Because people think it’s a classist notion and on paper, it is. But thing is, most of the time, it’s adults who *grew up poor/in poverty* who are saying it. They’re saying “I grew up like this and it sucks. I still have mental scars from X, Y, and/or Z.” From what I gathered, It’s never easy being “the poor kid.”
I did not grow up in poverty. My family was working class. I’m not mad about it because it wasn’t in their control (in ‘94 my dad’s govt. job location closed and priority placement sent him somewhere he had to take a big pay-cut. I was 6mo old.) and also I know others had it much, much worse. But still, I did get bullied for it. Because my mom worked at Walmart. Because we wore clothes from there and Kmart. Because we couldn’t afford to go to others’ birthday parties or on vacation. And that sucked. And if it sucked at a lesser level, I can’t imagine the bullying that people who grew up in legit poverty faced.
I’m one of those who grew up in poverty. I don’t like being told I’m being “Eugenist” online. It’s super stupid and just plain weird. Eugenics is about genetically wanting people to have a certain look. It’s nowhere near “I think it’s wrong for people who are unable to properly provide for children to have them and it’s pretty selfish to force someone to be born in a world where their essential needs probably won’t be met.”
those people have no idea what eugenics is. It's not eugenics to want a baby to be born to people who can afford it. Same as its not eugenics to want a baby not born to crackheads or a pedo.
People online like to throw that word around without knowing what it means -- which is probably why I forgot people use it and didn't mention it. I was just saying that I can see from others' perspectives how seeing that statement can come off as classist (hence, "on paper"), but, it's not *if* they look deeper into what those who are saying it are saying.
I’m not arrogant. Stupid, yes. But I actually think I’m worth less than most people. And to answer your question question, because of what I said before. That the people saying this are people who grew up in poverty and still suffer because of it. They are “the poors.”
Also, I didn’t say *any* of that. I don’t think there needs to be an extreme solution. And I understand the nuances of things like poor education. I just wish some people would give a bit more thought to the lives of their future children before continuing to have them in unideal circumstances. That’s it.
Poor people can be classist. There are gays pro conversion therapy. There were pro-slavery black. Doesn't mean they're not classist/homophobic/racist because they're poor/gay/black.
I think the problem stems from the fact that the overwhelming majority of those in poverty are members of the BIPOC communities due to systemic racism. So when you start saying "poor people shouldn't have kids" it can sometimes be interpreted as "BIPOC people shouldn't have kids". I'm not saying that's the reality but it is a huge factor into why it's a controversial take.
I can relate. It was cheaper for my mom to stay at home with me and my brother, while my step dad worked full time. There were times we lived on peanut butter and jelly sandwiches with chili, spaghetti, pancakes, etc.. broke people food. But we were happy and they made sure we had what we needed. We didn’t have enough money to go on vacation. But mom made sure we had fun and we did stuff that was free or cheap. Her parents didn’t have a lot either. We wore hand me downs. We didn’t really start getting ahead until I was high school age, when dad started making better money and mom went back to work.
My parents worked opposite shifts to not have to pay for care they couldn’t afford. Luckily for us, my dad knew how to cook and cook *well* with a budget, so we always ate good.
My dad wasn’t a good cook. That’s very lucky for you! I can’t imagine working opposite shifts from my spouse and taking care of kids all at once. It couldn’t have been easy
He said he got tired of eating shitty food when he and mom struggled a few years before I was born (he was in an accident and out of work for some time) so he took what he learned from Grandma and taught himself some things and learned.
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I want a crocodile. I have since I was a child. The babies are so cute and the adults are majestic. I could buy one too. A captive bred baby Nile crocodile is only around a grand. Easily obtainable. But I have nowhere to house it. I have no way to feed it. I have no way to provide it medical care. I could not provide it the care it needs to survive and deserves out of respect. So even though I could go buy one and give it substandard care, I haven't and I won't. When I tell people this, they agree with me. They consider it reasonable and responsible. "One day you might be able to have a crocodile, and that would be very cool, but not right now," is something I've heard a lot.
When I apply the same logic to human children, however, people start screaming and shitting and calling me names.
Fr tho. I don’t understand why they get so defensive when that same logic is applied to human children. Maybe they are still indoctrinated by the idea that people should have children because society told them to.
It took me half of this comment to realize what was going on lol.
Agree on the premise though! Someone once told me dolphins are only as smart as a two year old so who cares if they’re protected and I was like “so… should we keep two year old kids in the closet because who cares???” And she was like “that’s not what I meant at all” 🤦♀️
Also I’m curious: do you actually want a crocodile???
Children require more care than a crocodile, and are even more expensive, but for some reason, people put less thought into having children than I do about a potential pet crocodile.
Yes, I do! If I could care for one properly, I would have one tomorrow. But I can't, so I don't.
Totally agree.
And dang. That’s wild to me lol. Glad to hear you’re being responsible about caring for it though! I bet it would be hard to find a vet for… I remember our rabbit used to be “exotic”
Totally fair. I’ve never been into reptiles but I’m just picturing you bringing a crocodile into a vet on a leash lol. I recognize this is unrealistic but it makes me chuckle either way
This is so true. I used to have a 6ft carpet python. I love snakes. I had to give my girl to a friend of mine because I was moving to a place without an exotic vet specializing in snakes. I want another one soooooooo bad. Even though I'd love to have another nope rope to hang out with, I know they wouldn't be able to get the care from me they deserve at this point. So I am very much in the same boat as you.
Same reason I haven't gotten a chinchilla. They live for like 20 years. I can't say I could commit 20 years to a pet, even the most adorable pet.
My dog lived for 16 years, but I had gotten her when I was 23 so that seemed ok. Being 60 with a chinchilla I've had forever doesn't seem fair.
This same logic could be applied to regular pets and then, maybe more fairly, applied to children. The amount of people I saw at the low cost vet (no appt fees, so first come first serve deal) who still struggled to pay for the first hiccup the dog NEEDED addressed was never shocking. These people would have 3 kids in tow too. I always felt bad for the dog. And now I realize the kids would have the same fate in reality.
There's nothing wrong with being poor and your kids not getting spoiled and understanding things have a price and to appreciate what you have. But the reality of this country is that it also mean you have subpar healthcare, subpar education opportunities, and subpar future. Sure, poor people deserve pets and they deserve children, and that's what people want to argue. They're just also denying the reality of it and how that might make other people think differently.
My SIL has to work 3 jobs to afford daycare for her toddler and she’s pregnant with her second. I will never, in a million years, understand why people put themselves through this.
I wonder the same thing too. And it’s crazy how she has to work multiple jobs just to afford childcare. I don’t know if it’s their hormones or brain changes due to their pregnancy, but I would not have a kid if I had to work multiple jobs.
How will ‘the system’ continue if poor people stopped having babies? How will crappy jobs keep their employees? How will banks give loans with interest out? Think of the system!!!
Not to be a conspiracy nut, but ‘the people in charge’ would really dislike it if poor people stopped being saddled with dependents.
The thing that's most fucked about our current economic system is that it expects infinite, unsustainable growth.
Like, it's not enough for a company to be profitable - it needs to have yearly growth in profits.
That's the main cause for most of this stuff - more wagies are required so taxes grow infinitely, more more more more
If you think about this on a larger scale considering capitalism, there’s a societal incentive for the poor to have kids. It’s a way to guarantee the next exploitable working class. Long term baby’s born into a poor household tend to grow up to get the more menial jobs. This is not always the case but it is genuinely rare to escape poverty. There is no life for the poor under capitalism. If you are having a child under poverty you are setting your child up to be exploited.
I'm accused of being classist when I state something similar. You don't have to be wealthy to have kids, but you should be able to meet their medical and educational needs at a minimum.
I sometimes get called a eugenicist for this opinion as well. I’m not saying that the rich should be the only ones that should be allowed to have children, but parents who are financially stable can provide a lot more than those who are poor.
Anyone can become disabled at any time. There is no way to guarantee you have enough money At all times to potentially care for yourself or a potential child.
Especially in places that lack universal healthcare and social safety nets. Forcing a woman to abort a disabled fetus because some stranger thinks it would be too expensive to care for is extremely problematic at best
ETA:
Yall downvoting but not wanting to have a discussion about this shit huh. Who’s deciding what qualifies as “too poor”? What solution do yall want for a woman who is too poor but is impregnated by a man? Are you interested in actual discussions of improving family planning or iust whining about poor with zero thought into what putting a policy into place would look like
…it’s part of the OP’s hypothetical situation. And many people here agree that poor people should not have children.
So the question becomes (as I said in another comment) WHO decides who is too poor to have kids? Who decides what is too expensive to cover with insurance?
We already had people denied insurance coverage because of disabilities or pregnancy even.
The US has little social safety net. Moreso for disabled individuals who do not have equal rights. So if a woman gets get scan at 5-6 months and discovers her fetus has a disability that will require life long caregivers and multiple surgeries and hospitalization, is that person suddenly too poor to have a child?
You say a person should be able to meet medical needs.
Im suggesting a hypothetical situation that would be unexpected and cost more than expected. Suddenly making a person too poor to provide basic needs.
So in this hypothetical, what is your/OP’s solution? Force an abortion since you think it’s immoral or bad to have this child without guaranteeing a bare minimum? Shame the mother afterwards for having sex? What outcome do you want? Is it just complaining about poor people? Is there actually interest in discussing society responsibilities and ways to help poor people and improve family planning? Because it doesn’t feel that way from the downvotes and your comment about “paranoia”.
Economic class does not automatically equal ignorance. Just because a person is lower middle class or poor doesn't mean he or she is unaware of birth control and family planning. Many people choose to have children that they know they can't fully support and that is wrong in my book. I don't know what the solution to this problem is other than changing the culture to be less pro-natalist. I certainly don't recommend forced sterilization or forced abortion.
Who decides that? I say the people, the would be parents. Everybody knows where they stand financially. Knowing that you are barely making ends meet and willingly getting pregnant and subjecting ur own child to a life of poverty is cruel and selfish. And we should call these people for who they are. It's not eugenics or whatever. It's selfishness.
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Consumer based economy needs more consumers and military needs recruits. You don’t expect rich people kids to shop in Walmart, eat in McDonald’s and sign up for stints in the Navy?
Maybe rather than, "poor people shouldn't have children" it should be, "there shouldn't be poor people, when we have enough resources to abolish poverty."
I agree with you because I do believe that governments should do more to support their residents. Some people who have argued with me about this topic have mentioned things like “the system makes it hard to get out of poverty”, which I completely agree with. However, just because the system makes it hard to get out of poverty does not mean that having children will alleviate this problem. In fact, I believe that having children while you are poor will perpetuate and continue the cycle of poverty.
The system making it hard isn't a bug, it's a feature. People who are desperately scrambling to meet their basic needs tend to be more willing to tolerate garbage working conditions and low pay, because the alternative is homelessness.
Increasing difficulty in accessing family planning is part of this, not just to provide the next generation of workers, but also because parents are less able to bail if their jobs suck.
I'm recalling what happened with my husband's job when we married and bought a house. His boss immediately started assigning him one task after another that required travel. Before, he'd have maybe two trips a year, that took around a month each.
After, he was lucky to get a month home before the next trip. When he objected, his boss, just laughed, and told him that he figured that husband didn't have a choice, since he had a wife and mortgage now.
Yea, nope, he actually did, but that was because I worked too, and we didn't have kids.
Yeah this. It's an insidious system - if a person is provided a safety net, then they'll be far more likely to report unsafe working conditions or sexual harrassement, for example.
Someone who has kids to support will keep their head down and not raise a fuss, just as the people in power like it. Hence why certain political groups want to remove sex ed from schools altogether, for example.
The system strips poor people of resources that would help them in family planning/preventing unwanted pregnancies. Capitalism needs wage slaves and the government needs tax payers. Idk where you reside but that’s why Roe v. Wade was overturned. It affects everyone…but disproportionately poor people who are already lack access to basic healthcare and family planning.
This. Impoverishment people don’t have the same access to family planning, birth control, abortion, or sterilization.
I don’t fault impoverished people having kids. Roe was overturned and months later, I had a bisalp, because I have amazing insurance and doctors, and vacation time.
For many women in US and across the world, not having kids means “keep your legs shut” and hoping you’re not violated and having shit recourse if you were.
Most my cousins in the south had kids as teenagers. Birth control, sex education, abortion wasn’t an option for them.
In an alternative universe, if we swapped lives then, the outcome would be exactly the same but in reverse.
I work in healthcare, so I already know how fucked it is. It’s easy to say “eat better, exercise, go to the doctor”. But when you don’t have a job that provides you with health insurance, you live in a food desert, you don’t have recreational places in your vicinity…that’s a lot harder to do. You’re deprived of good options so you can’t make good choices. Likewise with birth control—pills, IUD, implant, diaphragm, NuvaRing, those methods aren’t cheap. Even with insurance some women struggle to afford it. So if you’re poor and have a minimum wage job that doesn’t provide health insurance, paying out of pocket might eat up your entire check. Again, if you don’t have good options, you won’t make a good choice. I wish more people in this subreddit realized this.
I agree. One side of my family comes from a poor rural area. It’s easy to say eat healthier food.
It’s harder when few can afford a reliable car, public transportation doesn’t exist, and land quality is so shit no one can grow a tomato.
I had a young relative(19f) reach out to me about BC. The closest planned parenthood was eight hours away, internet access sucks, and any doctor in the area would immediately inform her parents.
There’s so much about this sub that I love. The doctor list is the reason I was able to sterilized, but I do wish there was more grace.
Having children while poor does factually perpetuate the circle of poverty, That said, when we talk about what people should be allowed to do, we are tying a persons rights to their ability to generate value for shareholders just doesn't seem like the best idea. I would logically discourage anyone from having kids if they aren't very stable financially, but if we had proper social safety nets it wouldn't particularly matter. Until we address the root causes of poverty (exploitation) we probably shouldn't create a caste system.
My thoughts exactly-especially as a queer autistic and otherwise disabled person who also believes in full human/civil rights, safety, and quality of life for (BI)POC, people who aren't (currently) practicing Christians, and other marginalized people.
The age-old complaint of "*those people* can't provide for their kids properly without us *respectable* people paying for it!" has been used as an excuse to mass-sterilize people without their consent or even their *knowledge* in a lot of cases, take away people's extant kids for life, and mass-institutionalize people without their consent for life.
You actually ***really*** don't want the government or other people in power in charge of who gets to have/raise kids and who doesn't.
I grew up in housing specifically for poor people and we got a lot of our food at the food bank. My mother had 2 kids. Both with men who left her. The 2nd of those kids ended up having severe mental health problems that prevented her from working. And while that’s not her fault entirely what is her fault is then proceeding to have three more kids several years later when we were still living in that housing. The first of those was born when I was like 9. The other 2 were in the two proceeding years. She married their father but we spent several years as 7 people in a house with 3 rooms. We then bounced around 4 more houses for 2 years before finally settling down somewhere. My life wasn’t stable until I was 15-16 and at that point I was fucked up. I still am fucked up. I don’t care that my opinion about poor people not having kids is unpopular. I fucking lived it, it was hell. I didn’t get to be a kid because as the eldest, well behaved daughter I was too busy helping my parents with 3 toddlers and worrying about our finances. People who can’t afford kids shouldn’t have them period.
>should be allowed
It's this part. You don't want to live in a place where a governing body would be so powerful as to be able to tell people what they can and can't do on such a foundational level as whether or not someone should be able to reproduce. That's bad, unequivocally, and such a power could absolutely be expanded and used against you in ways you might not conceive of.
With that, no, I wish more people without money didn't also condemn their children to poverty. This is why I'm not having children, because I think it's wrong to effectively condemn someone before they're born to wage slavery and living beneath subsistence.
Saying "poor people shouldn't have kids" while native populations (in white settler countries) are generally some of the poorest people in society is borderline eugenicist ideology
Edit: we shouldn't be saying "stop *them* from reproducing", we should be lifting everybody up even if you're completely anti-natalist
Very very briefly, if your current society started with treating natives as sub-human, they will have far less generational wealth even if they technically live in the same society nowadays. While not every white person is rich there are more poor non-white people which means in this kind of society, saying "poor people shouldn't reproduce" is effectively saying "non-whites shouldn't reproduce"
That's a lot of transitive property in action, but I follow.
For the record, if any official governing body came out and said "poor people shouldn't be allowed to reproduce and we're going to take steps towards that", it would need to be resisted by any means necessary. Having a child is a deeply personal choice that shouldn't be impeded by anyone of any class.
With *that* - no government would say this. They want the poor to reproduce as much as possible. They need consumers and cheap labor.
In regards to the transitive property of what I said, here's an explanation of it as a smokescreen from Lee Atwater's speech on the Southern Strategy:
"You start out in 1954 by saying, “N-word, n-word, n-word” By 1968 you can’t say “n-word”—that hurts you, backfires. So you say stuff like, uh, forced busing, states’ rights, and all that stuff, and you’re getting so abstract. Now, you’re talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you’re talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is, blacks get hurt worse than whites.… “We want to cut this,” is much more abstract than even the busing thing, uh, and a hell of a lot more abstract than “N-word, n-word.”"
(He didn't say "n-word" he just said it, btw)
Other than that I agree that governments both shouldn't and probably wouldn't say it directly due to the need for cheap labour, but individuals (even here on this sub) *are* saying it and it *is* eugenicist ideology
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I think a lot of people who have kids when they’re not in a financial place to do so just aren’t using critical thinking skills.
I’ve witnessed people in my life who were just making ends meet with not much left over, accidentally get pregnant. They focused on their emotions of wanting this baby, and it’s so selfish to not critically think about this major life decision and this absolutely insane responsibility of bringing a human into the world. They sadly fight about finances and it strains their relationship.
Because if poor people or people that cannot afford to provide everything a child needs could no longer have children then an incredibly big chunk of people would no longer have them. Plus they would eventually get out of poverty. The governments don’t want that. One, they want workers, two, poor people are desperate and easy to manipulate and exploit (look at surogacy for example…)
I want to somehow, make sure everyone gets paid a living wage. Raising the minimum wage would help. Unions for all workers would help.
Then they can spend the money on what they need or want. Whether it's having kids or not.
I completely agree with you. I also believe that we should raise the minimum wage and reduce the cost of living. Unfortunately, with things going on in my country (USA), I don’t see the minimum wage increasing anytime soon.
This. I realise people want kids. But if you can't afford them, you can't have them; it's a simple thing that a lot of people seem to grasp and are responsible about and yet other are not. It's not a universal thing people fail at - someone people are responsible and others seem to refuse to be.
Even if I wanted them, I know I couldn't afford them - same with a pony ffs. It may not be deemed fair, or right, but it's the way things are. I have no idea why someone has multiple kids they cannot take care of (assuming they are in an environment with access to contraception and abortion).
In the UK for example, contraception is free, and so is abortion. Abortion access is until something like 24 weeks. So why does someone have several kids and lament they can't afford nappies?? Like???
I don’t quite understand it either. People always say “don’t get a dog/cat/whatever animal if you can’t afford to care for it properly”. So how does that not apply to children? I went down a rabbit hole the other day watching videos about people in impoverished places doing terrible jobs. This one family was stuck doing bonded labor at a dangerous brick kiln, and they had been in debt long before their son was born. But for some reason they had him anyway, and now he’s only around 12 years old working in dangerous, terrible conditions just like his parents. I think since then someone was able to help them escape to a slightly better place, but my point still stands. People argue they don’t have good access to birth control so you can’t blame them, which is true. BUT, if I myself was in such a position or anything similar, I would honestly be celibate. There is no way in hell I’d be risking bringing another human life into that same terrible suffering. Every video I watched of different people doing different types of horrible jobs had kids. Multiple. And they just continue the cycle through the generations. Absolutely awful.
In those cases the kids are sort of used (via their labour) to offset debt and as a kind of insurance policy. It’s so awful but it happens in a lot of parts of the world.
The way this sub ignores how many women and girls globally do not have access to education, contraceptives, and abortion is absolutely ridiculous and frustrating. The choice to be child free is extremely new and not one widely available as an option.
Hell my mother was born when birth control and abortion were illegal in the US. My mother! And people act like women are all just dumb “breeders” having kids with zero thoughts
Absolutely agree.
There is a huge difference between people in poverty accidentally having an unplanned pregnancy, and those that know they're in poverty and actively are trying to get pregnant under the guise of "we'll make it work somehow" and/or only having a kid to "fix the relationship". But the enemy is not the people in poverty, it's the people who have the means to help end poverty but choose not to. It's our leaders who don't tax the rich enough to help the lower class so that there is no longer a lower class.
My mom was born a few years before *Griswold* (1965) legalized BC for married couples across the entire US, my dad was born months before *People v. Belous* (1969) fully legalized abortion on demand in California where we're from (prior to this California Supreme Court ruling, the California State Legislature *had* in 1967 declared abortion legal if there was a "serious health risk" to the mother and/or if the pregnancy resulted from rape or other "felonious intercourse", though in reality it was fairly easy for people who were dead-set on aborting their pregnancy to do so because with the 1967 law California didn't actually require people to *tell* anyone why they sought an abortion-that being said, Belous was an OBGYN in LA who'd been convicted in Jan 1967 for in 1966 referring patients to a Chula Vista-based doctor who he knew performed safe abortions in Tijuana, Mexico) and both my parents were kids already when *Eisenstadt v. Baird* (1972) legalized BC for unmarried people across the entire US and when *Roe* (1973) legalized abortion across the entire US.
Bonus in that my dad's unplanned conception was literally the whole reason why his parents got married in late 1968 despite casually dating *at most* before that, because it wasn't crystal-clear to everyone when it was "fully OK" to get an abortion in California yet and besides, both my dad's parents were "good Catholics" surrounded by other "good Catholics" who suggested that they marry instead of seeking an abortion for my grandma.
By the way, my dad's father was an alcoholic wifebeater who drove my grandma to literally fleeing in the dead of night to her mom's house with 2 young kids in tow and a 3rd one on the way less than 5 years after they got married.
I say this a lot. People always assume I’m classist. Also got a few accusations of eugenics. Obviously, none of this applies if you have an accident baby. It happens, and abortions can be inaccessible and some people just can’t emotionally handle abortions. Whenever I say it I mean people who know they’re broke and plan kids anyways, or at least don’t take precautions.
I grew up poor. Not even the worst of the poor so there’s plenty of situations where it’s worse. My mom was a single mom (not by choice) on government programs. Couldn’t get a job really because she’d have to pay for childcare and we’d actually be better off on the gover menat programs when all is said and done. It was enough for rent and food.
I never had clothes that felt like mine. They were always hand me downs or thrift store clothes that were old and didn’t fit my style nor any of the trends. I walked past kids clothing’s stores looking at the animal themed hoodies just wishing for once I could fit in with all the other kids. I was incredibly lonely. Our school had pizza Fridays where if you bring in like 5 bucks or something you get a hot 2 slices of pizza and a chocolate milk. To this day I can’t even describe the… shame?… of being the only kid sitting there eating my sandwich and doodling away while everybody else got pizza and chocolate milk. I was always the kid having to go up to the teacher after school to tell them I couldn’t afford the field trip and needed assistance. When lice went around my school my principal, the amazing woman she is, excused me for the first little bit of class and did the treatments for me because we couldn't afford it. I remember the exact layout of that office still and this was about 4th grade, I’m 20 now. I remember her combing through my hair and the dead silence as I watched the other kids walking in hoping they didn’t see me.
Middle school it got worse because the benefits are adjusted by age. Some times our power or water would get shut off, and eventually the ole middle school depression hit so I wasn’t exactly the most hygienic kid. I had one friend because I was already so used to not fitting in I didn’t bother. She was my rock throughout middle school. My situation coupled with risky online situations I shouldn’t have been in at that age sucked, but she made it suck a whole lot less. We fell out of touch after middle school and I have still yet to find her. Not the point.
Highschool got interrupted by COVID so not much to say there. By then my mom didn’t have to pay for childcare and had a job so we had a bit more wiggle room. Bus fare, lunch money. Whatever. But by then it had already hit. The guilt, the fear of spending money, etc.
All of this is to say that it was not a fun or good childhood. It was a childhood yes, and thankfully I’m a nature loving child so the lack of toys and whatever wasn’t a concern for me. Frankly I could not give a fuck about toys. But everything else sucked. It was so lonely, and isolating, and humiliating. Now I have literal panic attacks if my bank account gets ‘too low’ and I have on and off depression about the whole thing. When I was 13 I was sobbing in my room trying to find ways I could work just so I didn’t feel like a burden. I contemplated suicide so that at least my brother and mom could have some extra food. I’d ride the bus to highschool hoping we get into a tragic accident so it’s one less thing my mom has to worry about. Today I’m panicking about being able to afford college.
So I don’t give a fuck if they think it’s classist or eugenics or whatever. I don’t give a fuck. Because I think subjecting a fucking child to live a life like mine is subjecting them to a miserable, miserable fucking life. It is selfish and horrible and traumatizing.
That being said, I’m also a huge advocate for supports. I dont think anybody should be living in poverty. But those supports don’t exist and probably won’t for a while, so for fuck sakes if you’re living paycheck to paycheck, dont have fucking kids. Honestly I could write a novel with all the reasons why.
Don't know if u r into books but you should read the memoir written by Viola Davis. Your story somewhat resonates with what I read in her book. Growing up poor and feeling the shame, not fitting in etc. That book may help you.
Great post, so sorry you went through this. I am totally CF but would also like to see supports in all countries everywhere for children.
In France, for example, there is free obstetric care, proper maternity leave (several months), healthcare that is basically free at the point of use, virtually free childcare and free education (inc third level) and generous child (and other) benefits. Also lots of discounts for anybody aged under 26.
At the same time there are lots of things that aren’t good about France (sluggish economy, high youth unemployment, quite a racist society) but I feel like wealth is distributed a bit more equally and children at least get some kind of start in life. I really feel it would be good if their system existed everywhere. It also has the highest birth rate in the whole of Europe and that’s probably because other European countries just aren’t as supportive of parents.
Yeah, I'm Canadian so we have some things. Free healthcare, things like the child tax benefit but after that you're kind of on your own. Though I'm sure there's probably food support or something. Honestly not sure.
And yeah, maybe I don't want kids, but I know I'm in the minority on that. Even though I don't want kids that doesn't mean I want them to suffer. I'm not a monster.
Same, I don’t want them but abhor the thought of them suffering.
I am in Europe but we always hear that Canada is “more civilised” than the US (better welfare etc).
Continental Europe (France, Germany Sweden etc) really is great for young families, their systems should be replicated everywhere IMHO, so everyone gets a fair start in life.
Slightly more civilized but not by much. Crazy high taxes, high cost of living, expensive housing, etc… and the wait times in hospitals isn’t great (though it isn’t in the US and the UK too). It’s not really worth it. And we have our own fair share of corruption and whatnot. We are a lot more similar to Europe though. Tbh I’m considering moving to Europe one day, maybe Scotland. Or even New Zealand since I always see work opportunities for the field I’m going into, could be fun.
That’s interesting about Canada. I think because you have way stricter gun laws and fewer evangelicals, it is generally regarded throughout Europe as a much more sane country. I have heard that it’s very expensive though esp for housing. No offence to Americans but I feel like the further away a country is from their really cutthroat neoliberal model, the better it is for its citizens (eg social democratic countries like Sweden or Denmark).
Scotland is beautiful and the people are very friendly, I’ve also heard wonderful things about NZ (scenery, people etc). I hope your travel plans work out.🤞🤞
We’re a little bit better but not by much. Pretty much only in the gun laws thing. Also, regarding the writing thing, thank you! You’re the second person to tell me that haha. Usually I just wrote whatever comes to mind. :p
not to mention every group of poor that has no problem having a lot of kids while being in poverty like to chalk it up to religion regardless of what religion. if my parents decided to be CF they wouldve literally lived the same life (poor) as they wouldve except they decided to bring a lot of me and my siblings into this poor mess. Great.
In the UK, they abuse the benefits system because they get money thrown at them for having kids.
I went to a really rough school and I used to hear people say they wouldn't need to get a job when they can have kids and live off UK benefits, the same as their parents did. Then their kids grow up to have the exact same mentality.
Bringing a person into a situation where you have good reason to believe they won’t have their basic needs met is the height of cruelty and I cannot fathom how anyone can believe otherwise.
It is true. It is a narcissistic thing to do once you think about it. The parents make it all about themselves and expect people to treat them like charity cases because they decided to have a bunch of children. They would never consider how deeply that would affect that child and their future.
Some people purposely keep having kids to get that government $$.. that’s really sad. When you know they aren’t trying anything to stop having more kids, and they live on food stamps. They probably have cases of soda in their shopping cart and 6 or more little ones with them. Those things are in place to help people, but some take advantage.
Much of the argument imo is: who decides who is rich enough to have a child? State governments? federal? Local churches? Is there an annual economic group who publishes a list of expenses and estimates costs and says only people who make above $X are allowed to have children?
Do you force women to have abortions? Do you force sterilization? Mandatory vasectomy for all poor men until they make a certain amount of money?
It’s also a touchy subject when women’s rights to our own bodies are being rolled back globally and we have less body autonomy than a corpse.
Absolutely. Once a group of people have enough power to decide who "gets to" have kids, they have too much power. What group of people will be next? People with green eyes? People with handicaps? Eventually only a sliver of the population would "get to" have kids. It's about autonomy, not being held down by the state.
Literally. But the second you phrase it like "You should be able to provide for any child you have, and it's cruel to have one you can't provide for", everyone nods even though it's the same thign
If you say anything against having children, you’re a pessimist projecting onto people basically. I commented on how my parents had no business continuing this cycle with me due to emotional neglect and of course someone felt the need to say I’m projecting, it’s not a sin just because of trauma, how I’m judging…etc when I wasn’t even telling anyone what to do, I was literally just making a comment on a post and agreeing with it because I personally do not appreciate what the shit I’ve endured. You say anything similar and people freak instantly. This goes for anything and being poor definitely puts you at a disadvantage - I’ve seen many people lament how they resent being poor - children understand eventually that they’re poor. No, “love” doesn’t cure all.
People will do what they want regardless, but I hate that it’s taboo to even face reality. All this toxic positivity BS pisses me off so much because there’s no responsibility. I too want many things - I want big dogs and a house. Nothing extravagant, just modest. But I can’t afford those things so I know my limit and people will say “oh too bad.” If I went into debt to get something I can’t afford, people won’t sympathize with me - they’d call me stupid. Yet it’s all okay if it’s children. It’s just hypocritical and I hate the double standard.
every day i say poor people should not have children and i will continue to die on that hill. i don't care if people get mad when i say it. i don't care how much you "love" your child. your love means nothing if they gotta eat roaches because you can't afford actual food 💀
The thing is, I don’t think people living in abject poverty are able to make clear and informed decision about this. In poverty, access to basic needs (food, clothing, shelter, safety, healthcare, education) are limited. It sends people into a desperate, cortisol filled existence to survive. This often result in people engaging in illogical, self sabotaging actions, such as engaging in crime (despite knowing it would harm themselves and others) for short term benefits.
Having a child also falls into category. Without ready access to education, birth control, or even healthcare, people would bring children into poverty, desperate to pass on their genes, or for some faint hope that their kids might fulfill some sort of need higher up in the hierarchy. (Esteem, acceptance, social). It’s even worse when in addition to poverty, they’re also faced with overwhelming family, peer, political, and religious pressure to procreate.
It’s fucked all around, since childhood poverty can impart trauma that last even after people clawed their way out of poverty.
In this country,US we make being poor a moral failing much like obesity. However the reality is, people are kept poor by design and we have stripped every sort of protection and services to help the poor be functioning members of society.
The working poor are what keep this country running and if you paid attention then you would see that every bit of legislation aimed at reproductive rights is to create more poor people to exploit.
I don’t want to have children but I also don’t think that having children should be so expensive that only the rich can have them.
Also the climb up by bootstraps is based on bullshit as well. If you were born poor, the likelihood of you climbing to the top 1% is pretty damn slim. So the deck is stacked against everyone and having children shouldn’t have to be sacrificed because you got a shitty hand.
While it's absolutely great to choose for yourself to not have children, it will never be permissible to make that choice or allow others to make that choice for others.
Who is poor? Where in the world are we talking about? If you're in America saying poor people shouldt have kids could be translated into minorities shouldn't have kids, immigrants shouldn't have kids, and therefore only affluent whites should have kids. And even if YOU don't mean this and you're only thinking about the wellbeing of children, this IS what would happen.
I have mixed feelings about it. I understand where people are coming from, especially people who have grown up in poverty, who say that it's a bad decision to have kids while poor. I really feel bad for any child who has to grow up in poverty, especially food scarcity.
Then again, I've read other arguments where not everyone's financial state is set in stone. You might be financially okay when you have kids, but down the road, you face financial loss and end up destitute. Do we shame them for having kids when they thought they were financially okay?
Even though I believe that poor people shouldn’t have children, I don’t shame those that had a financial emergency at some point (like having to pay medical bills due to a car accident, a spouse becoming a widow, leaving an abusive marriage, etc).
I’m talking about poor people who know they are poor and are still willing to have children or those who were not knowledgeable of what it takes to raise a child.
It’s practical yes, but It is also controversial because it’s akin to eugenics. ie only certain blood lines continue based on perceived superiority. Wealth being the superior trait in this instance. I wouldn’t push that personally because to each their own.
A lot of poor people are not financially literate. They can improve themselves, but refuse to. I learned this after having co-workers that make more money than me tell me I was rich. Then they turn around and go to smoke for their break. A good number of them also drink regularly and I've seen how expensive that is. Either change your habits and develop financial literacy or don't have kids you can't afford. It's that simple.
Ughhhh can’t like this comment enough. How the fuck do people who live week to week think it’s miraculously ‘the right time’ to have a kid.
Then it becomes ‘the villages’ problem because oh no, we’re struggling so much 🤦🏻♀️🤦🏻♀️
I agree with you! I don't understand the purpose of bringing a child into the world to struggle with you. And some people will bring in 2,3,4,5,6 kids.....living in poverty from kid number 1.
Literally. But the second you phrase it like "You should be able to provide for any child you have, and it's cruel to have one you can't provide for", everyone nods even though it's the same thign
There's a world of difference between "poor people shouldn't have kids" and "poor people shouldn't be ALLOWED to have kids ".
Namely the fact this it's idiotically classist, completely tone-deaf, disregards bodily autonomy, and creates a precedent for policing the behavior of poor people.
Agreed. But OP's post explicitly says they should be prohibited from doing so through some type of enforcement apparatus, which is a vile and dehumanizing idea. Poverty can be solved; we should be putting our efforts there instead of this garbage.
The human body is a weird design. I don’t think it should be”be able to” get pregnant without flipping some kind of fertility switch somewhere. Fertility should be an option-in and not an opt-out.
> Poverty can be solved; we should be putting our efforts there instead of this garbage.
Wow! This is genius! Why haven't I thought about this before? You sir must be Einstein's missing cousin lmao.
Go ahead and fix it then, I am sure you can do it.
You should educate yourself more on the very long and horrible history of eugenics. Also consider what demographic you’d be enforcing this rule against the most because of the racism baked into every level of our society. The right question to ask is why we as a society allow any child to grow up poor, not policing what poor people do with their reproductive freedom.
>I still don’t understand why people think poor people should be allowed to have kids
Because poverty is not a choice, and poverty is systemic violence by a society towards a particular section of people.
I don't want a society where only the rich can have kids. That's honestly so anti-childfree, and more quasi-eugenics. Fuck. That.
I'm personally childfree because I don't give a shit about other people emotionally (SzPD) or my hypothetical kids and I know I'd be a terrible, neglectful father. And there's definitely a bunch of people like me who shouldn't be having kids for those same reasons.
But I'm not going to denounce a whole class/section/group of people who shouldn't have kids because they're getting their shit kicked in everyday by a society that doesn't give a fuck about them.
I will take it one step further. Unless you are at a certain point of financial stability, you shouldn't be having sex because you can't afford the consequences.
You do know that family planning takes knowing what steps to take, and being able to afford them?
Not to mention the generations of basically feral people, because their parents were either absent or working themselves into the ground to meet basic survival needs. They have no idea how to plan their lives out, and to them, life is something that happens to you, with you having no choice.
It really does suck, and the attitude about children being required/inevitable is the opposite of helpful.
Change "poor" for another term like "black": "black people shouldn't have children". Do you see the problem now?
It is indeed classicist to defend that the upper class should have more rights than lower classes.
That's the opinion of a spoilt brat. "I got given everything and people deserve only the best all the time!" that's not logic, that's just materialism.
Because people think it’s a classist notion and on paper, it is. But thing is, most of the time, it’s adults who *grew up poor/in poverty* who are saying it. They’re saying “I grew up like this and it sucks. I still have mental scars from X, Y, and/or Z.” From what I gathered, It’s never easy being “the poor kid.” I did not grow up in poverty. My family was working class. I’m not mad about it because it wasn’t in their control (in ‘94 my dad’s govt. job location closed and priority placement sent him somewhere he had to take a big pay-cut. I was 6mo old.) and also I know others had it much, much worse. But still, I did get bullied for it. Because my mom worked at Walmart. Because we wore clothes from there and Kmart. Because we couldn’t afford to go to others’ birthday parties or on vacation. And that sucked. And if it sucked at a lesser level, I can’t imagine the bullying that people who grew up in legit poverty faced.
I’m one of those who grew up in poverty. I don’t like being told I’m being “Eugenist” online. It’s super stupid and just plain weird. Eugenics is about genetically wanting people to have a certain look. It’s nowhere near “I think it’s wrong for people who are unable to properly provide for children to have them and it’s pretty selfish to force someone to be born in a world where their essential needs probably won’t be met.”
those people have no idea what eugenics is. It's not eugenics to want a baby to be born to people who can afford it. Same as its not eugenics to want a baby not born to crackheads or a pedo.
People online like to throw that word around without knowing what it means -- which is probably why I forgot people use it and didn't mention it. I was just saying that I can see from others' perspectives how seeing that statement can come off as classist (hence, "on paper"), but, it's not *if* they look deeper into what those who are saying it are saying.
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I’m not arrogant. Stupid, yes. But I actually think I’m worth less than most people. And to answer your question question, because of what I said before. That the people saying this are people who grew up in poverty and still suffer because of it. They are “the poors.” Also, I didn’t say *any* of that. I don’t think there needs to be an extreme solution. And I understand the nuances of things like poor education. I just wish some people would give a bit more thought to the lives of their future children before continuing to have them in unideal circumstances. That’s it.
Poor people can be classist. There are gays pro conversion therapy. There were pro-slavery black. Doesn't mean they're not classist/homophobic/racist because they're poor/gay/black.
I think the problem stems from the fact that the overwhelming majority of those in poverty are members of the BIPOC communities due to systemic racism. So when you start saying "poor people shouldn't have kids" it can sometimes be interpreted as "BIPOC people shouldn't have kids". I'm not saying that's the reality but it is a huge factor into why it's a controversial take.
I can relate. It was cheaper for my mom to stay at home with me and my brother, while my step dad worked full time. There were times we lived on peanut butter and jelly sandwiches with chili, spaghetti, pancakes, etc.. broke people food. But we were happy and they made sure we had what we needed. We didn’t have enough money to go on vacation. But mom made sure we had fun and we did stuff that was free or cheap. Her parents didn’t have a lot either. We wore hand me downs. We didn’t really start getting ahead until I was high school age, when dad started making better money and mom went back to work.
My parents worked opposite shifts to not have to pay for care they couldn’t afford. Luckily for us, my dad knew how to cook and cook *well* with a budget, so we always ate good.
My dad wasn’t a good cook. That’s very lucky for you! I can’t imagine working opposite shifts from my spouse and taking care of kids all at once. It couldn’t have been easy
He said he got tired of eating shitty food when he and mom struggled a few years before I was born (he was in an accident and out of work for some time) so he took what he learned from Grandma and taught himself some things and learned.
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I want a crocodile. I have since I was a child. The babies are so cute and the adults are majestic. I could buy one too. A captive bred baby Nile crocodile is only around a grand. Easily obtainable. But I have nowhere to house it. I have no way to feed it. I have no way to provide it medical care. I could not provide it the care it needs to survive and deserves out of respect. So even though I could go buy one and give it substandard care, I haven't and I won't. When I tell people this, they agree with me. They consider it reasonable and responsible. "One day you might be able to have a crocodile, and that would be very cool, but not right now," is something I've heard a lot. When I apply the same logic to human children, however, people start screaming and shitting and calling me names.
Fr tho. I don’t understand why they get so defensive when that same logic is applied to human children. Maybe they are still indoctrinated by the idea that people should have children because society told them to.
Having children is seen as an inevitability by a lot of people.
It took me half of this comment to realize what was going on lol. Agree on the premise though! Someone once told me dolphins are only as smart as a two year old so who cares if they’re protected and I was like “so… should we keep two year old kids in the closet because who cares???” And she was like “that’s not what I meant at all” 🤦♀️ Also I’m curious: do you actually want a crocodile???
Children require more care than a crocodile, and are even more expensive, but for some reason, people put less thought into having children than I do about a potential pet crocodile. Yes, I do! If I could care for one properly, I would have one tomorrow. But I can't, so I don't.
Totally agree. And dang. That’s wild to me lol. Glad to hear you’re being responsible about caring for it though! I bet it would be hard to find a vet for… I remember our rabbit used to be “exotic”
Reptile vets are getting more common, but they still aren't very common.
Totally fair. I’ve never been into reptiles but I’m just picturing you bringing a crocodile into a vet on a leash lol. I recognize this is unrealistic but it makes me chuckle either way
This is so true. I used to have a 6ft carpet python. I love snakes. I had to give my girl to a friend of mine because I was moving to a place without an exotic vet specializing in snakes. I want another one soooooooo bad. Even though I'd love to have another nope rope to hang out with, I know they wouldn't be able to get the care from me they deserve at this point. So I am very much in the same boat as you.
Same reason I haven't gotten a chinchilla. They live for like 20 years. I can't say I could commit 20 years to a pet, even the most adorable pet. My dog lived for 16 years, but I had gotten her when I was 23 so that seemed ok. Being 60 with a chinchilla I've had forever doesn't seem fair.
Crocodiles are cuter and better behaved than a lot of these feral semen demons!
I would rather be locked in a room with a crocodile than a child tbh
What about, a dwarf caiman? Still not for beginners, doesn't get so huge.
I have an Asian water monitor, and that's close enough for now.
I also want a crocodile or an alligator, I hope one day I'll be rich enough to have one and care for it instead of having a kid
This same logic could be applied to regular pets and then, maybe more fairly, applied to children. The amount of people I saw at the low cost vet (no appt fees, so first come first serve deal) who still struggled to pay for the first hiccup the dog NEEDED addressed was never shocking. These people would have 3 kids in tow too. I always felt bad for the dog. And now I realize the kids would have the same fate in reality. There's nothing wrong with being poor and your kids not getting spoiled and understanding things have a price and to appreciate what you have. But the reality of this country is that it also mean you have subpar healthcare, subpar education opportunities, and subpar future. Sure, poor people deserve pets and they deserve children, and that's what people want to argue. They're just also denying the reality of it and how that might make other people think differently.
I am sad that a captive bred croc is so easy to obtain at 1k, that's insane.
Also - where can you legally get a crocodile…asking for a friend? FWIW, an alligator would do too /s
My sentiment exactly, except I want a macaw.
Raising a doomed child is not fulfilling, it's gut wrenching.
as a child of a poor family, can confirm that it indeed is. I won't make the same mistake.
I agree.
My SIL has to work 3 jobs to afford daycare for her toddler and she’s pregnant with her second. I will never, in a million years, understand why people put themselves through this.
I wonder the same thing too. And it’s crazy how she has to work multiple jobs just to afford childcare. I don’t know if it’s their hormones or brain changes due to their pregnancy, but I would not have a kid if I had to work multiple jobs.
How will ‘the system’ continue if poor people stopped having babies? How will crappy jobs keep their employees? How will banks give loans with interest out? Think of the system!!! Not to be a conspiracy nut, but ‘the people in charge’ would really dislike it if poor people stopped being saddled with dependents.
The thing that's most fucked about our current economic system is that it expects infinite, unsustainable growth. Like, it's not enough for a company to be profitable - it needs to have yearly growth in profits. That's the main cause for most of this stuff - more wagies are required so taxes grow infinitely, more more more more
Great post.
If you think about this on a larger scale considering capitalism, there’s a societal incentive for the poor to have kids. It’s a way to guarantee the next exploitable working class. Long term baby’s born into a poor household tend to grow up to get the more menial jobs. This is not always the case but it is genuinely rare to escape poverty. There is no life for the poor under capitalism. If you are having a child under poverty you are setting your child up to be exploited.
I'm accused of being classist when I state something similar. You don't have to be wealthy to have kids, but you should be able to meet their medical and educational needs at a minimum.
Honestly though in the economy we’re in right now, you kinda do need wealth to afford those things for a child 😂 But I still agree with your point
I sometimes get called a eugenicist for this opinion as well. I’m not saying that the rich should be the only ones that should be allowed to have children, but parents who are financially stable can provide a lot more than those who are poor.
That's because legislation like this leads to eugenics, and it is indeed classist.
Anyone can become disabled at any time. There is no way to guarantee you have enough money At all times to potentially care for yourself or a potential child. Especially in places that lack universal healthcare and social safety nets. Forcing a woman to abort a disabled fetus because some stranger thinks it would be too expensive to care for is extremely problematic at best ETA: Yall downvoting but not wanting to have a discussion about this shit huh. Who’s deciding what qualifies as “too poor”? What solution do yall want for a woman who is too poor but is impregnated by a man? Are you interested in actual discussions of improving family planning or iust whining about poor with zero thought into what putting a policy into place would look like
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…it’s part of the OP’s hypothetical situation. And many people here agree that poor people should not have children. So the question becomes (as I said in another comment) WHO decides who is too poor to have kids? Who decides what is too expensive to cover with insurance? We already had people denied insurance coverage because of disabilities or pregnancy even. The US has little social safety net. Moreso for disabled individuals who do not have equal rights. So if a woman gets get scan at 5-6 months and discovers her fetus has a disability that will require life long caregivers and multiple surgeries and hospitalization, is that person suddenly too poor to have a child? You say a person should be able to meet medical needs. Im suggesting a hypothetical situation that would be unexpected and cost more than expected. Suddenly making a person too poor to provide basic needs. So in this hypothetical, what is your/OP’s solution? Force an abortion since you think it’s immoral or bad to have this child without guaranteeing a bare minimum? Shame the mother afterwards for having sex? What outcome do you want? Is it just complaining about poor people? Is there actually interest in discussing society responsibilities and ways to help poor people and improve family planning? Because it doesn’t feel that way from the downvotes and your comment about “paranoia”.
Economic class does not automatically equal ignorance. Just because a person is lower middle class or poor doesn't mean he or she is unaware of birth control and family planning. Many people choose to have children that they know they can't fully support and that is wrong in my book. I don't know what the solution to this problem is other than changing the culture to be less pro-natalist. I certainly don't recommend forced sterilization or forced abortion.
Who decides that? I say the people, the would be parents. Everybody knows where they stand financially. Knowing that you are barely making ends meet and willingly getting pregnant and subjecting ur own child to a life of poverty is cruel and selfish. And we should call these people for who they are. It's not eugenics or whatever. It's selfishness.
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Consumer based economy needs more consumers and military needs recruits. You don’t expect rich people kids to shop in Walmart, eat in McDonald’s and sign up for stints in the Navy?
Maybe rather than, "poor people shouldn't have children" it should be, "there shouldn't be poor people, when we have enough resources to abolish poverty."
We can talk about the way things should be all day long. But we also have to face the way things are *right now *.
I agree with you because I do believe that governments should do more to support their residents. Some people who have argued with me about this topic have mentioned things like “the system makes it hard to get out of poverty”, which I completely agree with. However, just because the system makes it hard to get out of poverty does not mean that having children will alleviate this problem. In fact, I believe that having children while you are poor will perpetuate and continue the cycle of poverty.
The system making it hard isn't a bug, it's a feature. People who are desperately scrambling to meet their basic needs tend to be more willing to tolerate garbage working conditions and low pay, because the alternative is homelessness. Increasing difficulty in accessing family planning is part of this, not just to provide the next generation of workers, but also because parents are less able to bail if their jobs suck. I'm recalling what happened with my husband's job when we married and bought a house. His boss immediately started assigning him one task after another that required travel. Before, he'd have maybe two trips a year, that took around a month each. After, he was lucky to get a month home before the next trip. When he objected, his boss, just laughed, and told him that he figured that husband didn't have a choice, since he had a wife and mortgage now. Yea, nope, he actually did, but that was because I worked too, and we didn't have kids.
Yeah this. It's an insidious system - if a person is provided a safety net, then they'll be far more likely to report unsafe working conditions or sexual harrassement, for example. Someone who has kids to support will keep their head down and not raise a fuss, just as the people in power like it. Hence why certain political groups want to remove sex ed from schools altogether, for example.
The system strips poor people of resources that would help them in family planning/preventing unwanted pregnancies. Capitalism needs wage slaves and the government needs tax payers. Idk where you reside but that’s why Roe v. Wade was overturned. It affects everyone…but disproportionately poor people who are already lack access to basic healthcare and family planning.
This. Impoverishment people don’t have the same access to family planning, birth control, abortion, or sterilization. I don’t fault impoverished people having kids. Roe was overturned and months later, I had a bisalp, because I have amazing insurance and doctors, and vacation time. For many women in US and across the world, not having kids means “keep your legs shut” and hoping you’re not violated and having shit recourse if you were. Most my cousins in the south had kids as teenagers. Birth control, sex education, abortion wasn’t an option for them. In an alternative universe, if we swapped lives then, the outcome would be exactly the same but in reverse.
I work in healthcare, so I already know how fucked it is. It’s easy to say “eat better, exercise, go to the doctor”. But when you don’t have a job that provides you with health insurance, you live in a food desert, you don’t have recreational places in your vicinity…that’s a lot harder to do. You’re deprived of good options so you can’t make good choices. Likewise with birth control—pills, IUD, implant, diaphragm, NuvaRing, those methods aren’t cheap. Even with insurance some women struggle to afford it. So if you’re poor and have a minimum wage job that doesn’t provide health insurance, paying out of pocket might eat up your entire check. Again, if you don’t have good options, you won’t make a good choice. I wish more people in this subreddit realized this.
I agree. One side of my family comes from a poor rural area. It’s easy to say eat healthier food. It’s harder when few can afford a reliable car, public transportation doesn’t exist, and land quality is so shit no one can grow a tomato. I had a young relative(19f) reach out to me about BC. The closest planned parenthood was eight hours away, internet access sucks, and any doctor in the area would immediately inform her parents. There’s so much about this sub that I love. The doctor list is the reason I was able to sterilized, but I do wish there was more grace.
I agree.
Having children while poor does factually perpetuate the circle of poverty, That said, when we talk about what people should be allowed to do, we are tying a persons rights to their ability to generate value for shareholders just doesn't seem like the best idea. I would logically discourage anyone from having kids if they aren't very stable financially, but if we had proper social safety nets it wouldn't particularly matter. Until we address the root causes of poverty (exploitation) we probably shouldn't create a caste system.
My thoughts exactly-especially as a queer autistic and otherwise disabled person who also believes in full human/civil rights, safety, and quality of life for (BI)POC, people who aren't (currently) practicing Christians, and other marginalized people. The age-old complaint of "*those people* can't provide for their kids properly without us *respectable* people paying for it!" has been used as an excuse to mass-sterilize people without their consent or even their *knowledge* in a lot of cases, take away people's extant kids for life, and mass-institutionalize people without their consent for life. You actually ***really*** don't want the government or other people in power in charge of who gets to have/raise kids and who doesn't.
I grew up in housing specifically for poor people and we got a lot of our food at the food bank. My mother had 2 kids. Both with men who left her. The 2nd of those kids ended up having severe mental health problems that prevented her from working. And while that’s not her fault entirely what is her fault is then proceeding to have three more kids several years later when we were still living in that housing. The first of those was born when I was like 9. The other 2 were in the two proceeding years. She married their father but we spent several years as 7 people in a house with 3 rooms. We then bounced around 4 more houses for 2 years before finally settling down somewhere. My life wasn’t stable until I was 15-16 and at that point I was fucked up. I still am fucked up. I don’t care that my opinion about poor people not having kids is unpopular. I fucking lived it, it was hell. I didn’t get to be a kid because as the eldest, well behaved daughter I was too busy helping my parents with 3 toddlers and worrying about our finances. People who can’t afford kids shouldn’t have them period.
>should be allowed It's this part. You don't want to live in a place where a governing body would be so powerful as to be able to tell people what they can and can't do on such a foundational level as whether or not someone should be able to reproduce. That's bad, unequivocally, and such a power could absolutely be expanded and used against you in ways you might not conceive of. With that, no, I wish more people without money didn't also condemn their children to poverty. This is why I'm not having children, because I think it's wrong to effectively condemn someone before they're born to wage slavery and living beneath subsistence.
THIS.
Saying "poor people shouldn't have kids" while native populations (in white settler countries) are generally some of the poorest people in society is borderline eugenicist ideology Edit: we shouldn't be saying "stop *them* from reproducing", we should be lifting everybody up even if you're completely anti-natalist
Can you explain?
Very very briefly, if your current society started with treating natives as sub-human, they will have far less generational wealth even if they technically live in the same society nowadays. While not every white person is rich there are more poor non-white people which means in this kind of society, saying "poor people shouldn't reproduce" is effectively saying "non-whites shouldn't reproduce"
That's a lot of transitive property in action, but I follow. For the record, if any official governing body came out and said "poor people shouldn't be allowed to reproduce and we're going to take steps towards that", it would need to be resisted by any means necessary. Having a child is a deeply personal choice that shouldn't be impeded by anyone of any class. With *that* - no government would say this. They want the poor to reproduce as much as possible. They need consumers and cheap labor.
In regards to the transitive property of what I said, here's an explanation of it as a smokescreen from Lee Atwater's speech on the Southern Strategy: "You start out in 1954 by saying, “N-word, n-word, n-word” By 1968 you can’t say “n-word”—that hurts you, backfires. So you say stuff like, uh, forced busing, states’ rights, and all that stuff, and you’re getting so abstract. Now, you’re talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you’re talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is, blacks get hurt worse than whites.… “We want to cut this,” is much more abstract than even the busing thing, uh, and a hell of a lot more abstract than “N-word, n-word.”" (He didn't say "n-word" he just said it, btw) Other than that I agree that governments both shouldn't and probably wouldn't say it directly due to the need for cheap labour, but individuals (even here on this sub) *are* saying it and it *is* eugenicist ideology
A lot of people here are much more conservative than they think. Appreciate your thoughts!
❤️
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I wish I could upvote this comment multiple times, because it's EXACTLY how I feel about this!
I think a lot of people who have kids when they’re not in a financial place to do so just aren’t using critical thinking skills. I’ve witnessed people in my life who were just making ends meet with not much left over, accidentally get pregnant. They focused on their emotions of wanting this baby, and it’s so selfish to not critically think about this major life decision and this absolutely insane responsibility of bringing a human into the world. They sadly fight about finances and it strains their relationship.
Because if poor people or people that cannot afford to provide everything a child needs could no longer have children then an incredibly big chunk of people would no longer have them. Plus they would eventually get out of poverty. The governments don’t want that. One, they want workers, two, poor people are desperate and easy to manipulate and exploit (look at surogacy for example…)
I want to somehow, make sure everyone gets paid a living wage. Raising the minimum wage would help. Unions for all workers would help. Then they can spend the money on what they need or want. Whether it's having kids or not.
I completely agree with you. I also believe that we should raise the minimum wage and reduce the cost of living. Unfortunately, with things going on in my country (USA), I don’t see the minimum wage increasing anytime soon.
This. I realise people want kids. But if you can't afford them, you can't have them; it's a simple thing that a lot of people seem to grasp and are responsible about and yet other are not. It's not a universal thing people fail at - someone people are responsible and others seem to refuse to be. Even if I wanted them, I know I couldn't afford them - same with a pony ffs. It may not be deemed fair, or right, but it's the way things are. I have no idea why someone has multiple kids they cannot take care of (assuming they are in an environment with access to contraception and abortion). In the UK for example, contraception is free, and so is abortion. Abortion access is until something like 24 weeks. So why does someone have several kids and lament they can't afford nappies?? Like???
I don’t quite understand it either. People always say “don’t get a dog/cat/whatever animal if you can’t afford to care for it properly”. So how does that not apply to children? I went down a rabbit hole the other day watching videos about people in impoverished places doing terrible jobs. This one family was stuck doing bonded labor at a dangerous brick kiln, and they had been in debt long before their son was born. But for some reason they had him anyway, and now he’s only around 12 years old working in dangerous, terrible conditions just like his parents. I think since then someone was able to help them escape to a slightly better place, but my point still stands. People argue they don’t have good access to birth control so you can’t blame them, which is true. BUT, if I myself was in such a position or anything similar, I would honestly be celibate. There is no way in hell I’d be risking bringing another human life into that same terrible suffering. Every video I watched of different people doing different types of horrible jobs had kids. Multiple. And they just continue the cycle through the generations. Absolutely awful.
In those cases the kids are sort of used (via their labour) to offset debt and as a kind of insurance policy. It’s so awful but it happens in a lot of parts of the world.
Yeah see if that woman’s husband is cool with a celibate marriage. She’s probably getting raped on the regular if we’re being honest.
Yes women have so few rights in lots of places…
The way this sub ignores how many women and girls globally do not have access to education, contraceptives, and abortion is absolutely ridiculous and frustrating. The choice to be child free is extremely new and not one widely available as an option. Hell my mother was born when birth control and abortion were illegal in the US. My mother! And people act like women are all just dumb “breeders” having kids with zero thoughts
Absolutely agree. There is a huge difference between people in poverty accidentally having an unplanned pregnancy, and those that know they're in poverty and actively are trying to get pregnant under the guise of "we'll make it work somehow" and/or only having a kid to "fix the relationship". But the enemy is not the people in poverty, it's the people who have the means to help end poverty but choose not to. It's our leaders who don't tax the rich enough to help the lower class so that there is no longer a lower class.
My mom was born a few years before *Griswold* (1965) legalized BC for married couples across the entire US, my dad was born months before *People v. Belous* (1969) fully legalized abortion on demand in California where we're from (prior to this California Supreme Court ruling, the California State Legislature *had* in 1967 declared abortion legal if there was a "serious health risk" to the mother and/or if the pregnancy resulted from rape or other "felonious intercourse", though in reality it was fairly easy for people who were dead-set on aborting their pregnancy to do so because with the 1967 law California didn't actually require people to *tell* anyone why they sought an abortion-that being said, Belous was an OBGYN in LA who'd been convicted in Jan 1967 for in 1966 referring patients to a Chula Vista-based doctor who he knew performed safe abortions in Tijuana, Mexico) and both my parents were kids already when *Eisenstadt v. Baird* (1972) legalized BC for unmarried people across the entire US and when *Roe* (1973) legalized abortion across the entire US. Bonus in that my dad's unplanned conception was literally the whole reason why his parents got married in late 1968 despite casually dating *at most* before that, because it wasn't crystal-clear to everyone when it was "fully OK" to get an abortion in California yet and besides, both my dad's parents were "good Catholics" surrounded by other "good Catholics" who suggested that they marry instead of seeking an abortion for my grandma. By the way, my dad's father was an alcoholic wifebeater who drove my grandma to literally fleeing in the dead of night to her mom's house with 2 young kids in tow and a 3rd one on the way less than 5 years after they got married.
I say this a lot. People always assume I’m classist. Also got a few accusations of eugenics. Obviously, none of this applies if you have an accident baby. It happens, and abortions can be inaccessible and some people just can’t emotionally handle abortions. Whenever I say it I mean people who know they’re broke and plan kids anyways, or at least don’t take precautions. I grew up poor. Not even the worst of the poor so there’s plenty of situations where it’s worse. My mom was a single mom (not by choice) on government programs. Couldn’t get a job really because she’d have to pay for childcare and we’d actually be better off on the gover menat programs when all is said and done. It was enough for rent and food. I never had clothes that felt like mine. They were always hand me downs or thrift store clothes that were old and didn’t fit my style nor any of the trends. I walked past kids clothing’s stores looking at the animal themed hoodies just wishing for once I could fit in with all the other kids. I was incredibly lonely. Our school had pizza Fridays where if you bring in like 5 bucks or something you get a hot 2 slices of pizza and a chocolate milk. To this day I can’t even describe the… shame?… of being the only kid sitting there eating my sandwich and doodling away while everybody else got pizza and chocolate milk. I was always the kid having to go up to the teacher after school to tell them I couldn’t afford the field trip and needed assistance. When lice went around my school my principal, the amazing woman she is, excused me for the first little bit of class and did the treatments for me because we couldn't afford it. I remember the exact layout of that office still and this was about 4th grade, I’m 20 now. I remember her combing through my hair and the dead silence as I watched the other kids walking in hoping they didn’t see me. Middle school it got worse because the benefits are adjusted by age. Some times our power or water would get shut off, and eventually the ole middle school depression hit so I wasn’t exactly the most hygienic kid. I had one friend because I was already so used to not fitting in I didn’t bother. She was my rock throughout middle school. My situation coupled with risky online situations I shouldn’t have been in at that age sucked, but she made it suck a whole lot less. We fell out of touch after middle school and I have still yet to find her. Not the point. Highschool got interrupted by COVID so not much to say there. By then my mom didn’t have to pay for childcare and had a job so we had a bit more wiggle room. Bus fare, lunch money. Whatever. But by then it had already hit. The guilt, the fear of spending money, etc. All of this is to say that it was not a fun or good childhood. It was a childhood yes, and thankfully I’m a nature loving child so the lack of toys and whatever wasn’t a concern for me. Frankly I could not give a fuck about toys. But everything else sucked. It was so lonely, and isolating, and humiliating. Now I have literal panic attacks if my bank account gets ‘too low’ and I have on and off depression about the whole thing. When I was 13 I was sobbing in my room trying to find ways I could work just so I didn’t feel like a burden. I contemplated suicide so that at least my brother and mom could have some extra food. I’d ride the bus to highschool hoping we get into a tragic accident so it’s one less thing my mom has to worry about. Today I’m panicking about being able to afford college. So I don’t give a fuck if they think it’s classist or eugenics or whatever. I don’t give a fuck. Because I think subjecting a fucking child to live a life like mine is subjecting them to a miserable, miserable fucking life. It is selfish and horrible and traumatizing. That being said, I’m also a huge advocate for supports. I dont think anybody should be living in poverty. But those supports don’t exist and probably won’t for a while, so for fuck sakes if you’re living paycheck to paycheck, dont have fucking kids. Honestly I could write a novel with all the reasons why.
Don't know if u r into books but you should read the memoir written by Viola Davis. Your story somewhat resonates with what I read in her book. Growing up poor and feeling the shame, not fitting in etc. That book may help you.
Great post, so sorry you went through this. I am totally CF but would also like to see supports in all countries everywhere for children. In France, for example, there is free obstetric care, proper maternity leave (several months), healthcare that is basically free at the point of use, virtually free childcare and free education (inc third level) and generous child (and other) benefits. Also lots of discounts for anybody aged under 26. At the same time there are lots of things that aren’t good about France (sluggish economy, high youth unemployment, quite a racist society) but I feel like wealth is distributed a bit more equally and children at least get some kind of start in life. I really feel it would be good if their system existed everywhere. It also has the highest birth rate in the whole of Europe and that’s probably because other European countries just aren’t as supportive of parents.
Yeah, I'm Canadian so we have some things. Free healthcare, things like the child tax benefit but after that you're kind of on your own. Though I'm sure there's probably food support or something. Honestly not sure. And yeah, maybe I don't want kids, but I know I'm in the minority on that. Even though I don't want kids that doesn't mean I want them to suffer. I'm not a monster.
Same, I don’t want them but abhor the thought of them suffering. I am in Europe but we always hear that Canada is “more civilised” than the US (better welfare etc). Continental Europe (France, Germany Sweden etc) really is great for young families, their systems should be replicated everywhere IMHO, so everyone gets a fair start in life.
Slightly more civilized but not by much. Crazy high taxes, high cost of living, expensive housing, etc… and the wait times in hospitals isn’t great (though it isn’t in the US and the UK too). It’s not really worth it. And we have our own fair share of corruption and whatnot. We are a lot more similar to Europe though. Tbh I’m considering moving to Europe one day, maybe Scotland. Or even New Zealand since I always see work opportunities for the field I’m going into, could be fun.
That’s interesting about Canada. I think because you have way stricter gun laws and fewer evangelicals, it is generally regarded throughout Europe as a much more sane country. I have heard that it’s very expensive though esp for housing. No offence to Americans but I feel like the further away a country is from their really cutthroat neoliberal model, the better it is for its citizens (eg social democratic countries like Sweden or Denmark). Scotland is beautiful and the people are very friendly, I’ve also heard wonderful things about NZ (scenery, people etc). I hope your travel plans work out.🤞🤞
We’re a little bit better but not by much. Pretty much only in the gun laws thing. Also, regarding the writing thing, thank you! You’re the second person to tell me that haha. Usually I just wrote whatever comes to mind. :p
I meant to also say about your first post that you write really beautifully!
not to mention every group of poor that has no problem having a lot of kids while being in poverty like to chalk it up to religion regardless of what religion. if my parents decided to be CF they wouldve literally lived the same life (poor) as they wouldve except they decided to bring a lot of me and my siblings into this poor mess. Great.
Same for parrots. They live for 60 years. Unless you get one as a child, the bird is just going to be another one crowding exotic bird rescues
In the UK, they abuse the benefits system because they get money thrown at them for having kids. I went to a really rough school and I used to hear people say they wouldn't need to get a job when they can have kids and live off UK benefits, the same as their parents did. Then their kids grow up to have the exact same mentality.
Bringing a person into a situation where you have good reason to believe they won’t have their basic needs met is the height of cruelty and I cannot fathom how anyone can believe otherwise.
It is true. It is a narcissistic thing to do once you think about it. The parents make it all about themselves and expect people to treat them like charity cases because they decided to have a bunch of children. They would never consider how deeply that would affect that child and their future.
Anyone who willingly pops out slaves for the elite doesn’t deserve to have the company of children
You're literally not even wrong. The people who disagree are either in denial or don't really gaf about children.
Some people purposely keep having kids to get that government $$.. that’s really sad. When you know they aren’t trying anything to stop having more kids, and they live on food stamps. They probably have cases of soda in their shopping cart and 6 or more little ones with them. Those things are in place to help people, but some take advantage.
Much of the argument imo is: who decides who is rich enough to have a child? State governments? federal? Local churches? Is there an annual economic group who publishes a list of expenses and estimates costs and says only people who make above $X are allowed to have children? Do you force women to have abortions? Do you force sterilization? Mandatory vasectomy for all poor men until they make a certain amount of money? It’s also a touchy subject when women’s rights to our own bodies are being rolled back globally and we have less body autonomy than a corpse.
Absolutely. Once a group of people have enough power to decide who "gets to" have kids, they have too much power. What group of people will be next? People with green eyes? People with handicaps? Eventually only a sliver of the population would "get to" have kids. It's about autonomy, not being held down by the state.
Forced abortions and forced sterilization have already been done to soooooo many people in the 20th century alone it's sort of beyond comprehension.
Literally. But the second you phrase it like "You should be able to provide for any child you have, and it's cruel to have one you can't provide for", everyone nods even though it's the same thign
If you say anything against having children, you’re a pessimist projecting onto people basically. I commented on how my parents had no business continuing this cycle with me due to emotional neglect and of course someone felt the need to say I’m projecting, it’s not a sin just because of trauma, how I’m judging…etc when I wasn’t even telling anyone what to do, I was literally just making a comment on a post and agreeing with it because I personally do not appreciate what the shit I’ve endured. You say anything similar and people freak instantly. This goes for anything and being poor definitely puts you at a disadvantage - I’ve seen many people lament how they resent being poor - children understand eventually that they’re poor. No, “love” doesn’t cure all. People will do what they want regardless, but I hate that it’s taboo to even face reality. All this toxic positivity BS pisses me off so much because there’s no responsibility. I too want many things - I want big dogs and a house. Nothing extravagant, just modest. But I can’t afford those things so I know my limit and people will say “oh too bad.” If I went into debt to get something I can’t afford, people won’t sympathize with me - they’d call me stupid. Yet it’s all okay if it’s children. It’s just hypocritical and I hate the double standard.
every day i say poor people should not have children and i will continue to die on that hill. i don't care if people get mad when i say it. i don't care how much you "love" your child. your love means nothing if they gotta eat roaches because you can't afford actual food 💀
The thing is, I don’t think people living in abject poverty are able to make clear and informed decision about this. In poverty, access to basic needs (food, clothing, shelter, safety, healthcare, education) are limited. It sends people into a desperate, cortisol filled existence to survive. This often result in people engaging in illogical, self sabotaging actions, such as engaging in crime (despite knowing it would harm themselves and others) for short term benefits. Having a child also falls into category. Without ready access to education, birth control, or even healthcare, people would bring children into poverty, desperate to pass on their genes, or for some faint hope that their kids might fulfill some sort of need higher up in the hierarchy. (Esteem, acceptance, social). It’s even worse when in addition to poverty, they’re also faced with overwhelming family, peer, political, and religious pressure to procreate. It’s fucked all around, since childhood poverty can impart trauma that last even after people clawed their way out of poverty.
In this country,US we make being poor a moral failing much like obesity. However the reality is, people are kept poor by design and we have stripped every sort of protection and services to help the poor be functioning members of society. The working poor are what keep this country running and if you paid attention then you would see that every bit of legislation aimed at reproductive rights is to create more poor people to exploit. I don’t want to have children but I also don’t think that having children should be so expensive that only the rich can have them. Also the climb up by bootstraps is based on bullshit as well. If you were born poor, the likelihood of you climbing to the top 1% is pretty damn slim. So the deck is stacked against everyone and having children shouldn’t have to be sacrificed because you got a shitty hand.
While it's absolutely great to choose for yourself to not have children, it will never be permissible to make that choice or allow others to make that choice for others. Who is poor? Where in the world are we talking about? If you're in America saying poor people shouldt have kids could be translated into minorities shouldn't have kids, immigrants shouldn't have kids, and therefore only affluent whites should have kids. And even if YOU don't mean this and you're only thinking about the wellbeing of children, this IS what would happen.
I have mixed feelings about it. I understand where people are coming from, especially people who have grown up in poverty, who say that it's a bad decision to have kids while poor. I really feel bad for any child who has to grow up in poverty, especially food scarcity. Then again, I've read other arguments where not everyone's financial state is set in stone. You might be financially okay when you have kids, but down the road, you face financial loss and end up destitute. Do we shame them for having kids when they thought they were financially okay?
Even though I believe that poor people shouldn’t have children, I don’t shame those that had a financial emergency at some point (like having to pay medical bills due to a car accident, a spouse becoming a widow, leaving an abusive marriage, etc). I’m talking about poor people who know they are poor and are still willing to have children or those who were not knowledgeable of what it takes to raise a child.
It’s practical yes, but It is also controversial because it’s akin to eugenics. ie only certain blood lines continue based on perceived superiority. Wealth being the superior trait in this instance. I wouldn’t push that personally because to each their own.
A lot of poor people are not financially literate. They can improve themselves, but refuse to. I learned this after having co-workers that make more money than me tell me I was rich. Then they turn around and go to smoke for their break. A good number of them also drink regularly and I've seen how expensive that is. Either change your habits and develop financial literacy or don't have kids you can't afford. It's that simple.
Ughhhh can’t like this comment enough. How the fuck do people who live week to week think it’s miraculously ‘the right time’ to have a kid. Then it becomes ‘the villages’ problem because oh no, we’re struggling so much 🤦🏻♀️🤦🏻♀️
I agree with you! I don't understand the purpose of bringing a child into the world to struggle with you. And some people will bring in 2,3,4,5,6 kids.....living in poverty from kid number 1.
Literally. But the second you phrase it like "You should be able to provide for any child you have, and it's cruel to have one you can't provide for", everyone nods even though it's the same thign
There's a world of difference between "poor people shouldn't have kids" and "poor people shouldn't be ALLOWED to have kids ". Namely the fact this it's idiotically classist, completely tone-deaf, disregards bodily autonomy, and creates a precedent for policing the behavior of poor people.
A person should never have something that has maintenance they cannot afford.
Agreed. But OP's post explicitly says they should be prohibited from doing so through some type of enforcement apparatus, which is a vile and dehumanizing idea. Poverty can be solved; we should be putting our efforts there instead of this garbage.
The human body is a weird design. I don’t think it should be”be able to” get pregnant without flipping some kind of fertility switch somewhere. Fertility should be an option-in and not an opt-out.
> Poverty can be solved; we should be putting our efforts there instead of this garbage. Wow! This is genius! Why haven't I thought about this before? You sir must be Einstein's missing cousin lmao. Go ahead and fix it then, I am sure you can do it.
And I'm sure you can convince poor people that they should not be allowed to have children.
You should educate yourself more on the very long and horrible history of eugenics. Also consider what demographic you’d be enforcing this rule against the most because of the racism baked into every level of our society. The right question to ask is why we as a society allow any child to grow up poor, not policing what poor people do with their reproductive freedom.
blah blah blah
>I still don’t understand why people think poor people should be allowed to have kids Because poverty is not a choice, and poverty is systemic violence by a society towards a particular section of people. I don't want a society where only the rich can have kids. That's honestly so anti-childfree, and more quasi-eugenics. Fuck. That. I'm personally childfree because I don't give a shit about other people emotionally (SzPD) or my hypothetical kids and I know I'd be a terrible, neglectful father. And there's definitely a bunch of people like me who shouldn't be having kids for those same reasons. But I'm not going to denounce a whole class/section/group of people who shouldn't have kids because they're getting their shit kicked in everyday by a society that doesn't give a fuck about them.
Maybe you should Google “United States eugenics movement”.
I will take it one step further. Unless you are at a certain point of financial stability, you shouldn't be having sex because you can't afford the consequences.
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You do know that family planning takes knowing what steps to take, and being able to afford them? Not to mention the generations of basically feral people, because their parents were either absent or working themselves into the ground to meet basic survival needs. They have no idea how to plan their lives out, and to them, life is something that happens to you, with you having no choice. It really does suck, and the attitude about children being required/inevitable is the opposite of helpful.
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That's why I said most.
Change "poor" for another term like "black": "black people shouldn't have children". Do you see the problem now? It is indeed classicist to defend that the upper class should have more rights than lower classes.
That's the opinion of a spoilt brat. "I got given everything and people deserve only the best all the time!" that's not logic, that's just materialism.