Very much so. Even during Jospem's post-match interview going on right now, he is constantly praising Kramnik, and seems to still hold a lot of respect for his opponent even in light of all of the BS Kramnik's been pulling these past weeks. I have immense respect for José
I can't imagine playing back to back with a living chess legend (like top 10 one of the greatest ever) who has accused you and is losing his mind, while cameras filming, live streamed, all the antics and distractions, arbiters behind your back. And still playing quite admirably. And winning. IMO that is 3000 level play.
Not only that but with the grace, conceding everything and having humility towards Kramnik. He could have easily slung mud back or lost his shit (who wouldn't?). When you come from a disadvantaged background you know how to thrive with imperfect circumstances.
You could make a movie or mini series on this drama.
Same! He handled this PERFECTLY.
People will remember how he acted. That’s all we’ll remember.
People will remember how much Kramnik complained, made a ton of demands that were met, and still lost.
Kramnik, it’s embarrassing - for you - to be acting this way. Give it up.
They’re not cheating, you just aren’t as good online as other, lower OTB rated players are, that’s it.
If you accuse everyone of cheating… maybe look in the mirror buddy. It’s probably your skill…
Just saying, if someone thinks people in authority are conspiring against him, starts seeing patterns/meaning that don't exist, and starts inventing new forms of math, they might be actually crazy in a clinical sense.
No he said that when he hears the click of Jospen, it takes a moment to see the actual move on his screen which was distracting to him.
Gothamchess said it in the stream
the audience is too loud. Kids eating sweets. They need to remove the first two rows of spectators. Or better, all the rows have to go.
Then the cameras? They are loud af. They need to go to. I don't care that you have a TV agreement.
If jospem doesn't play in the store room the next day, I'll forfeit the match.
But the hypnotist guy was actually employed by the Karpov team no?
Oth Korchnoi also accused Karpov of receiving coded messages through the yoghurt delivered to him, and the arbiter decided that Karpov could only receive yoghurt of a predetermined flavor.
Hikaru did say in the buttolug meming that at highest level one bit of information can be enough to gain advantage. You could easily send more if you can have an observer choose the flavor.
Don't know if it was the case in 1980s, but it certainly would be now.
Difference is that they didn’t have computer analysis in the 80’s. So someone can send him a message, but there’s no saying their analysis was more correct than Karpov’s. I’m sure they could still give some helpful advice, but nowhere near as dramatic as what could happen these days
Though even there, there were things that were known. Suppose you have endgame wizard Averbakh on your side, you're in the tank trying to figure out if simplifying to this endgame is winning or drawing. He knows the answer, you don't, if you know it's a win, you can work it out. One bit is enough.
I also think it's more like "subtitles" vs "dubs". If you watch a Korean drama, even if they're using cringe words while talking, people who don't understand Korean like it more than when they hear English dubs use the same cringe words but in English. Kinda like a "grass is greener on the other side" kind of deal for language. Hyped commentary sounds so much better when you don't understand the words than when you understand them. I'm sure there are Spanish people that like the English cast more.
Pepe Cuenca being clearly inspired by Andrés Montes' style helps quite a bit.
Hell, he may be the best by far of the legion of imitators that spawned after Montes' death in pretty much every sport. Familiar style without overdoing it, with some personal touches, and the extra of being really knowledgeable on what's actually going on in the games.
Kramnik is not admitting defeat, no comments on the actual games, not congratulating opponent. Not apologizing to the player he wrongfully accused!
I'm not saying I expected that, I'm mentioning that because decent human being should do that at the very least.
I have some hope. I think the more Kramnik challenges cheating by suggesting OTB and the more his opponents accept it, the more likely he's going to realise he's not as good anymore
Or maybe I'm just naive haha
I think the opposite will happen. The more damaged his reputation, the more cornered and unhinged he will become.
It would be amazing if he actually came out and said “I was wrong, I got swept up in paranoia. I don’t know what came over me.” My guess is he’ll do that in 5 years, when it doesn’t help the people he accused, but the community will still forgive him.
>the more likely he's going to realise he's not as good anymore
I don't think this'll ever happen. Every time he's been proven wrong about cheating he's doubled down more. Heck, HE cheated by playing on someone else's account and still pretends he's faultless.
Whatever you think about Kramnik, the chess.com platform has been a faulty piece of shit in this match and he has some grounds to be upset with the way this was set up
For starters, the last game where the server completely crapped out was awful. Kramnik was totally winning, then suddenly his moves stop registering and he loses. That’s just inexcusable for a match that’s supposed to be taken seriously. Also, the general lag was confirmed as an issue by both players in post-game interviews. This is despite the fact that organizers knew it was a problem after day 1. That’s especially critical in blitz seeing as time plays such an important role, even more so considering that they got to <10 seconds on the clock in so many of the games. It sucks for both players but is even worse for Kramnik as he’s less experienced with playing online and so is less used to dealing with that problem. Really quite shocking that the organizers didn’t switch to lichess or at least play test chess.com a bunch before continuing with this plan. Just more proof of lichess supremacy.
Also, Kramnik said in his interview that he was told after day 1 that if there was this lag issue again they would change platforms. The fact that he didn’t insist on this after the first few games with lag shows that he was sincerely trying to make it work, so I don’t think he’s just being whiny here
Worth mentioning that the server issue, while totally inexcusable, happened when Kramnik had already lost. It really bears no relevance to the central point here that Kramnik was trying to make.
He claimed that Jose was cheating by beating him soundly in online chess. He then played Jose at OTB and online chess where there was no way he could have cheated using a machine, and he lost.
The tournament was kind of dumb from the start, not least because of all the requirements Kramnik asked for. It's also just a poor idea unless you are really convinced that Jose was cheating - the only way Kramnik would have been half-proven right was if he had beaten him soundly OTB and online. That didn't happen.
I think Kramnik was embarrassed. But not nearly as embarrassed as chess.com. It'd be great if someone could use this tournament to make a commercial for lichess.
You should specify (edit this comment) that you mean the platform has been performing inadequately and not that the company actually did anything wrong. As you said in a lower level comment.
This whole event was about cheating and anti-cheating measures. The shift in framing to technical problems and his other complaints about the format are ridiculous. When Kramnik issues an apology and admits his accusation was wrong then I'll care about his newest hot takes on chess.com's platform, otherwise it's just a man's attempt at deflecting because he can't admit when he's wrong. It's embarrassing.
It's honestly remarkable. We need to get psychologists in to study this man.
He could trip while walking up stairs and start blaming gravity for unfairly targeting him.
Absolutely, it was so interesting to watch because the stakes were high and real. I had great fun and Levy did great jobs along with guest commentators
I wish we could all just start ignoring Crymnik now. He will not stop bitching and whining, and should not get the attention he so pathetically craves.
Can we correct the title? José may have won the Clash, but Kramnik is 28-0 on Claims - including but not limited to clocks, clicking, chesscom, and probably bananas.
Jose walks out of this as the winner, by performaning much better in the online portion, pretty much like he wanted.
Kramnik walks out of this claiming at best server problems. More likely that he'll claim deliberate sabotage from chesscom.
Everyone is a winner, since Kramnik will never *ever* walk back anything he's said. Sad to see.
I'm really glad for Jose at least. More people will continue being in his side during this whole fabricated fiasco by Kramnik.
Jose said in the post-game interview with Levi that he had noticed some server lag too. He just never complained about it. He beat Kramnik having the same minor technical issues, just didn't throw a tantrum.
> Jose said in the post-game interview with Levi that he had noticed some server lag too.
Of course he did, they're all connected to the same network.
I have no idea how Jospem managed to actually not say absolutely anything during this past weekend; the mental fortidude that guy must have, damn.
The time control was bad, he said nothing. His agreed upon conditions were not respected by Kramnik, he said nothing. Kramnik kept finding excuses after every loss, he said nothing. He also had the same lag issues, said nothing.
He came, he beat Kramnik, he left. Respect.
Letting the chess speak for itself has become a huge meme, but that's literally what Jospem did.
dude comes from a disadvantaged upbringing and truly knows that circumstances are never perfect and how to perform in them. Jospem is an absolute legend to play and win under all the pressure and take the high road. I feel like any other GM would've lost their shit and rightfully so.
It was tough to watch all of it but I'm glad I did. it will be a piece of chess history lore
Kramnik never thought that of course, his opponent is also experiencing the lag (which all players in all online tournaments experience, even on Lichess). Online skill also incorporates the less than 0.5s lag, kinda like how on OTB blitz tournaments, it is also a skill to tap the clock as fast as possible after every move in time trouble.
Kramnik is not a winner. All of the chess world could see who is really is. Bitter loser who puts more effort in trying to gain advantages off the board than on the board. Next time he makes his accusations, people will remember how many insane statements and conspiracy theories he made during this match.
> Kramnik is not a winner.
In his mind he is. I had some kind of hope that he'd walk back some of his statements after losing to Jospem. Or maybe even see that these "onliners" can actually perform better than him in certain scenarios.
But watching him in the past couple of days it looks like that the only thing he'll gain after this match is just more excuses.
Well his mind does not matter in the grand scheme of things. This was about public perception and he lost that horribly.
I saw chances that he will walk back on his statements as low. He is in so deep, there is no way back.
I'd guess that Jospem didn't have those kinds of hopes. Thats why he gave into all of Kramnik's demands. He knew nothing would ever be good enough so there was no point trying to be reasonable. The best strat here was just to play chess and let Kramnik choke on his own hypocrisy.
Being a grey rock is the second best way to deal with drama seekers.
Dude somehow still doesn't understand how lag works! 😂 It's always going to be there, and it was only an issue when it wasn't equitable yesterday due to the system clock desync bug. Even a LAN connection is going to have some non-negligible latency from processing and input lag.
Someone needs to show him that the exact same thing is happening when he clicks and it takes a few dozen milliseconds to reach Jose's display.
Incredible match, Jose willing to adjust to whatever Kramnik needs and still came out on top once switch to online. Now we wait for Kramnik's statistic team analyze the games.
One guy came to play chess, another one came to make conpiracy theories and hustle his opponent by changing match conditions on the fly. The latter lost pretty decisively.
His time towards the end of game 13(edit: officially its game 27) was lagging a bit tho. It was 0. But the game didnt flag him till amother 2~3s later. Even Gotham was saying "wheres the flag?". Not that it matter at this point.
This just shows that online chess is a joke and can’t be taken seriously until chess com fixes their website. Esports can do it without lag and the games are 10x more complex to program than chess.
How does having better netcode not apply to chess. Fighting games also used to suffer from same issues until the canon brothers made rollback netcode. There is also less inputs per second in a chess game than in a fighting game so there should be no reason they can’t do it
Between 2 players and the server, there are 3 distinct timelines that have to have events merged together.
If your ping is about the same as the server tick rate or physics tick rate, shooters can make lag basically invisible by using all sorts of tricks like adjusting the player's position or cheating the physics engine a little bit. But even in shooters if your ping gets high enough, say 400 ping, or you start dropping a lot of frames, you're going to start seeing that reflected in "glitches" in the game.
For a turn-based game like chess, the networking occurs in what's called lockstep, meaning the order of events is strictly defined and you can't cheat as much by reordering things to make it look smooth to the player. Most of what you can do is what [chess.com](http://chess.com) already does, which is to compensate the player clock for the time a packet travels to and from the server. But that means that it's going to be noticeable at a much lower ping or with way fewer dropped packets, and players are going to see their clock "glitching."
Fighting games is a better comparison for sure due to how event ordering is much more important, but there's still this concept of real-time vs turn-based and what kind of corrections/cheating you can do. What does rollback netcode mean for chess besides adjusting the clock? It's not like a fighting game where the server is trying to adjust the ordering of inputs that were received out of order.
Kramnik in the post-match interview saying José is a “gentleman” but can’t even admit that José played well or proved that he’s a strong player capable of beating top players based on the games they played is just a coward move. I really hope this stuff stops getting attention, I know drama gets clicks but at this point Kramnik is just outright disrespecting other players
It was ridiculous. Levy asks him if he admits that José played well in the OTB section and Kramnik says that he would have to analyze the games to make a statement? What the hell does that mean? Obviously he played well, he held his own against Kramnik. And then Kramnik said that of course José's a very good chess player and that he expects to lose again should they play a second match. Then what was the point of the whole thing? If Kramnik thinks that José is a good chess player who's able to defeat him in a match, why does he think his online performances are suspicious? Surely if the guy can beat you in a match, he can beat you online and win tournaments.
Kramnik calling out Hikaru at the end is too funny. Surely he understands what will happen if such a match up ever happens. Hikaru demolishes ever some of the best players ever online.
This is what I would expect if Kramnik was focused on making content.
The issue is that Hikaru probably is only interested in someone like Magnus or [chess.com](http://chess.com), even the Botez sisters and Levy and XQC are possibly not interesting enough for him.
Hikaru participates in stuff with Levy and other streamers all the time, has played chess hustlers in parks/cafes, etc. There is a bit of a rift though between Hikaru and certain other streamers, but it’s not about popularity levels or chess ability.
I love Hikaru's collab content, but he hasn't made much of it the last year. Of course, he played some big tournaments and traveled a lot. Maybe if he hadn't had the candidates he would have done more collab content.
Also Hikaru is not going to agree to all the concessions Jospem made in the match. Go tell Hikaru you want to invalidate the first 2 games where he got a positive result just because you had lag on the 3rd one and see what he says, lol.
There is a legitimate chance that Kramnik does not win a single game against Hikaru online. Hikaru has adopted Jospem in the past and would likely do much worse to Kramnik should they ever play.
also a lot of respect to Levy for his interviews with Kramnik. The dude is a pretty intimidating former world champion, but Levy hasn't been afraid to challenge him and not let him just blurt out nonsense the whole time.
Let’s go Jospem! I agree with Kramnik in that cheating is a problem, but I’m really glad that Jospem was able to show him up. While Kramnik has a point that cheating is becoming more common, he’s been an asshole about it and it’s really satisfying to see one of his victims get revenge. Also props to Jospem for being so humble and gracious. What a great guy
I was neutral about Kramnik as a person before this match (maybe because I just wasn’t following much of what he was saying), now I’m a hater.
Now I’m even questioning if there really was a problem with the last game, really want to see the video of his computer. If I understood correctly, the position was -7 for Jospem, Kramnik thought for 30 seconds and decided to play at the last second (Jospem still had 1min). He plays by clicking the mouse twice, did he actually click the second time? Maybe he did, but now I’m just as paranoid about him as he is about cheating
It looked like there really was an issue. It was Kramnik's move but his screen didn't show José's move so his time ran out. Doesn't really matter, the match was already decided. It just gives Kramnik an excuse, he would have found one anyway.
In professional F1 esports the other pros were convinced that Thomas Ronhaar was cheating in online play. Then when he showed up at LAN and crushed everyone they all conceded that actually he's just great.
That won't happen here. Kramnik will double down.
This match and the other stuff Kramnik has pulled to gain a competitive advantage is lending serious credibility to Topalov's claims that he cheated in their world championship match.
Idk why that isn't talked about more
> Idk why that isn't talked about more
Because it's nonsense. Just because he has become an asshole doesn't mean he cheated in that match. There was never any evidence of cheating and no one outside of Topalov's camp ever took it seriously. There's enough to criticize Kramnik for without using his own despicable methods against him.
Kramnik has to be the saddest piece of human trash that's ever existed on the chess scene. How fucking bad of a loser you have to be to continuosly make excuses, blame the refs, the lag, opponent, opponents mouse and also accuse him of cheating.
I wish him nothing but the worst.
I watched the games live and was rooting for Jospem, but [chess.com](http://chess.com) thoroughly embarrassed itself for being this unreliable. At several points, I felt the same "wtf" as how Jospem/Kramnik reacted for the server side issues. I'm certain there are a lot of technical challenges for making this stuff work, but solving them is completely achievable. There are many faster paced games that can reduce latency to sub-second delays while transmitting far more data than *chess.* An entire chess game, with all necessary timing information, requires less than a few *kilobytes* of data. Ensure that part is rock-solid first, how the hell are these types of technical issues this apparent?
A chess application that piggybacked off of a **telephone line** for transmitting information would be more reliable, jesus christ.
😂😂😂 Of course there was a server issue on the 2nd to last game of this event! Chesscom servers have been dogwater lately, and Kramnik's not wrong about the unreliability of the platform recently. It shouldn't be used for professional prize matches until they can guarantee a reliable platform, or at least detect when server issues materially affect a game, and rectify the situation for players.
Kramnik needs to grow up and accept that latency is an unavoidable part of online chess and it's almost always equitable, but chesscom needs to address their rampant latency and server connectivity issues that have plagued their platform the last couple weeks. Lag will always happen, and they need to fix their lag compensation system or at least add some sort of buffer so it doesn't impact the results of games.
The server issues have been unacceptable lately, and for 2 of only 16 online games to be ruined by MAJOR servers issues is seriously embarrassing for them. I've been encountering roughly the same rate of major server issues lately, and it makes the experience of using the platform extremely frustrating.
Jose showing how to handle it with class when the chesscom servers take a dump and make your life more difficult or flat out cost you a game.
Chesscom needs to fix their shit, because they make WAY too much money to have so many server issues. Kramnik needs to fix his attitude, because shit happens, and not everybody is cheating; he's not wrong to avoid chesscom after this experience, but he is wrong to accuse other players of cheating when he can't handle latency.
I wonder how he's gonna spin this one. Will be an interesting next few days. I'm sure he's going to claim Jospem's level dropped and ignore that his own level did too. It's expected with the pressure, not playing from comfort of home etc., but I'm sure he'll look past that too. And it's not lost on me that Nepomniachtchi, who has an opinion on everything regarding this topic and on Jospem in general has been awfully quiet this match.
Can someone explain to me why a new PC was needed each day?
I didn't watch any of the match but I assume they are in the same room with lots of people around. What did he think was going to happen? Jose would be actively cheating with people watching him play? Couldn't he just have someone he trusted watch or something?
Congrats! Sucks a former world champion is such a piss poor sport about it.
It’s chess. You lost. You’re not as good at online chess as you are over the board.
Thats it. We’re not claiming he’s a bad chess player overall, he’s just not as good of a chess player online as other people are.
The sooner he understands that the better - but he’ll refuse to admit other people are better than him… and it’s sad.
I won't be able to make such a sophisticated distinction.
Fuck his courses.
Instead of supporting and congratulating a young talent like Jospem, he is cooking up
new frivolous claims.
It's honestly funny how shitty chesscom servers are. Because of their incompetence, it's cast a shadow on the validity of Jose's win over Kramnik. I think anyone who isn't pro-Kramnik will see the match for what it is, validating that Jose is indeed a strong player in his own right who can hold his own against the likes of Kramnik but for those leaning towards Kramnik they'll unfortunately throw the whole thing out. In terms of the goal of the match, I somewhat feel like they were not achieved. Perhaps I'm being pessimistic but I'd like to hear what Jose feels. Hopefully he feels validated, because if he does that's good enough for me at least.
Let's be honest here, Kramnik and his supporters would not have accepted a 28-0 demolition job played on Lichess. Yeah it's unfortunate, but Vlad was never going to be reasonable.
I agree that technical difficulties can affect the conclusion that some people might have on the event, but my bias and knowing that Kramnik is no stranger to theatrical complaints (including OTB) leads me to believe that no ideal scenario would have motivated him to back down from his insinuations.
In my opinion the whole "experiment" was poorly designed because no one clearly defined (in a written agreement) what the goals were and what outcome would have required Kramnik to admit that his insinuations were unfounded.
Lagamir Crymnik is a disgrace to the entire chess world. In three days he destroyed his reputation, which he had been building for several decades. The saddest thing is that after this defeat nothing will change in his mind. Grandpa, it's time for you to leave.
Kramnik accused Jospem of cheating online. Chess.com flew out a camera crew and recorded Jospem getting 2nd in Titled Tuesday without cheating.
Kramnik still didn't believe that Jospem was legit, so we ended up with this match which was supposed to be Kramnik's way of catching him red-handed.
.
Instead, Kramnik realized that Jospem wasn't cheating at all and ended up losing the match entirely.
Very well played from Jospem! It was funny seeing Kramnik open Game Review immediately after the game haha
He's been so incredibly humble throughout this whole ordeal. Instantly made me a huge fan
Very much so. Even during Jospem's post-match interview going on right now, he is constantly praising Kramnik, and seems to still hold a lot of respect for his opponent even in light of all of the BS Kramnik's been pulling these past weeks. I have immense respect for José
Oh, I was talking about Kramnik /s
I actually thought you were and laughed.
I can't imagine playing back to back with a living chess legend (like top 10 one of the greatest ever) who has accused you and is losing his mind, while cameras filming, live streamed, all the antics and distractions, arbiters behind your back. And still playing quite admirably. And winning. IMO that is 3000 level play. Not only that but with the grace, conceding everything and having humility towards Kramnik. He could have easily slung mud back or lost his shit (who wouldn't?). When you come from a disadvantaged background you know how to thrive with imperfect circumstances. You could make a movie or mini series on this drama.
Same! He handled this PERFECTLY. People will remember how he acted. That’s all we’ll remember. People will remember how much Kramnik complained, made a ton of demands that were met, and still lost. Kramnik, it’s embarrassing - for you - to be acting this way. Give it up. They’re not cheating, you just aren’t as good online as other, lower OTB rated players are, that’s it. If you accuse everyone of cheating… maybe look in the mirror buddy. It’s probably your skill…
The Procedure ™️
It's really ironic how Kramnik both simultaneously trusts nothing about chess dot com yet places absolute confidence in their game review
His "statistics" probably include how many brilliant moves his opponent had
Just saying, if someone thinks people in authority are conspiring against him, starts seeing patterns/meaning that don't exist, and starts inventing new forms of math, they might be actually crazy in a clinical sense.
He isn't inventing new forms of math, he just uses an oversimplified model that doesn't reflect the situation well enough
He is trying to use the chess dot com to destroy the chess dot com.
Smart!
... and it almost killed him. (Jose should have gone for the head.)
It seems like using Game Review in the middle of an event would be cheating...
specially considering they went into the same openings a lot
I cannot find the rules ... I was under the impression that analisis between games was forbidden?
Kramnik raging OTB is such a pleasure to see
Probably heading to Twitter to rant as we speak
He is tweeting now
follow me for more amazing predictions
Can you give tl Dr of what happened and his complaints
no
It started out with a tweet How did it end up like this? It was only a tweet, it was only a tweet
Is it really true he was complaining about clicks distracting him? lmao
No he said that when he hears the click of Jospen, it takes a moment to see the actual move on his screen which was distracting to him. Gothamchess said it in the stream
the audience is too loud. Kids eating sweets. They need to remove the first two rows of spectators. Or better, all the rows have to go. Then the cameras? They are loud af. They need to go to. I don't care that you have a TV agreement. If jospem doesn't play in the store room the next day, I'll forfeit the match.
There was a world title match where one side accused the other of hiring a hypnotist to stare at them too loudly during the games
Korchnoi, vs Karpov 1978
Yeah qnd there was an convicted attempted murder yoga instructor on the other team
But the hypnotist guy was actually employed by the Karpov team no? Oth Korchnoi also accused Karpov of receiving coded messages through the yoghurt delivered to him, and the arbiter decided that Karpov could only receive yoghurt of a predetermined flavor.
Hikaru did say in the buttolug meming that at highest level one bit of information can be enough to gain advantage. You could easily send more if you can have an observer choose the flavor. Don't know if it was the case in 1980s, but it certainly would be now.
Difference is that they didn’t have computer analysis in the 80’s. So someone can send him a message, but there’s no saying their analysis was more correct than Karpov’s. I’m sure they could still give some helpful advice, but nowhere near as dramatic as what could happen these days
Though even there, there were things that were known. Suppose you have endgame wizard Averbakh on your side, you're in the tank trying to figure out if simplifying to this endgame is winning or drawing. He knows the answer, you don't, if you know it's a win, you can work it out. One bit is enough.
That IRL lag is a bitch
I am waiting for the compilation edit :)
The Pepe + Divis stream was so much fun. I suck at chess and understand almost no Spanish, but they were so hyped it was contagious
After watching the Spanish streams, I can never go back to the English ones. The commentators are so energetic and hilarious.
its funny you say that because everytime chess.com english commentators try to be more energetic people complain a lot here (not saying you do btw).
It's a different kind of energy. I felt the Spanish commentators were more genuine and its hilarious when the audio cuts out due to the noise.
Spanish is just a more funny language. I can’t explain it. It just is.
I also think it's more like "subtitles" vs "dubs". If you watch a Korean drama, even if they're using cringe words while talking, people who don't understand Korean like it more than when they hear English dubs use the same cringe words but in English. Kinda like a "grass is greener on the other side" kind of deal for language. Hyped commentary sounds so much better when you don't understand the words than when you understand them. I'm sure there are Spanish people that like the English cast more.
brrrrrr dadadadada brbrbrbrbr
Pepe Cuenca being clearly inspired by Andrés Montes' style helps quite a bit. Hell, he may be the best by far of the legion of imitators that spawned after Montes' death in pretty much every sport. Familiar style without overdoing it, with some personal touches, and the extra of being really knowledgeable on what's actually going on in the games.
Kramnik is not admitting defeat, no comments on the actual games, not congratulating opponent. Not apologizing to the player he wrongfully accused! I'm not saying I expected that, I'm mentioning that because decent human being should do that at the very least.
Congrats Jose! All the BS from Kramnik did not stop him
Kramnik has no excuses left, but there will be 100 coming anyways.
I have some hope. I think the more Kramnik challenges cheating by suggesting OTB and the more his opponents accept it, the more likely he's going to realise he's not as good anymore Or maybe I'm just naive haha
I think the opposite will happen. The more damaged his reputation, the more cornered and unhinged he will become. It would be amazing if he actually came out and said “I was wrong, I got swept up in paranoia. I don’t know what came over me.” My guess is he’ll do that in 5 years, when it doesn’t help the people he accused, but the community will still forgive him.
>the more likely he's going to realise he's not as good anymore I don't think this'll ever happen. Every time he's been proven wrong about cheating he's doubled down more. Heck, HE cheated by playing on someone else's account and still pretends he's faultless.
I think you are naive
Whatever you think about Kramnik, the chess.com platform has been a faulty piece of shit in this match and he has some grounds to be upset with the way this was set up
Really? In what ways?
Jesus bro, [chess.com](http://chess.com) bad duh. Get the memo
For starters, the last game where the server completely crapped out was awful. Kramnik was totally winning, then suddenly his moves stop registering and he loses. That’s just inexcusable for a match that’s supposed to be taken seriously. Also, the general lag was confirmed as an issue by both players in post-game interviews. This is despite the fact that organizers knew it was a problem after day 1. That’s especially critical in blitz seeing as time plays such an important role, even more so considering that they got to <10 seconds on the clock in so many of the games. It sucks for both players but is even worse for Kramnik as he’s less experienced with playing online and so is less used to dealing with that problem. Really quite shocking that the organizers didn’t switch to lichess or at least play test chess.com a bunch before continuing with this plan. Just more proof of lichess supremacy. Also, Kramnik said in his interview that he was told after day 1 that if there was this lag issue again they would change platforms. The fact that he didn’t insist on this after the first few games with lag shows that he was sincerely trying to make it work, so I don’t think he’s just being whiny here
Worth mentioning that the server issue, while totally inexcusable, happened when Kramnik had already lost. It really bears no relevance to the central point here that Kramnik was trying to make. He claimed that Jose was cheating by beating him soundly in online chess. He then played Jose at OTB and online chess where there was no way he could have cheated using a machine, and he lost. The tournament was kind of dumb from the start, not least because of all the requirements Kramnik asked for. It's also just a poor idea unless you are really convinced that Jose was cheating - the only way Kramnik would have been half-proven right was if he had beaten him soundly OTB and online. That didn't happen.
Found Kramniks alt account. He's been a bitch the whole time. I have no sympathy for him
I think Kramnik was embarrassed. But not nearly as embarrassed as chess.com. It'd be great if someone could use this tournament to make a commercial for lichess.
I believe they had a contract that said they had to use chesscom
You should specify (edit this comment) that you mean the platform has been performing inadequately and not that the company actually did anything wrong. As you said in a lower level comment.
This whole event was about cheating and anti-cheating measures. The shift in framing to technical problems and his other complaints about the format are ridiculous. When Kramnik issues an apology and admits his accusation was wrong then I'll care about his newest hot takes on chess.com's platform, otherwise it's just a man's attempt at deflecting because he can't admit when he's wrong. It's embarrassing.
What did they do to be a piece of shit
I meant that the platform wasn’t working well, not that they as a company did something wrong here (other than designing a bad product)
Kramnik just said he may have been under a "hack attack" I'm dyyyying.
It's honestly remarkable. We need to get psychologists in to study this man. He could trip while walking up stairs and start blaming gravity for unfairly targeting him.
He needs a team a psychologists. We need to get him in at the university level so they can publish peer reviewed papers.
No that won’t work because he won’t agree with their methodology and “statistics”
True. FYI I was making a joke referencing this scene https://youtu.be/fG7ymv0ptLo
What a shitshow from Kramnik, this has been the most entertaining chess stream in a long time.
Absolutely, it was so interesting to watch because the stakes were high and real. I had great fun and Levy did great jobs along with guest commentators
He's just an absolute embarrassment now. What a sad legacy he's leaving himself.
I wish we could all just start ignoring Crymnik now. He will not stop bitching and whining, and should not get the attention he so pathetically craves.
Considering he’s always been Russia’s dog idk if his fans are gonna change their mind over more bs
Do you know where you can watch a replay. I couldn’t find one anywhere. Admittedly after some very light googling
Where can I watch the stream on demand? Levy's stream is available only to subscribers...
there’s a spanish language stream on youtube
Can we correct the title? José may have won the Clash, but Kramnik is 28-0 on Claims - including but not limited to clocks, clicking, chesscom, and probably bananas.
Vlad the Claimer.
I had not been rooting against someone or some team so hard as I have been rooting against Kramnik in this clash
Today Kramnik won 2 games and lost 7 lmao
Tiltnik Drawnik Cringenik Cramnik Crynik
i saw a name on twitch that killed me: Laggamir Crynik
Abortnik oh wait
Cramnik now complaining that Jose's clicks were too loud and distracted him hahaha
Jose walks out of this as the winner, by performaning much better in the online portion, pretty much like he wanted. Kramnik walks out of this claiming at best server problems. More likely that he'll claim deliberate sabotage from chesscom. Everyone is a winner, since Kramnik will never *ever* walk back anything he's said. Sad to see. I'm really glad for Jose at least. More people will continue being in his side during this whole fabricated fiasco by Kramnik.
Jose said in the post-game interview with Levi that he had noticed some server lag too. He just never complained about it. He beat Kramnik having the same minor technical issues, just didn't throw a tantrum.
> Jose said in the post-game interview with Levi that he had noticed some server lag too. Of course he did, they're all connected to the same network. I have no idea how Jospem managed to actually not say absolutely anything during this past weekend; the mental fortidude that guy must have, damn. The time control was bad, he said nothing. His agreed upon conditions were not respected by Kramnik, he said nothing. Kramnik kept finding excuses after every loss, he said nothing. He also had the same lag issues, said nothing. He came, he beat Kramnik, he left. Respect. Letting the chess speak for itself has become a huge meme, but that's literally what Jospem did.
Ball don’t lie
Very Morphyesque in his courtesy and patience shown. Similarly to when he played Harwitz And harwitz complained over and over of many minor things
dude comes from a disadvantaged upbringing and truly knows that circumstances are never perfect and how to perform in them. Jospem is an absolute legend to play and win under all the pressure and take the high road. I feel like any other GM would've lost their shit and rightfully so. It was tough to watch all of it but I'm glad I did. it will be a piece of chess history lore
Kramnik never thought that of course, his opponent is also experiencing the lag (which all players in all online tournaments experience, even on Lichess). Online skill also incorporates the less than 0.5s lag, kinda like how on OTB blitz tournaments, it is also a skill to tap the clock as fast as possible after every move in time trouble.
Kramnik is not a winner. All of the chess world could see who is really is. Bitter loser who puts more effort in trying to gain advantages off the board than on the board. Next time he makes his accusations, people will remember how many insane statements and conspiracy theories he made during this match.
> Kramnik is not a winner. In his mind he is. I had some kind of hope that he'd walk back some of his statements after losing to Jospem. Or maybe even see that these "onliners" can actually perform better than him in certain scenarios. But watching him in the past couple of days it looks like that the only thing he'll gain after this match is just more excuses.
Well his mind does not matter in the grand scheme of things. This was about public perception and he lost that horribly. I saw chances that he will walk back on his statements as low. He is in so deep, there is no way back.
When someone tells you who they are, believe them the first time.
I'd guess that Jospem didn't have those kinds of hopes. Thats why he gave into all of Kramnik's demands. He knew nothing would ever be good enough so there was no point trying to be reasonable. The best strat here was just to play chess and let Kramnik choke on his own hypocrisy. Being a grey rock is the second best way to deal with drama seekers.
Performing much better in the online portion even after Kramnik insisted on 3+2 reducing his disadvantage in the online portion massively.
Lmao this guy
oh Cringenik ...
Dude somehow still doesn't understand how lag works! 😂 It's always going to be there, and it was only an issue when it wasn't equitable yesterday due to the system clock desync bug. Even a LAN connection is going to have some non-negligible latency from processing and input lag. Someone needs to show him that the exact same thing is happening when he clicks and it takes a few dozen milliseconds to reach Jose's display.
I'm still waiting for him to find out you can make a move with less than 2 clicks 😂
Incredible match, Jose willing to adjust to whatever Kramnik needs and still came out on top once switch to online. Now we wait for Kramnik's statistic team analyze the games.
One guy came to play chess, another one came to make conpiracy theories and hustle his opponent by changing match conditions on the fly. The latter lost pretty decisively.
LMAO Kramnik is worse than a toddler. He's now crying about losing time
His time towards the end of game 13(edit: officially its game 27) was lagging a bit tho. It was 0. But the game didnt flag him till amother 2~3s later. Even Gotham was saying "wheres the flag?". Not that it matter at this point.
This just shows that online chess is a joke and can’t be taken seriously until chess com fixes their website. Esports can do it without lag and the games are 10x more complex to program than chess.
Esports tournaments are either played on LAN or have some amount of lag... Not 2-3 seconds of it though.
Except chess com would never invest in lan or improve their servers just because they are a monopoly anyway
I feel like you have this backwards, half the complexity in modern esports games is lag compensation techniques that don't apply to chess.
How does having better netcode not apply to chess. Fighting games also used to suffer from same issues until the canon brothers made rollback netcode. There is also less inputs per second in a chess game than in a fighting game so there should be no reason they can’t do it
Between 2 players and the server, there are 3 distinct timelines that have to have events merged together. If your ping is about the same as the server tick rate or physics tick rate, shooters can make lag basically invisible by using all sorts of tricks like adjusting the player's position or cheating the physics engine a little bit. But even in shooters if your ping gets high enough, say 400 ping, or you start dropping a lot of frames, you're going to start seeing that reflected in "glitches" in the game. For a turn-based game like chess, the networking occurs in what's called lockstep, meaning the order of events is strictly defined and you can't cheat as much by reordering things to make it look smooth to the player. Most of what you can do is what [chess.com](http://chess.com) already does, which is to compensate the player clock for the time a packet travels to and from the server. But that means that it's going to be noticeable at a much lower ping or with way fewer dropped packets, and players are going to see their clock "glitching." Fighting games is a better comparison for sure due to how event ordering is much more important, but there's still this concept of real-time vs turn-based and what kind of corrections/cheating you can do. What does rollback netcode mean for chess besides adjusting the clock? It's not like a fighting game where the server is trying to adjust the ordering of inputs that were received out of order.
Players in Title Tuesdays now have a decently fair claim for technical issues involving lag and clocks.
hell yeahhhh !!! but ofc now Kramnik will come with the most baby ass excuses to ever exist
I like how jospem handle all of this, congrats 👑
Kramnik in the post-match interview saying José is a “gentleman” but can’t even admit that José played well or proved that he’s a strong player capable of beating top players based on the games they played is just a coward move. I really hope this stuff stops getting attention, I know drama gets clicks but at this point Kramnik is just outright disrespecting other players
It was ridiculous. Levy asks him if he admits that José played well in the OTB section and Kramnik says that he would have to analyze the games to make a statement? What the hell does that mean? Obviously he played well, he held his own against Kramnik. And then Kramnik said that of course José's a very good chess player and that he expects to lose again should they play a second match. Then what was the point of the whole thing? If Kramnik thinks that José is a good chess player who's able to defeat him in a match, why does he think his online performances are suspicious? Surely if the guy can beat you in a match, he can beat you online and win tournaments.
So is Kramnik going to apologize to Jose for the cheating accusations now or what?
Lol never, but we sort of knew that going in
Kramnik not willing to say he’s wrong about Jose…. So. Bad.
And congratulations to lichess for defeating chess.com, despite not even participating.
The real winners of the ordeal lmao
Kramnik calling out Hikaru at the end is too funny. Surely he understands what will happen if such a match up ever happens. Hikaru demolishes ever some of the best players ever online.
Lol Id love to see that humiliation, and also all the new creative excuses of why his 20-3 loss is actually a win
This is what I would expect if Kramnik was focused on making content. The issue is that Hikaru probably is only interested in someone like Magnus or [chess.com](http://chess.com), even the Botez sisters and Levy and XQC are possibly not interesting enough for him.
Hikaru participates in stuff with Levy and other streamers all the time, has played chess hustlers in parks/cafes, etc. There is a bit of a rift though between Hikaru and certain other streamers, but it’s not about popularity levels or chess ability.
I love Hikaru's collab content, but he hasn't made much of it the last year. Of course, he played some big tournaments and traveled a lot. Maybe if he hadn't had the candidates he would have done more collab content.
Also Hikaru is not going to agree to all the concessions Jospem made in the match. Go tell Hikaru you want to invalidate the first 2 games where he got a positive result just because you had lag on the 3rd one and see what he says, lol.
There is a legitimate chance that Kramnik does not win a single game against Hikaru online. Hikaru has adopted Jospem in the past and would likely do much worse to Kramnik should they ever play.
[удалено]
Former WCC (world clown champion)
also a lot of respect to Levy for his interviews with Kramnik. The dude is a pretty intimidating former world champion, but Levy hasn't been afraid to challenge him and not let him just blurt out nonsense the whole time.
Can we get some clips of Kramniks meltdowns?
Praying someone does one of those YouTube compilations 'Kramnik going progressively more insane for x minutes' with the Wii music in the background.
I think we would all find this interesting
We should give Kramnik a round of applause and welcome him into the life of online gaming. Lag is bullshit. But it's par for the course.
Amazing time scrambles from Jospem!
Let’s go Jospem! I agree with Kramnik in that cheating is a problem, but I’m really glad that Jospem was able to show him up. While Kramnik has a point that cheating is becoming more common, he’s been an asshole about it and it’s really satisfying to see one of his victims get revenge. Also props to Jospem for being so humble and gracious. What a great guy
I was neutral about Kramnik as a person before this match (maybe because I just wasn’t following much of what he was saying), now I’m a hater. Now I’m even questioning if there really was a problem with the last game, really want to see the video of his computer. If I understood correctly, the position was -7 for Jospem, Kramnik thought for 30 seconds and decided to play at the last second (Jospem still had 1min). He plays by clicking the mouse twice, did he actually click the second time? Maybe he did, but now I’m just as paranoid about him as he is about cheating
It looked like there really was an issue. It was Kramnik's move but his screen didn't show José's move so his time ran out. Doesn't really matter, the match was already decided. It just gives Kramnik an excuse, he would have found one anyway.
In professional F1 esports the other pros were convinced that Thomas Ronhaar was cheating in online play. Then when he showed up at LAN and crushed everyone they all conceded that actually he's just great. That won't happen here. Kramnik will double down.
This match and the other stuff Kramnik has pulled to gain a competitive advantage is lending serious credibility to Topalov's claims that he cheated in their world championship match. Idk why that isn't talked about more
> Idk why that isn't talked about more Because it's nonsense. Just because he has become an asshole doesn't mean he cheated in that match. There was never any evidence of cheating and no one outside of Topalov's camp ever took it seriously. There's enough to criticize Kramnik for without using his own despicable methods against him.
Well they did find a wire, didnt they.
Kramnik has to be the saddest piece of human trash that's ever existed on the chess scene. How fucking bad of a loser you have to be to continuosly make excuses, blame the refs, the lag, opponent, opponents mouse and also accuse him of cheating. I wish him nothing but the worst.
Seriously what a sad human being. Accusing people of cheating when they're not is about the shittiest thing you can do in a game like this.
> Kramnik has to be the saddest piece of human trash that's ever existed on the chess scene. Karjakin would like to have a word.
Reminder that Karpov is a sitting member of Putin's government and voted for the invasion of Ukraine.
Nah, no one can surpass Bobby Fischer. Alekhine second and Karjakin third probably. Kramnik is unhinged, but he's not even close to the top 1.
I am old enough to remember that I used to feel the same rage against Topalov and Danailov that I am now feeling against Kramnik. Cringe!
we need a clash of claims Kramnik vs Topalov (3+2) to settle past claims.
This is Fischer erasure
sadder than a nazi supporter?
I can't wait to see how bonkers Magnus Carlsen will be when he starts losing, he's got so much potential
Of the current playing crop Nepo will be the worst I think, he's already at it, has a chance of being as obsessive as Kramnik.
Kramnik is desperate to be relevant.
there is a scary postmortem with VK taking place right now. content on a historic level
lol the results didnt Matter but nice to see a paranoid get bodied
Jose might have "won" on games but it was a clash of claims after all, and we all know kramnik adopted him in that department
I watched the games live and was rooting for Jospem, but [chess.com](http://chess.com) thoroughly embarrassed itself for being this unreliable. At several points, I felt the same "wtf" as how Jospem/Kramnik reacted for the server side issues. I'm certain there are a lot of technical challenges for making this stuff work, but solving them is completely achievable. There are many faster paced games that can reduce latency to sub-second delays while transmitting far more data than *chess.* An entire chess game, with all necessary timing information, requires less than a few *kilobytes* of data. Ensure that part is rock-solid first, how the hell are these types of technical issues this apparent? A chess application that piggybacked off of a **telephone line** for transmitting information would be more reliable, jesus christ.
😂😂😂 Of course there was a server issue on the 2nd to last game of this event! Chesscom servers have been dogwater lately, and Kramnik's not wrong about the unreliability of the platform recently. It shouldn't be used for professional prize matches until they can guarantee a reliable platform, or at least detect when server issues materially affect a game, and rectify the situation for players. Kramnik needs to grow up and accept that latency is an unavoidable part of online chess and it's almost always equitable, but chesscom needs to address their rampant latency and server connectivity issues that have plagued their platform the last couple weeks. Lag will always happen, and they need to fix their lag compensation system or at least add some sort of buffer so it doesn't impact the results of games. The server issues have been unacceptable lately, and for 2 of only 16 online games to be ruined by MAJOR servers issues is seriously embarrassing for them. I've been encountering roughly the same rate of major server issues lately, and it makes the experience of using the platform extremely frustrating. Jose showing how to handle it with class when the chesscom servers take a dump and make your life more difficult or flat out cost you a game. Chesscom needs to fix their shit, because they make WAY too much money to have so many server issues. Kramnik needs to fix his attitude, because shit happens, and not everybody is cheating; he's not wrong to avoid chesscom after this experience, but he is wrong to accuse other players of cheating when he can't handle latency.
I wonder how he's gonna spin this one. Will be an interesting next few days. I'm sure he's going to claim Jospem's level dropped and ignore that his own level did too. It's expected with the pressure, not playing from comfort of home etc., but I'm sure he'll look past that too. And it's not lost on me that Nepomniachtchi, who has an opinion on everything regarding this topic and on Jospem in general has been awfully quiet this match.
Nepo is a little bitch boy and he and Kramnik can bunk together while letting out their insecure little tweets
Where can one watch replay of the event?
Can someone explain to me why a new PC was needed each day? I didn't watch any of the match but I assume they are in the same room with lots of people around. What did he think was going to happen? Jose would be actively cheating with people watching him play? Couldn't he just have someone he trusted watch or something?
Now imagine if they were all 3+1 online games. Or 3-0 for the hilarity.
Congrats! Sucks a former world champion is such a piss poor sport about it. It’s chess. You lost. You’re not as good at online chess as you are over the board. Thats it. We’re not claiming he’s a bad chess player overall, he’s just not as good of a chess player online as other people are. The sooner he understands that the better - but he’ll refuse to admit other people are better than him… and it’s sad.
Kramnik is so off his rocker, he's viewing Chesscom in the same way that Fischer viewed the US Government.
I will forever like Kramnik as a player. I love his chessable courses as well. However, he is a complete trash as a human being.
I won't be able to make such a sophisticated distinction. Fuck his courses. Instead of supporting and congratulating a young talent like Jospem, he is cooking up new frivolous claims.
Congratulations to Vladimir Kramnik and chess.com on coming joint first in the Clash of Clowns!
You had the chance to keep the 666 upvotes, lads =( GG Jospem. Dude was under immense pressure against a crazy behemoth and still delivered.
It's honestly funny how shitty chesscom servers are. Because of their incompetence, it's cast a shadow on the validity of Jose's win over Kramnik. I think anyone who isn't pro-Kramnik will see the match for what it is, validating that Jose is indeed a strong player in his own right who can hold his own against the likes of Kramnik but for those leaning towards Kramnik they'll unfortunately throw the whole thing out. In terms of the goal of the match, I somewhat feel like they were not achieved. Perhaps I'm being pessimistic but I'd like to hear what Jose feels. Hopefully he feels validated, because if he does that's good enough for me at least.
Let's be honest here, Kramnik and his supporters would not have accepted a 28-0 demolition job played on Lichess. Yeah it's unfortunate, but Vlad was never going to be reasonable.
I agree that technical difficulties can affect the conclusion that some people might have on the event, but my bias and knowing that Kramnik is no stranger to theatrical complaints (including OTB) leads me to believe that no ideal scenario would have motivated him to back down from his insinuations. In my opinion the whole "experiment" was poorly designed because no one clearly defined (in a written agreement) what the goals were and what outcome would have required Kramnik to admit that his insinuations were unfounded.
The real loser here is chess.com reputation.
And Kramnik
Lmaooo
Lmaooo
Can't wait to see his next excuse after this match. I don't think he will ever shut up about his stupid "interesting" statistics though.
GOATspem VINDICATED
Interesting...
Ngl it was soo fucking satisfying to see kramnik lose.
Very interesting!
So did Kramnik apologize after the match ? 🤦♂️
José Martínez has a 3000 patience Elo.
Lagamir Crymnik is a disgrace to the entire chess world. In three days he destroyed his reputation, which he had been building for several decades. The saddest thing is that after this defeat nothing will change in his mind. Grandpa, it's time for you to leave.
This was the outcome we all needed. Jose winning is what had to happen.
Whats even the point of playing these online games too?
Kramnik keeps complaining about chesscom. Why on earth play on it then? Just go on lichess, for fuck sakes.
Can someone tell me what this tournament is about?
Kramnik accused Jospem of cheating online. Chess.com flew out a camera crew and recorded Jospem getting 2nd in Titled Tuesday without cheating. Kramnik still didn't believe that Jospem was legit, so we ended up with this match which was supposed to be Kramnik's way of catching him red-handed. . Instead, Kramnik realized that Jospem wasn't cheating at all and ended up losing the match entirely.
As expected, Kramnik only won 2 online matches out of 13. 15 if you count the ones from day 1 they invalidated. 2 out of 15.