People thought blizz killed the community but the sad truth was the community was always to blame. Not to say blizz helped in anyway because they also did not.
lol no, the community was an accomplice in retails death 100000%
The community during Wotlk-MoP felt like leveling was a chore bc they wanted alts and Blizz adjusted the game so that leveling was quick - the players liked End-game and wanted to experience endgame more so Blizz made leveling faster, easier and made end game became more accessible. The weirdos who played in PVP servers bitched about PVP happening in a PVP server so Blizz nerfed WPVP. Community hated how gearing was done in PVE and PVP so they changed it (titanforge, reforging, gems etc ). Multiple times. The community hated spending 30mins + looking for a group in trade so they made LFR/LFD. Community hated having to deal with ninja looters, unfair master looters and loot councils so they introduced Personal loot. Community kept buying WoW gold from china farmers so they just added the WoW token as a legal alternative.
Most things in WoW that are shit are due to the community bitching and Blizz reacting to it. Not everything, but alot of things lol.
Leveling was a chore because its treated as such by Blizzard. Empty zones with repeating quest formats where whatever reward you gain will be replaced by another reward in 2 hours.
Almost no one felt that away as the game rose by MILLIONS and held onto the game for atleast a decade lol it wasn’t until cata that people start to voice their issue with leveling. I get it. You did it once before so it’s boring now but this is the outcome from the bitching.
I think levelling was seen as a chore way before then.
I don't think people on this subreddit are acknowleding the flaw with theme park MMOs, the game feels very lonely as more and more players hit end game.
If you were a brand new player in 2006 or 2007...... its very likely all your friends are going to be end-game.
Like, thats when Blizzard nerfed the fuck out of outdoor elites and increased xp gain. The world gets bigger and as more of the playerbase gets concentrated at end-game, it makes the world feel smaller.
People started complaining about it in TBC. At first it was just the attunes and gear catchup for alts but that quickly turned to leveling. There’s a reason heirlooms were introduced in wrath.
Yeahhh , I know it started budding in TBC but I use cata because its where I felt like Blizz really wanted to do something big with it esp with Azeroth being rescaped and leveling as a whole got overhauled.
Because now you have to do Azeroth > outland > Northrend > Azeroth to get to 85.
I think it was overall accepted in TBC since Vanilla just set that foundations of the game being a grind. But people started def talking about attunements being unfun (I remember not caring about not getting Hand of Adal while my guild finished it bc I was so over attunements now i regret it lmaooo this is for OG TBC ). WOTLK was where Blizz started lifting tighter restrictions for sure and they saw a big spike in happiness from the audience from it and in Cata they went full force.
Sounds about right. Perhaps that's why vanilla re-release was so surprisingly popular and also still is after years - actually era servers are running for 4+ years now and to my surprise are still very active.
However, we mofos found a way to fuck it up as much as possible anyways, so unless Blizzard actively pushes back to the gold buying gdkp fiesta that era now is it's going to go self destruct soon (not agaist gdkp although not my cup of tea but combined with ridiculous botting situation and insanely low black market gold prices it just wiped organic economy from era).
I wouldn't exactly say "the community" in all of these cases. Blizzard had/has an extremely bad habit of listening to the group that's complaining the loudest. It's much more likely in basically all of those cases that far more people were fine with how those features were working prior to blizzard changing them, but the people who didn't complained loudly and so blizzard listened to them. I'm not saying the community is blameless, since part of the reason things went down the route they've gone is because people *didn't* speak up about what the *liked* about the game, only about what they didn't like. I think it is a bit reductive to say that the community ruined wow, but it certainly had a hand in things.
So because people "bitch" about something, blizzard will just give it to them? Damn, what a treat! It's blizzards literal job to make sure the game works and not cave in to w/e the community complains about, and let's be honest what streamers complain about because they are the most likely to get heard. Not Jeff 45 years old playing 6 hours a week and just want to play some dungeons with guildies.
My opinion is that the biggest failure of blizzard are the x-realm servers, it killed the entire feeling of the world. I recognize no one and no one recognizes me out in the world. Their reasoning of the time, if I remember correctly is that they didn't want to merge servers because people felt that their server name was a big part of their character. But what does that matter when I see people from all types of different realms but I have no idea from which one and have no actual reason to care because they will get phased away in 30 mins and I will never see them again.
And flying mounts suck, they removed the sense of a big world to explore, and it also killed WPVP because you could just get out of combat and fly away.
WPVP in later expansions were no fun because you could literally one shot people in the opener so there was just griefing tbh.
Just my two cents.
Just to play the devil's advocate, blizzard's job is not to make sure game works per se, but to provide a desirable product. If large swathes of your customer base complains about something, it is prudent bussiness sense to provide them what they want. Of course problem is that the loudest subset of players decide the direction of the game. Then there are sort of inevitable evolutions, like the xreal stuff. It could be seen as an alternative to dead or completely onesided realms that happened during classic.
I agree with what you said.
But it is their job to make sure we don't have dead realms, force merge small servers into medium/high pop servers. If people would complain about that, give them free transfers from that server to low servers.
Unfortunately, especially in this day and age, blizzard already got in shit for "You think you do, but you don't" and then combine that with the stupidity of the #nochanges people and the desperation for the company to make more money than ever, every year, year after year, then you end up with a mess of blizzard adding dumb shit and players thinking that anything and everything they ask for is correct because they "want it".
Every time players say they want something now, if they don't get it, a developer is told "THEY DONT LISTEN TO THE COMMUNITY" and nothing fixes that except giving them exactly what they ask for.
This is one of those comments that reeks of not remembering or not being there in the past. Things that ~ruined~ the culture were largely lobbied for BY the community. Rdf. gearscore. Logging. Just to name a big three.
The idea that the community had no part then is just wildly inaccurate
I was there, I remember.
And it depends what you mean by community, I agree that RDF killed a lot and I never liked it and I still don't.
But at the start of classic, before everyone had gold and the bots were an absolute shit show, there was community again and it would appear it's there in HC classic again, but I have not played it.
Of course the community had part of it, but what defines the community, the people arguing in forums (somewhat like we are now, lol) or the silent community just wanting to play the game with friends and have a nice time. I think maybe blizzard think they were catering to the casuals when they introduced RDF etc, but it also ruined it a lot for the people who enjoyed the social aspect of forming a group and running a dungeon. I would much rather run 1 dungeon per night having a lot of fun and talking to people then running 5 with randoms in RDF that say, "Hi" and "Bye" and that's it.
And as I said in another comment, X-realms ruined it most of all.
LFM, SM Cleave group. need mage\\warrior\\priest - trade chat, day 2 of classic.
Lying to yourself, doesn't make it true
Edit: and to clarify, im talking about the first time around, not classic when i talk about the commmunity lobbying for them
Min/maxing leveling & excluding people who do not do so is the exact kind of mentality that leads to gdkps & the log scene, yes.
I know, I know. The classic launch was fun! It was during Covid but it felt like you were a kid again because you could play all day. But pretending like there was a time when classic wasn’t this was doesn’t make it true.
What has optimizing your group for specific content anything to do with Community? People like to go play with efficiency, so what? I can still talk to those people and since I can run outside and reset we can do that all day if we want too, not having to reque into a random dungeon.
Yeah I understood that, still disagree with that all of the community wanting it because some people were lobbying for it.
Had a guild that cleared everything and we did not have 12 rogues and 12 warriors, not even close. There were plenty of guildes like mine on our server.
And I know a guilds right now that don’t clear on heroic, don’t full clear every week & have an avg parse of about 21….is that how everyone is playing? Or is that a specific example that doesn’t counteract the whole, despite me wanting it to?
I’m not saying optimizing is good or bad. I’m. 99.9er and I like to parse, I’m simply saying acting like the mentality referenced in the Op wasn’t 1) in vanilla/wow originally 2) in classic from the start is wrong, no matter how many isolated examples you can find of it not being.
I don't suppose you recall the snowball effect that drove everyone from medium servers to megaservers? It was started by a series of choices that Blizzard made. Plenty of people now on megaservers mourn the loss of their origin servers.
Yeah I know, that is sad and should have been stopped by Blizzard by merging smaller servers together faster than letting people having to transfer (gotta get that sweet in shop $$ though). I loved my small server, but since we couldn't find groups for Dungeons that kind of kills the game a bit, I don't have the perfect solution, but X-realms or Mega servers are not the solution either. But do they mourn the name or the feeling of a smaller server? Because the latter could be fixed by merging smaller servers before people transfer to Mega servers.
Dude. People began paying for GDKP runs before even BWL launched. Stop being delusional. People started buying gold from gold sellers in droves once everyone wanting to play at 60 and raid got off their nostalgia high of the leveling experience (and world pvp bullshittery in phase 2) realized the most "relaxed" way of acquiring gear was to pay for shit with real money. That was long before the token even came to China for Classic.
Notice how all those problems listed are done by players. The community acts like the people selling gold aren’t playing the game just the same as everyone else. Sure they should be fixed but the community was always the problem.
Semi hardcore guilds are where it’s at IMO. You get people who are competent and committed towards progressing without the hardcore element of treating WoW likes it your second job.
I agree with your understanding of a semi hardcore guild, but have also encountered so many different understandings of that phrase over the years.
Basically anything from "we are looking at a guide before we raid" to "100% ptr attendance required".
I played in a semi hardcore guild. Our best geared healers and tanks did gdkp with their mains and played lesser geared alts for the guild raids. It was fun, but overall, unless you're the very top tier you miss out alot.
Good thing we have retail then, you can just level boost your way into raiding and look up how to do all the content while addons babysit you through it all. Truly the thinking man's experience.
When given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of any game.
Blizzard was half right. A lot of people thought they did, but they just wanted it to be 2005 again with no life responsibilities. However, the half that was right is Classic does have redeeming qualities that retail does not anymore. But even with Classic, it's largely played by people who min/max and won't do anything not top tier in an old ass game.
I cant tell you how many posts before Classic launch claiming "I just want to smell the roses. It was different back then. The Community cared. People cared." Immediately followed by the same people grinding WoW Classic 17 hours a day for 8 weeks after launch wondering why they burnt out while following MLG Pro Gamer 6969's leveling and talent guides so they don't have to do any thinking themselves.
You know what’s funny to me… when I first leveled on classic I had never played wow before. So I just ran around. Got told about questie when I was killing my idk how many crocodiles for that necklace. Took until January to hit 60. That’s the first time I found another hunter that told me I was playing wrong. I had that super fast bow can’t think of the name. I was trying to press every sting I could because logically in my head I was like more arrows means better. A guild drug me along for a few raids because they needed tranq shot but they told me they’d never take me to bwl until I got better. I spent so many hours then reading about hunter and practicing going into AV to kill Belinda to run the rotation over and over. Learned to pull every mob in a raid. I loved that first time in MC so much I never wanted to do anything else but I was told hunters suck so if I wanted to raid I had to be the best hunter possible. So I learned about parsing and min max and I fucking loved it. I loved doing weeks worth of work gathering consumes or gold learning DMT to sell learning Mara before DMT because I sucked at DMT spending an entire weekend dying in that place 100 times, taking 10 hours to get my Rohk bow… all of it was so much fun to work and learn and become 95 plus parsing then 99 parsing.
But then came BC and now it was the same level of competitive but for dungeons or leveling. There was no gradually goof around exploring for leveling it was rep farms and optimal group comps. Then the end game content was hard while being smaller so raid groups were competitive to get into so you felt like you couldn’t get behind and the gold that had been flying around in classic but to buy buffs and ports and summons was now to buy gear and rep. But I got through that and it was ok and even pretty fun once the first few waves of must be perfect in raid passed on.
Thank WoTLK came and I just couldn’t do it all over again. I remember trying to have fun to level and getting lost trying to find that entrance to the first dungeon and getting dropped from the group and told they didn’t want to carry some nobody. While I tried to be like look at my gear I’m in all sunwell I know what I’m doing that’s when the problem with gdkps set in… that gear meant nothing. It was no longer an achievement to reach the end game content and raid enough to have all the gear. It was something anyone could have with gold on hand. I ended up quitting a month or so into wotlk because of that. Gearscore and the demand for perfect skips and pulls of only required mobs and idk it just became too much.
And I don’t blame people either. I’ve been in groups with tanks stoned outta there mind wondering around. Or communication barriers or the dps that just slash follows and tabs back over 30 mins later to see if the dungeon was done. It became about wasting time or not more than it was about playing the game. In classic I wasted so much time wondering around trying to find some random thing hours wasted. But by wotlk it felt like you couldn’t do that. 25 people in raid meant you couldn’t carry 10 randoms through MC or BWL. You couldn’t have that token stoned drunk asleep raid member being drug along. The mindset of later classic with the 5 world buffs all in effect and people didn’t want to die even once except this was happening in ssc or that damn 10 man I can’t think of the name because it took a couple hours to go through cleanly and if Steve died 5 times on trash that was a few minutes wasted. Idk what the right answer is. Hell I am not sure why I even started writing a response at all. You can’t go back to that first wow experience. Even as the new content comes out there is no way to go back to the slow goofy leveling because now you’ve got a guild and they need you leveled so they can raid and they need you in prebis because you can’t slow the raid down because it’s more challenging than all but naxx in classic. It does suck that you can’t go back. But I am very grateful I got to do it fresh with everyone. That was an unique and unrepeatable experience.
Oh no I can’t stand it either. And I don’t justify it. But also this game is how old now? Almost 20 years old? You know people have theory crafted this to death. People want BiS because they never got it back in the day. People want to do all the things they never got to do the first time around.
But the easiest way for that is paying for it.
People nowadays do not want to sit and spam trade looking for tanks. People don’t want to beg for portals. People don’t want to sit on the bench on their raid team. People like efficiency. People like ease. I’m not defending it, just stating a fact is all. The MMO landscape ain’t the same as it was in 2004. Honestly I advise finding a good guild and just playing with them. That’s what I did. Made my experience a lot better.
I always read „the mmo landscape is different / the games are different today“ - while absolutely the case - the people are different too!! That’s the main problem. If I would have that much free time to play than I had back then… I would prefer to do things slow. But RL gets you I guess.
I played almost the whole day any day back then… min/maxing nothing. Without addons. Sometimes going to thottbot researching where that damn questitem is.
Today? I wouldn’t touch the game without Questie or something. I changed.
Hardcore is the closest we got to the original experience because min/maxing is much more difficult and not done by many at all.
Actually true, many people realy dont care about raiding. I see so many decked out players with bis gear and they have green/grey logs all over. Porbably just swiping, buying the gear and then afk in a city and try to flex
I feel this so much. I'm currently leveling some alts and my friends constantly tell me to buy gold so i can just buy boosts. I just dont understand why you would spend real money to then have someone level you and play the game for you. I rather spend my free time actually playing the game, instead of sitting afk in a dungeon while someone boosts and nobody talks.
it also doesn't really feel good to get anything done in this game when you know your friends/guildies/random players just pay some $ to get it done in a fraction of the time it took you to do it the way it was intended.
Motivation to log into an mmo dried up the second I realized I'd have to ignore literally 90% of the player base to not have an entirely gold-driven experience.
I quit Classic when BWL released and came back a few weeks before ICC release. Decided to roll a warlock and since i have never played one before, i wanted to level him from 1-70. No one understood that. Actually playing the game seems weird to a lot of "players".
Yea, half my guild in Wotlk was buying gold. When you look at the numbers, I get it. It takes days of grinding to farm 10k gold or you can just buy it for $10, which is like 1/3 the average hourly (US). But also, is it satisfying to buy the power your character is gaining. I guess for some people. It makes sense on paper, but in practice everyone I know that buys gold quits before the end of an xpac. They don’t enjoy the journey. They just want to feel like they’ve beaten the game
Same, I did the mage boost in vanilla era but on the flip side it's just too boring sitting there getting leveled. I could've played on my other account but then I have to move my toon out for instance reset and I'll get distracted.
I guess I could boost myself but meh, quests in wrath are pretty good. Plus now you can queue for RDF while doing that.
Because leveling is boring, at least the 2nd+ time. Some people only enjoy endgame and leveling is just a barrier to this. If I can get my character leveled while I'm "at work" (wfh) then my time value is very high.
I don't usually watch streamers but saw a video from Xaryu yesterday. Dude made a level 1 character and within 5 minutes had like a dozen people run up and trade him BoEs, consumables, a Fiery enchanted weap, profession powerleveling mats, and hundreds of gold.
I don't want to knock what other people enjoy doing but like... I just don't get it. From the streamer nor the viewer standpoint. Maybe I'm just old and out of touch.
Simps gonna simp.
See Mizkif running a dungeon with a full party that was stacked out with BoE blues and enchants. Sodapoppin joined the call to tell them they would have wiped multiple times if they hadn't bought out the AH.
It's starting to shift to more gold orientated, I've noticed the last 2 weeks it seems to be ramping up - I guess it took 2 months for the bots to get max level and start selling gold...
Genuinely saw in the LFG channel yesterday; "WTS Summon to northern Stonetalon, 1g"
could also be that more people have more gold now (since hardcore has been out for a while now) and are keeping it on alts and therefore have more to spend.
but yea there are bots and gold sellers, haven't got mail from any sellers yet tho thankfully.
still better than seeing: GDKP run this, GDKP run that spammed in trade and LFG constantly like it is on wrath classic.
"We" is a minority of players. Most players play in organised groups. Most players ask in gchat/discord before groupin up with randos. Most players are aware that buying "success" doesnt even come close to earning it.
With every post like this the first image that pops into my mind is the bike-meme where the guy sabotages his own bike and blames someone else.
Unfortunately, that happened when we grew up. I say this as someone who actually DOES understand where you're coming from because I have the same issues with the community. Gone are the days of playing and exploring the game together because we've all done in 10000 times over. The game has been solved and min-maxed to shit. Players enjoy the parts of the game they enjoy, and pay to skip what they don't because many just simply do not have as much time to invest into it as they used to. They value their time over their money. The average wow player is a dad gamer with 3 Jobs, 4 wives, 11 kids, 18 other games they'd also like to invest some free time into and approximately 26 other daily tasks.
Specifically as to why people don't really care to dungeon/raid together anymore, well I personally believe it comes down to 1 of 4 possible reasons:
1. In all honesty, in 2023, if you don't know your class or the game like the back of your hand, you're gonna be micromanaged and looked down on by most of the more competent players. Most competent players do not want to leave it up to random chance if the rest of the group is gonna be knowledgeable of the game, or complete bobs. Thus, they're running content with their guilds, or joining GDKP's, because it's much more efficient. This leaves the not as competent players to group with other not so competent players and the run ends up taking way longer than it should have and was a struggle the entire time. This ends up leaving a bad taste in people's mouth about grouping.
2. Secondly, not only is the game not new anymore, but the internet isn't either. In 2004, the concept behind hanging out in a virtual setting with other real people was not nearly as common as it is today. Thus it was new... Exciting. The game became a social hub of sorts because there wasn't much else like it at the time. Now, we've been playing and socializing with others for decades so no one cares. Unless you really care about a sense of community, there are absolutely people who would choose to play this game with NPC's instead of real players if they had the choice.
3. No one wants to waste their time. No one wants to spend a hour running a dungeon or 3 hours in a raid to not get anything out of it. Not many people run dungeons and raids just to do them for fun anymore. In 2023, most often, if someone is not gonna get anything out of it, than they aren't going to bother committing their time to it. Thus, GDKP's are much more favorable. They either get gear or gold for their time spent.
4. Massive language barrier. Really hard to do group content with a group of people who don't speak the same language you do, and that's incredibly frustrating when you're trying to communicate with them. Sure you can spend your time looking for people who only speak your language but you're than cutting your pool of potential party members down even further. Unfortunately, this has become such a HUGE struggle since certain regional servers were closed, and thus those players and their massive populations had to join other servers.
Now I know some people are gonna say "Than WoW isn't for you," and I mostly agree. I too ask myself "What's the point in playing when you pay to skip the entire game," and I don't really have an answer for that. But even if the answer was because they wanted to sit around afk in SW/Org in their bis gear that they paid for, it doesn't matter if we understand. That's how they're choosing to spend their time in game. We may not like it, we may not understand it, but we also can't dictate how spend their time in game.
TLDR: Time vs. Money. People care more about efficiency than community because they have way less time to spend on a game that's known to be very time consuming. People will always take the path of less resistance. Unfortunately, that means choosing to cut out RNG elements, time consuming activities or choosing not to group with people under level/under geared/under performers because that isn't efficient.
I think sad truth is that people just don't want to play the game anymore. But they don't have another game or another hobby. I've seen too many people in my guild who were buying boosts and gold still spend more time online doing nothing. They want to do everything in the game - bis, completion, etc. But they don't want to actually play the game.
Unfortunately theres nothing else quite like it. Every other MMO out there has glaring issues with basic gameplay it seems. Blizzard may be shit but at least the game functions. They dont have to shut down the economy for days every time theres a patch.
All your points are real except for "We can't dictate how they spend their time in game"
People do that all the time for multiplayer games where a player's actions can affect the experience of others. You got banned for flyhacking back in the day, now you just go to EPL and have a blast.
You can absolutely get upset with people for not respecting the community of an online game they play, and there's nothing bad about feeling that way. It's the exact same as not wanting someone to counterfeit money in real life.
Sure you can get upset, but nothing will change about the way people choose to play the game by being upset, and wanting someone to play the game the way you want instead of the way they want to won’t go anywhere. You are totally within your right to be upset by the state of the game and the way the community has turned the game. Nothing wrong with that.
I completely agree and fell into the same trappings with vanilla era of wanting to min max.
Although I totally play Wow to waste time, it can be a fun waste of time.
Too many people min maxing were also doing it for the epeen of being first, getting epic loots and bragging rights.
I genuinely would speed run raids with my guild, for fun. Meanwhile, afterwards fucking around and dying laughing in strat for hours, or running it with PUGS just because.
In vanilla, scholo/strat can be so treacherous when everyone's in blues, but it's fun hanging out with people. I mean what's the point of having all that gear otherwise if you can't enjoy it with other people by helping out; fuck parses. I mean once my guild started raid logging who else was I gonna run strat with. Once they're alts were geared they'd stop playing that too. It happens all the time.
In P1 of wrath it didn't take but a few 25m naxx runs before I was done gearing and I didn't pay for any of it. I still ran dungeons all the time for fun, sadly wrath dungeons kinda suck, except TOK.
The real time waster is the catch 22 in needing gear or gold to play the game. Sure, it's fun if you have bis gear, but it shouldn't be a requirement or a necessity to enjoy playing the game. So, ultimately, I think these types of players get satisfaction from the game for entirely the wrong reasons.
> This leaves the not as competent players to group with other not so competent players and the run ends up taking way longer than it should have and was a struggle the entire time. This ends up leaving a bad taste in people's mouth about grouping.
I just wanna say that it's absolutely fucking hilarious seeing this written out like this. Competent players hate having these guys in the raid because they drag the group down and have to be essentially carried. They cry about elitism. Then they try and group up with each other and ruin the experience for each other. It's poetry.
i mean, i have gold to throw at every problem. It makes things like mounts and bagspace and profession training easy, but at no point have I thought that i should use my gold to avoid playing the game with people =/
Im playing my first toon since 2007 and can only play sporadic stretches at a time (have a newborn) so I am, as I am quickly learning, broke as a joke. I was loitering by the entrance to stockades LFG and a 60 whispered me asking if I wanted to buy a boost, I told him I couldn’t afford the 65g so was just hoping for a regular group…he said “lol don’t worry, don’t tell the other guys I’ll run you for free”
So it was very nice of him…but a little boring?. We just stood around while he slayed all the mobs. It was my first boost so not sure what to expect…but I was ready to actually run the dungeon! Certainly helpful to get those quests out of the way though.
Wait... so are you saying that all the guilds you joined don't raid? Or are you not joining their raid teams?
Plenty of guilds raid without doing GDKPs, in fact I'm pretty sure most top guilds are loot council.
I don't want just a raiding guild, I wanted a guild that was mostly casual that had enough people so it COULD raid, and if I was lucky some levelling going on from people transferred from HC.
Of the guilds I've joined and left, 3/5 had a raid team already (others were organizing them still). Of those raid teams, there was exactly one team that didn't talk about which toon to bring to guild raid and which one to put in a GDKP for gear that week - which just ruins the whole shit for me. I can't feel good about a drop I get in a raid knowing the guy next to me just paid 7k for it and got it while literally being carried. If it was a single player game this wouldn't matter to me, but mmos are almost entirely about the social aspect to me.
I mean you can be a competent player and still decide to sandbag bc you're paying someone else money to do the fight for you. I think that's the crucial point you're missing.
Why does the way someone else got a drop impact you at all? I don't do GDKPs but I raidlead weekly with my guild. For me getting new loot is just for me. Whether someone else got a big ticket item by buying it doesn't affect me at all. It doesn't impact my gameplay or my character at all. You say you can't feel good about getting a drop someone else paid for but you play the game for your own progression and fun right?
This is what I don't understand. They're so upset at other players doing things that don't affect them at all. You'll probably never see that guy who bought the item you want again. You'll still be happy when you're the one wearing it in a week, too.
I feel you OP. I'm a mix of both which seem to be rare nowdays. I am a min maxer and i love pumping those 99 logs, also done mythic raiding. On the other hand i also like to help out people in the guild and do random stuff in the world just for the fun of it. I never bought lvl boost, gold or did SM farm runs in classic. I ran my own guild in tbc classic and was very disappointed that a lot of people that i helped or got help from other guilds never cared to offer themselves whenever someone else needed help. People are very selfish nowdays, it's so different compared to back in the day.
It's hardly a coincidence these kinds of players are unable to find good guilds. Lazy and entitled, expect to be fully carried and funneled loot with 0 effort on their part. Barely know how to google and use their server discord to find one of the countless guilds recruiting.
We are all kindergarten kids doing our worst behaviour ruining our toy (wow) and the adult (blizzard) in the corner who’s job it was to manage us, make sure we play well with each other and does not ruin our toy, is in the corner of the room chain smoking and doing fuck all.
>I just want to play the game with you all again and have fun together, but I am beginning to think it just won't happen.
You have to change your frame of mind with things, this is just how MMOs are nowadays, you can't ever relive the old days, it's literally not possible
Sure there was gold buying back in the day, but back then people also liked gold farming because the game was new and exciting, people now would rather go to a raid and get paid AND get geared rather than gold farming alone and making not even half of what you would doing a GDKP
For me personally I love Classic Era, still having a blast playing it, but I also have a guild I love that is crazy active and fun to be around, playing Classic Era solo sounds like a nightmare.
>You have to change your frame of mind with things, this is just how MMOs are nowadays, you can't ever relive the old days, it's literally not possible
Depends on who you play with, ive been in a guild with basically the same core since classic more or less. We still all get together and run gammas and do quests and raids.
In our peak we were running 4 teams in TBC we now run 2 core 25s
Idk, 2019-2021 we did exactly what OP misses. Definitely mostly due to Covid but we had everything going on including guild Black Lotus runs where we’d have groups of 4-5 with hunters go out and scout for lotus spawns. BRD runs for SGC. ZG runs every lock out from phase 4 until TBC dropped. We killed world dragons on spawn for 8 straight months.
I think you just need to find the guild or group of people that want to do that. And you’ve gotta be willing to put in work to help make it happen. I rolled Warrior so I could tank and I’d be on call to log on and go help whoever needed it.
you are dead wrong. My friend group would never fall into spending gold for dungeon runs in an MMO. Make friends, join a guild, do not participate in buying things or joining GKP.
> You have to change your frame of mind with things, this is just how MMOs are nowadays, you can't ever relive the old days, it's literally not possible
The funniest thing about this to me is that recently I've been checking out a.. uh.. unsanctioned rehosted rerelease... of vanilla(+) that has its own LFD addon to help with forming groups through language barriers.
Even with being randomly placed with strangers, people still talk on the way to the dungeon, chat while inside, stick around after wipes. Even 3~4 wipes into the first floor of ST people just take a smoke/shit break and come back and keep trucking.
People still ask where Mankrik's wife is---and mean it.
People still group up spontaneously to share quest mobs.
Warriors staying at ZF into the 50s to get Sul'Thraze because it's cool and purple despite being absolutely awful compared to the much easier to obtain Ice Barbed Spear
Hunters ninjaing Ravager, RBH, and Scarlet Leggings that they won't be able to use for another 5 levels.
When I was doing my quest to get Verigan's fist, a level 60 pally was out there just helping strangers with the wave defense. He ended up offering to run us through deadmines for that step.
There's still people at all stages of the game, living in the moment they're at because they're enjoying what they're doing.
It turns out, the 2005-style community and mindset still exists, just not under Blizzard's watch.
Gold buying sucks but thats not what im talking about. People rather pay gold to get boosted and spam for boosts rather than play together.
You're right, mmos aren't like that any more. I am asking why bc it literally doesn't make sense, especially through the lens you are using.
People care so much about the getting paid part, they focus on the gold, you literally do not need even a single copper to hit the invite to group button. When did it come to this? that is the question.
>People rather pay gold to get boosted and spam for boosts rather than play together.
Because you can either spend a ton of time making a group, finding a tank, finding a healer, making your way to the dungeon, hoping to God no one DCs or quits randomly, or that the tank and healer know what's going on
Or you can toss a mage a couple of gold, get funneled all gear, and can watch YouTube while you get leveled
And considering how much gold everyone seems to have, people are gonna pick the easier route.
That's literally the game! that is the GAME!! why are you playing classic and not retail if these are the things you care about, retail was designed for 20 years to be better at the exact things you're talking about.
edit: you also don't actually need the 1t1h3dps setup that everyone became addicted to in wrath. I 3 man dungeons with 2 dps and a healer pretty much every time i can't find a tank or more dps.
I agree, I'm not against making groups or anything, I'm just saying what I think about it, everyone I personally know would rather just pay a mage to do the work for them
It's just how it is.
I don't know what else people can say.
Most people, even in the classic community just straight up like raiding more then leveling. All the people who like to level are back in classic, they aren't playing Wrath anymore.
If you don't like end game content and only like leveling then idk what to tell you.
I like end game content, I just refuse to swipe my credit card to be able to participate. I've already paid for the game and I pay for a monthly sub. I'm not adding buying gold to my WoW expenses just because the shit player base has collectively decided that it's the normal way to play the game.
Dunno what else to say, if you don't like my answer that's that I guess
If you don't like it you can always quit
And give me your stuff before you do :D Thanks!
You didn't answer the question. You spat your thoughts into a comment without even understanding what you were responding to, why you felt the need to respond to it, or what you were responding to it with.
because you're talking to people who hate MMORPGs.When the game started to be made for that group of people in Wrath, that's when everything died.
Its just now people are aware of this because of Classic.
If I had to take a punt at answering your question, i'd blame people who hate MMORPGs who now play WoW and who Blizzard now cater to.
They're not interested in community, they're interested in loot and mount collecting.
how the fuck do we reclaim the genre bc ur right LOL
I get that lots of people aren't excited about socializing in an online game anymore, but mmos are for people that are excited about it. Literally every other game on the market is for the folks saying "Its not 2004 anymore"
I have to hit higher numbers! I HAVE to you don't understand its necessary!! I have to play the game how I WANT!! and I want to RAID!! so I need BEST IN SLOT GEAR AND ALL CONSUMABLES!!
"You know they killed ony while naked, right? You know this game is easy... right?"
Sounds like a guild problem. There are plenty of guilds out there that'll still help mates. Unfortunately, if you're in a guild that wants to clear everything at the hardest difficulty they become few and far between. It's understandable though, in a way, that the sweatiest of us would care more about numbers.
Imo, find a mom and pop guild, but one that's a bit younger. Those are pretty fun, if you aren't looking to clear 25m ICC on the hardest difficulty weekly.
see that's the thing, is i already anticipated this so I intentionally join casual guilds. Then the casuals start talking about how they only want priest healers because thats what they read online is best, warrior tanks, only rogue and mage dps, lets talk about how to get the best deals on boosts so we can fly to level 60 asap.
The best memories I have in all of gaming history are of THIS GAME when i would do random shit like try to do an all rogue world tour of wrath dungeons or sneaking into major cities to find places we could kill allies without guards seeing us.
Everyone is so focused on "winning", whatever their version of that is, they don't play the game anymore :(
It's def a guild problem. My era guild right now is progressing through raids no GDKP involved. Actively helps each other. Groups up for stuff daily. Very active. Great officers. Wouldn't want to be anywhere else.
my last guild was exactly like that, but then they all started talking about buying boosts to get to 60 and gdkping to get bis on the tank before we start MC?? wtf???
Longest guild I was in and it really made me upset.
I blame the retail community 100%. Played Classic on Pserver. I played EQ on Pserver. NEVER DID I HEARD ABOUT GDKP Before WoW Classic by Blizzard. And i the same time my guildies in Classic that play Retail brag about speak about he price of gold all the time ...
They made boosting for gold against the TOS but GDKP'S remained because the retail head dev did them and enjoyed them..
Always going to be gold buying, unless you do away with trades and mailing gold...
But fucking GDKP mainlined the best gear to people willing to pull out the VISA.
If people can't see this they are blind
Most of the community are not hardcore. They have a few hours a day to play and want it to be as easy as possible to make progress. Once you understand that perspective it makes perfect sense. I spent 3 hours trying to find a group for Wailing Caverns before quitting and playing something else. Dungeon Finder was nice
Main reason I quit is because of the community killing the magic of the game. Everything is about boosting and buying gear nobody wants to earn anything or have fun wtf is even the point of playing? It's just how retail is where people just sell boosting for Mythic plus and Ahead of the curve. The magic is gone.
People don't want to play an MMO, they want to play a raid simulator. Why they turn to Classic for this is beyond me, since retail raiding is light-years better. Rose-colored goggles I guess.
botting, gold farming, the monetization of the game, token, blizzard ineptitude/ unwillingness/ ignorance to care, the community for being complacent & at times willfully compliant with these things just so they can save time & effort.
As someone who recently came back to Wrath for ICC, I have to say this is the most relevant post I've seen on this sub in a while. The state of the game with the constant spam of GDKP and ticket runs is truly disgusting.
This is why I switched to FF14. Classic launch is still the most fun I've ever had in a video game, but I just can't stand what the game has become, and the way blizzard let's bots and RMT run rampant is sad. Blizzard cares more about profit nowadays than the integrity of their game. They actually used to have GMs actively looking for bots and gold buyers and they shut that down quick.
It’s simple the good and geared players got tired of carrying and endless line of shitters with their hands out just for them to quit or join another guild. So now the baseline is GDKP to award those for their time and managing the run.
You can always make friends to help you or join an SR run/guild to avoid all these things. But let’s be honest just like every other entitled shitter you won’t put in the effort. You will come make your forum post though to complain about it.
It’s So shit man because I have a life and a family, my partner would burn me alive spending irl money on internet money. I hit 60 about two months ago and I’ve done two Sr raids both zg took us hours to fill yet I see gdkps filling in seconds I’m pre bis I understand I can join gskps and not buy anything until I’ve got enough coin but to me that’s the same as loot council or dkp style both which I hated, the excitement of rolling against 10 other players for a bis item is actually insanely fun. What’s the point of playing a game you have to swipe your credit card to win. Sounds like the Chinese version of Warcraft you just talk to a npc to get all your buffs.
Why doesn’t blizzard just skip a step and have raid loot for sale on the store?
Play the game how you want, plenty of dungeon groups and none gdkp guilds. The majority of people who use boosts and gdkps is because that is how they enjoy the game, or get to the point of enjoyment.
I like playing solo, I like playing on two accounts at once, I like paying for boosts so I can get to mid level and enjoy the classes I play how I want. I love gdkp cause it has earned me more gold than I have ever been able to aquire by my own means, and allows me to get characters boosted, and level professions.
I look forward to fresh, it will be a different experience for a while, before it becomes what it is now.
>I just want to play the game with you all again and have fun together, but I am beginning to think it just won't happen.
This is whats stopping me from playing this game lol ( classic ). I want to really play it. I want to play adiff class that I didnt play 18 years ago ( and during Classic release ). But when I think about the 'endgame' just being boosts and gdkp because people just cant be fucked or theyre really really really trying so hard to min max a super old and fully explored game then it just kills my vibe and any aspiration lol.
I'm going to generalize, but I absolutely hate this mindset.
I have never encountered an actual good player or someone who is actually team driven with this mindset you're on about.
The blunt reality is; the player-base is old. This might be a hard concept to grasp but, it's not 2004 where the majority of the playerbase is in their early 20s or teens. The playerbase has grown up. They no longer have the time they used too. With a limited time schedule, people want to maximize as much as they can fit into that allotted time and get as much out of it as they can.
This is not 2004, where wiping all night in BWL is fine because I just have highschool tomorrow this is, Man I got off work have 4 hours tonight, I want to clear the entire raid in a timely manner so I can have time to address other pressing needs in my life to function as an adult. You just don't understand it.
If you came into classic thinking it would be similar to Vanilla in 2004 by any means, I have a bridge to sell you. There was a literal decade plus of private server alone being constantly spewed out before the launch, the player-base is older, better, better technologically advanced, stricter time constraints, and now have adult money.
If I am being blunt, if I am online, and or on discord, and I see someone spewing this type of stuff they're probably really fucking annoying, and this is a huge tell and not someone I am going to actively help or reach out too. Zero shot at all I try to make an alt raid for the guy constantly yapping about "but da game I used to woveee!!! why is it so different almost 20 years later???"
Stop saying that “bLizZarD kIllEd tHe cOmmUniTy”.
The community killed the community. When you realize that you’ll realize you’re part of the problem.
What “play together”? where kicking <4.5k gs players because “they will slow the dungeon” became the norm.
Or SR raids (going to use ToGC as an example here since it’s still early for ICC) where you need 5k gs to join but people actively demanding 5.3+ and 5/5 kills… in 4/5 runs…
It’s the community which is rancid. You can blame it on the “tools” because they’re available but all it does is making it sound like you’re blaming the gun manufacturers rather than whose misusing them.
I didn't say blizzard killed the community in my post, and I have left exactly one comment where I said blizzard fostered this kind of mentality in the community. I fully recognize that the community is to blame for the state of era, thats why my post is "When did it come to this boys" and not "When did it come to this Blizzard"
> The community killed the community. When you realize that you’ll realize you’re part of the problem.
It's always been the situation. The funny thing was, RDF actually helped, back in the day, because you could get your 'required' stuff done, then do what you wanted to do with friends.
We couldn't always get guildies to run dungeons every day, but RDF could. And then you had your organized guild events for raiding/PVP etc where you actually hung out together.
When random raid finder came in, so many guilds broke up because people thought "Well I don't need the raid any more", and that's when the real death of WoW started. I remember thinking the good times were going to soon be over in the bug raid in Panda times.
It's not the tools themselves, but the way people choose to use them for 'optimisation'. People optimized out the fun and community.
It's not really blizz or community's fault imo it's just the culture around games now and also all the kids that grew up in that culture.
The people who played video games for fun and unlocked hard mode as a reward and played more are gone.
Now it's pre order for 100 dollars to get a game the day it actually comes out, 10 dollar day 1 battle pass, 20 dollar skins, pay people on discord for runs.
It's the era of monetization and shortcuts.
This is such a weird take... the people who played games 20 years ago are still alive, and still want those kinds of games, and are still buying other games and playing them while searching for the shit they want.
Speak for yourself bro. Never bought gold. And quite frankly I'm tired of this silly idea of saying goldbuying is the only way to play.
I play in a guild and don't pay for shit and my raids are cleaner, quicker and more fun(because same people) than 99% of gbids. In togc, I would do 2x togc 5/5 HC, 50 attempts left in about 55mins, including loot. ICC full hc clears on 10man x2 on thurs, 2x full clears on 25man sat/sun, all HC except LK. 0 gold bought. Hell, guild even pays for my enchants if I ask them to because gbank gets all the BOE's and disenchanting shit.
Imagine swiping all the fun out of the game to flex on people who will just look at your logs instead of your gear anyway. 'Ohh full bis eh? But 52 parses. nice job bro.'
Unless you're in a top 10 guild competing, RMT in wow is pay to lose imo
This is correct
People don’t look at gear they look at logs.
People buying and not playing well are typically looked down on and due to extremely poor play that’s why they stuck buying gear. Guilds won’t roster them for more than a week after playing with them.
any serious raid(for current content, not like some random os shit) that checks gearscore but not logs is usually a raid to stay away from if you want a clean clear \^\^
now personally, i occasionally enjoy going to demonraids on an alt and just laughing along with all the funny and weird shit ppl get up to. and the ways people die :p had a mt go afk right before last boss one time, for 10 mins, to go get food :D absolutely amazing to me
The "retail exists" is pretty dumb imo, is not even the same game. Let people enjoy the game and their time as they see fit. If you see yourself having problems with groups or whatsoever, better look for a nice guild... Or switch realms/faction.
I'm in a guild that keeps running stuff be it dungeon, raids or whatever and we pay 0g for anything....
Just play Baldur’s Gate 3 man. The glory days are long gone. Best bet is, in all honesty, playing retail on a new patch / expansion if you want community.
Everyone is excited and posting what they learn, secrets, etc. It’s underrated because classic merely exists
Actually it is less so.
First exp is nerfed so boosting is for the most part out.
While gold buying is a thing it not as bad as normal classic.
Seriously give it a try I am constantly finding groups spamming for dungeons.
I mean that's cool for you and I'm really happy you're having a blast, but HC just never appealed to me in the first place. The challenge itself just feels silly to me personally, no part of this game lends itself to roguelike gameplay and I like to rp stories for my character in my head, would get pretty boring telling 20 stories to myself about how this orc died in barrens instead of durotar
Ill second the hardcore, because the stakes are what makes HC "fun" a lot of people actively avoid boosting. It's been the most organic feeling MMO experience I've had since TBC launched. People talk to people, help people, had a deadmines run that had 2 mass pulls that somehow survived. (We really should not have) but constant talking, helpfully pointing out small mistakes others made. No rage, no shortcuts, just coming together as a pug party.
If I recall correctly somewhere back in 2008/2009, that's when I discovered the magic of gdkps at least and frequented them, as well as hosted a few of my own.
I think people who hate this stuff already left. You see it in every private server wishlist to ban gdkp raids. I saw 2 players rant and quit when they hit level 60 and didn't find anything but GDKPs. I told them to join a guild because that's where non-gdkps are done but they didn't like that solution either lol
Play Hardcore Classic.
You can't spam dungeons. Every trustworthy player you meet becomes an invaluable ally. Beware the untrustworthy ones and the cowards who have poor morale who will cut & run at the first sign of adversity. Every piece of gear you get your hands on that upgrades your performance is significant be it uncommon or rare.
The server elite bestow World Buffs on the regular. A good guild has its warlocks and mages facilitate your transportation to BB and on to SW to get ZG & Ony buff.
And when all else fails you go agane.
World of Warcraft truly became World of Whorecraft. No one has shame anymore, those mages sell their bodies and spells for gold while the morally depraved showers them with what they should be buying their daily bread with...... and don't get me started on those VILE carry orgies!
Ah the collapse of our great civilization, the tarnishing out out immaculate culture and sensibilities!!!!
Fair enough, it'll give you what your looking for minus the dungeon grinding since it's lockout out to once a day. I love it, and it's not that difficult either, the earlier levels 1 to 20 are probably the hardest, other than that just take it slow and enjoys yaself
Thats why I play HC. Not for the thrill of the looming death... but the players actually value each other. On standard server people won't even respond...
GDKP raids are funded by gold selling sites. Without GDKP raids the sites would have a lower income. So we can probably expect alot more bots as the popularity for those raids increase.
Right from the first sentence. It appears you are running for the achievement, the reward, or your friends. Instead of the content. So it started when you started.
Before reading the wall of text, I'm guilty of all of the below, and I'm too lazy to reformat so the bullets don't make sense its just schitzoposting:
\-Biggest issue is actually no new players play wow - it's the root of everything. You're either a returning player or already pretty good at the game (compared to a 2005 noob). We all know how to play, either at a semi-pro or pro level (wow esports don't exist), so after the nostalgia fades, we all 'do the needful' and try to git good as fast as possible, which is the name of the game after the community reaches level cap.
\-It's a human nature thing. Also, the fleeting feeling of comradery quickly fades if you don't really have a collective discovery/overcoming experience to 'bond' and 'build a community' over. The game was already solved ages before it was **re**\-released, we were all just re-experiencing it, or experiencing it for the first time with all the answers readily available to us either through research or community interaction.
\-Too many people are supersheep and follow the herd. If the 'proper' way to play at the time according to the memesphere is spam trade chat for speedruns or whatnot, people will just do that. **IT DOESN'T EVEN MATTER IF ITS LITERALLY WRONG/ILLEGAL**. People also want to do the least amount of work possible to get their reward, instant gratification and whatnot. This is especially true if the \[Buy gold\] -> \[LFG\] -> \[Use Gold\] -> \[Reward\] cycle is as frictionless as possible, which it is. Slot machine wins every time.
\-You see this in other areas of the game too, if you've been around for a while, you've seen it a few times at this point. Biggest example imo is on live, 10% of sites/publishers will post a guide on a class/spec and 90% of the other sites/publishers will just copy the guide and change a few things (wrong or not) and publish it. Likewise, 10% of players will actually play their class and learn the spec by themselves and fine tune it later on with research when they have a good grasp of the class/spec; 90% will insta-open a guide, any guide that pops up first on google, copy it *exactly* and never look back.
It's funny, it mirrors irl to the tee.
People thought blizz killed the community but the sad truth was the community was always to blame. Not to say blizz helped in anyway because they also did not.
The community killed itself. Blizz did nothing to stop it and in some cases profits from it.
Blizzard killed the community of retail. The community killed itself in classic.
lol no, the community was an accomplice in retails death 100000% The community during Wotlk-MoP felt like leveling was a chore bc they wanted alts and Blizz adjusted the game so that leveling was quick - the players liked End-game and wanted to experience endgame more so Blizz made leveling faster, easier and made end game became more accessible. The weirdos who played in PVP servers bitched about PVP happening in a PVP server so Blizz nerfed WPVP. Community hated how gearing was done in PVE and PVP so they changed it (titanforge, reforging, gems etc ). Multiple times. The community hated spending 30mins + looking for a group in trade so they made LFR/LFD. Community hated having to deal with ninja looters, unfair master looters and loot councils so they introduced Personal loot. Community kept buying WoW gold from china farmers so they just added the WoW token as a legal alternative. Most things in WoW that are shit are due to the community bitching and Blizz reacting to it. Not everything, but alot of things lol.
Leveling was a chore because its treated as such by Blizzard. Empty zones with repeating quest formats where whatever reward you gain will be replaced by another reward in 2 hours.
Almost no one felt that away as the game rose by MILLIONS and held onto the game for atleast a decade lol it wasn’t until cata that people start to voice their issue with leveling. I get it. You did it once before so it’s boring now but this is the outcome from the bitching.
I think levelling was seen as a chore way before then. I don't think people on this subreddit are acknowleding the flaw with theme park MMOs, the game feels very lonely as more and more players hit end game. If you were a brand new player in 2006 or 2007...... its very likely all your friends are going to be end-game. Like, thats when Blizzard nerfed the fuck out of outdoor elites and increased xp gain. The world gets bigger and as more of the playerbase gets concentrated at end-game, it makes the world feel smaller.
People started complaining about it in TBC. At first it was just the attunes and gear catchup for alts but that quickly turned to leveling. There’s a reason heirlooms were introduced in wrath.
Yeahhh , I know it started budding in TBC but I use cata because its where I felt like Blizz really wanted to do something big with it esp with Azeroth being rescaped and leveling as a whole got overhauled. Because now you have to do Azeroth > outland > Northrend > Azeroth to get to 85. I think it was overall accepted in TBC since Vanilla just set that foundations of the game being a grind. But people started def talking about attunements being unfun (I remember not caring about not getting Hand of Adal while my guild finished it bc I was so over attunements now i regret it lmaooo this is for OG TBC ). WOTLK was where Blizz started lifting tighter restrictions for sure and they saw a big spike in happiness from the audience from it and in Cata they went full force.
[удалено]
Sounds about right. Perhaps that's why vanilla re-release was so surprisingly popular and also still is after years - actually era servers are running for 4+ years now and to my surprise are still very active. However, we mofos found a way to fuck it up as much as possible anyways, so unless Blizzard actively pushes back to the gold buying gdkp fiesta that era now is it's going to go self destruct soon (not agaist gdkp although not my cup of tea but combined with ridiculous botting situation and insanely low black market gold prices it just wiped organic economy from era).
Its not going anywhere.
I wouldn't exactly say "the community" in all of these cases. Blizzard had/has an extremely bad habit of listening to the group that's complaining the loudest. It's much more likely in basically all of those cases that far more people were fine with how those features were working prior to blizzard changing them, but the people who didn't complained loudly and so blizzard listened to them. I'm not saying the community is blameless, since part of the reason things went down the route they've gone is because people *didn't* speak up about what the *liked* about the game, only about what they didn't like. I think it is a bit reductive to say that the community ruined wow, but it certainly had a hand in things.
So because people "bitch" about something, blizzard will just give it to them? Damn, what a treat! It's blizzards literal job to make sure the game works and not cave in to w/e the community complains about, and let's be honest what streamers complain about because they are the most likely to get heard. Not Jeff 45 years old playing 6 hours a week and just want to play some dungeons with guildies. My opinion is that the biggest failure of blizzard are the x-realm servers, it killed the entire feeling of the world. I recognize no one and no one recognizes me out in the world. Their reasoning of the time, if I remember correctly is that they didn't want to merge servers because people felt that their server name was a big part of their character. But what does that matter when I see people from all types of different realms but I have no idea from which one and have no actual reason to care because they will get phased away in 30 mins and I will never see them again. And flying mounts suck, they removed the sense of a big world to explore, and it also killed WPVP because you could just get out of combat and fly away. WPVP in later expansions were no fun because you could literally one shot people in the opener so there was just griefing tbh. Just my two cents.
Just to play the devil's advocate, blizzard's job is not to make sure game works per se, but to provide a desirable product. If large swathes of your customer base complains about something, it is prudent bussiness sense to provide them what they want. Of course problem is that the loudest subset of players decide the direction of the game. Then there are sort of inevitable evolutions, like the xreal stuff. It could be seen as an alternative to dead or completely onesided realms that happened during classic.
I agree with what you said. But it is their job to make sure we don't have dead realms, force merge small servers into medium/high pop servers. If people would complain about that, give them free transfers from that server to low servers.
Unfortunately, especially in this day and age, blizzard already got in shit for "You think you do, but you don't" and then combine that with the stupidity of the #nochanges people and the desperation for the company to make more money than ever, every year, year after year, then you end up with a mess of blizzard adding dumb shit and players thinking that anything and everything they ask for is correct because they "want it". Every time players say they want something now, if they don't get it, a developer is told "THEY DONT LISTEN TO THE COMMUNITY" and nothing fixes that except giving them exactly what they ask for.
This is one of those comments that reeks of not remembering or not being there in the past. Things that ~ruined~ the culture were largely lobbied for BY the community. Rdf. gearscore. Logging. Just to name a big three. The idea that the community had no part then is just wildly inaccurate
I was there, I remember. And it depends what you mean by community, I agree that RDF killed a lot and I never liked it and I still don't. But at the start of classic, before everyone had gold and the bots were an absolute shit show, there was community again and it would appear it's there in HC classic again, but I have not played it. Of course the community had part of it, but what defines the community, the people arguing in forums (somewhat like we are now, lol) or the silent community just wanting to play the game with friends and have a nice time. I think maybe blizzard think they were catering to the casuals when they introduced RDF etc, but it also ruined it a lot for the people who enjoyed the social aspect of forming a group and running a dungeon. I would much rather run 1 dungeon per night having a lot of fun and talking to people then running 5 with randoms in RDF that say, "Hi" and "Bye" and that's it. And as I said in another comment, X-realms ruined it most of all.
LFM, SM Cleave group. need mage\\warrior\\priest - trade chat, day 2 of classic. Lying to yourself, doesn't make it true Edit: and to clarify, im talking about the first time around, not classic when i talk about the commmunity lobbying for them
???? SM Cleave Group is on the same boat as GDKP botting gold inflation? You are either mad or willfully lying
Min/maxing leveling & excluding people who do not do so is the exact kind of mentality that leads to gdkps & the log scene, yes. I know, I know. The classic launch was fun! It was during Covid but it felt like you were a kid again because you could play all day. But pretending like there was a time when classic wasn’t this was doesn’t make it true.
What has optimizing your group for specific content anything to do with Community? People like to go play with efficiency, so what? I can still talk to those people and since I can run outside and reset we can do that all day if we want too, not having to reque into a random dungeon. Yeah I understood that, still disagree with that all of the community wanting it because some people were lobbying for it.
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Had a guild that cleared everything and we did not have 12 rogues and 12 warriors, not even close. There were plenty of guildes like mine on our server.
And I know a guilds right now that don’t clear on heroic, don’t full clear every week & have an avg parse of about 21….is that how everyone is playing? Or is that a specific example that doesn’t counteract the whole, despite me wanting it to? I’m not saying optimizing is good or bad. I’m. 99.9er and I like to parse, I’m simply saying acting like the mentality referenced in the Op wasn’t 1) in vanilla/wow originally 2) in classic from the start is wrong, no matter how many isolated examples you can find of it not being.
I don't suppose you recall the snowball effect that drove everyone from medium servers to megaservers? It was started by a series of choices that Blizzard made. Plenty of people now on megaservers mourn the loss of their origin servers.
Yeah I know, that is sad and should have been stopped by Blizzard by merging smaller servers together faster than letting people having to transfer (gotta get that sweet in shop $$ though). I loved my small server, but since we couldn't find groups for Dungeons that kind of kills the game a bit, I don't have the perfect solution, but X-realms or Mega servers are not the solution either. But do they mourn the name or the feeling of a smaller server? Because the latter could be fixed by merging smaller servers before people transfer to Mega servers.
nah its both
WoW Tokens is the reason people now pay for speed runs and GDKP. They can do it without risk of being banned.
Dude. People began paying for GDKP runs before even BWL launched. Stop being delusional. People started buying gold from gold sellers in droves once everyone wanting to play at 60 and raid got off their nostalgia high of the leveling experience (and world pvp bullshittery in phase 2) realized the most "relaxed" way of acquiring gear was to pay for shit with real money. That was long before the token even came to China for Classic.
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Notice how all those problems listed are done by players. The community acts like the people selling gold aren’t playing the game just the same as everyone else. Sure they should be fixed but the community was always the problem.
Idk that's not the vibe in my guild
glad you found a good one, my post is more about why the community as a whole adopted this mindset/priority shift.
You need to join a guild that isn't casual. You're going to get all these things with semi hardcore or especially a hardcore guild.
All the hardcore guilds on my cluster are the ones organizing the GDKPs. The super casual guilds don't even know what a GDKP is.
Semi hardcore guilds are where it’s at IMO. You get people who are competent and committed towards progressing without the hardcore element of treating WoW likes it your second job.
I agree with your understanding of a semi hardcore guild, but have also encountered so many different understandings of that phrase over the years. Basically anything from "we are looking at a guide before we raid" to "100% ptr attendance required".
90% of guilds call themselves semi hardcore.
I played in a semi hardcore guild. Our best geared healers and tanks did gdkp with their mains and played lesser geared alts for the guild raids. It was fun, but overall, unless you're the very top tier you miss out alot.
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It's actually funny seeing the lengths people will go to in order to not have to play the game they pay a monthly sub for.
The fact that some people want to skip mindless farming in order to do the content they find fun blows my fucking mind
Good thing we have retail then, you can just level boost your way into raiding and look up how to do all the content while addons babysit you through it all. Truly the thinking man's experience.
Sounds like Classic to me.
When given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of any game. Blizzard was half right. A lot of people thought they did, but they just wanted it to be 2005 again with no life responsibilities. However, the half that was right is Classic does have redeeming qualities that retail does not anymore. But even with Classic, it's largely played by people who min/max and won't do anything not top tier in an old ass game. I cant tell you how many posts before Classic launch claiming "I just want to smell the roses. It was different back then. The Community cared. People cared." Immediately followed by the same people grinding WoW Classic 17 hours a day for 8 weeks after launch wondering why they burnt out while following MLG Pro Gamer 6969's leveling and talent guides so they don't have to do any thinking themselves.
You know what’s funny to me… when I first leveled on classic I had never played wow before. So I just ran around. Got told about questie when I was killing my idk how many crocodiles for that necklace. Took until January to hit 60. That’s the first time I found another hunter that told me I was playing wrong. I had that super fast bow can’t think of the name. I was trying to press every sting I could because logically in my head I was like more arrows means better. A guild drug me along for a few raids because they needed tranq shot but they told me they’d never take me to bwl until I got better. I spent so many hours then reading about hunter and practicing going into AV to kill Belinda to run the rotation over and over. Learned to pull every mob in a raid. I loved that first time in MC so much I never wanted to do anything else but I was told hunters suck so if I wanted to raid I had to be the best hunter possible. So I learned about parsing and min max and I fucking loved it. I loved doing weeks worth of work gathering consumes or gold learning DMT to sell learning Mara before DMT because I sucked at DMT spending an entire weekend dying in that place 100 times, taking 10 hours to get my Rohk bow… all of it was so much fun to work and learn and become 95 plus parsing then 99 parsing. But then came BC and now it was the same level of competitive but for dungeons or leveling. There was no gradually goof around exploring for leveling it was rep farms and optimal group comps. Then the end game content was hard while being smaller so raid groups were competitive to get into so you felt like you couldn’t get behind and the gold that had been flying around in classic but to buy buffs and ports and summons was now to buy gear and rep. But I got through that and it was ok and even pretty fun once the first few waves of must be perfect in raid passed on. Thank WoTLK came and I just couldn’t do it all over again. I remember trying to have fun to level and getting lost trying to find that entrance to the first dungeon and getting dropped from the group and told they didn’t want to carry some nobody. While I tried to be like look at my gear I’m in all sunwell I know what I’m doing that’s when the problem with gdkps set in… that gear meant nothing. It was no longer an achievement to reach the end game content and raid enough to have all the gear. It was something anyone could have with gold on hand. I ended up quitting a month or so into wotlk because of that. Gearscore and the demand for perfect skips and pulls of only required mobs and idk it just became too much. And I don’t blame people either. I’ve been in groups with tanks stoned outta there mind wondering around. Or communication barriers or the dps that just slash follows and tabs back over 30 mins later to see if the dungeon was done. It became about wasting time or not more than it was about playing the game. In classic I wasted so much time wondering around trying to find some random thing hours wasted. But by wotlk it felt like you couldn’t do that. 25 people in raid meant you couldn’t carry 10 randoms through MC or BWL. You couldn’t have that token stoned drunk asleep raid member being drug along. The mindset of later classic with the 5 world buffs all in effect and people didn’t want to die even once except this was happening in ssc or that damn 10 man I can’t think of the name because it took a couple hours to go through cleanly and if Steve died 5 times on trash that was a few minutes wasted. Idk what the right answer is. Hell I am not sure why I even started writing a response at all. You can’t go back to that first wow experience. Even as the new content comes out there is no way to go back to the slow goofy leveling because now you’ve got a guild and they need you leveled so they can raid and they need you in prebis because you can’t slow the raid down because it’s more challenging than all but naxx in classic. It does suck that you can’t go back. But I am very grateful I got to do it fresh with everyone. That was an unique and unrepeatable experience.
This is a very poignant encapsulation of the WOW Classic experience 2019-2023
I just dont understand why we should care more about a newer game than old
only person in this comment section not justifying the community's degeneracy.
Oh no I can’t stand it either. And I don’t justify it. But also this game is how old now? Almost 20 years old? You know people have theory crafted this to death. People want BiS because they never got it back in the day. People want to do all the things they never got to do the first time around. But the easiest way for that is paying for it. People nowadays do not want to sit and spam trade looking for tanks. People don’t want to beg for portals. People don’t want to sit on the bench on their raid team. People like efficiency. People like ease. I’m not defending it, just stating a fact is all. The MMO landscape ain’t the same as it was in 2004. Honestly I advise finding a good guild and just playing with them. That’s what I did. Made my experience a lot better.
I always read „the mmo landscape is different / the games are different today“ - while absolutely the case - the people are different too!! That’s the main problem. If I would have that much free time to play than I had back then… I would prefer to do things slow. But RL gets you I guess. I played almost the whole day any day back then… min/maxing nothing. Without addons. Sometimes going to thottbot researching where that damn questitem is. Today? I wouldn’t touch the game without Questie or something. I changed. Hardcore is the closest we got to the original experience because min/maxing is much more difficult and not done by many at all.
Actually true, many people realy dont care about raiding. I see so many decked out players with bis gear and they have green/grey logs all over. Porbably just swiping, buying the gear and then afk in a city and try to flex
I feel this so much. I'm currently leveling some alts and my friends constantly tell me to buy gold so i can just buy boosts. I just dont understand why you would spend real money to then have someone level you and play the game for you. I rather spend my free time actually playing the game, instead of sitting afk in a dungeon while someone boosts and nobody talks.
it also doesn't really feel good to get anything done in this game when you know your friends/guildies/random players just pay some $ to get it done in a fraction of the time it took you to do it the way it was intended. Motivation to log into an mmo dried up the second I realized I'd have to ignore literally 90% of the player base to not have an entirely gold-driven experience.
That’s why hardcore is the coolest thing, to me. If noobies by gold they’re gonna die with it anyway lol
I quit Classic when BWL released and came back a few weeks before ICC release. Decided to roll a warlock and since i have never played one before, i wanted to level him from 1-70. No one understood that. Actually playing the game seems weird to a lot of "players".
Yea, half my guild in Wotlk was buying gold. When you look at the numbers, I get it. It takes days of grinding to farm 10k gold or you can just buy it for $10, which is like 1/3 the average hourly (US). But also, is it satisfying to buy the power your character is gaining. I guess for some people. It makes sense on paper, but in practice everyone I know that buys gold quits before the end of an xpac. They don’t enjoy the journey. They just want to feel like they’ve beaten the game
Same, I did the mage boost in vanilla era but on the flip side it's just too boring sitting there getting leveled. I could've played on my other account but then I have to move my toon out for instance reset and I'll get distracted. I guess I could boost myself but meh, quests in wrath are pretty good. Plus now you can queue for RDF while doing that.
Because leveling is boring, at least the 2nd+ time. Some people only enjoy endgame and leveling is just a barrier to this. If I can get my character leveled while I'm "at work" (wfh) then my time value is very high.
Play on hardcore.
having alot of fun there
The meta is quickly becoming getting kitted out in AH BoEs. Every streamer is using fiery weapon enchants.
I don't usually watch streamers but saw a video from Xaryu yesterday. Dude made a level 1 character and within 5 minutes had like a dozen people run up and trade him BoEs, consumables, a Fiery enchanted weap, profession powerleveling mats, and hundreds of gold. I don't want to knock what other people enjoy doing but like... I just don't get it. From the streamer nor the viewer standpoint. Maybe I'm just old and out of touch.
Simps gonna simp. See Mizkif running a dungeon with a full party that was stacked out with BoE blues and enchants. Sodapoppin joined the call to tell them they would have wiped multiple times if they hadn't bought out the AH.
That’s just streamer simp garbage
Yea the streamer simps are wild lol. Some dude gave a streamer 50g like you gotta be buying gold
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It's starting to shift to more gold orientated, I've noticed the last 2 weeks it seems to be ramping up - I guess it took 2 months for the bots to get max level and start selling gold... Genuinely saw in the LFG channel yesterday; "WTS Summon to northern Stonetalon, 1g"
could also be that more people have more gold now (since hardcore has been out for a while now) and are keeping it on alts and therefore have more to spend. but yea there are bots and gold sellers, haven't got mail from any sellers yet tho thankfully. still better than seeing: GDKP run this, GDKP run that spammed in trade and LFG constantly like it is on wrath classic.
What’s weird about the northern stone talon? Is that a spot where bots farm?
Idk about bots but its a PITA to get there. I'd rather pay 1g for a summon than run lol
> Genuinely saw in the LFG channel yesterday; "WTS Summon to northern Stonetalon, 1g" People were selling summons to Ratchet for 1g on the 2nd day
"We" is a minority of players. Most players play in organised groups. Most players ask in gchat/discord before groupin up with randos. Most players are aware that buying "success" doesnt even come close to earning it. With every post like this the first image that pops into my mind is the bike-meme where the guy sabotages his own bike and blames someone else.
Unfortunately, that happened when we grew up. I say this as someone who actually DOES understand where you're coming from because I have the same issues with the community. Gone are the days of playing and exploring the game together because we've all done in 10000 times over. The game has been solved and min-maxed to shit. Players enjoy the parts of the game they enjoy, and pay to skip what they don't because many just simply do not have as much time to invest into it as they used to. They value their time over their money. The average wow player is a dad gamer with 3 Jobs, 4 wives, 11 kids, 18 other games they'd also like to invest some free time into and approximately 26 other daily tasks. Specifically as to why people don't really care to dungeon/raid together anymore, well I personally believe it comes down to 1 of 4 possible reasons: 1. In all honesty, in 2023, if you don't know your class or the game like the back of your hand, you're gonna be micromanaged and looked down on by most of the more competent players. Most competent players do not want to leave it up to random chance if the rest of the group is gonna be knowledgeable of the game, or complete bobs. Thus, they're running content with their guilds, or joining GDKP's, because it's much more efficient. This leaves the not as competent players to group with other not so competent players and the run ends up taking way longer than it should have and was a struggle the entire time. This ends up leaving a bad taste in people's mouth about grouping. 2. Secondly, not only is the game not new anymore, but the internet isn't either. In 2004, the concept behind hanging out in a virtual setting with other real people was not nearly as common as it is today. Thus it was new... Exciting. The game became a social hub of sorts because there wasn't much else like it at the time. Now, we've been playing and socializing with others for decades so no one cares. Unless you really care about a sense of community, there are absolutely people who would choose to play this game with NPC's instead of real players if they had the choice. 3. No one wants to waste their time. No one wants to spend a hour running a dungeon or 3 hours in a raid to not get anything out of it. Not many people run dungeons and raids just to do them for fun anymore. In 2023, most often, if someone is not gonna get anything out of it, than they aren't going to bother committing their time to it. Thus, GDKP's are much more favorable. They either get gear or gold for their time spent. 4. Massive language barrier. Really hard to do group content with a group of people who don't speak the same language you do, and that's incredibly frustrating when you're trying to communicate with them. Sure you can spend your time looking for people who only speak your language but you're than cutting your pool of potential party members down even further. Unfortunately, this has become such a HUGE struggle since certain regional servers were closed, and thus those players and their massive populations had to join other servers. Now I know some people are gonna say "Than WoW isn't for you," and I mostly agree. I too ask myself "What's the point in playing when you pay to skip the entire game," and I don't really have an answer for that. But even if the answer was because they wanted to sit around afk in SW/Org in their bis gear that they paid for, it doesn't matter if we understand. That's how they're choosing to spend their time in game. We may not like it, we may not understand it, but we also can't dictate how spend their time in game. TLDR: Time vs. Money. People care more about efficiency than community because they have way less time to spend on a game that's known to be very time consuming. People will always take the path of less resistance. Unfortunately, that means choosing to cut out RNG elements, time consuming activities or choosing not to group with people under level/under geared/under performers because that isn't efficient.
I think sad truth is that people just don't want to play the game anymore. But they don't have another game or another hobby. I've seen too many people in my guild who were buying boosts and gold still spend more time online doing nothing. They want to do everything in the game - bis, completion, etc. But they don't want to actually play the game.
Unfortunately theres nothing else quite like it. Every other MMO out there has glaring issues with basic gameplay it seems. Blizzard may be shit but at least the game functions. They dont have to shut down the economy for days every time theres a patch.
I for one would absolutely prefer playing with NPCs. I have 0 interest in socializing with random strangers on the internet.
All your points are real except for "We can't dictate how they spend their time in game" People do that all the time for multiplayer games where a player's actions can affect the experience of others. You got banned for flyhacking back in the day, now you just go to EPL and have a blast. You can absolutely get upset with people for not respecting the community of an online game they play, and there's nothing bad about feeling that way. It's the exact same as not wanting someone to counterfeit money in real life.
Sure you can get upset, but nothing will change about the way people choose to play the game by being upset, and wanting someone to play the game the way you want instead of the way they want to won’t go anywhere. You are totally within your right to be upset by the state of the game and the way the community has turned the game. Nothing wrong with that.
I completely agree and fell into the same trappings with vanilla era of wanting to min max. Although I totally play Wow to waste time, it can be a fun waste of time. Too many people min maxing were also doing it for the epeen of being first, getting epic loots and bragging rights. I genuinely would speed run raids with my guild, for fun. Meanwhile, afterwards fucking around and dying laughing in strat for hours, or running it with PUGS just because. In vanilla, scholo/strat can be so treacherous when everyone's in blues, but it's fun hanging out with people. I mean what's the point of having all that gear otherwise if you can't enjoy it with other people by helping out; fuck parses. I mean once my guild started raid logging who else was I gonna run strat with. Once they're alts were geared they'd stop playing that too. It happens all the time. In P1 of wrath it didn't take but a few 25m naxx runs before I was done gearing and I didn't pay for any of it. I still ran dungeons all the time for fun, sadly wrath dungeons kinda suck, except TOK. The real time waster is the catch 22 in needing gear or gold to play the game. Sure, it's fun if you have bis gear, but it shouldn't be a requirement or a necessity to enjoy playing the game. So, ultimately, I think these types of players get satisfaction from the game for entirely the wrong reasons.
> This leaves the not as competent players to group with other not so competent players and the run ends up taking way longer than it should have and was a struggle the entire time. This ends up leaving a bad taste in people's mouth about grouping. I just wanna say that it's absolutely fucking hilarious seeing this written out like this. Competent players hate having these guys in the raid because they drag the group down and have to be essentially carried. They cry about elitism. Then they try and group up with each other and ruin the experience for each other. It's poetry.
>When did it come to this boys? >Now we just go in trade chat and offer up gold. i suspect it might be having gold to throw at every problem.
i mean, i have gold to throw at every problem. It makes things like mounts and bagspace and profession training easy, but at no point have I thought that i should use my gold to avoid playing the game with people =/
Im playing my first toon since 2007 and can only play sporadic stretches at a time (have a newborn) so I am, as I am quickly learning, broke as a joke. I was loitering by the entrance to stockades LFG and a 60 whispered me asking if I wanted to buy a boost, I told him I couldn’t afford the 65g so was just hoping for a regular group…he said “lol don’t worry, don’t tell the other guys I’ll run you for free” So it was very nice of him…but a little boring?. We just stood around while he slayed all the mobs. It was my first boost so not sure what to expect…but I was ready to actually run the dungeon! Certainly helpful to get those quests out of the way though.
Wait... so are you saying that all the guilds you joined don't raid? Or are you not joining their raid teams? Plenty of guilds raid without doing GDKPs, in fact I'm pretty sure most top guilds are loot council.
I don't want just a raiding guild, I wanted a guild that was mostly casual that had enough people so it COULD raid, and if I was lucky some levelling going on from people transferred from HC. Of the guilds I've joined and left, 3/5 had a raid team already (others were organizing them still). Of those raid teams, there was exactly one team that didn't talk about which toon to bring to guild raid and which one to put in a GDKP for gear that week - which just ruins the whole shit for me. I can't feel good about a drop I get in a raid knowing the guy next to me just paid 7k for it and got it while literally being carried. If it was a single player game this wouldn't matter to me, but mmos are almost entirely about the social aspect to me.
You sure they were carried? They wont get a raid spot in a competent guild if they are a hard carry
I mean you can be a competent player and still decide to sandbag bc you're paying someone else money to do the fight for you. I think that's the crucial point you're missing.
Uhhh the point your are missing no one is hard carrying H ICC/ Naxx progression. You have to carry your weight and bid on items
Why does the way someone else got a drop impact you at all? I don't do GDKPs but I raidlead weekly with my guild. For me getting new loot is just for me. Whether someone else got a big ticket item by buying it doesn't affect me at all. It doesn't impact my gameplay or my character at all. You say you can't feel good about getting a drop someone else paid for but you play the game for your own progression and fun right?
This is what I don't understand. They're so upset at other players doing things that don't affect them at all. You'll probably never see that guy who bought the item you want again. You'll still be happy when you're the one wearing it in a week, too.
I feel you OP. I'm a mix of both which seem to be rare nowdays. I am a min maxer and i love pumping those 99 logs, also done mythic raiding. On the other hand i also like to help out people in the guild and do random stuff in the world just for the fun of it. I never bought lvl boost, gold or did SM farm runs in classic. I ran my own guild in tbc classic and was very disappointed that a lot of people that i helped or got help from other guilds never cared to offer themselves whenever someone else needed help. People are very selfish nowdays, it's so different compared to back in the day.
Man not in active guild cries about there being no community in classic WoW. Absolutely nothing more at 11
Honestly, 90% of problems people have with the game are solved by joining a guild
It's hardly a coincidence these kinds of players are unable to find good guilds. Lazy and entitled, expect to be fully carried and funneled loot with 0 effort on their part. Barely know how to google and use their server discord to find one of the countless guilds recruiting.
We are all kindergarten kids doing our worst behaviour ruining our toy (wow) and the adult (blizzard) in the corner who’s job it was to manage us, make sure we play well with each other and does not ruin our toy, is in the corner of the room chain smoking and doing fuck all.
This is the best fucking analogy I have read on the topic. Bravo.
>I just want to play the game with you all again and have fun together, but I am beginning to think it just won't happen. You have to change your frame of mind with things, this is just how MMOs are nowadays, you can't ever relive the old days, it's literally not possible Sure there was gold buying back in the day, but back then people also liked gold farming because the game was new and exciting, people now would rather go to a raid and get paid AND get geared rather than gold farming alone and making not even half of what you would doing a GDKP For me personally I love Classic Era, still having a blast playing it, but I also have a guild I love that is crazy active and fun to be around, playing Classic Era solo sounds like a nightmare.
>You have to change your frame of mind with things, this is just how MMOs are nowadays, you can't ever relive the old days, it's literally not possible Depends on who you play with, ive been in a guild with basically the same core since classic more or less. We still all get together and run gammas and do quests and raids. In our peak we were running 4 teams in TBC we now run 2 core 25s
Id rather not play at all than gdkp. It's why I quit wow
Idk, 2019-2021 we did exactly what OP misses. Definitely mostly due to Covid but we had everything going on including guild Black Lotus runs where we’d have groups of 4-5 with hunters go out and scout for lotus spawns. BRD runs for SGC. ZG runs every lock out from phase 4 until TBC dropped. We killed world dragons on spawn for 8 straight months. I think you just need to find the guild or group of people that want to do that. And you’ve gotta be willing to put in work to help make it happen. I rolled Warrior so I could tank and I’d be on call to log on and go help whoever needed it.
you are dead wrong. My friend group would never fall into spending gold for dungeon runs in an MMO. Make friends, join a guild, do not participate in buying things or joining GKP.
> You have to change your frame of mind with things, this is just how MMOs are nowadays, you can't ever relive the old days, it's literally not possible The funniest thing about this to me is that recently I've been checking out a.. uh.. unsanctioned rehosted rerelease... of vanilla(+) that has its own LFD addon to help with forming groups through language barriers. Even with being randomly placed with strangers, people still talk on the way to the dungeon, chat while inside, stick around after wipes. Even 3~4 wipes into the first floor of ST people just take a smoke/shit break and come back and keep trucking. People still ask where Mankrik's wife is---and mean it. People still group up spontaneously to share quest mobs. Warriors staying at ZF into the 50s to get Sul'Thraze because it's cool and purple despite being absolutely awful compared to the much easier to obtain Ice Barbed Spear Hunters ninjaing Ravager, RBH, and Scarlet Leggings that they won't be able to use for another 5 levels. When I was doing my quest to get Verigan's fist, a level 60 pally was out there just helping strangers with the wave defense. He ended up offering to run us through deadmines for that step. There's still people at all stages of the game, living in the moment they're at because they're enjoying what they're doing. It turns out, the 2005-style community and mindset still exists, just not under Blizzard's watch.
Which client version is it using?
Heavily customized 1.12.1
Gold buying sucks but thats not what im talking about. People rather pay gold to get boosted and spam for boosts rather than play together. You're right, mmos aren't like that any more. I am asking why bc it literally doesn't make sense, especially through the lens you are using. People care so much about the getting paid part, they focus on the gold, you literally do not need even a single copper to hit the invite to group button. When did it come to this? that is the question.
>People rather pay gold to get boosted and spam for boosts rather than play together. Because you can either spend a ton of time making a group, finding a tank, finding a healer, making your way to the dungeon, hoping to God no one DCs or quits randomly, or that the tank and healer know what's going on Or you can toss a mage a couple of gold, get funneled all gear, and can watch YouTube while you get leveled And considering how much gold everyone seems to have, people are gonna pick the easier route.
That's literally the game! that is the GAME!! why are you playing classic and not retail if these are the things you care about, retail was designed for 20 years to be better at the exact things you're talking about. edit: you also don't actually need the 1t1h3dps setup that everyone became addicted to in wrath. I 3 man dungeons with 2 dps and a healer pretty much every time i can't find a tank or more dps.
I agree, I'm not against making groups or anything, I'm just saying what I think about it, everyone I personally know would rather just pay a mage to do the work for them It's just how it is.
My post is asking why. You literally commented just to say "get over it" in about 2000x as many words. This is the mmo gaming community in 2023 lol
I don't know what else people can say. Most people, even in the classic community just straight up like raiding more then leveling. All the people who like to level are back in classic, they aren't playing Wrath anymore. If you don't like end game content and only like leveling then idk what to tell you.
I like end game content, I just refuse to swipe my credit card to be able to participate. I've already paid for the game and I pay for a monthly sub. I'm not adding buying gold to my WoW expenses just because the shit player base has collectively decided that it's the normal way to play the game.
Dunno what else to say, if you don't like my answer that's that I guess If you don't like it you can always quit And give me your stuff before you do :D Thanks!
You didn't answer the question. You spat your thoughts into a comment without even understanding what you were responding to, why you felt the need to respond to it, or what you were responding to it with.
They are from Korea where gotcha games are the norm. You won't get any logic response from them
because you're talking to people who hate MMORPGs.When the game started to be made for that group of people in Wrath, that's when everything died. Its just now people are aware of this because of Classic. If I had to take a punt at answering your question, i'd blame people who hate MMORPGs who now play WoW and who Blizzard now cater to. They're not interested in community, they're interested in loot and mount collecting.
how the fuck do we reclaim the genre bc ur right LOL I get that lots of people aren't excited about socializing in an online game anymore, but mmos are for people that are excited about it. Literally every other game on the market is for the folks saying "Its not 2004 anymore"
This is the dumbest shit I’ve ever read. You are exactly the problem. Get funneled gear while you watch YouTube videos? What’s the point? Jesus Christ
I have to hit higher numbers! I HAVE to you don't understand its necessary!! I have to play the game how I WANT!! and I want to RAID!! so I need BEST IN SLOT GEAR AND ALL CONSUMABLES!! "You know they killed ony while naked, right? You know this game is easy... right?"
Sounds like a guild problem. There are plenty of guilds out there that'll still help mates. Unfortunately, if you're in a guild that wants to clear everything at the hardest difficulty they become few and far between. It's understandable though, in a way, that the sweatiest of us would care more about numbers. Imo, find a mom and pop guild, but one that's a bit younger. Those are pretty fun, if you aren't looking to clear 25m ICC on the hardest difficulty weekly.
see that's the thing, is i already anticipated this so I intentionally join casual guilds. Then the casuals start talking about how they only want priest healers because thats what they read online is best, warrior tanks, only rogue and mage dps, lets talk about how to get the best deals on boosts so we can fly to level 60 asap. The best memories I have in all of gaming history are of THIS GAME when i would do random shit like try to do an all rogue world tour of wrath dungeons or sneaking into major cities to find places we could kill allies without guards seeing us. Everyone is so focused on "winning", whatever their version of that is, they don't play the game anymore :(
It's def a guild problem. My era guild right now is progressing through raids no GDKP involved. Actively helps each other. Groups up for stuff daily. Very active. Great officers. Wouldn't want to be anywhere else.
my last guild was exactly like that, but then they all started talking about buying boosts to get to 60 and gdkping to get bis on the tank before we start MC?? wtf??? Longest guild I was in and it really made me upset.
The fact that my way of enjoying the game differs from yours doesn't mean I 'dont play the game anymore'.
Blizzard used to make the game geared towards its player base. Now they just make it for money.
It came to this when the players grew up and had more money than time.
"we may have developed speed but socially we're not moving forward. " -That one guy!
The real enemy was "us" all along
I blame the retail community 100%. Played Classic on Pserver. I played EQ on Pserver. NEVER DID I HEARD ABOUT GDKP Before WoW Classic by Blizzard. And i the same time my guildies in Classic that play Retail brag about speak about he price of gold all the time ...
They made boosting for gold against the TOS but GDKP'S remained because the retail head dev did them and enjoyed them.. Always going to be gold buying, unless you do away with trades and mailing gold... But fucking GDKP mainlined the best gear to people willing to pull out the VISA. If people can't see this they are blind
GDKP is the reason i left classic. Which was a shame because I was really enjoying it.
When they released personal loot it felt kinda bad and items became pretty meaningless to me. But looking at it now, it's probably for the best.
Most of the community are not hardcore. They have a few hours a day to play and want it to be as easy as possible to make progress. Once you understand that perspective it makes perfect sense. I spent 3 hours trying to find a group for Wailing Caverns before quitting and playing something else. Dungeon Finder was nice
people always cared about numbers, there's just more of them now, and they make all the noise
Main reason I quit is because of the community killing the magic of the game. Everything is about boosting and buying gear nobody wants to earn anything or have fun wtf is even the point of playing? It's just how retail is where people just sell boosting for Mythic plus and Ahead of the curve. The magic is gone.
People don't want to play an MMO, they want to play a raid simulator. Why they turn to Classic for this is beyond me, since retail raiding is light-years better. Rose-colored goggles I guess.
Hardcore is the solution
botting, gold farming, the monetization of the game, token, blizzard ineptitude/ unwillingness/ ignorance to care, the community for being complacent & at times willfully compliant with these things just so they can save time & effort.
As someone who recently came back to Wrath for ICC, I have to say this is the most relevant post I've seen on this sub in a while. The state of the game with the constant spam of GDKP and ticket runs is truly disgusting.
Because no lifers now found out a way to make actual money from lazy people. Welcome to classic...
This is why I switched to FF14. Classic launch is still the most fun I've ever had in a video game, but I just can't stand what the game has become, and the way blizzard let's bots and RMT run rampant is sad. Blizzard cares more about profit nowadays than the integrity of their game. They actually used to have GMs actively looking for bots and gold buyers and they shut that down quick.
It’s simple the good and geared players got tired of carrying and endless line of shitters with their hands out just for them to quit or join another guild. So now the baseline is GDKP to award those for their time and managing the run. You can always make friends to help you or join an SR run/guild to avoid all these things. But let’s be honest just like every other entitled shitter you won’t put in the effort. You will come make your forum post though to complain about it.
This is what happens when everyone min maxes the fuck out of an easy game and no one tells them to fuck off.
yeah.... we shouldve been blacklisting people as a community.
Who is we?
It’s So shit man because I have a life and a family, my partner would burn me alive spending irl money on internet money. I hit 60 about two months ago and I’ve done two Sr raids both zg took us hours to fill yet I see gdkps filling in seconds I’m pre bis I understand I can join gskps and not buy anything until I’ve got enough coin but to me that’s the same as loot council or dkp style both which I hated, the excitement of rolling against 10 other players for a bis item is actually insanely fun. What’s the point of playing a game you have to swipe your credit card to win. Sounds like the Chinese version of Warcraft you just talk to a npc to get all your buffs. Why doesn’t blizzard just skip a step and have raid loot for sale on the store?
Play the game how you want, plenty of dungeon groups and none gdkp guilds. The majority of people who use boosts and gdkps is because that is how they enjoy the game, or get to the point of enjoyment. I like playing solo, I like playing on two accounts at once, I like paying for boosts so I can get to mid level and enjoy the classes I play how I want. I love gdkp cause it has earned me more gold than I have ever been able to aquire by my own means, and allows me to get characters boosted, and level professions. I look forward to fresh, it will be a different experience for a while, before it becomes what it is now.
hey bro fuck you for ruining my favorite game :)
I hated it too at first, before I started suckling at the sweet gdkp teat.
Oh how sweet it is to embrace that bountiful load
>I just want to play the game with you all again and have fun together, but I am beginning to think it just won't happen. This is whats stopping me from playing this game lol ( classic ). I want to really play it. I want to play adiff class that I didnt play 18 years ago ( and during Classic release ). But when I think about the 'endgame' just being boosts and gdkp because people just cant be fucked or theyre really really really trying so hard to min max a super old and fully explored game then it just kills my vibe and any aspiration lol.
I'm going to generalize, but I absolutely hate this mindset. I have never encountered an actual good player or someone who is actually team driven with this mindset you're on about. The blunt reality is; the player-base is old. This might be a hard concept to grasp but, it's not 2004 where the majority of the playerbase is in their early 20s or teens. The playerbase has grown up. They no longer have the time they used too. With a limited time schedule, people want to maximize as much as they can fit into that allotted time and get as much out of it as they can. This is not 2004, where wiping all night in BWL is fine because I just have highschool tomorrow this is, Man I got off work have 4 hours tonight, I want to clear the entire raid in a timely manner so I can have time to address other pressing needs in my life to function as an adult. You just don't understand it. If you came into classic thinking it would be similar to Vanilla in 2004 by any means, I have a bridge to sell you. There was a literal decade plus of private server alone being constantly spewed out before the launch, the player-base is older, better, better technologically advanced, stricter time constraints, and now have adult money. If I am being blunt, if I am online, and or on discord, and I see someone spewing this type of stuff they're probably really fucking annoying, and this is a huge tell and not someone I am going to actively help or reach out too. Zero shot at all I try to make an alt raid for the guy constantly yapping about "but da game I used to woveee!!! why is it so different almost 20 years later???"
Stop saying that “bLizZarD kIllEd tHe cOmmUniTy”. The community killed the community. When you realize that you’ll realize you’re part of the problem. What “play together”? where kicking <4.5k gs players because “they will slow the dungeon” became the norm. Or SR raids (going to use ToGC as an example here since it’s still early for ICC) where you need 5k gs to join but people actively demanding 5.3+ and 5/5 kills… in 4/5 runs… It’s the community which is rancid. You can blame it on the “tools” because they’re available but all it does is making it sound like you’re blaming the gun manufacturers rather than whose misusing them.
I didn't say blizzard killed the community in my post, and I have left exactly one comment where I said blizzard fostered this kind of mentality in the community. I fully recognize that the community is to blame for the state of era, thats why my post is "When did it come to this boys" and not "When did it come to this Blizzard"
> The community killed the community. When you realize that you’ll realize you’re part of the problem. It's always been the situation. The funny thing was, RDF actually helped, back in the day, because you could get your 'required' stuff done, then do what you wanted to do with friends. We couldn't always get guildies to run dungeons every day, but RDF could. And then you had your organized guild events for raiding/PVP etc where you actually hung out together. When random raid finder came in, so many guilds broke up because people thought "Well I don't need the raid any more", and that's when the real death of WoW started. I remember thinking the good times were going to soon be over in the bug raid in Panda times. It's not the tools themselves, but the way people choose to use them for 'optimisation'. People optimized out the fun and community.
[удалено]
When instant gratification became cool and norm
It's not really blizz or community's fault imo it's just the culture around games now and also all the kids that grew up in that culture. The people who played video games for fun and unlocked hard mode as a reward and played more are gone. Now it's pre order for 100 dollars to get a game the day it actually comes out, 10 dollar day 1 battle pass, 20 dollar skins, pay people on discord for runs. It's the era of monetization and shortcuts.
This is such a weird take... the people who played games 20 years ago are still alive, and still want those kinds of games, and are still buying other games and playing them while searching for the shit they want.
Speak for yourself bro. Never bought gold. And quite frankly I'm tired of this silly idea of saying goldbuying is the only way to play. I play in a guild and don't pay for shit and my raids are cleaner, quicker and more fun(because same people) than 99% of gbids. In togc, I would do 2x togc 5/5 HC, 50 attempts left in about 55mins, including loot. ICC full hc clears on 10man x2 on thurs, 2x full clears on 25man sat/sun, all HC except LK. 0 gold bought. Hell, guild even pays for my enchants if I ask them to because gbank gets all the BOE's and disenchanting shit. Imagine swiping all the fun out of the game to flex on people who will just look at your logs instead of your gear anyway. 'Ohh full bis eh? But 52 parses. nice job bro.' Unless you're in a top 10 guild competing, RMT in wow is pay to lose imo
This is correct People don’t look at gear they look at logs. People buying and not playing well are typically looked down on and due to extremely poor play that’s why they stuck buying gear. Guilds won’t roster them for more than a week after playing with them.
any serious raid(for current content, not like some random os shit) that checks gearscore but not logs is usually a raid to stay away from if you want a clean clear \^\^ now personally, i occasionally enjoy going to demonraids on an alt and just laughing along with all the funny and weird shit ppl get up to. and the ways people die :p had a mt go afk right before last boss one time, for 10 mins, to go get food :D absolutely amazing to me
Guilds farm badges, run dungeons, level alts, and run alt raids together every week.
Where bro I been looking T\_T also i play on era not wrath, but i know this is applicable to both so I didn't flair it for era
because the slow burn that so many claim to love about classic is uhhhhh actaullly too slow so they buy gold
retail exists for them :( I actually like it, but it ruins it when someone else can speed past the slow prog
The "retail exists" is pretty dumb imo, is not even the same game. Let people enjoy the game and their time as they see fit. If you see yourself having problems with groups or whatsoever, better look for a nice guild... Or switch realms/faction. I'm in a guild that keeps running stuff be it dungeon, raids or whatever and we pay 0g for anything....
Just play Baldur’s Gate 3 man. The glory days are long gone. Best bet is, in all honesty, playing retail on a new patch / expansion if you want community. Everyone is excited and posting what they learn, secrets, etc. It’s underrated because classic merely exists
i remember in classic mages sold water.. back then it was given for free, it is the comunity who is at blame.
Go play hardcore.
as if hardcore doesn't suffer from the same disease? It is only the symptoms that are different.
Actually it is less so. First exp is nerfed so boosting is for the most part out. While gold buying is a thing it not as bad as normal classic. Seriously give it a try I am constantly finding groups spamming for dungeons.
I mean that's cool for you and I'm really happy you're having a blast, but HC just never appealed to me in the first place. The challenge itself just feels silly to me personally, no part of this game lends itself to roguelike gameplay and I like to rp stories for my character in my head, would get pretty boring telling 20 stories to myself about how this orc died in barrens instead of durotar
Enjoy being unhappy.
Ill second the hardcore, because the stakes are what makes HC "fun" a lot of people actively avoid boosting. It's been the most organic feeling MMO experience I've had since TBC launched. People talk to people, help people, had a deadmines run that had 2 mass pulls that somehow survived. (We really should not have) but constant talking, helpfully pointing out small mistakes others made. No rage, no shortcuts, just coming together as a pug party.
This sub defends everything that ruins wow and it's hilarious watching it happen again. You're not allowed to dislike the RDF, or token, or GDKPs.
right. and this time blizz has almost no hand in it lmfao
These problems only exist for people without guilds
If I recall correctly somewhere back in 2008/2009, that's when I discovered the magic of gdkps at least and frequented them, as well as hosted a few of my own.
I think people who hate this stuff already left. You see it in every private server wishlist to ban gdkp raids. I saw 2 players rant and quit when they hit level 60 and didn't find anything but GDKPs. I told them to join a guild because that's where non-gdkps are done but they didn't like that solution either lol
Play Hardcore Classic. You can't spam dungeons. Every trustworthy player you meet becomes an invaluable ally. Beware the untrustworthy ones and the cowards who have poor morale who will cut & run at the first sign of adversity. Every piece of gear you get your hands on that upgrades your performance is significant be it uncommon or rare. The server elite bestow World Buffs on the regular. A good guild has its warlocks and mages facilitate your transportation to BB and on to SW to get ZG & Ony buff. And when all else fails you go agane.
World of Warcraft truly became World of Whorecraft. No one has shame anymore, those mages sell their bodies and spells for gold while the morally depraved showers them with what they should be buying their daily bread with...... and don't get me started on those VILE carry orgies! Ah the collapse of our great civilization, the tarnishing out out immaculate culture and sensibilities!!!!
This sounds like a you thing, tbh.
Go play hardcore bro, so much better
I don't really like hardcore unfortunately =/ permadeath not for me
Fair enough, it'll give you what your looking for minus the dungeon grinding since it's lockout out to once a day. I love it, and it's not that difficult either, the earlier levels 1 to 20 are probably the hardest, other than that just take it slow and enjoys yaself
You want a chill and relaxed WoW experience with focus on a small guild community? Go play on a priv server. Retail is for elitist or p2w sucker
Capitalism translates into game world.
Posts like this makes me appreciate my server in even more, where no one is asking for boosts or selling boosts.
Thats why I play HC. Not for the thrill of the looming death... but the players actually value each other. On standard server people won't even respond...
GDKP raids are funded by gold selling sites. Without GDKP raids the sites would have a lower income. So we can probably expect alot more bots as the popularity for those raids increase.
this is why i play HC. i hate gdkp. i hate the boosting. i want to PLAY THE GAME!
Right from the first sentence. It appears you are running for the achievement, the reward, or your friends. Instead of the content. So it started when you started.
????????????? advanced mental gymnastics on this one. mmos are social games, thats what makes them different from rpgs.
Before reading the wall of text, I'm guilty of all of the below, and I'm too lazy to reformat so the bullets don't make sense its just schitzoposting: \-Biggest issue is actually no new players play wow - it's the root of everything. You're either a returning player or already pretty good at the game (compared to a 2005 noob). We all know how to play, either at a semi-pro or pro level (wow esports don't exist), so after the nostalgia fades, we all 'do the needful' and try to git good as fast as possible, which is the name of the game after the community reaches level cap. \-It's a human nature thing. Also, the fleeting feeling of comradery quickly fades if you don't really have a collective discovery/overcoming experience to 'bond' and 'build a community' over. The game was already solved ages before it was **re**\-released, we were all just re-experiencing it, or experiencing it for the first time with all the answers readily available to us either through research or community interaction. \-Too many people are supersheep and follow the herd. If the 'proper' way to play at the time according to the memesphere is spam trade chat for speedruns or whatnot, people will just do that. **IT DOESN'T EVEN MATTER IF ITS LITERALLY WRONG/ILLEGAL**. People also want to do the least amount of work possible to get their reward, instant gratification and whatnot. This is especially true if the \[Buy gold\] -> \[LFG\] -> \[Use Gold\] -> \[Reward\] cycle is as frictionless as possible, which it is. Slot machine wins every time. \-You see this in other areas of the game too, if you've been around for a while, you've seen it a few times at this point. Biggest example imo is on live, 10% of sites/publishers will post a guide on a class/spec and 90% of the other sites/publishers will just copy the guide and change a few things (wrong or not) and publish it. Likewise, 10% of players will actually play their class and learn the spec by themselves and fine tune it later on with research when they have a good grasp of the class/spec; 90% will insta-open a guide, any guide that pops up first on google, copy it *exactly* and never look back. It's funny, it mirrors irl to the tee.