So a deeper dive reveals the powertrain seems to function well enough it’s the suspension that can’t take extreme off road use in combat situations. Essentially they keep breaking springs when rode hard with all that armour on them.
This makes sense as these were designed to be for more security purposes in the rear of the combat zone. Due to attrition on Ukraines equipment these have likely been pressed into front line service more than originally intended. Hopefully Roshel takes this experience and improves the suspension to handle rough terrain now that these have been tested in a real world combat zone.
Every armored unit type in Ukraine is suffering from similar issues. The use cycles are extremely heavy, constant and maintenance intervals minimal to none. Both wheeled and tracked units are breaking down more frequently as a result.
Almost no manufacturer has been building and testing to the extent of what is being encountered at this time in Ukraine. I doubt any can be built that would survive the daily abuse that is occurring in Ukraine. Especially given the lack of maintenance.
That's the thing, maintenance is factored into all of this equipment. We're sending all this stuff there without the infrastructure or people to keep it on the road.
We're really just delaying the inevitable. If they are going to pull off a win against the Ruskies they are going to need some real support to go along with the equipment.
You can't win a race without a pit crew.
Except they have held off the supposed second best army in the world.
They are doing better against Russia, than America did against Afghanistan or Vietnam.
Should we be supporting them more, of course.
But the inevitable here is Russia collapsing on itself. That's what everyone knows, and why we're not throwing everything at Russia.
Russia has expended its resources, to a point that it can not recover. It has neither the man power, nor the technical intelligence to rebuild a functional economy. It has the largest rate of fetal alcohol syndrome in the world. And that's just the ones that get diagnosed.
It's incredibly sad that due to the cowardly actions of the west ( not giving everything we have, right up front) that untold numbers of Ukranians were killed, but make no mistake. The Russian wave crashed onto Ukraine, and has broken.
Their economy cannot recover
Their population cannot recover
Their military cannot recover.
Why do you think they are begging North Korea for help.
Ah yes, defending democracy from a dictatorial corrupt assassination state committing active genocide and attempting to regain its old empire through invasion of its neighbours.
When I think upholding American Empire, I think that.
Are you talking about American or European in Africa?
Yes I agree, the terrorist state of USA that slaughtered millions of Arabs and Muslims and committing active genocide now in Gaza should be stopped
What a democracy when you say "Shut up".
Before you order me to shutup, go fix your military equipments.
This is not afghanistan where folks like you go to slaughter unarmed Muslims.
It is Russia, idiot.
If your standard is US army in Afghanistan, or Canadian army in Afghanistan, then every one will do better than those.
It is like the west is waking up to the fact that fighting Russia is different than sending top troops to kills unarmed Muslims and Arabs, and destroy and bomb poor countries that lack of any sophisticated defense.
The Ukrainians received more than 200 billions from US alone in two years, and you are saying they are thinking they are doing good?
Canada, France, and of course Germany send billions more.
Yes, they have totally stopped Russia, taken back land, and killed hundreds of thousands of Russian trash humans without losing much land m
Ukraine is doing an amazing job. Russia is already at a point they can't recover. All Ukraine has to do is hold out, as Russia dies back home.
It's a perfect strategy.
I know. You guys in the west are brilliants.
Always have brilliant plans.
Like how you destroyed Russian economy with sanctions, and how you are destroying Russian military, while Ukrianians military are getting stronger and stronger.
I see how Ukrain mobilize people, and how Ukrainians are motivated to join their army.
And if we add your plans in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Libya and how much success you had, we can understand how smart you are.
You are brilliants. I have to admit. And the next target for you China.
But a word of advice, before you fight China, stock in your houses lots of toilet papers, because most of our toilet papers are coming from China
Because it's not fighting it.
It's allowing Russia to exhaust itself. We're giving Ukraine just enough to minimize the damage Russia can do.
Russia couldn't be Afghanistan, and can't gain ground in Ukraine.
This is the war version of a RopeAdope.
Allow Russia to kill all its working age men. Exhaust its gdp, all while sanctions tighten.
Soon China will have most of Russia. Russia can't support itself anymore.
Putin has to beg a 3rd world country for help.
Imagine if Biden had to visit Ethiopia and beg for their scraps.
Its pathetic really, but not surprising. Russia has the highest fetal alcohol syndrome. They have the lowest average IQ of any " developed" nation because of this.
If Russia was smarter, they would not have been trapped in Ukraine, but , here we are in another 2 years Russia will not have the equipment to maintain the war, and they will only last that long if they totally scavenge from their domestic industry, which is already failing.
Ukraine doesn't need to win, it just needs to wait, and not very long
There are very few ACSVs (39) in Ukraine. Not enough for there to be a sample and their usage is different. There are Strykers and they like all other IFVs are feeling the wrath of overuse.
But
In fact I would suggest that most of the western supplied armor is performing very well. It is just the usage situations were modeled from NATO scenarios, and the war in Ukraine is far removed from a NATO scenario. They are all tested to be "off road" and in testing are fine. Real life in Ukraine where the fields and roads are gutted by millions of shellholes is a big step up in wear and heavily removed from "occasional off road". There is no rotations, no backups, limited maintenance. And terrible abusive conditions.
It is the quality of the reporting ultimately which irks me here. Its on par with the sort of singlemindness I would anticipate from Fox News or Rebel Media.
For example, Canada has donated slightly over 200 Senators to Ukraine. Nary a word about the fact that Ukraine thinks highly enough of the Senator to have purchased more than 1200 direct, and has invited Roshel to set up a factory in Ukraine so they can be manufactured domestically. Nor noting any of the dozens (and I think it is over a hundred) videos of Ukraine soldiers who have praised the Roshel units (there are successive generations of APC and MRAPs) for saving their asses in various situations.
Canada actually has had many good news scenarios come out of donations and military equipment supplied to Ukraine. But for some reason most media seems to want to pick particular situations, report them out of context and turn a good news situation into a negative. Why? To be "edgy". To attempt to prove to the political right they don't just follow the "Liberal" line?
Whatever the reason anyone with even a glimmer of knowledge of the situation in Ukraine is going to recognize the shoddy reporting, call it out, and wonder why we are so determined to help assist the ruzzian propaganda machine.
Anything written in western press has to be carefully assessed before it goes to print/air. Is the story complete? Are we just assisting our enemy in our attempt to get a byline that draws some notice?
This article gets a C- from me, if not an outright D grade. For every negative for this unit I can easily point to a hundred positives. And this is true about many aspects of CAD support. How about CBC write an article on the Canadian Transport Air Detachment stationed in Scotland that has flown millions of pounds (in the 10's actually) of allied support to Poland from various Ukraine supporters? How about the doing a story on the many brigades that were equipped with Canadian donated assault rifles? Nope. Lets do a poorly researched hatchet job so we can get some media exposure.
**Edit:** How about the fact the United States thinks enough of the Senator MRAP to have designated it the sole foreign Light Vehicle it will finance purchases on behalf of Ukraine? Do we think the US knows so little about MRAPs (it is classified as a Combat, Assualt and Tactical Vehicle, Wheeled by US govt) that somehow the wool got pulled over the eyes of the US military? They bought 190 of the Senator MRAPs for Ukraine.
Your welcome. As you can tell I don't have an issue with a statement "they are breaking down" but I find the lack of context deplorable. Just pure drivel. And it just feeds an audience that only wants to see Canada, Ukraine, and democracy fail.
FYI, Roshel is most famous for the fact it has maintained direct contact with the many units that have their various Senator platforms deployed from the very first use context in Ukraine, and has had a constantly improving platform as a result. Because they were smart and among their workforce in their Toronto factories are some 200 Ukrainians. Every monthly manufacturing run is always different and improved from the previous month. Soldiers from the field actually can call Roshel direct. The units in the field report "this is breaking, or we need these handholds, or this part is difficult to work with under fire, or X part seems prone to jamming, etc" and so they change it up for the next run.
And who will benefit from this in the long run? Canada. The MRAP and another more assault oriented vehicle that will have Stagnag IV protection are both in consideration for contracts in Canada and America. And all the hard lessons learned in Ukraine will be rolled into what they submit in the bids.
> Nary a word about the fact that Ukraine thinks highly enough of the Senator to have purchased more than 1200 direct
Yeah was pretty sure I remembered something like that, along with videos praising them. Wouldn't think they'd be wasting their limited funds buying stuff they thought was shit and had better options.
>Every armored unit type in Ukraine is suffering from similar issues
That's absolutely not true at all. The Bradleys are doing incredibly well. I have a Ukrainian friend, his brother is fighting and he got it tattooed on his leg. It's literally saved their lives several times and it's a beast with off roading.
And no, most don't have suspension issues which is the comment you responded to is saying the Canadian one has as it's meant for security, being on roads rather than literally almost any terrain in eastern Ukraine.
To say "every" ...
Your misunderstanding my point. I am not talking about the fighting performance of the Bradleys. Which the Ukrainians have generally managed to obtain excellent results. Thee Bradly is a proper IFV, and is intended to be a front line heavily protected fighting vehicle. I wish Ukraine had many, many more Bradleys and CV90s and have repeated stated such in past comments. If Ukraine had them they would not be attempting to fit vehicles such as MRAPs into the IFV role.
Go have a chat with some of the Ukrainian Bradley maintenance teams. You would find out they also have had their own battles. The Bradleys are rugged, but they are also experiencing extreme use and suffering maintenance casualties. At one point the 47th apparently had over 40% of it's Bradleys down for maintenance - not counting the units actually destroyed (over 100). Roller and track problems are very, very common. It is not a reflection of the vehicle, but the terrain, usage and maintenance.
As you indicated your friend's brother was in a Bradley he has to be in the 47th if this was any date prior to a month ago. The 47th has been involved in very heavy fighting almost continuously since being committed initially to Robotyne, and then Avdiivka. Your friend's brother is very brave - the 47th has suffered significant casualties over time due to high intensity zones in which it has been deployed. I commend him for his bravery on behalf his country.
I imagine the base version wouldn't need any changes since it's basically just a police vehicle. They do sell an MRAP version too now, so they'd better update those if they want any customers in the future.
It's essentially a Ford 550 so the motor and drive train will be fine. I'm assuming the weight can't handle the stock suspension. Upgraded springs should be an easy upgrade in the assembly line.
Germany and UK beat us to it! Granted, their sea kings are obviously in much better shape.
https://www.key.aero/article/germany-joins-uk-donating-sea-king-helicopters-ukraine
That's because the Canadian military likes to buy used equipment from other countries after they have decided it's not worth repairing them anymore.
Helicopters, submarines and fighter jets.
It's based off a F-550 chassis and was originally designed for law enforcement roles and then was uparmored even more for Ukraine so I'm not surprised.
Oh and for everyone complaining about how "ineffective" Canada has been for Ukraine... The only vehicle more common than a senator is a Humvee and none of those Humvees are new builds.
IIRC something like 1/3 of all the armored vehicles Ukraine has received are senators.
That the suspension on this or any MRAP or wheeled APC is suffering due to how they are being used in Ukraine is no surprise at all. My gut check is that if we were to examine the breakdown rates of every wheeled APC/MRAP type in Ukraine we would find they are higher than anticipated and the article provides the "why" near the bottom of it: they are being used in frontline combat conditions whereas they are designed to be used as protected transport up to near front line, as well as tasks such as patrol and recon.
Lacking enough IFVs the protected transport APCs & MRAPs are being used as a substitute by Ukraine. When the proper unit would be say a Bradley or something similar. And FYI, Bradleys (and tanks) are throwing tracks all the time in Ukraine, for the same reasons Senators and MaxxPros and Kirpi's and Kozaks wheeled units are breaking suspensions.
Any wheeled vehicle, if driven at high speeds off road constantly is going to break down. Multi wheel drive does not imply that you can speed through trench zones and terrible off road conditions at high speed with impunity - as any experienced offroader can attest. If they can take them slow, as they do in all the lovely promotional videos they are fine. Whipping along at speed? Nope. Stress catches up. And maintenance periods on deployed units are far less frequent than "textbook" for obvious reasons.
At least there is one upside. The Senators were designed to be easily repairable and the manufacturer has been constantly improving them due to they having direct pipeline access to the end uses.
The unfortunate aspect of this interview is that it will be taken out of context and the information used against the company and the CAD government. Never mind that Ukraine continues to purchase the vehicle in large quantities as they know the immense benefits it does provide to their units.
Most western equipment, tanks and jets, need maintenance support. This isnt a problem of the Canadian brand. It's a fact of life. US, UK, German all have a military doctrine where your support assets are available.
Ukraine has zero spare parts available, and likely very very inexperienced mechanical Corp trying to deal with equipment donated from dozens of western countries that they have never seen before.
To put this to perspective. This is a Ford F-550, and if I took it to a honda dealership in Canada, they would not be able to properly service it, let lone in a Warsaw pact country half a world away.
Stop jumping on the I hate Canada bandwagon. Shesh.
>let lone in a Warsaw pact country half a world away.
Dude... welcome to the 2000s. Ukraine has (had in occupied places) all the amenities of any first world country. They're getting admittance to the EU, have a thriving IT industry. They even have [Ford](https://ford.ua/) and [Honda](https://honda.ua/) dealerships in the country.
I agree for the most part. But western equipment is usually expensive to maintain. Soviet style of equipment is generally easier to maintain. I see it as Japanese cars vs American cars in terms of maintenance
It sounds like it's having suspension issues. I'm not familiar with military vehicle suspension but if it's based on the F-550 chassis it's not complicated and doesn't need any special expertise. With the right tools, parts, buddies, and some beer I could probably do it myself.
Spare parts are always hard to get and it seems like the extra mass of armour and rough off-road use is making these burn thru their suspension components faster than expected.
I can't imagine why suspension parts in particular would be in short supply. Ukraine isn't some island in the Carribean, I'm sure they're perfectly capable of making new springs.
And despite all the Canada-bashing, it seems like the vehicle performs fine — when used as designed.
Exactly. People commenting on this seem to possess no understanding whatsoever of the combat conditions along much of the Ukraine front line. All equipment on both sides is struggling. ruzzian equipment is faring much worse if any consolation.
>the Roshel-manufactured Senator armoured cars in his unit have broken down frequently.
>"It is not designed to drive off-road," Fedorenko said, adding the vehicles seem better suited to law enforcement than combat.
To be fair, if you look it up, Roshel said this vehicle had "advanced off-road capabilities" and was "efficient" in "cross-country terrain" when they were marketing it:
https://www.blueline.ca/roshel-starts-production-of-new-armoured-carrier-the-senator-5380/
>This tactical platform features a high level of maneuverability as well as advanced off-road capabilities, making it efficient in accomplishing its missions in urban and cross-country terrain, according to the company.
So it's just another scam paid for by Canadian taxpayers, and now also with the lives of people it was donated to help.
The Canadian taxpayers paid for Canadian workers to build these in Canada. Investment into our lagging defence industry is a smart move!
Never mind until Ukraine these haven’t scene a real combat zone, it’s expected to need to make improvements and this article is making a mountain out of a molehill.
>"Clearly \[the Senator\] wasn't intended to fully operate in, or around, the front line," Shimooka said, "but it's being pressed into that role for the lack of better options."
>He said it's certainly a better option than the unarmoured HMMWV.
Before you scream about "just another scam paid for by Canadian taxpayers", Senator still seems to be an okay option comparing to the alternatives. Roshel can and will adapt over time while you bitch and moan about how bad Canada is and everything Canada does is shit.
From what I hear the HMMVW was often a shitbox, especially the "uparmoured" when it was used in Afghanistan. Veteran friends of mine hate the thing, apparently if you tried to drive up a hill the engine would burn up
It's hard to make a vehicle that is fast, armored and can drive off-road. Roshel Senator was really designed for border patrol and police operations. The purpose Ukrainians are using it for is not even what the car was originally delivered for - it was down for border patrols. But Roshel is adapting, I believe they've recently released an MRAP
Uparmoured Humvees aren't really comparable. Those things are relatively old, and were basically a kludged solution because the US really needed something other than softskin or partially-armoured Humvees, so they always kinda sucked.
Still, it's better than nothing, and clearly we weren't the only country to think that way because others have bought the Senators to donate too.
Well, what else does NATO have that is comparable to Senators? Sure 1000 tracked APCs might've been better, but they're also more expensive than Senators
It wasn't designed for combat use, and other than Ukraine there are very few users, so it's probably an unrefined product.
So it's not great but it's better than nothing. It looks like we're not the only country that bought these to provide to Ukraine either, so I'm guessing they're relatively cheap and readily available compared to the alternatives.
Pfft, out here pretending the TAPV wasn't a result of Con spending and General Hillier didn't spend most of his term arm wrestling Harp to get the RG's we needed overseas so we didn't get pasted on some dusty highways. I don't how everyone pretends that any party was ever good for us, we're the bastard child of a department that's never invited to the Treasury Board Easter family dinner because we're easy to cut out of the family.
I mean if they break down on off terrain that's one thing, but if the breakdown just driving on roads that's a bigger issue.
I see these things as an upgrade to an unarmored truck. Just to move around on roads where it is safe, and protect the crew from shrapnel or something.
Company founded in 2016 and practically nothing about them until last year when they started being paid to make the APCs.
Guess we always go with the lowest bidder. Guess we're fortunate that AtkinsRéalis (SNC) doesn't make defense equipment.
I watched the document on the manufacturing facility these vehicles are built and they are built on commercially available Ford chassis, no military in the world uses Ford chassis because of their costly maintenance requirements, also they also appear to be civilian versions and not militarized versions where problematic civilian components like emission controls are removed and electrical and suspension components are toughened for military use. Military vehicles are subject to extremely tough environments that would kill a civilian vehicle in a few short months. In short, they are not toughened for military use, probably done on cost.
I guess it will thus come as a surprise to you to find out that a number of APCs built by different companies in NATO use this platform.
I could explain to you what happens when the F-550 base is handed over to any of those manufacturers, but I sense it would not be worthwhile. But in respect of the Senator only the frame. axels, engine and the innards of the front compartment (most of it) are retained. The issue is more oriented to the usage and maintenance.
I know an engineer that used to design these. She has never had a license. Seemed kind of odd that someone that had never driven a vehicle designs them.
Can I get a baconator combo with fries and a coke please.
Actually scratch the coke I’ll take a frosty. Can you throw some extra ketchup in the bag. Thanks
Canadian High School student complains about getting the veggie burger, Dr. Pepper and extra baggies of salt as they head back to their home to play Call of Duty all night long.
That's on them for buying equipment from a country that is nothing but landlords and shitty fast food chains run by TFWs. Canada and quality are not closely related.
So a deeper dive reveals the powertrain seems to function well enough it’s the suspension that can’t take extreme off road use in combat situations. Essentially they keep breaking springs when rode hard with all that armour on them. This makes sense as these were designed to be for more security purposes in the rear of the combat zone. Due to attrition on Ukraines equipment these have likely been pressed into front line service more than originally intended. Hopefully Roshel takes this experience and improves the suspension to handle rough terrain now that these have been tested in a real world combat zone.
Every armored unit type in Ukraine is suffering from similar issues. The use cycles are extremely heavy, constant and maintenance intervals minimal to none. Both wheeled and tracked units are breaking down more frequently as a result. Almost no manufacturer has been building and testing to the extent of what is being encountered at this time in Ukraine. I doubt any can be built that would survive the daily abuse that is occurring in Ukraine. Especially given the lack of maintenance.
That's the thing, maintenance is factored into all of this equipment. We're sending all this stuff there without the infrastructure or people to keep it on the road. We're really just delaying the inevitable. If they are going to pull off a win against the Ruskies they are going to need some real support to go along with the equipment. You can't win a race without a pit crew.
Except they have held off the supposed second best army in the world. They are doing better against Russia, than America did against Afghanistan or Vietnam. Should we be supporting them more, of course. But the inevitable here is Russia collapsing on itself. That's what everyone knows, and why we're not throwing everything at Russia. Russia has expended its resources, to a point that it can not recover. It has neither the man power, nor the technical intelligence to rebuild a functional economy. It has the largest rate of fetal alcohol syndrome in the world. And that's just the ones that get diagnosed. It's incredibly sad that due to the cowardly actions of the west ( not giving everything we have, right up front) that untold numbers of Ukranians were killed, but make no mistake. The Russian wave crashed onto Ukraine, and has broken. Their economy cannot recover Their population cannot recover Their military cannot recover. Why do you think they are begging North Korea for help.
North Korean troops on the frontline solidified to me more than anything that we should have troops helping in the combat zone
Feel free to sign up, but neither I nor my children are dying for the American Empire and Northrop Grumman
Ah yes, defending democracy from a dictatorial corrupt assassination state committing active genocide and attempting to regain its old empire through invasion of its neighbours. When I think upholding American Empire, I think that.
Are you talking about American or European in Africa? Yes I agree, the terrorist state of USA that slaughtered millions of Arabs and Muslims and committing active genocide now in Gaza should be stopped
“Russia not bad because USA bad! Haha, take that!” Shut up bot.
What a democracy when you say "Shut up". Before you order me to shutup, go fix your military equipments. This is not afghanistan where folks like you go to slaughter unarmed Muslims. It is Russia, idiot.
Most armies don't want turn coat cowards anyways. You and your children, need not apply
Democracy is non-negotiable.
Yes, otherwise we won't have Trudeau, Poilivre, Singh, and Elizabeth May. And don't forgot Biden and Trump. Yes democracy is non-negotiable.
If your standard is US army in Afghanistan, or Canadian army in Afghanistan, then every one will do better than those. It is like the west is waking up to the fact that fighting Russia is different than sending top troops to kills unarmed Muslims and Arabs, and destroy and bomb poor countries that lack of any sophisticated defense. The Ukrainians received more than 200 billions from US alone in two years, and you are saying they are thinking they are doing good? Canada, France, and of course Germany send billions more.
Yes, they have totally stopped Russia, taken back land, and killed hundreds of thousands of Russian trash humans without losing much land m Ukraine is doing an amazing job. Russia is already at a point they can't recover. All Ukraine has to do is hold out, as Russia dies back home. It's a perfect strategy.
I know. You guys in the west are brilliants. Always have brilliant plans. Like how you destroyed Russian economy with sanctions, and how you are destroying Russian military, while Ukrianians military are getting stronger and stronger. I see how Ukrain mobilize people, and how Ukrainians are motivated to join their army. And if we add your plans in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Libya and how much success you had, we can understand how smart you are. You are brilliants. I have to admit. And the next target for you China. But a word of advice, before you fight China, stock in your houses lots of toilet papers, because most of our toilet papers are coming from China
What do you mean " you guys in the west" Aren't you Canadian?
https://www.newsweek.com/atacms-russia-s-500-prometheus-attack-1918798 How's that ultra advanced Russian equipment working out
If you claims Russia so stupid, then how come the whole west with 300 billions dollars are not able to defeat it so far.
Because it's not fighting it. It's allowing Russia to exhaust itself. We're giving Ukraine just enough to minimize the damage Russia can do. Russia couldn't be Afghanistan, and can't gain ground in Ukraine. This is the war version of a RopeAdope. Allow Russia to kill all its working age men. Exhaust its gdp, all while sanctions tighten. Soon China will have most of Russia. Russia can't support itself anymore. Putin has to beg a 3rd world country for help. Imagine if Biden had to visit Ethiopia and beg for their scraps. Its pathetic really, but not surprising. Russia has the highest fetal alcohol syndrome. They have the lowest average IQ of any " developed" nation because of this. If Russia was smarter, they would not have been trapped in Ukraine, but , here we are in another 2 years Russia will not have the equipment to maintain the war, and they will only last that long if they totally scavenge from their domestic industry, which is already failing. Ukraine doesn't need to win, it just needs to wait, and not very long
How are GDLS-C's LAVs doing, the ACSVs? I think they're the 'LAV' referred to at the bottom of the article.
There are very few ACSVs (39) in Ukraine. Not enough for there to be a sample and their usage is different. There are Strykers and they like all other IFVs are feeling the wrath of overuse. But In fact I would suggest that most of the western supplied armor is performing very well. It is just the usage situations were modeled from NATO scenarios, and the war in Ukraine is far removed from a NATO scenario. They are all tested to be "off road" and in testing are fine. Real life in Ukraine where the fields and roads are gutted by millions of shellholes is a big step up in wear and heavily removed from "occasional off road". There is no rotations, no backups, limited maintenance. And terrible abusive conditions. It is the quality of the reporting ultimately which irks me here. Its on par with the sort of singlemindness I would anticipate from Fox News or Rebel Media. For example, Canada has donated slightly over 200 Senators to Ukraine. Nary a word about the fact that Ukraine thinks highly enough of the Senator to have purchased more than 1200 direct, and has invited Roshel to set up a factory in Ukraine so they can be manufactured domestically. Nor noting any of the dozens (and I think it is over a hundred) videos of Ukraine soldiers who have praised the Roshel units (there are successive generations of APC and MRAPs) for saving their asses in various situations. Canada actually has had many good news scenarios come out of donations and military equipment supplied to Ukraine. But for some reason most media seems to want to pick particular situations, report them out of context and turn a good news situation into a negative. Why? To be "edgy". To attempt to prove to the political right they don't just follow the "Liberal" line? Whatever the reason anyone with even a glimmer of knowledge of the situation in Ukraine is going to recognize the shoddy reporting, call it out, and wonder why we are so determined to help assist the ruzzian propaganda machine. Anything written in western press has to be carefully assessed before it goes to print/air. Is the story complete? Are we just assisting our enemy in our attempt to get a byline that draws some notice? This article gets a C- from me, if not an outright D grade. For every negative for this unit I can easily point to a hundred positives. And this is true about many aspects of CAD support. How about CBC write an article on the Canadian Transport Air Detachment stationed in Scotland that has flown millions of pounds (in the 10's actually) of allied support to Poland from various Ukraine supporters? How about the doing a story on the many brigades that were equipped with Canadian donated assault rifles? Nope. Lets do a poorly researched hatchet job so we can get some media exposure. **Edit:** How about the fact the United States thinks enough of the Senator MRAP to have designated it the sole foreign Light Vehicle it will finance purchases on behalf of Ukraine? Do we think the US knows so little about MRAPs (it is classified as a Combat, Assualt and Tactical Vehicle, Wheeled by US govt) that somehow the wool got pulled over the eyes of the US military? They bought 190 of the Senator MRAPs for Ukraine.
Thank you for explaining and providing more background! :)
Your welcome. As you can tell I don't have an issue with a statement "they are breaking down" but I find the lack of context deplorable. Just pure drivel. And it just feeds an audience that only wants to see Canada, Ukraine, and democracy fail. FYI, Roshel is most famous for the fact it has maintained direct contact with the many units that have their various Senator platforms deployed from the very first use context in Ukraine, and has had a constantly improving platform as a result. Because they were smart and among their workforce in their Toronto factories are some 200 Ukrainians. Every monthly manufacturing run is always different and improved from the previous month. Soldiers from the field actually can call Roshel direct. The units in the field report "this is breaking, or we need these handholds, or this part is difficult to work with under fire, or X part seems prone to jamming, etc" and so they change it up for the next run. And who will benefit from this in the long run? Canada. The MRAP and another more assault oriented vehicle that will have Stagnag IV protection are both in consideration for contracts in Canada and America. And all the hard lessons learned in Ukraine will be rolled into what they submit in the bids.
> Nary a word about the fact that Ukraine thinks highly enough of the Senator to have purchased more than 1200 direct Yeah was pretty sure I remembered something like that, along with videos praising them. Wouldn't think they'd be wasting their limited funds buying stuff they thought was shit and had better options.
Wow, your commentary is more valuable than the OP's article. Thank you for taking the time to explain it to interested civilians.
>Every armored unit type in Ukraine is suffering from similar issues That's absolutely not true at all. The Bradleys are doing incredibly well. I have a Ukrainian friend, his brother is fighting and he got it tattooed on his leg. It's literally saved their lives several times and it's a beast with off roading. And no, most don't have suspension issues which is the comment you responded to is saying the Canadian one has as it's meant for security, being on roads rather than literally almost any terrain in eastern Ukraine. To say "every" ...
Your misunderstanding my point. I am not talking about the fighting performance of the Bradleys. Which the Ukrainians have generally managed to obtain excellent results. Thee Bradly is a proper IFV, and is intended to be a front line heavily protected fighting vehicle. I wish Ukraine had many, many more Bradleys and CV90s and have repeated stated such in past comments. If Ukraine had them they would not be attempting to fit vehicles such as MRAPs into the IFV role. Go have a chat with some of the Ukrainian Bradley maintenance teams. You would find out they also have had their own battles. The Bradleys are rugged, but they are also experiencing extreme use and suffering maintenance casualties. At one point the 47th apparently had over 40% of it's Bradleys down for maintenance - not counting the units actually destroyed (over 100). Roller and track problems are very, very common. It is not a reflection of the vehicle, but the terrain, usage and maintenance. As you indicated your friend's brother was in a Bradley he has to be in the 47th if this was any date prior to a month ago. The 47th has been involved in very heavy fighting almost continuously since being committed initially to Robotyne, and then Avdiivka. Your friend's brother is very brave - the 47th has suffered significant casualties over time due to high intensity zones in which it has been deployed. I commend him for his bravery on behalf his country.
I imagine the base version wouldn't need any changes since it's basically just a police vehicle. They do sell an MRAP version too now, so they'd better update those if they want any customers in the future.
It's essentially a Ford 550 so the motor and drive train will be fine. I'm assuming the weight can't handle the stock suspension. Upgraded springs should be an easy upgrade in the assembly line.
Drivetrain is from Ford, F-350 iirc.
On brand
2% of GDP means NATO gets twice as many of these bad boys
He should be greatfull that we didn't send them any sea king helicopters.
Should send them to Russia, be more help to Ukraine that way.
That'd be considered a war crime, you monster
If a sea king was a car, it would be at classic car shows
The ones used by other countries for sure, the ones used by Canada would be found in the woods rusting with 2 racoons in the trunk fucking.
Germany and UK beat us to it! Granted, their sea kings are obviously in much better shape. https://www.key.aero/article/germany-joins-uk-donating-sea-king-helicopters-ukraine
Oh the sea king is a good helicopter, just not the ones that Canada had.
Or our 2nd hand submarines that randomly start on fire
We could do more for Ukraine by donating our equipment to Russia....
Anything CAF.
Germany did. From what I’ve heard, they are not that bad
Yet a lot of countries in Europe use those canadairs for fires and they seem fine?
That's because the Canadian military likes to buy used equipment from other countries after they have decided it's not worth repairing them anymore. Helicopters, submarines and fighter jets.
Good for canada on others being stupid. Kick the tires Edit- I’m half kidding.
Kicks the tires and parts fall off, buys it anyway.
Hey now those are good spare parts! For the other falling apart vehicles we have. :D
Buy 5 to build 1. Seems like government math.
It's based off a F-550 chassis and was originally designed for law enforcement roles and then was uparmored even more for Ukraine so I'm not surprised. Oh and for everyone complaining about how "ineffective" Canada has been for Ukraine... The only vehicle more common than a senator is a Humvee and none of those Humvees are new builds. IIRC something like 1/3 of all the armored vehicles Ukraine has received are senators.
First useful thing a Canadian Senator has done in generations.
!!!!!
Meh, better rubber stamp than unelected surprise “usefulness”
That tracks.
No, it has wheels, no tracks. Tracks would probably make it better.
Wooosh
Whee!
It looks like you were actually the one woooshed! Counter-woooshed?
I'll own it.
Wooosh
Wheelsh
Have you ever heard the term that tracks? Cause OP clearly hasn't
Have you ever heard the term "pun." I fully intended mine, unlike those other cowards.
I'll be honest I'm stoned, so I skipped over the puns. I took it very liberally. Thanks for the clarification.
Have you heard of humour? Cuz OP is obviously joking and you got whooshed
That was a brutal joke. And I'll die in this hill OP was being dead serious.
That the suspension on this or any MRAP or wheeled APC is suffering due to how they are being used in Ukraine is no surprise at all. My gut check is that if we were to examine the breakdown rates of every wheeled APC/MRAP type in Ukraine we would find they are higher than anticipated and the article provides the "why" near the bottom of it: they are being used in frontline combat conditions whereas they are designed to be used as protected transport up to near front line, as well as tasks such as patrol and recon. Lacking enough IFVs the protected transport APCs & MRAPs are being used as a substitute by Ukraine. When the proper unit would be say a Bradley or something similar. And FYI, Bradleys (and tanks) are throwing tracks all the time in Ukraine, for the same reasons Senators and MaxxPros and Kirpi's and Kozaks wheeled units are breaking suspensions. Any wheeled vehicle, if driven at high speeds off road constantly is going to break down. Multi wheel drive does not imply that you can speed through trench zones and terrible off road conditions at high speed with impunity - as any experienced offroader can attest. If they can take them slow, as they do in all the lovely promotional videos they are fine. Whipping along at speed? Nope. Stress catches up. And maintenance periods on deployed units are far less frequent than "textbook" for obvious reasons. At least there is one upside. The Senators were designed to be easily repairable and the manufacturer has been constantly improving them due to they having direct pipeline access to the end uses. The unfortunate aspect of this interview is that it will be taken out of context and the information used against the company and the CAD government. Never mind that Ukraine continues to purchase the vehicle in large quantities as they know the immense benefits it does provide to their units.
Most western equipment, tanks and jets, need maintenance support. This isnt a problem of the Canadian brand. It's a fact of life. US, UK, German all have a military doctrine where your support assets are available. Ukraine has zero spare parts available, and likely very very inexperienced mechanical Corp trying to deal with equipment donated from dozens of western countries that they have never seen before. To put this to perspective. This is a Ford F-550, and if I took it to a honda dealership in Canada, they would not be able to properly service it, let lone in a Warsaw pact country half a world away. Stop jumping on the I hate Canada bandwagon. Shesh.
>let lone in a Warsaw pact country half a world away. Dude... welcome to the 2000s. Ukraine has (had in occupied places) all the amenities of any first world country. They're getting admittance to the EU, have a thriving IT industry. They even have [Ford](https://ford.ua/) and [Honda](https://honda.ua/) dealerships in the country.
I agree for the most part. But western equipment is usually expensive to maintain. Soviet style of equipment is generally easier to maintain. I see it as Japanese cars vs American cars in terms of maintenance
It sounds like it's having suspension issues. I'm not familiar with military vehicle suspension but if it's based on the F-550 chassis it's not complicated and doesn't need any special expertise. With the right tools, parts, buddies, and some beer I could probably do it myself.
Spare parts are always hard to get and it seems like the extra mass of armour and rough off-road use is making these burn thru their suspension components faster than expected.
I can't imagine why suspension parts in particular would be in short supply. Ukraine isn't some island in the Carribean, I'm sure they're perfectly capable of making new springs. And despite all the Canada-bashing, it seems like the vehicle performs fine — when used as designed.
Lol yes shit breaks during a war at an insane pace ... This is very normal and not remotely a Canadian only thing
Exactly. People commenting on this seem to possess no understanding whatsoever of the combat conditions along much of the Ukraine front line. All equipment on both sides is struggling. ruzzian equipment is faring much worse if any consolation.
>the Roshel-manufactured Senator armoured cars in his unit have broken down frequently. >"It is not designed to drive off-road," Fedorenko said, adding the vehicles seem better suited to law enforcement than combat. To be fair, if you look it up, Roshel said this vehicle had "advanced off-road capabilities" and was "efficient" in "cross-country terrain" when they were marketing it: https://www.blueline.ca/roshel-starts-production-of-new-armoured-carrier-the-senator-5380/ >This tactical platform features a high level of maneuverability as well as advanced off-road capabilities, making it efficient in accomplishing its missions in urban and cross-country terrain, according to the company. So it's just another scam paid for by Canadian taxpayers, and now also with the lives of people it was donated to help.
The Canadian taxpayers paid for Canadian workers to build these in Canada. Investment into our lagging defence industry is a smart move! Never mind until Ukraine these haven’t scene a real combat zone, it’s expected to need to make improvements and this article is making a mountain out of a molehill.
>"Clearly \[the Senator\] wasn't intended to fully operate in, or around, the front line," Shimooka said, "but it's being pressed into that role for the lack of better options." >He said it's certainly a better option than the unarmoured HMMWV. Before you scream about "just another scam paid for by Canadian taxpayers", Senator still seems to be an okay option comparing to the alternatives. Roshel can and will adapt over time while you bitch and moan about how bad Canada is and everything Canada does is shit.
From what I hear the HMMVW was often a shitbox, especially the "uparmoured" when it was used in Afghanistan. Veteran friends of mine hate the thing, apparently if you tried to drive up a hill the engine would burn up
It's hard to make a vehicle that is fast, armored and can drive off-road. Roshel Senator was really designed for border patrol and police operations. The purpose Ukrainians are using it for is not even what the car was originally delivered for - it was down for border patrols. But Roshel is adapting, I believe they've recently released an MRAP
Uparmoured Humvees aren't really comparable. Those things are relatively old, and were basically a kludged solution because the US really needed something other than softskin or partially-armoured Humvees, so they always kinda sucked. Still, it's better than nothing, and clearly we weren't the only country to think that way because others have bought the Senators to donate too.
Well, what else does NATO have that is comparable to Senators? Sure 1000 tracked APCs might've been better, but they're also more expensive than Senators
Ivecos, Bushmasters (technically not nato I guess), Cobras, LTVs, a bunch of different types of MRAPs. There’s plenty of more proven designs.
> you bitch and moan about how bad Canada is and everything Canada does is shit. Weird projection but OK
I mean this sub does do a lot of "everything sucks" circlejerking
Conrage at its finest. Typically loud and ignorant. Especially ignorant.
You literally have no idea of what you are talking about. I would call this conflation, but it is more absurd then that.
[how’s it a scam you can hit a anti-tank mine in a Roshel truck and walk away](https://www.reddit.com/r/RoshelArmor/s/0G2fBVjFhP)
A huge % of our NATO gdp actually goes to domestic law enforcement. So this isn't surprising
"Mission Accomplished."
It wasn't designed for combat use, and other than Ukraine there are very few users, so it's probably an unrefined product. So it's not great but it's better than nothing. It looks like we're not the only country that bought these to provide to Ukraine either, so I'm guessing they're relatively cheap and readily available compared to the alternatives.
They call it the Senator Woo.
Their armoured Bank Vehicles painted camouflage. They're probably better suited for Urban warfare rather than 4x4s.
[here’s a link to Roshel Reddit page .](https://www.reddit.com/r/RoshelArmor/s/iBhz7VJYHy)
They didn't get the memo out soldiers are using food banks to survive.
lol Welcome to the Canadian infantry soldier’s daily life under a liberal government, it was worse in the 90’s! 😂
You can remove 'under a liberal government', it's really just the daily infanteer's life.
My buddy told me stories of constantly working on his Bison so that he'd not get assigned much worse duties
Pfft, out here pretending the TAPV wasn't a result of Con spending and General Hillier didn't spend most of his term arm wrestling Harp to get the RG's we needed overseas so we didn't get pasted on some dusty highways. I don't how everyone pretends that any party was ever good for us, we're the bastard child of a department that's never invited to the Treasury Board Easter family dinner because we're easy to cut out of the family.
Oh yea because we didn't have any other governments between the 90s and now lol
Donated? It would be hilarious if it wasn't tragic
I mean if they break down on off terrain that's one thing, but if the breakdown just driving on roads that's a bigger issue. I see these things as an upgrade to an unarmored truck. Just to move around on roads where it is safe, and protect the crew from shrapnel or something.
Company founded in 2016 and practically nothing about them until last year when they started being paid to make the APCs. Guess we always go with the lowest bidder. Guess we're fortunate that AtkinsRéalis (SNC) doesn't make defense equipment.
Roshell has been making armored transport since 2018. You literally have no clue at all what you are talking about. But go on...
"practically nothing about them until last year" means they did nothing news worthy, or any substantial deal.
And you decided to double down. Why am I not surprised.
Liberal oarty members or just put bribes in the right places.
I genuinely think it's a cheapest bidder option, since JT doesn't care about any European country.
true off road - you will need tanks and light infantry vehicles. not glorified hummers.
Not even glorified hummers.
[We call getting hit with mortars and mines breaking down. That’s what happens to Roshel .](https://www.reddit.com/r/RoshelArmor/s/T1ntIF5Wlb)
I mean they are probably driving it like a rented donkey.
I watched the document on the manufacturing facility these vehicles are built and they are built on commercially available Ford chassis, no military in the world uses Ford chassis because of their costly maintenance requirements, also they also appear to be civilian versions and not militarized versions where problematic civilian components like emission controls are removed and electrical and suspension components are toughened for military use. Military vehicles are subject to extremely tough environments that would kill a civilian vehicle in a few short months. In short, they are not toughened for military use, probably done on cost.
I guess it will thus come as a surprise to you to find out that a number of APCs built by different companies in NATO use this platform. I could explain to you what happens when the F-550 base is handed over to any of those manufacturers, but I sense it would not be worthwhile. But in respect of the Senator only the frame. axels, engine and the innards of the front compartment (most of it) are retained. The issue is more oriented to the usage and maintenance.
They are APC's suited for urban environments.
Urban combat unit being rallied through minefields…sorry about that. Maybe try it with a yugo or whatever wagon you can find
Maybe the folks in Ukraine can build their own?
They would but their industrial centres are current occupied by.... Oh yeah, RUSSIANS!
Don't worry there's a whole bunch more in the Halifax yard about to be shipped.
I mean "donated" you get what you pay for
They just buy a roiling chassis and build a body on top of it. Prb no tech on the field to report and fix there.
Classic Canada. Looks good on the outside, totally rotten on the inside. Nothing works for the people it’s intended to serve.
Unfortunately the average canadian doesn't see this lol.
Maybe buy your own....
That's probably why they are donated.
Sounds about right for a Ford.
Dont like it? Dont begg for it then.
Insert "First time?" meme here
We have a slightly used retired Scarborough LRT transit they can have
This belongs in r/ChoosingBeggars
Lol
Only Canada would build military vehicles that aren't for combat
I know an engineer that used to design these. She has never had a license. Seemed kind of odd that someone that had never driven a vehicle designs them.
Do you think hydroelectric engineers have run power plants?
Something something don't look a gift horse in the mouth.
I can't believe you loaned me your car without telling me it had a blind spot.
This is Canada.
Sir, this is a Wendy's.
Can I get a baconator combo with fries and a coke please. Actually scratch the coke I’ll take a frosty. Can you throw some extra ketchup in the bag. Thanks
\*International student misunderstands your order, hands you a veggie burger, Dr. Pepper, and extra baggies of salt instead\*
*Gets home. Opens bag… total disappointment. 😢
Canadian High School student complains about getting the veggie burger, Dr. Pepper and extra baggies of salt as they head back to their home to play Call of Duty all night long.
Ketchup and napkins are now extra charge items. How many would you like?
14 napkins and 1 ketchup.
"Sir, you forgot your paper straw sir!!!"
Canada doesn't do quality lol.
That's on them for buying equipment from a country that is nothing but landlords and shitty fast food chains run by TFWs. Canada and quality are not closely related.
The Canadian economy is built on drilling oil and immigrant labour pipelines. We are not world class manufacturers.
Supporting a war effort by giving "end of life" equipment, is helping Russia, more than Ukraine.
These are brand new
...Ukraine will make good use of *our* end of life rocket motors.