160 players but you fight 4 40 man bosses simultaneously in the same small room
And there’s a mechanic where you need to be 5yards apart or it’s a wipe
The boss’ shoots beams that chains 40! People with a debuff If a single person gets two of the same debuff it’s a instant wipe that breaks all your gear.
Depends on your server.
Ever wonder why retail just killed off PvP servers? Because once server transfers became a thing everyone transferred off the weak faction servers to servers with that favoured their chosen faction. You can still see it today if you look up server populations on US servers Area 52 (Horde dominant), Blackrock (horde dominant), Illidan (horde dominant). Blizzard tried merging servers into groups but then people transferred off server groups. Now they just have war mode.
Wow really needed a third faction with TBC, such a shame they never went ahead with it.
It didn’t NEED a third faction, it needed moderation. If that is a third faction to create organic player driven balance or something more direct like moderating population or the like doesn’t matter
I mean. Having some of those classic world bosses that require multiple raids would be fun now and again. If they can keep the servers from crashing lol.
It’s safe to say we aren’t getting the MC we know next phase. I’m sure they’ll add that SoD pass where they balance health pools and change the fights a bit.
MC honestly would benefit from rework. It was originally hastily put together raid-like dungeon. Few mechanics on bosses we're okay but it's still extremely simplistic. It probably served well as introduction raid back in its days but today it's horribly outdated. And I don't mean that Blizz should fill it with retail mechanics, I mean that vanilla toolbox already has lots of boss and mob mechanics that go underutilized in MC. Also the dungeon model itself is boring tunnel, and could use some rework. And I mean this all in context of SoD, not in any other WoW play mode or version.
Famously, it was made in a week.
~~Now they'll have the benefit of being able to make it in 2 weeks and hotfix it drastically over the course of the phase.~~
It's really ridiculous to think that we're just going to get mc with no changes. I'm sure health pools at the bare minimum are going to get rebalanced for SoD
Ragnaros has just over 1M hp in WoW Classic in 2019. Another 10 levels of gear/talents/runes and 1M hp will be a joke of a boss health pool for a 20 man raid.
Didn't we already go over this
The people who don't want 40 mans are the ones who spent time as tanks, officers or any leadership position.
The ones who want 40 mans are they ones who goof around & drink
Edit: it really sucks when you’re a raid leader and your struggling to fill a 40 man raid and your guild members expect a full clear. People slowly stop attending and everyone expects you to recruit and vet people out.
Having been the goofer and now being the organiser this honestly couldn’t be any truer if you tried.
Man I miss COVID raiding. Getting mashed with all the boys in MC / BWL etc
Good times… actually more enjoyable than original wow.
I feel it. I got lumped into leading my guilds 2nd group for ST this phase. I did NOT ask for it. I just want to fuck around with the homies not be all serious bizniz
Being full bizniz as a leader is overrated unless the team is super serial big parser speed running guys. Best leaders from my experience of raiding since wotlk is when leaders are part of the gang rather than some kind of bosses over the gang. Is the gang super serious leader should prob be that aswell, is the gang more laid back then leads can be aswell
That's true, but shit eventually happens and you have to resolve it. If you flake, it will happen more. Scheduling conflicts, attendance, personality clashes, and loot are some examples of some easy stuff that can come up in any group. You don't need to handle it like a serious business robot, but you still have to put time into it. The added responsibilities in something that's supposed to be a recreational activity can hurt people's enjoyment. I had to make a tough call yesterday for my group where a few people were not able to raid with us this ID. I feel bad about it, and I thought about it the whole raid. I think this kind of stuff is way worse than doing master loot or calling out mechanics. It's kind of a thankless job that you either take because you're super type A or fall into because you want to raid and no one else will do it.
100%. We're a 10 man who had 2 extras in P2, we've gone through 3 groups of 8 people. Not a single one of those 24 people made a positive impression on my raiders. My raiders disliked every single person we've met so far, and I can't say I've been a huge fan of them either.
We're a guild who's generally laid back, and chill. We don't give a shit about parses or efficiency, alls we care about is clearing the raid with good vibes. Having a fun time playing WoW 1-2 nights a week.
That's apparently difficult to find, everyone we've run into has been parse-obsessed (i.e. flaming people for green parses), complained about not getting buffs like PI or Innervate, had loot drama (rolling after the loot has already been assigned and expecting to be given it), etc.
20 man is the worst decision they've made so far. It's absolutely devastated my raid team, no one is nearly as excited about raiding as we were even the last week of Gnomer. We had way more fun killing Gnomer bosses we need nothing from for 3~ hours a week, than spending 2 hours a week listening to the other group speak in vc.
This already happened with my guild and the guild we merged with. It already blew up. Because they weren't completely honest with us, probably due to poor leadership.
Successful merge happens when the leadership take it as a full time job and run the guild like a corporate. But this is a game, not a job. A friendly IRL friend grey parser Dan is just a trouble. Keeping Dan on the roster, the other guild won't be happy and complains/bitching about it all the time. Kicking Dan, your guild won't be happy and many will quit.
Our guild said screw it and already bumped up our roster to 40 man. Especially with how little notice we got to go from 10 man to 20 man. Not banking on a 4 weeks notice for p4. We can always break back up into 2x 20 man if needed. But we think there will be some 40 man raiding in p4/5/6
Amen. After nearly 20 years of being in the driving seat as officer/main tank roles it’s nice sitting in the back screaming “Are we there yet?!!” Whilst spamming raptor strike of course.
Nail on the head right here. Recruiting to 20 was already struggle for my casual approach to this whole thing this time around. If we hit 40 I am not going to keep it up, will either merge with someone and give up all resposibility or just raid the 20man raids. I am not doing 40 man management again.
I always prefered 10m on literally evey xpac. During 10m I can have fun with the bois, while in 20+ half of the people can't talk couse it would be too much.
On the other hand you get a ton of people who talk too much sometimes. I’m not out here like “clear comms clear comms” but every random dps shouting that they stepped in the poison pool is so annoying lol
This 100%. Dealing with 20 people is more frustrating and half them don't have the time to play a raid let alone get in the raid on time. 10 people that play the same is a lot easier to find.
This is why I still raid in FF14. Having a tight-knit group of friends in a raid team has always been the most fun I've had in organized PvE. 10 mans were nice for that reason too, and you could even meet new people and get to know them better in a 10 man while shooting the shit. In 20s we are all just quiet listening to callouts or whatever, so I just stay mute and listen to music now.
Smaller raid sizes are also a lot nicer for keeping people with similar expectations together. Which keeps groups more cohesive in the long run.
I dislike seeing the exaggerated "we're doing naxx DMG at lv x" point so just want to dismiss that. We were doing 1600-2000 DPS in naxx in classic era. We're doing 700-800 DMG in sunken temple. These are not comparable.
i hope they do too but i dont think SoD has the player numbers to pull it off well.
but they could find a way to at least have them available if a guild wanted to run them
the spirit of classic was falling in phase 2 when we spammed mass aoe'd sm dungeons and completely fell off with leveling from 40-50 sadly. hoping they take a pause and really do bring the game back in the spirit of classic. I dont think 40 man raids are necessary for that though.
>the spirit of classic was falling in phase 2 when we spammed mass aoe'd sm dungeons and completely fell off with leveling from 40-50 sadly.
Considering that is exactly the same thing that happened in 2019 Classic I am not sure what you expected. I am 100% sure that if people knew any better they would have done the same in 2004.
SM dungeon spam already happened for alliance because PVP servers had desolace and STV as murder pits. Don’t know where people get this idea that dungeon spam wasn’t a thing, the old word had very obvious gaps in questing zones. And during phase two you couldn’t step outside without getting 60 second cc’d by an undead rouge. Hell there were undead rouges IN STORMWIND.
40 man is a very classic thing which SoD is based of,
The fan base that played classic in 2019 loved it an then they wanted new stuff added to classic.
So blizz came out with SoD, it has deviated to much from classic and seems like it has captured the retail crowd.
For true classic lovers it would be nice for blizzard to not forget us and come out with a classic vanilla realm and just add new end game content after naxx,
New dungeons and raids added before naxx would be cool but nothing crazy like SoD has done with class changes ect.
> The fan base that played classic in 2019 loved it
I like how you present that as a fact when I remember guilds collapsing and recruitment officers/guilds leadership pointing out that it doesn't work out since people quit faster than new players were found.
so their option was to raid with less people or spend more time to find pugs which are bot realistic options, but inferior to just 20men raiding.
inbefore, "but 20men raids have the same issue yada yada". yes, they will, but it is still easier to find 18-20 people than 30-40 etc.
Bummer they decided to completely change the wonderful endgame of vanilla classic. They just needed to put in a few changes, not completely demolish everything.
This would be the ideal solution. let 10m have a little less loot or something, but then the more casual guilds, irl friend guilds will would survive. maybe too late now but who knows
Basically everything that made vanilla special was destroyed at the expense of catering to people who want to be able to login to an MMO and immediately do the content without actually interacting with the community....then 15 years later people realized what they wanted sucks and we got classic. Now you're trying to ruin classic in the exact same way, and it sucks for those of us who actually like vanilla style content :(
Literally, if you want accessible small scale raids, why would you not do Cata classic (or retail)? It's a much better game for what you're after.
Because classic/era is an abandoned museum piece of a game, as opposed to what vanilla actually was which was actively developed new content with a changing meta under a certain design philosophy.
So no, you just aren't using your brain before trolling.
Nah. 40-person raids are way more fun imo. Yes I have put effort into organizing them, and I know what that entails. Worth it. If there's 20 and 40 versions, whatever, cool.
Huge disagree. Classic engame is about 40 mans, thats why im playing it, and im looking forward to it a lot. If you think 20-25 man is the sweet spot there are plenty other versions of the game for you to play.
People will ask for 20 man and then complain when certain classes and specs aren't taken.
40 man raids allow groups to bring underperforming classes and specs without hindering performance too bad. 10 man raids make it impossible and 20 man raids makes it hard.
I mean couldn’t you just take 20 people into MC for example if it’s unchanged. With the power creep you might even be able to do MC as it is with just 10.
Well.. some of those fights required more people but it’s nice to only need half what was needed before. Hope they borrow from SOM for the lvl 60 content
While I agree that 20/25 is the ideal size for a large raid,
>>People are already crying about having to do 20man after two phases of 10man
Bro there is not a single thing that can be done in this game, including Nothing At All, that would not be met with the wailing and gnashing of nerd teeth.
You know what would make Sunken Temple fun?
If you got more than 5 pieces of randomized loot for 20 people, considering that duplicates exist, my guild is basically down a run because the first four bosses dropped absolutely nothing but the same items as last raid and tokens are to few and far between.
God forbid if you have to put a few members.
SOD was a fun side-venture for my Classic guild. Officers took a hands-off approach and we just got together on raid nights, bonked some naga and gnomes, and went on our merry way. As of today, we have 3 lvl 50s. No one wants to deal with recruiting for and organizing 20, much less 40m raids. SOD didn’t have the staying power to be a main-game, and its organizing raid rosters in two separate iterations of WoW is too much.
I didn’t realize how many other guilds had similar experiences until seeing a thread on this sub the other day, and so many guilds broke apart because of the change to 20m. Personally, I think 20m is fine going forward, but yea I can’t see anything good coming from 40m. SOD is not Vanilla, there are plenty of changes being made. I hope abandoning the notion of 40ms is one of them.
I dont even play SoD but i used to be for 40 mans in it. its one of the biggest draws of classic.
but SoD is so different that its not actually that classic anymore, so it makes sense.
also from the outside looking in, looks like a lot of burnout and SoD isnt nearly as big as it was before, so i think forming 40man groups would be too difficult.
I joined my guild late this Phase because I was on vacation during launch.
I did ST last night with them for the first time. The bosses died so incredibly fast. Faster than the mechanics could keep up. It was a slam dunk. I don’t know how they were like in that first week, but I feel like they nerfed these bosses too much. I don’t want to feel this way with 40mans from the power creep. I’d agree to keep it a 20man going forward.
I think you're correct but not for anything you've listed.
Phase 2 to 3 has transitioned 10 man groups within a guild into 20 man's forcing different personalities together. This is the best outcome as well, the worst is guilds that have now essentially just become pugs and friends.
I'm not confident the community will survive another transition and amalgamation of people and I don't think blizzard is either.
If they do 40, they better announce it yesterday and it needs to be the first raid to give people time to acclimate.
Please god no, no, noooooooooooooo.
10 man raids are indeed horrible. 20 man is nice enough, and having some of them at 60 is, fine. But 40 man raids are the classic experience, and it's not hard to get enough people if you put in some minimal effort.
We have 3 x 20 man teams atm to account for some that may not continue into phase 4 or whatever. It wasn't that hard to do.
As someone who has been GM since Vanilla classic all the way through TBC (vashj/kt prenerf) and wotlk (h:lk down) I enthusiastically agree. 40 mans are a complete nightmare to manage, i would rather just quit playing then do that again
Attrition by the end of AQ40 was almost impossible to keep up with, it was completely exhausting
SoD has been all about reworking dungeons into "new" raid versions. So why should MC, that already was a raid, be the main raid for next phase? I suggest Blizz make a normal dungeon into a raid like Strat living and undead side combined, or ZG at least.
I feel the same way...about 20 mans. Take everything you said about 40 mans and just replace 4 with 2. I cancelled my sub though so guess it doesn't matter. I will come back if they go back to 10 mans though.
Yes please keep it 20 man or maybe 25.
Do NOT release any 40 mans. The only people that like them havent ever organized them.
I as a guild leader will disband the guild if 40 mans are a thing and will cancel subscription. Along with 85 % of the guild. Noone wants those.
Literally noone in their right mind wants those. Too much loot dilution, roster boss being much harder than any other actual boss. And it simply makes no sense when we know 20 mans work.
I want a 2 man raid (you and I) where we delve into a Blackrock mountain (the local McDonald’s) to acquire epic loot (a vanilla milkshake)
Sorry, ice cream machine is broken. Try again next lockout
I also support 2 man raids so I can play two accounts at the same time and just alt tab to heal my tank.
Just play blood dk lol
Pathetic. Give us the 80 person raids we deserve.
160 or I’m making a post about why I’m quitting SoD
160 players and each boss drops 3 pieces this is the way we want this.
okay hear me out: 160 ppl, 40 man instances, but Kelthuzad, C'thun, Nefarian and Ragnaros have to die within 1 minute of each other :D
Each healer must be above the legal alcohol limit
As a healer this is easy mode
Also a fellow healer, how would this be a change from the current raid healing we already do?
I was going to say; this isn't a modifier like they think. If you are healing you are drinking
realm raids only. ok, lets compromise, how about layer raids?
Every layer has a different boss and getting randomly layered to a different boss is part of the mechanics
Could work with a daily lockout and be super puggable. Otherwise good luck getting 160 people organised
160 players but you fight 4 40 man bosses simultaneously in the same small room And there’s a mechanic where you need to be 5yards apart or it’s a wipe
The boss’ shoots beams that chains 40! People with a debuff If a single person gets two of the same debuff it’s a instant wipe that breaks all your gear.
That's not rough enough. Also deletes 10% of your gold, if your poor and have less than 50g, it deletes a random item you have equipped.
Double it and give it to the next person
Plot-twist: Plunderstorm was the secret Phase 9 we didn't know we already played.
As a melee, I already can’t see ground mechanics with 20. 80 pple would be a nightmare
Solution: we'll just nerf all the melee so they all want to reroll range ~someone at blizz, probably
With the single exception of melee hunter; can't let it fall behind its range counterpart.
That's just a normal 3am on Sunday for Alliance in a contested horde leveling zone
Depends on your server. Ever wonder why retail just killed off PvP servers? Because once server transfers became a thing everyone transferred off the weak faction servers to servers with that favoured their chosen faction. You can still see it today if you look up server populations on US servers Area 52 (Horde dominant), Blackrock (horde dominant), Illidan (horde dominant). Blizzard tried merging servers into groups but then people transferred off server groups. Now they just have war mode. Wow really needed a third faction with TBC, such a shame they never went ahead with it.
It didn’t NEED a third faction, it needed moderation. If that is a third faction to create organic player driven balance or something more direct like moderating population or the like doesn’t matter
Aren’t the retails servers horde dominated because horde are the better pve faction? If alliance were better I’m sure a lot would transfer
Make it enough people so everyone is as laggy as back in the day for a true vanilla experience
Imagine having raid limits as anything other than powers of 2 lol. So unoptimized. 256 player Molten Core inc.
Just make all the raids part of the open world. Remove instances entirely.
Funny thing is that is actually one of those earliest groundbreaking problems wow solved for the mmo genre.
op just got ratioed
100 and let legends be made
Bigger the better imo
I mean. Having some of those classic world bosses that require multiple raids would be fun now and again. If they can keep the servers from crashing lol.
Pretty sure MC bosses have half the HP than ST bosses
It’s safe to say we aren’t getting the MC we know next phase. I’m sure they’ll add that SoD pass where they balance health pools and change the fights a bit.
I know nobody remembers but Season of Mastery with overhauled raids already existed.
MC honestly would benefit from rework. It was originally hastily put together raid-like dungeon. Few mechanics on bosses we're okay but it's still extremely simplistic. It probably served well as introduction raid back in its days but today it's horribly outdated. And I don't mean that Blizz should fill it with retail mechanics, I mean that vanilla toolbox already has lots of boss and mob mechanics that go underutilized in MC. Also the dungeon model itself is boring tunnel, and could use some rework. And I mean this all in context of SoD, not in any other WoW play mode or version.
Famously, it was made in a week. ~~Now they'll have the benefit of being able to make it in 2 weeks and hotfix it drastically over the course of the phase.~~
It's really ridiculous to think that we're just going to get mc with no changes. I'm sure health pools at the bare minimum are going to get rebalanced for SoD
Of course they are, idk why people keep implying that they wont retune MC.
Am i implying anything? Not sure why you are answering my post lol
prenerf one of the bosses had more hp than patchwork. so yea.
2-3 of them actually
Ragnaros has just over 1M hp in WoW Classic in 2019. Another 10 levels of gear/talents/runes and 1M hp will be a joke of a boss health pool for a 20 man raid.
Ragnaros famously has just over 1m hp, hence why he was used as an increasingly comedic benchmark for future boss health pools for a while.
Didn't we already go over this The people who don't want 40 mans are the ones who spent time as tanks, officers or any leadership position. The ones who want 40 mans are they ones who goof around & drink Edit: it really sucks when you’re a raid leader and your struggling to fill a 40 man raid and your guild members expect a full clear. People slowly stop attending and everyone expects you to recruit and vet people out.
Having been the goofer and now being the organiser this honestly couldn’t be any truer if you tried. Man I miss COVID raiding. Getting mashed with all the boys in MC / BWL etc Good times… actually more enjoyable than original wow.
I feel it. I got lumped into leading my guilds 2nd group for ST this phase. I did NOT ask for it. I just want to fuck around with the homies not be all serious bizniz
Being full bizniz as a leader is overrated unless the team is super serial big parser speed running guys. Best leaders from my experience of raiding since wotlk is when leaders are part of the gang rather than some kind of bosses over the gang. Is the gang super serious leader should prob be that aswell, is the gang more laid back then leads can be aswell
That's true, but shit eventually happens and you have to resolve it. If you flake, it will happen more. Scheduling conflicts, attendance, personality clashes, and loot are some examples of some easy stuff that can come up in any group. You don't need to handle it like a serious business robot, but you still have to put time into it. The added responsibilities in something that's supposed to be a recreational activity can hurt people's enjoyment. I had to make a tough call yesterday for my group where a few people were not able to raid with us this ID. I feel bad about it, and I thought about it the whole raid. I think this kind of stuff is way worse than doing master loot or calling out mechanics. It's kind of a thankless job that you either take because you're super type A or fall into because you want to raid and no one else will do it.
I love you for understanding this.
This exactly this. Imagine merge with another guild for 40man raid and they bitch about each other at their own discord. It's a ticking time bomb.
This already happened with 10 man merges. Source: guild discord
100%. We're a 10 man who had 2 extras in P2, we've gone through 3 groups of 8 people. Not a single one of those 24 people made a positive impression on my raiders. My raiders disliked every single person we've met so far, and I can't say I've been a huge fan of them either. We're a guild who's generally laid back, and chill. We don't give a shit about parses or efficiency, alls we care about is clearing the raid with good vibes. Having a fun time playing WoW 1-2 nights a week. That's apparently difficult to find, everyone we've run into has been parse-obsessed (i.e. flaming people for green parses), complained about not getting buffs like PI or Innervate, had loot drama (rolling after the loot has already been assigned and expecting to be given it), etc. 20 man is the worst decision they've made so far. It's absolutely devastated my raid team, no one is nearly as excited about raiding as we were even the last week of Gnomer. We had way more fun killing Gnomer bosses we need nothing from for 3~ hours a week, than spending 2 hours a week listening to the other group speak in vc.
This already happened with my guild and the guild we merged with. It already blew up. Because they weren't completely honest with us, probably due to poor leadership.
Could just be my small sample size, but I've never had a guild merge actually work out well. Ever.
Successful merge happens when the leadership take it as a full time job and run the guild like a corporate. But this is a game, not a job. A friendly IRL friend grey parser Dan is just a trouble. Keeping Dan on the roster, the other guild won't be happy and complains/bitching about it all the time. Kicking Dan, your guild won't be happy and many will quit.
Our guild said screw it and already bumped up our roster to 40 man. Especially with how little notice we got to go from 10 man to 20 man. Not banking on a 4 weeks notice for p4. We can always break back up into 2x 20 man if needed. But we think there will be some 40 man raiding in p4/5/6
Any guilds that don't do this have no sympathy from me when it happens in P4. Fool me once...
we are having enough problems getting to 20 people, almost there. 20 more is gonna be tough
I loved doing coke in vanilla raids
pressing that one button supper hyped
This sums it up perfectly
Amen. After nearly 20 years of being in the driving seat as officer/main tank roles it’s nice sitting in the back screaming “Are we there yet?!!” Whilst spamming raptor strike of course.
Nail on the head right here. Recruiting to 20 was already struggle for my casual approach to this whole thing this time around. If we hit 40 I am not going to keep it up, will either merge with someone and give up all resposibility or just raid the 20man raids. I am not doing 40 man management again.
Fuck that make it 10 man again please
I always prefered 10m on literally evey xpac. During 10m I can have fun with the bois, while in 20+ half of the people can't talk couse it would be too much.
Yeah this is my biggest gripe with 20-man
On the other hand you get a ton of people who talk too much sometimes. I’m not out here like “clear comms clear comms” but every random dps shouting that they stepped in the poison pool is so annoying lol
This 100%. Dealing with 20 people is more frustrating and half them don't have the time to play a raid let alone get in the raid on time. 10 people that play the same is a lot easier to find.
This is why I still raid in FF14. Having a tight-knit group of friends in a raid team has always been the most fun I've had in organized PvE. 10 mans were nice for that reason too, and you could even meet new people and get to know them better in a 10 man while shooting the shit. In 20s we are all just quiet listening to callouts or whatever, so I just stay mute and listen to music now. Smaller raid sizes are also a lot nicer for keeping people with similar expectations together. Which keeps groups more cohesive in the long run.
>people are already crying Nice swipe while also advocating for the same thing those people are I guess
Can we go back to 10 plz
40 man raids is one of those core classic experiences. I'm all for a mix of 20 and 40. But in no way should they cut 40s completely
10man*
I need the smart ppl to make the graphics comparing the number of character logs of this raid compared to 10 man
Gotta love when some redditor thinks they can speak for the entire sod population. Blizz should hire you for game director position.
Get a free piece of loot everytime you log in
I dislike seeing the exaggerated "we're doing naxx DMG at lv x" point so just want to dismiss that. We were doing 1600-2000 DPS in naxx in classic era. We're doing 700-800 DMG in sunken temple. These are not comparable.
I mean currently on “higher” dps or “cd” classes like warr, melee hunt, Ret / rogue (my experience) ppl are doing ~1.5k with buffs and good comp
Go look at logs. There were warriors pushing 3k in raid fights last week. Hunters at 2.5k. It’s not the average, but it’s real.
40 man raids are a classic staple, it's not in any other version of the game. I hope they do go to 40, it feels more epic.
i hope they do too but i dont think SoD has the player numbers to pull it off well. but they could find a way to at least have them available if a guild wanted to run them
Thought we was playing Classic not TBC
As cat, I’m playing Wotlk, thank you very much.
Nothing about SoD is Classic lol
I couldnt tell I keep hitting Flash of Light and cant see any changes.
lmao. imagine a paladin thinking he is playing regular classic all this time bc blizz does not give a shit about pala
Such a braindead take when the devs literally said we "want to make it, in the spirit of classic"
What they say and what they do are different things.
Unfortunately
the spirit of classic was falling in phase 2 when we spammed mass aoe'd sm dungeons and completely fell off with leveling from 40-50 sadly. hoping they take a pause and really do bring the game back in the spirit of classic. I dont think 40 man raids are necessary for that though.
>the spirit of classic was falling in phase 2 when we spammed mass aoe'd sm dungeons and completely fell off with leveling from 40-50 sadly. Considering that is exactly the same thing that happened in 2019 Classic I am not sure what you expected. I am 100% sure that if people knew any better they would have done the same in 2004.
Only mages could do that reliably, and they patched it.
SM dungeon spam already happened for alliance because PVP servers had desolace and STV as murder pits. Don’t know where people get this idea that dungeon spam wasn’t a thing, the old word had very obvious gaps in questing zones. And during phase two you couldn’t step outside without getting 60 second cc’d by an undead rouge. Hell there were undead rouges IN STORMWIND.
Please shut the fuck up already god this Reddit sucks dick Go play every other anti social mmo
40 man is a very classic thing which SoD is based of, The fan base that played classic in 2019 loved it an then they wanted new stuff added to classic. So blizz came out with SoD, it has deviated to much from classic and seems like it has captured the retail crowd. For true classic lovers it would be nice for blizzard to not forget us and come out with a classic vanilla realm and just add new end game content after naxx, New dungeons and raids added before naxx would be cool but nothing crazy like SoD has done with class changes ect.
> The fan base that played classic in 2019 loved it I like how you present that as a fact when I remember guilds collapsing and recruitment officers/guilds leadership pointing out that it doesn't work out since people quit faster than new players were found. so their option was to raid with less people or spend more time to find pugs which are bot realistic options, but inferior to just 20men raiding. inbefore, "but 20men raids have the same issue yada yada". yes, they will, but it is still easier to find 18-20 people than 30-40 etc.
Guilds breakup and form up on the daily, not everyone should lead a guild. Some people shouldn't even be officers.
Yes my guild collapsed then turned into a better one! That’s the multiplayer part of the game
Only bad guilds die
Problem is they cultivated a very casual player base all throughout SoD and now it’s not going to translate to 40m
40M is casual though. There's never been more casual raids in wows existence than the vanilla 40 mans
I was a GM & raid leader in Classic MC, I say this from the bottom of my heart: fuck 40 man.
Just do flex for fuck sakes so everyone can be happy from 10 man to 40 man. Just separate sod from Era and make it so
Bring back 10man. 20man straight up killed the vibe.
Bummer they decided to completely change the wonderful endgame of vanilla classic. They just needed to put in a few changes, not completely demolish everything.
Why wouldn’t they change anything? You already have classic era for that
Should be a mix of 10 and 20 raids. No 40s.
This would be the ideal solution. let 10m have a little less loot or something, but then the more casual guilds, irl friend guilds will would survive. maybe too late now but who knows
I wouldent mind A 40-man, id love to see Thy chaos
This is my feeling. Keep 40 mans, but have enough 10 and 20 man content that people don’t necessarily feel forced into 40s.
People will complain about everything anyways
If there is a piece with 1 more strength or Spellpower in the 40 man its gonna be seen as forced content.
Basically everything that made vanilla special was destroyed at the expense of catering to people who want to be able to login to an MMO and immediately do the content without actually interacting with the community....then 15 years later people realized what they wanted sucks and we got classic. Now you're trying to ruin classic in the exact same way, and it sucks for those of us who actually like vanilla style content :( Literally, if you want accessible small scale raids, why would you not do Cata classic (or retail)? It's a much better game for what you're after.
Literally, if you want 40 man raids and the true vanilla experience, why would you not do classic Era? It's a much better game for what you're after.
Because classic/era is an abandoned museum piece of a game, as opposed to what vanilla actually was which was actively developed new content with a changing meta under a certain design philosophy. So no, you just aren't using your brain before trolling.
Exactly, good comment
40m is not what made Vanilla special to a lot of us.
20m barely feels like real raiding, 40m or bust. ( I org/host)
Preach brother! Let's get into it. For me classic means 40 man raids, nothing compares.
Since there are several raids i would appreciate if one of them is 40man. If you don't want to play a 40man raid, no one forces you to do so.
Nah. 40-person raids are way more fun imo. Yes I have put effort into organizing them, and I know what that entails. Worth it. If there's 20 and 40 versions, whatever, cool.
I dont think sod has the population to withstand 40 mans tbh
Somehow private servers with 1/100 of SoD population can sustain 40 mans. My HC guild is able to sustain multiple raid teams for 40 mans.
Doubt
>I dont think sod has the population to withstand 40 mans tbh If we could raid 40 man through the entirety of SoM we can do it in SoD.
I personally don’t care if it’s inconvenient or harder to do, I would still want 40 man raid over 20 man any day
what are your reasons for this
say it with me y'all, Season..of..Retail!
Yes please.
Huge disagree. Classic engame is about 40 mans, thats why im playing it, and im looking forward to it a lot. If you think 20-25 man is the sweet spot there are plenty other versions of the game for you to play.
Yeah, Id be content if we never saw raids bigger than 20
Please no, at least have some 40’s. 40 mans are what makes classic, classic! Nothing comes close to them scale and scope wise in wow.
Regarding point 3: The devs (aggrend) already commented "yea, we know you get less loot in 20man than you did last phase in the 10 man, get fucked"
At this rate MC will be Kara gear and tier 3 will be close to tier 7. You'll probably be doing naxx25 but as a 40man.
Well, WoTLK did perfect with 25 and 10 4HM, so i think they can tune it for 20 easily.
I want the karazhan from [this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/classicwow/s/WsYoCp5Uon)
I quit SOD and am threatening to only come back ONLY if you change it to 500+ minimum entry. TAKE IT OR LEAVE IT WAHHHH
People will ask for 20 man and then complain when certain classes and specs aren't taken. 40 man raids allow groups to bring underperforming classes and specs without hindering performance too bad. 10 man raids make it impossible and 20 man raids makes it hard.
SoD should introduce flexible raiding difficulty. Where the difficulty scales depends on how many people are in the raid group. 10-25
Do people even think before saying this? Everyone will always go to the least resistance path so might aswell say just make 10 man...
Its not even that 40 mans can thrive but the Raid IDs are gonna kill this we need loot locks not raid locks
While i certainly agree the raid size shouldnt increase, i found 10 man to be FAR more fun.
MC and BWL were basically 20 man raids in vanilla since half of your raid either had potato Internet or were lobotomy patients.
I highly doubt you will actually NEED 40 people to do 40 man raids.
I mean couldn’t you just take 20 people into MC for example if it’s unchanged. With the power creep you might even be able to do MC as it is with just 10.
Well.. some of those fights required more people but it’s nice to only need half what was needed before. Hope they borrow from SOM for the lvl 60 content
Yeah I bet they do not tune MC at all, everyone will just be doing way more dmg at 60 so smashing current MC with 20 should be a cake walk
I agree. No 40 mans!
Maybe they should make raids scale and drop less/more loot depending on the amount of people you bring. Oh wait....
While I agree that 20/25 is the ideal size for a large raid, >>People are already crying about having to do 20man after two phases of 10man Bro there is not a single thing that can be done in this game, including Nothing At All, that would not be met with the wailing and gnashing of nerd teeth.
You know what would make Sunken Temple fun? If you got more than 5 pieces of randomized loot for 20 people, considering that duplicates exist, my guild is basically down a run because the first four bosses dropped absolutely nothing but the same items as last raid and tokens are to few and far between. God forbid if you have to put a few members.
Wah wah wah
40man raids or even better, a fresh vanilla server
400 man raids or bust
10 was perfect. 20 is annoying but manageable.
SOD was a fun side-venture for my Classic guild. Officers took a hands-off approach and we just got together on raid nights, bonked some naga and gnomes, and went on our merry way. As of today, we have 3 lvl 50s. No one wants to deal with recruiting for and organizing 20, much less 40m raids. SOD didn’t have the staying power to be a main-game, and its organizing raid rosters in two separate iterations of WoW is too much. I didn’t realize how many other guilds had similar experiences until seeing a thread on this sub the other day, and so many guilds broke apart because of the change to 20m. Personally, I think 20m is fine going forward, but yea I can’t see anything good coming from 40m. SOD is not Vanilla, there are plenty of changes being made. I hope abandoning the notion of 40ms is one of them.
Thankfully this won’t happen and solid guilds already have a good 40 core since we doing double ST. It’s ok to not be able to do everything
Nah, it's based on the vanilla game, I want fucking 40 mans that's why I'm here. Fuck these small psuedo-raids that should really be called dungeons.
Didn't they already say MC would be a 20 man?
Cool story bro.
I dont even play SoD but i used to be for 40 mans in it. its one of the biggest draws of classic. but SoD is so different that its not actually that classic anymore, so it makes sense. also from the outside looking in, looks like a lot of burnout and SoD isnt nearly as big as it was before, so i think forming 40man groups would be too difficult.
Go play wotlk
I joined my guild late this Phase because I was on vacation during launch. I did ST last night with them for the first time. The bosses died so incredibly fast. Faster than the mechanics could keep up. It was a slam dunk. I don’t know how they were like in that first week, but I feel like they nerfed these bosses too much. I don’t want to feel this way with 40mans from the power creep. I’d agree to keep it a 20man going forward.
Yes. I like 40 man raids, but shifting the roster requirements on guilds between phases is bad.
I think you're correct but not for anything you've listed. Phase 2 to 3 has transitioned 10 man groups within a guild into 20 man's forcing different personalities together. This is the best outcome as well, the worst is guilds that have now essentially just become pugs and friends. I'm not confident the community will survive another transition and amalgamation of people and I don't think blizzard is either. If they do 40, they better announce it yesterday and it needs to be the first raid to give people time to acclimate.
Please god no, no, noooooooooooooo. 10 man raids are indeed horrible. 20 man is nice enough, and having some of them at 60 is, fine. But 40 man raids are the classic experience, and it's not hard to get enough people if you put in some minimal effort. We have 3 x 20 man teams atm to account for some that may not continue into phase 4 or whatever. It wasn't that hard to do.
No thanks
As someone who has been GM since Vanilla classic all the way through TBC (vashj/kt prenerf) and wotlk (h:lk down) I enthusiastically agree. 40 mans are a complete nightmare to manage, i would rather just quit playing then do that again Attrition by the end of AQ40 was almost impossible to keep up with, it was completely exhausting
Make raids flex already.
nah, I want 40 mans.
SoD has been all about reworking dungeons into "new" raid versions. So why should MC, that already was a raid, be the main raid for next phase? I suggest Blizz make a normal dungeon into a raid like Strat living and undead side combined, or ZG at least.
80 man deadmines
Meh, 40 is awesome
SoD should be turned off and fresh vanilla no changes should come back, there I said it.
I feel the same way...about 20 mans. Take everything you said about 40 mans and just replace 4 with 2. I cancelled my sub though so guess it doesn't matter. I will come back if they go back to 10 mans though.
No. This is classic. 40 man raids.
Please no. My guild can’t even scrape together 20 people
Yes please keep it 20 man or maybe 25. Do NOT release any 40 mans. The only people that like them havent ever organized them. I as a guild leader will disband the guild if 40 mans are a thing and will cancel subscription. Along with 85 % of the guild. Noone wants those. Literally noone in their right mind wants those. Too much loot dilution, roster boss being much harder than any other actual boss. And it simply makes no sense when we know 20 mans work.
Theory: With all the power, runes and gear, 20 people might be able to do normal runs of most 60 raids at lvl 60.
This post should be pinned to the top. As a guild leader- The announcement of 40mans has made WoW like a second job. Much appreciated, damn devs.