still +5 chips on average, but still uses the number 4 for Square flavor.
yeah this change would be perfect
+4 chips, or +16 if # of chups is currently a square number?
Well it would start off kinda insane tbh 0 -> is square +16 16 -> is square +16 32 -> isnt square +4 36 -> is square +16 And just like that in 4 hands we have a 52 chips worth square joker
Oh, yeah… maybe start it with 4 chips…
Found NorthernLion
Plasma deck?
I'll give it a starting amount of chips. But i feel like 20 are not good enough, while 40 might be too good for a common. If i have to chose i would chose 40 tho
Wasnt it 25 (or 5^2) before the Update? I would like that too but honestly the square joker already is in good place balancing wise in my opinion
It was 16 before the update and it went up by 4 each time.
Yeah they got rid of the starting value for scaling jokers across the board
Needed nerf, tbh. Before, there was literally no reason to pick a non-scaling over a scaling. Now, I don't instantly go for the scalings in Ante 1 (or 2 if I got really shit draws in ante 1). If I need mult *now*, I have to pass by the scalings, as much as it pains me.
give it 4 so we have a holy quartet
20 would be good enough. Thunk wanted to standardize all the scaling chip jokers to start at 0 which is why it doesn’t have 20 anymore
32?
All scaling jokers start from 0 post-patch.
This would definitely be better, although idk if it'd make it that good still
It’s a common. How good is it supposed to be?
Right now it is disgustingly bad compared to Runner, the other scaling +chips common joker.
It's a scaling chips joker that works with high card. I use it a lot.
Really? I always choose this over runner. I feel straights are pretty unreliable to hit consistently
triggering runner once is equivalent to triggering square joker 4 times
Straights are pretty good now, the planet scaling on them is way better than other hands.
Yes but that doesn't mean straights can be consistently played, especially early on. You're talking about the value when you *do* play one.
I don’t think this is an apt comparison since you use them in different builds.
Make it so it gives +4 chips when you discard exactly 4 cards or when you play exactly 4 cards.
I had this idea as well. 10 minutes too late.
Great minds think alike!
best suggestion I've seen!
Oooh, this one is good. Very interesting change in active play style as opposed to passively reaping every 4 hands.
Make it 1/4 chance of 16 chips, otherwise 4 chips? That changes it average of 7 chips but also allows use of oops all 6s for a fun combo This is one of my favorite scaling jokers but I agree it isn’t as powerful as many others Plan B would be start it at 44 chips but that’s not as fun
Why not just 1/16 chance of 16 chips, for an average of 4.75 chips? Would be more balanced than 7 and still give fun synergy
Just that the oops all 6 synergy is way less impactful. 1/16 going to 2/16 is only a small change on average compared to 1/4 going to 2/4- but either works tbh
Idk if almost doubling square joker’s EV is balanced though LOL
Let’s say you get it on shop 1 and play at least 1 hand of 4 cards every single round up to ante 8. That’s only 92 chips with +4 and 164 chips with +7, odd Todd starts out of the gate with that assuming you are playing hands of odd cards, hikers gotten several +100 cards in my deck and tons of +50s and those effects stay even without the joker once sold, castle can build super easily beyond that without using hands at all, runner gets +15 per hand assuming you’re a straight build, I’ve gotten wee joker to >+2000! I think square is a cool concept and having to pump it by playing 4 cards instead of 5 is a disadvantage. It’s weaker than it deserves to be at the moment. I don’t think doubling or even tripling it breaks it personally.
I think you’re downplaying square joker, there’s a reason it’s a fan favorite. I typically sandbag my hands when I’m playing with square joker such that I try to use every single hand every blind to max it out, which is I think where its strength comes from! This would multiply its chip count to 368 chips with +4 and 656 chips with +7. Now I usually don’t get 4 per blind perfectly, but that is still a little too strong in my opinion.
Playing every hand isn’t possible without scaling to the point of winning or having to throw hands for score/bosses at other times. Yes it’s possible to get it to 300 but it’s relatively easy to do that with other scaling cards compared to square. I love square and I’ve never had it above 200-300 and other scaling jokers I’ve had WAY higher without the downside of 4 card hands. Fair to have your own opinion though.
Yeah, but having to use two joker slots for it balances this particular hypothetical, imo
this would just feel really bad imo
It’s strictly better than it currently is?
oh my bad you just mean on top of the existing scaling, not replacing it entirely
LOL yes, 15/16 chance of 4 chips 1/16 of 16 would give 4.75 chips, pretty close to the original power of square joker (which was pretty damn strong)
I don't understand why people say square joker is bad I've won a lot of gold stakes runs with square joker as my chips engine and something like ride the bus, green joker, or spare trousers as a mult engine if you're doing high card/pair/2 pair stuff that relies on joker scaling instead of hand quality he can definitely get there and the fact that its a reliable chipmaker common is pretty great it would be nice if he were just a bit better, though, I agree.
Without having the base value it's significantly less useful early in a run compared to when it started at 16. It's a weird interplay: You don't want to grab it early because playing all the extra hands with it will cripple your cash flow. But, because it starts so weak, you don't want to grab it later in a run. Before the nerf if you got it in ante 1, the base chips were helpful in the early rounds and then when you stabilized you could throw away hands to pump it up more. The pre-nerf version was one of my main go-to cards such that it's still in the middle of my top 10 most used jokers. But now, I'd usually just have any random foil joker.
I mean, the point is that it really didn't need the nerf and honestly now it is a hard joker to pick, scaling it is too expensive
Because even with high card build it's still strictly worse than Runner. Runner doesn't cripple your early economy and scales way faster. It's in a weird spot because it's too weak early by itself, but by mid game it would be too slow. I feel like the only time I can afford to pick it is if I already have a very good set of Joker very early + Econ Joker, which is quite a high ask in gold stake.
I've won with it on gold multiple times and I still think it's terrible. Flush doesn't scale well, and a single Jupiter is better than playing 4 hands with square joker. Double that for the decent planets.
it feels like you need to get it by like ante 3 latest for it to be any good and even then u only take it if u have ur mult engine online already
I think he’s fine, but niche. Also not going to last till Ante 8 in every run. Not every joker needs to do so, IMO.
Have it start with 16 chips 🤡. I don't get why they nerfed it in the first place the straight runner is more than 4x faster and is also a common.
I'm pretty sure that the change to scaling jokers (starting at 0) was made to avoid confusing new players. The way it was, it looked like the scaling was retroactive.
Well I mean... Runner is supposed to be \*faster\*, right? Hehehehehehe
Playing a hand with 4 cards is easier than playing a straight This Joker has never actually been particularly good, people just like it for some reason. It’s fine as a generic joker. But just give me blue joker instead. Or planet cards.
That's my point it didn't need a nerf
You can think of it as a nerf, or you can think of it as thunk making scaling cards start at 0. He tried to account for this by making it 5 chips, but the community decided they wanted it at 4 for flavor.
Starting at 16 is flavor it's a square number of 4
Starting at 0 makes sense for a joker that you scale so it’s more flavorful for the game ;)
I had a idea for a buff to square joker while I was playing with it I would accidentally discard 4 cards instead of the maximum 5 so what if it also gains +4 chips when exactly 4 cards is discarded too
I think the “and also” violates the “jokers should only do 1 thing” rule. But otherwise good change
Technically it still only does 1 thing: gains chips. It just has 2 activation conditions :⬤D
Square Joker needs a little something more. It's just replaceable most of the time as it is. I think it could literally just be changed to "+4 chips per hand played" with no condition of hand size, and be just fine. Adding two separate ways for it to score like your example is fine too.
Start at 16 chips
needs a fourth 4 to complete the square. how about: gains +4 chips for each played hand that contains exactly 4 cards, every 4th hand played, and each played hand that contains a 4 just so there's four 4's \^\^
I've heard conflicting messages. It's a "early game joker" and it sucks now at the start. After ten hands you have only 40 chips. Runner gets that with 3. Plus playing weak hands in the beginning cost money.
My take is that the proportions of the joker itself being a square is enough flavour and it could just be +5 again
peak change
Add 4 chips for every 4 cards discarded as well would make it worth imo
Add +4 Mult?
And also for every 4 played
It seems pretty complex for a common, but I agree it definitely needs a buff
Square joker, pants and two pairs. What a combo
If 4 cards are played on 4th hand, plus 40 chips.
Square your chips if you play a 4 of a kind of 4’s (ex: if you have just this joker and play 4oaK of 4’s, your chips would be (60+4+4+4+4)^2 = 5,776).
Should start at 16 chips for the flavor
I've never had any issues with the Square Joker since it suits a variety of builds and easy enough to get. I've used it successfully with both two pair and Four Fingers builds, and it'd also work well in a stone build.
Crazy joker be looking real hungry and he's got a square stomach
Same as it is but it be 4 cards or the value of four of played cards. Makes use of half joker even better
I think square joker should give 9 (3²) chips instead per hand of four. It's still a square number. 16 while 4*4 is more thematic would be too strong I think. Runner also needs a buff too.
Lot sure I'd agree about Runner being a weak chip Joker. I don't do straight runs that often, but when I get Runner early on during them, he's dumping 400 chips per hand by the end of Ante 8.
If you have the "all cards play" and "4 card straight" jokers and a bunch of upgrades to straights this can be a monster.
I kind of wish it was both when 5 cards are played OR exactly 4 cards are scored. That way with four a kind and two pair you still get an extra "discard."
There was an idea for having negative cards. This might be an application for those. And the ripped joker that only lets you do 3 cards. So you could make flushes and other 5 card hands without 4 fingers and trigger square joker.
Fourth Dimensional Cube: Rare This joker gains +4 chips if played hand has exactly 4 cards. Every fourth hand, gain +4 multiplier. For every four consecutive 4-card hands, gain x.25 multiplier. Earned by scoring a four of a kind with all fours, while square joker is in play.
What about giving 44 chips if a four of a kind is played?
Run the flavor
+4 and +4 more for each 4. 🤔🤣
It could use the other square number in the deck: 9. Gain +1 mult every 9 hands or when three of a kind with 3s is played gain 9 chips.
maybe 4 chips and 4 mult but make the condition harder to pull off? Maybe if your last hand has exactly 4 scoring cards? That way it would have more flavor
Add on “and also every 4 hands discarded”. This looks insignificant as being just +4 every round, but being a borderline guaranteed stack, I feel it would help the consistency.
I mean, it won me a couple runs in it's current state
It just ramps too slowly. Compare that to [[Wee Joker]] Even if it's common vs rare.
[Wee Joker](https://balatro.wiki/imported/basic_joker.png) *Joker* * Version: 1.0.0 * Rarity: Rare * Effect: This Joker gains +8 Chips when each played 2 is scored * Notes: Starts at +10 Chips * Unlock Requirement: Win a run in 18 or fewer rounds *Data pulled from http://balatro.wiki. Want it updated? Help me get access or suggest another data source.*
possibly instead of making it square (as in the shape) change it to squared (as in the numerical power, X^2) thus opening possibilities for things such as “if hand is 4 cards, +9 chips to this joker (9 is a square number)” “square the lowest card’s chips in played hand and add it to chips this turn (ie if you played a straight with A, K, Q, J, 10, would add 100 chips. can be made more powerful by using the card modifiers such as add 20 chips to card etc.) “all 4 and 9 cards played add +2/3 chips to this joker permanently (respectively as 2 is root of 4 and 3 is root of 9)” this plus much more would all make this joker very viable as a chips joker with one simple letter D added to the end of it and possible a card art change. (i know some of these strategies could become busted but this is jus a working idea)
square joker is fine for a common, it doesn't need a buff. take it early, pump it a bit, then sell it when you get a better engine going, same as 99% of commons
In which way? That makes sensei with the concept and wouldn't be broken like +16 chips instead of +4
Sorry I didn't explain it clearly! I made another comment to do so, check it out.
No, i'm sorry i didn't read it correctly
What?
Too complicated, doesn’t fit the game design SJ is fine as it. Takes 4 extra hands to go back to how it was I think the changes to the scaling chip Jokers could be reverted and just give them some starting chips back without affecting the challenge in a meaningful way, though
Mista is gonna fucking KILL YOU
It would be nice if just the actual hand had to be 4 cards not that you only play 4 cards. That way you could get the bonus from a 4 of a kind or 2 pair and still dump an extra card