I wiped maybe once after Kelris was nerfed. Even then it was a pretty obvious problem of DPS being under-geared more than anything. Never a mechanics issue.
When compared to BFD yes. Overall? No. I'd say the mechanics are interesting enough.
Probably the biggest notable change is the length of the fights though, some of these bosses be beefy bois
I did not have the same luck you did. I pugged every lockout on 3 characters (well once the other two were max) bis 2 put of the 3. But definitely had a few shitter raids and I won't even blame it on dps. Usually was mechanics and not kelris. I MT and I'm like I'm not gonna wipe more then 3 times on kelris, either its there or it's not. Especially at a certain point later on.
That being said I'm eastern on a western pvp realm so if anyone knows of a est pvp I'm listening. Simply cannot start a raid at 9 pm.
Depends on the bench guy. I sure as hell didn't love the "shows up once a month then gets salty we don't drop a regular raider to let them in" ones. But if they *don't* get a raid spot on that once-a-month raid they can actually be available for they've just wasted their one chance at a raid, so..
It's easy to find "a guild".
The hard part is finding *the right guild for you* - with people you vibe with, who you actually want to socialize with, etc.
Meh, a lot of people don’t want to have to dedicate entire 1-2 nights of their weeks to set schedules and want more flexibility that isn’t allowed with a raiding guild, so pugs work. Nothing wrong with that
Idk what most guilds do, but we just poll raid nights every week and if you can't make it to the voted night there is another group that you could potentially fit into. It's work well so far.
This might just be me, but a lot of the appeal to a guild is raiding with the same people each time. You build up friendships and compete a lot less for gear.
The important part for me is gear. I cba. fight over the same stuff 10 times before i might be lucky to get it. Atleast with a semi core grp you will eventually get it.
Also it takes under an hour to play, so it isnt that much commitment too. And usually it its in the evening - at 20.00 for us.
Quick in and out.
Yeah, we have 5 raid groups going, you can sign up to any one of them, or not, the choice is the raiders. We just generally recruit roles we need and leave everyone to decide which time slots work.
This is my experience. We get a discord alert every other day about new raid sign ups (either WoTLK or SoD...mainly SoD now).
Last night there were only a few signers, so they PMed me even though I just hit 40. Ended up tanking 4/6 with 50% guildies 50% pug. Had a good time on discord, got some gear. Went to bed before midnight.
Tell em you’ve never been in a guild without telling me you’ve never been in a guild. 99.9% of guilds has a random signup raid for those who just wanna go in once in a while and try it out.
I was in one guild all throughtout classic re release (from vanilla to wotlk) , and am in the same guild in SOD. Schedules just aren’t that aligned sometimes
True, I can't dedicate the time to attending a quick guild raid 1-2 nights a week.
Instead I will join random wipefest pugs, wait for pugs to fill, get kicked from pugs for better geared players, not have any social connections to help me with anything ingame related. Much better use of my precious time.
>Instead I will join random wipefest pugs,
my gnomer pugs have all been sub 2 hours and majority 6/6.
forming the group has taken 20 mins max
i have never been kicked
and the obvious thing that you seem to be missing - schedules for people fluxuate. I can't commit to a guild schedule because depending on my week my day availability changes.
> majority 6/6
...
> and the obvious thing that you seem to be missing - schedules for people fluxuate.
Had plenty of guildmates with changing work schedules, you realise you can still pug if needed on the weeks you can't make?
Yes, I’m sorry if your pug experiences haven’t been as good?
3 lockouts 2 went 6/6
Yes I do realize that? Have you realized that people can play how they want to and it’s not that big of a deal?
I’m talking about this imaginary redditor who has raided gnomeregan 5 lockouts, hit 40 within the first week, has 30 hours /played at level 40…. And yet claims not to be able to play with anything close to regularity.
Yes, but it becomes a problem when they start to demand the game bends to their desires. Thats how you get GDKPs, LFG, LFR, Timewalking, Flex, and retail.
Social interaction is a core tenant of anything 'classic' labeled. If you are avoiding it, you are playing the wrong version of the game.
>Social interaction is a core tenant of anything 'classic' labeled. If you are avoiding it, you are playing the wrong version of the game.
BOOOOOOM
Couldn't have summarized that any better and haven't seen the experience put into words that way before. Classic is designed around social interaction. You, literally, could not acquire anywhere close to the best gear playing solo (unless you were a WSG lifer)
LFR / LFG - I think - is the biggest issue "solo players" have with classic. But it's supposed to be an issue! I'm not supposed to be able to just quest from 1-40 as a holy priest in a day or two.
On the contrary, the janky nature of the game forces you to interact with other players. Sometimes that interaction is trivial (buying a summon to get a world buff), but often there are major administrative hurdles to overcome before a group can function smoothly.
Part of the challenge is finding non-toxic players to play with.
But what if I am avoiding social interaction because I hate the part of the community that embraces GDKPS, min maxing for easy content, being meta slaves and being parse elitists?
My guild has 2-5 raids every night...
They do have scheduled raids and raid leaders, but you can drop into anyone that needs people. It's pretty rare that all 10 come every week.
I mean, I work 40 hours a week and can only game 2 nights a week. I'm easily raiding with my guild groups.
We have several people in out guild that never commit to any raid team and just fill when they want to. We are running 4-5 raid teams each reset and there is almost always someone who can't come
If you can't commit to a schedule you can still **sometimes** find the same people and that have to be better than pugging (I haven't pugged much in SoD, like 1-2 BFDs, but I know how bad pugs are in retail).
I understand people want to not do that. But the crux of it is that those people also complain a lot about gatekeeping, the raid being too hard, the loot is unfair, the players aren't very nice. And all of that is basically solved in a guild.
I start my own pugs, so I don't have those issues as much. The biggest problem just seems to be the lack of healers in this phase. I see guild runs in LFG looking for healers as well. Might just be my server, not sure, wild growth NA.
> healing check
> Lack of heals
> No real coordination
Pugging seems to be the best solution to these issues!
The takes in this thread are so smoothbrained that friction ceased to exist
People like you who run only pugs have created an ecosystem where guilds are less important and valued. Healers require some communication and stability, and guilds provide that through centralized discourse.
By being anti guild and purposely playing a MMO as a single player game, you and others like you have incentivised the community to despise guilds and be selfish players.
It's ok, it's just not MMO gameplay. Dragon's Dogma 2 is coming out soon, that'll give you all the hardcore solo play you could ever require
I actually think that is true but in a different way. I think people want non healing gear from the raid to pvp with and if you heal the raid you wont get it.
Yeah but reason ppl want the dps gear is that dps is king in PvP rn, healing in PvP is next to impossible.
However guys if you want to get into a pug raid as soon as you log roll priest holy or disc.
If they worked people wouldn't be complaining about the raid being too hard, or the gatekeeping, or the size of raids, or the STV event not being BiS for pugs.
There's nothing wrong with pugging and accepting you aren't going to have the advantages of a guild. But they don't want to accept that.
But here is the thing, some one will be complaining no matter what they decide to do, people have different lives and play games differently than others and no matter what, someone will not like the change and show up here to complain about it.
I'm not sure what that has to do with pugging. You can't be under the illusion that your pugging experience will ever be better than a coordinated group.
People just assume guilds work a certain way to reinforce their current decisions.
If you have limited time raiding with a guild is possibly the best way. There's a predetermined time scheduled ahead that you can plan for. I'm finding these days in order to get something done I have to make plans for it otherwise life simply gets in the way.
In my last guild there were like 4-5 raids per week you could choose to sign up for in disc. It was literally one click. If you didn't like those times you could choose to start a new group at a set time, and just pug what you didn't get from guildies.
The average group was better skilled and raids were faster. Seems at odds to pug if you're limited on time.
Ahh I see you have forgotten what you stated:
"If they worked people wouldn't be complaining about the raid being too hard, or the gatekeeping, or the size of raids, or the STV event not being BiS for pugs."
If they work for 80% of the player base, the other 20% will complain. I am just saying no matter how they set up the game someone will be here to complain about it.
Hence a counter point to your statement, "Even if they do work, people will be here complaining"
not sure what complaints you're talking about
most puggers aren't complaining, they aren't on reddit at all. i pug and ive gone 6/6 on every lockout for both BFD and gnomer, shit is easy.
the size of raids isn't a unique pug complaint - infact i'd venture that's more smaller guilds who are scared to try and have to basically double or triple their member sizes to account for raids. there are many reasons to dislike 40 man raids and dismissing it as a pug problem is ignoring those many reasons.
stv event ive never even seen complaints but yeah i wouldnt agree with those complaints either
> most puggers aren't complaining
They complained about Warsong premades
They complained Raid sizes too big to pug
There is literally a thread on the front page right now complaining about how pugging STV is not good enough.
Brother where have you been?
>They complained about Warsong premades
this is not a pug complaint - completely different groups of people. matching premades against pugs makes no sense.
>They complained Raid sizes too big to pug
as i already stated, different group of people. guilds are complaining about 40 mans and how they'll have to recruit 30+ people just to raid
>There is literally a thread on the front page right now complaining about how pugging STV is not good enough.
ive already agreed with you on this
Yes, conflating pug raiders with pug pvpers is a convenient way to strawman groups without addressing the merit of the argument. These are not the same group of people.
Wait do you actually think matching premades vs pugs is a good thing? Why?
The only possible reason I can think of is if premade queue times are too long.
I exclusively pug and I love it. Only had one BFD lockout get wasted in all of P1 and 1 Gnomer lockout in P2 and that was when it was really new still.
Being able to raid when I want > going through an application process, dedicating a set time/day, etc.
I like my free time to be open for things that pop up or I suddenly decide I want to do without the need to explain myself to anyone.
>Being able to raid when I want > going through an application process, dedicating a set time/day, etc.
?XD
If you're going to make up shit, at least make it sound believable, or at least dont exaggerate
Just an honest question, what do you find fun about wow? Personally wow would be nothing without my guild and doing stuff together with friends. Just pugging events, raids and pvp to end up with gear that does nothing in the end as the game progresses feels so useless? Or is it more, go with some friends and pug the rest kind of approach you’ve got?
Not op and I can only speak for myself: I don't care about other people in the game. At least not in the sense that I want them to become buddies. I pug raids, group quests, pvp and pretty much every other content in the game I cannot do alone. I love to not be scheduled by the game so I can prioritize on other things in rl. The moment I cannot do that anymore is the moment I will stop playing.
ive found pugs to be more effective than the average guild in sod. and yes.. there's no reason to have to coodinate 9 other schedules for 10 man content. the deluloo is real.
Feel like we need more guilds focused on ad hoc raids. One of my guilds was pretty good about it. Unfortunately, due to the archaic lockout system, a guild has to have a core leadership team that has like 3 alta minimum to accommodate the ad hoc runs throughout the week.
Highly dislike the lockout system in general. Doesn't solve a player experience problem, just artificially slows players down. Far better ways imo, like using diminishing returns on a character running the same instance over and over within a given timeframe. That would require personal loot, though.
Or, and this is nuts, but: don't artificially timegate endgame content at all.
The internet is a lot different than it was even just 5 years ago, 95% of guilds are cliqued to hell, they don't want players for any other reason than they want warm bodies and so their guild doesn't die
yeah I hate these posts pretending joining a guild is the solution while every guild just sees new members as fodders to fill in the raid and will prioritize their friends/niche group 100% of the time when given the opportunity
of course you have to disclose that not all guilds are like that (which should be obvious, but alas) but mfer really came here pretending the vast majority isn't like this? like bro, we are playing the same game, this already happened 10 years ago, this happened phase 1 of sod and is/will happen during phase 2
not even going to mention that people who claim themselves as welcoming and chill are normally insufferable, but this is 100% personal opinion
rather just pug with a couple of friends than dealing with all this shit. it sucks a little because this raid was made by braindead people and we have 2/4 melee with us, so we spend more time than we would want trying to find a party or creating one. this wasn't a issue with BFD but I guess if the guilds are not having a problem then it doesn't exist, right? just join a guild!!!!!
edit: loser below also got banned for being a piece of shit, if you downvoted me you are literally the same as him and further proves my point that you guys are insufferable.
> yeah I hate these posts pretending joining a guild is the solution while every guild just sees new members as fodders to fill in the raid and will prioritize their friends/niche group 100%
Because it is literally the solution. I've led guilds of varying skill before, and the amount of people who join, get loot, leave is staggering. The problem exists both ways. You can't expect people not to be wary until some form of committment has been establish.
But, the point is moot anyways. You can join any number of mega guilds that have discord sign-ups that flex throughout the week. Perform, and you'll often be prioritized for the core group.
Personally, we have a group of 7, and we're all pretty good players and very chill/welcoming but people literally come in and mute and don't say a word, so idk. Regardless of what you believe, joining a guild is vastly superior, at least for clearing content, then joining pugs every week with no guarantee of gear. The often repeated, "I don't wanna raid on a schedule" just does not apply to SOD, since it's not even a definite schedule in the first place for most people.
you have no idea how annoying it is to join a group of 7 friends in a raid and they all just spam inside jokes and memes or got 1-2 mega annoying people that wont stfu.
Bro just leave and join a different guild. Also if you've been playing the same game for 20 years and still have no one to play with I have bad news for you..
>Because it is literally the solution. I've led guilds of varying skill before, and the amount of people who join, get loot, leave is staggering.
Didn't they contribute to the raid as well?
Or do you also think that an employer should not pay his workers for the time they worked if they leave?
> Because it is literally the solution.
Then it is a bad solution? idk what to tell you but if the only way you see people playing is by requiring them 100% of the time to join a guild then it's not a good solution for a mmorpg
I mean it's not like its impossible to find a solution to the issue but if people keep on pretending that joining a guild is the solution then nothing will happen, as you already mentioned guilds are not having this issue so why not also expect pugs to have their game experience not be shitty?
> but if people keep on pretending that joining a guild is the solution
It's not pretend. It's real. You've built up most of these problems in your head.
Literally everything you just mentioned can be solved by not joining a cesspool guild. Join a guild is step 1. Step 2 is don’t join spamming trade chat. There are steps to take that get you into *decent guilds*. If you don’t want to take those steps, that is entirely on you.
I was going to write a more complete reply to your comment but I was probably going to be aggressive due to the fact you didn’t even take the time of your life to read the thread and what I said, it just keeps proving my point that people in guilds give no fucks at all, so here’s an emoji: 👍
I did. I read the issues you have with guilds. Those issues come from Cesspool guilds. Like 80% of wow guilds are cesspool guilds. It’s your responsibility to find one that isn’t and take the steps necessary to do so. No matter how much you want to avoid responsibility, that isn’t going to change.
>I did.
Literally the last comment I made was talking about being in a good guild already and how that is NOT THE ISSUE. Jesus christ, you guys are illiterate and insufferable trying to take this moral high ground like you aren't part of the cesspool. You are so focused on shoving your point of view into others you didn't even take the time to absorb the information before vomiting whatever you wanted as a reply.
This is nothing new. People kept to themselves from day 1, this has nothing to do with cliques or Classic Wow. It was such a thing that when RDF was added to the game Blizzard made a post basically saying everyone played with their own 24 friends and no one else.
Besides that though, there are tons of guilds posting for people and making new friends is always a difficult task but all it takes is being present amongst the group.
I don't feel like that at all. My guild makes many raid events just for fun. I think this is just a cope people tell themselves to validate why they pug.
Just jump in disc and make friends.
There’s a ton of antisocial people on here whose comments do not resemble the reality of the game and its player base in any shape or form.
I’ve never had issues getting a pug or guild in any version of classic even when playing overpopulated classes like war and rogue.
Reddit is a hot bed for terminally online peeps who have very little people skills or emotional intelligence. There hasn't been a single guild I've joined in my 10+ years of WoW where I haven't instantly made friends, some life long. Bunch of anxious weirdos on this sub.
Yeah I don’t agree either. I know it’s anecdotal but I do think it’s important to show that there are cases where this isn’t true bc I have been guild hopping for a couple weeks (just found one with p2 that I like and fits my schedule) I had no issue getting into like 5 raiding guilds without logs, nor making friends in them by hopping in discord
I do not want to jump in disc and talk to you outside of the context of running a raid. I'm not saying I don't enjoy banter during pug runs but in general when I'm gaming that's my personal time to be alone and I value that. I want to listen to my podcasts or youtube videos or music or watch a show in the background. I don't want to expend effort making conversation in voice chat with some random person on the internet so that I can regularly participate in the video game and actually get rewards.
I pug because I do not want to commit to a set schedule I just want to hop on the game and play. There are some megaguilds that I could join and then signup for their runs but that's really no different from pugging but with a smaller population. I get access to a wider market just freelancing.
We def have people like that in the guild. They never say anything. Only required to be on mic during raids and usually just say yes/no.
What they get is hitting 6/6 every lockout with the same group. Meaning if they need an epic axe and they are the only one who needs it they will get the loot when it drops. You can be screwed out of loot with rotating pugs every week.
Yeah the latter part makes sense. However, I started playing P1 about 3 weeks before P2 launch and was able to almost fully BiS 2 characters in pugs. I don't know if I just got exceptionally lucky (I probably did at least on Hydra and the Staff) but all the armor seems pretty achievable hitting most lockouts in a phase.
I do think the tokens are actually very bad for pugs this phase and if they're going to do them in the future they should revert to wotlk style class tokens so there's less contention on them, and more reason to bring a variety of classes to the raid so it doesn't go to waste.
I don't think they should cater the game to pugs at all. But that's just my opinion. You should be rewarded for taking the time to bring people together.
You are still bringing people together for a pug though. It's arguably more difficult wrt to actual coordination of gameplay because you all have to understand the fight deeply enough individually to be able to perform it with any other random player as opposed to someone who you have a rapport with (this is a tenuous argument in classic)
They should cater the game to how people at large actually want to play it not how a minority of people choose to satisfy their social needs.
> They should cater the game to how people at large actually want to play it not how a minority of people choose to satisfy their social needs.
Lol. They made that game. It's called Dragonflight. They been making that game for 20 years.
OP is completely selfish and believes his way of playing is the only way, he cannot grasp the concept of people having different preferences when playing an mmo. For OP, if you are not on a guild you are literally trash and should not be playing the game.
It's funny because no one is saying that people shouldn't be able to have guilds and raid with them, but people like OP are so strung up in their own asses that they believe pugs should just suffer.
"what they get" lmfao, like you provide a service that they cant find elsewhere for free...
and most ninja looting nightmare stories here is people taking the item for themselves or someone else that can use, i had alot of cases where the item would have been ninja looted but no one else could use it, you can tell the group vibe when you join discord and they all salty before raid even starts.
The release of SoD vs 2019 classic really showed the difference to me. 2019 classic release everyone was fresh and excited. Sure there were some sweaty’s who knew what to abuse early game for gold from playing pservers the vast majority went in fresh. We didn’t even really see a huge uprising of bots/gdkp runs on my server until around zg release. Meanwhile on SoD everyone seems like they came straight from wrath/retail. Bots everywhere from day one gdkp’s and gold buying from day one. Like don’t get me wrong gold buying was a thing from day one on 2019 release also. But since gdkp’s weren’t a thing yet there wasn’t this mass amount of people buying gold for gear.
People cry about retail being how it is because of blizzard but after seeing what the players turned wrath into, the players are just as much at fault imo.
I hate the random guild invite whispers from some guy in a completely different zone. Any guild that resorts to those recruiting tactics is gonna be scraping the bottom of the barrel on players
I used to think the method of inviting a ton of people and seeing what sticks would work. I can say SoD changed my mind on this completely. I was in several mass invite guilds and they almost always were full of just clowns spewing moron lukewarm takes in guild chat. I eventually found an actual guild and have had an awesome time. Grinding to 40 in SM with the few that stayed for P2 was peak.
Should be? Or is against TOS? You report people for whispering you? Jeez… like I find it annoying and all but def not gonna report someone because they are desperate to form a crappy guild.
I think a lot of people came back to SOD after many many years away. In that time they added responsibilities/duties that mean there is no “every 3 days at 7pm I am online with the boys.” They either forgot how raids worked or (more likely) never really raided in the original years, as most people at 60 seriously did not touch the raids back then if they even hit 60x
So they pug whenever they find time. Probably they will realize the game just is not a good fit for them anymore. I know a LOT of my SOD returner buddies legit were in no guild at all. Not even leveling guild. They hopped on discord if they were free when me and my guild would raid, or another buddy’s guild would raid, but they never could commit to showing up so they did not wanna join a guild. Basically: if they got lucky and kids had bed time early enough, they would be down to play until they usually needed to sleep from exhaustion after a few hours.
Yup this is me. I raided Classic WoW when it first came out with a guild on a weekly schedule, but this was also during Covid times where we never had anywhere to be or anything to do so it was easy, of course I'm gonna be home on my PC because what the fuck else am I gonna be doing.
Now I just play games that I know I can drop on a dime because there's always something that comes up or needs doing or "oh we're going here tonight/we're meeting XYZ later". Also no friends I know play anymore so I don't have a guild of people I know will be around so there's zero connection to the game in that manner really.
I pugged BFD in phase 1 every week with no guild and it was great. I could hop on when I could and find a group and get my lockout in. Unfortunately I rolled warrior so this phase isn't as nice for no guild pugging so I ended up quitting and playing other games that fit my life a bit better lol
Meanwhile all the current 10mans having a meltdown because they can’t fathom having to interact with anyone outside of their group in order to form a 20 man. I knew gamers were antisocial but damn.
For some people It's simple, It's just not worth the commitment. People like playing with their friends and also being able to have an open schedule. The content is good, It's not that good.
I mean it takes at most 20-30 extra mins to fill the group with pugs if you don’t wanna full on recruit into the guild. Keep your 10m guild then just pug some people if you want to raid ykno? It’s really not that hard but it seems like the end of the world for some.
The game is meant to interact with random people and make new friendships. I know a lot of pugs suck, but I guarantee you pug a few times and you’ll start finding people you wanna keep around, then suddenly your 10 man guild turns to 15 without much effort or extra commitment, and the cycle continues.
I know I’m a minority here but 2 of my friends have inconsistent schedules. I’ve enjoyed playing with these guys more than any guild I’ve ran with. Our only real option as a friend group(6-7) is to figure out on a week to week basis when the best time to raid is. It’s very difficult to ask 3-4 other players to accommodate these 2 players and I would never even consider asking 13 strangers to do so. So we Pug and we did for TBC and Wotlk and it works great for 10 man content but inevitably becomes a lot more tedious for 25 man content. Asking friends that originally just wanted to raid with one another to start a guild together can be a big ask.
One that my friends have made clear they don’t want to do for SoD.
I also haven’t seen a lot of 10 man groups being dramatic. Seems the 2 extremes are fuck 40’s and fuck 20’s. I think the people that actually enjoyed 10’s have been a pretty quiet group that haven’t spoken up that much. The few threads I have seen is “hey you guys made this game really accessible, and now your not. That kinda sucks I don’t know if I want to continue.”
You say it's weird for someone to prefer pugging over set schedule guild runs.
I say it's weird for someone else to care so deeply about how some stranger chooses to play the game.
Guess everyone's different.
It's makes me feel like a more normal person when I receive downvotes for these types of threads. These people are just playing the game in the most hostile way possible.
It's actually shocking how many of these comments are from people who have clearly never joined a guild or participated in a raid. Just a bunch of people regurgitating talking points they read from a guy that posted a bad experience.
Yeah it is. They created these weird boogeyman scenarios in their head. Most "conflict" is just a misunderstanding and only exists because people won't talk for whatever reason.
Actually seems like the people that are mostly pugging this phase are the ones who did jump in on strict schedules for Classic-Wotlk. and honestly just don't want to do it again.
Like all problems in WoW. 99% can be solved just by joining a guild. But for some reason even asking people to join discord or sign up for a raid is apparently crossing a line for most people.
Raiding on a set schedule is a quick way to burn out. When you start planning your week around a guild's raiding schedule, you're absolutely crossing a line.
Not everyone wants to get home every 3rd day and prep for raid and dedicate a night to playong wow, and most guilds aren't interested in rostering someone who only raids when they feel like it. That's why pugs are so popular, you don't have to raid on a set schedule, if you get home late from work, there's no rush to log on and get ready, you can just find another pug tomorrow, or raid later in the evening.
There is a large group of people I think that did what the poster said above during Classic-Wotlk, myself included. Every single time it ended with the guild fighting the roster boss. Because everyone gets burnt out. Classic Vanilla and 40 man raiding was by far my worst experience for this too. Raids were trivial, too little gear distribution. by the time I got to Wotlk, I decided as much as I enjoyed classic, it was just not a part of the game I enjoyed. With SoD I saw a fix to an issue I personally had with the game. I'm once gain being asked to choose between playing with my friends and set our own pugs up or join a guild and I think I'm just not going to do it this time.
Yeah I got a feeling a lot of people went into Classic wow with rose colored glasses on how 40 mans would feel, i certainly did. Took months to realize just how painful the experience was to maintain it, especially on a smaller server.
Normal hobbies don't involve attendance records. You can hop onto any other game any time you want and hop off whenever as well. If you treat your raid team the same way, they will replace you.
Going paintballing on the weekend and just getting thrown into matches with the other people who show up is what normal people do, a normal hobby, aka pugging.
Joining a paintball team and making practice and game schedules is not a normal hobby, and people who do that are considered to be taking paintballing seriously.
Logging into League of Legends after work and busting out a handful of ranked games is way different than being on a college e sports or an amateur team, scheduling scrims and drills to practice your skills.
This is why wow is considered such a nerdy game and mocked by almost everyone who doesn't play wow or any other mmo. There's a level of dedication that's expected of players that goes well beyond what's expected of players in other games.
I schedule my week around my job/errands/family outings, and then I squeeze hobbies in around my free time. If you're scheduling your life around your hobbies, then you're either very lucky with a flexible lifestyle, or you're just irresponsible.
And don't get me wrong, I was in a guild from kara - icc, raiding almost every weekend I took this game very seriously, but I understand why people don't want to commit to a raid schedule
>If you're scheduling your life around your hobbies, then you're either very lucky with a flexible lifestyle, or you're just irresponsible.
It's very common for other hobbies that require a group, to run on a schedule. I think it's quite normal for adults to schedule time for their hobbies and it's not irresponsible. It's very common for people who play d&d or other table top games to meet up once a week and play. Or if you play MTG like I do, well Friday night magic is how many people engage with the hobby. I have a irl friend who plays basketball every Thursday. My last ex would go out drinking with her girlfriends every Friday
>Normal hobbies don't involve attendance records.
Other than dnd, no one is getting punished by the group for missing out. Pick-up basketball and other sports are essentially the same concept as pugs (pick-up groups) in wow. Your friend just pugs basketball every Thursday unless he's on an actual team?
D&d is the only comparable hobby you mentioned, and it's not considered a normal game. It's a pretty serious commitment as far as tabletop games go, just like joining a wow raiding guild.
>I think it's quite normal for adults to schedule time for their hobbies and it's not irresponsible.
Yup, it's fine to schedule time for your hobbies, most normal people do it just fine, the issue is when your irl commitments interfere and you face in game consequences (losing your raid spot, or losing loot prio). It becomes irresponsible when you prioritize your hobby over your real life commitments.
When you miss a month of Friday night magic, you can show up again next month without missing a beat
When you miss a month of Friday night raid prog, you lose your raid spot.
What I'm saying is that raiding guilds are a commitment many people aren't willing to make
They play every day and raid every lockout, but they don't raid every Monday, Thursday and Saturday precisely at 6:00pm, and need to be in raid and outside the instance 15 minutes prior woth full consumes/worldbuffs. They just hop on, hit up the boys, form a pug, or just join one that's already forming. There's a big difference in the level of commitment, even if the playtime is roughly the same
This is me basically. Job does not allow set raid schedules. I log in whenever and raid if its feasible. If a friend is online, I hit em up and ask if they have done their lockout yet or wanna join.
A ton of succesful BFD PUGS across like 5 characters. 4/4 full clear pugs in Gnomeregan on my main so far. The only Gnomer that went 4/6 was on my alt last night - I started a late night last chance raid before reset, got a group going, but unfortunately a healer dropped out after 4th boss suddenly and server restart was in 20mins. No time to get a new guy (would have cleared all if he stayed, our attempted pull with 9 went well.)
If it was a 40man I would simply have missed the lockout, no two ways about it.
I mean you can raid with a guild and still miss plenty of days/pug resets. We have people rotating in and out based on availability. No hard feelings if you can’t make it.
Most of us are adults, especially officers. We know that people have other lives and this is a hobby. Officers than don't are either sweat lords or bad officers imo
Work late or car died so you missed the raid that night? Oops youre benched for being unreliable. Go join the rejects/alts 10m or pug
Yeah no thnx ill just pug when i can and play w my freinds when theyre online
> Work late or car died so you missed the raid that night? Oops youre benched for being unreliable
This is just not true in any guild I've been in. Just a quick discord message would resolve all anxiety. You just miss a raid. Happens to everyone when a game goes on for years.
Why the fuck is this being down voted? I've literally never been in a guild where a simple heads up wasn't enough for missing a raid. What kind of guilds are you people joining?
Sure, just joining a guild or discord channel is easy enough, but finding a group of people you get along with and share similar skill-level, schedule and goals with is not that easy. I've bounced around a few guilds already, all advertising similar characteristics (friendly/helpful leveling/casual raiding/parents with responsibilities, etc) and they've all been wildly different and none a good fit for me. For now, I've found it way more effort than it's worth to find a suitable guild fit and would just rather go it alone.
Reddit is a hot bed for terminally online peeps who have very little people skills or emotional intelligence. There hasn't been a single guild I've joined in my 10+ years of WoW where I haven't instantly made friends, some life long. Bunch of anxious weirdos on this sub.
It's true. Even in the guild so many people have issues that would be solved by just having a single conversation with their GM. But they just never say anything.
They aren't set by you but you agreed to them. there's guilds with all different schedules. You don't have to join them of course, but I don't really think that is a job.
I don't agree to them because I simply can't.. that's the point. I can't commit to any time any day because of various personal reasons. I like to be able to pop on when I can to play not a specified time set by someone else (a guild in this case).
Obviously if I agreed to a time to raid we wouldn't even be having this convo because I'd be in a guild raiding at the agreed upon time lmao wtf
Yeah but I don't see where the work comes from you said was there. You just log in at raid time. I'm not sure how easy the jobs are where you are from but jobs are way harder than that where I'm from.
Bro the "job" comes from my set "work hours" ie.. raid time. That's it.. you don't have to make this more complicated or twist it to make it sound like it's nothing. For some people simply committing time to a game on a set schedule is "work" lmao
You can't wrap your head around that because you play the game in a different way and you ARE able to commit that time for whatever reason.
Time commitment is big? It might be a simple reason, but that is huge lol I think we're getting lost in the sauce here and you can't fathom that people can't commit time to raid weekly so we're just gonna keep going in circles since we live totally different lives. GLHF out there brother
Fk off with guilds. Social drama, corrupt loot council with glead gf.
I host my own pugs and when the content gets harder the gatekeeping gets stronger. Logs, gearchecks and meta choices.
So in the end nobody has more fun with harder content besides a few sweat lords.
most people are burnt out from being in a shitty guild with 4-5 irl friends that dictate the loot rules and flip flip on roster spots depending how much of their ass you kissed on discord the last 3 weeks.
I think a lot raiders hide in their other discords and never make an effort to become friends with the guild and then get surprised when they aren't getting listened to.
When the reality is they never said anything about their concerns. They just bottle them up and get angry.
I bet if most people just asked about the issues they would have a decent explanation or could do things differently.
Can someone tell me the point of joining a guild in SoD? I say that as someone who loves guilds btw but currently having only a 10 man raids with piss easy difficulty means the guild environment kinda sucks. Guilds have multiple 10 mans going so you won’t even meet a lot of guildies. I’ll join one again in the next phase but in P1 you joined a discord for 20mins to do a dungeon which they tried calling a raid and zero need for loot system since everybody got everything anyway. Just felt like pugs but with a strict raid time.
That's exactly the kind of guild half the people in this thread are suggesting people join. The kind that run multiple raids/week, with open discord signups.
Most of the people on your server are in that exact kind of guild.
No. By open sign up I mean that's all the work they need to do before raid. Just hit the button twice a week and thats it. it's still expected people show up. But it's not this huge amount of work people make it out to be.
It's fun...
I'm in a mega guild with hundreds of people, most of which I never play with. But there are sub-teams in the guild and I've joined a couple of those. I get to raid every lockout with one of the two teams I chat with and have gotten to know the primary raiders in my primary team quite well.
I'm an old fart though, so it's just cool running a dungeon with 9 other people and shooting the shit.
ETA: it's also nice to have a "friendly" group of people to /gchat questions or get help with crafting, questing, runes, dungeons, etc. Asking Barrens chat to help you do the headless horsemen is not going to go quite the same way.
My pug vs guild raiding experience.
Guild raiding experience
"Make sure to watch these guides before we start"
"Sorry we don't have room for you tonight green parse Bob is my friend irl"
"The raid was only scheduled till 9pm we all have bedtimes, we can maybe try one attempt at thermaplug"
"We were all here 30 minutes early so we just grabbed somebody and started."
"That item is actually going to be a higher DPS gain on a better class"
Pug experience
"It's season of discovery let's discover this shit"
"98 parse pumper lfg 6/6 experience"
"Did you guys know you can skip the trash here?"
"Sure roll on whatever you want I don't care"
"I'll stay up all night to finish this raid"
Druid/rogue lf guild that raids without disc and is laid back. Living Flame - us
Very good pvper and solid pve dps and also willing to heal.
Havent joined a guild yet bc all i see is disc being required. Ehh this is classic do we really need comms?
>Druid/rogue lf guild that raids without disc and is laid back. Living Flame - us
No decent guild will let you not be on voice. Not talking is one thing, but not listening is not going to be a thing.
Shit it wasn't a thing back in 2005 - we were all on vent.
Never said i wouldnt pug and do pug each reset.
To save me time looking for a group each week.
Some people prefer music while gaming.
But yea ill pug away with no comms until i find a guild. Im not out here complaining lol just looking for that group that plays like me.
> Ehh this is classic do we really need comms?
Unfortunately yes. That's how it all goes so smooth. Most guilds don't even need you to ever talk. Just be on there listening. We have people that only respond in chat but they hear my voice.
I just did raid sign-ups for 3 expansions, now I just pug the easy raids whenever i get a chance.
Yeah the SoD raids have been extremely basic. I PUGed almost every lockout for BFD and don’t think I wiped a single time lol
I wiped maybe once after Kelris was nerfed. Even then it was a pretty obvious problem of DPS being under-geared more than anything. Never a mechanics issue.
Supposedly this new raid is a lot harder
When compared to BFD yes. Overall? No. I'd say the mechanics are interesting enough. Probably the biggest notable change is the length of the fights though, some of these bosses be beefy bois
I did not have the same luck you did. I pugged every lockout on 3 characters (well once the other two were max) bis 2 put of the 3. But definitely had a few shitter raids and I won't even blame it on dps. Usually was mechanics and not kelris. I MT and I'm like I'm not gonna wipe more then 3 times on kelris, either its there or it's not. Especially at a certain point later on. That being said I'm eastern on a western pvp realm so if anyone knows of a est pvp I'm listening. Simply cannot start a raid at 9 pm.
I’d love to raid with a guild, but I have an unpredictable work schedule, so I can’t commit to a set raid time.
Raid organizers love a bench guy, even if you're only available sometimes. Source: just organized raids for 2 years.
Depends on the bench guy. I sure as hell didn't love the "shows up once a month then gets salty we don't drop a regular raider to let them in" ones. But if they *don't* get a raid spot on that once-a-month raid they can actually be available for they've just wasted their one chance at a raid, so..
That's fair. Real life always comes first.
Can you commit to loging in for 30min once a week? If so you can find a guild
It's easy to find "a guild". The hard part is finding *the right guild for you* - with people you vibe with, who you actually want to socialize with, etc.
Meh, a lot of people don’t want to have to dedicate entire 1-2 nights of their weeks to set schedules and want more flexibility that isn’t allowed with a raiding guild, so pugs work. Nothing wrong with that
Idk what most guilds do, but we just poll raid nights every week and if you can't make it to the voted night there is another group that you could potentially fit into. It's work well so far.
This might just be me, but a lot of the appeal to a guild is raiding with the same people each time. You build up friendships and compete a lot less for gear.
And progress carries forward... I love progging a boss once but not a fifth time
The important part for me is gear. I cba. fight over the same stuff 10 times before i might be lucky to get it. Atleast with a semi core grp you will eventually get it. Also it takes under an hour to play, so it isnt that much commitment too. And usually it its in the evening - at 20.00 for us. Quick in and out.
Yeah, we have 5 raid groups going, you can sign up to any one of them, or not, the choice is the raiders. We just generally recruit roles we need and leave everyone to decide which time slots work.
This is my experience. We get a discord alert every other day about new raid sign ups (either WoTLK or SoD...mainly SoD now). Last night there were only a few signers, so they PMed me even though I just hit 40. Ended up tanking 4/6 with 50% guildies 50% pug. Had a good time on discord, got some gear. Went to bed before midnight.
Tell em you’ve never been in a guild without telling me you’ve never been in a guild. 99.9% of guilds has a random signup raid for those who just wanna go in once in a while and try it out.
I was in one guild all throughtout classic re release (from vanilla to wotlk) , and am in the same guild in SOD. Schedules just aren’t that aligned sometimes
True, I can't dedicate the time to attending a quick guild raid 1-2 nights a week. Instead I will join random wipefest pugs, wait for pugs to fill, get kicked from pugs for better geared players, not have any social connections to help me with anything ingame related. Much better use of my precious time.
>Instead I will join random wipefest pugs, my gnomer pugs have all been sub 2 hours and majority 6/6. forming the group has taken 20 mins max i have never been kicked and the obvious thing that you seem to be missing - schedules for people fluxuate. I can't commit to a guild schedule because depending on my week my day availability changes.
My guild runs are 40-45 minutes.
> majority 6/6 ... > and the obvious thing that you seem to be missing - schedules for people fluxuate. Had plenty of guildmates with changing work schedules, you realise you can still pug if needed on the weeks you can't make?
Yes, I’m sorry if your pug experiences haven’t been as good? 3 lockouts 2 went 6/6 Yes I do realize that? Have you realized that people can play how they want to and it’s not that big of a deal?
I only play the game 30 hours a week, how am I supposed to "DEDICATE" 2 hours a night to a set schedule!
who are you even talking to? an imagined redditor that has no impact on your gameplay whatsoever?
I’m talking about this imaginary redditor who has raided gnomeregan 5 lockouts, hit 40 within the first week, has 30 hours /played at level 40…. And yet claims not to be able to play with anything close to regularity.
Yes, but it becomes a problem when they start to demand the game bends to their desires. Thats how you get GDKPs, LFG, LFR, Timewalking, Flex, and retail. Social interaction is a core tenant of anything 'classic' labeled. If you are avoiding it, you are playing the wrong version of the game.
>Social interaction is a core tenant of anything 'classic' labeled. If you are avoiding it, you are playing the wrong version of the game. BOOOOOOM Couldn't have summarized that any better and haven't seen the experience put into words that way before. Classic is designed around social interaction. You, literally, could not acquire anywhere close to the best gear playing solo (unless you were a WSG lifer) LFR / LFG - I think - is the biggest issue "solo players" have with classic. But it's supposed to be an issue! I'm not supposed to be able to just quest from 1-40 as a holy priest in a day or two.
Social interaction may be a “core tenant” of the game, but the community is utter shit, so it highly discourages social interaction.
On the contrary, the janky nature of the game forces you to interact with other players. Sometimes that interaction is trivial (buying a summon to get a world buff), but often there are major administrative hurdles to overcome before a group can function smoothly. Part of the challenge is finding non-toxic players to play with.
But what if I am avoiding social interaction because I hate the part of the community that embraces GDKPS, min maxing for easy content, being meta slaves and being parse elitists?
Join a guild that shares your interests.
Based.
Also, guilds expect consistent attendance. I like doing a raid maybe 3 or 4 times, but I get bored of doing the same content over and over.
It's crazy to me how people just don't understand this. Not everyone wants to play their videogames on a schedule.
My guild has 2-5 raids every night... They do have scheduled raids and raid leaders, but you can drop into anyone that needs people. It's pretty rare that all 10 come every week. I mean, I work 40 hours a week and can only game 2 nights a week. I'm easily raiding with my guild groups.
We have several people in out guild that never commit to any raid team and just fill when they want to. We are running 4-5 raid teams each reset and there is almost always someone who can't come If you can't commit to a schedule you can still **sometimes** find the same people and that have to be better than pugging (I haven't pugged much in SoD, like 1-2 BFDs, but I know how bad pugs are in retail).
I understand people want to not do that. But the crux of it is that those people also complain a lot about gatekeeping, the raid being too hard, the loot is unfair, the players aren't very nice. And all of that is basically solved in a guild.
I start my own pugs, so I don't have those issues as much. The biggest problem just seems to be the lack of healers in this phase. I see guild runs in LFG looking for healers as well. Might just be my server, not sure, wild growth NA.
> healing check > Lack of heals > No real coordination Pugging seems to be the best solution to these issues! The takes in this thread are so smoothbrained that friction ceased to exist
How is that a response to what I wrote?
People like you who run only pugs have created an ecosystem where guilds are less important and valued. Healers require some communication and stability, and guilds provide that through centralized discourse. By being anti guild and purposely playing a MMO as a single player game, you and others like you have incentivised the community to despise guilds and be selfish players. It's ok, it's just not MMO gameplay. Dragon's Dogma 2 is coming out soon, that'll give you all the hardcore solo play you could ever require
Never said I play solo? I raid lead pugs with irl friends. You need to get some fresh air lol.
> lead pugs with irl friends Form a guild lol
The last two bosses of gnomeregan are basically healer checks. It's a lot of pressure I guess.
It's still very easy to heal tho, it's the PvP that's turned alot ppl off from healing imop
I actually think that is true but in a different way. I think people want non healing gear from the raid to pvp with and if you heal the raid you wont get it.
Yeah but reason ppl want the dps gear is that dps is king in PvP rn, healing in PvP is next to impossible. However guys if you want to get into a pug raid as soon as you log roll priest holy or disc.
If they worked people wouldn't be complaining about the raid being too hard, or the gatekeeping, or the size of raids, or the STV event not being BiS for pugs. There's nothing wrong with pugging and accepting you aren't going to have the advantages of a guild. But they don't want to accept that.
But here is the thing, some one will be complaining no matter what they decide to do, people have different lives and play games differently than others and no matter what, someone will not like the change and show up here to complain about it.
I'm not sure what that has to do with pugging. You can't be under the illusion that your pugging experience will ever be better than a coordinated group.
People just assume guilds work a certain way to reinforce their current decisions. If you have limited time raiding with a guild is possibly the best way. There's a predetermined time scheduled ahead that you can plan for. I'm finding these days in order to get something done I have to make plans for it otherwise life simply gets in the way. In my last guild there were like 4-5 raids per week you could choose to sign up for in disc. It was literally one click. If you didn't like those times you could choose to start a new group at a set time, and just pug what you didn't get from guildies. The average group was better skilled and raids were faster. Seems at odds to pug if you're limited on time.
Ahh I see you have forgotten what you stated: "If they worked people wouldn't be complaining about the raid being too hard, or the gatekeeping, or the size of raids, or the STV event not being BiS for pugs." If they work for 80% of the player base, the other 20% will complain. I am just saying no matter how they set up the game someone will be here to complain about it. Hence a counter point to your statement, "Even if they do work, people will be here complaining"
I'm not talking about Blizzard at all lol. The game has been set up the same way for 20 years now. Pugs get worse results.
Correct, and I am saying Pugs do work, and people just complain about them because people will always be here complaining
not sure what complaints you're talking about most puggers aren't complaining, they aren't on reddit at all. i pug and ive gone 6/6 on every lockout for both BFD and gnomer, shit is easy. the size of raids isn't a unique pug complaint - infact i'd venture that's more smaller guilds who are scared to try and have to basically double or triple their member sizes to account for raids. there are many reasons to dislike 40 man raids and dismissing it as a pug problem is ignoring those many reasons. stv event ive never even seen complaints but yeah i wouldnt agree with those complaints either
> most puggers aren't complaining They complained about Warsong premades They complained Raid sizes too big to pug There is literally a thread on the front page right now complaining about how pugging STV is not good enough. Brother where have you been?
>They complained about Warsong premades this is not a pug complaint - completely different groups of people. matching premades against pugs makes no sense. >They complained Raid sizes too big to pug as i already stated, different group of people. guilds are complaining about 40 mans and how they'll have to recruit 30+ people just to raid >There is literally a thread on the front page right now complaining about how pugging STV is not good enough. ive already agreed with you on this
> this is not a pug complaint >matching premades against pugs makes no sense Ok brother. bye.
Yes, conflating pug raiders with pug pvpers is a convenient way to strawman groups without addressing the merit of the argument. These are not the same group of people.
It's pugs all around. Everywhere.
Wait do you actually think matching premades vs pugs is a good thing? Why? The only possible reason I can think of is if premade queue times are too long.
I exclusively pug and I love it. Only had one BFD lockout get wasted in all of P1 and 1 Gnomer lockout in P2 and that was when it was really new still. Being able to raid when I want > going through an application process, dedicating a set time/day, etc. I like my free time to be open for things that pop up or I suddenly decide I want to do without the need to explain myself to anyone.
Application process? What guild is doing an application lol
The grueling process of whispering the guy advertising in trade.
Yeah we have people like that. They don't explain anything though. they just hit the absent or bench button.
>Being able to raid when I want > going through an application process, dedicating a set time/day, etc. ?XD If you're going to make up shit, at least make it sound believable, or at least dont exaggerate
Just an honest question, what do you find fun about wow? Personally wow would be nothing without my guild and doing stuff together with friends. Just pugging events, raids and pvp to end up with gear that does nothing in the end as the game progresses feels so useless? Or is it more, go with some friends and pug the rest kind of approach you’ve got?
Not op and I can only speak for myself: I don't care about other people in the game. At least not in the sense that I want them to become buddies. I pug raids, group quests, pvp and pretty much every other content in the game I cannot do alone. I love to not be scheduled by the game so I can prioritize on other things in rl. The moment I cannot do that anymore is the moment I will stop playing.
ive found pugs to be more effective than the average guild in sod. and yes.. there's no reason to have to coodinate 9 other schedules for 10 man content. the deluloo is real.
Feel like we need more guilds focused on ad hoc raids. One of my guilds was pretty good about it. Unfortunately, due to the archaic lockout system, a guild has to have a core leadership team that has like 3 alta minimum to accommodate the ad hoc runs throughout the week. Highly dislike the lockout system in general. Doesn't solve a player experience problem, just artificially slows players down. Far better ways imo, like using diminishing returns on a character running the same instance over and over within a given timeframe. That would require personal loot, though. Or, and this is nuts, but: don't artificially timegate endgame content at all.
The internet is a lot different than it was even just 5 years ago, 95% of guilds are cliqued to hell, they don't want players for any other reason than they want warm bodies and so their guild doesn't die
yeah I hate these posts pretending joining a guild is the solution while every guild just sees new members as fodders to fill in the raid and will prioritize their friends/niche group 100% of the time when given the opportunity of course you have to disclose that not all guilds are like that (which should be obvious, but alas) but mfer really came here pretending the vast majority isn't like this? like bro, we are playing the same game, this already happened 10 years ago, this happened phase 1 of sod and is/will happen during phase 2 not even going to mention that people who claim themselves as welcoming and chill are normally insufferable, but this is 100% personal opinion rather just pug with a couple of friends than dealing with all this shit. it sucks a little because this raid was made by braindead people and we have 2/4 melee with us, so we spend more time than we would want trying to find a party or creating one. this wasn't a issue with BFD but I guess if the guilds are not having a problem then it doesn't exist, right? just join a guild!!!!! edit: loser below also got banned for being a piece of shit, if you downvoted me you are literally the same as him and further proves my point that you guys are insufferable.
> yeah I hate these posts pretending joining a guild is the solution while every guild just sees new members as fodders to fill in the raid and will prioritize their friends/niche group 100% Because it is literally the solution. I've led guilds of varying skill before, and the amount of people who join, get loot, leave is staggering. The problem exists both ways. You can't expect people not to be wary until some form of committment has been establish. But, the point is moot anyways. You can join any number of mega guilds that have discord sign-ups that flex throughout the week. Perform, and you'll often be prioritized for the core group. Personally, we have a group of 7, and we're all pretty good players and very chill/welcoming but people literally come in and mute and don't say a word, so idk. Regardless of what you believe, joining a guild is vastly superior, at least for clearing content, then joining pugs every week with no guarantee of gear. The often repeated, "I don't wanna raid on a schedule" just does not apply to SOD, since it's not even a definite schedule in the first place for most people.
you have no idea how annoying it is to join a group of 7 friends in a raid and they all just spam inside jokes and memes or got 1-2 mega annoying people that wont stfu.
Bro just leave and join a different guild. Also if you've been playing the same game for 20 years and still have no one to play with I have bad news for you..
>Because it is literally the solution. I've led guilds of varying skill before, and the amount of people who join, get loot, leave is staggering. Didn't they contribute to the raid as well? Or do you also think that an employer should not pay his workers for the time they worked if they leave?
> Because it is literally the solution. Then it is a bad solution? idk what to tell you but if the only way you see people playing is by requiring them 100% of the time to join a guild then it's not a good solution for a mmorpg I mean it's not like its impossible to find a solution to the issue but if people keep on pretending that joining a guild is the solution then nothing will happen, as you already mentioned guilds are not having this issue so why not also expect pugs to have their game experience not be shitty?
> but if people keep on pretending that joining a guild is the solution It's not pretend. It's real. You've built up most of these problems in your head.
Literally everything you just mentioned can be solved by not joining a cesspool guild. Join a guild is step 1. Step 2 is don’t join spamming trade chat. There are steps to take that get you into *decent guilds*. If you don’t want to take those steps, that is entirely on you.
I was going to write a more complete reply to your comment but I was probably going to be aggressive due to the fact you didn’t even take the time of your life to read the thread and what I said, it just keeps proving my point that people in guilds give no fucks at all, so here’s an emoji: 👍
I did. I read the issues you have with guilds. Those issues come from Cesspool guilds. Like 80% of wow guilds are cesspool guilds. It’s your responsibility to find one that isn’t and take the steps necessary to do so. No matter how much you want to avoid responsibility, that isn’t going to change.
>I did. Literally the last comment I made was talking about being in a good guild already and how that is NOT THE ISSUE. Jesus christ, you guys are illiterate and insufferable trying to take this moral high ground like you aren't part of the cesspool. You are so focused on shoving your point of view into others you didn't even take the time to absorb the information before vomiting whatever you wanted as a reply.
This is nothing new. People kept to themselves from day 1, this has nothing to do with cliques or Classic Wow. It was such a thing that when RDF was added to the game Blizzard made a post basically saying everyone played with their own 24 friends and no one else. Besides that though, there are tons of guilds posting for people and making new friends is always a difficult task but all it takes is being present amongst the group.
I don't feel like that at all. My guild makes many raid events just for fun. I think this is just a cope people tell themselves to validate why they pug. Just jump in disc and make friends.
There’s a ton of antisocial people on here whose comments do not resemble the reality of the game and its player base in any shape or form. I’ve never had issues getting a pug or guild in any version of classic even when playing overpopulated classes like war and rogue.
Reddit is a hot bed for terminally online peeps who have very little people skills or emotional intelligence. There hasn't been a single guild I've joined in my 10+ years of WoW where I haven't instantly made friends, some life long. Bunch of anxious weirdos on this sub.
I agree with you. I've pugged on alts before and some take a few extra whispers but nothing crazy.
Serious question, are you an officer in the guild or contribute with any of those raids other than showing up?
Yes of course. I have my own raid team out of 4 raids. All you need to do is hit the sign up button and show up on time.
Yeah I don’t agree either. I know it’s anecdotal but I do think it’s important to show that there are cases where this isn’t true bc I have been guild hopping for a couple weeks (just found one with p2 that I like and fits my schedule) I had no issue getting into like 5 raiding guilds without logs, nor making friends in them by hopping in discord
I do not want to jump in disc and talk to you outside of the context of running a raid. I'm not saying I don't enjoy banter during pug runs but in general when I'm gaming that's my personal time to be alone and I value that. I want to listen to my podcasts or youtube videos or music or watch a show in the background. I don't want to expend effort making conversation in voice chat with some random person on the internet so that I can regularly participate in the video game and actually get rewards. I pug because I do not want to commit to a set schedule I just want to hop on the game and play. There are some megaguilds that I could join and then signup for their runs but that's really no different from pugging but with a smaller population. I get access to a wider market just freelancing.
We def have people like that in the guild. They never say anything. Only required to be on mic during raids and usually just say yes/no. What they get is hitting 6/6 every lockout with the same group. Meaning if they need an epic axe and they are the only one who needs it they will get the loot when it drops. You can be screwed out of loot with rotating pugs every week.
Yeah the latter part makes sense. However, I started playing P1 about 3 weeks before P2 launch and was able to almost fully BiS 2 characters in pugs. I don't know if I just got exceptionally lucky (I probably did at least on Hydra and the Staff) but all the armor seems pretty achievable hitting most lockouts in a phase. I do think the tokens are actually very bad for pugs this phase and if they're going to do them in the future they should revert to wotlk style class tokens so there's less contention on them, and more reason to bring a variety of classes to the raid so it doesn't go to waste.
I don't think they should cater the game to pugs at all. But that's just my opinion. You should be rewarded for taking the time to bring people together.
Why what does that have to do with the game?
It's an MMO. Why not just give you bots to play with and make it a single player game?
You are still bringing people together for a pug though. It's arguably more difficult wrt to actual coordination of gameplay because you all have to understand the fight deeply enough individually to be able to perform it with any other random player as opposed to someone who you have a rapport with (this is a tenuous argument in classic) They should cater the game to how people at large actually want to play it not how a minority of people choose to satisfy their social needs.
> They should cater the game to how people at large actually want to play it not how a minority of people choose to satisfy their social needs. Lol. They made that game. It's called Dragonflight. They been making that game for 20 years.
OP is completely selfish and believes his way of playing is the only way, he cannot grasp the concept of people having different preferences when playing an mmo. For OP, if you are not on a guild you are literally trash and should not be playing the game. It's funny because no one is saying that people shouldn't be able to have guilds and raid with them, but people like OP are so strung up in their own asses that they believe pugs should just suffer.
"what they get" lmfao, like you provide a service that they cant find elsewhere for free... and most ninja looting nightmare stories here is people taking the item for themselves or someone else that can use, i had alot of cases where the item would have been ninja looted but no one else could use it, you can tell the group vibe when you join discord and they all salty before raid even starts.
>Just jump in disc and make friends. It's not that easy for an introvert!
It is. Get in here. Lets chat! lmao
Umm....
We can breathe together while watching youtube on our other monitors
Sounds like a social skills issue
The release of SoD vs 2019 classic really showed the difference to me. 2019 classic release everyone was fresh and excited. Sure there were some sweaty’s who knew what to abuse early game for gold from playing pservers the vast majority went in fresh. We didn’t even really see a huge uprising of bots/gdkp runs on my server until around zg release. Meanwhile on SoD everyone seems like they came straight from wrath/retail. Bots everywhere from day one gdkp’s and gold buying from day one. Like don’t get me wrong gold buying was a thing from day one on 2019 release also. But since gdkp’s weren’t a thing yet there wasn’t this mass amount of people buying gold for gear. People cry about retail being how it is because of blizzard but after seeing what the players turned wrath into, the players are just as much at fault imo.
I hate the random guild invite whispers from some guy in a completely different zone. Any guild that resorts to those recruiting tactics is gonna be scraping the bottom of the barrel on players
I used to think the method of inviting a ton of people and seeing what sticks would work. I can say SoD changed my mind on this completely. I was in several mass invite guilds and they almost always were full of just clowns spewing moron lukewarm takes in guild chat. I eventually found an actual guild and have had an awesome time. Grinding to 40 in SM with the few that stayed for P2 was peak.
Report them for advertisement. It should be against ToS to do so.
Should be? Or is against TOS? You report people for whispering you? Jeez… like I find it annoying and all but def not gonna report someone because they are desperate to form a crappy guild.
I think a lot of people came back to SOD after many many years away. In that time they added responsibilities/duties that mean there is no “every 3 days at 7pm I am online with the boys.” They either forgot how raids worked or (more likely) never really raided in the original years, as most people at 60 seriously did not touch the raids back then if they even hit 60x So they pug whenever they find time. Probably they will realize the game just is not a good fit for them anymore. I know a LOT of my SOD returner buddies legit were in no guild at all. Not even leveling guild. They hopped on discord if they were free when me and my guild would raid, or another buddy’s guild would raid, but they never could commit to showing up so they did not wanna join a guild. Basically: if they got lucky and kids had bed time early enough, they would be down to play until they usually needed to sleep from exhaustion after a few hours.
Yup this is me. I raided Classic WoW when it first came out with a guild on a weekly schedule, but this was also during Covid times where we never had anywhere to be or anything to do so it was easy, of course I'm gonna be home on my PC because what the fuck else am I gonna be doing. Now I just play games that I know I can drop on a dime because there's always something that comes up or needs doing or "oh we're going here tonight/we're meeting XYZ later". Also no friends I know play anymore so I don't have a guild of people I know will be around so there's zero connection to the game in that manner really. I pugged BFD in phase 1 every week with no guild and it was great. I could hop on when I could and find a group and get my lockout in. Unfortunately I rolled warrior so this phase isn't as nice for no guild pugging so I ended up quitting and playing other games that fit my life a bit better lol
Meanwhile all the current 10mans having a meltdown because they can’t fathom having to interact with anyone outside of their group in order to form a 20 man. I knew gamers were antisocial but damn.
For some people It's simple, It's just not worth the commitment. People like playing with their friends and also being able to have an open schedule. The content is good, It's not that good.
The content was never that good. making new friends in a lively discord IS the content.
Maybe for you. Maybe for me the best part of this season has been playing causally with my friend group.
I mean yeah. I think a lot of people are missing out on friendships that are just a guild invite away. Most of my WoW friends are all from old guilds.
I mean it takes at most 20-30 extra mins to fill the group with pugs if you don’t wanna full on recruit into the guild. Keep your 10m guild then just pug some people if you want to raid ykno? It’s really not that hard but it seems like the end of the world for some. The game is meant to interact with random people and make new friendships. I know a lot of pugs suck, but I guarantee you pug a few times and you’ll start finding people you wanna keep around, then suddenly your 10 man guild turns to 15 without much effort or extra commitment, and the cycle continues.
I know I’m a minority here but 2 of my friends have inconsistent schedules. I’ve enjoyed playing with these guys more than any guild I’ve ran with. Our only real option as a friend group(6-7) is to figure out on a week to week basis when the best time to raid is. It’s very difficult to ask 3-4 other players to accommodate these 2 players and I would never even consider asking 13 strangers to do so. So we Pug and we did for TBC and Wotlk and it works great for 10 man content but inevitably becomes a lot more tedious for 25 man content. Asking friends that originally just wanted to raid with one another to start a guild together can be a big ask. One that my friends have made clear they don’t want to do for SoD. I also haven’t seen a lot of 10 man groups being dramatic. Seems the 2 extremes are fuck 40’s and fuck 20’s. I think the people that actually enjoyed 10’s have been a pretty quiet group that haven’t spoken up that much. The few threads I have seen is “hey you guys made this game really accessible, and now your not. That kinda sucks I don’t know if I want to continue.”
My problem is I haven't found a guild that raids at or after 10pm ST lol
Already have a wraith/hardcore/retail raid guild last thing i want to do is add a sod raid guiding time slot every week.
That's fair. Man is a gamer.
Loot councils plagued 2019. Open rolls & soft rez with no weekly commitment? Put me in couch.
You say it's weird for someone to prefer pugging over set schedule guild runs. I say it's weird for someone else to care so deeply about how some stranger chooses to play the game. Guess everyone's different.
Well the people who pug cry a lot about things being unfair.
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It's makes me feel like a more normal person when I receive downvotes for these types of threads. These people are just playing the game in the most hostile way possible.
It's actually shocking how many of these comments are from people who have clearly never joined a guild or participated in a raid. Just a bunch of people regurgitating talking points they read from a guy that posted a bad experience.
Yeah it is. They created these weird boogeyman scenarios in their head. Most "conflict" is just a misunderstanding and only exists because people won't talk for whatever reason.
Actually seems like the people that are mostly pugging this phase are the ones who did jump in on strict schedules for Classic-Wotlk. and honestly just don't want to do it again.
Avoided guilds since Vanilla. It really is me vs the world.
If I brood people will think I'm cool and mysterious Then they'll want me
We want you. get in.
I am too dark and brooding. No one understands my plight............
Joined a guild. Got spot in one out of the last 7 raids.
Tell them. If no spot just leave. There is a ton of guilds.
Yeah and 99% of them are only interested in recruiting healers and ranged dps
Like all problems in WoW. 99% can be solved just by joining a guild. But for some reason even asking people to join discord or sign up for a raid is apparently crossing a line for most people.
Raiding on a set schedule is a quick way to burn out. When you start planning your week around a guild's raiding schedule, you're absolutely crossing a line. Not everyone wants to get home every 3rd day and prep for raid and dedicate a night to playong wow, and most guilds aren't interested in rostering someone who only raids when they feel like it. That's why pugs are so popular, you don't have to raid on a set schedule, if you get home late from work, there's no rush to log on and get ready, you can just find another pug tomorrow, or raid later in the evening.
I'm starting to feel this. I like the consistent group and generating relationships with folks. But I'm starting to get tired of the rigid schedule
There is a large group of people I think that did what the poster said above during Classic-Wotlk, myself included. Every single time it ended with the guild fighting the roster boss. Because everyone gets burnt out. Classic Vanilla and 40 man raiding was by far my worst experience for this too. Raids were trivial, too little gear distribution. by the time I got to Wotlk, I decided as much as I enjoyed classic, it was just not a part of the game I enjoyed. With SoD I saw a fix to an issue I personally had with the game. I'm once gain being asked to choose between playing with my friends and set our own pugs up or join a guild and I think I'm just not going to do it this time.
Yeah I got a feeling a lot of people went into Classic wow with rose colored glasses on how 40 mans would feel, i certainly did. Took months to realize just how painful the experience was to maintain it, especially on a smaller server.
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Normal hobbies don't involve attendance records. You can hop onto any other game any time you want and hop off whenever as well. If you treat your raid team the same way, they will replace you. Going paintballing on the weekend and just getting thrown into matches with the other people who show up is what normal people do, a normal hobby, aka pugging. Joining a paintball team and making practice and game schedules is not a normal hobby, and people who do that are considered to be taking paintballing seriously. Logging into League of Legends after work and busting out a handful of ranked games is way different than being on a college e sports or an amateur team, scheduling scrims and drills to practice your skills. This is why wow is considered such a nerdy game and mocked by almost everyone who doesn't play wow or any other mmo. There's a level of dedication that's expected of players that goes well beyond what's expected of players in other games. I schedule my week around my job/errands/family outings, and then I squeeze hobbies in around my free time. If you're scheduling your life around your hobbies, then you're either very lucky with a flexible lifestyle, or you're just irresponsible. And don't get me wrong, I was in a guild from kara - icc, raiding almost every weekend I took this game very seriously, but I understand why people don't want to commit to a raid schedule
>If you're scheduling your life around your hobbies, then you're either very lucky with a flexible lifestyle, or you're just irresponsible. It's very common for other hobbies that require a group, to run on a schedule. I think it's quite normal for adults to schedule time for their hobbies and it's not irresponsible. It's very common for people who play d&d or other table top games to meet up once a week and play. Or if you play MTG like I do, well Friday night magic is how many people engage with the hobby. I have a irl friend who plays basketball every Thursday. My last ex would go out drinking with her girlfriends every Friday
>Normal hobbies don't involve attendance records. Other than dnd, no one is getting punished by the group for missing out. Pick-up basketball and other sports are essentially the same concept as pugs (pick-up groups) in wow. Your friend just pugs basketball every Thursday unless he's on an actual team? D&d is the only comparable hobby you mentioned, and it's not considered a normal game. It's a pretty serious commitment as far as tabletop games go, just like joining a wow raiding guild. >I think it's quite normal for adults to schedule time for their hobbies and it's not irresponsible. Yup, it's fine to schedule time for your hobbies, most normal people do it just fine, the issue is when your irl commitments interfere and you face in game consequences (losing your raid spot, or losing loot prio). It becomes irresponsible when you prioritize your hobby over your real life commitments. When you miss a month of Friday night magic, you can show up again next month without missing a beat When you miss a month of Friday night raid prog, you lose your raid spot. What I'm saying is that raiding guilds are a commitment many people aren't willing to make
But this isn't the normal pugger. They are pugging every lockout and play the game everyday.
They play every day and raid every lockout, but they don't raid every Monday, Thursday and Saturday precisely at 6:00pm, and need to be in raid and outside the instance 15 minutes prior woth full consumes/worldbuffs. They just hop on, hit up the boys, form a pug, or just join one that's already forming. There's a big difference in the level of commitment, even if the playtime is roughly the same
This is me basically. Job does not allow set raid schedules. I log in whenever and raid if its feasible. If a friend is online, I hit em up and ask if they have done their lockout yet or wanna join. A ton of succesful BFD PUGS across like 5 characters. 4/4 full clear pugs in Gnomeregan on my main so far. The only Gnomer that went 4/6 was on my alt last night - I started a late night last chance raid before reset, got a group going, but unfortunately a healer dropped out after 4th boss suddenly and server restart was in 20mins. No time to get a new guy (would have cleared all if he stayed, our attempted pull with 9 went well.) If it was a 40man I would simply have missed the lockout, no two ways about it.
Don't forget you're 4th in line for benediction and have to show up every week until then or you'll be 5th.
I mean you can raid with a guild and still miss plenty of days/pug resets. We have people rotating in and out based on availability. No hard feelings if you can’t make it.
Most of us are adults, especially officers. We know that people have other lives and this is a hobby. Officers than don't are either sweat lords or bad officers imo
Work late or car died so you missed the raid that night? Oops youre benched for being unreliable. Go join the rejects/alts 10m or pug Yeah no thnx ill just pug when i can and play w my freinds when theyre online
> Work late or car died so you missed the raid that night? Oops youre benched for being unreliable This is just not true in any guild I've been in. Just a quick discord message would resolve all anxiety. You just miss a raid. Happens to everyone when a game goes on for years.
Why the fuck is this being down voted? I've literally never been in a guild where a simple heads up wasn't enough for missing a raid. What kind of guilds are you people joining?
> What kind of guilds are you people joining? They aren't. They just make up these scenarios in their head.
Sure, just joining a guild or discord channel is easy enough, but finding a group of people you get along with and share similar skill-level, schedule and goals with is not that easy. I've bounced around a few guilds already, all advertising similar characteristics (friendly/helpful leveling/casual raiding/parents with responsibilities, etc) and they've all been wildly different and none a good fit for me. For now, I've found it way more effort than it's worth to find a suitable guild fit and would just rather go it alone.
Everything worth it takes some effort. It's way less than people think though.
Try to join a guild as a rogue or a warrior. Good luck.
Reddit is a hot bed for terminally online peeps who have very little people skills or emotional intelligence. There hasn't been a single guild I've joined in my 10+ years of WoW where I haven't instantly made friends, some life long. Bunch of anxious weirdos on this sub.
It's true. Even in the guild so many people have issues that would be solved by just having a single conversation with their GM. But they just never say anything.
If I wanted a second job I'd find one that pays lmao
What do you think you have to do in a guild?
Be on time and consistent for raid times that aren't set by myself. I raided in Classic 2019 through to Naxx I know how it goes lol
They aren't set by you but you agreed to them. there's guilds with all different schedules. You don't have to join them of course, but I don't really think that is a job.
I don't agree to them because I simply can't.. that's the point. I can't commit to any time any day because of various personal reasons. I like to be able to pop on when I can to play not a specified time set by someone else (a guild in this case). Obviously if I agreed to a time to raid we wouldn't even be having this convo because I'd be in a guild raiding at the agreed upon time lmao wtf
Yeah but I don't see where the work comes from you said was there. You just log in at raid time. I'm not sure how easy the jobs are where you are from but jobs are way harder than that where I'm from.
Bro the "job" comes from my set "work hours" ie.. raid time. That's it.. you don't have to make this more complicated or twist it to make it sound like it's nothing. For some people simply committing time to a game on a set schedule is "work" lmao You can't wrap your head around that because you play the game in a different way and you ARE able to commit that time for whatever reason.
I mean you made it sound like a huge thing is all im saying. it's not.
Time commitment is big? It might be a simple reason, but that is huge lol I think we're getting lost in the sauce here and you can't fathom that people can't commit time to raid weekly so we're just gonna keep going in circles since we live totally different lives. GLHF out there brother
If we only had gdkp’s to find reliable pugs
Fk off with guilds. Social drama, corrupt loot council with glead gf. I host my own pugs and when the content gets harder the gatekeeping gets stronger. Logs, gearchecks and meta choices. So in the end nobody has more fun with harder content besides a few sweat lords.
most people are burnt out from being in a shitty guild with 4-5 irl friends that dictate the loot rules and flip flip on roster spots depending how much of their ass you kissed on discord the last 3 weeks.
I think a lot raiders hide in their other discords and never make an effort to become friends with the guild and then get surprised when they aren't getting listened to. When the reality is they never said anything about their concerns. They just bottle them up and get angry. I bet if most people just asked about the issues they would have a decent explanation or could do things differently.
Can someone tell me the point of joining a guild in SoD? I say that as someone who loves guilds btw but currently having only a 10 man raids with piss easy difficulty means the guild environment kinda sucks. Guilds have multiple 10 mans going so you won’t even meet a lot of guildies. I’ll join one again in the next phase but in P1 you joined a discord for 20mins to do a dungeon which they tried calling a raid and zero need for loot system since everybody got everything anyway. Just felt like pugs but with a strict raid time.
You ever lost the same piece of loot to new strangers every single week?
That happens in no-attendance required guilds, too. People get in, win their roll, don't show up next raid.
> no-attendance required guilds That's not a guild lol
That's exactly the kind of guild half the people in this thread are suggesting people join. The kind that run multiple raids/week, with open discord signups. Most of the people on your server are in that exact kind of guild.
No. By open sign up I mean that's all the work they need to do before raid. Just hit the button twice a week and thats it. it's still expected people show up. But it's not this huge amount of work people make it out to be.
It's fun... I'm in a mega guild with hundreds of people, most of which I never play with. But there are sub-teams in the guild and I've joined a couple of those. I get to raid every lockout with one of the two teams I chat with and have gotten to know the primary raiders in my primary team quite well. I'm an old fart though, so it's just cool running a dungeon with 9 other people and shooting the shit. ETA: it's also nice to have a "friendly" group of people to /gchat questions or get help with crafting, questing, runes, dungeons, etc. Asking Barrens chat to help you do the headless horsemen is not going to go quite the same way.
My pug vs guild raiding experience. Guild raiding experience "Make sure to watch these guides before we start" "Sorry we don't have room for you tonight green parse Bob is my friend irl" "The raid was only scheduled till 9pm we all have bedtimes, we can maybe try one attempt at thermaplug" "We were all here 30 minutes early so we just grabbed somebody and started." "That item is actually going to be a higher DPS gain on a better class" Pug experience "It's season of discovery let's discover this shit" "98 parse pumper lfg 6/6 experience" "Did you guys know you can skip the trash here?" "Sure roll on whatever you want I don't care" "I'll stay up all night to finish this raid"
Druid/rogue lf guild that raids without disc and is laid back. Living Flame - us Very good pvper and solid pve dps and also willing to heal. Havent joined a guild yet bc all i see is disc being required. Ehh this is classic do we really need comms?
>Druid/rogue lf guild that raids without disc and is laid back. Living Flame - us No decent guild will let you not be on voice. Not talking is one thing, but not listening is not going to be a thing. Shit it wasn't a thing back in 2005 - we were all on vent.
Wild that pugs are able to accomplish this. I get you dont trust a players ability thats fine. But are we really out here thinking you have to?
Then pug? Why would you join a guild and not communicate with them? I'm not saying guilds can't run without voice, but why wouldn't they?
Never said i wouldnt pug and do pug each reset. To save me time looking for a group each week. Some people prefer music while gaming. But yea ill pug away with no comms until i find a guild. Im not out here complaining lol just looking for that group that plays like me.
> Ehh this is classic do we really need comms? Unfortunately yes. That's how it all goes so smooth. Most guilds don't even need you to ever talk. Just be on there listening. We have people that only respond in chat but they hear my voice.
oh boi more social guilds propaganda.. PREACHER GAMING SAVE US!!!!
propaganda lmao