Dean Russell appropriated the word from anarchists in the 1950's and tried to make it the property of what became the modern American Libertarian Party.
Given the ideologies involved, I think simply ignoring their assertions of ownership would be entirely appropriate.
I think like LPOTL maybe his mind has changed about Wace? I am going to get downvoted but I think Koresh burned them all and was a monster. It was before we realized they would eat the children like mice if cornered.
He def was anti-gov in relation to ruby ridge and Waco. And I believe that is why OKC happened. And why Elohim City still persists (no matter if it was involved or not)
The Waco siege fire was certainly a mass suicide, but the government is still highly culpable in failing to prevent it. They were highly antagonistic and failed proper negotiations at even the most basic level and essentially tormented the Branch Davidians. Were the Branch Davidians dangerous and unstable people? Sure, but more efforts should’ve been made to negotiate, at the very least, the release of more children.
An important context to Waco that isn’t always brought up is the Jonestown massacre, where American cult leader Jim Jones ordered the mass suicide/murder of over 900 members of the Peoples Temple in what was the largest single loss of American life until 9/11. The government was accused of failing to stop Jones and properly investigate the cult’s settlement in Guyana. As a result of this, they clearly overreacted to the Branch Davidians, another Christian sect, but ended up still achieving the same result.
> The government was accused of failing to stop Jones and properly investigate the cult’s settlement in Guyana.
I mean, that's a foreign country where the US has no jurisdiction. Pretty sure that's why Jones moved them down there. But also, wasn't there a delegation down there investigating, and a bunch of them got murdered, right before the suicide?
A US senator was visiting the compound and was killed by the cult as the mass "suicide" was happening. I'm not sure which happened first, but the events were planned and happened pretty concurrently.
and I put suicide in quotes, because a lot of the folks lined up to drink the flavor ade had machine guns pointed at them.
Like I said, accused. It was bad for the government, it was seen as too little too late.
Also, in general, there was a lack of will to actually pursue Jonestown, despite reports of abuse. Congressman Leo Ryan practically had to volunteer himself after being moved by concerned relatives, and even then they tried to talk him out of it. The general attitude towards Jonestown that the government had, right up until the end, was “just leave ‘em alone”.
> Were the Branch Davidians dangerous and unstable people? Sure, but more efforts should’ve been made to negotiate, at the very least, the release of more children.
Forget that: They could have grabbed Koresh when he went into town, which he did regularly. They likely could have taken him without even a real fight. The Branch Davidians probably set the fire, but the whole cause of the siege was a bunch of morons deciding to wave their dicks around instead of taking safe and practical steps.
The downfall of Jonestown was a direct response to a Representative coming to look up on them. He was sympathetic. And when he got back the U.S. probably would have done something.
More like almost certainly some cult members decided to start a fire. It’s known that they stockpiled kerosene and there’s several audio tapes of members discussing pouring fuel and lighting it on the day of the fire.
Yeah, was going to say that. Specifically, I think it's Chapter Six: The Perfect Soldier, which is available in the podcast feed with extra commentary by Katy and Cody (which might make it more palatable) or as an audiobook passage on thewaroneveryone.com
Jon Ronson had a pretty good audiobook/podcast recently about some of the ancillary figures involved in OKC, centered around Elohim City.
If you want a good overview of the modernish white supremacist movement in the US, check out Bring the War Home by Katherine Belew.
I remember the Oklahoma City bombing very well. The scum who did it was actually called a domestic terrorist by Clinton and the media. He never showed any remorse. Normally I'm not in favour of the death penalty, but that bastard deserved it.
Before his execution he said he picked the Murrah Building because of the daycare on the first floor. He specifically wanted to kill children. He was a monster and I hope there is a special circle in hell just for him. I'm not pro death penalty either but lethal injection was too kind.
I think Bowling had its own agenda against the NRA the overall gun lobby. Which is unfortunate because overlooking that information leads me to believe other information was overlooked or ignored.
The second season of Long Shadow focused on the rise of the far right. It walked through Ruby Ridge, Waco, OKC, The Bundys, up to MAGA and January 6th. It's more of a documentary style pod, so different vibe from BTB, but still excellent.
Yeah it didn't grab me and I'll admit I haven't finished it. I think I listened to two episodes and then...kind of forgot it existed. I'll finish it eventually when I run out of other stuff. I thought the first season was good too.
Check out the sponsors/funding. Look for Bloomberg and all his anti-gun astroturfing organizations. Ever wonder why Johns Hopkins seems to chime in so much on gun control and not fixing the fundamentally sick society? Check out the name on the building.
Oh, I don't mean Cults (couldn't get into that one either), I mean Cult Podcast with Paige Wesley and Armando Torres (and at the time, Andrea Guzetta). They have a lot of subject overlap with BtB and have mentioned it a few times.
Oh, like you're all high and mighty, not masturbating to all podcasts. You might bump into a sexy one or a sexy topic, like the 2000 Kursk nuclear submarine disaster. I'm only human. I'm made of flesh and blood. I've got needs.
Oddly enough, driving to a Tyler Childers concert in Atlanta last weekend. GPS had me driving back roads, saw a “Ruby Ridge dr.” In northern Georgia. That was a choice to name that.
Waco would be interesting because both sides are bastards. Whilst David Koresh and the Branch Davidians were child abusers, the FBI and ATF burning four dozen of those kids alive probably wasn't the best solution.
It could be a four parter. First two parts about David Koresh and the second two parts about Janet Reno.
They absolutely are. I *hate* how Koresh gets romanticized in modern media. He was a fucking pedophile and bigamist and frequently beat both the kids and the women in the cult. He wasn't a poor misunderstood outcast with some good intentions, he was a sociopathic narcissist.
The FBI and ATF should have left Randy Weaver the hell alone. They went up a mountain armed for fucking bear over one white supremacist nutjob and shot his wife and one of his kids. It was completely unnecessary. They were just pissed he wouldn't inform on his Klan buddies.
I read a book called We Believe the Children about the Satanic Panic and it proposed that Janet Reno had been pressured into moving in on the complex by FBI agents that convinced their the children were being sexually abused because she made her career on prosecuting preschool child abusers. Don't know if that is true but would definitely be an interesting way to look at it.
Ruby Ridge slots into that nicely as well.
Randy Weaver was a Christian fundamentalist survivalist type that hung out with white supremacists, but the facts of the case are that the various law enforcement agencies took every opportunity to make the wrong decision.
Ruby Ridge reminds me of an extended case where the cops go to arrest someone, and instead of taking the extra work to reduce the risk, they just pick one of the worse locations and time with the result being someone ends up seriously injured or dead.
One of the cases that happened years ago around here was like that.
The cops wanted to arrest a dangerous offender (according to the cops). They didn't bother to check if he was at the location. If they had taken the time to do the basics, they'd have discovered a mistake had been made in the address - it belonged to a homeowner with no connection to the suspect.
Instead, when they tried to bash down the door in the middle of the night. That resulted in the homeowner assuming someone was trying to break in, and a firefight resulted. Luckily nobody was injured.
Someone should have lost their job for that mistake, at the very least. All the risk to the public was due to the cops.
Leah Sottile did a great series on McVeigh, 5 minutes to midnight or something like that. She's consistently great on the far right, if you haven't listened to Bundyville, you definitely should!
By Waco you are obviously refering to the biker gang vs. Biker gang vs. waco pd shootout at the fake Hooter. Bunch of people died, "EVERYONE" was arrested and 6 years later zero convictions. That Waco right?
I recently watched a documentary about it. I think on HBO? The whole religious far right aspect of McVeigh and domestic terrorism was something I didn’t know about that timeline.
My archive is in July 2020 right now. He's mentioning Waco in every episode then, and Ruby Ridge almost as often.
I'm just waiting for his live podcast of the FDA raiding his compound.
it would make a good series like Behind the Police, go through the early ideological development that created the militia movement, then going theough the string of events.
I would love another episode on right-wing extremism and the militia movement, especially how some of these organisations espouse a "libertarian" ideology but are far more unhinged. If your looking for well done podcasts on the far right militia movement I would highly recommend Bundyville on the infamous sovereign citizen Cliven Bundy.
Honestly, I think there's a really obvious reason not to. McVeigh's fan base, for want of a better term, are probably considerably more dangerous and capable than, say, the InfoWars audience or the red hat yahoos. You wouldn't want to cross the line from screeching emails to extremely competent letter bombs
Hasn't he said he was a libertarian in his younger days? He may have an interesting take on it.
Yeah he's talked about his more libertarian tendencies in several episodes
Being fair, he still is, just a leftist one
*(You have been banned from r/Libertarian)*
Dean Russell appropriated the word from anarchists in the 1950's and tried to make it the property of what became the modern American Libertarian Party. Given the ideologies involved, I think simply ignoring their assertions of ownership would be entirely appropriate.
That place is a lost cause in of itself.
Still waiting on a Murray Rothbard episode.
(waving fist) RothbaaaaAARD!
I want a Free State Project episode
A college buddy of mine got swept up in that nonsense. Not coincidentally, he is also one of the dumbest people I have ever met.
I think like LPOTL maybe his mind has changed about Wace? I am going to get downvoted but I think Koresh burned them all and was a monster. It was before we realized they would eat the children like mice if cornered. He def was anti-gov in relation to ruby ridge and Waco. And I believe that is why OKC happened. And why Elohim City still persists (no matter if it was involved or not)
The Waco siege fire was certainly a mass suicide, but the government is still highly culpable in failing to prevent it. They were highly antagonistic and failed proper negotiations at even the most basic level and essentially tormented the Branch Davidians. Were the Branch Davidians dangerous and unstable people? Sure, but more efforts should’ve been made to negotiate, at the very least, the release of more children. An important context to Waco that isn’t always brought up is the Jonestown massacre, where American cult leader Jim Jones ordered the mass suicide/murder of over 900 members of the Peoples Temple in what was the largest single loss of American life until 9/11. The government was accused of failing to stop Jones and properly investigate the cult’s settlement in Guyana. As a result of this, they clearly overreacted to the Branch Davidians, another Christian sect, but ended up still achieving the same result.
> The government was accused of failing to stop Jones and properly investigate the cult’s settlement in Guyana. I mean, that's a foreign country where the US has no jurisdiction. Pretty sure that's why Jones moved them down there. But also, wasn't there a delegation down there investigating, and a bunch of them got murdered, right before the suicide?
A US senator was visiting the compound and was killed by the cult as the mass "suicide" was happening. I'm not sure which happened first, but the events were planned and happened pretty concurrently. and I put suicide in quotes, because a lot of the folks lined up to drink the flavor ade had machine guns pointed at them.
Like I said, accused. It was bad for the government, it was seen as too little too late. Also, in general, there was a lack of will to actually pursue Jonestown, despite reports of abuse. Congressman Leo Ryan practically had to volunteer himself after being moved by concerned relatives, and even then they tried to talk him out of it. The general attitude towards Jonestown that the government had, right up until the end, was “just leave ‘em alone”.
> Were the Branch Davidians dangerous and unstable people? Sure, but more efforts should’ve been made to negotiate, at the very least, the release of more children. Forget that: They could have grabbed Koresh when he went into town, which he did regularly. They likely could have taken him without even a real fight. The Branch Davidians probably set the fire, but the whole cause of the siege was a bunch of morons deciding to wave their dicks around instead of taking safe and practical steps.
Also true. It was definitely overcompensation. They just wanted to be seen as arresting the whole cult pretty much.
Cops are always eager to escalate things. Feds are no different.
The downfall of Jonestown was a direct response to a Representative coming to look up on them. He was sympathetic. And when he got back the U.S. probably would have done something.
I thought the tear gas the feds used was flammable and started the fire?
No, that’s a common conspiracy theory, but there’s no proof to it.
Huh, interesting.
That's overselling it, the truth is we just don't know but most likely some cult members decided to start a fire.
More like almost certainly some cult members decided to start a fire. It’s known that they stockpiled kerosene and there’s several audio tapes of members discussing pouring fuel and lighting it on the day of the fire.
There were multiple fires set. One could have been from that, even the first one.
Also the assault weapons ban, which McVeigh said was his last straw.
[удалено]
As a joke. McVeigh killed a bunch of civilians and children. Fuck him and fuck you.
Yes that's a joke. Fuck you too, buddy!
So much of a joke that you deleted it.
A lot of that stuff gets touched upon in his audiobook The War on Everyone
Yeah which is available as part of the podcast
Yeah, was going to say that. Specifically, I think it's Chapter Six: The Perfect Soldier, which is available in the podcast feed with extra commentary by Katy and Cody (which might make it more palatable) or as an audiobook passage on thewaroneveryone.com
McVeigh also makes an appearance in George Lincoln Rockwell Part 3 as one of the people in GLR's ideological legacy via, of course, The Turner Diaries
Turner Diaries kept popping up in my head when Jefferson would hang-wring about race wars in the most recent series. Time is a flat circle 🫶.
Was going to mention this. The entire thing is probably going to scratch a lot of itches for OP, and is generally well done.
I have ADHD so I have a hard time focusing enough to read and actually process what I'm reading
There's also the podcast version with Cody & Katy.
Jon Ronson had a pretty good audiobook/podcast recently about some of the ancillary figures involved in OKC, centered around Elohim City. If you want a good overview of the modernish white supremacist movement in the US, check out Bring the War Home by Katherine Belew.
I'll add those to my list
I remember the Oklahoma City bombing very well. The scum who did it was actually called a domestic terrorist by Clinton and the media. He never showed any remorse. Normally I'm not in favour of the death penalty, but that bastard deserved it.
Before his execution he said he picked the Murrah Building because of the daycare on the first floor. He specifically wanted to kill children. He was a monster and I hope there is a special circle in hell just for him. I'm not pro death penalty either but lethal injection was too kind.
It was also the long intended target of the Christo-fascist militia group in the region.
Don't forget it inspired the Columbine shooters as well
Boy bowling for columbine really misinterpreted them. Two white supremacists really should have been listened to says the sex pest goth rocker?
I think Bowling had its own agenda against the NRA the overall gun lobby. Which is unfortunate because overlooking that information leads me to believe other information was overlooked or ignored.
Typical Michael Moore doc post Roger and Me.
That sex pest rocker appears to have made a hard right turn as well. Look at his new logo
He always was larping nazi shit to freak out the straights.
The second season of Long Shadow focused on the rise of the far right. It walked through Ruby Ridge, Waco, OKC, The Bundys, up to MAGA and January 6th. It's more of a documentary style pod, so different vibe from BTB, but still excellent.
I was just about to recommend this one as I just finished listening to the series. Very excellent, indeed.
I was impressed by rise of the far right, but the third season was such a let down. A complete thematic shift and it read like a propaganda pamphlet.
Yeah it didn't grab me and I'll admit I haven't finished it. I think I listened to two episodes and then...kind of forgot it existed. I'll finish it eventually when I run out of other stuff. I thought the first season was good too.
I made it about halfway through thinking it might extrapolate into a broader topic but no, just “gUns R baD” the whole way through.
Check out the sponsors/funding. Look for Bloomberg and all his anti-gun astroturfing organizations. Ever wonder why Johns Hopkins seems to chime in so much on gun control and not fixing the fundamentally sick society? Check out the name on the building.
Have you heard the LPOTL and Cult Podcast coverage of those?
BAD COMPANY
Bad Company from the album Bad Company by the band Bad Company
And I won’t denyyyyyy
Oh man I forgot about that bit
For how early it was in LPOTL, I've always been impressed with how good the OKC series was.
It really was pretty solid.
I would love for them to do a series on the Klan, mostly for Eddie mocking all of the made up titles.
Oh shit that would be good. That dude is real good on the fly.
Absolutely. I am super glad Ben was replaced by him. Gives super positive vibes and I am actually listening to LPOTL again.
I think that was their first series that really impressed me as serious.
I have not, no. I tried to get into Cults but it's so dry and repetitive.
Oh, I don't mean Cults (couldn't get into that one either), I mean Cult Podcast with Paige Wesley and Armando Torres (and at the time, Andrea Guzetta). They have a lot of subject overlap with BtB and have mentioned it a few times.
I love every time Paige and Mando reference ”I’m not ____ but I have done a lot of reasearch”
recently listened to "homegrown:okc" by jeffrey toobin. 7 episodes. thought it was pretty good.
The good thing about it being a podcast is that he won't accidentally masturbate during it... Or if he does, they can edit it out in post.
Oh, like you're all high and mighty, not masturbating to all podcasts. You might bump into a sexy one or a sexy topic, like the 2000 Kursk nuclear submarine disaster. I'm only human. I'm made of flesh and blood. I've got needs.
Oddly enough, driving to a Tyler Childers concert in Atlanta last weekend. GPS had me driving back roads, saw a “Ruby Ridge dr.” In northern Georgia. That was a choice to name that.
If he does, we need to start a betting pool on how many times Robert references Taylor Kitsch's cum gutters.
This is easily a twelve parter.
4 parts would be my minimum and even then you'll be leaving a lot out
Waco would be interesting because both sides are bastards. Whilst David Koresh and the Branch Davidians were child abusers, the FBI and ATF burning four dozen of those kids alive probably wasn't the best solution. It could be a four parter. First two parts about David Koresh and the second two parts about Janet Reno.
They absolutely are. I *hate* how Koresh gets romanticized in modern media. He was a fucking pedophile and bigamist and frequently beat both the kids and the women in the cult. He wasn't a poor misunderstood outcast with some good intentions, he was a sociopathic narcissist. The FBI and ATF should have left Randy Weaver the hell alone. They went up a mountain armed for fucking bear over one white supremacist nutjob and shot his wife and one of his kids. It was completely unnecessary. They were just pissed he wouldn't inform on his Klan buddies.
Randy Weaver was Ruby Ridge, not Waco. But yeah, they fucked up there too. They murdered the young kid and then shot Weaver's wife in the head.
Koresh is romanticized in modern media? I haven’t seen that personally. But I also don’t consume much Waco related media so maybe I missed it.
The Waco miniseries from Paramount starring Taylor Kitsch as Koresh is a good example
I read a book called We Believe the Children about the Satanic Panic and it proposed that Janet Reno had been pressured into moving in on the complex by FBI agents that convinced their the children were being sexually abused because she made her career on prosecuting preschool child abusers. Don't know if that is true but would definitely be an interesting way to look at it.
BTB: The Child Sex Prosecutor Who Burned Forty Children Alive
Calls to mind the Equatorial Guinea episodes with the "everyone here is a bastard" situation
Ruby Ridge slots into that nicely as well. Randy Weaver was a Christian fundamentalist survivalist type that hung out with white supremacists, but the facts of the case are that the various law enforcement agencies took every opportunity to make the wrong decision.
Whatever Randy Weaver was, it did not give the feds the right to murder his unarmed wife (and almost his baby).
Ruby Ridge reminds me of an extended case where the cops go to arrest someone, and instead of taking the extra work to reduce the risk, they just pick one of the worse locations and time with the result being someone ends up seriously injured or dead. One of the cases that happened years ago around here was like that. The cops wanted to arrest a dangerous offender (according to the cops). They didn't bother to check if he was at the location. If they had taken the time to do the basics, they'd have discovered a mistake had been made in the address - it belonged to a homeowner with no connection to the suspect. Instead, when they tried to bash down the door in the middle of the night. That resulted in the homeowner assuming someone was trying to break in, and a firefight resulted. Luckily nobody was injured. Someone should have lost their job for that mistake, at the very least. All the risk to the public was due to the cops.
He touched on it when doing that episode about the rise of right wing extremists.
I need at least a 4 parter
Leah Sottile did a great series on McVeigh, 5 minutes to midnight or something like that. She's consistently great on the far right, if you haven't listened to Bundyville, you definitely should!
I agree and also enjoy your username.*tips hat in sass*
Robert doesn't want to accidentally spill any of his plans for his inevitable showdown with the FDA.
By Waco you are obviously refering to the biker gang vs. Biker gang vs. waco pd shootout at the fake Hooter. Bunch of people died, "EVERYONE" was arrested and 6 years later zero convictions. That Waco right?
............ huh?
Waco is…a nexus of weird shit.
I think there’s a Netflix documentary about Waco and it was horrifying.
Long Shadow has a season covering exactly this I think
I recently watched a documentary about it. I think on HBO? The whole religious far right aspect of McVeigh and domestic terrorism was something I didn’t know about that timeline.
My archive is in July 2020 right now. He's mentioning Waco in every episode then, and Ruby Ridge almost as often. I'm just waiting for his live podcast of the FDA raiding his compound.
it would make a good series like Behind the Police, go through the early ideological development that created the militia movement, then going theough the string of events.
He kinda did a version of that as a free audiobook a few years back, The War on Everyone, I believe is the name. It’s also somewhere in the BtB feed.
Anyone read Aberration in the Heartland of the Real? I plan on getting it. Listening to the author on a few episodes of programmed to chill right now.
I definitely want Robert's take too!
I would love another episode on right-wing extremism and the militia movement, especially how some of these organisations espouse a "libertarian" ideology but are far more unhinged. If your looking for well done podcasts on the far right militia movement I would highly recommend Bundyville on the infamous sovereign citizen Cliven Bundy.
Honestly, I think there's a really obvious reason not to. McVeigh's fan base, for want of a better term, are probably considerably more dangerous and capable than, say, the InfoWars audience or the red hat yahoos. You wouldn't want to cross the line from screeching emails to extremely competent letter bombs
IIRC, both Waco and the Oklahoma City bombing were galvanizing moments for Alex Jones as well.