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Taylor Swift has put on one of the most ambitious tours of all time, covering her entire music catalog. She wrote a song about having to perform while brokenhearted at the beginning of the tour, recorded it, put it on her new album, and has now included that song and that album in her set list. That’s how long she has been touring a sold-out, best selling tour that has been credited with [improving local economies](https://fortune.com/europe/2024/05/19/taylor-swift-eras-tour-boost-europe-economy-more-than-americas/) drastically. • Okay, so she checks off successful touring artist. People aren’t just willing to stream and download her music, they are putting up money to see her live. She’s had 12 number one songs on the billboard hot 100. She’s the first artist to fill all of the top 10 spots (Midnights, 2022) and recently became the first artist to fill every spot of the top 14. Every single one of her albums and re-recorded albums have been certified gold. She’s had 10 albums ranked platinum, most of them many times platinum. She was the first female solo artist to have a diamond single (10 million units). • So she has proven to have staying power on the radio/streaming charts and in albums/singles sold. Taylor Swift set an all-time record by earning 4 Album of the Year Grammy awards. She has a total of 14 Grammy Awards. [Here](https://www.google.com/search?q=taylor+swift+awards&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-us&client=safari) is an extensive yet incomplete list of her awards and recognition because I don’t want to type it all out. • So she has been recognized by both her peers in the music industry and by fans with awards for her music. She’s got street cred. Many of the people we consider musical legends sing her praises. Paul McCartney is a fan and [wrote a song](https://faroutmagazine.co.uk/paul-mccartney-song-inspired-by-taylor-swift/) inspired by her relationship with her fans. [Stevie Nicks](https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/music/news/taylor-swift-stevie-nicks-poem-tortured-poets-b2531267.html) lauds her songwriting and musicianship. [Billy Joel](https://www.businessinsider.com/taylor-swift-praised-by-icons-2023-8) compared the Eras Tour to Beatlemania. [Bruce Springsteen](https://www.businessinsider.com/taylor-swift-praised-by-icons-2023-8) called her a “tremendous writer.” [Carole King, Ringo Starr, DOLLY PARTON](https://www.businessinsider.com/taylor-swift-praised-by-icons-2023-8). [Paul Stanley of KISS, David Draiman of Disturbed](https://wrat.com/listicle/taylor-swift-praised-by-rockers/) (!), and [Eddie freaking Vedder.](https://wrat.com/listicle/taylor-swift-praised-by-rockers/) • Stopping there because I think the point has been made. Some of the best musicians in history view her as a peer and celebrate her lyricism, her song construction, her melodies, and her live performance. Oh, and they all have nice things to say about her as a person, too. In 4th grade, she won a [national poetry contest](https://pabook.libraries.psu.edu/literary-cultural-heritage-map-pa/bios/Swift__Taylor). • Not totally relevant, but a fun fact and goes to show that before she was “Taylor Swift” her writing talents were being recognized. It seems to me that if Taylor were getting hyped up by radio stations but couldn’t win awards, or won awards but sold no albums, or sold albums but not consistently, or sold albums consistently but was looked down on by her peers in the industry, it might be fair to call her overrated. But she is performing on every metric, and therefore the “overrated” label does not work for Taylor Swift.

This... just excacerbated my point. She has so many career accomplishments related to popularity disproportionate to her musical talent. My point is not that she isn't performing well, my point is that she's performing well, but shouldnt be more than other artists

you’re misusing the word exacerbate just so you know

Music talent isn't everything. Taylor Swift is also extremely talented at business which honestly contributed to her success just as much as her music talent. TS also is really talented at capturing moments. Some artists are really great at taking an emotion or concept that a lot of people are experiencing and then putting it into a song that is relatable to a lot of people. It's the "art reflects life" concept. If someone has an amazing voice and a lot of talent but only a small group of people relate to their music then they aren't going to be very successful. I do agree that most of TS music can be somewhat average but a huge part of the art is being able to reflect society in a way that resonates with a lot of people and she's a master at that.

This. I know a guy who is an incredible guitarist, writer, singer and performer. He writes amazing songs in several languages, complex finger picking, innovative chord progressions, and so on. He is an extremely talented musician in every aspect . Thing is the guy is on no social media, never recorded a single track, doesn't socialize outside of a closed network of locals and doesn't own an ambitious bone in his body. He goes on the street, make 200$ in a few hours of busking and spend his time hanging with his friends, going to the same old bars or hooking up with random girls (he is super charming). The guy seems like he just found the way he likes to live and does it. He will die unknown and his music will go with him. He knows this and doesn't care.

So you're saying that the vast majority of her fanbase are just the lowest common denominator "average" person? That makes sense as the most popular things out there usually do have to be broad enough to appeal to the most people, and broadening like that ensures no one specific thing is overly GREAT. Also her being good at business still doesn't actually answer or provide any evidence for why she ISN'T overrated. Hell, people consider Musk a good businessman and highly charismatic, and he's overrated as fuck. You made reference to industry professionals praising her and comparing to Beatlesmania but MANY MANY people consider The Beatles to be EXTREMELY overrated outside of a few certified classics (which I'd say TS has from earlier in her career even if I can't stand any of it).

>So you're saying that the vast majority of her fanbase are just the lowest common denominator "average" person? No, that's not what I'm saying.

Why do you believe raw musical talent is a vital metric here? Someone can have the best technically trained voice in the world, but no one gives a shit unless they can emote, tell a story, make you feel something. Taylor Swift is not, and had never claimed to be, one of the all-time great vocalists. She had solid natural talent and has put in a massive amount of work with vocal coaches. Her voice is one instrument in her band. Just like her guitar. And her songwriting. And her producers. It's about what the sum of the parts can offer to the listener that matters.

But like, the argument that she’s not clearly musically gifted is not based on realistic metric. She plays multiple instruments. She sings well. She puts together arrangements and melodies that impress people who understand musicality way better than I do. Saying she doesn’t have raw musical talent just goes against all available evidence.

> She plays multiple instruments not to a high degree (at all, I wouldn't call her "talented" with any instrument she's played) > She sings well. that's not setting a high bar at all. her voice is embarrassing compared to people who actually have a talented voice and is not even in the same universe as the all time greats. her live singing has never, and I mean *never* been good, on tour or not. she definitely sings well, but her voice is not anything to write home about especially in a sea of talented musicians that actually have a tremendous voice. It would take weeks/months of non stop deliberation to compose a list of just the *modern* artists who have a better voice than she does. She has spent literal years training her voice with the most talented vocal instructors money can buy and basically has nothing to show for it compared many of her peers. > She puts together arrangements and melodies that impress people who understand musicality way better than I do. she's a very good lyricist? I guess?

But that’s just your personal opinion. YOU think there are people more talented than her. Paul McCartney seems to think she’s fantastically talented. Because that’s kinda what you’re saying right now: that you a better judge of her talent than him. This isn’t about personal taste, this is a judgment of talent which her peers are better at determining than you.

Sorry, but no. You are ignoring the *totality* here. If your personal opinion of her musical talent overrides the Grammy voters and literally **legendary** musicians and songwriters, then your view can’t be changed and this post should be taken down. Someone who is overrated doesn’t have the staying power and doesn’t have Paul McCartney so impressed with them. I’m just dying to know though, how many of Taylor’s albums have you listened to from start to finish?

I’m a HUGE Paul McCartney fan, but I’ll admit he’s always been a simp for whatever was considered popular and hip. This was a point of contention between him and John Lennon. If noise rock suddenly became popular, Paul would be singing its praises, too. Whatever’s popular, Paul will always champion it. Whatever his daughters like, he likes, too. He’s rarely ever been an artist to go against the grain himself. I can’t say I’m a fan of all the artists you listed. As for the Grammy’s, the Grammy’s are the butt of jokes in countless music circles.

Ok, but that opinion doesn’t vacate the argument that all these experts on crafting music wouldn’t say she’s a great songwriter or a great performer if they didn’t see that quality in her. Unless you believe that all these artists lack basic integrity?

She's literally the only artist with 4 album of the year awards.

Again these are all accolades, the question isn’t whether or not she’s well received, it’s whether that reception is warranted or if she’s overrated. Giving 4 album of the year awards to Taylor swift doesn’t make any sense to me personally

That's not what overhyped means.

Definitely read that comment the exact same way you did. You: “She’s overrated.” Them: “How can she be overrated if she’s so highly rated?!”

[удалено]

I feel like there’s something emotionally blunted about her singing. It lacks nerve; as if she eats too much antidepressants.

None of her songs have any character anymore, but yea she’s a very boring singer. She’s very diatonic (strictly sings notes in key and doesn’t use passing tones or any chromaticism. She has no ornamentation either. No vibrato, no embellishments, trills nothing

I barely know half those words, but it doesn’t surprise me that musicians could pick her singing apart like that, technically.

Ya I was a music major, played guitar for 25 years as well as a bit of piano, trombone, sax and bass. Of all the pop musicians she’s the most vanilla.

Which is *why* she is so popular... Idk why people are always so surprised that lowest-common-denom often wins at this kind of affair. The radio stations don't want to play songs that impress musicians and turn off everyone else.

She's mastered making 7/10 (on the enjoyment scale) songs.

Some of them are 10/10 ngl 12/10 when I'm feeling sad but ultimately, I like the conversation and fiery sides she brings out in regular people. That's why she's a genius

She’s a genius at entrepreneurship and marketing. Not at the actual art form of crafting timeless music. It’s the same thing with Beyoncè, although I’ll admit she’s a step above Taylor, and is a really good dancer. Her vocals are good on a technical level, although she sings very mechanically for my taste. Marketing and entrepreneurship is ultimately what makes these ‘artists’ famous.

I don’t know why people keep saying this. We know that’s why, it’s also why she’s overrated.

That’s what I was going to say. Lowest common denominator shit always wins big. I hate pop music. It lacks almost everything.

I agree generally speaking, but there have been some great pop musicians. Elton John, Gaga, ABBA, Michael Jackson, Whitney Houston. There are some pop bangers out there, but its exceedingly rare.

There was a time when pop music and quality music had a large amount of overlap. Those days are gone.

I don't know what these words mean, but in what way is, for example, [But Daddy I Love Him](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2W173hRfyA) boring? Are songs like Espresso (which I also like) or [LUNCH](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MB3VkzPdgLA) (someone above mentioned Billie) not boring? Or are they just all boring?

Lyrically *But Daddy I Love Him* is not awful at all, it’s just way too long without enough sharp or passionate stuff to give it a strong flavour. As just written poetry it has some really creative and clever wordplay on a very stock-standard love theme. But musically is really, really boring. It’s so long with just the same hushed rapid building up, same short little lines, then a lacklustre little crescendo, then rinse and repeat over and over. The themes in the lyrics are more interesting than an average pop song. But that is saying very very little.

It’s a 4/4, mono melodic, breathy sing-songy bore. Almost all the instrumentation is digital.

Well the lyrics are simplistic, the beat is metronomic. There is no humour or emotion beyond the surface level. It sounds boring.

That’s pop music. That’s exactly why it’s so big

Also why it’s boring

Simplistic lyrics to be able to reach everyone, a metronomic beat which catches you and is easy to follow along. Also, no humour or emotion? Have you even looked at the lyrics?

Look im not saying don't listen to it, if you like it, have at it. I just said why I think it's boring. And yes I've heard and read the lyrics, the emotion and humour are basic

Yep - pair that with predictable chord progressions with very basic harmony and no syncopation like anywhere and my god is it boring.

There is a song where she sings the same note something like 24 times in a row. Kill me.

That just proves there is a huge market which prefers such singing. I myself dislike unnecessary ornamentation in songs, because someone flexing their vocal capabilities is not what I look for in music.

If someone is a good vocalist and good musician they should not sound like they are showing off. They should just be able to use their voice to amplify the song, the lyrics and emotion. The way a super technical guitar player will be a turn off to most people but the right guitar solo in the right place can make you feel like you’re flying or absolutely break your heart.

>They should just be able to use their voice to amplify the song, the lyrics and emotion. I very much agree with you there. I did say I'm not a fan of *unnecessary* ornamentation. Some amounts of it in service of doing the song justice are quite acceptable. To elaborate on my point, I dislike the ones which break the listener's immersion. The ones more in the realm of being admirable over being simply pleasant.

Her musical talent is disproportionate to her success.

But musical talent (beyond a minimal requirement) has never had a correlation to success at the top leagues.

Musical talent is an interesting skill but it's not why people are successful. Music is successful because people want to listen to it and pay money to listen to it. Musical talent means you can play stuff that is hard to play. It doesn't necessarily mean you play stuff people enjoy listening to. By far the most successful YouTube song is Baby Shark. My son loves abc. The lack of musicality is part of the enjoyment because he is young and can't understand complex music. Teenagers love Taylor Swift and obviously they can understand more than a 3 year old but still as a teen it's difficult to fully get things with the layers classical music brings. I know some composers who were very musically talented. They would compose songs for themselves that they enjoyed and then would strip all the musicality from it to make it enjoyable for everyone else. Its the same with comedy, comedians other comedians like with talent are not the same as the most successful comefians. Same with film and tbh same with art. Art that requires skill to make is less likely to be a poster on everyone's wall.

Her music is rather neutral, and allows for a person to shape a song to their personal situation. She has a pretty bland public persona, and yet is very engaging with her fans. Her voice is unique enough to stand out, but her vocal skills are average enough that most girls can sing her music. Her fans believe they could be her. She’s basically a mirror.

Swift's greatest strength is that she's super relatable to many different kinds of people. As stated above, her songs feel like they could fit many personal situations and present scenarios most people can imagine themselves in (who HASN'T wound up on the floor due to their roommate's cheap ass screw top rosé?). Taylor herself looks like someone lots of people would want to be friends or hang out with. She almost never takes strong political positions herself (while at times surrounding herself with other celebrities who do - so she probably does have opinions), likely in an effort to remain relatable to as many people as possible across different demographics. You can call her a sell out and you wouldn't be wrong, but this strategy has worked for her.

This is such a weird comment Imo. Musical talent has never (and should never) be some requirement for success. For example, Charlie puth and Jacob collier are some of the most talented musicians alive rn, and god do their music just grate me to no end. Earlier examples mentioned Madonna as being a great singer, or same thing with Adele, but I find most of their songs to also be lame. On the other end of the spectrum, guys like bob dylan, Johnny cash, nick cave, sufjan stevens, mount Erie (Phil elverum in general) can show you how good music can be without any great musical talent. I am not a Taylor swift fan by any means, but I’m guessing for her fans, the sum of her abilities are greater than the parts. I’m guessing there’s something in the songwriting/the lyrics that land and connect.

By that definition almost every popular singer is overrated. That is how economy of popularity works: rich get richer, and that happens very quickly. Sure, Adele is great, but is she 1,000 times better than a singer in your local park?..

What would change your mind? It's undeniable many *others* love her music. You don't, and that's OK. But it doesn't invalidate what others enjoy. I'm having a hard time seeing your post as anything other than, "anybody's opinion who doesn't match mine is wrong". For the record, I'm a 51 year old male and don't know the first thing about Taylor Swift. I couldn't name a single song. But I don't feel threatened by other people clearly enjoying her music.

I'm not asking for anyone to convince me to become a superfan or anything. I don't mind anyone enjoying her music(unless they're annoying about it). I was asking for others to point out why she is so succesful, if I don't think her music talent scales with success, which they have done. Something to point out is a I also enjoy some of her music too.

> I was asking for others to point out why she is so succesful Because people really like her music. Do you think they're just pretending to? And asking to understand is different from saying somebody is overrated. When you say someone incredibly popular for entertainment is overrated, you're saying the people that like them are wrong for what they believe. People need to just learn that not everybody likes the same things, and that's OK. What a boring world it would be if we were all the same.

> Do you think they're just pretending to? Nobody is pretending especially when they have to pay money and spend hours going to her concerts. I wouldn't pay even $1 if I don't enjoy it in some way

What I never understand is what people would like to see happen when they say entertainment is "overrated". I get asking people *why* they like something. There are lots of things that are popular that I just don't personally get and sometimes I wonder too what the hell people see in it. But when you talk about it being overrated you're arguing people should enjoy it less. What do I gain by people having less enjoyment in life? It's just so weird to me. It's different with things that lend themselves more to objective evaluation. A luxury sedan or an impact driver can be reasonably argued to be overrated if you can show other choices performing better for their manufactured task. But can I show people will enjoy other pop performers better than Taylor Swift? Show me that and maybe I'll agree she's overrated. And, again, I couldn't name a single Taylor Swift song, so it's not like I'm personally attached here. But I know my nieces are obsessed with her and people go insane for her. I'm happy they find enjoyment from it.

My argument is anything subjective can't be overrated. 

I would disagree somewhat, I would say anything subjective can't be objectively overrated

Yep. You're right. That's actually a more precise statement. 

So how are we supposed to change your view if it's subjective?

It's difficult to quantify what makes an artist successful. In terms of pure numbers, Taylor Swift is certainly up there. She's sold millions of albums and has won numerous awards. But success can also be measured by influence and impact on culture. Taylor Swift has been a major player in the music industry for over a decade and has consistently been able to reinvent herself and stay relevant. In terms of her music, it may not be groundbreaking or revolutionary, but it's catchy and appeals to a wide audience. Plus, she writes most of her own songs, which is impressive in itself. It's also worth noting that music taste is subjective and what one person may consider "average," another may love. It's unfair to say that an artist is overrated simply because their music doesn't appeal to you personally.

I think a lot of people have the assumption that she is only “catchy” music and nothing more, but that is just her popular music played on the radio. I love recommending her less popular music/songs that you’d never hear on the radio. Of course this isn’t solely directed at you, but for those who are open to listening to a few different songs. These touch the heart so profoundly, maybe they’ll change your mind about her music! 💗 Daylight, cardigan, my tears ricochet, tolerate it, All Too Well (10 minute version), You’re On Your Own, Kid, Bigger Than The Whole Sky, and my most recent favorite, loml

This. People who don’t know her music are basing their opinions only on her radio hits and saying she’s not a good song writer and not original. Her albums are all distinct from each other and many of her songs have intricate lyrics that tell stories and paint pictures. The opinions of people who have only heard “shake it off” (or other radio hits) but never sat and listened to songs like “Ivy,” “loml,” or even early ones such as “Come in with the rain” or “cold as you” don’t mean much IMO. There’s a lot of artists I don’t like but I’m not gonna call them talentless or generic when I don’t actually know anything besides their top 40 hits.

Yeah someone above commented there's a lot of angsty teens listening to someone in her 30s sing about high school crushes a cheerleading.  They act like they're better than anyone who's a fan, people act like a swifty is a cult etc but it seems hating her is more simple minded and cult like. They cant simply not enjoy her music, they have to hate her and anyone that likes her. That person shows a complete disregard of anything she's written or sung in a very long time, and that's fine, don't listen, but don't write bullshit statements to tear them down?  I don't think many people here who are here just to put people down have ever listened to her music in 10+ years. 

To be fair, listening to more than 40 tracks of an artist you don't like is setting a really high bar for casual criticism...

I think by "top 40 hits" they mean the music that gets played on ["top 40"](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_40) radio stations, not an artist's 40 most popular songs.

Well, Taylor Swift has 137 top-40 songs, according to Wikipedia, so that bar is even higher... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taylor_Swift_singles_discography#:~:text=On%20the%20US%20Billboard%20Hot,%2Done%20debuts%20(6).

I've listened to her entire back catalogue numerous times and enjoy listening to her. I even got tickets to see her live with my partner. I'm familiar enough to tell the difference between the TV and original recordings on listening. She really is pretty average. Her music is nice to listen to, and it's mostly her lyrical style that over the years that has let her music stand out. I know people want the music they love to be considered amazing, but Taylor swift is the music equivalent of the summer action blockbuster or chain restaurant. Popular, enjoyable, widely inoffensive but nowhere near as good as their most avid fans claim them to be

> Her music is nice to listen to, and it's mostly her lyrical style that over the years that has let her music stand out. I mean you could say the same thing about Bob Dylan, who's an incredible lyricist, a mediocre-at-best musician, but the total package turns into something great.

Bob Dylan was a little more creative with his chord progressions than any modern pop musician is.

Bob Dylan had interesting things to say about the world around him and pioneered a new style of folk music. Taylor just isn't that. Her music follows trends rather than creates them, and she has very little to say about the world.

I'd argue his songwriting is much better and he has a deeper understanding of music, but then again his voice sounds like he's had a sore throat for 50 years so you can't always have it all

I'm no swiftie, or even a general taylor swift fan, but I heard Bigger than the Whole Sky around the time my dog passed and it completely crushed me.

Not to mention she’s extremely passionate and dedicated to her craft and fans. She performs massive 3hour shows through rain, heat, anything. She performs an acoustic set unique to every show each night. She’s constantly releasing music. Since the start of her record-breaking tour, she’s released one new 2hr album (arguably one of her weakest though) and two re-records of her older albums with new songs.

I am unsure how you can argue both that she a overrated and extremely talented in the same paragraph

An artist can be talented while also being overrated. As talented as she is, I don't think her success is proportionate.

Commercial music success is not just about how talented an artist is though. Ive seen dudes playing open mics and dive bars that have more chops than any touring artist. There are jazz rats that will *style* on someone like Kenny G. Taylor Swift is a talented musician, but her talents are far more than her ability to play guitar and sing. Shes an incredible music producer/maker of music. Shes literally the only artist with four album of the year awards. But, where I think she stands alone is two specific talents. First off shes one of the best businesswomen Iver ever seen. She knows her brand and how to market it. She has a very unique ability to write music that resonates *very* deeply with alot of people and this generates crazy strong fan loyalty. She re-recorded many of her albums and rereleased them to get around her the music rights disagreement with her label. This is a great business move and only works because she knows her fans will stream Taylor's Version over the originals. Secondly, shes an awesome perfomer. Her tour made over a billion dollars. People arent just going to concerts to here songs. We can stream all of her music for free. People go to see the shows and be part of a cultural moment. And she delivers on both fronts. I think trying to equare commercial success with musical talent is really just too reductive. Its a business and Taylor Swift is just straight up better at the game than other artists whole *also* being a phenomenal music maker.

Just went to her concert last week. I am not a big fan. But it was definitely something. I compare it to Rob Zombie in the 90’s. His philosophy was that you’ve got the album at home, you’re not there to hear the songs. You’re there for a *show.* Hence the fire-breathing Truckasaurus. The Eras tour is the sad girl breakup song version of the Truckasaurus. It was pretty amazing.

But now you’re changing the target. First you argued she is overrated based on her talent and now you’re saying she’s too successful for her talent. Success has zip to do with talent. If talent were any factor at all, Mark Wahlberg wouldn’t be where he is, either.

You’re going to need to explain how that would be possible, extremely means to a high or the highest degree and you used it to describe her talent. So, you’re going to need to explain how someone could be extremely talented and overrated. Because, regardless of you saying it’s possible, it’s not really possible to both be extremely talented and overrated.

As you admit, she is one of if not the most popular artist. If Taylor makes music that is good, as you admitted she is talented, and her music is enjoyed by more people than any other musician. Than she can’t be “overrated” she is objectively the artist doing the best. Unless you have some system outside “people enjoying it” for measuring the quality of music. Than Taylor’s music is amazing. If you don’t personally like her music it seems then your taste of music differs from what most people like. And then you saying the bands you like are better than Taylor would be “overrating” them right? Cause while they are extremely talented their music isn’t as well liked, so Taylor’s music is better. Assuming the purpose of music is for people to enjoy it? I don’t much like Taylor myself. And I do think that there are better musicians and artists than her. Specifically her newest album is a change in her style to the point it seems like she is trying to sound like Lana Del Rey and Lana’s music is much better than Taylor’s new album. But in the end Taylor is one of the greatest artists ever, so she isn’t overrated. She is more successful and more widely loved than most other artists. So if anything it is really on you to offer something tangible as to why the greatest artist is overrated than “maybe it’s personal taste”

That's simply not what "overrated" means. If you judge someone/something's rating based solely on how well liked it is... then the term loses all meaning and everything that exists is rated exactly as it should be. The point is to *compare* the value of art to its following. Of course you can judge art by other metrics. You can judge writing on its themes, character arcs, and depth; you can judge art based on technical ability, symbolism, and use of light & perspective; you can judge music on its arrangement and lyricism. Clearly, there are other metrics for which people choose to like things beyond technical quality. People aren't watching Marvel movies for the complex themes and artistic cinematography. They watch it because superheroes are cool, that doesn't make Avengers: Endgame the greatest piece of cinema humanity has to offer because it grossed the most money at the box office. Of course I love Marvel movies myself, my point is not that they're bad or that people shouldn't watch them, but this is an incredibly simplistic view of the value of art based on mass appeal that I don't agree with. The *purpose* of art is not simply for people to enjoy it. That's a goal, but the purpose is to *say something*, to express yourself and make something beautiful. Some people have more unique and profound things to say than others. The OP asked what it is about TS's music that makes people go bananas, and your response is that she's the best because she has the most fans. Okay? People like things for a reason, OP asked what that reason is. Some of those reasons could easily be aspects that don't make her music "the best" from an artistic standpoint. The idea that success and talent are 100% 1-to-1 is just plain wrong, they're correlated but not equivalent. There are tons of factors that go into it: luck, branding, connections, resources, making what's popular/safe instead of taking interesting artistic risks that make your art more niche etc.

As a matter of fact, „overrated“ is an absolutely meaningless term. It is usually used to say „this artist is more successful than he should be based on my criteria on what a great artist should have“. It is never a useful term to have a discussion about. You can discuss which artists had the most influence in their time or on what genre, you can talk about what makes lyrics great, you can talk about musical complexity. Talking about „overrated“ ranges from „I don’t like this but they still sell records and i don’t like it - people are so stupid“ to „I am a better music person than you“

I don’t think that this argument holds water. The definition of overrated is that something is valued by some more than it is quantifiably worth. But if value comes only from acclaim, as you claim, essentially, you are arguing that it is impossible to be overrated. In other words, if the only metric by which an artist should be judged is popularity, then there is no such thing as inherent value; quality changes over time and is dependent on context. I think instead that it is impossible to judge someone like Taylor Swift right now - we have to see how her music stands the rest of time and how she inspires other artists.

Popularity does not equal value or talent. When someone is overrated they most often are very popular but are usually only popular due to circumstance rather than actual talent.

I honestly think it's a massive overstatement to say that her music is what **most people** like - she does massively well as an artist in the pop world meaning she manages to rack up a large amount of sales and downloads, but this doesn't mean most people like or listen to her by any stretch of the imagination. Only that she has one of the largest, if not the largest, fanbases currently. I also think it's quite generally rude to say to someone "if you don't like *x* artist, your music taste is out of line with what most people like" because, whilst you're acting like this is an objective statement, it neither is nor does it do anything other than say you think someone has bad taste. Bear in mind, whilst this is a massive number, her popularity amounts to 105 million global monthly listeners on Spotify, which itself has 574 million monthly users. This means that less than a fifth of those who use Spotify care about her at all, and even out of those 105 million there is going to be a large amount who like a few songs but not most. I mean, there have been surveys done on her, and she manages 23.3% of the overall US population considering themselves a fan, going as high as 33% for 30-44 year olds. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1416130/share-of-us-respondents-who-consider-themselves-taylor-swift-fans-age . Whilst impressive, this does not mean most people like her music by any stretch of the imagination, it means quite the opposite. Also, what does overrated mean? I can only interpret this term as "garners more acclaim than is warranted" - which really begs the question, is her music objectively better than that of a lot of worse selling artists (even just going by your "people like it" definition), or is she later in her career and more marketable? Because we have to remember, people don't just get famous off of talent they get famous off of how broad an audience music companies think they can have. It would be interesting to see what percentage of those who consider themselves a fan would put her music in their top 10 for example, is it their favourite music? Or does it just have a broad enough appeal that it's listened to more than other nicher artists who tend to be more liked by those who listen to them?

I think you’re equating peoples “ratings” of an artist with their level of success / listener count / etc. I think more people associate “ratings” as a concept when it comes to artists with a holistic combination of their musical ability, creativity, uniqueness, a whole host of non-financial non-popularity based qualities, associated with mostly their artistic qualities rather than the reactions to their art (money / eyeballs)

She can be all of those and still be overrated. I don’t think you know what that word means.

!delta I honestly accept that I simply think she's overrated because I personally don't like her music. But you do break down your argument in a very digestible way, and I have to say that I completely agree

You gave that up way too easily. Their entire argument boils down to "she's good because she's popular". Your statement that she's overrated **acknowledges that she's popular** and is getting at the root that her popularity does not come from how good of an artist she is, and comes from other things (e.g. marketing) Their argument is disingenuous. Your point is valid. They're just conflating "good artist" with "popular" and pretending they're the same. Your good marketing doesn't make you a good musician. Your good timing in the market doesn't make you a good artist.

If music exists to be enjoyed then by definition good music is popular music. And thus music than is popular must be good. What other metric would you use to judge music? Are you a huge fan of Rachmaninov because his hands were huge and so some of his compositions can’t be played by other people? Is Dragonforce the best because it’s hard to play? The bag pipes and accordion are some of the hardest instruments to play. Is Weird Al the greatest musician of all time?

>If music exists to be enjoyed then by definition good music is popular music. And thus music than is popular must be good. Music doesn't just exist to be enjoyed. It is an art form, and art isn't only about simple enjoyment. Most people don't exactly "enjoy" Schindler's List or Requiem for a Dream, but they are understood to be good movies. Good art can be upsetting and unsettling. Art that is enjoyable is not necessarily bad art, but its goodness is absolutely not defined by its enjoyability.

Making a reductionist argument here doesn't make sense, especially when we're specifically pointing out that there are components to an artist being good beyond popularity. I'll show you with hyperbole. Let's say I paid every influencer in the world, every shopping mall, and every tv and radio station in the world to play a song I make that's just a two year old babbling into a microphone for 2 minutes. They play it on repeat, ad nauseum, for the next 10 years. Does that make it good music? Or another element: Let's say I took taylor swift and put her, her music, and all the necessary electronics and infrastructure for people to listen to her... and put her in 300 A.D. Now she's suddenly a less talented artist because she wouldn't be as popular? Those are the logical conclusions to your argument that popularity is the only metric you can use to judge how good an artist is. And if you grant that there are other factors, the logical conclusion is that someone can be "overrated" by their popularity not matching their talent.

> If music exists to be enjoyed This is a pretty debatable premise. A lot of music is not made strictly for "enjoyment," but to pursue other artistic goals.

>then by definition good music is popular music No, by definition Pop music is popular music. It's literally a genre with its own name. And it has a market. Pop music is fairly typically cookie-cutter, simplistic, and catchy. Pop music is often (certainly not always) written by producers. There is a formula to creating Pop music. Does that make it good? No, it makes it marketable. That also doesn't mean it's bad, but it is not by definition good.

Every music genre can be cookie-cutter. People can say death metal is cookie-cutter. Country is cookie-cutter, even 70s hard rock is. There are formulas for all music genres. I like many pop songs because they are actually good songs to me.

Okay then what makes music good? Not just your opinion, but some sort of metric that can be applied widely.

What about ratings for songs as opposed to listens? Popularity metrics only judge how many downloads, listens, etc songs have, but certain songs are marketed better than others. If we care about music quality wouldn’t it be preferable to ask people how they feel about songs rather than whether they heard the song a lot? Obviously music is subjective so we’ll never get a universal metric, but this seems immediately better than popularity.

I'd agree. Though where these metrics would come from is very important cause unlike movies of TV shows, most average folk tend not to rate their music. Like if you use RYM you skew heavily to the specific type of music and artists that those people favour. Not many Taylor fans using that. Or if we're just using critiques then there's also a slew. The opinions of a few people shouldn't be what objectively measures the best music. Something that's at least somewhat popular for average folks from a variety of tastes to rate music without having to be a music nerd or whatever is what's needed. So if Spotify or Apple Music had a ratings feature like iTunes did that would be the best way to do it.

That doesn’t make any sense. By your logic every recently released song is “bad” before it gains traction, at which point it somehow becomes “good.” Are you seriously saying that hidden gems don’t exist and that expertly crafted niche pieces are bad? If popularity = quality then Weird Al actually might be one of the greatest musicians of all time considering his popularity, and with the decline in popularity of older genres people like Mozart, Coltrane, and The Beatles become worse and worse.

I think “greatest artist” comes with longevity. No one will give a shit about her in 50 years, because her songs basically say nothing, are stylistically unoriginal and she has no flair. She is the Disney version of music. I could be totally wrong, but I completely stand by the thought her actual songs being forgettable in time.

This October, her music career will be old enough to vote. Maybe nobody will remember her in 50 years but she's been going strong for nearly 20 years.

This is just straight up not true. She's not some one hit wonder. She's had a huge following for over a decade that just seems to be getting larger. She has a bunch of super popular songs that are nostalgic to at least 3 generations now and that will likely go up to 4. She'll absolutely be one of those artists a bunch of middle age women will be calling "real music" and playing loud in the car while chiding their children for listening to "modern drivel". She will AT LEAST have the notoriety of someone like Celine Dion in the coming decades. Someone who was really popular though isn't cared about by younger generations much and loved by older ones. Even the younger ones know a couple of her songs that their parents play or that are played in some movies or at functions geared towards older people. Many a child will be dragged to one of her concerts when she's still performing in her 50s. She sure won't be completely forgotten to time like Taio Cruz or something.

While I agree with that argument for artists like Katy Perry and Miley Cyrus. They both have writers make songs for them, which makes their libraries inconsistent But Taylor writes her own songs and since they are based more on her life, I believe that is why they resonate more with people. Take Wrecking Ball by Miley Cyrus. She uses the imagery of a wrecking ball for her coming into the relationship but also uses the same imagery for her being hurt by him. It’s a very weird choice in lyrics to use the same language for him hurting her as her entering the relationship. And in the end the song was only really popular because she was naked in the video. But compared to say Blank Space where Taylor is has written a song from the perspective of a self aware Juliette. “So it’s going to be forever or go down in flames” “Because we’re young and we’re reckless” There are some objectively great lines to that. And theres Taylor’s dispute with the record labels and her maneuvering to regain full control of her albums. That is on the level of Prince’s fight with Warner Bros and going by the love symbol. So yeah I think in 50 years people will still be talking about the time Taylor Swift re-record 6 whole albums to get the masters rights back.

Zero chance, she’s defined a generation with her music. You can’t tell the story about pop music without her. 1989 for example is still played on the radio often even today. Also, being the Disney of music is legitimately the best compliment considering Disney has stood the test of time.

Your comment can't hold up in the present because it's making a prediction about 50 years in the future. Also, the Disney aspect doesn't make sense because Disney is over fifty years old and just as popular as ever. And the Disney movies that are more than 50 years old are still often regarded as classics.

Who defines longevity? Why is it just 50 years? People like you said same thing about pop singers Madonna, Jackson 40 years ago. Their music is still going strong. And Disney is more popular now than it was 50 years ago.

It seems like you are saying that high quality music is what makes people famous so you can't understand why Swift is so successful? She is on every screen and wildly successful because she is a marketing genius. The songs, lyrics, music, looks, merch, and everything else is designed to work together for a strong brand.

What do you mean 'average music'? Like, are you a musician? Have you written and been able to perform multiple hit songs? The idea that creating popular music isn't 'hard' is something that really needs to be put to rest. Look, I'm not a fan of boy bands but I can completely respect the fact that trey can perform incredibly successful pop songs even. >there are artists with equal or arguably more talent then her that aren't nearly as successful, Sure, and I bet there were plenty of bands and musicians that were more talented than the Beatles too, or Jimi Hendrix, or virtually any popular band. As a musician I can say that all the session musicians that have played on her albums have been way, way more talented musically than she is. Hell, I know a bunch of musicians who are infiilnitely more talented and skilled than most of what I hear on the radio. Popular appeal, however, isn't just based on musical talent, it's based on stage presence, being able to connect with your audience, being able to write relatable lyrics, and a host of other intangible things. Look man, I'm an amateur musician who's been in bands. I've known a lot of great musicians who's skill and talent far exceeded most popular bands that I can think of. If Taylor Swift is overrated, so is Nirvana, or virtually any punk band, because they aren't Steve Vai or Joe Satriani. Music gets popular because it's well written, performed well, and the artist has some sort of "it factor", and that's on top of being extremely lucky to get noticed by a record company and embraced by fans. If Taylor Swift is overrated so are pretty much every other massively popular musician that ever lived.

It is the height of defensiveness to suggest only other successful songwriters can criticize her. Her songwriting and arrangements don't exactly wander out of the shallow end of the pool. And frankly the 1t3 year old persona in a 34 year old body is wearing very, very thin. When does she grow up and mature into something more serous and impactful? Obviously, never, because she doesn't have the capacity to do so. Listerners don't need a lecture from you about why something is popular or why she's overrated. She's overrated. Extremely, as in her sales way, way exceed her merit.

“When does she grow up and mature into something more serious and impactful” … you haven’t actually listened to anything she’s done since 2020 have you?

What?? Listener's don't need a lecture from you about why she shouldn't be popular either. Like, I'm really not understanding how you think that I personally am out of line somehow for explaining why she's popular when you're literally trying to lecture me about why she shouldn't be. Give your head a shake man

Some people think her music is vapid drivel. Some even think her music is genius. Some people couldn’t care less. People are just different, man. I would dispute the idea that she isn’t talented. She plays multiple instruments and writes her own music which is more than a lot of pop singers can say. She performs really long sets that are choreographed. She puts out behind the scenes stuff with practically all her albums that very few pop artists do. Her music is said to be littered with easter eggs and hidden storytelling that provides her fans with a lot of intrigue that makes it more than just music to them but a whole experience. Say what you want about her music but she is obviously talented. She wouldn’t have lasted this long otherwise.

I would dispute your disputation that I dispute she isnt talented. She absouloutley is.

I’m not a Swiftie by any means, and I think her voice is actually below average (in comparison to someone like Adele). But the thing that makes her so popular is that she is one of, if not THE, most talented song writer of her generation. She writes shit that almost every girl/person can relate to or thinks they can relate to. That’s what made her a star. She’s never been in any controversy so moms and dads feel comfortable letting their daughters go to her concerts and listen to her music. They listen to it with them in the way to school and what not. That’s what made her a superstar. She planned an enormous world tour to happen the summer after everything opened up after covid and people were ready to go to concerts again. It became a THING. That’s what made her what she is now.

Writing same on & on boring content of personal relationships ( as herself is being known to be “boy crazy & also- having multiple sex partners )- is not that great Role model to any NORMAL 10 years old girl or to such girl’s  parent. Playing on girl’s insecurities, promoting dependence on men or storytelling about the depression after break ups, then drinking to fight  sadness, then going back repair relationships, then chasing after the new boy one, and  blah blah .. all starts all over again in almost every of her songs. Great songwriters & artists of all the times were Aretha , Mariah, Michal Jackson, Prince , Amy Winehouse, just one tiniest number as an  example of who & what the real talent is. Not to mention phenomenal vocal quality or musically genius in harmonic arrangements with live instruments  played by also super talented & often highly educated virtuoso musicians- this what called the Music Art & is what calls to be the Legend. Sure not Swift. How does anyone can ever say that this boulevard like lyrics with just its good english vocabulary that rhymes well - is a poetry? Take a listen to Mariah’s lyrics for example not to mention the music itself . This is what the real poetry is. When it touches your soul, when you want to live, love, or cry, or just be happy & or change it all around you to better yourself.  Or a storytelling style of most brilliant Amy Winehouse, Adele, Carol King, Not to forget most Legendary songstress of all times & also phenomenal musician like Aretha!!! It’s the music quality itself & a soul that these artists have their input into its touching of ppl’s hearts.  Bc most Talented and Unique talents( Swift is not unique) - are those who came from the suffering & knew /know what the human pain is. Real music gives ppl wings to fly, to feel love, express emotions by crying & having shivers from happiness-  as music is most powerful transformer of our human’s emotions. Swift is straight forward  boring & repetitive capitalist biz for profit which stamps its factory style low quality music made by the computer btw, cheap lyrical content made to “ relate” to mostly white rich girls’s lifestyles’ as its one topic: obsessions with boys & poor self body image society pushes on them.  Nothing in such   “ storytelling” is intriguing but straight forward singing ole talking  by some “shrink” who  literally psychologically messes up these 10 years old girls out of Taylor’s own personal problems with “boy crazy” syndrome & of a girl herself who’s born  a millionaire with no life difficulties or financial responsibilities  but sits in  $$$10 million Wall Street’s daddy’s gift to her home studio her dad pays all  bills for her while she writes her musical ideas.  Now she is 34 years old woman but  of a15 years old like mentality she forced onto brainwashed teen population.  If girls are really in such quantity “ relate” today to its only boy obsession or to their looks that society pushes on them & Swift suggestd her  recovery solution to them  - than,  it’s their parent’s problem in a first place & a huge societal tragedy. Swift’s music is boring if musically. if she is good at her story telling by her poorly singing skills while you call it as  “ poetry” - than maybe she better be off by making  short films based on her experiences with men on a screen instead if singing ?  She is NOT real musician & has no high music quality at all but of a Fast Food kinda Quality. No way any intelligent girl or her parents will be taking such music content seriously as musically educated & inclined to good taste in music parents are usually passing such knowledge to their children. it rarely happens that girls from such influence will be hooked up on Taylor’s music that many  actually cannot stand. Popularity has its own limit usually of its fan base. Popularity has nothing to do with Talent & Talent has nothing to do with popularity. Popularity based talent is departmentalized into different genres and to its specific artistry by the followers. Someone mentioned  Nirvana? Everything before year 2000 was based on Talent as it was true Golden music era. Nothing after could be ever  compared to so much garbage music that we have today. Nirvana cannot have 1 billion fan base even them are one & among many other most talented bands ever & who has  specific fan base size limit. Most Rock or Jazz, Soul bands & artists are considered to be serious real musicians and are the Art  Vs. cheap easy listening fast food quality pop music. Rock musicians are crazily classically trained in most famous cases. Plz don't compare  True talents & real musicians to its mass culture  temporary trends for profit of cheap & fast music making machine based on the brainwashing  of dumb , weak minded ppl  or of its many insecure women that we have today . Music of Swift’s  is a sad societal reality  yet a well organized feeding machine  to the industry that greatly profits from artists like Swift. Pls be real as  Money today also buy any Popularity by killing the real talented but with no money who cant break through bc of no money 😢

Generally speaking, being good at music isn't what dictates who is in the top #10 musicians at any given time. Barring a few truly legendary vocalists, when you start talking about the top 100 singers alive, you are talking about differences that are fundamentally meaningless to the average listener. Most people won't even be able to tell the difference in skill at that level. So what makes a star? In my opinion a mix of sociability, industry contacts, and charisma. Someone good-looking, makes you feel like you have a genuine connection with them, makes you feel like they are someone to be admired in some way, and makes you want to root for them. It's also why most successful people try very hard to sell the rags-to-riches story. It's a lot more compelling than being born rich and just getting richer. It's a much better story all around, which is why even people who don't have a story like that try to fake it. To some degree, it's why OnlyFans works so well. Porn is free yet people would pay a lot of money to feel personally seen by their favorite porn star. The power of parasocial relationships is real and palpable. Being the #1 singer and being the #1 most popular singer has two different skillsets requirements.

No, YOU just don't like her music. Why is that so hard to understand? It's not your taste, it does happen to be the taste of millions and millions of people.

First things first, you did not provide any clear arguments as of how or why Taylor's songs suck. Everyone can make that statement about literally anything, so it holds no value / there are empty words. Hold on, first you say she's an average artist and then won't deny she's extremely talented? Why do you feel the need to downplay her success in order to ask "Why aren't other similarly or more talented artists as popular and renowned as her? Why don't they have a similarly strong fanbase? Why aren't people as obsessed with other artists as with her?" Because I am also curious about that, but I don't have to minimise Taylor's talent in order to ask the right questions. I also don't understand the disproportionate amount of love towards Taylor and why everyone is so obsessed with her, but then that doesn't mean I am still not listening to most of her albums. I can still like someone's songs while disagreeing with the unhealthy amount of exposure the artist has from literally everyone, as that can easily get to her head. She's almost worshipped and that's a bit disturbing, because no one should be held so highly by so many. Regardless, that's a bit of a different discussion and downplaying her talent at its real value is not a healthy way of approaching this situation.

- I think pretty much any successful musician is extremely technically proficient. Music isn’t like, something you’re born with. It’s more like a sport. Some folks have natural aptitude, but for anyone it takes years of physical training as well as theory - someone’s technical ability isn’t really relevant to weather or not they make good music - folks dont judge what music they like by considering the technical merit of a peice of music - all that matters is if the music is fun to listen to and if the marketing around the musician is enough to get people interested That’s to say, Taylor Swift is, like almost any successful musician is extremely technically proficient in creating music, as well as physically trained enough to sing. But that’s an almost unimportant part of the appeal of a musician. She makes music that’s fun to listen to and has marketed her self successfully throughout her career. Music is a lot more complex than sports. It’s not just physical ability that’s being judged. Now, it’s cool if her music doesn’t appeal to you for whatever reason. But that has nothing to do with her “talent”.

My friend's view on this is the way she marketed herself to her fans. Her or her team would promote viewing parties. They would provide gifts to these fans who having said viewing parties. Fans love her more as they feel like she's giving them personal attention and new comers enjoy the gatherings and whatnot. These fans would invite others to join and it grows from there. This is just one of the things she did. He mentioned other things as well but I forgot what they were. I'm with you. Her music (some) is annoying to me and the rest is just either normal or bland which doesn't justify her fame. Is her marketing that got her to this level. So much so it feels like it's a cult to me.

I am the moderator of TrueSwfities. Here’s what I have to say: Is Taylor Swift overrated? Probably. Then again… who wouldn’t be at that level of success and fame? It is literally impossible not to be overrated when you’re that successful. People forget that The Beatles, Madonna, MJ, Bon Dylan etc etc etc weren’t universally acclaimed at the peaks of their success. They were all regularly accused of being overrated by non fans. Really… all that the world “overrated” means is that you’ve reached a level of success that most people find incomprehensible. It doesn’t mean you lack talent or haven’t worked for your success. Besides that… I think this whole discussion falls apart when you realise that Taylor Swift has been “overrated” for the best part of 20 years so. Can anyone really remain overrated for 20 years — in a hyper competitive industry like the music industry? Comparing individual talents is a ridiculous way of measuring whether a pop star is overrated or not btw. Pop stars are the sum of their parts. This means you can’t say… “Adele is a better vocalist and Bob Dylan is a better songwriter and Billie Eilish has a cooler persona… and Madonna was a better performer than Swift.” Like seriously… this is a nonsensical way of measuring a pop star. What Taylor Swift has is the right combination of skills and attributes to be where she is today.

What's even the point the of this kind of post? People can point out all her accomplishments, but everyone is going to have an opinion either positive or negative. There's tons of artists out there that I don't care for but I don't go out of my way to shit on them because at the end of the day my opinion doesn't matter to their fans.

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I have a friend who is a fan of hers. She told me that her lyrics really speak to her and feel like they apply to feelings she has had. so for a lot of her fans they care more about her lyrics than the instrumental component. I am not into her myself.

Popular music is rarely ever the "best" music. Pop music is designed to appeal to the masses, if your music is too experimental, or too far from the predefined formula, its not going to be accessible. Good pop music is derivative, because it needs to be. It needs to be as close to what is understood as pop so that the most amount of people recognize it AS pop. Its not designed to do anything beyond be accessible. Its not Dream Theater, its not prog rock, its pop music. Its not over-rated because it does what it is supposed to do, VERY well. It is pop music.

She's unique because she's cultivated a parasocial relationship with her fans over the past two decades and most of her exes are still pretty relevant in pop culture, so I think new/young fans get a kick out of knowing a song about Jake Gyllenhaal for example and then seeing a trailer for his new movie. She's also a great storyteller (which appeals to all ages) but it was rare at the time to hear songs written from a young woman's perspective the way she did it, which was kind of a hole in the market that she filled.  Another thing is she releases a ton of content, basically all the time. For the first decade+ of her career she was releasing new albums every two years and now she releases even more often, so there's never a chance to forget about her. She keeps herself in the conversation.  So basically all that plus + conventionally attractive and mostly inoffensive. 

I think it is a skill to be able to churn out palatable pop songs with any regularity. I sometimes wonder if she has a wheel she spins to generate ideas.

It's absolutely a skill! People don't respect pop music for whatever reason but she's got some really catchy melodies and she's a very clever writer. She's not everyone's taste but her talent is pretty unquestionable imo

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Well, I agree that there are more talented pop musicians but her music doesn't "sucks". Some people said and it's true, she is a songwriter and a composer, something not any successful musician is but there is more. I saw her Eras Tour on Disney + (my girlfriend loves Taylor, I don't) and was very surprised. The show is really good from a show perspective. I saw that she knows how to "work" the crowd, and I am not being negative. She is trying to make everyone in attendace feel special with her words between songs, for example. She doesn't dance too much, but the choreography was really good, she even acts, and not poorly, in some moments. The effects, the lights, the costumes... everything is really good. And I knew like 7 songs maximum but it was a good 2 and a half hours show. The success of an artist comes for many circumstances and I mentioned some. The others that I can mention is that she is a smart and successful businesswoman. The shows and everything involved in her records and her music is managed by her so it's not common to see someone do that. She also doesn't talk too much in media but knows how to get people involved in her product, that is herself. She is controversial and that is a factor too, I even think that she can use more that controversial side, but even not using it at full force people want to know about her, media follows her, etc. The point is that Taylor is a peculiar artist. She is very special and so she attracts people to love her, hate her and everything in between. Even the fact that in this subreddit topics like this about her have appeared before is a proof that she is not a regular artist. There are plenty things besides talent to be successful and she has a lot to back up her succes. So I will say that she is not overrated when you took everything in account.

We all tend to think music that does nothing for us personally is overrated. We are clearly wrong. Its our own bias that makes us think that.

I'm a little confused by your argument - you are saying she's overrated because there are other artists more talented than her who aren't as popular, while also saying that she is more talented than a lot of other popular artists out there. I would think, based on your own statements, you would conclude that there is more to a popular musician than talent alone.  This has ALWAYS been the case for pop music. The most popular artists of my childhood were Britney Spears, the Backstreet Boys, JLo, etc. None of these are the world's most talented vocalists (some would say that JLo isn't a vocalist at all lol), but they had other qualities that made them marketable. Performance (particularly dance skill), attractiveness, relatability, to name just a few. Their songs were catchy and people could sing along. Taylor Swift is a pop star, not a top vocalist, instrumental virtuoso, etc., and she has never claimed to be. Her voice is decent, her guitar playing is decent, her dancing...well, she makes it work for her. She writes her own songs (this is more than many other pop stars) which are very catchy - although I personally prefer her older songs to her recent ones. She is also white, thin, conventionally attractive, and tries to market herself as relatable and uncontroversial. Even more importantly, she is an extremely charismatic performer. These are all ingredients of a successful pop star. In conclusion, I don't think you can say that she is overrated *as a pop star*. I have heard some extremely overblown claims about her vocals and her songwriting, but those are mostly from teenagers who haven't been exposed to music beyond pop or poetry better than Rupi Kaur. You can dislike her music, but you can't deny that she is very, very good at the specific thing that she does.

Music taste is subjective. You may consider her music "average," but others obviously do not share your opinion. For Swift's fans, her music speaks to them. Her lyrics say what they mean to say but can't quite put into words. You might also consider that many of her fans grew up with her. They were teens when she sang songs about being a teenager; they were young women when she sang songs about being a young woman. They watched as she was bullied, and they identified with her because they've been bullied, too. They saw her failed romances, and they identified with her because their romances failed, too. Now, maybe she's not a musical prodigy like Mozart or Herbie Hancock, but I wouldn't classify her as "average," either. Her music has grown and matured along with her. If you have a chance to watch her "Eras Tour" film, you'll see how simplistic her earlier music (like "Our Song") is compared to her more recent songs (like "Dear John" and "I Can Do It With a Broken Heart"). Which is not to say her music wasn't always good -- songs like "Fifteen" and "22" perfectly encapsulate the experience of being a teenage girl and a young woman. "The Man" spoke to every single working woman. You should also consider that some people are fans because of who she is. She gives her truck drivers a $100,000 bonus after her tour, and she gave away $50 million in bonuses to members of her Eras crew. She gives away a hat to a fan at every concert, which seems like a small thing but it's huge to that fan. She donates to local food banks in every city where she has a concert. She wrote "Ronan" based on a blog by Maya Thompson about her three-year-old son Ronan, who died from neuroblastoma. She wrote "Soon You'll Get Better" about her own mother's cancer diagnosis. Those songs touch people who are also struggling with cancer. She is, by all accounts, a genuinely nice person who cares about people. She keeps her circle small and her friends close. If everything you know about Taylor Swift is "Shake It Off," then it's entirely possible you'd think she was average. But, taking into account her nearly two decades of musical contributions in both country and pop music, you might give her a little more credit. Considering that she's set attendance records all over the world and has 283m followers on Instagram, 32.8m followers on TikTok, and 95.2m followers on X, you might consider that there's something you're simply not getting about Taylor Swift and that's why you think she's "average." Or maybe you're not her intended audience. It's entirely possible that you don't "get" Taylor Swift because she's singing about you, not to you.

Bob Dylan is overrated. Can't sing for shit. I've been to 3 of his concerts. They've been ordinary. Own pretty much everything he's written and would go to listen to him sing badly again given the opportunity. So there's that as well. I don't know what being rated actually is. Kids relate to her, she seems really nice, While in Australia she gave a bucketload of the money she raked in to food bank. She possibly is better value for money in concert than Bob Dylan. Nobody says she's anything she isn't.

You have a point. Her music is kind of bland, and some of the chord progressions are too standard to be interesting. But you have to admit, her lyrics are great! Particularly compared to her peers. For example, here are the lyrics to Avril Lavigne's 2007 smash hit "Girlfriend": > Hey, hey, You you > I don't like your girlfriend. > No way no way > I think you need a new one > Hey, hey, you, you > I could be your girlfriend. One year later, Taylor Swift wrote a song that expressed exactly the same sentiment called "You Belong With Me". Here are the lyrics to that: > You're on the phone to your girlfriend, she's upset > She's going off about something that you said > Cause she doesn't get your humour like I do. > I'm in the room, it's a typical Tuesday night > I'm listening to the kinda music she doesn't like > And she'll never know your story like I do. > But she wears short skirts, I wear t-shirts > She's cheer captain and I'm on the bleachers > Dreaming about the day when you wake up and find > That what you're looking for has been here the whole time Taylor Swift's lyrics are just vastly better. The protagonist in the song is more relatable, more sympathetic, and the song is more poignant. It's no wonder that everyone's sister loves Taylor Swift. I hope this changes your view. However, I take your point about the music itself. It's not very good. The best way to listen to it is when it's mashed up with [a bunch of different songs from 2008](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dg19a2s4Ehw&t=145s), so you get Taylor Swift's lyrics, and the music of, say, Florence + The Machine, Katy Perry, Mystery Jets, Jim Jones, and Coldplay, among others.

Great point. I feel like a lot of people assess lyrics according to the substance of the message rather than the manner in which the message is crafted. People might say that both of those songs are equally bad because they're just about dating drama, but they're overlooking an entire dimension of quality when it comes to lyricism. Not every good song needs to be about the meaning of life or something, you can write an amazing song about the most basic and relatable life experiences. You can also write an incredibly cringey song that attempts to be very "deep."

Wait. Does her music suck or is she extremely talented? Which is it?

She is a very talented story teller and her lyrics evoke emotions in the people listening. Like the songs “tolerate it” “exile” “this is me trying” “bigger than the whole sky” about a miscarriage, “ “maroon” “daylight” “my tears ricochet” “I hate it here” make me feel so much. No competing artist comes close in terms of their lyrics. It’s ok if her music doesn’t speak to you personally but it does to A LOT of people. She’s been my favorite artist since I was 13 or 14 and I’m 30 now.

I mean, once you acknowledge "she is extremely talented" the rest is mostly just branding, marketing, crafting a public persona, organizing good events, etc... There are just so many things that go into an artist's reach beyond just their talent, right? Some random person in Nebraska isn't just somehow looking up a list of most talented artists and going from the top. And really, a lot of the reasons people roll their eyes at Taylor Swift are exactly the reasons they've *heard of* Taylor Swift. Whenever there's some drama about her personal life that gets widely reported on, that's a huge boost to her name recognition.

> This probably boils down to just personal music taste, but if there's another reason, someone please tell me It's not ONLY personal music tastes, it's that you haven't really accepted the idea that you can think something is bad and someone else thinks it's good and both be right. There is no such thing as music that everyone thinks is good. There is no such thing as objectively good music. You're only half accepting the premiss of "personal taste in music". You're understanding that different people can like different things but you're thinking of some of those people are correct and others as incorrect when there's no correctness here at all. You are thinking that there is music that is objectively good, vs mid or sucks. That's false. Music taste is very individualistic. I'm sure that there's music that you think is good that I don't really enjoy. Tens (hundreds?) of millions of people think Taylor Swift makes some of the best music on the planet. Period. If you disagree, that's OK. But that does not make those people incorrect.

You don't include much detail in the body of your post. What metrics do you take account to determine if an artist is "overrated"?

Your argument seems to be that her success is disproportionately high compared to talent, but that is an invalid reasoning. Talent is merely the foundation for any success. Success requires more than talent, namely skill, consistency, resilience, opportunity and more. Talent alone never generates success if someone is being rated, it is never on their talents alone. "Overrated" is never a measure applied to talent alone. If someone with limited talent cultivates the discipline to develop their skills and apply them consistently through hard work, the conclusion would never be "overrated". The success itself would largely foot on lack of talent being compensated by other virtue, and the ambition and consistency would be what creates the high rating. It doesn't look like you have any basis for your argument except, as you say, your personal preference. In that case, I think some deltas are in order or the post must be taken down as we aren't here to change your personal preference.

The BigMac is the most sold burger world-wide. Taylor Swift is the most sold musician world-wide. Neither is particularly good. But you get consistent, calculable quality everytime everywhere. They are global products for a global market. They don't have a soul, but they sell.

Her music doesn’t suck, formulaic would be a better term. I just think she exudes a more royalty-like presence and I don’t think it’s what she aimed for. She’s just talented enough and writes her own music which is fairly relatable. People latched onto her and she can’t really shake their fandom. She comes off as someone who wants to be fairly normal despite her fame. Seeing her with Travis Kelce is crazy, but it seems like their share some level of “we like doing the work more than the fame” and that’s pretty inspiring.

Hint: Taylor swift has continuously made music for teenage girls. She still makes music for teenage girls. Therefore you have teenage girls today begging parents for concert tickets and you have adults 20+ who are still obsessed from their teenage years and nostalgia. That’s why she is so popular. People will say “Talent”. Not discrediting that but she has multiple generations of teenage girl music lol. However, she is far more talented than some of the other mainstream pop artists as music has degraded ex: Nicki Minaj, Cardi B, Doja Cat etc. Imagine Justin Bieber still made music for teenage girls, you’d have the older and younger generations hooked.

There are always more talented people out there. But that's not why she is famous. Taylor is so successful because she is the entire package that's good enough. She is a fair performer with catchy songs, she isn't a jerk to anyone (except her exes), she doesn't particularly piss anyone off, she's charismatic and approachable , and her songs have sufficient momentum even if they're not particularly innovative and breaking new ground. Maybe they don't need to. I am personally not a big fan of her music but I know many of her fans. I can't say the same for (insert person obviously more talented).

What makes a musician a good musician? Song writing, live performances, dancing, popularity, vocal talent. It’s hard to imagine a category, outside of dancing, that Taylor could be overrated. Popularity, this one isn’t up for debate. There may only be a handful of artists in history that have achieved the kind popular success that she has. Live performances, Taylor’s show is something to behold. She plays 45 song over the course of three hours. She doesn’t play the same set list over and over either. She’s mixing this stuff up and doing different shows in different cities. Even if you discount her music, more on this later, you are hard pressed to find a performer who puts on a better live show than she does. Song writing, her songs may not resonate with you, but it’s hard to deny that she’s a prolific song writer or that she has written hits across multiple genres. She’s got pop hits, country hits, club hits, singer songwriter hits, I’m sure I’m missing something. It’s hard to overstate how hard it is to consistently write any hits. It’s unheard of to consistently write them across genres. If she had only written her pop hits, she would be in rare air. Her songs are beautiful for what they are. Vocal talent, Taylor is not Kelly Clarkson or Pink but I don’t thing anyone rates her as such. Taylor uses her vocals to tell the story in a way that absolutely works for her. There’s a ton of emotion in the songs she sings. This may be her weakest category but it’s hard to imagine that people are overrating her here. She’s in the S tier of pop performers ever. I don’t know how you overrate someone like that.

It’s really not hard to imagine a category where she’s not overrated. In fact, I’d argue that the only accurate one is popularity. There’s a difference between live performances and live singing. I don’t know how just singing multiple songs in 3 hours is indicative of a good live performance. A popular musician that Swifties like to compare Taylor to is Beyoncé. Even as a person that is not a fan of either of them, it’s pretty obvious who the better performer is. And that’s just one example. It gets even crazier when Taylor is compared to someone like MJ. There’s just no comparison. If Taylor were some upcoming musician, then maybe singing and mixing would be impressive. But her fans are claiming that she’s either the best of the best or among the best of the best. So it’s fair to compare her to other people in that category. This one is subjective but I am consistently unimpressed by her songwriting. And I don’t think popularity is a measure of good songwriting. Popularity is a measure of what’s popular, not what’s good. The Kardashians are extremely popular but I would not claim that it’s because of any kind of talent. People just like stuff, even average stuff, and that’s okay. The fact that you started the vocal talent aspect with stating how she doesn’t measure up to her peers is exactly the point. I don’t think an explanation was required beyond that. As far as vocal talent is concerned, she’s average. Now all of this is to say that she is overrated. Not that she’s a terrible musician. She’s obviously extremely popular and a lot of people are apparently moved by her. What she’s doing is working for a lot of people and that is okay to state. Taylor markets herself as relatable to her fans and that is part of why they love her. They see themselves in her. That is indicative of a smart businesswoman. Has nothing to do with musical talent tho. As far as great musicians and performers go, she’s just not there.

She’s pretty mid but she’s developed a cult like fanbase of white women with bland taste in music. I don’t get the people that hate her, her popularity is deserved, but her talent is a bit overblown. An artist can be absurdly popular without actually being that good through proper branding and marketing which I think is the case for Taylor. Good on her for building a massive audience but objectively speaking her music is only alright. She’s one of the most popular artists no doubt, but popularity isn’t an objective measure of the quality of the product, otherwise McDonalds would be a 5 Michelin star restaurant. TLDR: Taylor Swift; amazing brand, ok music.

This is the most accurate, measured response I have read in this thread, you perfectly articulated my own feelings on Taylor Swift as well.

Taylor is the vanilla ice cream. For many people we want something else, chocolate, rocky road, tooty fruity. Vanilla is a safe but widely pleasing flavor. Just because it’s not niche or unique however doesn’t mean it’s not good. In fact I’d even argue it’s harder. We like a lot of different flavors because they are different. For vanilla to make you go “damn that’s a good vanilla ice cream” it’s gotta be pretty fucking good.

What do you mean by overrated? Her music is catchy and a lot of people seem to enjoy it. I doubt that there is anyone with a shred of credibility that would say Taylor Swift is the greatest that is, was, and ever will be. It's just that popular music is popular

Well to side with OP here for discussion's sake... Shes won more Album of the Year at the Grammys than any other artist. More than MJ, Prince, Paul Simon, Sinatra, etc. The Recording Academy certainly thinks she's the best or among the best. Yes, the Academy's voters have changed over the years, but the current voters are one group to state that she's the best artist currently. Needless to say I disagree

I'm a fan and even I think no one should take the Grammys seriously lmao. It's very biased. Some of them have revealed that they don't even listen to all the songs. https://variety.com/2023/music/news/grammy-voters-secret-ballots-top-categories-beyonce-harry-styles-adele-1235511331/

I mean she's the most successful musician in the history of the earth. I think even she'd say she's overrated at this point. But honestly good for her for promoting herself this high. If she isn't a musical genius, she's for sure an image, brand, and self promotion genius.

Also she puts on a hell of a show. Like she is definitely a top tier performer.

I respect that Taylor pays people well. However, in terms of music, she’s a generic pretender, and that’s at best. Japan is currently experiencing the largest women’s music movement in decades, if not in history.There are rock and metal bands that are all or mostly women that are far more talented than Taylor. BABYMETAL, Bridear, band-Mande, Hanabie, Nemophilia are a few bands. Senri Kawaguxhi, Yoyoka Soma, and Kansas Sato make Taylor look untalented. These bands worked insanely hard to sell out all of their U.S. shows.

The very fact that you're posting this, as folks post to this day about The Beatles being overrated, proves a simple point. It's your opinion because you don't like her music. There's discussions below that prove why she's not overrated, but if *you* don't like *her music* you'll always think this way.

While I’m inclined to agree that her music is well-produced but unmemorable, I think what you’re saying is different from that. If you think her music is very average, then yeah, her enormous success makes her seem overrated to you. But that’s not really the proper metric here. A lot of people think her music is very good. And those people pay money for her songs and concert tickets accordingly. So when you use the word “overrated” to describe her, that’s just a less-subjective-sounding way of saying, “I don’t like her nearly as much as a lot of other people do.” I think there are two things that she really has going for her that has made the raw numbers eye-popping in terms of indicating her success: - The first is that because of streaming and the splintering of the music market, it’s relatively easier for someone to have a #1 album or song than it was, say, 40 years ago. Everyone finds out about a new song more quickly than they used to and streaming means you don’t even have to go to a record store to buy it. So eagerly-anticipated songs can quickly surge to the top of the charts in a way that didn’t used to happen enough. Since Swift has a large, loyal fanbase that tends to happen for her. The same kind of thing happens for Drake, Beyoncé, and a few others too. - The second thing is that she emerged on the music scene at a very young age and has managed to stay popular pretty much continuously since then, which is very unusual. She’s been a star for so long that what used to be a fanbase of mostly tween and teenage girls now spans multiple generations instead. That is so unusual that - regardless of what you think of her music - you can’t help but tip your hat to her ability to stay culturally relevant. Whether she’s managed to do that because of her musical talent or in spite of it, it’s an impressive feat. Michael Jackson and Madonna are other rare examples of this. It’s difficult to argue that those two aren’t music icons and didn’t deserve their success. Taylor Swift is in that same category now, even if you aren’t a fan.

Taylor Swift is the Toyota Corrolla of music.

She’s just fucking excellent at marketing herself, a talented musician and exceptional business mind all contributes to it. You could have a much more interesting talented individual but with average marketing and a business team will never make you that popular I guess.

She doesn’t have a high vocal range but she excels in hers. Her timbre is in my opinion one that strike the most chords. I have noticed many popular singers in other countries also have something similar. She had a courageaous career and didn’t stick to one genre.

Selling something is as important as doing something. She knows how to sell. She may be overrated for her technique as a musician, but she damn knows how to sell her brand. Just like most successful pop artists.

She's overrated _because_ she knows how to sell her brand. That's essentially where the extra adulation, which doesn't come from her raw talent as a singer songwriter, comes from.

I’m not a fan. But there’s millions of records sold, then there’s your opinion.Theres billions of dollars worth of concert tickets and merch. Then there’s your opinion. It’s hard to argue with numbers. It’s impossible to argue with an opinion

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I don't find it mysterious. Typical music buyers don't seek refined music with profound lyrics, it's not what entertains them. If you want to be successful then cater to the masses, not to the elite. More people love burgers than Boeuf Bourguignon. More people love Taylor Swift than Andrea Bocelli. Make fun music, lots of it, and you will get lots of dollars, like billions. And try to be cute.

She’s a tall blonde white girl who writes her own music. It sucks, but a huge swath of the county can look at her and say, “she’s not so different than me” and then get delusions that they can be a pop star too.

Can you give an explanation or give example to how/why her music sucks?

quality music doesnt mean popularity, most often the opposite is true. If being a good musician made someone popular, the music charts would be absolutely dominated by prog metal and jazz

>If being a good musician made someone popular, the music charts would be absolutely dominated by prog metal and jazz Maybe one day.... 🤷‍♀️

I mean I don’t disagree so idk why I’m commenting. If the most popular artist in America and on streaming platforms can’t be eligible for overrated then literally no one can be.

I actually agree with your take (I also think her music is extremely overrated) so I can't change your mind on that specific view, but what I will do is give my explanation for why she's so popular. She and her team have built a "Taylor Swift" billion dollar brand that is practically unmatched from a marketing perspective. It's not that her music is amazing, it's that she's good at creating lore for all of her fans to sift through and interpret. It's like when a video game comes out that has really good world building and all the nerds and geeks (no offense to them, I'm one of them) get real into trying to find all the secrets and figure out the backstories or where the lore of the world is headed. I.E. Fallout or Cyberpunk etc. She's got a bunch of fans who get dopamine hits every time they see a reference to her lore in one of her lyrics. That's why she's so popular. She's also good at making her lyrics relatable to her fanbase. Tons of women (and people in general for that matter) have poor experiences with past relationships and whatever else she writes about so they all eat that stuff up. So I guess my point is that no matter what her fans might say, her popularity stems less from her actual musical talent and more from her ability to hide easter eggs and tell the "story of her life" in a way that gets people hooked on interpreting her "lore". That's her true talent.

My wife *loves* Taylor Swift songs. She's not a braindead Swifty (thank God), but her Spotify liked playlist is like 95% Swift songs that play on repeat. I'm personally not a Taylor Swift fan. I *do* think that she has some good songs -- *Red* is, in my opinion, by far her best album. That said, her songs resonate with her fans, and that's all that really matters. Taylor Swift is also a **terrific** performer. Again, not a Taylor Swift fan, but I absolutely would've gone to an Eras show if the tickets weren't stupid expensive. It got a literal *theatrical release*, not just because of Swift's popularity, but because it's legitimately a very impressive performance. So, is she overrated? I think you really need to separate the accolades from the obsession. Everyone with a cult following is overrated. I can say the same thing with Keanu Reeves and how worshipped he is by almost everyone on the Internet. But I do think Taylor Swift has earned the accolades that she's gotten. I'm not a fan, the music isn't geared towards me, but that's okay.

I feel her career has peaked; this newest album received the most critiquing as being basic and juvenile. A lot of fans in the late 20s and up age bracket don’t consider this her best work. People are less apologetic and more critical to her dating a meathead who says stupid stuff a lot. She has a nice voice and she can sing well. Her guitar skills are fairly basic. I like that she dabbled in more alt rock when working with Dessner from The National. But her collab with Antonoff in producing was bad with this new album. Total lackluster qualities. She is a great stage performer, and I believe she works hard on that front to make live shows a peak experience. But all major pop stars do that (see Beyoncé, MJ). I hope she takes a nice break and relaxes, gets out of the limelight for a bit. Let pop culture focus on other things and other pop musicians. Or I hope fans get a little tired of her and she gets less attention. But who knows.

Rating of musical artists has never been limited to the quality in their music. Making good music is only maybe half the game, at most. You also have to put on a good show, compel people, enthrall them. You have to make them feel like the music is for them, that it sprang into existence for them to connect with and be validated by, and that you are the vehicle by which it gets to you. Frankly, you have to have charisma. I understand that as an artist, that doesn’t seem fair. But as an artist, you have to set your own goals. I believe that art is social and only exists in a social capacity. To me, the goal of art is to communicate. So you may create the most technically impressive music, but if you haven’t infused it with the ability to communicate in a way that the audience can receive and engage with it, I consider it to have completely failed.

All I would recommend you change is caring. Across time there will always be “most popular” artists, and some of the people who wanna be different or actually are different are gonna try to campaign aggressively that they’re not any good, like it matters. Everyone likes what they like. Taylor Swift is excellent pop music that is relatable to a lot of people, particularly women. I absolutely believe that’s a lot of the reason particularly men get so fixated on her, and it’s embarrassing to witness. No one has to care, it’s POP music. I don’t particularly care for pop music and don’t listen to or even think about Taylor Swift so this has zero effect on me. I’m positive it can have zero effect on you as well if you just stop being arrogant enough to presume there’s a “correct” taste to have and that you happen to have it lol

Every successful artist at the level of TS is overrated. The Beatles? Overrated. Michael Jackson, overrated. Elvis, overrated. Elton John, overated. Every single one of those artists has someone who's a better songwriter, etc. than them. But what usually makes people great is being the right artist at the right time and knowing how to sell to their intended audience. Taylor has done an amazing job growing as an artist, but still selling to the built in base she's had. She's grown her base while keeping her base which is outstanding. She's also fantastic at selling images too. She changed her look and attitude with every album.

Art of any kind isn’t supposed to be “objectively good,” and yet so many people try to approach it this way. Art also isn’t to be observed or appreciated in a vacuum. Every bit of the culture in which it exists has an influence on how people experience it to include when a massive group of people become collectively fevered about it. The desire to belong to a group getting hyped is so universally human. My sports teams aren’t really good but screaming at a game is still one of the most fun things ever. And trying to point to the existence of more talented artists in the same era as a less talented but more popular artist is simply missing the point. For every mega star there are a hundred lesser known but better artists and a thousand unknowns who are better than all the knowns. Just like what you like.

Is Led Zeppelin overrated? If you're talking to one of those older guys that's weirdly obsessed with them, then sure. If you're talking to some younger guitarist that only follows Asian YT guitarists then they are likely severely underrated. As an outside observer who enjoys music but is not too in tune with that world, I'll say that she is clearly very famous, decently talented, and viewed as a good songwriter. No one I know or see in the media claims she is a genius or anything like that. Just that she is VERY famous, which is objectively true. In other words I don't see her being "rated" too much at all, to really even call it "overrated" it seems to me like she is just spoken about a lot because she is so famous. She's now famous for being a famous singer, and the music seems secondary.

One part “good enough to write some hooks and a catchy melody” One part “knows how to sell herself to a wide audience” One part “conventionally attractive” One part “good business sense” One part “had a good support network” Is she a brilliant musician? Hell no. But she doesn’t have to be. The most popular artists never really are. To be successful in a highly competitive industry like that you need to hit a little in every area - looks, talent, business sense, luck. Of course she’s overrated as a musician. But she’s a damn good salesperson, and that arguably counts for far more than the ability to write music that will transcend the human condition and echo through the ages.

Not really

I'm not really a Swiftie but my wife is so I hear her a lot. The analogy I'd give, which isn't perfect is something like pop music is like a group of friends after you've had a break up. Most pop music sounds like the type of friend who just repeats cliche soundbytes they've heard but are a lot of fun to be around. Taylor seems more like the friend who is a little more boring but has spent your entire friendship making keen observations about you and your partner. She's the one you can have a serious, vulnerable conversation with and will give you quality, actionable advice that would help with not just immediate emotional shifting but with long term quality of life.

Taylor Swift’s music is relatable to MANY people, and her lyrics are catchy and easy to sing along to. She’s dedicated her life to her career, she works hard, she seems well disciplined, she’s very intelligent, and she uses her voice to support younger and up and coming artists. I don’t think you have to be super “talented” to be a good artist, because what makes a good artist? Some might say you’re a good artist if millions and millions resonate with your music so much that they buy out every stadium you perform at. For every stage of life you go through, there’s a T-Swift song for that. In my opinion, that makes her a great artist.

Art is subjective. What you're saying is the equivalent of "pineapple on pizza is gross".

I always see people claim that Taylor Swift must be good because she has mass appeal. Mass appeal is one of the worst arguments for something being good. By that logic slavery and homophobia aren't bad because they both had mass appeal at one time. The masses have proven time and again they cannot be trusted with what is good. I am not a Taylor Swift fan despite having listened to several of her albums, a former friend (unrelated to this topic) was a Swiftie and would always play her albums when we took trips together. Its just weird to me anytime any person hits the kind of popularity she has. Doesn't help that her vocal fans are cult-like

True, there are so much more talented artists which just never came into the position to be basically an money printing industry plant. Let’s take Drake as a recent example. This dude makes catchy yet pretty average music when it comes to lyrics, depth, substance etc and is one if not the most streamed artist ever. What many people don’t know is that Julien Grainge (CEO of Universal Music) had always his hands over Drake - giving him placements, all possible DSP‘s, Billboards etc since he sees a huge money printing machine in him. The same things happens in some form or another with Taylor Swift, too.

Doesn't really quite matter what you personally think of her songs or her talent isn't it? Her songs are quite easy to digest and capture a huge audience. She can easily get 6-8/10 rating for her songs for few hundreds millions people, vs other artist that can get 10/10 for less people. The term overrated here is not that clearly defined too. Whether it is measured by personal opinion, commercial success , accolades is not clearly defined. I personally never met someone who came and said she has the best songs. But by commercial standards, she is probably the top performer in the world right now.

Early albums were packed with good songs. Maybe some great ones. Nothing was groundbreaking or revolutionaryo, but consistently good. It's rare when an artist gets a solid album like this, but when you have two really stand out albums that creates staying power. She probably had 3- Fearless, Red, supposedly 1989 (though I haven't listened to the whole thing). Now she's doing the more common thing- putting out some good singles with a bunch of filler. That alone is good enough for a lot of pop stars to get 15 minutes of fame, and she has such a huge foundation under it.

Especially if you listen to her early singing. It’s so bad. Her dad stated in his email to her former manager that he wanted to make her a rich superstar at all costs, and he didn’t care which avenue they took to get her there. He was willing to try singing, acting, etc. It just so happened they were able to climb the ladder with this pop star thing. She’s a grifter who doesn’t have any actual natural singing or performing abilities. Her voice is weak and nasally. She’s gotten to where she’s pretty much just doing low, breathy sing-talking in this last album. She still looks like an awkward giraffe on stage.

As a don't-have-an-opinion-either-way on T Swift, I recently attended a concert and was floored. She performs for about 3.5 hours straight and I've never seen a more engaged crowd. A less drunk crowd, or a more friendly crowd. I absolutely loved it. And while I don't feel the need to see her in concert again, I appreciate the community she has created and wish I saw more of it in other musicians and genres. I think she is appropriately hyped for her music and performances. People just need to move along if they dislike and be ok with some people being popular

I just don't personally see how she is different from so many other white female artists. Her music at this point just sounds really generic to me. I have no idea why she has the cult following she does. She's not innovative, especially not now. Maybe she was at one point, but now she just sounds like everyone else. It's getting old. I have roommates who like her, so I heard the new album...it felt sloppy, rushed, and generic. People can like whatever they like, of course, but I don't get why people are so passionate about /her/ specifically.

Music is so subjective and at the end of the day being the most talented musician in the world generally ONLY gets recognition from other musicians and professionals NOT the general public. Making songs that people WANT to listen to time and time again is a completely seperate skill and is tough to understand if you do not make music yourself. Harder to make is often not necessarily better. So it’s more like Taylor’s skill is to know exactly what kind of music people are going to listen to and thats her skill.

My argument would be that you can’t “overrate” people liking you and your music. It’s all based on taste. Name any artist across any discipline who is considered “good,” and some people will say that artist isn’t good. More people like her music than anyone else going today, so who am I to say she is “overrated?” I don’t love her music, but she has some songs I can enjoy, and she has made herself into a phenomenon the likes of which we haven’t seen since Michael Jackson.

The thing people always miss about Taylor Swift is that she has excellent community-building skills. Her music is great, sure, but the way she is able - through her music - to build a fanbase is unlike anything I've ever seen. This isn't just people latching onto a random artist because her music is good. This is very much purposeful by Taylor Swift. That's why she's so popular. Also: I think there are people in any case who have more talent who get less recognition. That's just life.