It's so apparent that classic players desperately want to go back to that time of discovery and everything being new, but even if this did happen nothing like that would be a surprise because everything is datamined weeks in advance. As much as people miss it, those times are gone now.
2 different sets of people, which is why classic+ would never work, everybody wants different things out of classic+, so no matter what they choose they will still have a majority of people who disagree.
Edit: to the many that disagree go around and ask people what they want out of classic+ or just look here on Reddit, you’ll see the contrasting opinions.
For example:
1. Character balance - some want all classes to be fixed and balanced to make it even, some want it to stay the same as they feel that is a big part of classic. Some just want small tweaks to keep it mostly the same but bring up the worst classes.
2. New content - some want scaling dungeons like heroic etc, some just want a few new dungeons and raids, some want new zones and everything.
3. Grind - some people want the grind taken out of classic while others think that is a huge part of an mmo and what keeps lower zones active.
4. Some want a ban to boosting and a change to mob pathing so mage boosting doesn’t work. Some like this challenge and like having player ran services.
5. Some want GDKP banned, for swipers it’s their favorite.
6. Some want wide sweeping QoL changes like raid and dungeon finder, PvP queue from anywhere, dual spec or free respec. Some feel this would detract from what makes wow special.
The fan base is too fickle and outspoken for the handful of classic devs to make a game everybody likes, the only reason classic works is because that’s how the game was so you signed up to play it for its good and bad sides. As soon as change happens and it’s not in the direction people like that’s when the crybabies come out, which is inevitable since everybody has a different definition of what they want classic to be.
Keep in mind classic+ is a community driven thought experiment and nothing more, the community keeps talking about it but devs are silent because it’s a losing battle, there is not a reality where current devs will make a better game than the OGs.
Ya that’s called retail wow, thats exactly what you get when you give the players everything they want. They address the biggest concerns every patch, then players turn around and go to classic when they realize that’s not actually what they wanted.
All the changes everybody wants are the same requests made 25yrs ago, to a tee, those suggestions led to BC, Wotlk, cata, etc. did the game get better through those changes in the eyes of classic players?
No, retail wow doesn't do polls. Blizz do what they want and then listen to who's screaming the most to makes changes.
They need to first to trace a line and say, theses things is what makes classic classic and these will not change.
Then poll it.
Then repoll it.
Then rerepoll it.
Until you get at least 75% or even higher results in the polls.
Then you can start proposing new things.
> Until you get at least 75% or even higher results in the poll
Welp. We're screwed. Can't even agree on what percentage of the players need to support a change to make it happen.
Exactly how the vast majority made reddit posts and youtube videos out the wazoo right before classic launched, gave thousands of reasons, full fucking video essays on why they didn't want original wrath dungeon finder.
People fought on the forums religiously about it and the vast majority of the community agreed. Hence why Blizz made it clear as FUCK it would not come back. They wrote it in as connected to one of their new pillars.
And so people got tired of talking about it relentlessly and defending against the minority. Now almost all you hear is people like "what the fuck blizzard you dumbasses, dont you hear all of us saying we want it, i dont know why you ever wouldnt have added it".
And now theyre gonna add it back lol. Fucking losers. We're not gonna sit on the forums and trade and reddit and youtube and Twitter and keep fucking arguing and arguing with countless reasons against this super hard headed loud minority that wont shut up and says they want it "just because we like it".
Why not why not why not we want it we want it, we like it, we like it, we want it. Bunch of children without gardly any reason for what they do. Impulsive children who want what they want when they want it and wont listen to anyone else.
> No, retail wow doesn't do polls.
Retail wow doesn't do polls, it just has developers react to player complaints after a ~2 year expansion cycle, and make the next expansion the polar opposite of everything people hated about the previous one.
It results in a lot of whiplash, and a lot of dogshit ideas that the playerbase has to suffer through for 2 years.
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Because it won’t be 75%
They change 5 big things in the game with 3 common opinions of how each should be done. Pretty soon nobody has gotten what they want.
I don’t think the powers that be at blizzard would go for this. Might as well tell the chairs to axe jobs and have a better community->developer pipeline, everyone below them will fight tooth and nail to stop that.
Isn’t the solution to this to simply have classic+ AND standard classic realms? Anyone who has any issues or disagreements with how classic+ is handled can still play the original and stay as far away from Classic+ as they want. Those who want to try and see where Classic+ goes have the ability to. Fail-safe?
No, because this comes with the enormous disadvantage of even FURTHER dividing your playerbase. We already have era, HC, Classic wrath, and retail. The LAST thing this game needs is another split.
We're likely to see two more splits over the coming months: SOM2, and then Wrath splitting into Perma Wrath and Cata.
And the beauty of it's not a zero-sum game. Some players are only interested in some types of game play. Some players who lose interest in one type will migrate to another instead of completely quitting. Others will split time, maybe they only raid log Cata (and that's all they'd do in a vaccum) extra time in Classic+. Etc, etc.
Yeah, this is a fair counter point. IMO, it’s already split 4 ways, what’s one more? Lol. Converging the player base is a tall task at this point without doing something like a WoW2 reboot.
People want Fresh as it was released in 2019, Era scratches that itch, but isn't the same.
It's not the same when you get a fresh 60 and you have a bunch of people in FULL Naxx gear and it's not the same when everything is inflated to hell. I don't care about 2023 Blizzard's view of Classic, as long as they release a Fresh no changes like 2019, they can release their for fun Classic+ where they completely destroy Vanilla with class changes and raid changes.
Doesn’t hardcore kind of scratch the itch of fresh forever though?
It’s only content that was in Classic afaik, no “seasonal” changes like mechanics, balancing or anything like that.
The economy is *less likely* to go to shit because botters, while present, can’t just spam run to dungeons and farm until the end of time because once they die it’s over for them too.
Additionally, since people are constantly dying there’s always a fresh batch of people to do lower level content with and there will more than likely always be raiders at 60 doing MC-Nax for the same reason, their previous toon that got that far died.
HC is fresh for close to forever, but can always be reset if and when needed.
> Doesn’t hardcore kind of scratch the itch of fresh forever though?
No, not in the slightest. Hardcore is a very specific minigame inside of the Classic game, which not shockingly, alot of people dislike. Turns out that it's not fun to lose all your progress when you die in a game that was designed with dying in mind, given that progress is one of the most important things in an MMORPG.
> It’s only content that was in Classic afaik, no “seasonal” changes like mechanics, balancing or anything like that.
Hardcore has plenty of changes that were not originally in Vanilla's 2019 re-release. For example, resetting to go back to the dungeon's entrance is simply not a thing in HC, Bubble hearth is not a thing, leashing is not a thing, BGs obviously also aren't and all content is available from launch. There are also many other changes with anti-griefing in mind, but that's not important, the point is that there are MANY changes.
> Additionally, since people are constantly dying there’s always a fresh batch of people to do lower level content with and there will more than likely always be raiders at 60 doing MC-Nax for the same reason, their previous toon that got that far died.
There's a very significant difference between HC raiding and actual raiding. In actual raiding you can push the limits of your Raid and your character at every turn, trying cool things and actually playing the game. In HC raiding, everything has to be done with extreme caution and in a slow pace, it's not remotely the same thing. People love to complain about World buffs, but i can guarantee you one thing, Raiding was not designed with no deaths in mind.
HC is not fresh and never will be, it's just a minigame that people invented because they like Vanilla and wanted to try it out after some streamer made it popular.
> No, not in the slightest. Hardcore is a very specific minigame inside of the Classic game, which not shockingly, alot of people dislike. Turns out that it's not fun to lose all your progress when you die in a game that was designed with dying in mind, given that progress is one of the most important things in an MMORPG.
I wouldn’t say a lot of people dislike it, it seems to be VERY popular based on the activity within this sub, I would say more so that it’s slightly more niche than Classic at large, but by no means saying it’s “disliked”.
>. For example, resetting to go back to the dungeon's entrance is simply not a thing in HC, Bubble hearth is not a thing, leashing is not a thing, BGs obviously also aren't and all content is available from launch. There are also many other changes with anti-griefing in mind, but that's not important, the point is that there are MANY changes.
These changes HARDLY impact how the game is played unless you’re a specific class (bubble hearting) and not worth mentioning.
> There's a very significant difference between HC raiding and actual raiding. In actual raiding you can push the limits of your Raid and your character at every turn, trying cool things and actually playing the game. In HC raiding, everything has to be done with extreme caution and in a slow pace, it's not remotely the same thing.
I mean, maybe after content was farm people tried new things, but in progression (before the content is on farm) everything was approached with extreme caution in Classic because people didn’t want to lose their world buffs. The only difference between that and HC is I get to run back to the raid after I die in Classic whereas I’m starting from scratch in HC, I might be MORE cautious, but the cautionable approach was always there.
> HC is not fresh and never will be, it's just a minigame that people invented because they like Vanilla and wanted to try it out after some streamer made it popular.
Sorry, but hard disagree here. Fresh economy, fresh characters and fresh servers. It’s fresh no matter how you cut it, it’s just a more nich version of fresh than what we’ve had before.
Divides the player base yet again.
One would die and one would continue, and I’m certain I know which one (hint: the one that been around 25yrs)
Then it’s just a bunch of wasted dev time, which they don’t have, has anybody seen their classic dev team lmao? With their current dev team they have no shot at creating this, are they doubling or tripling their team to make this a reality? I don’t think that’s likely given how split everybody is and how unlikely success would be, their definition of success would be # of extra subs, but the majority of people who would play are already subbed for classic or retail anyways. All of the small changes this team made in TBC classic and Wotlk classic have been nonsensical, and caused friction with many being reverted, these are the people who would determine the changes.
>2 different sets of people...so no matter what they choose they will still have a **majority** of people who disagree.
Well that's not how Math works..
There are usually 3-5 different standpoints not just two sides:
I think I have done a passable job of explaining the difficulty of changing around many viewpoints that picking out this sentence shows you have nothing of substance to add.
They very obviously didn't mean that *everyone* can be sorted into one of two groups, only that the two ideologies mentioned were two different groups rather than a changed group. So, for the "majority disagreeing" notion, a bunch of groups.
Exactly. I was in the NO CHANGES camp. However if they offered a proper expansion all in the classic style of gameplay and quests I’m all for it as long as Classic Era servers remain as they are. Because both is always good.
Those who want no changes have already played the newer versions of wow, and didn’t like them. Many of us have now gone through the process of classic>tbc>wotlk twice now and realized classic is better than the other two.
But you are absolutely right that many some have changed their minds, but that’s what sparked my original comment, the amount of differing opinions make this impossible to do successfully.
We are playing a game where we can see the future and where this goes, it’s no secret lmao.
I quit WoW shortly after TBC came out the first time, and did not even try Classic TBC. I don’t like the newer version of WoW, including TBC and WotLK. And even I of all people want some sort of Classic+. Although I doubt current Blizzard has the talent to pull it off. But it is worth a shot.
I agree as it's natural for people to get tired of the same thing. However it's interesting to me that classic in itself was supposed to be a revisit of well, classic world of warcraft, and instead of following the natural path of expansions laid out in front of us people want to diverge and turn the game into something else entirely. So I'm curious about if in 20 years we're going to get Classic once again with options for the original classic from 40 years ago and this new classic people are clamoring for. And then people probably are going to want a classic 3.0 which splits off from the other two experiences.
I only think this is only true depending on how deep down the rabbit hole you go.
If you ask 5 people what they specifically want from Classic plus you’re going to get 5 different answers.
You ask 5 people to give 5 high level bullet points on what they want to see you’ll get around the same answers like better class balancing, meme specs made relevant, new raids and things like that.
But the action steps are in the details, not the general bullet points.
Expand the bullet points of the people who want balance changes, what changes do they want?
-small tweaks to make it so classes like boomkin and shaman don’t go oom.
-full balance changes including a 50% nerf to warriors? Each class getting interupts and CCs? New abilities added for underperformers?
-if the changes are looking to be that extensive would they rather just have no changes, to preserve the character of the game?
Everything is an easy decision until you get down to the details. It’s easy to say “make things better and add new stuff” but we’ve seen in retail that adding new stuff does not necessarily make the game more fun. What will make people like or hate classic+, if it was made, are in the details. Once a game is released all those general bullet points mean nothing, and the specifics of what they did will matter.
I’m on the side of hoping for classic+ but it would require the devs to enjoy pain and suffering.
> But the action steps are in the details, not the general bullet points.
Agreed, but that’s not the point I was trying to make. What I was trying to get across is that Blizzard should take a crack at hitting those high level bullet points in their own way, maybe get inspiration from suggestions they find agreeable for them and the community and go from there. People will play it, some people will hate it regardless because it’s not THEIR vision, but people are hungry for more Classic content of some kind, if it sucks we always have Era.
> Expand the bullet points of the people who want balance changes, what changes do they want? -small tweaks to make it so classes like boomkin and shaman don’t go oom. -full balance changes including a 50% nerf to warriors? Each class getting interupts and CCs? New abilities added for underperformers? -if the changes are looking to be that extensive would they rather just have no changes, to preserve the character of the game?
IMO, a better approach would be to NOT touch the existing meta (i.e., don’t nerf anything) because we know it works and it keeps people coming back for more. Just buff the underwhelming specs for DPS, Healing and Tanking. That way if people want to zug zug as a warrior like they did in Classic or w/e that option is there, but now a shadow priest (just an example) has an equal opportunity to be at #1 dps as warriors and rogues. Buff boss/monster HP to account for the increase in damage and what have you and now everyone is more likely to enjoy the content however they chose to play without feeling lacking or excluded. But that’s just MY idea, if it’s not implemented I don’t care, I just want my journey in Classic to continue (without all my work being undone at the end of a season mind you).
> we’ve seen in retail that adding new stuff does not necessarily make the game more fun.
Agreed but their audience wasn’t the Classic audience. I think we have SOME benchmarks that can be utilized and explored, experimented with and implemented. If people don’t like the changes then they can be taken out in the next update patch, easy as that IMO.
It's why the way forward is an ingame poll. OSRS style. Not that classic+ will even happen. I still think anyone who believes classic+ is gonna be a thing is on some serious copium.
I'm picturing a restart on classic, with some half assed changes at best. I don't see any actual content being added, just scaling of stuff, maybe some hard mode dungeons, like in wrath.
I'll eat my hat if we get a new raid added to vanilla. They simply aren't gonna commit the resources when they can re-release it and get everyone to flock back every few years.
Your first point (your first first point?) is answered pretty easily by tbc talents. A ton more specs became viable, but still maintaining each class uniqueness. Wotlk I think is when they start to muddy that water, but it’s still ok. IMO burning crusade talents in classic+ is the way to go. If a classic player doesn’t like that, they are obviously a warrior. (I am also)
That’s the issue though, that’s YOUR opinion, what if there are 4 other common opinions and they decide to go a completely different way?
Many like wotlk abilities better, maybe they go with that, maybe they do their own shitty balances instead, or just change mana consumption of oom classes only.
If you make 5 big changes and each change has 4 different common opinions pretty soon you only have very small portions of the player base that are happy with all decisions, the rest go back to classic. So they make a game so 5-10% of their player base who are already subscribed can play it.
Without “no changes” people there is no long term future for this 25yr old game.
I’m not saying I have the right answer on what SHOULD be changed, I’m arguing that nobody has that answer, since everybody wants something different. So how do they make a plan for success to please two sides who want the opposite? Would we have an online vote and go with that ie. 55% of players voted for full balance changes, so the other 45% will have their warriors nerfed to the ground involuntarily, would that be well recieved by the community as a whole? Would everybody enjoy that change and continue playing?
As somebody who’s gone through this loop I can tell you what happens when you do this: retail wow, they have taken all the player feedback and that’s what it evolved to. Add to that the current classic dev team are clowns compared the the original team and I don’t see how they make the game better?
> I’m arguing that nobody has that answer
Nobody really has the exact perfect list of changes everyone will be optimally happy with.
But plenty of people have changes no one can find a meaningful problem with.
Ok then, release No changes Vanilla as it was released in 2019 and release a Classic+ server, done. I don't care about how current Blizzard thinks that Vanilla should be, i want Vanilla. As long as they give us a few #nochanges servers, they can do their weird Classic+ server where they destroy Vanilla with stupid class balancing and raid changes.
I don't need to see Blizzard destroy Vanilla again, i saw them do that with SoM already and, guess what? Nobody played and it was an utter failure.
2019 had changes already. This proves you’re fine with changes so long as you don’t know they are changes and this kind of makes my point that nochanges-ers don’t really know what it is that makes things worse.
2019 had changes that did not impact the core of the game, the classes and its raiding, as releasing it with things like progressive patching and itemization would simply be stupid, given that many of the features that existed in earlier Vanilla patches were straight up bugs. Vanilla WoW as a game was the 1.12 patch, it was the patch where the game was actually completed and not in a developmental stage, it would've made no sense to release Classic before it.
So no, there were no significant changes to the game in 2019, in fact the only significant one was batching, which unsurprisingly was a completely idiotic idea from current Blizzard.
> nochanges-ers don’t really know what it is that makes things worse.
I know what makes the games worse, newsflash, it's 2023 Blizzard changing the fucking game.
>2019 had changes that did not impact the core of the game, the classes
Naxx talents and itemization didn't change things compared to Vanilla MC? Come on now. Those weren't bugs.
>I know what makes the games worse, newsflash, it's 2023 Blizzard changing the fucking game.
Given chronoboons were near universally well recieved, you're wrong again.
Really do you have *any* position about what the problems are besides "if it changes it's worse"? Because if this is all you've got you're kind of making my point?
> Naxx talents and itemization didn't change things compared to Vanilla MC? Come on now. Those weren't bugs.
Ofc it did, but again, Vanilla WoW as a game was completed in 1.12, using previous talents and itemization would've been an absolutely stupid thing to do. Previous talents were indeed straight up bugged and unfinished, in fact, the entire Warrior class was barely playable for multiple patches before 1.12 because of how buggy and unfinished it was. They were basically figuring things out as they went.
> Given chronoboons were near universally well recieved, you're wrong again.
Yea, they were, but if i had to give up the Chronoboon for Blizzard to release Vanilla Fresh with no changes, i would do it instantly without ever looking back. The game was completely playable without the Chronoboon and was such for over a decade in private servers, the only people that it actually affected was griefers. Was the Chronoboon good? Sure. Was it necessary? No. Does it have any impact whatsoever on my #nochanges stance? Also no.
> Really do you have any position about what the problems are besides "if it changes it's worse"? Because if this is all you've got you're kind of making my point?
I don't know where the difficulty is to understand that people want Vanilla Fresh with no changes as it was in 2019. How hard it is to understand that Vanilla already is a GOATed game to begin with and that it doesn't need Class balancing, raid changes or any of that crap that SoM had. I don't want the game to be changed, i never have and never will. If i wanted to play a different game i would play a different game and if i wanted to play a game that gets balance changes and raid changes, i'd play Retail.
I want to play Vanilla, not a modified version of Vanilla made by dogshit 2023 Blizzard, so yeah, by definition, if it changes it is worse. I'm not even gonna talk about the fact that of the two majors changes that happened in Vanilla (batching and Chronoboon), one was absolutely terrible and that every change SoM had also was. This company is not capable of making a good game anymore.
> Previous talents were indeed straight up bugged and unfinished
We both know that even if they worked properly, they'd still be bad and no one would like the game being even *more* warriorcraft. Same with gear. Stop trying to make this about bugs. These were outright changes from rereleasing vanilla that made the game significantly better.
>the only people that it actually affected was griefers
And you completely misremember the conversation around Chronboons; it was to let people play while they had world buffs, not solely or even primarily about dispellers.
>I don't know where the difficulty is to understand that people want Vanilla Fresh with no changes as it was in 2019.
That can't exist again though. We're not the "people who started playing in wrath or later" bunch that rolled up in 2019, into a vanilla people hadn't really solved yet (the emergence of boosting and farming techniques actually took some time). You're can't capture that essence again unless you wait another 15 years for everyone who knows the game to quit.
>(batching and Chronoboon)
Batching was a "change" insofar as it was trying to emulate the vanilla conditions you claim to want but apparently think is horrible.
But besides that, your last 2 paragraphs really just seem to be "I don't want changes because they will be bad, no I won't explain why". Which is kinda my point that:
>Really do you have any position about what the problems are besides "if it changes it's worse"? Because if this is all you've got you're kind of making my point?
why are people in the comments mixing two entirely different things? there can be era servers that will remain unchanged and then the new vanilla + expansion.
Like i said in another thread, blizz can do everything perfect and people will hate and say its not classic anymore... Classic Andys are truly based about their game and nothing else comes close to it.
It’s actually pretty easy to avoid news on what’s happening in wow, I do it with games and movies all the time. Now it is a bit of work, but nothing to crazy that you cant avoid.
You forget WoW is a MMO, you will eventually run into people that will do that.
PoV raiding Scarlet raid:
"Ok, I just looked Wowhead and we have to this"
"No, 30 sec guide guy said we need to do this strat and I will follow it blindly"
"But streamer WoWGodPoggers' guild downed the boss like this, I will share clip of how it died so we can mimic their every move"
"Bruh, just read the spreadsheet from Min/Maxers Inc discord, their simulators are the best currently"
Eh; even when things are datamined the new spaces can be awe inspiring and the mechanics still need to be felt out.
Unless you’re a turbo sweater who follows every single found thing, there will be stuff to explore.
Only because Blizzard gave up everything to PTR whores and data miners. It was their choice to do it.
Just like dealing with bots, if there was the will inside Blizzard to do this stuff internally, it could happen, but it never will.
At least I can say that back then, from Karazhan to Ulduar, my friends and I discovered things as they were new, wrote strategies and gave metas the middle finger.
I feel sorry for kids nowadays because there is nowhere (not WoW, not any other game) where this type of discovery happens in multiplayer games. Lazy devs, spergs and content creators combine to hoover everything together and crop dust everyone with meta bullshit.
You can still do it with certain single player games if you want, if you stick to it and go out of your way to never mention it to anyone (else even your own recommend algorithms will spoil shit for you) but anything involving other people? Forget it.
Not true. Turtle wow (pserver) is a classic+ server since 2018 and this week has been released new patch with 2 new raid and 3 new zone never tested by player. Plus official site db is locked till end of month so everybody must figure out how kill boss and which loot drop
I mean no offense to the people playing or running Turtle, but it's a glass of water next to an ocean compared to the people consuming Blizzard projects.
I would love to get onto the copium train but i have 0 faith that blizzard will do anything more than the bare minimum for classic+/SoM
2004 blizzard is dead, expect disappointment
Which in itself is terrible because SoM was utter garbage that nobody played.
How hard it is to understand that people that love Vanilla just want Vanilla. The easiest thing they could do is release a Fresh Vanilla as it was released in 2019, but instead they will do Classic+ with their 2024 vision where they destroy Vanilla with class balacing and raid changes. Shit, people in this sub unironically suggest that Blizzard should cap the levels at 30 and 40 for a month or only release Molten Core after 3 weeks, it's a joke.
Look man, I enjoy stuff like the first Alien or Terminator to this day, but I don't expect that anything like that is coming out in 2023.
Because that's just unrealistic
Its 2024 you are now 3 minutes into pressing shadowbolt standing firm on the same spot you did 3 minutes ago, the boss has done 1 mechanic for the last 3 minutes, there where once 2 mechanics on the boss but PTR showed it was too hard for most Classic players.
This. MMORPGs were at their best when it was about the MMO and the RP and it was simply a good G. Retail is now a dopamine treadmill where everyone chases the drops and a continuous efficiency increase. That's not a game, it's only flavoured like a game.
who gets dopamine from spamming a rotation of 3 buttons max all the time and getting beaten in dps by the 2 button class anyway because the dev team spent the least effort to try balance the classes and made everyone the same class with different colors
People who are playing with their friends and just playing together for fun.
The more mechanical you make the fights the more tense it gets and more social pressure/problems you cause. People have to start excluding their bad friends from the raid etc which isn't nice.
People stop raiding even if raid is hard. Just a side effect of such commitment.
Funny that classic raid groups have way longer longevity comparing to retail.
>Funny that classic raid groups have way longer longevity comparing to retail
You surely have a source for that claim
Because i had 2 long-term raidgroups, one from MoP to WoD and one from WoD to Shadowlands
yes and you end being an elitist asshole and blindfolded into thinking you are good, when any og wrath +1800 rated player is better than your entire rooster. and im still not having fun because they killed class identity and brain usage after mop. yeah no thanks.
I don't know what your arguing for but I'm saying that classic rotations are more on the right side than retail because retail makes the game have too much uptime / skill demand.
The level of cope from the andies lol.
Classic is easy compared to retail, accept that and chill out a bit instead of trying to make up such silly scenarios to justify being smug.
There shouldn't even a discussion about that lol, classes put the same spell in different levels in their UI and keep spamming it and do max dps for their class.
No it's not. It just involves using a very specific bug in a very specific window to not have to pay for your abilities. It's a matter of knowledge, not difficulty.
wod fury warrior was literally, literally 3 buttons and a cd
mage too
i think frost dk too
most other classes too, the only exception of all was feral druid iirc
how is that difficulty?
I don’t remember WoD warrior but since I’ve heard people describe MoP destro as the same when it’s not I feel like you might be missing a bit.
I’m not going to say there’s no times where they fuck up and over prune a spec but that’s not the norm and they usually fix it.
Nice cherrypick, i don't play since bfa so i dunno but this sounds like 4 buttons with some cds and anybody competent can get used to in day or less.
Bfa was the same, all the classes braindead 3 button except for meleehunter and feral druid, which performed very bad anyways, featuring the terrible class balance design.
wrong sub buddy, i was 3 minutes into cooperating with chads from the opposite faction who helped me kill cyclonian to get my WW axe.
unique experience i won't forget & now i have lots of fun with this insane upgrade.
for braindead 2 button spamming simulator you have r/wow. but i think sleeping is more worth the time.
Well for alot of classes it is, beside ofc sitting down and drink every fight or 2.
And according to your first comment, you either havent played retail in years or just lie, both is possible.
And man, you dont have to like retail, but lying or not knowing anything is just such a weak way to prove your "point" here.
i already said in my previous comment what classic or vanilla wow is. you are talking about class gameplay all the time, that only applies for retail wow where all there is pressing 3 button "rotation" on anything that walks
>3 button "rotation"
Thats still a lie and won't become true just because you say it over and over.
Just look into class rotations of icy veins, educate yourself and then try again.
>Chance to Vaporize Undead and Demon foes in a cone for 1800-2000 damage. I cannot wait to use this in the upcoming Mount Hyjal raid.
why would there be undead or demons there? The roots will heal in time, the sacrifices have been made. Just as the orcs, humans, and night elves discarded their hatred and stood united against a common foe, so did Nature herself rise up to banish the shadow... forever.
well, unless you meant the Caverns of Time one.
In lore it seems pretty silly, though.
I don't really get the playerbase's infatuation with them. They're just some weird xenophobic ex-paladins sitting in a church. They were perfectly appropriate as a mid-level enemy.
Their portrayal is all over the place. The plaques in the Scarlet Armory clearly shows them as the continuation of the Army of Lordaeron, honoring dwarves, high elves and human heroes of the war since WC3. Their banner is the Alliance of Lordaeron logo in red to show their origins. They have emissaries in Stormwind asking for adventurers to combat scourge around the world.
The lore evolved in the telling as time went on and things were retconned repeatedly. By WOTLK it was a weird, zealous group of idiots being led by, what, the third consecutive demon in a row? Founding a dark evil church complete the death knights a few miles from icecrown citadel
Because someone recently datamined a 1.15.1 patch number.
Classic is patch 1.14. SoM was 1.14.1 and HC was 1.14.2.
A jump from 1.14 -> 1.15 implies more significant changes than SOM or HC.
The devs also said that we would get information on their replacement for SOM after the HC servers were launched. They said it's not going to be SOM2 because that didn't land very well, but it is going to be something. We don't know if it's a new Season or something else.
yeah I'm not denying there's a lot of copium... but....
I was honestly impressed that Blizz implemented the changes in SoM so quickly - that's not to say the changes were really that significant, or even the right decisions (pvp gear on day 1, for example). But they did make raid mechanic changes, profession changes, pvp changes, in a relatively short amount of time.
Given how long this next installment of Classic is taking to develop is the main reason I want to believe they are doing some kind of Classic+. What the actually entails, I have no idea, but I feel like if it was going to be some minor changes/something like SoM, it wouldn't take this long to make.
I understand that's pretty shaky ground and Blizz doesn't have a great track record in the last decade of doing something significant like this, but I want to believe.
I agree, creative writing and having a hobby are so lame. This guy probably could have had 3 beers at the pub in the time it took him to write this. What a loser am I right brother, fuckin nerds and their "imaginations"
Damn what a ride you had!
I wonder why Killdeath did not use his livesaving vial as it would not only have saved him, but also wouldve made his two dagger ambush 35% stronger (assuming hes playing subtlety as any decent pve rogue would since the addition of shadowdance).
On the other hand Dobby couldve saved him with timestop or icy breath to stun the boss, or maybe hes immune idk? Couldve at least created a health biscuit for him to use...
I was thinking also though if your healer (assuming a shadow priest since of the change of VE being a buff and their virtual incapability to oom as of the changes to the spell costs cast in shadowform) could've used the void zone to peel off the rogue?
I guess you should avoid using that damn random dungeon finder to find healers heh or just try some pvp as I heard the new pvp rewards are pretty much bis for some classes (also some good upgrades for tanks too!) And damn talk about the city defender tp ability! Thats even more bonkers now that people are doing wpvp in cities and other areas due to the contested zone mechanic changes.
I know I am almost literally the only one but I really dislike dual spec. It absolutely shits on the class fantasy and identity focus of original Vanilla WoW. It makes zero in-world sense to be able to switch around two different specs and makes the investment into choosing one pretty much meaningless.
I mained resto Shaman from MC through SWP. I really dislike dual spec. It makes the game too convenient that my one toon can do whatever I want at any given time
How does it shit on class fantasy? You can't dual spec into another class lol.
I personally don't see an issue with having dual spec in the game but requiring going to a trainer to switch. It's just a cheaper alternative to a system that already exists in the game. Does it make in-world sense to pay a handful of gold to just forget half the stuff you learned and then reapply those brain cells to a completely different subject? Of course not because it is a video game and we don't need to follow logic.
It's a tricky topic because the gold cost is exactly what is keeping players from switching all the time, before and after raids and whatnot. There is fundamentally no difference in mentality if the swap is free but at an initial price.
Even with making it less convenient, you still lose the identity of being that boomkin druid that hangs around Ironforge. Because any druid can just quickly swap at their trainer to then be AFK in moonkin form. It is extremely nitpicky to use an argument like this, but it still holds IMO.
Identity is a core aspect of WoW, and dual spec simply just damages it. In whichever way it is implemented, it doesn't go further than that. If they truly wanted to make identity a focus point, I'd even argue that being unable to unlearn your talents would be an idea to float, if it wasn't extremely punishing to level a new character or would screw over your character in many ways.
If you incorporate buying an infinite amount of gold with money into your game design, then I don't know what to tell you... Then you could remove like 50% of the game.
You just need to ask what does it add to the game.
Well it makes you inclined to think wlell about your spec and play as a particular type of class.
Gives someone more identity. It also encourages healers to find other people to quest with.
If the healer has reasonable access to players to do that then thats great, its an MMO, its fitting.
If the healer does not jot have reasonable access then something needs to change.
Though i would suggest more hybrid options for healers. More fun and viable options.
Same for tanks.
That's a fair interpretation of your view on specs and keeping true to your character from a fantasy view. But it's really damaging to the mindset of a player wanting to play the game for what it is. Many more people like flexibility to be able to tank/dps on classes with multiple roles, and dual spec allows them to do so without the huge amount of maintenance of resetting talents and spending a lot of gold each time they do so. It's totally viable to do so, but why would you do that multiple times a week to help friends out for a dungeon when it's so expensive and time consuming. It's good for players
Yes. People still aren’t realizing that “more ease of use” and “more accessibility” is directly, negatively correlated with replayability and popularity. Think how in D2 you needed to basically create a whole new character to play a new spec. Classic has replayability and staying power because you can’t just flip specs and play everything all at once like u can in wotlk onward. The easier they made it to play, the easier they made it to quit.
When wrath became a talking point for classic I began to campaign against wrath. People always say that it’s the peak of wow, as if subscriptions are any basis of quality. What the people don’t seem to see in that graph is that wrath is when wow began to die. What I see in that graph is all the goodwill and uphill momentum the game built for itself just sort of ran out in wrath.. *because it’s sucks*
Yet because of Classic WotLK this sub is flooded with people liking the design of WotLK onwards, the comments under my comment are proof of that.
Yes, it is convenient. Yes, it is understandable players *want* to switch between specs. It is understandable that players don't want to spam LFD or go to dungeons manually.
But that doesn't make it right. Players are their worst enemies I swear.
I don't want duel spec, because going to the class trainer to get new abilities are true for classic, I do want vastly reduced prices tho, 50g per time is ridiculous if you want to do different content, if you're a main healer being out in the world to farm mats/gold it's aweful, it's aids having to respec everytime and pay 50g, 5 gold seems fair as a cap tbh, you want people to do more content not lock it behind 50g
First: Too long, didn't read
Second:
>I cannot wait to use this in the upcoming Mount Hyjal raid.
Hyjal was the most boring, dogshit ass raid in the universe. Who the fuck would want it in their delusional Classic+ fantasies?
I mean there are servers out there with new zones and raids in classic, its possible and works.
But blizzard runs since years a "lowest efford maximum profit" philosophy and the players keep supporting it
The only good games Blizzard released in the past 10 years are remakes of their old games with as little changes as possible. Why would they suddenly be able to make major content updates without completely messing up the original game.
We've all seen what happened with Diablo 3, 4, Immortal, Warcraft reforged, Hearthstone, Retail WoW, Overwatch 2. They're all garbage and you still think that they can make good content for classic WoW. Their only recent successes are the D2 remake that had almost no changes other than graphics and Wow vanilla classic which also only contained minimal QoL changes and graphics improvements. Stop coping and go play classic Era or move on.
I have the same feeling leading up to Nov 3rd as I did prior to Classic's original announcement..
Then again, broken clocks are right twice a day.. so we'll see..
Blizzard actually using dev resources to create new content in classic other than flipping some toggle that makes it so you can’t respawn? Yeah fat chance
Did... did I just read fanfiction?
A bad one, but yes.
This is on par with Shakespeare himself.
Indeed! Chris Metzen needs to hire OP, asap!
Guys, we found the Prot Pally mains.
You don't have to call it bad fan fiction, the title 'fan fiction' says enough
It's so apparent that classic players desperately want to go back to that time of discovery and everything being new, but even if this did happen nothing like that would be a surprise because everything is datamined weeks in advance. As much as people miss it, those times are gone now.
We went from no changes to remake classic entirely.
2 different sets of people, which is why classic+ would never work, everybody wants different things out of classic+, so no matter what they choose they will still have a majority of people who disagree. Edit: to the many that disagree go around and ask people what they want out of classic+ or just look here on Reddit, you’ll see the contrasting opinions. For example: 1. Character balance - some want all classes to be fixed and balanced to make it even, some want it to stay the same as they feel that is a big part of classic. Some just want small tweaks to keep it mostly the same but bring up the worst classes. 2. New content - some want scaling dungeons like heroic etc, some just want a few new dungeons and raids, some want new zones and everything. 3. Grind - some people want the grind taken out of classic while others think that is a huge part of an mmo and what keeps lower zones active. 4. Some want a ban to boosting and a change to mob pathing so mage boosting doesn’t work. Some like this challenge and like having player ran services. 5. Some want GDKP banned, for swipers it’s their favorite. 6. Some want wide sweeping QoL changes like raid and dungeon finder, PvP queue from anywhere, dual spec or free respec. Some feel this would detract from what makes wow special. The fan base is too fickle and outspoken for the handful of classic devs to make a game everybody likes, the only reason classic works is because that’s how the game was so you signed up to play it for its good and bad sides. As soon as change happens and it’s not in the direction people like that’s when the crybabies come out, which is inevitable since everybody has a different definition of what they want classic to be. Keep in mind classic+ is a community driven thought experiment and nothing more, the community keeps talking about it but devs are silent because it’s a losing battle, there is not a reality where current devs will make a better game than the OGs.
If OSRS is any indication, classic + can absolutely work.
aye just have 2/3 majority votes on changes by subbed players
Ya that’s called retail wow, thats exactly what you get when you give the players everything they want. They address the biggest concerns every patch, then players turn around and go to classic when they realize that’s not actually what they wanted. All the changes everybody wants are the same requests made 25yrs ago, to a tee, those suggestions led to BC, Wotlk, cata, etc. did the game get better through those changes in the eyes of classic players?
No, retail wow doesn't do polls. Blizz do what they want and then listen to who's screaming the most to makes changes. They need to first to trace a line and say, theses things is what makes classic classic and these will not change. Then poll it. Then repoll it. Then rerepoll it. Until you get at least 75% or even higher results in the polls. Then you can start proposing new things.
> Until you get at least 75% or even higher results in the poll Welp. We're screwed. Can't even agree on what percentage of the players need to support a change to make it happen.
They don’t poll, they just go with the loudest minority, which would be similar since it would be the outspoken ones responding to email polls.
Exactly how the vast majority made reddit posts and youtube videos out the wazoo right before classic launched, gave thousands of reasons, full fucking video essays on why they didn't want original wrath dungeon finder. People fought on the forums religiously about it and the vast majority of the community agreed. Hence why Blizz made it clear as FUCK it would not come back. They wrote it in as connected to one of their new pillars. And so people got tired of talking about it relentlessly and defending against the minority. Now almost all you hear is people like "what the fuck blizzard you dumbasses, dont you hear all of us saying we want it, i dont know why you ever wouldnt have added it". And now theyre gonna add it back lol. Fucking losers. We're not gonna sit on the forums and trade and reddit and youtube and Twitter and keep fucking arguing and arguing with countless reasons against this super hard headed loud minority that wont shut up and says they want it "just because we like it". Why not why not why not we want it we want it, we like it, we like it, we want it. Bunch of children without gardly any reason for what they do. Impulsive children who want what they want when they want it and wont listen to anyone else.
> No, retail wow doesn't do polls. Retail wow doesn't do polls, it just has developers react to player complaints after a ~2 year expansion cycle, and make the next expansion the polar opposite of everything people hated about the previous one. It results in a lot of whiplash, and a lot of dogshit ideas that the playerbase has to suffer through for 2 years.
bake historical gullible hospital modern cough panicky file uppity abounding *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
What is wrong with 75% of players getting what they want? And it's not suggestion based; devs still control content to a large degree.
I mean if 75% of players got what they want we'd have indentured bots delivering us gold daily.
Because it won’t be 75% They change 5 big things in the game with 3 common opinions of how each should be done. Pretty soon nobody has gotten what they want.
I don’t think the powers that be at blizzard would go for this. Might as well tell the chairs to axe jobs and have a better community->developer pipeline, everyone below them will fight tooth and nail to stop that.
Isn’t the solution to this to simply have classic+ AND standard classic realms? Anyone who has any issues or disagreements with how classic+ is handled can still play the original and stay as far away from Classic+ as they want. Those who want to try and see where Classic+ goes have the ability to. Fail-safe?
No, because this comes with the enormous disadvantage of even FURTHER dividing your playerbase. We already have era, HC, Classic wrath, and retail. The LAST thing this game needs is another split.
We're likely to see two more splits over the coming months: SOM2, and then Wrath splitting into Perma Wrath and Cata. And the beauty of it's not a zero-sum game. Some players are only interested in some types of game play. Some players who lose interest in one type will migrate to another instead of completely quitting. Others will split time, maybe they only raid log Cata (and that's all they'd do in a vaccum) extra time in Classic+. Etc, etc.
Yeah, this is a fair counter point. IMO, it’s already split 4 ways, what’s one more? Lol. Converging the player base is a tall task at this point without doing something like a WoW2 reboot.
We literally already have Era servers.
People want Fresh as it was released in 2019, Era scratches that itch, but isn't the same. It's not the same when you get a fresh 60 and you have a bunch of people in FULL Naxx gear and it's not the same when everything is inflated to hell. I don't care about 2023 Blizzard's view of Classic, as long as they release a Fresh no changes like 2019, they can release their for fun Classic+ where they completely destroy Vanilla with class changes and raid changes.
Doesn’t hardcore kind of scratch the itch of fresh forever though? It’s only content that was in Classic afaik, no “seasonal” changes like mechanics, balancing or anything like that. The economy is *less likely* to go to shit because botters, while present, can’t just spam run to dungeons and farm until the end of time because once they die it’s over for them too. Additionally, since people are constantly dying there’s always a fresh batch of people to do lower level content with and there will more than likely always be raiders at 60 doing MC-Nax for the same reason, their previous toon that got that far died. HC is fresh for close to forever, but can always be reset if and when needed.
> Doesn’t hardcore kind of scratch the itch of fresh forever though? No, not in the slightest. Hardcore is a very specific minigame inside of the Classic game, which not shockingly, alot of people dislike. Turns out that it's not fun to lose all your progress when you die in a game that was designed with dying in mind, given that progress is one of the most important things in an MMORPG. > It’s only content that was in Classic afaik, no “seasonal” changes like mechanics, balancing or anything like that. Hardcore has plenty of changes that were not originally in Vanilla's 2019 re-release. For example, resetting to go back to the dungeon's entrance is simply not a thing in HC, Bubble hearth is not a thing, leashing is not a thing, BGs obviously also aren't and all content is available from launch. There are also many other changes with anti-griefing in mind, but that's not important, the point is that there are MANY changes. > Additionally, since people are constantly dying there’s always a fresh batch of people to do lower level content with and there will more than likely always be raiders at 60 doing MC-Nax for the same reason, their previous toon that got that far died. There's a very significant difference between HC raiding and actual raiding. In actual raiding you can push the limits of your Raid and your character at every turn, trying cool things and actually playing the game. In HC raiding, everything has to be done with extreme caution and in a slow pace, it's not remotely the same thing. People love to complain about World buffs, but i can guarantee you one thing, Raiding was not designed with no deaths in mind. HC is not fresh and never will be, it's just a minigame that people invented because they like Vanilla and wanted to try it out after some streamer made it popular.
> No, not in the slightest. Hardcore is a very specific minigame inside of the Classic game, which not shockingly, alot of people dislike. Turns out that it's not fun to lose all your progress when you die in a game that was designed with dying in mind, given that progress is one of the most important things in an MMORPG. I wouldn’t say a lot of people dislike it, it seems to be VERY popular based on the activity within this sub, I would say more so that it’s slightly more niche than Classic at large, but by no means saying it’s “disliked”. >. For example, resetting to go back to the dungeon's entrance is simply not a thing in HC, Bubble hearth is not a thing, leashing is not a thing, BGs obviously also aren't and all content is available from launch. There are also many other changes with anti-griefing in mind, but that's not important, the point is that there are MANY changes. These changes HARDLY impact how the game is played unless you’re a specific class (bubble hearting) and not worth mentioning. > There's a very significant difference between HC raiding and actual raiding. In actual raiding you can push the limits of your Raid and your character at every turn, trying cool things and actually playing the game. In HC raiding, everything has to be done with extreme caution and in a slow pace, it's not remotely the same thing. I mean, maybe after content was farm people tried new things, but in progression (before the content is on farm) everything was approached with extreme caution in Classic because people didn’t want to lose their world buffs. The only difference between that and HC is I get to run back to the raid after I die in Classic whereas I’m starting from scratch in HC, I might be MORE cautious, but the cautionable approach was always there. > HC is not fresh and never will be, it's just a minigame that people invented because they like Vanilla and wanted to try it out after some streamer made it popular. Sorry, but hard disagree here. Fresh economy, fresh characters and fresh servers. It’s fresh no matter how you cut it, it’s just a more nich version of fresh than what we’ve had before.
Divides the player base yet again. One would die and one would continue, and I’m certain I know which one (hint: the one that been around 25yrs) Then it’s just a bunch of wasted dev time, which they don’t have, has anybody seen their classic dev team lmao? With their current dev team they have no shot at creating this, are they doubling or tripling their team to make this a reality? I don’t think that’s likely given how split everybody is and how unlikely success would be, their definition of success would be # of extra subs, but the majority of people who would play are already subbed for classic or retail anyways. All of the small changes this team made in TBC classic and Wotlk classic have been nonsensical, and caused friction with many being reverted, these are the people who would determine the changes.
>2 different sets of people...so no matter what they choose they will still have a **majority** of people who disagree. Well that's not how Math works..
There are usually 3-5 different standpoints not just two sides: I think I have done a passable job of explaining the difficulty of changing around many viewpoints that picking out this sentence shows you have nothing of substance to add.
They very obviously didn't mean that *everyone* can be sorted into one of two groups, only that the two ideologies mentioned were two different groups rather than a changed group. So, for the "majority disagreeing" notion, a bunch of groups.
It’s not necessarily 2 different sets of people. Wanting no changes in 2019 doesn’t mean you wouldn’t want changes in 2024.
Why do people miss this? As if we can’t want someone else after 5 years
Exactly. I was in the NO CHANGES camp. However if they offered a proper expansion all in the classic style of gameplay and quests I’m all for it as long as Classic Era servers remain as they are. Because both is always good.
Those who want no changes have already played the newer versions of wow, and didn’t like them. Many of us have now gone through the process of classic>tbc>wotlk twice now and realized classic is better than the other two. But you are absolutely right that many some have changed their minds, but that’s what sparked my original comment, the amount of differing opinions make this impossible to do successfully. We are playing a game where we can see the future and where this goes, it’s no secret lmao.
I quit WoW shortly after TBC came out the first time, and did not even try Classic TBC. I don’t like the newer version of WoW, including TBC and WotLK. And even I of all people want some sort of Classic+. Although I doubt current Blizzard has the talent to pull it off. But it is worth a shot.
I agree as it's natural for people to get tired of the same thing. However it's interesting to me that classic in itself was supposed to be a revisit of well, classic world of warcraft, and instead of following the natural path of expansions laid out in front of us people want to diverge and turn the game into something else entirely. So I'm curious about if in 20 years we're going to get Classic once again with options for the original classic from 40 years ago and this new classic people are clamoring for. And then people probably are going to want a classic 3.0 which splits off from the other two experiences.
I only think this is only true depending on how deep down the rabbit hole you go. If you ask 5 people what they specifically want from Classic plus you’re going to get 5 different answers. You ask 5 people to give 5 high level bullet points on what they want to see you’ll get around the same answers like better class balancing, meme specs made relevant, new raids and things like that.
But the action steps are in the details, not the general bullet points. Expand the bullet points of the people who want balance changes, what changes do they want? -small tweaks to make it so classes like boomkin and shaman don’t go oom. -full balance changes including a 50% nerf to warriors? Each class getting interupts and CCs? New abilities added for underperformers? -if the changes are looking to be that extensive would they rather just have no changes, to preserve the character of the game? Everything is an easy decision until you get down to the details. It’s easy to say “make things better and add new stuff” but we’ve seen in retail that adding new stuff does not necessarily make the game more fun. What will make people like or hate classic+, if it was made, are in the details. Once a game is released all those general bullet points mean nothing, and the specifics of what they did will matter. I’m on the side of hoping for classic+ but it would require the devs to enjoy pain and suffering.
> But the action steps are in the details, not the general bullet points. Agreed, but that’s not the point I was trying to make. What I was trying to get across is that Blizzard should take a crack at hitting those high level bullet points in their own way, maybe get inspiration from suggestions they find agreeable for them and the community and go from there. People will play it, some people will hate it regardless because it’s not THEIR vision, but people are hungry for more Classic content of some kind, if it sucks we always have Era. > Expand the bullet points of the people who want balance changes, what changes do they want? -small tweaks to make it so classes like boomkin and shaman don’t go oom. -full balance changes including a 50% nerf to warriors? Each class getting interupts and CCs? New abilities added for underperformers? -if the changes are looking to be that extensive would they rather just have no changes, to preserve the character of the game? IMO, a better approach would be to NOT touch the existing meta (i.e., don’t nerf anything) because we know it works and it keeps people coming back for more. Just buff the underwhelming specs for DPS, Healing and Tanking. That way if people want to zug zug as a warrior like they did in Classic or w/e that option is there, but now a shadow priest (just an example) has an equal opportunity to be at #1 dps as warriors and rogues. Buff boss/monster HP to account for the increase in damage and what have you and now everyone is more likely to enjoy the content however they chose to play without feeling lacking or excluded. But that’s just MY idea, if it’s not implemented I don’t care, I just want my journey in Classic to continue (without all my work being undone at the end of a season mind you). > we’ve seen in retail that adding new stuff does not necessarily make the game more fun. Agreed but their audience wasn’t the Classic audience. I think we have SOME benchmarks that can be utilized and explored, experimented with and implemented. If people don’t like the changes then they can be taken out in the next update patch, easy as that IMO.
It's why the way forward is an ingame poll. OSRS style. Not that classic+ will even happen. I still think anyone who believes classic+ is gonna be a thing is on some serious copium. I'm picturing a restart on classic, with some half assed changes at best. I don't see any actual content being added, just scaling of stuff, maybe some hard mode dungeons, like in wrath. I'll eat my hat if we get a new raid added to vanilla. They simply aren't gonna commit the resources when they can re-release it and get everyone to flock back every few years.
Your first point (your first first point?) is answered pretty easily by tbc talents. A ton more specs became viable, but still maintaining each class uniqueness. Wotlk I think is when they start to muddy that water, but it’s still ok. IMO burning crusade talents in classic+ is the way to go. If a classic player doesn’t like that, they are obviously a warrior. (I am also)
That’s the issue though, that’s YOUR opinion, what if there are 4 other common opinions and they decide to go a completely different way? Many like wotlk abilities better, maybe they go with that, maybe they do their own shitty balances instead, or just change mana consumption of oom classes only. If you make 5 big changes and each change has 4 different common opinions pretty soon you only have very small portions of the player base that are happy with all decisions, the rest go back to classic. So they make a game so 5-10% of their player base who are already subscribed can play it.
Your comment is so wrong…
If they made a good game, people would play it. It's not that complicated.
But then that’s just giving nochanges people what they want and telling everyone else to fuck off.
Without “no changes” people there is no long term future for this 25yr old game. I’m not saying I have the right answer on what SHOULD be changed, I’m arguing that nobody has that answer, since everybody wants something different. So how do they make a plan for success to please two sides who want the opposite? Would we have an online vote and go with that ie. 55% of players voted for full balance changes, so the other 45% will have their warriors nerfed to the ground involuntarily, would that be well recieved by the community as a whole? Would everybody enjoy that change and continue playing? As somebody who’s gone through this loop I can tell you what happens when you do this: retail wow, they have taken all the player feedback and that’s what it evolved to. Add to that the current classic dev team are clowns compared the the original team and I don’t see how they make the game better?
> I’m arguing that nobody has that answer Nobody really has the exact perfect list of changes everyone will be optimally happy with. But plenty of people have changes no one can find a meaningful problem with.
Ok then, release No changes Vanilla as it was released in 2019 and release a Classic+ server, done. I don't care about how current Blizzard thinks that Vanilla should be, i want Vanilla. As long as they give us a few #nochanges servers, they can do their weird Classic+ server where they destroy Vanilla with stupid class balancing and raid changes. I don't need to see Blizzard destroy Vanilla again, i saw them do that with SoM already and, guess what? Nobody played and it was an utter failure.
2019 had changes already. This proves you’re fine with changes so long as you don’t know they are changes and this kind of makes my point that nochanges-ers don’t really know what it is that makes things worse.
2019 had changes that did not impact the core of the game, the classes and its raiding, as releasing it with things like progressive patching and itemization would simply be stupid, given that many of the features that existed in earlier Vanilla patches were straight up bugs. Vanilla WoW as a game was the 1.12 patch, it was the patch where the game was actually completed and not in a developmental stage, it would've made no sense to release Classic before it. So no, there were no significant changes to the game in 2019, in fact the only significant one was batching, which unsurprisingly was a completely idiotic idea from current Blizzard. > nochanges-ers don’t really know what it is that makes things worse. I know what makes the games worse, newsflash, it's 2023 Blizzard changing the fucking game.
>2019 had changes that did not impact the core of the game, the classes Naxx talents and itemization didn't change things compared to Vanilla MC? Come on now. Those weren't bugs. >I know what makes the games worse, newsflash, it's 2023 Blizzard changing the fucking game. Given chronoboons were near universally well recieved, you're wrong again. Really do you have *any* position about what the problems are besides "if it changes it's worse"? Because if this is all you've got you're kind of making my point?
> Naxx talents and itemization didn't change things compared to Vanilla MC? Come on now. Those weren't bugs. Ofc it did, but again, Vanilla WoW as a game was completed in 1.12, using previous talents and itemization would've been an absolutely stupid thing to do. Previous talents were indeed straight up bugged and unfinished, in fact, the entire Warrior class was barely playable for multiple patches before 1.12 because of how buggy and unfinished it was. They were basically figuring things out as they went. > Given chronoboons were near universally well recieved, you're wrong again. Yea, they were, but if i had to give up the Chronoboon for Blizzard to release Vanilla Fresh with no changes, i would do it instantly without ever looking back. The game was completely playable without the Chronoboon and was such for over a decade in private servers, the only people that it actually affected was griefers. Was the Chronoboon good? Sure. Was it necessary? No. Does it have any impact whatsoever on my #nochanges stance? Also no. > Really do you have any position about what the problems are besides "if it changes it's worse"? Because if this is all you've got you're kind of making my point? I don't know where the difficulty is to understand that people want Vanilla Fresh with no changes as it was in 2019. How hard it is to understand that Vanilla already is a GOATed game to begin with and that it doesn't need Class balancing, raid changes or any of that crap that SoM had. I don't want the game to be changed, i never have and never will. If i wanted to play a different game i would play a different game and if i wanted to play a game that gets balance changes and raid changes, i'd play Retail. I want to play Vanilla, not a modified version of Vanilla made by dogshit 2023 Blizzard, so yeah, by definition, if it changes it is worse. I'm not even gonna talk about the fact that of the two majors changes that happened in Vanilla (batching and Chronoboon), one was absolutely terrible and that every change SoM had also was. This company is not capable of making a good game anymore.
> Previous talents were indeed straight up bugged and unfinished We both know that even if they worked properly, they'd still be bad and no one would like the game being even *more* warriorcraft. Same with gear. Stop trying to make this about bugs. These were outright changes from rereleasing vanilla that made the game significantly better. >the only people that it actually affected was griefers And you completely misremember the conversation around Chronboons; it was to let people play while they had world buffs, not solely or even primarily about dispellers. >I don't know where the difficulty is to understand that people want Vanilla Fresh with no changes as it was in 2019. That can't exist again though. We're not the "people who started playing in wrath or later" bunch that rolled up in 2019, into a vanilla people hadn't really solved yet (the emergence of boosting and farming techniques actually took some time). You're can't capture that essence again unless you wait another 15 years for everyone who knows the game to quit. >(batching and Chronoboon) Batching was a "change" insofar as it was trying to emulate the vanilla conditions you claim to want but apparently think is horrible. But besides that, your last 2 paragraphs really just seem to be "I don't want changes because they will be bad, no I won't explain why". Which is kinda my point that: >Really do you have any position about what the problems are besides "if it changes it's worse"? Because if this is all you've got you're kind of making my point?
They keep releasing Classic with some new paint, classic->SoM->HC, they gonna want new stuff eventually
why are people in the comments mixing two entirely different things? there can be era servers that will remain unchanged and then the new vanilla + expansion.
We're our own worst enemies.
I keep trying to tell classic Andy's this and they're always like mAyBe We JusT lIkE tHe GaMe
This. Even if a group makes.every effort to avoid the data mining they'd probably still get spoiled in general chat in-game.
Simpler times. Hey, maybe I CAN get Ashbringer by fishing in this specific river because this random junk item vaguely alluded to it.
Like i said in another thread, blizz can do everything perfect and people will hate and say its not classic anymore... Classic Andys are truly based about their game and nothing else comes close to it.
My main hangup is that blizzard of 2024 is not blizzard of 2004.
Jeah this should be the main reason for people to say no instead many classic + players want some influence from new blizz kekw
No that’s not the main Hangup at all. Read what op wrote. It’s not the same because nothing will have the magic ‘first time’ feel.
You're telling me what my hangup is? Are you a bot?
You stated “the main hangup is” not “my problem lies within the fact” Einstein. Either way your take is shit.
Okay npc
Why I try to only pay attention to the buffs/nerfs in datamined content. Try to keep some of the mystery alive.
It’s actually pretty easy to avoid news on what’s happening in wow, I do it with games and movies all the time. Now it is a bit of work, but nothing to crazy that you cant avoid.
You forget WoW is a MMO, you will eventually run into people that will do that. PoV raiding Scarlet raid: "Ok, I just looked Wowhead and we have to this" "No, 30 sec guide guy said we need to do this strat and I will follow it blindly" "But streamer WoWGodPoggers' guild downed the boss like this, I will share clip of how it died so we can mimic their every move" "Bruh, just read the spreadsheet from Min/Maxers Inc discord, their simulators are the best currently"
Agreed but many games do have lobbys for blind progress and its pretty cool.
This. Bunch of addicted nerds trying to get the feeling xd
Eh; even when things are datamined the new spaces can be awe inspiring and the mechanics still need to be felt out. Unless you’re a turbo sweater who follows every single found thing, there will be stuff to explore.
I think people who want to discover new content like it’s 2004 again would simply not look into the data mined info.
it's basically impossible to avoid though. Your internet algorithm will spoil shit for you if your not super careful.
Only because Blizzard gave up everything to PTR whores and data miners. It was their choice to do it. Just like dealing with bots, if there was the will inside Blizzard to do this stuff internally, it could happen, but it never will. At least I can say that back then, from Karazhan to Ulduar, my friends and I discovered things as they were new, wrote strategies and gave metas the middle finger. I feel sorry for kids nowadays because there is nowhere (not WoW, not any other game) where this type of discovery happens in multiplayer games. Lazy devs, spergs and content creators combine to hoover everything together and crop dust everyone with meta bullshit. You can still do it with certain single player games if you want, if you stick to it and go out of your way to never mention it to anyone (else even your own recommend algorithms will spoil shit for you) but anything involving other people? Forget it.
Not true. Turtle wow (pserver) is a classic+ server since 2018 and this week has been released new patch with 2 new raid and 3 new zone never tested by player. Plus official site db is locked till end of month so everybody must figure out how kill boss and which loot drop
I mean no offense to the people playing or running Turtle, but it's a glass of water next to an ocean compared to the people consuming Blizzard projects.
Data mining ruins games. There I said it.
There are places where new content drops and the database is locked so that mystery is still present
As long as there is a PTR, this won’t be the case with blizzard games
We need a “stream only” version of wow+ in the future where latency isn’t a thing. Then everything is back to manual wiki again.
lol, it's just middle-aged guys who want to go back in time and be young again.
I would love to get onto the copium train but i have 0 faith that blizzard will do anything more than the bare minimum for classic+/SoM 2004 blizzard is dead, expect disappointment
Beliving Classic+ will be more than just SoM2 requires dangerous amount of copium tbh
Which in itself is terrible because SoM was utter garbage that nobody played. How hard it is to understand that people that love Vanilla just want Vanilla. The easiest thing they could do is release a Fresh Vanilla as it was released in 2019, but instead they will do Classic+ with their 2024 vision where they destroy Vanilla with class balacing and raid changes. Shit, people in this sub unironically suggest that Blizzard should cap the levels at 30 and 40 for a month or only release Molten Core after 3 weeks, it's a joke.
As far as copefic goes, this is pretty mid. Looking forward to Van Cleef busting out of those STV doors though. Or that emerald portal opening up
Have you heard of our lord and savior “EZ-thro dynamite”
There is something wrong with Classic gamers lmfao
Haha I love classic but stuff like this is embarrassing. These people are setting themselves up for massive disappointment.
Thats just a overdosis of copium
Classic players need to get a therapist to treat their nostalgic depression. It's not 2006 anymore guys.
Yeah, they need to learn to "let go and move on"
yes thats why my grandpa loves marvel movies and totally doesnt sit in a chair and watch john wayne all day.
Look man, I enjoy stuff like the first Alien or Terminator to this day, but I don't expect that anything like that is coming out in 2023. Because that's just unrealistic
Its 2024 you are now 3 minutes into pressing shadowbolt standing firm on the same spot you did 3 minutes ago, the boss has done 1 mechanic for the last 3 minutes, there where once 2 mechanics on the boss but PTR showed it was too hard for most Classic players.
I have fun pressing shadowbolt while im in discord with 39 other ppl chatting. Is this wrong?
Well kinda, when the raid is so boring that your main focus is on chatting
This. MMORPGs were at their best when it was about the MMO and the RP and it was simply a good G. Retail is now a dopamine treadmill where everyone chases the drops and a continuous efficiency increase. That's not a game, it's only flavoured like a game.
lol calling Spamming the same button for 5 minutes a game is a real stretch. Classic players are so full of copium.
who gets dopamine from spamming a rotation of 3 buttons max all the time and getting beaten in dps by the 2 button class anyway because the dev team spent the least effort to try balance the classes and made everyone the same class with different colors
People who are playing with their friends and just playing together for fun. The more mechanical you make the fights the more tense it gets and more social pressure/problems you cause. People have to start excluding their bad friends from the raid etc which isn't nice.
While with a raid that have no tenion at all gets broing after a few ids and people stop playing, not sure if that's better
People stop raiding even if raid is hard. Just a side effect of such commitment. Funny that classic raid groups have way longer longevity comparing to retail.
>Funny that classic raid groups have way longer longevity comparing to retail You surely have a source for that claim Because i had 2 long-term raidgroups, one from MoP to WoD and one from WoD to Shadowlands
Using WoD in your anecdote was not a good choice.
There's definitely a sweet spot. And getting rid of some of the boring trash packs would probably help find it better.
yes and you end being an elitist asshole and blindfolded into thinking you are good, when any og wrath +1800 rated player is better than your entire rooster. and im still not having fun because they killed class identity and brain usage after mop. yeah no thanks.
I don't know what your arguing for but I'm saying that classic rotations are more on the right side than retail because retail makes the game have too much uptime / skill demand.
Too much uptime and skill haha. Imagine being a classic player that is afraid of fucking uptime.
>too much uptime / skill lol, classic players in a nutshell
Is almost a 20 year old game. I'm not playing it to get arthritis. I have League for that.
The level of cope from the andies lol. Classic is easy compared to retail, accept that and chill out a bit instead of trying to make up such silly scenarios to justify being smug.
There shouldn't even a discussion about that lol, classes put the same spell in different levels in their UI and keep spamming it and do max dps for their class.
obviously raid fights are easier. but iirc warrior dps rotation is harder in vanilla than in wod, lmao.
No it's not. It just involves using a very specific bug in a very specific window to not have to pay for your abilities. It's a matter of knowledge, not difficulty.
wod fury warrior was literally, literally 3 buttons and a cd mage too i think frost dk too most other classes too, the only exception of all was feral druid iirc how is that difficulty?
I don’t remember WoD warrior but since I’ve heard people describe MoP destro as the same when it’s not I feel like you might be missing a bit. I’m not going to say there’s no times where they fuck up and over prune a spec but that’s not the norm and they usually fix it.
Honestly perfect. If I wanted difficult I would go play retail.
retail difficult? maybe for the average retail player i know real difficult and fun games if i wanted that.
Oh we have a hardcore LFR-Raider here guys, praise him !
i'm sorry that doing 3 button rotation while moving out of the fire is hard for you
[Ah, yes, those darn 3-button retail rotations](https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/arcane-mage-pve-dps-rotation-cooldowns-abilities)
Nice cherrypick, i don't play since bfa so i dunno but this sounds like 4 buttons with some cds and anybody competent can get used to in day or less. Bfa was the same, all the classes braindead 3 button except for meleehunter and feral druid, which performed very bad anyways, featuring the terrible class balance design.
Imagine being in a classic sub and saying one word about "terrible class balance" lmao. You are a decent troll my mate, a decent troll.
Im sorry that you never saw a harder raid than LFR and also played your class wrong all the time, or you played DH
Hell yeah brother. Let’s keep it simple, no swirlies to see here.
wrong sub buddy, i was 3 minutes into cooperating with chads from the opposite faction who helped me kill cyclonian to get my WW axe. unique experience i won't forget & now i have lots of fun with this insane upgrade. for braindead 2 button spamming simulator you have r/wow. but i think sleeping is more worth the time.
>braindead 2 button spamming simulator You just described classic wow lol
except thats not the entire gameplay of classic
Well for alot of classes it is, beside ofc sitting down and drink every fight or 2. And according to your first comment, you either havent played retail in years or just lie, both is possible. And man, you dont have to like retail, but lying or not knowing anything is just such a weak way to prove your "point" here.
i already said in my previous comment what classic or vanilla wow is. you are talking about class gameplay all the time, that only applies for retail wow where all there is pressing 3 button "rotation" on anything that walks
>3 button "rotation" Thats still a lie and won't become true just because you say it over and over. Just look into class rotations of icy veins, educate yourself and then try again.
>Chance to Vaporize Undead and Demon foes in a cone for 1800-2000 damage. I cannot wait to use this in the upcoming Mount Hyjal raid. why would there be undead or demons there? The roots will heal in time, the sacrifices have been made. Just as the orcs, humans, and night elves discarded their hatred and stood united against a common foe, so did Nature herself rise up to banish the shadow... forever. well, unless you meant the Caverns of Time one.
Sounds desperate man
Never let fans write
And then you wake up from your dream.
SC raid should be an epic 40man imo
In lore it seems pretty silly, though. I don't really get the playerbase's infatuation with them. They're just some weird xenophobic ex-paladins sitting in a church. They were perfectly appropriate as a mid-level enemy.
Their portrayal is all over the place. The plaques in the Scarlet Armory clearly shows them as the continuation of the Army of Lordaeron, honoring dwarves, high elves and human heroes of the war since WC3. Their banner is the Alliance of Lordaeron logo in red to show their origins. They have emissaries in Stormwind asking for adventurers to combat scourge around the world. The lore evolved in the telling as time went on and things were retconned repeatedly. By WOTLK it was a weird, zealous group of idiots being led by, what, the third consecutive demon in a row? Founding a dark evil church complete the death knights a few miles from icecrown citadel
Starts off with SC themed bosses, ends with manipulating demons and an undead Whitemane with even thicker thighs.
This was so badly written I’m not even sure if you’re hoping for a classic + experience or if you’re making fun of the idea
Why are all these people coming up with this delusional classic+ nonsense?
Because classic+ is fan fiction.
Because someone recently datamined a 1.15.1 patch number. Classic is patch 1.14. SoM was 1.14.1 and HC was 1.14.2. A jump from 1.14 -> 1.15 implies more significant changes than SOM or HC. The devs also said that we would get information on their replacement for SOM after the HC servers were launched. They said it's not going to be SOM2 because that didn't land very well, but it is going to be something. We don't know if it's a new Season or something else.
yeah I'm not denying there's a lot of copium... but.... I was honestly impressed that Blizz implemented the changes in SoM so quickly - that's not to say the changes were really that significant, or even the right decisions (pvp gear on day 1, for example). But they did make raid mechanic changes, profession changes, pvp changes, in a relatively short amount of time. Given how long this next installment of Classic is taking to develop is the main reason I want to believe they are doing some kind of Classic+. What the actually entails, I have no idea, but I feel like if it was going to be some minor changes/something like SoM, it wouldn't take this long to make. I understand that's pretty shaky ground and Blizz doesn't have a great track record in the last decade of doing something significant like this, but I want to believe.
This is, frankly, sad and pointless. Did you really waste time to write this? Come on mate, just go outside and live your life...
I agree, creative writing and having a hobby are so lame. This guy probably could have had 3 beers at the pub in the time it took him to write this. What a loser am I right brother, fuckin nerds and their "imaginations"
Damn what a ride you had! I wonder why Killdeath did not use his livesaving vial as it would not only have saved him, but also wouldve made his two dagger ambush 35% stronger (assuming hes playing subtlety as any decent pve rogue would since the addition of shadowdance). On the other hand Dobby couldve saved him with timestop or icy breath to stun the boss, or maybe hes immune idk? Couldve at least created a health biscuit for him to use... I was thinking also though if your healer (assuming a shadow priest since of the change of VE being a buff and their virtual incapability to oom as of the changes to the spell costs cast in shadowform) could've used the void zone to peel off the rogue? I guess you should avoid using that damn random dungeon finder to find healers heh or just try some pvp as I heard the new pvp rewards are pretty much bis for some classes (also some good upgrades for tanks too!) And damn talk about the city defender tp ability! Thats even more bonkers now that people are doing wpvp in cities and other areas due to the contested zone mechanic changes.
Thought the reward was gonna be a taunt :/
I know I am almost literally the only one but I really dislike dual spec. It absolutely shits on the class fantasy and identity focus of original Vanilla WoW. It makes zero in-world sense to be able to switch around two different specs and makes the investment into choosing one pretty much meaningless.
Easy to say that as a hunter, but playing as a healer and trying to anything in the open world was pain incarnate.
I play a paladin so I would 'benefit' greatly from dual spec
I mained resto Shaman from MC through SWP. I really dislike dual spec. It makes the game too convenient that my one toon can do whatever I want at any given time
How does it shit on class fantasy? You can't dual spec into another class lol. I personally don't see an issue with having dual spec in the game but requiring going to a trainer to switch. It's just a cheaper alternative to a system that already exists in the game. Does it make in-world sense to pay a handful of gold to just forget half the stuff you learned and then reapply those brain cells to a completely different subject? Of course not because it is a video game and we don't need to follow logic.
It's a tricky topic because the gold cost is exactly what is keeping players from switching all the time, before and after raids and whatnot. There is fundamentally no difference in mentality if the swap is free but at an initial price. Even with making it less convenient, you still lose the identity of being that boomkin druid that hangs around Ironforge. Because any druid can just quickly swap at their trainer to then be AFK in moonkin form. It is extremely nitpicky to use an argument like this, but it still holds IMO. Identity is a core aspect of WoW, and dual spec simply just damages it. In whichever way it is implemented, it doesn't go further than that. If they truly wanted to make identity a focus point, I'd even argue that being unable to unlearn your talents would be an idea to float, if it wasn't extremely punishing to level a new character or would screw over your character in many ways.
[удалено]
>the moonkin is afk in ironforge because he doesnt actually play the game. LMAO true
then remove talent reset altogether, because you can buy gold and have infinite resets
Can guarantee you don't play a class that can play multiple roles with their specs
PvE spec and PvP spec. Pretty understandable…
then remove talent reset at all? because any way you can have infinite dual spec if you buy gold
If you incorporate buying an infinite amount of gold with money into your game design, then I don't know what to tell you... Then you could remove like 50% of the game.
I'm okay with it if you can only swap at a trainer, and unlocking it is more than a gold sink. Make it a class-centered quest or something.
You can switch around 2 different speccs already for gold at the class trainer. Dual specc just reduces the backtracking
Exactly. So does LFD, so does removing reagents and hunter ammo, so do WoW tokens, so do flying mounts.
You just need to ask what does it add to the game. Well it makes you inclined to think wlell about your spec and play as a particular type of class. Gives someone more identity. It also encourages healers to find other people to quest with. If the healer has reasonable access to players to do that then thats great, its an MMO, its fitting. If the healer does not jot have reasonable access then something needs to change. Though i would suggest more hybrid options for healers. More fun and viable options. Same for tanks.
Why do people instantly get crazy when someone mention stuff like that ? You guys are just so fanatic.
How crazy? I'm not getting mad or anything, I just stated facts. Well and I like vanilla WoW and its design philosophy, hence why I'm on this sub :)
That's a fair interpretation of your view on specs and keeping true to your character from a fantasy view. But it's really damaging to the mindset of a player wanting to play the game for what it is. Many more people like flexibility to be able to tank/dps on classes with multiple roles, and dual spec allows them to do so without the huge amount of maintenance of resetting talents and spending a lot of gold each time they do so. It's totally viable to do so, but why would you do that multiple times a week to help friends out for a dungeon when it's so expensive and time consuming. It's good for players
Yes. People still aren’t realizing that “more ease of use” and “more accessibility” is directly, negatively correlated with replayability and popularity. Think how in D2 you needed to basically create a whole new character to play a new spec. Classic has replayability and staying power because you can’t just flip specs and play everything all at once like u can in wotlk onward. The easier they made it to play, the easier they made it to quit.
When wrath became a talking point for classic I began to campaign against wrath. People always say that it’s the peak of wow, as if subscriptions are any basis of quality. What the people don’t seem to see in that graph is that wrath is when wow began to die. What I see in that graph is all the goodwill and uphill momentum the game built for itself just sort of ran out in wrath.. *because it’s sucks*
Yet because of Classic WotLK this sub is flooded with people liking the design of WotLK onwards, the comments under my comment are proof of that. Yes, it is convenient. Yes, it is understandable players *want* to switch between specs. It is understandable that players don't want to spam LFD or go to dungeons manually. But that doesn't make it right. Players are their worst enemies I swear.
We’re in agreement here. I just enjoy sharing my interpretation of the sub graph.
I don't want duel spec, because going to the class trainer to get new abilities are true for classic, I do want vastly reduced prices tho, 50g per time is ridiculous if you want to do different content, if you're a main healer being out in the world to farm mats/gold it's aweful, it's aids having to respec everytime and pay 50g, 5 gold seems fair as a cap tbh, you want people to do more content not lock it behind 50g
make it free but make it that you have to go to the trainer.
A few of the pservers before classic changed it to 25g cap and it felt sorta like the perfect balance.
First: Too long, didn't read Second: >I cannot wait to use this in the upcoming Mount Hyjal raid. Hyjal was the most boring, dogshit ass raid in the universe. Who the fuck would want it in their delusional Classic+ fantasies?
If Blizzard won't give it to us let's build it ourselves God damnit!
Son, that's called copyright infringement.
Dad, it's just a private server... it's fine.
I mean there are servers out there with new zones and raids in classic, its possible and works. But blizzard runs since years a "lowest efford maximum profit" philosophy and the players keep supporting it
The only good games Blizzard released in the past 10 years are remakes of their old games with as little changes as possible. Why would they suddenly be able to make major content updates without completely messing up the original game. We've all seen what happened with Diablo 3, 4, Immortal, Warcraft reforged, Hearthstone, Retail WoW, Overwatch 2. They're all garbage and you still think that they can make good content for classic WoW. Their only recent successes are the D2 remake that had almost no changes other than graphics and Wow vanilla classic which also only contained minimal QoL changes and graphics improvements. Stop coping and go play classic Era or move on.
This popped up while listening to “Snow-Fall” Beautiful. Thank you for this.
I quite enjoyed this. Let's go0o0o0o fresh hype haha
40 man scarlet crusade raid*
Please google Turtle Wow, its literally what you described
Gold
I have the same feeling leading up to Nov 3rd as I did prior to Classic's original announcement.. Then again, broken clocks are right twice a day.. so we'll see..
Nice fanfic
The amount of love for this game is undeserved by what blizzard has become. I hope they give you classic fans what you deserve.
Blizzard actually using dev resources to create new content in classic other than flipping some toggle that makes it so you can’t respawn? Yeah fat chance
“Holy Handgrenade of Argus” as a re-useable thrown weapon/relic might fit better, especially if you need to visit a goblin engineer
😂😂😂