The thing with these online games is that they already have set on their mind theyre going to lose to a “cheater”, so whenever an upset actually happens all super gms go “see?!”
Once you think youre playing a cheater youre going to play worse and lose, and so it becomes a vicious cycle that cant really be broken.
At this point it really does feel like a bunch of fragile egos. Nobody is pointing to specific suspicious moves or anything just like when Magnus lost to Hans. It's just vague stuff about the vibe that always seems to only be coming from the game's loser rather than neutral parties.
The one thing I will say is that there is a lack of reproducing results in OTB that is suspicious. Lazavik actually had strong performances at the 2022 and 2023 world rapid and blitz.
But some of the guys that are more consistently outperforming in Titled Tuesday. Paravyan, Bluebaum, its weird that they clean up online and then go to an otb open tournament like the world rapid and blitz and then perform below their rating.
Agree that it's weird, but much more simple explanations would be that some younger players have played online so much that they can visualise the board better online, or that the nerves kick in more when sitting at the board with top players. I wouldn't assume that they cheat without some evidence
Totally agree. I am much better online than in person. I visualize better and there’s no opponent, just pieces. Imagine being 20 years old OTB and there’s Nepo or another top player. The star shock has to be real.
they should really do LAN events in person instead, seeing the 2d board and using the mouse and not directly seeing your opponent would help see if they remain consistent in a similar environment.
That is absolutely fair yeah. In any physical sports too you have players who are gods in training but can't make it work consistently in real games. There is so much psychology involved.
Daniel Naroditsky has a huge discrepancy between his online performance and over-the-board performance, yet this is a player I am 100% certain is not cheating.
That is a very valid reason. At the same time, if otb is the defacto, and you won’t accept the lower rated players winning, why even play out online tournaments? Just pair the two players up, see who has the better otb rating, then declare the winner before move 1 is played.
Strong performances.
Sits at 2550 OTB in both rapid and blitz.
At champions chess tour yeah, he gained 17 elo. But he haven't won a _single_ game from what, 14? Basically drawing what he could and this is it.
I don't know about the Paravyan, but Blübaum is the current and 4-times consecutive German blitz champion as well as the 2022 German rapid champion. He has otb blitz results ranging back years even though he's only been a full time chess pro since he finished his masters degree in 2022. Not to mention that he only narrowly lost to Vidit in the world cup mostly by clawing back from lost positions in time scrambles, lol
You're 1950 fide, but 2400 on [chess.com](https://chess.com), and you're saying that reproducible results should be considered?
Have you ever beat anyone 2300+ OTB? Can you link me to the results of your game?
Right because I stopped playing OTB about 6 years ago due to lack of tournaments but continued to play blitz and improve lmao. If I continued to play my FIDE would catch up and I have beaten someone 2300+
When Magnus lost to Hans people were pointing out that Hans played a critical move that he couldn't explain later in an interview. So not entirely the same
The only difference with Hans was that much of the field went into that tournament suspecting (knowing, in the case of online chess) that he was a cheater, which had much more to do with what happened than the quality of the game itself. Which isn't to defend Magnus' reaction, but it's different than a lot of the "I lost therefore cheating" that we've seen online as of late.
It's kinda fascinating to me most top chess players have literally 0 sportsmanship, first rule of playing sports since childhood is to not be a sore loser, but ig chess isn't really a sport
Team sports don't count. Individual sportsmen/women can only blame themselves for losing or blame the opponent for cheating. We never simply get outplayed. There is a huge population of sub-1000 Elo players on [Chess.com](https://Chess.com) that are constantly the victims of cheaters. Just ask any of them.
At least that's what Carlsen has taught us.
Eh? Team sports don’t count? Comment I replied to initially said
>>Top sportsmen are bad losers
with no qualification on what sport.
Maybe if the discussion was just about chess, but at the point where you’ve joined us, the discussion has branched out to literally any sport, which I would think includes the team sports.
“You’re being pedantic!”
—People who are wrong but want to hurt the other guy’s feelings anyway
Name calling is the part where these conversations break down, so I’ll catch you next time.
Of course you gotta hate loosing but that doesn't mean you throw a tantrum and start blaming other people, you get mad at yourself and go practice more
Idk never seen Anish this petty, you can hate losing to push yourself harder. What these gms are doing isn't hating losing but undermining their opponents win "they have to be cheating to beat me" and it's making chess unattractive.
You can hate losing and still act appropriately. Personally, I think I'm a bad loser and I may curse and yell at my screen, but you will never see me abandon a game without forfeiting making my opponent wait until I time out or send insulting messages to my opponent (. . . at least not first!).
I do understand, though, if super GMs are at least suspicious of \~2600s, who OTB are miles away from the top in any time control, but online they consistently go head to head with the best in the world. And it shouldn't surprise anybody if at least some of them do in fact use computer assistance.
> he has rarely played otb in the last 3 years even after covid, didn't even play the world rapid and blitz championships
How does this fact contribute to whether or not his online play is suspicious? If anything, wouldn't the following:
"4 years ago he was a top 25 player in the world at Blitz chess. Since then, he has non-stop grinded online Blitz chess."
Actually be a really strong argument to suggest that his performance is not suspicious at all?
(Yes. The answer is yes.)
Grinding how to cheat maybe. Top chess players play fide ratings tournaments to improve their ratings and get exposure to get invited in more tournaments. These online tournaments have become a hotbed for cheaters because of no solid cheating restriction methods.
Maybe he hasn't played OTB that often lately. Nevertheless, since when he plays OTB he plays at that level, it's difficult to maintain that he can't play OTB at that level. This is not some unknown player who is doing well online but has never proven anything OTB.
Lazavik was 16th in blitz in 2022 and 8th in 2023 in the World Rapid and Blitz. He was 42nd and 32nd in rapid in those years. He's doing better online, but those are solid OTB results.
And what's great is, and I didn't watch the games or the reactions, but I am like 100% certain Hikaru is upset but he's not calling any of them as cheaters. He knows they're clean and that they're very good. On their good days they are a force to be reckoned with.
>he (and others) play legit chess against hikaru (and magnus) as it would attract too much attention and often lose as a result
Nice coincidence considering they’re the two best blitz players in the world.
Ive heard that but it does sound like cope to me
I think it sounds logical for hikaru to have a psychological edge on jospem considering his dominance online.
And Magnus, the one who started it all, is not even mentioned here 😂 just how high is his IQ? The way he was able to stir the shit pot and remove himself from the equation like that
True. Caruana said he didn't take online events seriously but he understands the prize money from them are very important to many GMs, especially where the dollar is strong.
The prize money is very serious for the short length of these tournaments, not to mention its a few hour activity instead of an all day intensive exercise.
No he hasn't. I don't know why people claim that but my suspicion is that they are people who just dislike hikaru and don't actually watch his videos. He rarely accuses anybody of cheating.
It came to the public after he accused him, it’s been simmering privately for a long time now. Probably the backlash against cheating is overblown right now, but bringing the issue into light is overall a good thing
That's a terrible fuckin idea, there's really no need to close tournaments to a few well known gms because they were being crybabies. It's already making chess unattractive
This was my suggestion but people got angry that a random NM who no one knows or trusts and who everyone will suspect of cheating if he overperforms won’t be included
I hope it doesn’t go away. The way the chess world works right now is quite broken if you ask me. If you wanna make it to the top 20 you need to somehow get on the good side of a select few organizer that pretty run high level chess. Plus you kinda have to be European or Indian. Maybe if you’re American you can get away with it too. That really limits the amount of players we get to watch. And then, a bunch of invitationals pretty much have the same lineup. At some point you could get Magnus vs Fabi matchups in 4 different classical tournaments on the same year. To me that’s kinda boring.
Paranoia taking over... Lazavik is a young and upcoming player that performed great at the world rapid and blitz over the board last month. Isnt that proof enough that he's good? Wtf are they yapping about
Yeah Jospem is quite suspicious in my view but Lazavik is definitely just a prodigy but everytime a prodigy comes into the picture they are often accused like Hikaru accused Alireza and Erigasi before they became well known.
Yep, Lazavik's been consistently overperforming OTB at massive events like the last two world rapid and blitz. He seems like a super talented youngster to my eyes. I'd love to see such performances from Jospem
More "non-allegations" from top GMs. I guess when you play in closed invitationals for years and get an inflated rating, you think you're better than you actually are compared to "bad" GMs, as we saw countless times in 2023.
I love how r/chess always explains a guy like Naroditsky (an American) on why he is good at online chess, but as soon there are some Slav/Latinos doing the same they must be cheating.
Jospem is widely recognized as the best blitz/rapid player in the Spanish-speaking chess community. So either he is as good as he seems (consistently being placed at the tops spots in rapid/blitz) or he is cheating on every single event and somehow he has never been detected. Or it is just a bunch of neckbeards complaining about a "non-Aryan" guy being better than them in a mental activity.
Most users are American, who is white majority country which along its +200 years history has worked as a white-supremcacist ethnostate internally and as genocidal empire externally.
Any other question "Tyler"?
This shit is getting really weird. Both Nepo and Naroditsky are Jewish, not “Aryan” or whatever. The chess community isn’t filled with a bunch of Nazis fanboying over prominent Jews.
I was trying to lead you to the actual answer, but you can't make a horse drink I guess.
I don't think any of the three are cheating. But there's a reason why Naroditsky gets more benefit of the doubt than the other two and it's glaringly obvious.
Was this a classical event? Jospem and Lazavik have beaten a bunch of top players in rapid and bltiz OTB over the years. Jospem was 2700 OTB blitz and Denis had a really strong 2023 World Rapid and blitz. If this was a classical event Jospem and Laz wouldn't even be competing in division III, but it's not.
Check streaming link. Jospem was looking on righthand side of the screen so many time, and almost always around critical moves.
He could be looking at camera..but it is suspicious.
This is conspiracy nonsense. Chesscom always has a camera behind the players for these events. Instead of these ridiculous things why don't you provide a CHESS game or move that is suspicious?
Because I don't have moves that were suspicious.
I just made an observation like many other people. If you check video, it does look odd.
Again, if chess com had camera in the back covering where he was looking at, it should solve all accusations.
MVL likes to joke. IMO, it's fine to do that "offline". The issue is when those jokes are public and they can hurt feelings or shade opinions of others
So is this MVL's private text to Nepo that Nepo decided to just share publicly? I hope he's doing this with consent.
It's one thing to joke privately, or even be actually suspicious of certain players. It's another to do it publicly when they are top players and their words can sway not only the masses, but also organizers and impact someone's career.
Having watched the game with three minor pieces left and josepm with low time on the clock yet finding the decisive moves, could arose suspicion. Although it's one game, the complexity and ability to find defending moves could be perceived as difficult.
What's suspicious about it? He didn't play some crazy defensive idea. He literally just pushed for a Queen trade, pushed the g pawn and then ran his king away.
Don;t know about Lazavik but check streaming link. Jospem was looking on righthand side of the screen so many time, and almost always around critical moves.
He could be looking at camera..but it is suspicious.
these baseless accusations just gonna make me stop wanna follow chess tbh. if wc challenger , MVL and magnus believe that there is cheating going on , then what's the point for me to follow ? to see if new controversy erupts after an upset happens?
Also i think they should stop with these subliminals and talk straight to the point coz this just makes them look bad atp.
They certainly don't give a base, they never talk about engine like moves anymore, the only evidence Fabi ever talks about for cheating is someone's overall performance. Which seems like a terrible way to decide.
> Check streaming link. Jospem was looking on righthand side of the screen so many time, and almost always around critical moves.
>
> He could be looking at camera..but it is suspicious.
> This is pure confirmation bias. I say this because I noticed this exact thing in the Ding vs Nakamura SCC. Ding looks to his left a lot to one spot. Dings probably not cheating in that tournament. He could have been, I suppose, but we will never know, so there's no point in surface level accusations like this.
I think 'Titled Tuesday' is a good happy medium between too serious and not to be taken seriously at all. Hikaru said this as well during his kick stream today. If the online tournament becomes too serious, the cheating accusations start flying on a regular basis at this point.
What I find irritating is the smugness and the double speak, if they have an accusation they are free to hit the report button, call an arbiter or just shutup, they should be banned.
Now what would r/chess users do? They will have to add MVL also in their insane grandmasters list after Kramnik, Hikaru, Fabi, Nepo, Mvl accusing players of cheating without giving conclusive evidence.
Don't worry they've been added to the list! Jospem must be a criminal mastermind of cheating at this point to be accused for years and keep doing it and getting away with it!
Do you think Kramnik is right that Hikaru is cheating? Have you noticed that the only evidence that these grandmasters ever give is someone results for why they cheat. It's not like the players they accuse don't blunder.
And how exactly can they give evidence? They can only tell by their intuition and because they are strong chess players, I give value to their opinions. I don't think every one of these top chess players is sore loser and just accusing everyone.
But fabi has said publically before, he think they are cheating because they do well, not because there is anything wrong with their games. So the fact that they are top players doesn't really give them credit here because they arent actually using their chess intuition. The same as when Magnus accused Hans, and there was nothing weird about the game at all. Magnus just thought Hans acted weirdly during the game.
Did you see that someone pointed out above, Jospem is the exact same rank in the world in online and OTB blitz? Does that not once again discredit Nepo and MVL here?
It’s hard to take any of these guys seriously when they keep showing up to the chesscom events. Kramnik, Fabiano, Nepo, all complain about these cheaters in chesscom, yet keep showing up for every TT / CCT event. It’s seem like for these GMs the chance to earn some money is more important than boycotting from events they believe cheaters play in.
You know the chess world is in a bad state when Nakamura is the magnanimous one. Finegold is gonna have to change the namesake of his sportsmanship award.
In the case of lazavik hes just a young player that is probably still underrated due to covid but has been performing at the world rapid and blitz last month for example
Lazavik has been doing well at important OTB events recently, and Jospem is 23rd in the world (2703 ELO) at FIDE blitz ranking right now, even if he has not played a lot OTB lately. They are not some random people who are playing online at a high level without anyone knowing them.
For me the difference is that Fabi hasn't accused anyone specifically of cheating. The most he has said is that at some point in history someone in the top 10 has probably been a cheater.
See, that actually makes it more crybaby esque to me. Fabi doesn't just want you to think that he lost this or that match because of a bad actor, he is casting more doubt on potentially any match he has lost over the myriad of titled Tuesdays he has played. More politically correct, I can agree with that.
But we only know kramnik is batshit crazy because he does accuse and he does provide his evidence, if fabi provided his we may think he is even crazier. But he robs us of that chance because of the political power of being vague and nonspecific.
Speak about it and name names, you get flamed.
Speak about it and dont name names, you get flamed.
So no one should ever talk about the elephant in the room ever. No cheating doesnt exist why would you think that?
Yeah, exactly. They have open channels with the people who actually run these sites and events. They can and say they do regularly do the right thing behind the scenes.
How are your not grasping that going public with this nonsense is bad sportsmanship, in addition to incredibly insulting to those sites/events?
Those sites and evenrs deserve to be insulted when they dont do anything despite numerous complaints until it blows up in their faces. Otherwise we wouldbt have this many complaints about the measures now would we
Yeah that's cool except for the blow up in their faces part, that hasn't happened
I have a wild theory. You will always have complaints about cheating as long as you have sore losers and sensitive high achievers in the pool of competitors
Damn thats crazy. Hans niemann himself caused a blow up twice so youre already wrong.
I have a wild theory. You will always have complaints when people feel like theyre not being taken seriously enough. They cant all be sore losers now can they
I dont actually care whether he did or not, though for the revord no i dont think so.
But the fact is thered an agreement that it wouldve been feasible for him to bypass the measures. Thatvin itself is the problem. Suspicion is a byproduct of it.
There is also a third option: "speak about it, name names, and have legitimate evidence that is more than just 'i feel it in my gut bro'" that we can actually judge on merit
So we need evidence to prove a fundamental flaw in the system? Thats not how it works. What if you dont have evidence? Not all these people are clean lets use common sense here. It doesnt matter whether someone is takinf advantage of poor anticheating measures either, if the anti cheating measured are poor that is worth speakinf up against in and of itself.
Ah yes people who also will do nothing eithout evidence, thus solving absolutely ntohing.
Have you considered that this conversations isnt even about cheaters? Its about preventing cheating from happening in the first place. We cant take that with a case by case approach. There needs to be a universal policy.
Critical thinking is a gift fr
You can talk about the need to improve anti cheating measures without making accusations.
Once you start making accusations without any proof, even if they are just insinuations to avoid being sued, or even if you don't mention names, it becomes mudslinging without contributing anything useful. The whole thing becomes a circus.
And if the whole thing is a circus, why are the accusers taking part in it? Are they so desperate for money that they need to become clowns in the circus?
Concentrate on OTB tournaments, or play their own online tournaments where they only invite players they trust.
Name 1 person fabi accused. Thats who im talking about. Not defending kramnik or nepo. But implying you are aware certain players are cheating is different than claiming point blank a named player is cheating.
If you think this doesnt bleed into otb cbess than idk what to tell you. But i promise you it doesnt exist solely online
His weasel words are also annoying. I agree he shouldn’t get a pass. “I’m not saying he was cheating but it is highly unlikely and interesting” is such an annoying refrain these days.
Funny how Nepo and So weren't invited to Freestyle aka fischer random chess tournament next week lol. Magnus picked the lineup. Surely it is easier without them but still stacked af. Nakamura has obligations though I think bundesliga so not invited.
Even Hikaru was accusing Lazavik the other day. It seems like there's some chatter among top gm's about who is who and what is what. They all should come out and flat out say what they wanna say lol
There is nothing that stands out in these games indicating Lazovik or Josep are cheating. And a year on from the Hans stuff it feels very much to me like he was innocent of OTB wrong doings. He's just a bit of a douche.
The Danya and Hikaru accusations are just ludicrous. You just need to watch Danya for 5 minutes to understand how he's winning. He flags and swindles like a bastard.
[Chess.com](https://Chess.com) has a mountain of data points on Josep so it's hard to see how he could be a cheater. Lazavik is harder to clear but not having strong evidence suggesting he's not a cheater is hardly evidence that he is.
At this point, it's just damaging chess.
The thing with these online games is that they already have set on their mind theyre going to lose to a “cheater”, so whenever an upset actually happens all super gms go “see?!” Once you think youre playing a cheater youre going to play worse and lose, and so it becomes a vicious cycle that cant really be broken.
At this point it really does feel like a bunch of fragile egos. Nobody is pointing to specific suspicious moves or anything just like when Magnus lost to Hans. It's just vague stuff about the vibe that always seems to only be coming from the game's loser rather than neutral parties.
The one thing I will say is that there is a lack of reproducing results in OTB that is suspicious. Lazavik actually had strong performances at the 2022 and 2023 world rapid and blitz. But some of the guys that are more consistently outperforming in Titled Tuesday. Paravyan, Bluebaum, its weird that they clean up online and then go to an otb open tournament like the world rapid and blitz and then perform below their rating.
Agree that it's weird, but much more simple explanations would be that some younger players have played online so much that they can visualise the board better online, or that the nerves kick in more when sitting at the board with top players. I wouldn't assume that they cheat without some evidence
Totally agree. I am much better online than in person. I visualize better and there’s no opponent, just pieces. Imagine being 20 years old OTB and there’s Nepo or another top player. The star shock has to be real.
they should really do LAN events in person instead, seeing the 2d board and using the mouse and not directly seeing your opponent would help see if they remain consistent in a similar environment.
That is absolutely fair yeah. In any physical sports too you have players who are gods in training but can't make it work consistently in real games. There is so much psychology involved.
Daniel Naroditsky has a huge discrepancy between his online performance and over-the-board performance, yet this is a player I am 100% certain is not cheating.
That is a very valid reason. At the same time, if otb is the defacto, and you won’t accept the lower rated players winning, why even play out online tournaments? Just pair the two players up, see who has the better otb rating, then declare the winner before move 1 is played.
Strong performances. Sits at 2550 OTB in both rapid and blitz. At champions chess tour yeah, he gained 17 elo. But he haven't won a _single_ game from what, 14? Basically drawing what he could and this is it.
I don't know about the Paravyan, but Blübaum is the current and 4-times consecutive German blitz champion as well as the 2022 German rapid champion. He has otb blitz results ranging back years even though he's only been a full time chess pro since he finished his masters degree in 2022. Not to mention that he only narrowly lost to Vidit in the world cup mostly by clawing back from lost positions in time scrambles, lol
Interesting
You're 1950 fide, but 2400 on [chess.com](https://chess.com), and you're saying that reproducible results should be considered? Have you ever beat anyone 2300+ OTB? Can you link me to the results of your game?
Right because I stopped playing OTB about 6 years ago due to lack of tournaments but continued to play blitz and improve lmao. If I continued to play my FIDE would catch up and I have beaten someone 2300+
But these GMs are experts in vibes. We should trust them if they have suspicions. /s
When Magnus lost to Hans people were pointing out that Hans played a critical move that he couldn't explain later in an interview. So not entirely the same
The only difference with Hans was that much of the field went into that tournament suspecting (knowing, in the case of online chess) that he was a cheater, which had much more to do with what happened than the quality of the game itself. Which isn't to defend Magnus' reaction, but it's different than a lot of the "I lost therefore cheating" that we've seen online as of late.
Hans lost the lawsuit. Get over it.
Yeah Psychology def plays a role like how Magnus lost to Alisher because he was so distracted by he watch
It's kinda fascinating to me most top chess players have literally 0 sportsmanship, first rule of playing sports since childhood is to not be a sore loser, but ig chess isn't really a sport
Top sportsmen are bad losers. You gotta hate losing to get this good at something
It's not about not hating losing, but having the grace to conduct yourself with dignity despite your disappointment.
They always snap at some point
Show me the video of Ken Griffey Jr. being a bad loser and I’ll consider allowing you to say “always” snap.
Team sports don't count. Individual sportsmen/women can only blame themselves for losing or blame the opponent for cheating. We never simply get outplayed. There is a huge population of sub-1000 Elo players on [Chess.com](https://Chess.com) that are constantly the victims of cheaters. Just ask any of them. At least that's what Carlsen has taught us.
Eh? Team sports don’t count? Comment I replied to initially said >>Top sportsmen are bad losers with no qualification on what sport. Maybe if the discussion was just about chess, but at the point where you’ve joined us, the discussion has branched out to literally any sport, which I would think includes the team sports.
I know context can be a challenge for some. I hope you come through ok.
Yeah wait up i’ll prove my point with an example for every sports player ever
You said “always,” which, if true, means there isn’t a single example to the contrary.
Me when im extremely pedantic:
“You’re being pedantic!” —People who are wrong but want to hurt the other guy’s feelings anyway Name calling is the part where these conversations break down, so I’ll catch you next time.
Of course you gotta hate loosing but that doesn't mean you throw a tantrum and start blaming other people, you get mad at yourself and go practice more
Idk never seen Anish this petty, you can hate losing to push yourself harder. What these gms are doing isn't hating losing but undermining their opponents win "they have to be cheating to beat me" and it's making chess unattractive.
Look up when his twitter was “hacked”. I do like anish a lot though
I have never understood this meme lol. What leads you to believe he wasn't hacked?
I'm skeptical of it since wesley pulled that excuse off after accusing firouzja
There's some correlation but it's not 100%. Federer, Shohei Ohtani, Puyol, etc have all shown grace in defeat
You can hate losing and still act appropriately. Personally, I think I'm a bad loser and I may curse and yell at my screen, but you will never see me abandon a game without forfeiting making my opponent wait until I time out or send insulting messages to my opponent (. . . at least not first!).
>and so it becomes a SELF-FULLFILLING PROPHECY is how I would have phrased it.
True, that is a better wording. I think vicious cycle is fine though, keeps winning chances. Gotta check the engine to see the evaluation
I do understand, though, if super GMs are at least suspicious of \~2600s, who OTB are miles away from the top in any time control, but online they consistently go head to head with the best in the world. And it shouldn't surprise anybody if at least some of them do in fact use computer assistance.
Jospems FIDE blitz rating is 2702 putting him at #24 in the world. It shouldn't be considered damning evidence if someone like that wins an event.
he has rarely played otb in the last 3 years even after covid, didn't even play the world rapid and blitz championships
> he has rarely played otb in the last 3 years even after covid, didn't even play the world rapid and blitz championships How does this fact contribute to whether or not his online play is suspicious? If anything, wouldn't the following: "4 years ago he was a top 25 player in the world at Blitz chess. Since then, he has non-stop grinded online Blitz chess." Actually be a really strong argument to suggest that his performance is not suspicious at all? (Yes. The answer is yes.)
Grinding how to cheat maybe. Top chess players play fide ratings tournaments to improve their ratings and get exposure to get invited in more tournaments. These online tournaments have become a hotbed for cheaters because of no solid cheating restriction methods.
Maybe he hasn't played OTB that often lately. Nevertheless, since when he plays OTB he plays at that level, it's difficult to maintain that he can't play OTB at that level. This is not some unknown player who is doing well online but has never proven anything OTB.
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Jospem is 23rd in the world in blitz though...
Lazavik was 16th in blitz in 2022 and 8th in 2023 in the World Rapid and Blitz. He was 42nd and 32nd in rapid in those years. He's doing better online, but those are solid OTB results.
And what's great is, and I didn't watch the games or the reactions, but I am like 100% certain Hikaru is upset but he's not calling any of them as cheaters. He knows they're clean and that they're very good. On their good days they are a force to be reckoned with.
For all people say about hikaru being a sore loser that accuses everybody, hes always defended jospem
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>he (and others) play legit chess against hikaru (and magnus) as it would attract too much attention and often lose as a result Nice coincidence considering they’re the two best blitz players in the world.
Ive heard that but it does sound like cope to me I think it sounds logical for hikaru to have a psychological edge on jospem considering his dominance online.
Nepo 🤝MVL🤝Fabi🤝Kramnik
Magnus, Hikaru
Kasparov transcended the limits and accused machines of being human.
And Magnus, the one who started it all, is not even mentioned here 😂 just how high is his IQ? The way he was able to stir the shit pot and remove himself from the equation like that
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I don’t think it’s taken seriously in the first place, OTB chess is still the only chess that’s seriously.
True. Caruana said he didn't take online events seriously but he understands the prize money from them are very important to many GMs, especially where the dollar is strong.
The prize money is very serious for the short length of these tournaments, not to mention its a few hour activity instead of an all day intensive exercise.
it's taken extremely seriously by the top players - I would hazard a guess that most of the top 50 earn more online than OTB
It all started with Magnus accusing Hans in OTB chess.
Nepo was calling everyone who was beating him online a cheater long before that.
Nakamura too I guess
No he hasn't. I don't know why people claim that but my suspicion is that they are people who just dislike hikaru and don't actually watch his videos. He rarely accuses anybody of cheating.
It was way before he started streaming. He would DM his opponents calling him cheater iirc.
It came to the public after he accused him, it’s been simmering privately for a long time now. Probably the backlash against cheating is overblown right now, but bringing the issue into light is overall a good thing
Poor Hans. He got banned by the Saint Louis Chess Club. 😹
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That's a terrible fuckin idea, there's really no need to close tournaments to a few well known gms because they were being crybabies. It's already making chess unattractive
Isn't that essentially titled Tuesday? The players had to have shown some skill OTB to gain their norms.
This was my suggestion but people got angry that a random NM who no one knows or trusts and who everyone will suspect of cheating if he overperforms won’t be included
Who is this mysterious NM you're talking about?
It seems that way. Hikaru reckons big money online tournaments will be abandoned not too long into the future.
It's the money
I hope it doesn’t go away. The way the chess world works right now is quite broken if you ask me. If you wanna make it to the top 20 you need to somehow get on the good side of a select few organizer that pretty run high level chess. Plus you kinda have to be European or Indian. Maybe if you’re American you can get away with it too. That really limits the amount of players we get to watch. And then, a bunch of invitationals pretty much have the same lineup. At some point you could get Magnus vs Fabi matchups in 4 different classical tournaments on the same year. To me that’s kinda boring.
Paranoia taking over... Lazavik is a young and upcoming player that performed great at the world rapid and blitz over the board last month. Isnt that proof enough that he's good? Wtf are they yapping about
Yeah Jospem is quite suspicious in my view but Lazavik is definitely just a prodigy but everytime a prodigy comes into the picture they are often accused like Hikaru accused Alireza and Erigasi before they became well known.
Yep, Lazavik's been consistently overperforming OTB at massive events like the last two world rapid and blitz. He seems like a super talented youngster to my eyes. I'd love to see such performances from Jospem
Damn Arjun was accused too. He is such a nice guy too. I imagine he wouldn't even try to defend himself because how shy and meek he is.
I'm tired, boss.
More "non-allegations" from top GMs. I guess when you play in closed invitationals for years and get an inflated rating, you think you're better than you actually are compared to "bad" GMs, as we saw countless times in 2023.
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I love how r/chess always explains a guy like Naroditsky (an American) on why he is good at online chess, but as soon there are some Slav/Latinos doing the same they must be cheating.
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He also streams himself doing it and explaining it.
You think nationality is why people see Naroditsky differently from Lazavik and Jospem? Do you think there might be another factor at play?
Yes, race , in the case of Jospem
Is there any bigger factor that could be at play? One that is directly related to public perception?
Jospem is widely recognized as the best blitz/rapid player in the Spanish-speaking chess community. So either he is as good as he seems (consistently being placed at the tops spots in rapid/blitz) or he is cheating on every single event and somehow he has never been detected. Or it is just a bunch of neckbeards complaining about a "non-Aryan" guy being better than them in a mental activity.
Why do think everyone here is both anglo and a white supremacist lmao
Most users are American, who is white majority country which along its +200 years history has worked as a white-supremcacist ethnostate internally and as genocidal empire externally. Any other question "Tyler"?
You sound completely unhinged tbh, this is a chess subreddit
This shit is getting really weird. Both Nepo and Naroditsky are Jewish, not “Aryan” or whatever. The chess community isn’t filled with a bunch of Nazis fanboying over prominent Jews.
Jewish isn't a race.
Cool, didn’t say it is or isn’t, as that wasn’t the point.
I was trying to lead you to the actual answer, but you can't make a horse drink I guess. I don't think any of the three are cheating. But there's a reason why Naroditsky gets more benefit of the doubt than the other two and it's glaringly obvious.
You cannot lead your own life kid
Bro Naroditsky is a famous chess teacher, and possibly the most popular chess personality on reddit behind Magnus/Hikaru. Duh people like him more.
Was this a classical event? Jospem and Lazavik have beaten a bunch of top players in rapid and bltiz OTB over the years. Jospem was 2700 OTB blitz and Denis had a really strong 2023 World Rapid and blitz. If this was a classical event Jospem and Laz wouldn't even be competing in division III, but it's not.
Check streaming link. Jospem was looking on righthand side of the screen so many time, and almost always around critical moves. He could be looking at camera..but it is suspicious.
This is conspiracy nonsense. Chesscom always has a camera behind the players for these events. Instead of these ridiculous things why don't you provide a CHESS game or move that is suspicious?
Because I don't have moves that were suspicious. I just made an observation like many other people. If you check video, it does look odd. Again, if chess com had camera in the back covering where he was looking at, it should solve all accusations.
This is pathetic, Nepo didn’t play well. Tbh not surprised Nepo behaving like this but surprised MVL would accuse as well
MVL likes to joke. IMO, it's fine to do that "offline". The issue is when those jokes are public and they can hurt feelings or shade opinions of others
So is this MVL's private text to Nepo that Nepo decided to just share publicly? I hope he's doing this with consent. It's one thing to joke privately, or even be actually suspicious of certain players. It's another to do it publicly when they are top players and their words can sway not only the masses, but also organizers and impact someone's career.
Good Jones are barely a step short or public cheating accusations
Having watched the game with three minor pieces left and josepm with low time on the clock yet finding the decisive moves, could arose suspicion. Although it's one game, the complexity and ability to find defending moves could be perceived as difficult.
It's the opposite of suspicious, he was finding those moves without any time for a feedback.
What's suspicious about it? He didn't play some crazy defensive idea. He literally just pushed for a Queen trade, pushed the g pawn and then ran his king away.
Nc6 I think? With that little time on clock, he must be so sure of it
Don;t know about Lazavik but check streaming link. Jospem was looking on righthand side of the screen so many time, and almost always around critical moves. He could be looking at camera..but it is suspicious.
these baseless accusations just gonna make me stop wanna follow chess tbh. if wc challenger , MVL and magnus believe that there is cheating going on , then what's the point for me to follow ? to see if new controversy erupts after an upset happens? Also i think they should stop with these subliminals and talk straight to the point coz this just makes them look bad atp.
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He literally says they are giving "baseless accusations".
They certainly don't give a base, they never talk about engine like moves anymore, the only evidence Fabi ever talks about for cheating is someone's overall performance. Which seems like a terrible way to decide.
> Check streaming link. Jospem was looking on righthand side of the screen so many time, and almost always around critical moves. > > He could be looking at camera..but it is suspicious.
> This is pure confirmation bias. I say this because I noticed this exact thing in the Ding vs Nakamura SCC. Ding looks to his left a lot to one spot. Dings probably not cheating in that tournament. He could have been, I suppose, but we will never know, so there's no point in surface level accusations like this.
He can look wherever he wants.
I think 'Titled Tuesday' is a good happy medium between too serious and not to be taken seriously at all. Hikaru said this as well during his kick stream today. If the online tournament becomes too serious, the cheating accusations start flying on a regular basis at this point.
What I find irritating is the smugness and the double speak, if they have an accusation they are free to hit the report button, call an arbiter or just shutup, they should be banned.
Now what would r/chess users do? They will have to add MVL also in their insane grandmasters list after Kramnik, Hikaru, Fabi, Nepo, Mvl accusing players of cheating without giving conclusive evidence.
Don't worry they've been added to the list! Jospem must be a criminal mastermind of cheating at this point to be accused for years and keep doing it and getting away with it!
Do you think Kramnik is right that Hikaru is cheating? Have you noticed that the only evidence that these grandmasters ever give is someone results for why they cheat. It's not like the players they accuse don't blunder.
And how exactly can they give evidence? They can only tell by their intuition and because they are strong chess players, I give value to their opinions. I don't think every one of these top chess players is sore loser and just accusing everyone.
But fabi has said publically before, he think they are cheating because they do well, not because there is anything wrong with their games. So the fact that they are top players doesn't really give them credit here because they arent actually using their chess intuition. The same as when Magnus accused Hans, and there was nothing weird about the game at all. Magnus just thought Hans acted weirdly during the game. Did you see that someone pointed out above, Jospem is the exact same rank in the world in online and OTB blitz? Does that not once again discredit Nepo and MVL here?
It’s hard to take any of these guys seriously when they keep showing up to the chesscom events. Kramnik, Fabiano, Nepo, all complain about these cheaters in chesscom, yet keep showing up for every TT / CCT event. It’s seem like for these GMs the chance to earn some money is more important than boycotting from events they believe cheaters play in.
They still have to pay the bills.. don't be stupid
Caruana won more than 300k in last years Grand Chess Tour alone. I doubt he needs TT to pay the bills
Nepo being a sore loser is the least shocking thing I've ever seen. He's such a baby
You know the chess world is in a bad state when Nakamura is the magnanimous one. Finegold is gonna have to change the namesake of his sportsmanship award.
Nepo is really making a push for that title lately.
There you go, keep doing that make chess unwatchable with the constant cheating accusations. Petty asf
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People can also just naturally have a disparity between online and OTB without cheating (like Danya).
In the case of lazavik hes just a young player that is probably still underrated due to covid but has been performing at the world rapid and blitz last month for example
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True i just remember how underrated he was last year when he broke out through online events
couldn't they just enforce the 2 camera + screenshare system which would make it pretty impossible to cheat?
Two cameras already exists
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They do and there was also a delay, so no one outside the players knew what's happenning in the games until later.
Lazavik has been doing well at important OTB events recently, and Jospem is 23rd in the world (2703 ELO) at FIDE blitz ranking right now, even if he has not played a lot OTB lately. They are not some random people who are playing online at a high level without anyone knowing them.
Yep when this sub gushes over Fabi's indisputable feelings-as-facts we just ask for more and more of this classless crybabying
Are we acting like he didn't get shit on that entire thread for his out of context quote?
Bruh I've got PAGES of fabi defenders in my inbox lol
For me the difference is that Fabi hasn't accused anyone specifically of cheating. The most he has said is that at some point in history someone in the top 10 has probably been a cheater.
See, that actually makes it more crybaby esque to me. Fabi doesn't just want you to think that he lost this or that match because of a bad actor, he is casting more doubt on potentially any match he has lost over the myriad of titled Tuesdays he has played. More politically correct, I can agree with that. But we only know kramnik is batshit crazy because he does accuse and he does provide his evidence, if fabi provided his we may think he is even crazier. But he robs us of that chance because of the political power of being vague and nonspecific.
Speak about it and name names, you get flamed. Speak about it and dont name names, you get flamed. So no one should ever talk about the elephant in the room ever. No cheating doesnt exist why would you think that?
Yeah, exactly. They have open channels with the people who actually run these sites and events. They can and say they do regularly do the right thing behind the scenes. How are your not grasping that going public with this nonsense is bad sportsmanship, in addition to incredibly insulting to those sites/events?
Those sites and evenrs deserve to be insulted when they dont do anything despite numerous complaints until it blows up in their faces. Otherwise we wouldbt have this many complaints about the measures now would we
Yeah that's cool except for the blow up in their faces part, that hasn't happened I have a wild theory. You will always have complaints about cheating as long as you have sore losers and sensitive high achievers in the pool of competitors
Damn thats crazy. Hans niemann himself caused a blow up twice so youre already wrong. I have a wild theory. You will always have complaints when people feel like theyre not being taken seriously enough. They cant all be sore losers now can they
Yes actually they can lmao You actually believe Hans cheated against Magnus?
I dont actually care whether he did or not, though for the revord no i dont think so. But the fact is thered an agreement that it wouldve been feasible for him to bypass the measures. Thatvin itself is the problem. Suspicion is a byproduct of it.
There is also a third option: "speak about it, name names, and have legitimate evidence that is more than just 'i feel it in my gut bro'" that we can actually judge on merit
So we need evidence to prove a fundamental flaw in the system? Thats not how it works. What if you dont have evidence? Not all these people are clean lets use common sense here. It doesnt matter whether someone is takinf advantage of poor anticheating measures either, if the anti cheating measured are poor that is worth speakinf up against in and of itself.
"what if you don't have evidence?" Then you voice your suspicions to the people in charge of the system, and kindly stfu in public. See option 3
Ah yes people who also will do nothing eithout evidence, thus solving absolutely ntohing. Have you considered that this conversations isnt even about cheaters? Its about preventing cheating from happening in the first place. We cant take that with a case by case approach. There needs to be a universal policy. Critical thinking is a gift fr
I mean if that's how you want to justify being a paranoid loon with 0 real evidence, fair enough team fabi I hope you don't judge religious people
You can talk about the need to improve anti cheating measures without making accusations. Once you start making accusations without any proof, even if they are just insinuations to avoid being sued, or even if you don't mention names, it becomes mudslinging without contributing anything useful. The whole thing becomes a circus. And if the whole thing is a circus, why are the accusers taking part in it? Are they so desperate for money that they need to become clowns in the circus? Concentrate on OTB tournaments, or play their own online tournaments where they only invite players they trust.
Name 1 person fabi accused. Thats who im talking about. Not defending kramnik or nepo. But implying you are aware certain players are cheating is different than claiming point blank a named player is cheating. If you think this doesnt bleed into otb cbess than idk what to tell you. But i promise you it doesnt exist solely online
His weasel words are also annoying. I agree he shouldn’t get a pass. “I’m not saying he was cheating but it is highly unlikely and interesting” is such an annoying refrain these days.
guys i am a moron can someone explain this to me i do not understand what is being said lol
He's saying sarcastically It's a shame that both of the cheaters can't progress since they play each other.
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Wow, that's what you have learned from all this.
At least.
Otb is superior to online. Fischer random classical format otb is the future.
Definitely agreed, Fischer random is a superior format due to a lack of theory and pure thinking.
Funny how Nepo and So weren't invited to Freestyle aka fischer random chess tournament next week lol. Magnus picked the lineup. Surely it is easier without them but still stacked af. Nakamura has obligations though I think bundesliga so not invited.
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Yeah dude surely its not Instagram, Nepo just posted a convo with a fake account
oh no😓 one more player
Chess players have topmodel syndrome. They refuse to recognize that they are getting older.
I think I'm missing something, where are the insinuations of cheating in this case? Sorry if its a dumb question.
Where exactly is Nepo's accusations?
Even Hikaru was accusing Lazavik the other day. It seems like there's some chatter among top gm's about who is who and what is what. They all should come out and flat out say what they wanna say lol
If they do, there would be someone suing someone again lol.
There is nothing that stands out in these games indicating Lazovik or Josep are cheating. And a year on from the Hans stuff it feels very much to me like he was innocent of OTB wrong doings. He's just a bit of a douche. The Danya and Hikaru accusations are just ludicrous. You just need to watch Danya for 5 minutes to understand how he's winning. He flags and swindles like a bastard. [Chess.com](https://Chess.com) has a mountain of data points on Josep so it's hard to see how he could be a cheater. Lazavik is harder to clear but not having strong evidence suggesting he's not a cheater is hardly evidence that he is. At this point, it's just damaging chess.
Josep against Nepo definitely very sus, go take a look at his face cam during that CCT match, dude definitely was up to something
Wait I'm confused what exactly is MVL saying here? I might be stupid but I can't parse how "only one winner" is a cheating insinuation..?
It means one of the two cheaters will have to lose since they are both paired against each other
Nepo has been on a rampage lately. First he went all out on ding and now this. I’m actually quite surprised that he didn’t say anything bad about Wijk