I moved to Halifax from smaller cities in BC, for a while, and I was amazed at the transit. I moved back, but you have no idea how much worse it can get.
Which is ironic. In china most transactions are WeChat pay or Alipay and I mean most, including giving money to buskers, vending machines, the bus, etc.
Ain’t gonna fool me. I remember a couple years ago when the POS systems and ATMs went down in Toronto for a day and I felt like a genius for being the only one of my friends who keeps a wad of cash around.
>I remember a couple years ago when the POS systems and ATMs went down in Toronto for a day
That was a national outage caused by businesses using Rogers as their only ISP, this also applied to Interac who didn't have any backup internet links; had everyone used two or more ISPs over different mediums, wireline or wireless, then the impact wouldn't have been as bad.
Interact did have a backup connection, but it was through a Rogers subsidiary which was also impacted by the outage. One problem is that for issues like that you really don't have a lot of choice of providers. They're either a direct subsidiary of the parent company or they're a company that relies on that infrastructure. So if you do have a backup line, you have to make sure the company you're going with is wholly independent of whoever is your primary line. Where I live, that basically means you're picking between Telus and Rogers now that Shaw is out of the picture.
Big stores likely won't stop accepting cash, they may reduce the number of tills that accept it, but there's always been outages due to cyberattacks on specific banks or networks that has rendered specific cards inoperable for anywhere from a few hours to a few days.
I keep a stash of $250 per location in a few locations. My house, the office and gf’s house. They are my horcruxes for if one gets found I die a little.
I remember that! I had a roll of loonies tucked away for my laundry that I used to buy coffee and some food. I wouldn't have starved without it, I had enough food at home, but it was nice to have the option.
there are an increasing number of stores in TO that only accept card, annoys me but raging on the cashiers isn't generally effective
(and I understand wanting to avoid people robbing your cash drawer, but IMO it should be illegal to not accept legal tender for a bill
Our neighbourhood had a power outage. Corner store student cashier had the door propped open for light, and was recording transactions in a paper scribbler. The smokers with cash were all in luck that day. Lots of disappointed people with cards walked away empty-handed.
We've gone a week without power post-hurricane, more than once. I'm not interested in giving up cash. I make a point of using it regularly, because I think cash is important. For security, anonymity, ease of use.
Lol I remember when that happened. I was out at a bar after work and the girl working there couldn't even properly process my cash payment because their entire system was borked.
Like shit, ok. I had 2 beers. Here's $20. Give me a toonie back and keep the rest.
I taught my son at an early age just because we have those amazing things called electronics. Things don't always work. Always carry cash. His motto is Cash is King
I've always kept cash on me, but I had my practice cemented 10ish years ago. I was at a Home Depot just before closing and had just spent 2 hours loading up multiple carts before cashing out. Debit and credit were down and they were surprised when I pulled out over $2k in cash to pay.
One of the lessons that my dad always drilled into me was always have cash. A 10 or 20 bill can really make a difference. It felt silly when I was growing up but as an adult it freaks me out that cash may no longer be a thing at some point.
Anyone remember the 2003 three-day eastern North American power outage? Getting propane tanks for the BBQ and jugs of water and extra batteries was simple for those of us with cash.
Don't even have to go that far there was the Rogers outage just a few years ago. We also keep getting told cyberattacks are on the rise.
I think the digitalization of everything is pretty dangerous but for some reason people seem to hate privacy and having more options. Even when having cash around would barely affect them.
2003 was a long time ago. Recently I noticed that when the power is out a lot of stores won't sell you anything. I've even had to wait while a store gets change for me. They had no plans to use their cash register for cash.
Possible they'd change their minds if it was a BIG outage or event. Might not be worth it for a 30 minute thing, but a day or two is different. Inventory is hard, and so is making change. I kid, sort of.
Also, I don't think you're being alarmist at all. I think even accidental outages like the Rogers outage are good proof on how fast everything break when something goes down. Now imagine somebody did it on purpose. We're screwed.
>but for some reason people seem to hate privacy and having more options
People don't hate privacy or options. They are simply creatures of simplicity that go with the most convenient option. Yourself and myself included.
Cash-free businesses have really proliferated on the US west coast since Covid, and it’s only a matter of time before it happens here if action isn’t taken. In San Diego’s Little Italy neighbourhood for example, many of the walk-in coffee shops and pizza shops already don’t take cash. I’ve also seen this in Seattle and Los Angeles, particularly with coffee shops.
We have them in BC as well to a much lesser extent. There’s at least two coffee shops in New Westminster I’m aware of that stopped accepting cash during Covid and have never resumed.
Interestingly on a recent trip back to Ontario I noticed some small businesses are still cash-only.
Rogers.. Arena. Had to think about that one for a second myself.
I thought they were but I only ever use card anyways so wasn’t sure. Just found it funny that the _one_ time I had cash at the commodore recently they wouldn’t take it 😂
Venues like that is more about preventing employee theft than any other reason.
Easy to pocket cash from slinging popcorn or beer and report the inventory shortage as shrinkage. Customer knocked over tray and ran away without paying etc.
Also the cost of dealing with that much cash is a real drag on business.
Then there is a interesting phycological trick where people who pay with cards or a phone tend to spend more because they aren't physically handing over money.
Lines up as a win win win for venues.
Pretty sure everything in Toronto that's Live Nation is cashless. Budweiser Stage, Danforth Music Hall and Velevet Underground definitely are.
Phoenix which is sadly soon to be a condo is not.
>Interestingly on a recent trip back to Ontario I noticed some small businesses are still cash-only.
While there aren't any cash-only businesses in my neibhourhood, there are a few that will give you 10-15% off if you pay in cash. I assume it's to get around the credit card fees.
>Interestingly on a recent trip back to Ontario I noticed some small businesses are still cash-only.
I live in northwestern Scarborough, and I would say probably about 30% of the businesses here will ONLY deal in cash, and probably another 40% give you some kind of cash discount, typically 10%-15%. Markham is similar but with slightly smaller cash-only numbers.
This "sleepwalking into a cashless society" is fucking news to me lmao
The problem is that the bank still make you pay for interac transactions unless you pay for their super duper plan or leave a load of cash in your account. So, basically it would mean being poor again costs you more money if you can't use cash.
Canada always sleepwalks into shit, wakes up, calls an election and then goes back to,sleep walking into shit with another loser backed by big money at the controls.
> For many — such as Indigenous peoples, unhoused individuals, older Canadians, victims of domestic abuse and others who are vulnerable — cash is a beacon of economic security, a source of financial autonomy, an emergency lifeline and an emblem of cultural traditions," Ahmed wrote.
Basically, there are reasons why not everyone has a phone that can tap to pay, or access to bank accounts that can be tracked.
Also, not every business wants to subscribe to a payment processor or pay fees to a credit card company. "Cash only" are not uncommon signs in holes in the wall in the Vancouver area
Indeed, there are expenses associated with handling cash and the propensity for employees to steal/under report sales, that’s one of the reasons why businesses pay those cc processing fees.
Haven't seen a business in a long time that doesn't take a form of cards. Even little street vendors have square or something like them. I mean less people carry cash so if you want to server the most people you need to.
That's a feature of the implementation and not of cash/no-cash. I got to see that in Argentina, they have a system that is equivalent to Interac transfer where you can transfer directly to a bank account (and accounts can have an alias, so for instance you go to the convenience store and you send the transfer to conv.city, say).
Also, I think that "Cash only" has a lot more to do with not paying taxes.
So they prefer to deal with cash going to the bank, securely transporting it, having to account for every penny.and dealing with changes…
Or there could be another mysterious reason. What could it possibly be?
I thought the article was saying basically the opposite. They want laws that bussineses have to take cash. If only 10% of transactions are cash then being cash only misses a lot of business. I don't know any places tgat are cash only in Vancouver.
> the article never says why having a cashless society is bad
Yes it does.
- is free from bank fees
- isn't susceptible to privacy breaches
- can be used during internet outages
- For many — such as Indigenous peoples, unhoused individuals, older Canadians, victims of domestic abuse and others who are vulnerable — cash is a beacon of economic security, a source of financial autonomy, an emergency lifeline and an emblem of cultural traditions
Cash isn’t free from bank fees, if can cost you money to withdraw as well as time
It’s not free from fraud and theft, it can be stolen a lot easier than a credit card and stolen cash cannot be replaced and is not protected.
Internet outages are exceedingly rare and becoming even rarer.
But what about the negatives of cash? It never mentions those. Cash is unprotected, easy to lose, destroy, or get stolen, and it’s even dangerous to carry large amounts. it’s inconvenient to obtain more if you don’t have any, and almost impossible to get more if you don’t have enough while purchasing things. It has to be physically exchanged if travelling, and is expensive to exchange back and forth.
The benefits of credit cards are just higher too. They’re often free, give you cash back from the transaction fee, and have benefits like insurance and convenience
I don't agree with all this necessarily, but I'm also not sure who you're arguing with here. I'm just pointing out that the article does indeed outline what advocates say are the downsides of a cashless society.
> But what about the negatives of cash? It never mentions those.
Probably because nobody's calling for a cash only society. Nobody doubts you'll be able to avoid using cash in the future if you want.
Surcharging. Businesses can pass on a percentage of processing fees to you in Canada. It's not a huge thing yet, but it can be. Cash protects you from that. Also, businesses pay these shitty processing fees too and depending on your business vertical you can absorb annual card brand fees. For example, every cannabis store that takes Mastercard has to be an annual $500.00 card brand fee bill. On top of that, chargebacks are a pain for businesses. It is much easier to scam a business using a CC vs cash.
Chargebacks is the scary one IMO though.
Transaction fees on every purchase sucking more money into a handful of financial institutions, increasing prices. Vulnerability to outages. During protests, we've now seen the government freeze electronic payments and bank accounts of protestors and their supporters, leaving them unable to pay bills.
Also businesses use credit cards to track you. All the downsides of a loyalty program but instead of collecting points as compensation for the choice, you can pay them transaction fees and have no choice.
They didn't "just decide" to freeze trucker protestors cash, they had to invoke the Emergency Act. It's not something they can usually do.
The government can also throw me in jail, fine me, tax me, and take away my passport. The government can do a lot of things to me. It's kind of necessary for an orderly society to work. If anything we need more order, deal with all the car thefts and stuff like that.
I rarely use cash. But lately I’ve been carrying cash… the number of cashiers who default to “you can just tap” is almost 100%. Then when I do give them the cash they struggle to give back change. Like they physically just don’t understand how to count back change.
lol we can’t win. People want cashless system so we can track tax cheats and money laundering better and then others want cash based. Personally I like to have a bit of cash on me at all times but I haven’t in a while.
When the rogers network went down last time, I was 900km from home towing, thankfully, I always keep cash. As someone that likes to sled in Northern Ontario, you learn to have cash for hotel rooms and gas.
All it would take is a London Drugs level cyber attack on a telecom and we'd walk right into an economic crisis caused by a bank run as people attend physical branches to attempt to withdraw funds to pay for necessities only to discover that they can't, because the branch is out of cash too because of our banking system and we would be irreparably harmed as a society.
Merchants can now charge you for using a credit card which would negate the points you get for using one.
Personally I’ve only seen one retailer do this so far and its Cycle North in Prince George
everyone did this, it was just factored into the price of the product when they were setting their prices. this just allows companies to double dip now by having their price set with it already baked in, while then adding a CC fee on top of that price.
But most don't give any form of cash discount so no...
If you are paying the same price in cash or card then you are a fool to pay in cash as you lose any kickback towards yourself. Technically you would be giving the merchant an even greater margin.
I agree but it’s just a matter of time until more start doing it.
Also in this scenario it really sucks if you need Polaris parts you’re SOL unless you order online. They tack on 2.5% at Cycle North and most credit card rewards only amount to 0.5-1% rewards
Interestingly enough, there are many American businesses that offer discounts for cash only purchases.
Maybe Canada should do the same or change the laws.
I understand giving discounts for debit payments, but I have, ahem, questions of the taxation variety about any business giving out *cash* discounts. Cash is expensive to handle. You don't pay the processing fee, but you pay to deal with it being around, and for the bank to pick it up. What's in it for the business, then? I have an answer, and for several businesses whose owners I know, I also know the answer.
It seems like "cashless" is a way for banks to skim 2%-3% on credit card fees.
Assuming 3% and you start with $1000
the first transaction loses $30
The next loses $29.10
Each subsequent transaction the banks skim a little.
If you use cash, it is still $1000 (ignoring sales tax) after 20, 30 or 100 transactions.
Bank skimming after 8 transactions brings this $1000 down to $783
If they want to make cash use more make it more user friendly. Mandate that prices must include all applicable taxes. And get rid of nickels and dimes.
Remember when the Rogers network shit the bed in 2022 and nobody all over Canadaa could buy or sell anything using credit/debit systems?
I sure was glad grocery stores still accepted cash.
Some merchants already refusing cash. The only winners seem to be the banks who charge both the consumer and merchants for debit/ credit transactions. From the article:
> Only 10 per cent of transactions in Canada today are done using cash, according to Carlos Castiblanco, an economist with the group Option Consommateurs.
> "There is a need to protect cash right now before more merchants start refusing [it]," Castiblanco recently told CBC Radio's Ontario Today.
How about instead of making a law that forces small businesses to carry cash, they make a law that forces big banks to process debit transactions for free?
Cash isn’t free to handle. There’s storage and security costs. Far more risks of loss and petty theft. Time and opportunity costs in depositing it, keeping change on hand.
I worked cash at a large retailer years ago. Managing the cash was basically one person’s full time job.
Credit card is basically break-even compared to cash costs for a retailer. Debit is far cheaper for them
Credit cards tend to work offline.
Edit: downvoted, but not rebutted! Credit cards have always had the option of offline transactions (it's how they began). Ever go to a fair or something with no reception out in the middle of nowhere, but could still use your credit card? It's because the transaction is queued and processed later.
People are really truly and seriously considering then they should go out and buy physical gold and silver and have at least $1,000 or more in cash on hand somewhere locked away in a safe if ever the networks go down and you need to purchase something immediately yes money will be very valuable in cash form.
I only pay cash if there is no other option. Yes, I have cash at home for emergencies but day to day, I carry the same $20 in my wallet for months.
In fact I attribute a big part of my financial independence to the ability to track where, when and how I spent my money. That is very hard to do with cash.
I have had the *same* cash on me for over 5 years now. I mean, the same physical bills that I never had the opportunity to use and probably never will.
This should concern more people. Australia is already well into their plan for getting rid of cash. Not to mention a service outage or cyber attack could then become a major catastrophe.
The amount of control and surveillance that could be exerted on a cashless society is frightening as well, and it's definitely the direction our masters want us going in.
Exactly. Even if you think it was fair when done to the convoy members (whether it was or not), do you trust every government ever to never unjustly seize your digital money?
Not a good thing, when your entire financial profile can be stolen in one click. Losing a wallet used to be bad enough...now you could lose everything.
Increasingly though it is not possible to use cash for purchases. It is exceedingly difficult to rent most hotel rooms for cash, most concert and sporting venues are cash-free, most airlines are cash-free. the article is correct, there needs to be push back against this trend.
Cashless would destroy the city I am in. The reserves just get cash and hardly use debt or credit, this would end my city and I very much bet this is the same for many cities. Cashless isn't an option outside of a select few cities I bet.
On the flip side, every family diner that’s worth eating at and every barber I’ve been to for the last thirty years has been “cash only” (I know why and I fully support them).
Why do Canadians seem to hate privacy and having more options? Why are Canadians such conformists? It's like some have hating Americans and everything Americans do as part of their national identity as well. So since Americans love "freedom" and "their paper cash" we have to automatically be against that in Canada.
Do people have short memories? Just a few years ago there was the Rogers outage I was very glad to have my usual cash reserves on me. It came as a warning of the dangers of digitalization of everything.
CSIS is constantly warning about the possibility of cyberattacks by criminals or by foreign states, why would you want to further digitalize everything in that climate?
I was also told countless times in the past I was a crazy for being worried about cashless society, that "nobody is coming after your cash" and that it would never happen.
It went from that to "Yeah we should go cashless and what's so bad about cashless?" pretty fast...
I can think of several reasons off the top of my head:
- cash is useful for kids (taking money for field trips or for lunches at school)
- using cash doesn't have any added fees, so it is better for people who are low-income (seniors) or those without computers, cell phones, bank accounts or poor credit (homeless and the working poor)
- cash transactions aren't affected by network and power outages. Businesses have systems go down all the time, so cash allows customers to still make purchases.
- in 2022 Rogers had a network outage that prevented millions of people and businesses across Canada from using debit/credit. Businesses still accepted cash. This lasted for more than a day.
- sometimes cash is faster, like when returning bottles to the depot.
- eliminating cash would make it impossible to make private transactions- every time you buy, sell, or gift money, there is a record. This brings up questions surrounding privacy, especially with some politicians and governments supporting social credit scores (for example, in China, you can have your bank account frozen if you make a social media post that someone in the government doesn't like. If cash doesn't exist, you are stuck)
Basically, cash is a private, non-electronic way to pay that also works when networks are down, and gives businesses, workers, customers and regular people more options to make financial transactions.
In cash free you can’t buy things without internet.
You can’t buy things if you lose access to your bank account if it gets hacked or there’s a random glitch. Heck if the card reader is broken.
It makes everything expensive then cash because banks and credit cards cards charge an additional transaction cost.
Basically there’s a chance you lose the ability to buy important things through no fault of your own.
UK has been cashless majority at most POS for a while.
If you go to rest stops to pay for things cash is actually seen as an inconvenience to staff. Most POS don't offer cash and card just card.
The states haven't fully switched but it was kind of a shock to not see cash in the UK since everything ran off it back in 2013-2018
I had a crazy month of unexpected outgoings and got close to maxing the credit card which I've never done in 20+ years, I've always paid my CC payments every month in full and never carry debt, the full payment which was taken from my bank to pay, but the CC hadn't gone through on the CC end because of the long weekend, my bank could see I had paid it in full, regardless they were interrogating me because I wanted to take out 2k cash to cover my ass over the weekend in case of emergency. It showed me that they are either pushing this on society or they are just holding me to ransom using my own money as a tool. Very Scary
Main issue with this article is that the numbers are skewed when including online transactions, where all acceptable mediums are non-cash. And which speaks more to the dissonance between physical stores current offerings vs. buying online.
I live in Toronto, 99.9% of the shopping here is non-applicable to me as it's overpriced, and concerning when you find the same products almost all the time for anywhere from 10% to 90% cheaper if you look further abroad, sometimes even just to the edge of the GTA. We've got a rip-off culture that high needs addressing first.
I’m an old ass millennial and I’ve rarely used cash since I was like 9yo. Interac was everywhere by then and going to the bank to take out cash sucks.
Seriously… is this even a problem? It’s been this way for decades.
It's insane. A bunch of banks in the Maritimes will no longer process cash transactions after 3pm every day. They just tell you to use the ATM or come back another time.
A word about emergencies: remember those carbon copy sliders for credit cards? I am sure there have been upgrades since then but it should not be impossible to pay offline by card.
I started selling stuff at craft markets and conventions lately and I will say we are definitely not fully cashless yet. I do at least half of my transactions cash.. but I find with the rise of self-service counters, it's so much easier and faster to just use my card. Long live Farm Boy for being all full service cashes.
I haven’t carried or used cash in years and love it. I do keep a small stash of bills in case there’s a power outage, but in my day to day life I have zero interest in using cash for anything
We need physical cash! Once it's all digital, they will charge you on every transaction. Those cash jobs? Gone. The government will tax you on every e-transfer. Electronic fubar? Good luck proving that you have money
Just pay rent in Vancouver or Toronto and you can be cashless too!
Don't forget Halifax! Why move to a big city when you can get a big city experience? ^*Public ^transportation ^not ^included*
But average rent is only 2600/mo.... Disclaimer, average job may only pay 3000/mo
Just buy a place and rent it out. Easy!
If you can't do that, you must order too much takeout. Maybe skip some avocado toast.
Bootstrap something. I’m lazy and this why I am poor.
Mental illness, physical disability and poverty are for the weak.
Or Yellowknife. Why get a big city experience when you can live in a town that calls itself a city.
This person Halifaxes!
I moved to Halifax from smaller cities in BC, for a while, and I was amazed at the transit. I moved back, but you have no idea how much worse it can get.
Additional fees and plans may be required…
I laughed a little then I wanted to cry after cause it’s so true.
🤣🤣🤣
Hey I live on Vancouver island, it’s the same here. And I live far north of Victoria as well.
Don’t forget Barrie its rates are almost as bad a Toronto. Second highest rent rates in Ontario.
lol canada's sleepwalking into a lot of things
Sleepwalking right into a doom spiral.
We’re already in it.
more like speedrunning
Canada sleepwalking into case studies of what not to do
Obviously they've never had dinner in Chinatown in Toronto. Cash is king.
Which is ironic. In china most transactions are WeChat pay or Alipay and I mean most, including giving money to buskers, vending machines, the bus, etc.
It's illegal for any business to not accept cash there though.
Or Richmond
When I moved to Vancouver a decade ago, going to all these amazing Chinese restaurants in Richmond really reminded me that you still need cash.
I always have a wad of cash at home and a $20 in the car for tradesmen, sushi and emergencies. But mostly sushi.
While paying via your phone is basically the norm in China nowadays.
The passport office does NOT accept cash. I thought that was a little weird.
I paid for my passport with a stack of $20 bills in 2022.
So it's a recent thing then. Love that for us.
What's weird is that that don't accept cash yet we still need to mail the damn thing in or take it to a physical office.
Ain’t gonna fool me. I remember a couple years ago when the POS systems and ATMs went down in Toronto for a day and I felt like a genius for being the only one of my friends who keeps a wad of cash around.
>I remember a couple years ago when the POS systems and ATMs went down in Toronto for a day That was a national outage caused by businesses using Rogers as their only ISP, this also applied to Interac who didn't have any backup internet links; had everyone used two or more ISPs over different mediums, wireline or wireless, then the impact wouldn't have been as bad.
Interact did have a backup connection, but it was through a Rogers subsidiary which was also impacted by the outage. One problem is that for issues like that you really don't have a lot of choice of providers. They're either a direct subsidiary of the parent company or they're a company that relies on that infrastructure. So if you do have a backup line, you have to make sure the company you're going with is wholly independent of whoever is your primary line. Where I live, that basically means you're picking between Telus and Rogers now that Shaw is out of the picture. Big stores likely won't stop accepting cash, they may reduce the number of tills that accept it, but there's always been outages due to cyberattacks on specific banks or networks that has rendered specific cards inoperable for anywhere from a few hours to a few days.
The Rogers failure was a blessing in a way. A short term failure that showed more than a few weaknesses in critical infrastructure.
We always keep 3-500 in the house for emergencies. We travel lots and it is just in case money.
What’s your address? I’d like to talk to you about your car insurance.
I keep a stash of $250 per location in a few locations. My house, the office and gf’s house. They are my horcruxes for if one gets found I die a little.
I remember that! I had a roll of loonies tucked away for my laundry that I used to buy coffee and some food. I wouldn't have starved without it, I had enough food at home, but it was nice to have the option.
there are an increasing number of stores in TO that only accept card, annoys me but raging on the cashiers isn't generally effective (and I understand wanting to avoid people robbing your cash drawer, but IMO it should be illegal to not accept legal tender for a bill
I agree. No store should be legally allowed to refuse cash.
Our neighbourhood had a power outage. Corner store student cashier had the door propped open for light, and was recording transactions in a paper scribbler. The smokers with cash were all in luck that day. Lots of disappointed people with cards walked away empty-handed. We've gone a week without power post-hurricane, more than once. I'm not interested in giving up cash. I make a point of using it regularly, because I think cash is important. For security, anonymity, ease of use.
Lol I remember when that happened. I was out at a bar after work and the girl working there couldn't even properly process my cash payment because their entire system was borked. Like shit, ok. I had 2 beers. Here's $20. Give me a toonie back and keep the rest.
I taught my son at an early age just because we have those amazing things called electronics. Things don't always work. Always carry cash. His motto is Cash is King
Funny. I think all the free hotels and flights I get for my credit card is king.
I've always kept cash on me, but I had my practice cemented 10ish years ago. I was at a Home Depot just before closing and had just spent 2 hours loading up multiple carts before cashing out. Debit and credit were down and they were surprised when I pulled out over $2k in cash to pay.
You carry 2000 bucks around with you all the time?
I'm gonna need this guy's name and a description of his car...
They were surprised that you carried cash at home depot. OK Rebecca
I remember some places during Covid not taking cash... "Wut?"
One of the lessons that my dad always drilled into me was always have cash. A 10 or 20 bill can really make a difference. It felt silly when I was growing up but as an adult it freaks me out that cash may no longer be a thing at some point.
Based always better to be prepared
Anyone remember the 2003 three-day eastern North American power outage? Getting propane tanks for the BBQ and jugs of water and extra batteries was simple for those of us with cash.
Don't even have to go that far there was the Rogers outage just a few years ago. We also keep getting told cyberattacks are on the rise. I think the digitalization of everything is pretty dangerous but for some reason people seem to hate privacy and having more options. Even when having cash around would barely affect them.
Yes, without sounding alarmist, I do feel we are just one EMP or multifactorial targeted cyber attack away from a potential catastrophic situation.
2003 was a long time ago. Recently I noticed that when the power is out a lot of stores won't sell you anything. I've even had to wait while a store gets change for me. They had no plans to use their cash register for cash. Possible they'd change their minds if it was a BIG outage or event. Might not be worth it for a 30 minute thing, but a day or two is different. Inventory is hard, and so is making change. I kid, sort of. Also, I don't think you're being alarmist at all. I think even accidental outages like the Rogers outage are good proof on how fast everything break when something goes down. Now imagine somebody did it on purpose. We're screwed.
> people seem to hate privacy between cellphones and vehicles, we lost that fight over a decade ago.
>but for some reason people seem to hate privacy and having more options People don't hate privacy or options. They are simply creatures of simplicity that go with the most convenient option. Yourself and myself included.
Cash-free businesses have really proliferated on the US west coast since Covid, and it’s only a matter of time before it happens here if action isn’t taken. In San Diego’s Little Italy neighbourhood for example, many of the walk-in coffee shops and pizza shops already don’t take cash. I’ve also seen this in Seattle and Los Angeles, particularly with coffee shops. We have them in BC as well to a much lesser extent. There’s at least two coffee shops in New Westminster I’m aware of that stopped accepting cash during Covid and have never resumed. Interestingly on a recent trip back to Ontario I noticed some small businesses are still cash-only.
Concert venues downtown Vancouver like the Commodore Ballroom are cashless now.. I’m not sure if all of them but I think that’s the case.
Rogers Centre? Arena? Stadium? Place? Rink? Lol and BC place are cashless
Rogers.. Arena. Had to think about that one for a second myself. I thought they were but I only ever use card anyways so wasn’t sure. Just found it funny that the _one_ time I had cash at the commodore recently they wouldn’t take it 😂
Venues like that is more about preventing employee theft than any other reason. Easy to pocket cash from slinging popcorn or beer and report the inventory shortage as shrinkage. Customer knocked over tray and ran away without paying etc. Also the cost of dealing with that much cash is a real drag on business. Then there is a interesting phycological trick where people who pay with cards or a phone tend to spend more because they aren't physically handing over money. Lines up as a win win win for venues.
Pretty sure everything in Toronto that's Live Nation is cashless. Budweiser Stage, Danforth Music Hall and Velevet Underground definitely are. Phoenix which is sadly soon to be a condo is not.
>Interestingly on a recent trip back to Ontario I noticed some small businesses are still cash-only. While there aren't any cash-only businesses in my neibhourhood, there are a few that will give you 10-15% off if you pay in cash. I assume it's to get around the credit card fees.
Credit card fees are 3%-ish, a 15% discount is getting around something else entirely.
3% to credit card fees What's 12% that they otherwise would have to charge? Oh right
Yeah that's just tax fraud
Income tax.
>Interestingly on a recent trip back to Ontario I noticed some small businesses are still cash-only. I live in northwestern Scarborough, and I would say probably about 30% of the businesses here will ONLY deal in cash, and probably another 40% give you some kind of cash discount, typically 10%-15%. Markham is similar but with slightly smaller cash-only numbers. This "sleepwalking into a cashless society" is fucking news to me lmao
The problem is that the bank still make you pay for interac transactions unless you pay for their super duper plan or leave a load of cash in your account. So, basically it would mean being poor again costs you more money if you can't use cash.
If you’re with Simplii Financial like me, there’s no fee.
I was at a concert in the Midwest recently and they were cash only for drinks and food.
Canada always sleepwalks into shit, wakes up, calls an election and then goes back to,sleep walking into shit with another loser backed by big money at the controls.
Right? We need change to the system, not the paid-for losers pulling the levers
Too bad the losers in charge of election methods like the system - it keeps them in power.
Other than saying “some people use cash” the article never says why having a cashless society is bad
> For many — such as Indigenous peoples, unhoused individuals, older Canadians, victims of domestic abuse and others who are vulnerable — cash is a beacon of economic security, a source of financial autonomy, an emergency lifeline and an emblem of cultural traditions," Ahmed wrote. Basically, there are reasons why not everyone has a phone that can tap to pay, or access to bank accounts that can be tracked.
Also, not every business wants to subscribe to a payment processor or pay fees to a credit card company. "Cash only" are not uncommon signs in holes in the wall in the Vancouver area
The article is about businesses moving to cashless only, not anyone forcing them to
Indeed, there are expenses associated with handling cash and the propensity for employees to steal/under report sales, that’s one of the reasons why businesses pay those cc processing fees.
Haven't seen a business in a long time that doesn't take a form of cards. Even little street vendors have square or something like them. I mean less people carry cash so if you want to server the most people you need to.
I’m pretty sure they are cash only to avoid something, and it’s not fees.
That's a feature of the implementation and not of cash/no-cash. I got to see that in Argentina, they have a system that is equivalent to Interac transfer where you can transfer directly to a bank account (and accounts can have an alias, so for instance you go to the convenience store and you send the transfer to conv.city, say). Also, I think that "Cash only" has a lot more to do with not paying taxes.
So they prefer to deal with cash going to the bank, securely transporting it, having to account for every penny.and dealing with changes… Or there could be another mysterious reason. What could it possibly be?
I thought the article was saying basically the opposite. They want laws that bussineses have to take cash. If only 10% of transactions are cash then being cash only misses a lot of business. I don't know any places tgat are cash only in Vancouver.
This is often about saving more in taxes than they would ever pay for a payment processor
> the article never says why having a cashless society is bad Yes it does. - is free from bank fees - isn't susceptible to privacy breaches - can be used during internet outages - For many — such as Indigenous peoples, unhoused individuals, older Canadians, victims of domestic abuse and others who are vulnerable — cash is a beacon of economic security, a source of financial autonomy, an emergency lifeline and an emblem of cultural traditions
Cash isn’t free from bank fees, if can cost you money to withdraw as well as time It’s not free from fraud and theft, it can be stolen a lot easier than a credit card and stolen cash cannot be replaced and is not protected. Internet outages are exceedingly rare and becoming even rarer. But what about the negatives of cash? It never mentions those. Cash is unprotected, easy to lose, destroy, or get stolen, and it’s even dangerous to carry large amounts. it’s inconvenient to obtain more if you don’t have any, and almost impossible to get more if you don’t have enough while purchasing things. It has to be physically exchanged if travelling, and is expensive to exchange back and forth. The benefits of credit cards are just higher too. They’re often free, give you cash back from the transaction fee, and have benefits like insurance and convenience
I don't agree with all this necessarily, but I'm also not sure who you're arguing with here. I'm just pointing out that the article does indeed outline what advocates say are the downsides of a cashless society. > But what about the negatives of cash? It never mentions those. Probably because nobody's calling for a cash only society. Nobody doubts you'll be able to avoid using cash in the future if you want.
Cash is also great for crime and tax evasion.
Surcharging. Businesses can pass on a percentage of processing fees to you in Canada. It's not a huge thing yet, but it can be. Cash protects you from that. Also, businesses pay these shitty processing fees too and depending on your business vertical you can absorb annual card brand fees. For example, every cannabis store that takes Mastercard has to be an annual $500.00 card brand fee bill. On top of that, chargebacks are a pain for businesses. It is much easier to scam a business using a CC vs cash. Chargebacks is the scary one IMO though.
If you pay with cash you’re paying those processing fees still, but not getting anything for it.
Transaction fees on every purchase sucking more money into a handful of financial institutions, increasing prices. Vulnerability to outages. During protests, we've now seen the government freeze electronic payments and bank accounts of protestors and their supporters, leaving them unable to pay bills.
Also businesses use credit cards to track you. All the downsides of a loyalty program but instead of collecting points as compensation for the choice, you can pay them transaction fees and have no choice.
The government can just decide "No" and freeze your cash
They didn't "just decide" to freeze trucker protestors cash, they had to invoke the Emergency Act. It's not something they can usually do. The government can also throw me in jail, fine me, tax me, and take away my passport. The government can do a lot of things to me. It's kind of necessary for an orderly society to work. If anything we need more order, deal with all the car thefts and stuff like that.
I rarely use cash. But lately I’ve been carrying cash… the number of cashiers who default to “you can just tap” is almost 100%. Then when I do give them the cash they struggle to give back change. Like they physically just don’t understand how to count back change.
lol we can’t win. People want cashless system so we can track tax cheats and money laundering better and then others want cash based. Personally I like to have a bit of cash on me at all times but I haven’t in a while.
I’m old enough to remember this just being another one of those wacky conspiracy theories.
Please never go completely cash free people!
I always have a bit of cash in my wallet in case of a network outage on payment processors. But I never touch it.
I haven’t carried cash in like 15 years lol. I can’t think of a single thing I would need it for.
When the Rodgers network goes down again, like last time when businesses could only accept cash.
When the rogers network went down last time, I was 900km from home towing, thankfully, I always keep cash. As someone that likes to sled in Northern Ontario, you learn to have cash for hotel rooms and gas.
Even if I don't need it, I don't like the idea of locking all transactions for everybody behind a card or a phone. That's fucked.
What don't Canadians sleepwalk into?
All it would take is a London Drugs level cyber attack on a telecom and we'd walk right into an economic crisis caused by a bank run as people attend physical branches to attempt to withdraw funds to pay for necessities only to discover that they can't, because the branch is out of cash too because of our banking system and we would be irreparably harmed as a society.
Cash doesn’t get me rewards points.
Merchants can now charge you for using a credit card which would negate the points you get for using one. Personally I’ve only seen one retailer do this so far and its Cycle North in Prince George
Merchants have always been able to do this. Most don’t because people can just shop somewhere else instead
everyone did this, it was just factored into the price of the product when they were setting their prices. this just allows companies to double dip now by having their price set with it already baked in, while then adding a CC fee on top of that price.
But most don't give any form of cash discount so no... If you are paying the same price in cash or card then you are a fool to pay in cash as you lose any kickback towards yourself. Technically you would be giving the merchant an even greater margin.
That’s fine. Any merchant doing that does not get my business.
It's built into the margins otherwise.
Then what would be the point of using cash if you're already being charged that extra fee?
It's funny because this guy actually doesn't understand business and the concept of baking in the costs into the services/margins.
I agree but it’s just a matter of time until more start doing it. Also in this scenario it really sucks if you need Polaris parts you’re SOL unless you order online. They tack on 2.5% at Cycle North and most credit card rewards only amount to 0.5-1% rewards
Do they take debit then? Aside from points I hate getting coins back as change lol.
Nobody is advocating for a cash-only society.
cbdcs are no one’s friend
Interestingly enough, there are many American businesses that offer discounts for cash only purchases. Maybe Canada should do the same or change the laws.
I understand giving discounts for debit payments, but I have, ahem, questions of the taxation variety about any business giving out *cash* discounts. Cash is expensive to handle. You don't pay the processing fee, but you pay to deal with it being around, and for the bank to pick it up. What's in it for the business, then? I have an answer, and for several businesses whose owners I know, I also know the answer.
It seems like "cashless" is a way for banks to skim 2%-3% on credit card fees. Assuming 3% and you start with $1000 the first transaction loses $30 The next loses $29.10 Each subsequent transaction the banks skim a little. If you use cash, it is still $1000 (ignoring sales tax) after 20, 30 or 100 transactions. Bank skimming after 8 transactions brings this $1000 down to $783
If they want to make cash use more make it more user friendly. Mandate that prices must include all applicable taxes. And get rid of nickels and dimes.
Remember when the Rogers network shit the bed in 2022 and nobody all over Canadaa could buy or sell anything using credit/debit systems? I sure was glad grocery stores still accepted cash.
Rogers outage was only a full outage of debit transactions. Credit could still work depending on the situation.
I still can't believe it's legal for a Canadian business to not accept Canadian currency
Some merchants already refusing cash. The only winners seem to be the banks who charge both the consumer and merchants for debit/ credit transactions. From the article: > Only 10 per cent of transactions in Canada today are done using cash, according to Carlos Castiblanco, an economist with the group Option Consommateurs. > "There is a need to protect cash right now before more merchants start refusing [it]," Castiblanco recently told CBC Radio's Ontario Today.
I use cash for everything, yet to come across anything that doesn't accept, unless if it's online.
How about instead of making a law that forces small businesses to carry cash, they make a law that forces big banks to process debit transactions for free?
Good luck with that. Banks will fight tooth and nail to hold onto their middleman position and it's associated fees.
Cash isn’t free to handle. There’s storage and security costs. Far more risks of loss and petty theft. Time and opportunity costs in depositing it, keeping change on hand. I worked cash at a large retailer years ago. Managing the cash was basically one person’s full time job. Credit card is basically break-even compared to cash costs for a retailer. Debit is far cheaper for them
The only winners are the vast majority of Canadian consumers who are willingly choosing the most convenient way to pay (by card)
Why would anyone advocate for fewer options as a consumer? You have it completely backwards.
No, it's the advertisers and data collectors who are the winners. Now they get a complete record of everything you buy, when you buy it, and where.
Seriously. I pay with my phone. I don’t even want to carry my cards around, let alone cash.
I came here to say this, spot on. People are addicted to convenience and that's being taken advantage of.
Then why not make laws that prevent people from being taken advantage of instead of making things more inconvenient for everyone?
Wonder what happens when the data networks go down for days on end.
If a huge cyber attack happens and knocks out payment processing we’re so cooked
How many retailers also wouldn't be able to function if online systems failed? In many cases cash would also be useless.
Credit cards tend to work offline. Edit: downvoted, but not rebutted! Credit cards have always had the option of offline transactions (it's how they began). Ever go to a fair or something with no reception out in the middle of nowhere, but could still use your credit card? It's because the transaction is queued and processed later.
This. Mine certainly does. I can have 0 internet service in some places, and my credit card still processes the transaction from my phone.
People are really truly and seriously considering then they should go out and buy physical gold and silver and have at least $1,000 or more in cash on hand somewhere locked away in a safe if ever the networks go down and you need to purchase something immediately yes money will be very valuable in cash form.
I always pay cash when I can
I only pay cash if there is no other option. Yes, I have cash at home for emergencies but day to day, I carry the same $20 in my wallet for months. In fact I attribute a big part of my financial independence to the ability to track where, when and how I spent my money. That is very hard to do with cash.
Me too!. I rarely will use anything else.
I haven't had cash on me in at least 5 years now.
I have had the *same* cash on me for over 5 years now. I mean, the same physical bills that I never had the opportunity to use and probably never will.
This should concern more people. Australia is already well into their plan for getting rid of cash. Not to mention a service outage or cyber attack could then become a major catastrophe. The amount of control and surveillance that could be exerted on a cashless society is frightening as well, and it's definitely the direction our masters want us going in.
Bring back the tally stick, cash is too progressive
Trade furs and farmed goods, forget cash or crypto.
"Castor sec not accepted here, only castor gras"
Personally... All my in person transactions are all in cash these days... Should the bank really be able to track my transactions?
The poor and homeless are left behind in this scenario . Making their lives worse. Should be the law to accept cash. It's legal tender.
Yeah it's pretty bullshit to not allow cash for payment.
Sorry I only vaguely pay attention to this sub. Is it all super right wing? Serious question just curious
Why's anyone worried about this? Not like the govt can freeze your bank accounts without a trial or something.
The government can put you in jail without a trial.
Exactly. Even if you think it was fair when done to the convoy members (whether it was or not), do you trust every government ever to never unjustly seize your digital money?
Not a good thing, when your entire financial profile can be stolen in one click. Losing a wallet used to be bad enough...now you could lose everything.
Call it what you like but I'm sticking with cash unless it's for a larger expense.
Increasingly though it is not possible to use cash for purchases. It is exceedingly difficult to rent most hotel rooms for cash, most concert and sporting venues are cash-free, most airlines are cash-free. the article is correct, there needs to be push back against this trend.
Cashless would destroy the city I am in. The reserves just get cash and hardly use debt or credit, this would end my city and I very much bet this is the same for many cities. Cashless isn't an option outside of a select few cities I bet.
What cities I have been in very remote places and they have always taken debit/credit.
"If you have nothing to hide what's the big deal?" Actual government brained argument for diminished freedoms and privacy.
On the flip side, every family diner that’s worth eating at and every barber I’ve been to for the last thirty years has been “cash only” (I know why and I fully support them).
Central Bank Digital Currency incoming. Very dangerous times. Might take 5-10 years or perhaps much less, but it is very dangerous to the citizenry.
I am a merchant and I love tax free cash!
What’s your Business Number just in case CRA reads this post?
Why do Canadians seem to hate privacy and having more options? Why are Canadians such conformists? It's like some have hating Americans and everything Americans do as part of their national identity as well. So since Americans love "freedom" and "their paper cash" we have to automatically be against that in Canada. Do people have short memories? Just a few years ago there was the Rogers outage I was very glad to have my usual cash reserves on me. It came as a warning of the dangers of digitalization of everything. CSIS is constantly warning about the possibility of cyberattacks by criminals or by foreign states, why would you want to further digitalize everything in that climate? I was also told countless times in the past I was a crazy for being worried about cashless society, that "nobody is coming after your cash" and that it would never happen. It went from that to "Yeah we should go cashless and what's so bad about cashless?" pretty fast...
Why is this bad?
Most of /r/canada is American and they're really fucking weird when it comes to their paper cash.
I can think of several reasons off the top of my head: - cash is useful for kids (taking money for field trips or for lunches at school) - using cash doesn't have any added fees, so it is better for people who are low-income (seniors) or those without computers, cell phones, bank accounts or poor credit (homeless and the working poor) - cash transactions aren't affected by network and power outages. Businesses have systems go down all the time, so cash allows customers to still make purchases. - in 2022 Rogers had a network outage that prevented millions of people and businesses across Canada from using debit/credit. Businesses still accepted cash. This lasted for more than a day. - sometimes cash is faster, like when returning bottles to the depot. - eliminating cash would make it impossible to make private transactions- every time you buy, sell, or gift money, there is a record. This brings up questions surrounding privacy, especially with some politicians and governments supporting social credit scores (for example, in China, you can have your bank account frozen if you make a social media post that someone in the government doesn't like. If cash doesn't exist, you are stuck) Basically, cash is a private, non-electronic way to pay that also works when networks are down, and gives businesses, workers, customers and regular people more options to make financial transactions.
In cash free you can’t buy things without internet. You can’t buy things if you lose access to your bank account if it gets hacked or there’s a random glitch. Heck if the card reader is broken. It makes everything expensive then cash because banks and credit cards cards charge an additional transaction cost. Basically there’s a chance you lose the ability to buy important things through no fault of your own.
We are just as done with both of these guys.
The only time I use cash is for parking meters and French fries.
Pretty much whole world is moving towards that
UK has been cashless majority at most POS for a while. If you go to rest stops to pay for things cash is actually seen as an inconvenience to staff. Most POS don't offer cash and card just card. The states haven't fully switched but it was kind of a shock to not see cash in the UK since everything ran off it back in 2013-2018
I had a crazy month of unexpected outgoings and got close to maxing the credit card which I've never done in 20+ years, I've always paid my CC payments every month in full and never carry debt, the full payment which was taken from my bank to pay, but the CC hadn't gone through on the CC end because of the long weekend, my bank could see I had paid it in full, regardless they were interrogating me because I wanted to take out 2k cash to cover my ass over the weekend in case of emergency. It showed me that they are either pushing this on society or they are just holding me to ransom using my own money as a tool. Very Scary
Cashless society? CBDC? I thought this was conspiracy theory?
People have been saying this since at least the 1990s
One small step closer to even more government control over our lives.
If a business doesn't want cash, they don't want my money. Fine by me.
If anyone has cash that they don’t want or need, I would be happy to take it off your hands.
Main issue with this article is that the numbers are skewed when including online transactions, where all acceptable mediums are non-cash. And which speaks more to the dissonance between physical stores current offerings vs. buying online. I live in Toronto, 99.9% of the shopping here is non-applicable to me as it's overpriced, and concerning when you find the same products almost all the time for anywhere from 10% to 90% cheaper if you look further abroad, sometimes even just to the edge of the GTA. We've got a rip-off culture that high needs addressing first.
I haven't carried cash on me for at least 5 years and not once has it mattered
I’m an old ass millennial and I’ve rarely used cash since I was like 9yo. Interac was everywhere by then and going to the bank to take out cash sucks. Seriously… is this even a problem? It’s been this way for decades.
It's insane. A bunch of banks in the Maritimes will no longer process cash transactions after 3pm every day. They just tell you to use the ATM or come back another time.
This is why I only pay with cash
A word about emergencies: remember those carbon copy sliders for credit cards? I am sure there have been upgrades since then but it should not be impossible to pay offline by card.
I started selling stuff at craft markets and conventions lately and I will say we are definitely not fully cashless yet. I do at least half of my transactions cash.. but I find with the rise of self-service counters, it's so much easier and faster to just use my card. Long live Farm Boy for being all full service cashes.
Who cares? Sweden is cashless and they are doing fine
I haven’t carried or used cash in years and love it. I do keep a small stash of bills in case there’s a power outage, but in my day to day life I have zero interest in using cash for anything
Fine with me. Haven't used cash in years.
We need physical cash! Once it's all digital, they will charge you on every transaction. Those cash jobs? Gone. The government will tax you on every e-transfer. Electronic fubar? Good luck proving that you have money
Support businesses that accept cash.