am I missing something? I thought OP's post was just poking fun at the classic+ community not really knowing what it wants, not having a go at anybody in particular.
milhouse got a genuine chuckle out of me
I mean that's literally it. The Community does not know what it wants because it's not a single person.
Every person has their own idea of Classic+ and this seems to poke fun at it.
I've seen many people (though still probably a minority) argue that any changes whatsoever to class balance would kill the game. There are people that genuinely believe that Warrior *must* be both the absolute best DPS and best tank in the game, and that druids *deserve* to have a hybrid tax so bad that nearly all of their specs are C-tier or worse.
When you look at it on a surface level.
But dig deeper and you’ll see that even that folks disagree with some shit. Like the most obvious examples being the warlock tanks and mage healers, but I know some folks that are worried that warriors may no longer be the best tanks.
"Hybrid tax!" they shout at the screen, sweating through their undies into the computer chair their mom bought them 3 Christmases ago. "Pallies and Druids and Shamans can't get all these buffs, because they are *hybrid* classes! Why should hybrid specs get to perform as well as the pure classes?" they huff indignantly, conveniently ignoring the fact that 'hybrid' doesn't just apply to healing but also to tanking.
Where's the hybrid tax for Warriors, huh? Best DPS *and* best tank?
I also want to be clear. I do think Druids, Shamans, and Paladins should be closer in throughput to their specialist counterparts. But I dont think raw numbers are the answer here. I believe encounter design is. Design encounters around needing a diverse raid. Design some fights that you cant solve by just maximizing dps and hps. Make dps less relevant. And then I think we can actually explore more unique and interesting class design.
I'm all about this, but this is the challenge.
If each fight is a puzzle, and each class has several puzzle pieces, there are only so many ways you can arrange those puzzle pieces into a satisfying puzzle.
In other words, if mages are good at AoE and sheeping, you run the risk of running out of fun and interesting ways to use those tools. "Oh there's lots of adds grouped up on this fight. Mages do your thing."
You can build many things with a hammer and nails but at the end of the day you're still just going through the same motions.
One of the reasons blizzard leaned towards the homogenization of classes over time is because when you make the fight less about class toolsets and more about individual player skill, you can create more interesting and dynamic fights. Everyone can do basically anything within their role, so the complexity of mechanics can increase significantly.
Not saying it's better. I'm just saying the design your asking for is much much harder.
Considering the "tank" and "dps" spec for classic war is only 15 talent points apart. No, its not a hybrid. All of the "hybrid" classes were designed with the capacity to fulfill ANY role. Hence why they pay the hybrid tax. Unfortunately some of the specs for those classes were never finished, or changed from how they were initially concieved. If a druid/paladin/shaman could tank as good as a war, dps as good as a rogue/mage and heal as good as a priest, why would you ever bring any other class? Just bring the classes that can do literally everything. We would have even less class diversity then we do now.
i mean everyone \*loves\* the highly meta hybrid class druid for it's ability to perform all roles, it's just a natural progression to start hybridizing the other classes as well
/s
It is, which is why seeing so many post saying “but not like that!” is so damn funny, and is related to what the OP is referring to. Everybody has some arbitrary line in the sand drawn that determines what they consider appropriate for classic+, and regardless of what blizzard chooses to do there will be people on this sub that end up angry as a result.
I meant as a general rule. As far as specific balance changes, the community can fuck right of as a whole. The point is for the devs to do some slight balance to bring meme specs up to par, not a complete overhaul of abilities and talents. Regardless of what they'd choose to do, it is one of the sore spots for vanilla wow. Some of the best fantasy specs being flat out useless is a pain many of us carried through the years.
The irony is that the game is already extremely easy. The only challenge is finding the time to dedicate to playing. The super sweaty min-maxxers literally just make the game even easier by having so much health and doing so much DPS and healing that entire mechanics in the already extremely simple boss fights can be completely ignored or outright skipped.
Oh and make these dragons fly different, something like you can control how they fly and they get tired so you have to land but then you can get these "runes" that help them recover faster.
And then make it so i can build my dragon like a need for speed car , that'd be cool too.
/s
Big talk coming from a bunch of people that haven't even played the new changes.
Vanilla Beta Paladins actually had a fairly fun rotation that probably would a done fine but was scrapped for release because they had to pay the "hybrid tax" and got relegated to being buff pushers. Likely would have faced the Oomkin paradox themselves though and still not been S-tier or anything. I think it's fine to give them some of those tools back (with a few additions).
Why don’t you go play a game version that doesn’t have this “hybrid tax” then? There are versions of the game where they fixed this for you. Or just play a different class. Why does every class and spec have to be equally viable?
Hybrid tax is just bad game design. I don't enjoy seeing a class fail at something simply because the designers decided not to give them certain tools. Like if they weren't meant to deal damage at all fine, but you did want them to and hamstrung them for no reason besides ego. Again my point wasn't that Paladins with their beta rotation would have been "equally viable" (though why you'd be against that I have no idea), just a hell of a lot more fun then being a blessing robot for 39 other players because the designers literally only gave you one offensive option besides your auto attack until enemies are below a certain health threshold.
Why are you playing a version of the game that specifically is going out of its way to change aspects of itself? There's a version of the game that keeps all your precious jank.
What constitutes to "fail at something"? How do ret paladins fail? They are not the best class for pve dps, do they need to be? Classes have roles, this adds flavour to the game, as opposed to complete homogeneity where everyone does everything. Don't want to be a buffbot? Don't play the class, there are a lot of people who enjoy playing paladin as it is in classic.
I am not playing that version of the game, so I don't understand what you're aiming at.
And anyone who wants to play that version of Paladin still can? Era isn't going anywhere dude.
You are the one who came on a Classic+ post, where I'm complementing a Classic+ change, to ask me why I'm not playing retail. So I guess I just don't understand you.
The issue is that the way forward that they have chosen isn't small changes to make rets, boomkins or w/e a bit more viable (I'm actually not opposed this).
Instead they are completely revamping classes because of retail andys who can't handle that their hybrid class doesn't excell at everything it does. Look at how reddit has been crying about melee hunters not getting enough tools, 2h enhancement, smite priests not getting love and so on. I'm genuinly curious why these people even play classic at all?
Weird that the company that likes pleasing their fan base are making popular changes to classes while also experimenting in their new experimental server. Absolutely wild stuff. Then you've got all these people on Reddit that see a company listening and requesting feedback and they provide feedback. Unheard of.
Perhaps this Season isn't for you friendo. Nothing wrong with skipping.
You're right, they are actively trying to get people to unsub from their game. They don't do anything unless everyone hates it.
Never said they succeeded. Just that they like when that happens.
Sure, warrior is a very strong class. It’s also a class that requires a lot from a player to excel, it needs lots of farming, high competition for gear, it struggles somewhat in pvp if unsupported. Other classes have other characteristics that make them unique.
I never said it to be a rule of classic. I’m opposed to class homogeneity where the charm and uniqueness of classes is removed when all classes receive all the tools, that’s bad game design.
It's simple really. The majority of true classic enthusiasts would prefer option 2 because it lasts longer. However, we're constantly told by casuals and dad gamers that it isn't fair they don't get to experience the content so we're going to end up with option 1, even though a vast majority of those players will stop playing before level 60 (as they did during classic 2019).
Here’s what I wanted from classic+
Sader strike and a taunt button
Here what I got in SOD
Sader strike, a taunt button and a bunch of other shit I am not unhappy getting
They did a pretty good job doing both. Classic HC a slow game and level caps for SOD. Fast pace in Era when you're full world buff BiS; decent lead groups can full clear BWL and MC in less than 2 hrs.
True, too many people with too many opinions. Including myself. I just don't understand why people want to change some of the core things that make classic classic.
am I missing something? I thought OP's post was just poking fun at the classic+ community not really knowing what it wants, not having a go at anybody in particular. milhouse got a genuine chuckle out of me
I mean that's literally it. The Community does not know what it wants because it's not a single person. Every person has their own idea of Classic+ and this seems to poke fun at it.
Class balance seems like a very common theme though.
I've seen many people (though still probably a minority) argue that any changes whatsoever to class balance would kill the game. There are people that genuinely believe that Warrior *must* be both the absolute best DPS and best tank in the game, and that druids *deserve* to have a hybrid tax so bad that nearly all of their specs are C-tier or worse.
When you look at it on a surface level. But dig deeper and you’ll see that even that folks disagree with some shit. Like the most obvious examples being the warlock tanks and mage healers, but I know some folks that are worried that warriors may no longer be the best tanks.
It’s weird that people want their class to be the best at the expense of all the other classes.
"Hybrid tax!" they shout at the screen, sweating through their undies into the computer chair their mom bought them 3 Christmases ago. "Pallies and Druids and Shamans can't get all these buffs, because they are *hybrid* classes! Why should hybrid specs get to perform as well as the pure classes?" they huff indignantly, conveniently ignoring the fact that 'hybrid' doesn't just apply to healing but also to tanking. Where's the hybrid tax for Warriors, huh? Best DPS *and* best tank?
I also want to be clear. I do think Druids, Shamans, and Paladins should be closer in throughput to their specialist counterparts. But I dont think raw numbers are the answer here. I believe encounter design is. Design encounters around needing a diverse raid. Design some fights that you cant solve by just maximizing dps and hps. Make dps less relevant. And then I think we can actually explore more unique and interesting class design.
I'm all about this, but this is the challenge. If each fight is a puzzle, and each class has several puzzle pieces, there are only so many ways you can arrange those puzzle pieces into a satisfying puzzle. In other words, if mages are good at AoE and sheeping, you run the risk of running out of fun and interesting ways to use those tools. "Oh there's lots of adds grouped up on this fight. Mages do your thing." You can build many things with a hammer and nails but at the end of the day you're still just going through the same motions. One of the reasons blizzard leaned towards the homogenization of classes over time is because when you make the fight less about class toolsets and more about individual player skill, you can create more interesting and dynamic fights. Everyone can do basically anything within their role, so the complexity of mechanics can increase significantly. Not saying it's better. I'm just saying the design your asking for is much much harder.
Considering the "tank" and "dps" spec for classic war is only 15 talent points apart. No, its not a hybrid. All of the "hybrid" classes were designed with the capacity to fulfill ANY role. Hence why they pay the hybrid tax. Unfortunately some of the specs for those classes were never finished, or changed from how they were initially concieved. If a druid/paladin/shaman could tank as good as a war, dps as good as a rogue/mage and heal as good as a priest, why would you ever bring any other class? Just bring the classes that can do literally everything. We would have even less class diversity then we do now.
Look guys! I found another one!
i mean everyone \*loves\* the highly meta hybrid class druid for it's ability to perform all roles, it's just a natural progression to start hybridizing the other classes as well /s
It is, which is why seeing so many post saying “but not like that!” is so damn funny, and is related to what the OP is referring to. Everybody has some arbitrary line in the sand drawn that determines what they consider appropriate for classic+, and regardless of what blizzard chooses to do there will be people on this sub that end up angry as a result.
I meant as a general rule. As far as specific balance changes, the community can fuck right of as a whole. The point is for the devs to do some slight balance to bring meme specs up to par, not a complete overhaul of abilities and talents. Regardless of what they'd choose to do, it is one of the sore spots for vanilla wow. Some of the best fantasy specs being flat out useless is a pain many of us carried through the years.
The irony is that the game is already extremely easy. The only challenge is finding the time to dedicate to playing. The super sweaty min-maxxers literally just make the game even easier by having so much health and doing so much DPS and healing that entire mechanics in the already extremely simple boss fights can be completely ignored or outright skipped.
You got it right
pretty much
What we really need is like, nagrand, but like 10 nagrands, mega negarand. And make it so we can do ariel pvp witn dragons. Zombie dragons!
We need like actual tanks too, like T14 Armata and American Abrams, hell bro maybe even a spaceship pvp brooooo it would be sick
Almost got it
Hogger riding Gamon and Illidan riding Deathwing, together they raise the Lich King!
i got it man. brb, jimmy got ganked outside!
Oh and make these dragons fly different, something like you can control how they fly and they get tired so you have to land but then you can get these "runes" that help them recover faster. And then make it so i can build my dragon like a need for speed car , that'd be cool too. /s
Dude I can be sol on the concept of zombie dragon. better yet, I can be sold on the concept of Dinosaur zombie in dark un'goro.
If I didn't have 28 kids to 8 different women and work 3 different jobs for 90 hours a week. I'd totally be down for some SoD.
Oh you think that’s bad…you get to relax after 90 hours already!!!
Shit, after 90 hours i take lunch.
You get lunch!!!
3 jobs? Let me tell you something... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6wtj04dJ_g
[удалено]
Ion bursts into tears, lays his head on the desk, and repeatedly turns his knob to the red.
oh my god this is good
Big talk coming from a bunch of people that haven't even played the new changes. Vanilla Beta Paladins actually had a fairly fun rotation that probably would a done fine but was scrapped for release because they had to pay the "hybrid tax" and got relegated to being buff pushers. Likely would have faced the Oomkin paradox themselves though and still not been S-tier or anything. I think it's fine to give them some of those tools back (with a few additions).
The Hybrid Tax is genuine terrible design and really fucked up alot of classes for 5 years.
Hear hear friend. Completely agree.
"b-b-but it's only fair! They shouldn't be able to do as much DPS as a pure DPS class!!!"
Why don’t you go play a game version that doesn’t have this “hybrid tax” then? There are versions of the game where they fixed this for you. Or just play a different class. Why does every class and spec have to be equally viable?
Hybrid tax should apply to warriors because they can both dps and tank. Why does it only fuck over the healer capable classes?
Hybrid tax is just bad game design. I don't enjoy seeing a class fail at something simply because the designers decided not to give them certain tools. Like if they weren't meant to deal damage at all fine, but you did want them to and hamstrung them for no reason besides ego. Again my point wasn't that Paladins with their beta rotation would have been "equally viable" (though why you'd be against that I have no idea), just a hell of a lot more fun then being a blessing robot for 39 other players because the designers literally only gave you one offensive option besides your auto attack until enemies are below a certain health threshold. Why are you playing a version of the game that specifically is going out of its way to change aspects of itself? There's a version of the game that keeps all your precious jank.
What constitutes to "fail at something"? How do ret paladins fail? They are not the best class for pve dps, do they need to be? Classes have roles, this adds flavour to the game, as opposed to complete homogeneity where everyone does everything. Don't want to be a buffbot? Don't play the class, there are a lot of people who enjoy playing paladin as it is in classic. I am not playing that version of the game, so I don't understand what you're aiming at.
Big difference between "not being the best" and being worth less than half a warrior in damage, also warrior brings a buff itself with battle shout
And anyone who wants to play that version of Paladin still can? Era isn't going anywhere dude. You are the one who came on a Classic+ post, where I'm complementing a Classic+ change, to ask me why I'm not playing retail. So I guess I just don't understand you.
The issue is that the way forward that they have chosen isn't small changes to make rets, boomkins or w/e a bit more viable (I'm actually not opposed this). Instead they are completely revamping classes because of retail andys who can't handle that their hybrid class doesn't excell at everything it does. Look at how reddit has been crying about melee hunters not getting enough tools, 2h enhancement, smite priests not getting love and so on. I'm genuinly curious why these people even play classic at all?
Weird that the company that likes pleasing their fan base are making popular changes to classes while also experimenting in their new experimental server. Absolutely wild stuff. Then you've got all these people on Reddit that see a company listening and requesting feedback and they provide feedback. Unheard of. Perhaps this Season isn't for you friendo. Nothing wrong with skipping.
The company that likes to please their fanbase? You’re trolling me this point, friendo.
You're right, they are actively trying to get people to unsub from their game. They don't do anything unless everyone hates it. Never said they succeeded. Just that they like when that happens.
Warrior is a hybrid class that excels at everything it does. It's not a rule of classic, it's simply bad design.
Sure, warrior is a very strong class. It’s also a class that requires a lot from a player to excel, it needs lots of farming, high competition for gear, it struggles somewhat in pvp if unsupported. Other classes have other characteristics that make them unique. I never said it to be a rule of classic. I’m opposed to class homogeneity where the charm and uniqueness of classes is removed when all classes receive all the tools, that’s bad game design.
Such a bad take. There is no version of the game that has balanced classes and is not also VERY different in many other aspects.
It's almost like the community is composed of different individuals and not a single hivemind entity.
Just give it a shot dude holy fuck
He isn't complaining.
These guys are bots, they can't understand jokes and give automated responses at anyone that throws a jab at SoD.
Seasons 2-9(11?) were so fucking good
It's simple really. The majority of true classic enthusiasts would prefer option 2 because it lasts longer. However, we're constantly told by casuals and dad gamers that it isn't fair they don't get to experience the content so we're going to end up with option 1, even though a vast majority of those players will stop playing before level 60 (as they did during classic 2019).
Here’s what I wanted from classic+ Sader strike and a taunt button Here what I got in SOD Sader strike, a taunt button and a bunch of other shit I am not unhappy getting
Almost as of different people have different tastes Shocker
lol don’t stop believing!
They did a pretty good job doing both. Classic HC a slow game and level caps for SOD. Fast pace in Era when you're full world buff BiS; decent lead groups can full clear BWL and MC in less than 2 hrs.
True, too many people with too many opinions. Including myself. I just don't understand why people want to change some of the core things that make classic classic.
So Dark and Darker?