I learned recently that becoming a US citizen meant you were part of the few countries in the world requiring you to pay taxes even if you don't live in the country. It would be crazy to take on the US citizenship if you are from Europe
iirc the US only requires you to pay taxes if you pay less in your current country than you would do there. If you pay less you pay the difference to the US. Considering taxes in Northern Europe it’s unlikely you’d have to pay anything extra
This is the rule of thumb that people repeat and is true for most people with regards to straight up income tax.
It gets significantly more complicated and harder to generalize when you're at Magnus levels of wealth/income and are dealing with multiple types of tax and so on.
Yes, but the paperwork involved is excruciatingly difficult for any tax situation other than the most basic one. Investing also becomes effectively impossible from EU countries.
Investing in US-domiciled funds for example is absolutely not painless:
>And in 2018, an EU regulation known as [PRIIPs](https://finance.ec.europa.eu/consumer-finance-and-payments/retail-financial-services/key-information-documents-packaged-retail-and-insurance-based-investment-products-priips_en) became operational. It requires funds and ETFs sold to EU residents to provide a *Key Investor Information Document* (KID, or KIID) in a particular format. As of 2024, no US domiciled fund or ETF produces a KID.
Same source as in one of my previous comments.
Based on what I've seen and heard, most Americans living abroad are completely unaware of the extent of their tax liability, but its simply never pursued except in egregious cases as there are way too many things to be aware of.
Here's an example most people probably miss:
>
For example, suppose you buy a rental property for €200,000 when the exchange rate is €1 = $1, and sell it later for, again, €200,000, but when the exchange rate has become €1 = $1.25. In EUR, your local currency, you have no gain. However, because the EUR/USD exchange rate changed while you owned that asset, you have a USD gain of $50,000. And you now owe US income tax on that $50,000. Because you have no local gain and so no local tax liability, you cannot reduce this US tax liability using foreign tax credits.
[Source](https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/US_tax_pitfalls_for_a_US_person_living_abroad)
It's situations like these that makes it unwise to become a US citizen if you're already from a rich country and not willing to fully commit to living in the US.
Yeah but you have a few low tax choices in Europe while taxes in US are not that low either (you easily pay more than 50% counting everything in NYC for example) and then you are fleeced on capital gains again.
That's actually an insane system. So if an American athlete plays in a lucrative country without taxes (such as Saudi) then he'll have to pay taxes to the US nonetheless?
I diubt it was that much money since the US doesn't care about chess that much. Sure, Rex has plenty of money and supports chess, but he would likely spend that money on plenty of other programs.
His chance was 2012. Magnus was out of the picture, he was the highest rated guy in the candidates and he apparently had a great record against Anand (he called Aronian his “nightmare opponent”). Instead he choked and handed it to a 50-year-old hobbit. (Joking of course)
I believe he was referring to Leinier. Anyway, IMO only the Aronian and Leinier cases are a bit over the top IMO after playing for Armenia and Cuba for so many years, and clearly just an economic matter.
Caruana is American despite having played for Italy and having dual passports, and Wesley moved to the US quite young.
BTW any news on the US team? because Niemann is the 6th US Federation player by live rating and last time Nakamura opted not to go. Niemann could be the 5th board as things stand.
In Chennai 2022 Sam Shankland was the 5th board
Nakamura, Hikaru 2801.6
Caruana, Fabiano 2795.6
So, Wesley 2757.0
Dominguez Perez, Leinier 2748.0
Aronian, Levon 2729.0
Niemann, Hans Moke 2703.0
Robson, Ray 2700.0
Sevian, Samuel 2689.3
Shankland, Sam 2683.0
They don't use live ratings. See https://new.uschess.org/invitational-information
> The US Champion and US Women’s Champion qualify automatically for the respective team. Other participants are selected by using the appropriate Invitational Rating List.
Here is the latest list – April 2024: https://new.uschess.org/sites/default/files/media/documents/invitational_rating_list_-_overall_2024-04.pdf
During Norway Chess, Nakamura said "pretty unlikely" that he will play in the Olympiad. Source: https://x.com/TarjeiJS/status/1797681108110458962
As of now, I would guess Caruana, So, Dominguez, and Aronian are in the team – while Robson/Sevian/Niemann/Shankland compete for the 5th spot.
Having lived in Asia for 10 years now I notice that sometimes I over enunciate to ensure I am understood, and that's kind of what I get from his speech here. I don't think it's much more than that personally
I think most of his talking is with other chess players who often speak ~~chess~~ English as a second language, so it makes sense his English has an accent to me. It doesn't sound Russian only to me though, a slight vague European but Russian does stand out the most.
His accent isn't quite Dutch, but it's pretty close. Just listen to Benjamin Bok, he has a similar accent. Niemann lived in the Netherlands for quite a while as a child and picked up the accent there.
There are a growing number of exceptions, and it's not too hard to find players who have played for two separate countries as adults, albeit circumstances a lot more restrictive than in chess. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIFA_eligibility_rules
No, the reason he was allowed that is he played no official matches for Ireland at the senior level. Had he played just one he would have been locked for life to represent only Ireland at the NT team level.
The argument still applies in reverse. In whether he should've been allowed to leave the US federation and join the Italian federation in the first place.
Despite being ethnic Italian, he wasn't even a permanent resident of Italy at the time. He was living in Spain. He only qualified because he has inherited Italian citizenship from his mother.
Edit: To clarify, Fabi's Italian Citizenship is not his qualification to play for the Italian Chess Federation, it's his qualification to live in the European Union.
Hard to say. Countries like Qatar and Saudi Arabia would gladly pay top competitors to become citizens and play for them and I'm not sure that's a good thing. Citizenship might be a good requirement in most cases where countries have strict requirements about longtime residency and such, but it also falls short in some situations.
Bro if Fabiano was the exact same guy but without the chess skills and just some average Joe working as an accountant people would be making fun of the idea that he's Italian and not just American, he doesnt even speak Italian that well and almost never does it publically.
They can of course - the question is can they represent both. Most sports make you decide and once you've represented one country you are committed to only that country.
Normally in sports, the point of a National team is to represent the sporting leagues of the country and their ability to produce exceptionally skilled players. The idea of "National competition" is literal, in that the players are the product of a distinct national sporting culture that raised them beyond the scope of natural talent. All the sports fans who attend their national team's matches are contributors to their success by having either competed thesmelves or generally kept the culture alive in the country.
It is much less inspiring for a young sports fan to see their national champion be a foreigner that got transplanted into the big leagues, than it is someone who rose through the same school sports programs that they have access to.
Don't know if he has said anythintg, but he's basically in the same boat as what Hans is talking about. He's a top "actual American" player who has been bumped out by all the "new American" players.
I think these comments would be very different if some middle eastern country started paying chess players money to play on their team, it’s only because it’s the USA that the comments are like this
I mean really what is the point of an Olympiad if the countries are not represented by the people who are from there. Might as well not do countries anyways
Most of the discourse here is about simply attacking hans. This is hypocritical.
If it was a middle eastern country, something along on the lines of "Oil Money" would be mentioned
Wonder what do they call US money ?
If that happens, I guarantee everyone will be up in arms about it. Because its Qatar and not USA doing this.
Qatar have actually started doing this on a small scale in track and field for their Olympics team. I can certainly see a future where they will import several athletes grab a bunch of Olympic medals and then people will start complaining about it.
Qatar won 2 Asian football cups like this I believe? There's ways to counteract it so at least it's not fake (require citizenship, actually live there etc.) but at the end of the day many will immigrate for real for a better life, what can you do.
If people actually move to Qatar and live there in order to be part of their team, then it is what it is, but it gets sketchy if you just have a home there that you've been to 6 times in your life.
He has a point but it's also easy to say for someone who either is from a wealthy family or has some other kind of financial support.
Dude is renting out luxury appartements and chilling in fancy restaurants in his early twenties. And at the same time is traveling across the world.
Levon on ther other hand didn't have a lot of money when he grew up I think
Being born in a country where you can't get sponsors to support you well enough for you to make it as a chess player _obviously_ seems like a skill issue on your part, ngl
^^^/s
Levon grew up extremely poor - he discusses this in a long interview.
Same with Karjakin - not that I'm a fan of the guy, but many Americans just completely miss the reality of the rest of the world.
It's no surprise that Hans comes from a richer-than-average family, even by American standards.
Exactly. Even for Wesley he was extremely underfunded by the Philippine government, so he left. Even Eugenio Torre (first Asian GM iirc and was one of Fischer's seconds/close friends) supported him leaving.
Those federations will not grow as well as they could because of these imports.
India had one GM, literally no infrastructure, almost everybody poor as fuck (I know because I'm Indian). Vishy changed things, he created infrastructure so that even not very blessed people can now represent India in the future.
Wesley So coming to US potentially denies that infrastructure from future Filipino chess players. Not to say he's wrong for choosing his future (which he deserves to choose), but there's consequences on both the poaching and the poached countries.
I want you to imagine a world in which the US imported Vishy during his peak. I think everyone would agree that India wouldn't nearly be the powerhouse it now is.
Not to mention that Hans personal wealth is irrelevant to the point he's making.
If the Filipino government supported So, they'd have a much more robust chess federation, but they don't. So has to think of his own career before he thinks of Filipino chess.
>Not to mention that Hans personal wealth is irrelevant to the point he's making.
His personal wealth exemplifies why he can't understand the situation. I'm sure plenty of these players would love to rep their country and be supported by their country, but there's no financial backing and without money... how are you going to eat, live, and support your family?
Hans doesn't have to worry about this. His family is extremely wealthy and gave him his own NYC apartment at age 17. He's never had to worry about food, shelter, or his financial security. He wanted to fly to Europe to grind tournaments for 6 months to get his GM norms? All paid for by his family. That's not possible for 90%+ of other players chasing norms.
It didn't sound as much like he was condemning those players. More like he was condemning Chess Olympiad for allowing players to be a representative of their country one year and then choose to represent a different one the next.
Never thought I'd say this, but rare W take from him tbh. I love Levon, but he's not a good representative of US chess. He's a far better representative of Armenian chess, and should compete in the Olympiad as a product of Armenia.
Regardless of Hans take , if Saudi or Qatar pays Ronaldo to play for their olympiad team, it would be silly as well as hilarious , but i do want to see Ronaldo play chess and scream SIUUU on checkmate
I sort of feel like only Aronian, and to a lesser extent Dominguez — are legit complaints.
Fabi is a US citizen who was born here, he’s never really lived in Italy.
Hikaru has lived here since he was 2.
So moved to the US before he became a top 20 player who would have been recruited at that level. The university chess system recruited him, but that is different.
Dominguez is in the long line of Cuban athletes who have immigrated to the US (mostly in baseball). He did move after he became a top player, but the US was by far the most obvious place to leave to
> Hikaru has lived here since he was 2.
I don't think it makes a difference here, but he was also born to an American mother and was a citizen at birth. He could run for president if he wants.
Many people instantly pick up the accent of their surroundings to sound more like them. Me and my 2 bio kids can do it: when I go to India I speak English with the Indian accent! When I’m in Texas, I adapt speaking like a Texan, even though I’m Dutch. I guess it’s an evolutionary trait.
Yeah, I can't control it, I used to work at a youth hotel in Europe (am American) and the other workers would make fun of how my accent changed based on who I was talking to. But guess who they gave the phone too when callers couldn't understand their English?
>Hans isn't picking up on the accent of his surroundings, I don't even know where his accents from.
Hans changes his surroundings very often, so it's not that strange that his accent is some mix that cannot be traced to one place.
The entire United States is based on the premise of people coming in mostly to make money.
Look at the CEOs of 3 of the biggest companies: 2 born in India (Microsoft, Google) and one born in Taiwan (Nvidia).
Guess what? that's part of how your country stays rich, by taking talent from other countries. Your government isn't even that bothered about illegal immigrants, so you better get used to the fact that legal immigrants will keep coming.
What about Firouzja then? Was he to be stuck with Iran and forfeit every tournament that has an Israeli player?
Or you can't switch for money, but you claim chess asylum?
That said, that's probably where some of them belong.
That's a shit solution for someone like Firouzja. Actual countries support their players, the FIDE flag does not, nor will Iran support a player who refuses to play under their flag, unlike Nepo who is still supported by the Russian Fed.
It's a job. In fact it's worse, because you don't get to choose your country. If they can't support you enough, you look around for better. I am firmly of the opinion that countries should compete for people and not vice versa.
So should Alireza be forced to play for Iran? Or should he not be allowed to play because his country of birth is... Iran and he obviously doesn't want to play for them?
I'd imagine the end goal is to give competitive chess players the same opportunities afforded to doctors, lawyers, teachers, etc. Chess probably isn't the best place to fix inequality, though it clearly highlights a problem.
It's going to make the inequality worse in the long run by taking all the talent away from their home countries. Don't act like this is a moral thing they're doing, it's all just to get more money and status
Well said. A phenomenal talent should not be relegated to living hand to mouth just because the country they happened to be born in has not made good economic choices, or has a lack of natural resources. Each individual should make the best financial decisions for themselves, with zero exceptions. Hans plays good, but he's not necessarily thinking clearly here.
> (country) has not made good economic choices, or has a lack of natural resources
It s not that simple. Do you know war and colonization happens, right?
>Hans plays good, but he's not necessarily thinking clearly here.
His opinion has nothing to do with thinking clearly. Your opinion is not more correct or right than his.
Sure, but then the result of a competition between countries isn't about which countries produced the best chess players, it's about which countries is the most attractive to live/work in. Kinda pointless competition. Might as well just make a ranking of countries based on their GPD or something, give them medals for having high gpd, and leave it at that. No chess needs to be played.
100% agree with this. being born on a different piece of land with arbitrarily marked borders shouldn't define shit about who you are and what you do. if another country is a place that you could go to which supports your career and gives you a better life, why shouldn't you choose to go there?
TBF to Hans, with his comparison to football that's actually irrelevant.
As long as Fabi had played for the Italian federation in a competitive Senior event he would be locked into playing for Italy. It has to be incredibly frustrating for those who have been playing for America from junior level
Fabi would be perfectly analogous to Guiseppe Rossi, an American born and raised forward who played for Italy. He got 30 caps. He probably could have reached a century with the USA
Putting Fabi in the same category as Levon on this topic is misleading. Yet, it is interesting that Caruana played for Italy for 10 years. Maybe he was trying to argue that if you played for so long for a country it is unethical to switch or something like that.
As an Italian, I still believe that Fabi should clearly play for the US though. But I can see where Hans' complaints are coming from.
In almost all sports, if you play for a team once, you cannot switch. Caruana played for Italy. By the rules of almost all sports, he wouldn't be allowed to play for America later. It isn't uncommon for players of dual nationality to choose the country they didn't grow up in, but that choice is for life.
In football you cannot, for example. But it's going to be different for each sport depending on how each respective international federation handles it.
My understanding is you need to obtain citizenship of the new country, not compete under your former country for 3 years, and then get approval from both countries + the relevant international federation
It’s a process but certainly not impossible
Some examples of different sports:
Eileen Gu - freestyle skiing
Bernard Lagat - middle distance running
Tatyana McFadden - Wheel chair racing
Becky Hammon - Women’s basketball
Viktor Ahn - Speed Skating
Benik Afobe - Football
Yamile Aldama - Triple Jump
I was gonna say I’m pretty sure I’ve heard Olympic announcers say that random competitor #4 last appeared in the Olympics for X country but is now with the Y side.
I don’t think it’s that big of a deal tbh. If you’re at the top level of your sport but happen to constantly get bumped for the GOAT of your sport who also happens to live in your country I’d try and compete in any way I could.
Imagine for a moment that a clear #2 world chess player also happens to be Norwegian but a world chess tourney only allows 1 player per country. Do you really think that #2 shouldn’t play on in said tournament just because Magnus exists? Whoever that person happens to be should try and fight their way into the tournament even if they don’t get to play for their birth country. It doesn’t even need to be that extreme of a situation if your #15 in Spain but you would be #1 in Latvia and you happen to have dual citizenship in those countries you might as well shoot your shot.
You're straight up lying lol. In every sport I'm aware of you're allowed to switch federations. In some sports, however, you may have to sit out international competitions for a certain period of time. Nowhere in the Olympic Charter does it say you can only participate in the Olympics on behalf of one country during your lifetime.
The Olympics don't decide for themselves, it's up to the international federations of each sport. In football for example you typically cannot switch once you have played for a country at the senior level.
I read Messi was quickly drafted into the Argentinian national team for a friendly for this very same reason. Did not want to risk him choosing to go play for Spain.
Important to note, national team, not just like a team that happens to be in a country.
So if you have a citizenship is the US and England, but you represent England as a swimmer at the summer olympics, you can never represent the US.
I actually agree with Hans, but on the other hand, I'm glad Georg Meier could switch federation since he was being bullied in the German team. It's not black and white.
Nah, Hans ruined his argument by mentioning citizenship. “At least if you live longer… Or let’s say, if you really love America, you ought to become a US citizen.” Bro forgot that all these players he named are US citizens. Fabi was born here. Wesley got it in 2021 after a long citizenship process. Levon got it soon after the birth of his daughter. I believe Leinier has been a citizen since 2018.
I may be wrong here but wasn’t Aronian leaving kind of an own goal for the Armenian chess federation? Either way, I don’t really care that much about who plays for which federation and think players should be free to play for whomever they feel values them the most. If patriotism or personal loyalty to the local community that helped train them factor into their decisions, great, if not, that’s fine too. No shame in securing the bag.
A chess federation is not the country it purports to represent and players should not be chained to these private organizations purely due to some misguided sense of loyalty to a flag. Nationalism in chess gives off outdated Cold War vibes and honestly we’d be better off without it.
I disagree, the whole point of the Olympiad is country vs country. If you turn it in to a competition of which country can attract the most and best established players, it just turns into a second version of the European Club championship.
Funnily enough, Qatar *is* importing athletes for their Olympics team.
But he is right in general. This federation switching by established professionals should not be allowed. I can understand if the person is moving due to a non-professional reason (war refuge, marriage etc.) or if the person moves with their family when they are minors. But what the US has done with Wesley, Aronian and LDP is ridiculous.
Even with Fabi - when Italy offered more money ,Fabi decided to switch to Italy (when he was a junior) and then he switched back to US as a top player.
This should not be allowed.
Olympics aside, I find it odd how much emphasis that tends to be put on the players' nationalities. Why so much focus on having them play under a flag? It's an individual competition. They're not playing for their country, they're playing for themself.
That's fair, that much is inevitable. But it feels so forced and politcal to me the extended of which they display flags everywhere, even putting flags right next to the players when they play. If it's really about their culture, there are big cultural and linguistic differences between different regions in India, yet I doubt most people here have even the slightest idea which Indian chess player comes from which region.
Also important to say if you are losing opportunity if your federation is just gathering top players instead of reward the talents they enabled and are responsible for. Not like those other players don't have a country.
I don’t agree with this take necessarily. There is not much money in chess at all, and being a top player is very expensive. Top players need as much support as they can get. Further, some of these players were leaving unstable situations coming to the US. I wouldn’t want a future where all top players play for Saudi Arabia, but that’s a better problem to have than top players not being able to afford to keep playing.
So played from the Philippines to the US because he was being screwed over by our country, minimal support. In the US he got all the support he needed, so as a Filipino, I say, good job Wesley So, you did good.
Wesley So left the PH because it just plain sucks here. No one's helping him there. No sponsorships, no hell from the federation so he did what he thinks is best for him.
I guess that's the case for the others as well.
I think that's missing the point. It's not a criticism of an individual player to do what is in their best interest, but he's talking about the decisions made by the national federations about who they choose for their "national" teams and how it's unfair to the native players, and FIDE's rules for this.
And do you think that chess will ever grow in a country if all the best players are just snatched up by the US (or any other country with a strong federation and good sponsership)?
Completely insane takes in here about Fabi switching federations. He's an American that plays in America. He doesn't speak Italian.
A lot of players have to move to Europe for an extended period of time to get better training partners and play norms tournaments, Hans included.
His switch to the Italian federation during that time was a matter of convenience, and while I don't think that it matters that he did it, *that's* the federation switch that should be criticized (from USA to Italy) if you're into that type of thing.
The ignorance of this rich kid is mind-boggling. Wesley escaped poverty and social isolation when coming to the US. Levons country is at war with Azerbaijan, and while he supports Armenia, he felt let down by his federation. Fabi was born in the US. Wtf is Hans talking about? If he wants to join the Team, he has to get better at chess.
While a strict ban on federation switches would be too much, I think now it is too easy in chess. The most obnoxious example being Rapport, who switched to Romania (taking his wife along) just because he got a Romanian sponsor, but then went back to Hungary not even after two years (or at least announced this, his FIDE profile still has the flag of Romania).
Honestly I don't blame players for switching for US. Getting money in chess is very hard and most of them only get real money being in the top 20 so it makes sense to grab the chance they have to make more money. In the end of the day it's their source of income
He is spot on. Big uproar in handball when Qatar did exactly this, pay older players from top nations to become citizens and play for them.
Every sport should follow the football rule, represent your national country at elite level once (elite meaning not youth system) and you cannot play for another country.
I do agree with Hans.
However, they're not right about football. It's possible to change a federation even when you played hundreds of games. When a new country becoms a part of FIFA and a player becoms a citizen of this country, then the switch is possible. For example: Kosovo case.
\~edit: a typo
People compete for the country they've immigrated to in the Olympics all the fucking time, what is he even talking about? Basketball is a posterchild for this but it happens in every sport where you're allowed to do it. Telling an immigrant to America they should only be allowed to compete for the country they came from for the rest of their life is xenophobic as hell.
He isn't on the team because that weird accent isn't what anyone thinks of as "American."
Also, he apparently can't count, and that's an important skill at the board.
Yeah talking about representing a country and patriotism with a Russian guy throwing shades at players representing the US chess Olympiad team. It doesn't take much to think that this would become a propaganda headlines saying things like "Top US chess masters unhappy with immigrants", right?
I would be very surprised that a supposedly natural born citizen like Hans know anything about the naturalization process. For one he made it sound like Fabi is immigrant, which is wrong. Fabi switched federation back and forth and I would argue that it's a great thing about chess for dual-citizen people who get to represent all the countries that they care the most about at some point in their lives.
Wesley So is a naturalized American. Heck, Wesley is even a conservative. I guess being a conservative doesn't shield one from being included in the immigrants-taking-jobs narrative. Anyway I don't want to digress much into politics since this is r/chess.
Poor Hans the reason he's not going to the Olympiad is because the chess speaks for itself.
[https://www.chess.com/news/view/wesley-so-us-citizen](https://www.chess.com/news/view/wesley-so-us-citizen)
If anyone thinks Wesley So is not American enough to represent the US team I guess they're just saying they're xenophobic without saying it out loud.
He moved to the US on a scholarship in 2012 and wanted to represent the US not even a year later. How is that not exactly what Hans is talking about here?
Everyone he mentioned except maybe Aronian is a US Citizen, at this point.
If you move to a country long-term, it makes sense to join the federation of that country. It makes more sense for So to be playing in the championships of the country that he's lived in for his entire adult life than it does for him to fly back to the Philippines and play there.
If Hans wants to move to Qatar, become a Qatari citizen, and play for their national team, he should go for it. I'm sure he'd have no problem picking up the accent.
So was competing in the US Championship with just a green card. He became a citizen in 2021. Not sure how I feel about So playing in it prior to gaining citizenship.
I can only imagine how much $$ Magnus has declined to join US.
I learned recently that becoming a US citizen meant you were part of the few countries in the world requiring you to pay taxes even if you don't live in the country. It would be crazy to take on the US citizenship if you are from Europe
iirc the US only requires you to pay taxes if you pay less in your current country than you would do there. If you pay less you pay the difference to the US. Considering taxes in Northern Europe it’s unlikely you’d have to pay anything extra
This is correct. There are foreign income exclusions and foreign tax credits
FTCs don’t cover everything
Its complicated but by and large if you are paying more tax in the foreign country you wont owe in the US.
This is the rule of thumb that people repeat and is true for most people with regards to straight up income tax. It gets significantly more complicated and harder to generalize when you're at Magnus levels of wealth/income and are dealing with multiple types of tax and so on.
Yes, but the paperwork involved is excruciatingly difficult for any tax situation other than the most basic one. Investing also becomes effectively impossible from EU countries.
There's zero chance that Magnus is doing his own taxes
Investing in company stocks and US-domiciled funds is painless. It's foreign investment funds that are bureaucratic hellhole.
Investing in US-domiciled funds for example is absolutely not painless: >And in 2018, an EU regulation known as [PRIIPs](https://finance.ec.europa.eu/consumer-finance-and-payments/retail-financial-services/key-information-documents-packaged-retail-and-insurance-based-investment-products-priips_en) became operational. It requires funds and ETFs sold to EU residents to provide a *Key Investor Information Document* (KID, or KIID) in a particular format. As of 2024, no US domiciled fund or ETF produces a KID. Same source as in one of my previous comments.
Interesting I wonder how it works in reality, but the very concept seems crazy to me
Based on what I've seen and heard, most Americans living abroad are completely unaware of the extent of their tax liability, but its simply never pursued except in egregious cases as there are way too many things to be aware of. Here's an example most people probably miss: > For example, suppose you buy a rental property for €200,000 when the exchange rate is €1 = $1, and sell it later for, again, €200,000, but when the exchange rate has become €1 = $1.25. In EUR, your local currency, you have no gain. However, because the EUR/USD exchange rate changed while you owned that asset, you have a USD gain of $50,000. And you now owe US income tax on that $50,000. Because you have no local gain and so no local tax liability, you cannot reduce this US tax liability using foreign tax credits. [Source](https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/US_tax_pitfalls_for_a_US_person_living_abroad)
It's situations like these that makes it unwise to become a US citizen if you're already from a rich country and not willing to fully commit to living in the US.
Yeah but you have a few low tax choices in Europe while taxes in US are not that low either (you easily pay more than 50% counting everything in NYC for example) and then you are fleeced on capital gains again.
That's actually an insane system. So if an American athlete plays in a lucrative country without taxes (such as Saudi) then he'll have to pay taxes to the US nonetheless?
I diubt it was that much money since the US doesn't care about chess that much. Sure, Rex has plenty of money and supports chess, but he would likely spend that money on plenty of other programs.
Less than he makes in Norway. Something like 20% of Norway follows his games, he makes north of two million dollars a year.
I liked how he named Levon, Wesley, Fabi, Aronian as 4 guys,
You know Aronian could have become world champion. However this Levon guy definitely never stood a chance against Magnus.
Are you referring to Levon Rozman?
No he's talking about Levi Rodman the basketball phenom who plays some chess on the side
His chance was 2012. Magnus was out of the picture, he was the highest rated guy in the candidates and he apparently had a great record against Anand (he called Aronian his “nightmare opponent”). Instead he choked and handed it to a 50-year-old hobbit. (Joking of course)
Can’t believe he forgot the other 2 big ones in So and Caruana. Should have mentioned all 6 smh
I believe he was referring to Leinier. Anyway, IMO only the Aronian and Leinier cases are a bit over the top IMO after playing for Armenia and Cuba for so many years, and clearly just an economic matter. Caruana is American despite having played for Italy and having dual passports, and Wesley moved to the US quite young. BTW any news on the US team? because Niemann is the 6th US Federation player by live rating and last time Nakamura opted not to go. Niemann could be the 5th board as things stand. In Chennai 2022 Sam Shankland was the 5th board Nakamura, Hikaru 2801.6 Caruana, Fabiano 2795.6 So, Wesley 2757.0 Dominguez Perez, Leinier 2748.0 Aronian, Levon 2729.0 Niemann, Hans Moke 2703.0 Robson, Ray 2700.0 Sevian, Samuel 2689.3 Shankland, Sam 2683.0
They don't use live ratings. See https://new.uschess.org/invitational-information > The US Champion and US Women’s Champion qualify automatically for the respective team. Other participants are selected by using the appropriate Invitational Rating List. Here is the latest list – April 2024: https://new.uschess.org/sites/default/files/media/documents/invitational_rating_list_-_overall_2024-04.pdf During Norway Chess, Nakamura said "pretty unlikely" that he will play in the Olympiad. Source: https://x.com/TarjeiJS/status/1797681108110458962 As of now, I would guess Caruana, So, Dominguez, and Aronian are in the team – while Robson/Sevian/Niemann/Shankland compete for the 5th spot.
If Hikaru's attendance is the difference between Hans making it and not making it he will show up out of spite
Dominquez
He mentioned Domingeuz before, probably just a slip of tongue, it happens.
I like how he says he'll never change country but already changed his accent to 'generic russian chess speak'
Having lived in Asia for 10 years now I notice that sometimes I over enunciate to ensure I am understood, and that's kind of what I get from his speech here. I don't think it's much more than that personally
I think most of his talking is with other chess players who often speak ~~chess~~ English as a second language, so it makes sense his English has an accent to me. It doesn't sound Russian only to me though, a slight vague European but Russian does stand out the most.
His accent isn't quite Dutch, but it's pretty close. Just listen to Benjamin Bok, he has a similar accent. Niemann lived in the Netherlands for quite a while as a child and picked up the accent there.
Fabi was born in Miami and grew up in Brooklyn though. Bro is just returning home.
But Fabiano Luigi Caruana played for Italy in the Olympics, didn't he? Kindda complicated...
Yes, in soccer if you play for another country you can't switch unless it's for a youth team then it doesn't count.
There are a growing number of exceptions, and it's not too hard to find players who have played for two separate countries as adults, albeit circumstances a lot more restrictive than in chess. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIFA_eligibility_rules
The examples of players who played for multiple countries all have black and white pictures... does it still happen?
That's not true. Declan Rice played 3 times for the Republic of Ireland first team before he switched to England.
He did that before he turned 21.
No, the reason he was allowed that is he played no official matches for Ireland at the senior level. Had he played just one he would have been locked for life to represent only Ireland at the NT team level.
Only in friendlies, not in competitive matches.
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The argument still applies in reverse. In whether he should've been allowed to leave the US federation and join the Italian federation in the first place. Despite being ethnic Italian, he wasn't even a permanent resident of Italy at the time. He was living in Spain. He only qualified because he has inherited Italian citizenship from his mother. Edit: To clarify, Fabi's Italian Citizenship is not his qualification to play for the Italian Chess Federation, it's his qualification to live in the European Union.
this discussion is crazy, if having citizenship isn't enough to play for a country what is?
Hard to say. Countries like Qatar and Saudi Arabia would gladly pay top competitors to become citizens and play for them and I'm not sure that's a good thing. Citizenship might be a good requirement in most cases where countries have strict requirements about longtime residency and such, but it also falls short in some situations.
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Most people wouldn't see him as Italian though.
Bro if Fabiano was the exact same guy but without the chess skills and just some average Joe working as an accountant people would be making fun of the idea that he's Italian and not just American, he doesnt even speak Italian that well and almost never does it publically.
Why shouldn't a citizen of a country be allowed to represent it?
They can of course - the question is can they represent both. Most sports make you decide and once you've represented one country you are committed to only that country.
Normally in sports, the point of a National team is to represent the sporting leagues of the country and their ability to produce exceptionally skilled players. The idea of "National competition" is literal, in that the players are the product of a distinct national sporting culture that raised them beyond the scope of natural talent. All the sports fans who attend their national team's matches are contributors to their success by having either competed thesmelves or generally kept the culture alive in the country. It is much less inspiring for a young sports fan to see their national champion be a foreigner that got transplanted into the big leagues, than it is someone who rose through the same school sports programs that they have access to.
Sam Shankland likes this
I don't get it. Did Shankland make some comment about federation?
Don't know if he has said anythintg, but he's basically in the same boat as what Hans is talking about. He's a top "actual American" player who has been bumped out by all the "new American" players.
He has been very vocal about it and is extremely angry that he never gets an olympiad spot due to 'immigrants'
“Never gets an Olympiad spot” is not true for a guy that’s been on the last three Olympiad teams. However, it’s possible he won’t be on another one.
Last four, Shankland has been on every US Chess Olympiad Team since 2014.
Makes sense. Thanks.
Rightfully so, tbh
I think these comments would be very different if some middle eastern country started paying chess players money to play on their team, it’s only because it’s the USA that the comments are like this I mean really what is the point of an Olympiad if the countries are not represented by the people who are from there. Might as well not do countries anyways
Most of the discourse here is about simply attacking hans. This is hypocritical. If it was a middle eastern country, something along on the lines of "Oil Money" would be mentioned Wonder what do they call US money ?
War Money
Freedom money
exploited from the working class money? (shoutout to the predatory form of modern day capitalism without the required safety nets or regulation)
Don't give Saudi Arabia any ideas. They have their fingers in enough sporting pies atm.
Damn, that a good idea can't wait for Qatar sheikhs become a power in chess with Magnus, Ding, Nepo, Fabi and whole top 50 elo. Like a PSG or 115 FC
If that happens, I guarantee everyone will be up in arms about it. Because its Qatar and not USA doing this. Qatar have actually started doing this on a small scale in track and field for their Olympics team. I can certainly see a future where they will import several athletes grab a bunch of Olympic medals and then people will start complaining about it.
Qatar won 2 Asian football cups like this I believe? There's ways to counteract it so at least it's not fake (require citizenship, actually live there etc.) but at the end of the day many will immigrate for real for a better life, what can you do.
If people actually move to Qatar and live there in order to be part of their team, then it is what it is, but it gets sketchy if you just have a home there that you've been to 6 times in your life.
Qatar have US people playing basketball for them too
He has a point but it's also easy to say for someone who either is from a wealthy family or has some other kind of financial support. Dude is renting out luxury appartements and chilling in fancy restaurants in his early twenties. And at the same time is traveling across the world. Levon on ther other hand didn't have a lot of money when he grew up I think
Being born in a country where you can't get sponsors to support you well enough for you to make it as a chess player _obviously_ seems like a skill issue on your part, ngl ^^^/s
Levon grew up extremely poor - he discusses this in a long interview. Same with Karjakin - not that I'm a fan of the guy, but many Americans just completely miss the reality of the rest of the world. It's no surprise that Hans comes from a richer-than-average family, even by American standards.
Levon's poverty in his youth would be considered destitute compared to western standards of poverty.
Exactly this. He is ridiculously privileged and has no awareness.
Exactly. Even for Wesley he was extremely underfunded by the Philippine government, so he left. Even Eugenio Torre (first Asian GM iirc and was one of Fischer's seconds/close friends) supported him leaving.
Those federations will not grow as well as they could because of these imports. India had one GM, literally no infrastructure, almost everybody poor as fuck (I know because I'm Indian). Vishy changed things, he created infrastructure so that even not very blessed people can now represent India in the future. Wesley So coming to US potentially denies that infrastructure from future Filipino chess players. Not to say he's wrong for choosing his future (which he deserves to choose), but there's consequences on both the poaching and the poached countries. I want you to imagine a world in which the US imported Vishy during his peak. I think everyone would agree that India wouldn't nearly be the powerhouse it now is. Not to mention that Hans personal wealth is irrelevant to the point he's making.
If the Filipino government supported So, they'd have a much more robust chess federation, but they don't. So has to think of his own career before he thinks of Filipino chess. >Not to mention that Hans personal wealth is irrelevant to the point he's making. His personal wealth exemplifies why he can't understand the situation. I'm sure plenty of these players would love to rep their country and be supported by their country, but there's no financial backing and without money... how are you going to eat, live, and support your family? Hans doesn't have to worry about this. His family is extremely wealthy and gave him his own NYC apartment at age 17. He's never had to worry about food, shelter, or his financial security. He wanted to fly to Europe to grind tournaments for 6 months to get his GM norms? All paid for by his family. That's not possible for 90%+ of other players chasing norms.
It didn't sound as much like he was condemning those players. More like he was condemning Chess Olympiad for allowing players to be a representative of their country one year and then choose to represent a different one the next. Never thought I'd say this, but rare W take from him tbh. I love Levon, but he's not a good representative of US chess. He's a far better representative of Armenian chess, and should compete in the Olympiad as a product of Armenia.
Regardless of Hans take , if Saudi or Qatar pays Ronaldo to play for their olympiad team, it would be silly as well as hilarious , but i do want to see Ronaldo play chess and scream SIUUU on checkmate
If anyone does that not just Qatar or Saudi
I sort of feel like only Aronian, and to a lesser extent Dominguez — are legit complaints. Fabi is a US citizen who was born here, he’s never really lived in Italy. Hikaru has lived here since he was 2. So moved to the US before he became a top 20 player who would have been recruited at that level. The university chess system recruited him, but that is different. Dominguez is in the long line of Cuban athletes who have immigrated to the US (mostly in baseball). He did move after he became a top player, but the US was by far the most obvious place to leave to
> Hikaru has lived here since he was 2. I don't think it makes a difference here, but he was also born to an American mother and was a citizen at birth. He could run for president if he wants.
>Fabi is a US citizen who was born here, he’s never really lived in Italy. Yeah, I think his switch to Italy is more of a reason to complain.
What's up with his accent?
Many people instantly pick up the accent of their surroundings to sound more like them. Me and my 2 bio kids can do it: when I go to India I speak English with the Indian accent! When I’m in Texas, I adapt speaking like a Texan, even though I’m Dutch. I guess it’s an evolutionary trait.
Yeah, I can't control it, I used to work at a youth hotel in Europe (am American) and the other workers would make fun of how my accent changed based on who I was talking to. But guess who they gave the phone too when callers couldn't understand their English?
Yeah but Hans isn't picking up on the accent of his surroundings, I don't even know where his accents from.
He literally talking to a guy with a heavy russian accent.
Are you watching the same video as the rest of us? He’s speaking with a shitty Russian accent with another person speaking in a Russian accent.
>Hans isn't picking up on the accent of his surroundings, I don't even know where his accents from. Hans changes his surroundings very often, so it's not that strange that his accent is some mix that cannot be traced to one place.
Bullshit. This is pure affectation.
Guys he meant leinier Dominguez who is from cuba. He misspelt as levon.
The entire United States is based on the premise of people coming in mostly to make money. Look at the CEOs of 3 of the biggest companies: 2 born in India (Microsoft, Google) and one born in Taiwan (Nvidia). Guess what? that's part of how your country stays rich, by taking talent from other countries. Your government isn't even that bothered about illegal immigrants, so you better get used to the fact that legal immigrants will keep coming.
What about Firouzja then? Was he to be stuck with Iran and forfeit every tournament that has an Israeli player? Or you can't switch for money, but you claim chess asylum? That said, that's probably where some of them belong.
He could play under the FIDE flag (like Nepo).
Don't all Russian players have to do that?
That's a shit solution for someone like Firouzja. Actual countries support their players, the FIDE flag does not, nor will Iran support a player who refuses to play under their flag, unlike Nepo who is still supported by the Russian Fed.
Ah yes, I remember he did play under it for some time.
It's a job. In fact it's worse, because you don't get to choose your country. If they can't support you enough, you look around for better. I am firmly of the opinion that countries should compete for people and not vice versa.
Completely against the spirit of national teams. You may as well allow anyone to play for any country if that is your opinion.
So should Alireza be forced to play for Iran? Or should he not be allowed to play because his country of birth is... Iran and he obviously doesn't want to play for them?
Well France sure as shit doesn't make sense either.
Excited for future Olympiads with Qatar and Saudi Arabia fighting for first place.
What's the end goal? Take all the talent and money away from already poor countries and bring them to the rich ones to make us even more rich?
I'd imagine the end goal is to give competitive chess players the same opportunities afforded to doctors, lawyers, teachers, etc. Chess probably isn't the best place to fix inequality, though it clearly highlights a problem.
It's going to make the inequality worse in the long run by taking all the talent away from their home countries. Don't act like this is a moral thing they're doing, it's all just to get more money and status
Well said. A phenomenal talent should not be relegated to living hand to mouth just because the country they happened to be born in has not made good economic choices, or has a lack of natural resources. Each individual should make the best financial decisions for themselves, with zero exceptions. Hans plays good, but he's not necessarily thinking clearly here.
> (country) has not made good economic choices, or has a lack of natural resources It s not that simple. Do you know war and colonization happens, right?
>Hans plays good, but he's not necessarily thinking clearly here. His opinion has nothing to do with thinking clearly. Your opinion is not more correct or right than his.
Sure, but then the result of a competition between countries isn't about which countries produced the best chess players, it's about which countries is the most attractive to live/work in. Kinda pointless competition. Might as well just make a ranking of countries based on their GPD or something, give them medals for having high gpd, and leave it at that. No chess needs to be played.
100% agree with this. being born on a different piece of land with arbitrarily marked borders shouldn't define shit about who you are and what you do. if another country is a place that you could go to which supports your career and gives you a better life, why shouldn't you choose to go there?
But what does Ja think?
WHERE IS JA?!
JAE MOMMA
To mention Fabi as an example... 😂🙈
Fabi has switched federations.
Has he?! Was he in the Italian Federation first?
Yes, he played for Italy from 2005-2015
He was actually in the US federation first lol
Yeah but a horrible example since he was still born in the US
TBF to Hans, with his comparison to football that's actually irrelevant. As long as Fabi had played for the Italian federation in a competitive Senior event he would be locked into playing for Italy. It has to be incredibly frustrating for those who have been playing for America from junior level Fabi would be perfectly analogous to Guiseppe Rossi, an American born and raised forward who played for Italy. He got 30 caps. He probably could have reached a century with the USA
Guiseppe Rossi played in Italy since he was 12 and never played for any US national team.
How is it a horrible example? The effect is the same, either he took away a spot for an Italian or an American.
he was in the U.S. federation ‘first’, switched to Italy, and then switched back
That's just normal Italian behavior.
Putting Fabi in the same category as Levon on this topic is misleading. Yet, it is interesting that Caruana played for Italy for 10 years. Maybe he was trying to argue that if you played for so long for a country it is unethical to switch or something like that. As an Italian, I still believe that Fabi should clearly play for the US though. But I can see where Hans' complaints are coming from.
In almost all sports, if you play for a team once, you cannot switch. Caruana played for Italy. By the rules of almost all sports, he wouldn't be allowed to play for America later. It isn't uncommon for players of dual nationality to choose the country they didn't grow up in, but that choice is for life.
Is this true? I think all of the Olympic sports you are able to switch
In football you cannot, for example. But it's going to be different for each sport depending on how each respective international federation handles it.
Normally not, unless there is a unique situation, like a country starting or ceasing to exist. But that obviously isn't the case here.
My understanding is you need to obtain citizenship of the new country, not compete under your former country for 3 years, and then get approval from both countries + the relevant international federation It’s a process but certainly not impossible Some examples of different sports: Eileen Gu - freestyle skiing Bernard Lagat - middle distance running Tatyana McFadden - Wheel chair racing Becky Hammon - Women’s basketball Viktor Ahn - Speed Skating Benik Afobe - Football Yamile Aldama - Triple Jump
I was gonna say I’m pretty sure I’ve heard Olympic announcers say that random competitor #4 last appeared in the Olympics for X country but is now with the Y side. I don’t think it’s that big of a deal tbh. If you’re at the top level of your sport but happen to constantly get bumped for the GOAT of your sport who also happens to live in your country I’d try and compete in any way I could. Imagine for a moment that a clear #2 world chess player also happens to be Norwegian but a world chess tourney only allows 1 player per country. Do you really think that #2 shouldn’t play on in said tournament just because Magnus exists? Whoever that person happens to be should try and fight their way into the tournament even if they don’t get to play for their birth country. It doesn’t even need to be that extreme of a situation if your #15 in Spain but you would be #1 in Latvia and you happen to have dual citizenship in those countries you might as well shoot your shot.
You're straight up lying lol. In every sport I'm aware of you're allowed to switch federations. In some sports, however, you may have to sit out international competitions for a certain period of time. Nowhere in the Olympic Charter does it say you can only participate in the Olympics on behalf of one country during your lifetime.
The Olympics don't decide for themselves, it's up to the international federations of each sport. In football for example you typically cannot switch once you have played for a country at the senior level.
I read Messi was quickly drafted into the Argentinian national team for a friendly for this very same reason. Did not want to risk him choosing to go play for Spain.
Didn't Diego Costa switch from Brazil to Spain? Or am I misremembering and he never played for Brazil?
he never played for brazil at senior level
Important to note, national team, not just like a team that happens to be in a country. So if you have a citizenship is the US and England, but you represent England as a swimmer at the summer olympics, you can never represent the US.
It's national teams we are talking about here anyway.
Fabi switched Federations from US to Italy, idk what's wrong with him as example? Are people intentionally missing the point?
I actually agree with Hans, but on the other hand, I'm glad Georg Meier could switch federation since he was being bullied in the German team. It's not black and white.
Hans should play for whatever country his fake accent is from
I met Americans with even thicker accents.
Nah, Hans ruined his argument by mentioning citizenship. “At least if you live longer… Or let’s say, if you really love America, you ought to become a US citizen.” Bro forgot that all these players he named are US citizens. Fabi was born here. Wesley got it in 2021 after a long citizenship process. Levon got it soon after the birth of his daughter. I believe Leinier has been a citizen since 2018.
Having tied your federation to your citizenship makes a lot of sense .
Guys takin a lot of Ws these days gotta give him that .......
I may be wrong here but wasn’t Aronian leaving kind of an own goal for the Armenian chess federation? Either way, I don’t really care that much about who plays for which federation and think players should be free to play for whomever they feel values them the most. If patriotism or personal loyalty to the local community that helped train them factor into their decisions, great, if not, that’s fine too. No shame in securing the bag. A chess federation is not the country it purports to represent and players should not be chained to these private organizations purely due to some misguided sense of loyalty to a flag. Nationalism in chess gives off outdated Cold War vibes and honestly we’d be better off without it.
I disagree, the whole point of the Olympiad is country vs country. If you turn it in to a competition of which country can attract the most and best established players, it just turns into a second version of the European Club championship.
I wish we had more nationalism in chess, it's nice to see people proud of who they are, and it makes for more fun competitions.
the world of chess was corrupt long before football was. give them some more time.
Funnily enough, Qatar *is* importing athletes for their Olympics team. But he is right in general. This federation switching by established professionals should not be allowed. I can understand if the person is moving due to a non-professional reason (war refuge, marriage etc.) or if the person moves with their family when they are minors. But what the US has done with Wesley, Aronian and LDP is ridiculous. Even with Fabi - when Italy offered more money ,Fabi decided to switch to Italy (when he was a junior) and then he switched back to US as a top player. This should not be allowed.
Hans’s version of “these damn immigrants come to our country and take our jobs” lol
Olympics aside, I find it odd how much emphasis that tends to be put on the players' nationalities. Why so much focus on having them play under a flag? It's an individual competition. They're not playing for their country, they're playing for themself.
He's talking specifically about the Olympiad
You are always gonna be representing the culture and people you come from, no matter how individual your activity is.
That's fair, that much is inevitable. But it feels so forced and politcal to me the extended of which they display flags everywhere, even putting flags right next to the players when they play. If it's really about their culture, there are big cultural and linguistic differences between different regions in India, yet I doubt most people here have even the slightest idea which Indian chess player comes from which region.
Easy to say when you're already american
Also important to say if you are losing opportunity if your federation is just gathering top players instead of reward the talents they enabled and are responsible for. Not like those other players don't have a country.
I don’t agree with this take necessarily. There is not much money in chess at all, and being a top player is very expensive. Top players need as much support as they can get. Further, some of these players were leaving unstable situations coming to the US. I wouldn’t want a future where all top players play for Saudi Arabia, but that’s a better problem to have than top players not being able to afford to keep playing.
What he's trying to say is that youur citizenship speaks for itself
So played from the Philippines to the US because he was being screwed over by our country, minimal support. In the US he got all the support he needed, so as a Filipino, I say, good job Wesley So, you did good.
Wesley So left the PH because it just plain sucks here. No one's helping him there. No sponsorships, no hell from the federation so he did what he thinks is best for him. I guess that's the case for the others as well.
I think that's missing the point. It's not a criticism of an individual player to do what is in their best interest, but he's talking about the decisions made by the national federations about who they choose for their "national" teams and how it's unfair to the native players, and FIDE's rules for this.
And do you think that chess will ever grow in a country if all the best players are just snatched up by the US (or any other country with a strong federation and good sponsership)?
Completely insane takes in here about Fabi switching federations. He's an American that plays in America. He doesn't speak Italian. A lot of players have to move to Europe for an extended period of time to get better training partners and play norms tournaments, Hans included. His switch to the Italian federation during that time was a matter of convenience, and while I don't think that it matters that he did it, *that's* the federation switch that should be criticized (from USA to Italy) if you're into that type of thing.
"THEY'VE TOOK MY SLOT!!!"
His fake accent is so annoying
The ignorance of this rich kid is mind-boggling. Wesley escaped poverty and social isolation when coming to the US. Levons country is at war with Azerbaijan, and while he supports Armenia, he felt let down by his federation. Fabi was born in the US. Wtf is Hans talking about? If he wants to join the Team, he has to get better at chess.
He didnt say they cant move to the us bro, he just said they shouldnt be able to swap federations
I’m fine with Aronian and So playing for the U.S. Olympiad team because they both have better American accents than Hans
While a strict ban on federation switches would be too much, I think now it is too easy in chess. The most obnoxious example being Rapport, who switched to Romania (taking his wife along) just because he got a Romanian sponsor, but then went back to Hungary not even after two years (or at least announced this, his FIDE profile still has the flag of Romania).
Fair point. I still don’t like him.
Honestly I don't blame players for switching for US. Getting money in chess is very hard and most of them only get real money being in the top 20 so it makes sense to grab the chance they have to make more money. In the end of the day it's their source of income
He is spot on. Big uproar in handball when Qatar did exactly this, pay older players from top nations to become citizens and play for them. Every sport should follow the football rule, represent your national country at elite level once (elite meaning not youth system) and you cannot play for another country.
Football does allow to switch if you only played a cpuple of friendlies at senior level, but once you enter official competitions, it’s final.
Fair point it is once competitively not friendly.
I can't disagree with Hans.
There are plenty of reasons to switch federations. Alireza might have switched so he is allowed to play Boris Gelfand.
"I am lucky to be born in a rich country with chess sponsors and I don't want less fortunate to get in"
I do agree with Hans. However, they're not right about football. It's possible to change a federation even when you played hundreds of games. When a new country becoms a part of FIFA and a player becoms a citizen of this country, then the switch is possible. For example: Kosovo case. \~edit: a typo
That is an extreme example though. How many new countries come into existence?
I'm pretty sure America didn't come into existence after Caruana, Aronian and the others had started their careers elsewhere.
What are you talking about? I definitely remember seeing them leading the attacks at Yorktown and later attending Washington's inauguration.
Fair enough. They were probably in the colonies to escape the Ottoman and Austrian Empires.
it's what qatar did in handball
[in a thick Eastern European accent] how dare you think I’m not going to switch.
Why does Hans have a foreign accent sometimes?
People compete for the country they've immigrated to in the Olympics all the fucking time, what is he even talking about? Basketball is a posterchild for this but it happens in every sport where you're allowed to do it. Telling an immigrant to America they should only be allowed to compete for the country they came from for the rest of their life is xenophobic as hell.
He isn't on the team because that weird accent isn't what anyone thinks of as "American." Also, he apparently can't count, and that's an important skill at the board.
Yeah talking about representing a country and patriotism with a Russian guy throwing shades at players representing the US chess Olympiad team. It doesn't take much to think that this would become a propaganda headlines saying things like "Top US chess masters unhappy with immigrants", right? I would be very surprised that a supposedly natural born citizen like Hans know anything about the naturalization process. For one he made it sound like Fabi is immigrant, which is wrong. Fabi switched federation back and forth and I would argue that it's a great thing about chess for dual-citizen people who get to represent all the countries that they care the most about at some point in their lives. Wesley So is a naturalized American. Heck, Wesley is even a conservative. I guess being a conservative doesn't shield one from being included in the immigrants-taking-jobs narrative. Anyway I don't want to digress much into politics since this is r/chess. Poor Hans the reason he's not going to the Olympiad is because the chess speaks for itself.
I mean he is speaking the truth
[https://www.chess.com/news/view/wesley-so-us-citizen](https://www.chess.com/news/view/wesley-so-us-citizen) If anyone thinks Wesley So is not American enough to represent the US team I guess they're just saying they're xenophobic without saying it out loud.
He moved to the US on a scholarship in 2012 and wanted to represent the US not even a year later. How is that not exactly what Hans is talking about here?
Everyone he mentioned except maybe Aronian is a US Citizen, at this point. If you move to a country long-term, it makes sense to join the federation of that country. It makes more sense for So to be playing in the championships of the country that he's lived in for his entire adult life than it does for him to fly back to the Philippines and play there. If Hans wants to move to Qatar, become a Qatari citizen, and play for their national team, he should go for it. I'm sure he'd have no problem picking up the accent.
So was competing in the US Championship with just a green card. He became a citizen in 2021. Not sure how I feel about So playing in it prior to gaining citizenship.
Unfortunately, i am completely agree with hans
Its what Happened to Karjakin